NarkoTri1er
NarkoTri1er
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it's sad how older chapters had much better done characters, yet are ones being neglected the most. Money pumping machine has to keep going unfortunately
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@varnium said:
It really sucks if the killer is tunneling. Focusing on 1 survivor until he die, even though there are many other survivors so close to the killer. What's worse is that killer also camp around the hook. It just definitely ruin the fun for the survