EntityNea
EntityNea
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@cogsturning said:
It still says 20% in the description. Maybe a bug?
Must have been a bug, or a temporary screw-up?
Mine said "15% Haste" a few days ago. Now it says 20% Haste again. -
Not overpowered or anything, but more tedious to go against.
It just gets boring that they give almost every killer a projectile/ranged attack nowadays. -
Pubstomped?
if you look at my screenshot, those are not new players if you look at how far they have prestiged.
I play both sides so I get high MMR matches for both sides. -
@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/466776/knight-should-not-exist
Fun fact!
Even if a guard is chasing a survivor, unhooking automatically ends the hunt and the guard vanishes.
There are anticamp measures
Yeah everyone is saying this, but you have to get to the hook first.
Already mentioned this, but I tried using ghosts to camp the basement stairs - and survivors were injured on their way down before being able to unhook. -
@zonkednb said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4075810#Comment_4075810
Maybe I'm wrong, but abusable implies that there are things you can do with Knight that ensure no counterplay, that don't come as a result of a mistake on your opponent's part. Perhaps I shouldn't call that overpowered, but in my mind these things are in line. I think, other than somewhat rare map situations, it's largely untrue that he's abusable.
He can't proxy hooks with his guards as you just unhook in their face.
He can't pincer you unless you put yourself in a position to be pincered, and even then you've got a decent shot of just running out of the loop as soon as he takes a knee.
The thing I would agree with is he's not particularly stimulating to go against, even when you know what to do.I don't know why you're assuming "no counter play" from the word "abusable".
Abusable just means that something can be abused, and in gaming terminology means used in unintended ways, often to gain an advantage.
Like, for instance, how you're supposed to be able to unhook despite being chased by ghosts.
But from my experience trying to hook camp with the ghosts, it was very effective because most of the times the ghosts would start the chase while being between the hook and the other survivor, so unless the survivor ran away from the hook, the ghost would hit them.
I don't think behavior intends us to effectively hook camp with the ghosts, hence it's one example of what I mean by "abusable".
Worst of all is if the survivor gets the basement - I just placed a ghost patrolling up and down the stairs.
And it's infinite, because the ghosts have separate cooldowns - another example of "abusable". You can abuse the fact that there's no down-time of the ghosts, which I found especially effective when basement camping.
But of course, doing all this means that the survivors could just be doing gens elsewhere. But most of the times people are altruistic and try to prevent the camping, but there wasn't a single match where they didn't go into the basement without getting injured by a ghost, and then I could just go down and finish the job.
Hopefully this clarifies what I mean by his abilities being "abusable" -
@zonkednb said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4075803#Comment_4075803
Knight is not overpowered, but he's a difficult mix of rare so survivors have limited scope to practise against/understand him and largely regarded as unfun. Taking a chase from an NPC is not fun, as there's no mindgame nor anything unpredictable to react to. Getting caught out with a pincer definitely feels cheap if you're not experienced enough to understand what led you to getting caught out like that. I notice a lot of abandons against him too, at a higher rate than I see Blight DCs (pre-nerf) and I could hardly place him in the same league in terms of power.
Sadly this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. People abandon vs Knight because he's not all that fun, meaning they don't learn how to cope with him, meaning they're only going to continue finding him unfun and abandoning.I haven't said he's overpowered.
I'm calling him poorly designed, stupid, and abusable (after playing as him).
But mainly, no fun for survivors to go against.
And I don't think it's due to a lack of understanding - even when understanding how he works, it's just not fun to be chased by NPC ghosts. -
@Leon_van_Straken said:
Hey there,
I will try to explain this to you.
While Knight seems to be an unfair Killer with his "flanking" BHVR nerfed this playstyle a while ago. When Knight is to close to his guard the guard will disappear in half the time meaning that a chase is quiet useless.
When the guard is chasing you alone you need to tap windows so that the guard is stuck and the knight is chasing someone else as useless M1 Killer.
The camping with guards is not as strong as it seems. If you go for the unhook the guard will instantly drop the chase on you keeping this tactic useless it is only another notification that the unhook is happening which the knight would get anyway.
I read that they disabled "tapping" vaults. Like there was a patch that made it so you couldn't run up to windows to make the ghosts run up to them. Did they change it back to work again?
I understand that there are theoretical counters to him, but I still stand by my claim that his abilities are extremely abusable.
I am just playing knight for the first time. 3 matches so far, have made the survivors give up every match so far.
My point here being that if I can do this as a brand new Knight player, clearly something is wrong here.
(screenshot shows the bots escaping because I also abandoned after I was the only player left)
Edit:I should also point out that the players didn't use the abandon feature to leave - they chose to take a matchmaking penalty in order to leave just to get out of there, both of them healthy with 1 generator left.
-
I know this forum loves just downvoting posts that complain about features,
but can somebody make any good counter arguments outlining why you disagree, and explain why you think Knight is well-designed?
Because to me, it just seems like a poorly designed killer that can be easily abused when playing as him. -
@Alphensmith said:
I'm dumbfounded Dead Space, Siren and F.E.A.R. haven't collabed with Dead by Daylight.
My guesses are F.E.A.R. and Siren aren't popular and Dead Space I guess it's difficult to negotiate with EA? I don't know.
But those 3 games gave me life long mental scars and probably ruined me in some ways as a kid lmao.
Shout-out to Parasite Eve, …Iru!, Kuon, Clock Tower, Dino Crisis and Nightmare Creatures can't forget those.
Might be hard to make a siren collab since most enemies in the game are zombified humans, unless they used the final boss (Mother). Even then she'd be hard to adapt for DBD, not not impossible.
I would love to see them do this tho, would be cool to see Kyoya in the game -
@pidgeon said:
Trapper mains I summon thee, is there a discord for trapper mains where I can look at cool trap spots and such?
If you go against me you can just put those down anywhere and I guarantee you I will step in them.
I suffer from the blinded debuff IRL :) -
@PetTheDoggo said:
It really annoys me I can't put BP into him…
This is the worst part of it.
I clicked legion, then clicked the bloodweb and clicked the + button right after.
Spent 4 million on trapper by accident, because it auto switched to him without me noticing. -
@Aphy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069849#Comment_4069849
And apparently you missed my point. Im not there for some quick 2 minute match. I don't want to move on, I want to complete everything in a single match. Unless I die and then that's fair.
Survivor leaves and its not a problem. I know how to work the bots. They become my slaves and do my bidding. I'm sure you play with npc's every day in your other games that are single player and never complain.So if 3 survivors leave after 2 minutes, you want to sit there with bots and do 5 generators and run out the door?
I don't believe that. At the very least, if you truly want that, I believe most people would disagree. -
@Little_Kitten said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069554#Comment_4069554
You’re playing with words.
Even if the ‘true, original, fundamental’ teabag is done on top of a downed opponent, when a survivor crouches repeatedly after stunning a killer, you’d have to be pretty hypocritical to think the meaning is: ‘Oh, sorry, I hope that didn’t bother you, how are you? Want to go again?’
The gesture clearly resembles teabagging; by extension, we call it ‘tbag’, but the intent is the same: to mock the opponent for free.
In THAT kind of situation, of course. This survivor action can also be used in a friendly way, like you described earlier in your list.
You should read my entire message before responding.
Because I explained that the intention of a lot of survivors isn't to use crouching to BM, but rather as a way to communicate.
I gave plenty of examples of situations where I personally do it, and I know other people do it as well with no ill intention.
I am sure there are people who do it to taunt as well, but from my observations this is the minority of cases.
And even then, people who would do it to taunt only do it because sensitive players get so upset about it. It's "feeding the troll", so to say. -
@Aphy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069527#Comment_4069527
- When they DC and the match ends it's incomplete. It's not a win. (I really hate this win or lose mentality everyone has, there's no victory banner for either side at end of matches) I was not done with the match. I did not finish the main objective. I did not reach the end and witness any potential in end game on either side. If I wanted to queue up, run around for a few minutes for some very low bp then bail, well I would not even bother playing at all then. I entered queue in agreement to the game in whole. From beginning to end. I'd rather die on hook then deal with Rage DC's.
2. I'm always alone when I'm running Myers. As killer I'm orchestrating the match. Do we have some goofy fun? Do we farm? Do we hustle and really go up against each other? There is no feeling alone. If anything they are my prey, my toys, my children and the entire map is my playground. As far as looping goes, it's a challenge one both ends. Who can win the loop. If I find that I am losing the looping battle then I'm smart enough to stop and do a gen check. Hats off to the looper for being better than I at the chase. As a survivor, I'd rather a killer go afk while the team finishes gens and leaves by gate. Its honorable at least to let the team wrack up the points and leave by gate since killer is feeling defeated. I respect those killers which rarely happens in my experience.
As a survivor who deals with other's botting, I find it equally ridiculous. It's a cop out. BUT.. I can work with a bot rather then how it used to be, being a man short. Many times I come across killers who apologize for the surv botting and the match also took a turn for the better. At least bots do gens and heal and some bots are actually better then the player who bailed out. The only time a bot works against you on your team is when it comes to hatch. The bot detects hatch like crazy and will leave you in the dust but then when left with a bot on my team and its just me and the bot left, I make sure the bot dies so there's no hatch battle in the end. YOU CAN use bots in your favor in many ways. They are bots, learn the program and direct them. If they follow me, i get in a locker. Once you enter a locker while injured they leave and stop following you immediately. If on a gen and they are begging for a heal i just ignore them and then they move on to the gen or another needed objective. They don't sacrifice teammates while in a chase but they do know how to loop the killer like crazy and im all for that. Keep the killer busy while I do gens or other needed objectives.
I don't care about winning or losing either, and you completely missed my point.
Killer leaves = match ends and I can move on to the next match.
Survivor leaves = I am forced to waste time playing with NPCs. -
@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069554#Comment_4069554
We know what teabagging is. It's kind of hard to get on top of the killer to properly perform the action you see. The message is received even without the proper position being taken.
Wrong message received then.
It's just crouching. You are choosing to let it upset you. -
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/P0NIXKSKAH55/image.png
For those of you who don't know, beHaviour is planning on adding a new update to deal with "Problematic Stacking Values". The sad part is, the current way that it's implemented doesn't even properly address the problem. In cases where the 2nd perk only adds a tiny amount, even that tiny amount will get nerfed massively, even if it's nowhere in the problematic range.
What's even sadder is that I already provided beHaviour with the feedback on how to permanently deal with all problematic values in the game perfectly in an older post in which i showed we could even make Leader work again with vaulting speed (like it used to) through the new problematic value managing system:https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/45859/make-leader-affect-vaulting-speed
There's no need for us to be having this problem again or tackling it through a messier system
EDIT:
Here's the more detailed and up to date version of the problematic value managing system:Diminishing returns is a good idea - if they also balance perks around having diminishing returns.
Like you said, some perks provide only a minor boost. These will be useless now unless their values are re-adjusted with diminishing returns in mind.
But overall, if they actually spend the time and effort to rebalance perk values, then diminishing returns make it much easier to provide a fair balance when perks do get stacked.
And if they make sure perks are good on their own (I.E fixing the minor buff perks that currently are only good when stacked), then it gives the player the benefit of being encouraged to have a varied build, instead of stacking the same modifier on 4 different perks in order to make the build useful. -
@BongoBoys said:
So Devs are adding Diminishing returns to modifier stacking but honestly I don't like it
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/Q0Q5F1MCW3Y8/20260402-213854.jpg
In the long run this implementation will hurt Killers the most way more then it will Survivors and not to mention ruin the Creativity of builds I do agree that some things like 4 slowdowns is miserable but I think that Devs should balance the perks themselves then ruin things as a whole
I think diminishing returns is a good idea in concept, but they're going to have to look at all the perks it affects and rebalance some of them.
Because currently, the perks are balanced around being able to stack them without reducing their effectiveness, and some perks provide only a minor increase that are only useful when stacked with something else.
But it is a good idea - as long as the affected perks are re-balanced to being good on their own. Then you can give your build more variety instead of stacking the same effect on every perk. Hopefully the devs understand they have to re-visit all these perks and look at their numbers. -
@coldflame said:
intentionally 12 hook, never chase people off unhook, play a b tier, never slug even when theyre camping with flashlights
they still teabag and stand at gate and flashlight click anyway?
why should i even bother following their made up rules if theyre just going to act like toxic babies anyway? surv players are terrible losers and even worse winners
The DBD player base does not know what "teabagging" is.
Teabagging is when you crouch repeatedly on top of another player.
Crouching repeatedly in front of you is not teabagging. You are choosing to interpret it in a negative way.
Repeated crouching is the quickest and easiest animation that a survivor can perform.
I do it all the time.
I do it at the start of the trial if i spawn next to someone, to say hello.
I do it before getting on a generator next to another survivor, to show them I'm there.
I step next to the other survivor and do it when they blow up the generator, to show them i'm disappointed.
I do it when I get excited, when I'm scared, when I'm stressed, and this includes if this happens when the killer looks at me.
I even do it in rhythm with the generator noise as I walk towards it.
I also introduced the game to a new friend recently, and she jumped out of a bush and started repeatedly crouching in front of the killer before running past him into the exit gate. Another friend said "wow toxic!", but the friend new to DBD said they didn't mean it that way, they just wanted to pop out of the bush and say hello to the killer before leaving. -
@THEProblemsolver said:
trickster at this point is a lost cause for the majority of the fan base duty to the most of the players being controller based and trickster is not controller friendly unless you have no stick drift and lightning fast god reflexes to shoot players down before they turn the corner never to be seen again.
It doesn't matter if the majority of the player base uses a controller.
Game mechanics should be balanced around what's possible, not what an individual player chooses to use.
Since this game can be played with keyboard and mouse, Trickster should be balanced around assuming that the player has mouse aiming available to them. -
@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069527#Comment_4069527
In regards to bots.
You can point at gens and the bots will do the gen.
Same with healing you can do the come emote and they will start healing you first if both you and bot are injured rather then begging for a heal first.
Which causes me to have to interrupt my actions to try to micromanage the bots.
So i could be on a gen, bot comes up to me and starts spam crouching next to me.
And with my luck, if I tried to get off the generator to emote, I'd probably get a skill check and blow up the gen.
Also from my experience doesn't always seem to work.
Even then, I would rather play a match with actual people instead of NPCs. -
Playing survivor during this blood moon event, a majority of killers are tunneling and camping, and having an overall toxic playstyle. … Which is extremely weird for people playing an event.
And when I played killer, I had leavers in 80% of my matches despite me playing very casual.
Now, since there keeps being posts from people on both sides crying about "waaah my opponents are being toxic", my guess is that people play in an unsportsmanlike manner because they feel like their opponents are, so it's like a downwards spiral of people just behaving badly towards each other.
What people needs to do is leave their revenge mentality behind.
If you got tunneled last match, don't bully the next killer you face.
Same for killers, don't start tunneling and camping because your previous match went poorly.
Treat each match as a new chapter. Leave previous matches behind. -
edit: i misunderstood since i keep seeing people talking about seeing the killer while in the lobby. Which should never be a thing.
Either way, I don't think we should be able to see which killer it is at all. It is detrimental to some killers, mainly stealth killers. -
@Purestatic said:
Why are you allowing SWFs to continue to dominate since the entirety of dbd's existence?
This only makes the game worse by also adding in diminishing returns which will heavily affect killers more than it does survivors. This is also exasperated by the excessive amount of pallet density and unbalanced maps tilting to ones favor.
You're giving SWF endless buffet while killers starve to death.
Can you explain what you mean when you ask the question "Why are you allowing SWFs to continue"?
What is continuing? People playing a game together?
And what do you expect to be done about it?
Disallowing people from playing a multiplayer game together with their friends or what? -
@ArcT said:
Killers have been able to do all this for years. No items? Can take off Franklins. Four flashlights. Lightborn. 4 matching Aces, dodge.
If it hasn't been a problem for killers to do this, then it's not a problem for survivors.
Or better yet, prevent both sides from seeing anything about the other, which would help curb sniping as well.
The difference here is that each killer has a unique power.
But all the survivors are exactly the same, and the killer has no clue what build the survivors bring.
The only thing the killer can see are the items in the hands of the survivors.
It's a small advantage, but not problematic. -
@AerinRockstarTTV said:
There is a abandon option for if all survivors are slugged, or down so everyone can dc, why not do the same for killers with all generators pop?
Because the abandon feature is dogs##t in general and encourages leaver mentality.
I wish the survivors didn't get this option to show up so easily.
And I don't think this option should show up easily for killers either. -
@Phantom_ said:
I'm wondering what others think of being a match with other survivors and a killer who are forcing you to farm instead of playing the match normally. I've seen how this goes, if you don't play along with whatever they want, then you'll get tunneled out or killed and the killer will let the others escape because they did farm in a way the killer wanted.
I'd personally want a normal match. If the killer wants to farm at the very end then yeah whatever. But if you're loading in and all you're doing is just forcing people to farm with you? Is that not reportable?Personally, I queue up for a match because I want to play the game.
However, since the killer is alone on their side, they have the biggest influence over how the match will go down.
So if the killer is friendly, I play along for a bit and then just go and do generators to get it over with.
And if the killer decides to kill me instead, that's just another way for me to move on to the next match, so that's fine too. -
@Aphy said:
Everyone loves to complain about survivors DC'ing and I get it if it's premature (some survivor bots are better then the actual player tho). There's nothing like playing against sweaty killers you just hate and I personally don't dc until the mori scene cause "they never change and I've seen them all" but lets talk about these salty killers Rage Dc'ing because they can't catch-n-kill anyone. There needs to be a very high penalty for that. It doesn't just eliminate bp's for killer it also eliminates bp's for survivors and closes out the entire match. Depending on how soon the killer dc's it could be a huge amount of bp that they know they are denying survivors and it's wasting the time of 4 other people. At least when survivors dc there is a bot that replaces them. Honestly I would love to go up against a bot killer (given that the bot cannot detect a survivor without them setting off some indication or being in a certain distance to claim chase) But no one is going to get better by dc'ing. Playing killer is freakin easy!!!! My killer main is Myers and without out breaking a sweat I can get 4k every freakin match, even against a 4man bully squad without using lightborn. (Frankly, they bring out the best in me, game on.. lets do this) I don't want to throw shade so I won't go on about entitlement or the lack of skills in these killers but perhaps practice arena's for those really needed to learn to play. The tutorial is very brief but for killer a full on arena with 4 bots and the match is in stages that teach strategy or.. perhaps I am just thinking too much and a simple MASSIVLY HIGH PENATLY will prevent these salty killers from Rage Dc'ing just because they can't catch or kill everyone. Seriously, there is no excuse about it being hard. Practice makes perfect. Keep going and get better. Games have gone from lasting well into the hour to "i cant catch or kill anyone so Im'a be salty and Rage DC cause to hell with them" within sometimes the first 5 minutes of the match. Absolutely zero of my friends play anymore because its just too irritating to deal with.
As a survivor main, I don't care if the killer DCs, for a few reasons.
1. When they DC, the match ends and the survivors win. No time wasted, you can just go queue for the next match.
2. They are alone on their side. If they get looped so hard that they feel like they are out of their skill level, then I don't mind if they leave if they give up. I very much prefer this over them just AFKing somewhere while we finish the generators.
On the other hand, when survivors leave, the match continues and the remaining players are forced to play with bots. Personally I don't want to play either with or against bots in a multiplayer game, and I don't know how anyone can claim "bots are good". What? They actively work against you instead of being useful. They follow you around like a lost puppy when injured. Even if you're on a generator, they'll spam crouch next to you to ask for heals instead of just joining you on the gen. They'll actively sacrifice team mates while they are in a chase. Their behavior infuriates me more than any rando ever could. -
Pretty True a Killer can sometimes turn things around at the end game but for Survivors you can't really make a comeback which is why people just give up and go next.
That used to be the purpose of the hatch.
It used to appear earlier based on the amount of survivors that had died, but you needed a key to open it.
But killers complained when survivors used it to escape so now it just functions as a pity win for the last survivor.
I'm not saying "bring back old hatch mechanics", but would be nice with some way for survivors to turn it around after getting initially steamrolled. -
@UnicornMedal said:
Being completely honest, can we stop footing Survivor with the bill for every negative consequence of the game? Is it really that difficult to see why more and more are giving up?
I don't know if this is a response to my original post or the thread discussion in general.
But personally I am pinning this on the developers who has designed the game in a way that encourages leaving. I didn't mean to pin the blame on survivors. I've just noticed they are the ones DCing the most now, and when they DC it affects everyone else negatively. Something just needs to change so that survivors won't feel like DCing so much. -
@DarkStrife said:
as a literal pvper for years this is a horrible idea. Instead maybe instead of punishing the leavers perhaps find out why BOTH sides are leaving the game? I don't mean the broad reasons either I mean the EXACT reasons. Punishing people is just going to encourage uninstalls without fixing any issues on it. If its happening every now and then there isn't a major problem, but almost all the time or more common there is definitely an issue.
We know the reasons.
The game has always been unbalanced. Both survivors and killers have the ability to make the game unfun for their opponent if they play in certain ways. I know you're asking for exact reasons, but this is possible to do in so many ways that it's just part of how the game is designed. Since the game has always had this issue, devs won't fix it, so the "fix" ends up being that players have to play with honor and integrity, which some people are great at, while others see no problem in tunneling, hook camping, or bringing builds to purely annoy the killer, or taunt them.
Since balancing the entire game is too large of a scope to aim for, the next best thing to do is to at the very least discourage players from leaving. But currently, the abandon system encourage leaver mentality, and the penalty timers are not doing enough. -
@Shinkiro said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067379#Comment_4067379
but almost all the time or more common there is definitely an issue.
The issue is player mentality, and its not a problem any dev can solve, only punish. But people would rather gaslight and project onto others than admit that. 90% of the DCs you'll see are just petty rage quitting for no real reason. Getting found first and downed fast, hate the map, dont want to play against that killer, screwed by rng or ping, etc etc.
It's a problem because the leniency allows it to be and there is little enforcement. It's not like there is any real detriment to leaving. You lose nothing, atleast in something like say Overwatch you get suspended or banned for the season or deranked or something meaningful if done repeatedly.
The developers can solve it.
Because they've caused it.
It has gotten so much worse since the abandon system was introduced, because it induces that "leaver mentality" into the player base.
There are steps that the developers can take to reduce that kind of mentality.
1. Rework the abandon system. The abandon button currently shows up far too soon. This encourages leaver menality.
2. Add a countdown after trying to leave before you can confirm. This may reduce rage quitting because it gives people time to consider their decision and whether the penalty is worth it.
3. Penalties need to make people think twice before leaving a match. If the penalty is a timer, you can just close the game and do something else. That's why I suggested to force repeat offenders into a shortened match with bots that they need to complete before queueing with real people again. This would technically even be shorter than a timed penalty, but you have to actively complete it.
So the combined change I'm suggesting would go something like this:
If a player tries to rage quit, the game forces them to wait for 5-10 seconds while showing a warning about potentially having to play a bot match if they keep leaving matches. I bet that leaver mentality would fade pretty fast in a lot of players. -
@tyantlmumagjiaonuha said:
I play a variety of PvP games, but nowhere else do you find a player base that quits as frequently as DbD survivors. Of course, there are players on the Killer side who quit when their totems get destroyed in 30 seconds or when they’re constantly being targeted by the group, but that number is probably less than a tenth of the survivors who quit.
Despite matches lasting only 5–10 minutes, BhVR is solely to blame for fostering a player base that can’t stick it out until the end and quits immediately whenever they get frustrated. They should bear some of the responsibility for this.
BHVR is pretty bad at designing good game mechanics. Hence why the most effective way to win in DBD is to play in a way that annoys your opponents (regardless of side).
But that's how the game is, and always has been. And if someone gets so frustrated that they tend to rage quit, then an option is to uninstall and play something else. We're not forced to play this.
So while I agree BHVR has some responsibility in this (they literally encourage leaving now, which is why I'm suggesting changes), I still can't say they are solely to blame. They play a part in it, but at the same time, people can't blame their personal behaviors on… Behavior. -
Everyone's solution is to "Just hold W".
It's true, sure. But is fun game design?
To me, Trickster feels like a huntress for people with low skill level.
Huntress has to take care to aim and hit her hatchets. It feels good for huntress when she gets hits. It feels good for the survivor when they dodge it. And it feels impressive at times when you get hit by it.
Trickster can just spam until he eventually hits enough for the survivor to go down. It is just so boring to go against, and at least personally I'm never impressed when I go down from a Trickster, like I do with huntress.
So IMO, the problem isn't whether or not you can win against it. The problem is that it's simply not fun to play against. -
@SandMan212 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4063465#Comment_4063465
no. this is also your assumption here. im not saying "remove swf" im saying "bring up the power of the game around swf, so the game can be more fair for everyone." I'm not saying remove it.
also, when i point out that matchmaking im pointing out thats the current standard, and that trying to move current SOLOQ/SWF onto a new MMR system wouldnt work because the power potential of the two heavily influences your mmr and how much stronger you are/arent without it. The point is, this IS how MMR works in the modern day, right now. I'm not saying it SHOULD be like this, im saying it IS like this. And its unfair to everyone involved including the people in the SWF. You would know this if you saw how MMR works in this game.
Also, you cannot blame me for getting a little mad when it looks like youre just ignoring what im saying and making passive aggressive comments toward me. No wonder im a little upset about that. Like, there is proof that you're not really reading what im saying when you said "What should people do? Stop having friends?" I never said anything even close to this in ALL I said. Not once. Thats why im a little upset with you, you're not paying attention to what I'm saying basically at all. And all the things I tried to make points with, you basically said nothing about and just… complained about something I didn't talk about at all. Or either that, make up a fictitious extreme scenario to get mad over. (Ex : The Narrator telling you what to do/Claim I want people punished for playing SWF)I was just trying to have a discussion, but if you just keep accusing me of being aggressive towards you then I don't see a point in continuing.
-
@SandMan212 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4063272#Comment_4063272
So you admit there is a problem. With swf in the state it's in, people who play swf often will be in higher mmr. They'll more than likely have a harder time since currently dbd lacks the ability to give information. And that's unfair to the survivor to be put in a mmr they can't maintain 24/7. Since how mmr works now is that swfs get into higher mmrs. Even if mmr was better, this would still happen slowly over time.
Thanks for basically repeating what I said. Basically all the other stuff you said is whataboutism and putting words in my mouth. Cry about swf? I'm not asking for a swf nerf. I'm asking for a foundation to have proper game balance on. I never said I want swf gutted. If all you can do is make stuff up then don't even bother trying to debate.
But moving on, you're also not everyone. People do play casually, some people don't. The overall idea of balancing swf as a basis and a standard, is to close the power gap between soloq and swf. So more casual players will struggle less, and tryharding as a swf won't have as many advantages as it does now. And killers can be properly balanced around this standard and killers could have a easier time learning the meta game of this game. The whole idea of this a is to make it so it's just more fair, and there can be more diversity in players. And you won't feel a need to sweat as much as you used to. The biggest difference between the best and the worst is the meta game. The reason SWF is so good is it ignores a part of the meta game. So the best way to fix the gap is to make it so everyone can do that to some degree and balance the game around it. Thats not a shocking revelation. And by doing this, it means people who play casually also have access to this, so people who tryhard no longer have a overwhelming advantage of both being rare and also dont have a advantage over most killers that are just new. Because the game adjusts for this.
All you're trying to do is belittle me for wanting a balanced game. Trying to passively claim that because you're a majority (in which you know nothing about me) and that makes my opinion invalid. Genuinely, you should stay on topic instead of being a child and getting personal over me basically saying "I want game to be more fair." You're wasting both our time at this point. If you can't grasp the concept people have fun in different ways, hop off. Seriously. I wasn't even saying playing for fun is invalid. I'm saying in this hostile cesspool of a game playing purely for fun is super hard. Because people feel like they need to try hard, because most people have the most fun when they win. And that'll always be what people want to do. If everyone was playing at a closer level the game would immediately become more tolerable to play.
There is no world where swf and soloq being the same strength or at least close is a bad thing. Either swf is slightly weaker because things are balanced around it and therefore the game is more consistent and enjoyable, or soloq becomes more tolerable.
I'm not trying to belittle you, I'm trying to explain to you that basing matchmaking on whether a person is queued solo or together with others is not a good metric to decide how strong the group is. Yet your responses keep being emotional, assumptious, and based in misunderstanding.
You completely missed the word "if" in my initial sentence ""Because if SWFs are more powerful", and you jumped straight to responding with "so you admit there's a problem."
I don't know how you jumped to that conclusion. I'm telling you that the lack of a proper MMR system is the problem, while you're stuck blaming SWFs for existing. Like.. What should people do? Stop having friends? -
@SandMan212 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4063036#Comment_4063036
This game stopped being a horror game the moment looping became normalized and off hook endurance became weaponized. People play for effectiveness now. That has been the case for years. And that is not going to change anymore, this game isn't casual. Also, I find it to not be "silly" at all. It's unfair to both soloq and killer for swf to exist in the state it's in. Bhvr treats swf as if it's the same as soloq and this leads to massive learning curve issues on the killer side and enabling swf to have said narrator at all times. A lot of people on dbd would love that narrator you're talking about. Because they wouldn't care about how goofy it is, they want to win. Even so, you're exaggerating. They wouldn't add a narrator, they'd more than likely add a talking wheel to share information and the ability to observe perks in the pre-game lobby. These could easily slot in on the side of the screen as being over survivor heads. Also, once again, swf would just make mmr harder to balance. Why do you keep going back to this being a fix all thing. I already explained in full how giving so much control and not a truly accounting for it in balance is a problem. This would lead to bloat in mmr and would still make mmr unstable. If anything that's still a part of the problem. You want people to be in a swf, be In high mmr they don't need to be in, then wonder why they're getting stomped? The point is if swf is to be the standard, then soloq has to be on its level. For the sake of being fair to everyone who is playing.
Again… The problem is that matchmaking MMR does not exist.
Because if SWFs are more powerful, then as a result, they would get a higher MMR, and thus match against higher rank killers. But we don't have any system like this, which is the problem.
Continuing to cry over people queueing together does not help.
And if you want to "punish" people for playing in a party by giving them higher ranked killers, then you'll also punish friends who just play together for fun as well.
"People play for effectiveness now. That has been the case for years."
You're drawing everyone over the same line. It's sad that some people forget how to have fun in games and play just to win. But saying this as a general statement is not fair. I have several different friend groups i play with, and I also play solo. Out of all of my friends, none of them play for efficiency. We all just mess around and have fun. You should try it too sometime. -
@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4063030#Comment_4063030
"you can tell whether or not a killer has this enabled"
There is no option to disable it. Its always on, for everyone.
And yes, its tracking the survivor model, but that is not as important as it sounds. The hitbox is larger than the survivor. So you can hit the air around a survivor and it counts as a hit (bc it matters that you hit the hitbox and not if you hit the visible survivor model).
That looks obviously stupid, so the system aims your attack to the survivor model. But that only happens if you connected with the hitbox already. So it was a hit anyway. Worse, if the redirect to the survivor model aims your weapon against an obstacle, it could even let the attack fail.
Whats the difference between controller and mk? Technically both have the system, but mk probably needs its less. Bc you can easier aim your attack, you probably often hit the survivor model directly and not only the hitbox. So there is no aim dressing neccessary.
Tested it and yea, mouse+keyboard get this now too.
Was this always the case? I don't remember it being like this when I last played killer, which was quite a while ago. -
@SAWII said:
I like how multiple people have explained, with evidence, that auto-aim/aim dressing exists regardless of what platform you play, and OP absolutely refuses to believe it.
I have never said I don't believe it exists regardless of platform. It's applied when you play with a controller, which can be done on PC.
I am suggesting they should split up matchmaking into letting you choose whether it's enabled or not. Instead of how they currently split up their matchmaking lobbies which kills everything except cross-play. -
@SandMan212 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062774#Comment_4062774
The point is swf basically functions as a narrator that tells you everything you need to do. And sorry, this is just a deflection from the main point. Just because something isn't super common doesn't make it fine. And it also doesn't change my statement of how mmr works. Yes, it's bad in general. Swf still boosts strength and messes with mmr because balancing soloq and swf as the same thing isn't fair for the killer end. Not to mention, the fact that swfs ARE rarer just means that it's even more unfair for killer, since they are conditioned to not learn how to face them . Its partially why the learning curve in this game is so bad on the killer side. You are facing two things at any given time. And about your solo matches, the point is not about you alone getting decent info. It's about a steady stream at the ready at any given time back and forth. Just because, once again, you manage the bare minimum doesn't mean that things at their worst are suddenly fine. The issue here is you're trying to push balancing issues solely onto mmr. When that's just not the sole reason.
The question here is:
Do you want a horror game with a narrator in your ear that tells you exactly what's happening:
"Survivor Meg has line of sight of the killer at the killer shack!"
"Survivor Meg is in a chase!"
"Survivor meg has lost sight of the killer near the tractor!"
… What fun would the game be at that point?
Personally, I already preferred the game without the new UI icons. I don't like being handheld in games. But at least I understand why these UI icons were needed. But… asking for even more hand holding is a bit silly. We just need a proper MMR system so that people get opponents and team mates in their skill range. -
@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062866#Comment_4062866
Dev stream:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A8SwqJJKlaY
12:20
The rest of the video is also kinda interesting, but that part answers your question.
Thank you. I watched it.
This is another example of BHVR not understanding game development and terms.
- They added a hitbox that's slightly larger than the damage hitbox.
- If a survivor is within this hitbox when the killer swings, the killer will auto aim to track the survivor.
- Their reasoning is "because the survivor would be hit anyways." (which isn't true, you can try to dodge)
- They made up a bullshit word for it because they don't want to admit it's a type of auto aim.
This just further shows that BHVR does not understand their own game.
Because the hit isn't instant. A survivor can try to dodge the hit. But with the killer's aim tracking the movement of the survivor when they try to dodge, that is definitely a type of auto aim. And when you play survivor, you can tell whether or not a killer has this enabled.I've seen BHVR try to play DBD before, it's painful to watch. So it's no surprise that they don't understand the concept of trying to dodge a hit when the killer swings, and just assume that "you would be hit anyways!"
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@Wiccamanplays said:
You've still not explained why you want crossplay off in the first place. Setting aside any PC Master Race assumptions which are primarily facie incorrect (your comment about 'aim assist' is totally wrongheaded and misunderstands what aim dressing does, otherwise kill rates on aim-intensive Killers would be higher on console than PC, and not the other way around), what could possibly be a justifiable reason for PC players to segregate themselves, exploding everybody's queue times in the process no matter how you slice it, just so they don't play with console players?
it's like this community doesn't want to read, and then just gets upset at what they think you mean without understanding.
I did explain why I want to play in PC lobbies.
It's because I want chat on. Because I don't want "aim dressing". And because it's harder to aim flashlights on console, so it makes sense for players to be able to choose whether they want these features on or off, instead of forcing everyone into cross-play by making the other lobbies dead.
Either way, techincally what I'm suggesting is having 2 cross-play lobbies that anyone can choose between - just that PC players join the lobby with chat on by default, and console players join the one with chat off and "aim dressing" on by default.
I still don't get why everyone thinks queue time would explode because of this.
Currently the game has 5 different queue lobbies:
- PC, Playstation, Xbox, Switch, and cross-play.
- The game puts everyone in the cross-play lobby by default, leaving the other 4 lobbies completely dead.
My suggestion is to reduce this to only 2 lobbies:
- "PC lobby" - Where PC players join by default.
- "Console lobby" - Where console players join by default.
- You can change freely - and you can still join friends. If you party with a friend, just use the host's lobby settings.
^ Technically these would both be cross-play lobbies, just that you as a player can choose if you want PC or Console features like the chat and aim "dressing".
Also, both of these lobbies would immediately be full of players - The PC version alone peaked at 60,000 simultaneous players in the past 24 hours, and they only make up about 30% of the playerbase. -
@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062862#Comment_4062862
From what I remember back when CrossPlay was first introduced, it's an all or nothing coding across all platforms. Seems to be a remnant of the original 2016 game when lobbies were peer-to-peer with the killer as the host, much like Custom lobbies still are.
When they ported the game onto the consoles the following year matchmaking was still isolated by platform. Adding CrossPlay threw everyone together, and turning it off reverts to the old system. They might not be physically able to change that.
It's programming. They can definitely modify how their matchmaking works.
Then again, it's BHVR, and their netcode is held together with duct tape.
This may be off-topic, but you can tell that this game still uses the same peer-to-peer base code.
Their "dedicated servers" act more like relay servers, where clients use a middle-man for communication rather than sending packets directly to each other. True dedicated servers handle every game action and verifies everything server-side, and it's clear that this is not the case in DBD. -
@MrMori said:
As a PC player, I'd like to talk to nobody before or after the match, and I'd like an option to remove the box completely and show everyone on the post game screen that I can't chat with them. So changing this to your liking wouldn't be objectively better for everyone.
Auto aim isn't important enough of a game element to justify separating the player pools, and it also makes no sense to separate survivors from PC killers if killer auto aim is the problem in your eyes. Games suffer when player pools are split like this.
You're misunderstanding the post then.
Please check the charts I drew to visualize how it would work.
I'm suggesting to reduce the matchmaking pools to only 2 pools - PC pool, and Console pool.
And all I'm suggesting is that by default, PC players should be put into the PC pool, and console players should be put in the console pool.
Then, regardless of platform you play on, you should be able to opt-in to join the other pool.
In other words, my suggestion would allow you, a PC player, to turn off chat if you wanted to. -
@EntityNea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062849#Comment_4062849
That is exactly my point: cross play is every platform - Meaning that everyone who installs DBD gets put into the "every platform" matchmaking pool by default.
This leaves the other matchmaking pools completely dead, so the cross-play option becomes mandatory if you want to find a match.Let me visualize it:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/HDR2555DTQRC/cross-play-on.png
Now, since the game functions pretty much the same on Xbox, Playstation, and Switch, there's no reason for them to even have their own matchmaking pools. But when it comes to PC, it would be nice to be able to match with only other PC players.
Here is a visualization of what I'm suggesting:https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/V1680FUOJIIZ/cross-play-off.png
All this does is provide better options to players on both platforms, and both pools would have a healthy playerbase.
With this, console players could also opt-in to using game chat, but people who want it off could also choose to keep it off.
I know you're saying that you don't see a difference… But that's likely because you play on console, so you don't notice anything different.
And it's not fair for you to claim that "discussions about chat is irrelevant". Maybe it is to you, but I miss it. And all I'm suggesting is to fix the default option and also make the matchmaking pools only split up into PC/Console so we don't spread too thin.
I've played this game since the early days, and chat was definitely more active before cross-play was introduced. But now that there's so many console players everywhere, nobody cares to type anymore because it's expected that a majority of players won't see it anyways, so people don't bother anymore.
And about crosshairs — They definitely should just add that as a setting, since a lot of PC monitors have it built-in. Might as well just implement it as an in-game setting for everyone.
Edit:
A lot of messages appeared while I typed this - Hopefully this clears up how BHVR could better split up the PC/Console matchmaking pools without spreading the playerbase too thin, which seems to be everyone's response/worry.Aight since this already got downvoted - I genuinely don't understand why people are against having better settings so that everyone can choose what kind of lobby they are in, instead of how it is currently where players are forced into combined lobby.
The game has enough players to have 2 different lobbies where players can choose to play the game with either Console or PC features. (this is current Steam stats):
-
@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062838#Comment_4062838
No, thats wrong information. Aim dressing is enabled on mk and on controller. You have zero advantages as killer on controller. Only disadvantages on some killer.
There is official info about it, but if you want a quick confirmation. Streamers (who play MK like Otzdarva) have aim-dressing.
I don't think you're right about that. You can tell when a killer gets "aim assist" and when they don't.
The killers that get it will automatically turn towards you, while the killers who don't get it have to manually aim when they use M1.
I generally play killer with Mouse/Keyboard and I can definitely say that my aim does not automatically turn towards any survivors when I M1 - it's been a while since I played killer on controller tho so I can't say what happens on PC when you plug a controller in as killer. -
@Wiccamanplays said:
But crossplay doesn't only pair you with people from other platforms from your own, but every platform. DBD"s player base is highly fragmented: I don't know if any one platform has a majority of players these days. If you turned off crossplay for everyone by default, everybody's queue times would get longer for no discernable benefit.
As a player primarily on console who plays with crossplay on, I can attest that there's no significant difference between the player pools, other than some Killers being harder to play because of a lack of native crosshairs and a less forgiving aiming method. Discussions about game chat are irrelevant because as far as I can tell most people don't use them anyway: furthermore there's no reason that console platforms couldn't have a text chat other than dev priorities (and I agree it's not a high priority).
That is exactly my point: cross play is every platform - Meaning that everyone who installs DBD gets put into the "every platform" matchmaking pool by default.
This leaves the other matchmaking pools completely dead, so the cross-play option becomes mandatory if you want to find a match.Let me visualize it:
Now, since the game functions pretty much the same on Xbox, Playstation, and Switch, there's no reason for them to even have their own matchmaking pools. But when it comes to PC, it would be nice to be able to match with only other PC players.
Here is a visualization of what I'm suggesting:
All this does is provide better options to players on both platforms, and both pools would have a healthy playerbase.
With this, console players could also opt-in to using game chat, but people who want it off could also choose to keep it off.
I know you're saying that you don't see a difference… But that's likely because you play on console, so you don't notice anything different.
And it's not fair for you to claim that "discussions about chat is irrelevant". Maybe it is to you, but I miss it. And all I'm suggesting is to fix the default option and also make the matchmaking pools only split up into PC/Console so we don't spread too thin.
I've played this game since the early days, and chat was definitely more active before cross-play was introduced. But now that there's so many console players everywhere, nobody cares to type anymore because it's expected that a majority of players won't see it anyways, so people don't bother anymore.
And about crosshairs — They definitely should just add that as a setting, since a lot of PC monitors have it built-in. Might as well just implement it as an in-game setting for everyone.
Edit:
A lot of messages appeared while I typed this - Hopefully this clears up how BHVR could better split up the PC/Console matchmaking pools without spreading the playerbase too thin, which seems to be everyone's response/worry. -
@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062838#Comment_4062838
Do you have any idea how bad controller feels on killer in DBD? Aim assist? Are you serious? 😂
Yes, i play both with controller and keyboard, depending on what I feel like at the moment.
Controller is much more comfortable when leaning back, but keyboard gives much more precision when playing either survivor or killer.
Giving controllers aim assist is fine, I'm just suggesting that it should be up to players what kind of lobby they end up in. Which, technically you can turn off cross-play… but due to it being enabled by default, the non-crossplay lobbies are dead. -
@TicTac said:
There is no auto aim. There is aimdressing (on console and pc).
… Which is a form of "auto aim", since it's automatically adjusting where you are aiming.
This also is only enabled for controllers. Any other game have separate lobbies for aim assist VS non-aim assist, so that players can make that choice.
Either way, my main point with this post is how the default setting for cross-platform causes platform-dedicated lobbies to be very empty. -
@GhostRider1518 (apparently the quote broke)
are you just downvoting me without reading?
I explained that's why other games check your previous matches in order to determine future matchmaking. So you don't end up with 10 unfavorable matches in a row. -
@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062800#Comment_4062800
You’re assuming more data automatically means a better ranking system. It doesn’t. The real issue is signal quality.
Metrics like chase time, generators completed, or saves are extremely context dependent. A 3 minute chase might mean the survivor played well, or it might mean the killer misplayed, the map spawned strong tiles, or teammates interfered. The system can’t reliably distinguish those causes, so those metrics measure activity, not skill.
That’s why most competitive MMR systems rely heavily on outcomes. Outcomes compress all of that context into a single reliable signal: did the player’s decisions actually lead to winning or losing.
The moment you start rewarding intermediate metrics like chase duration, players will optimize for those metrics instead of the objective. That’s a well-known design problem called metric gaming. At that point the system stops measuring skill and starts measuring who can exploit the metric best.
it might be like that in once match, yes, which in the long run won't matter.
if you collect data from hundreds of matches, you can then compare that data to other players.
For example, if the average chase time across all players is 50 seconds, but you tend to go down after 15 seconds.. you're going to be below average in that category. Even if you get one match where the killer is extremely bad and chases you for 3 minutes, it won't suddenly make your average jump up because that's just one out of many matches.
At the same time, (and this is why i said BHVR would never implement this correctly), you also have to look at circumstances around the chase.
for example, if the game detects you being in a chase because the killer is friendly, check for that by, for example seeing if the killer stays in very close proximity without swinging, or have other metrics that check for that during the match, and if the server deems that the killer was just screwing around, then don't save chase data for that match.
They'd also have to check if the chase was won or lost.
For example, a survivor having a short average chase time, but also a very high percentage of chases won, that implies they're very efficient at disappearing from the killer. So despite that low average chase time, the survivor is very successful at being chased.
Again - the first step is just collecting all the match data.
Not collecting any data means you literally cannot make an MMR system.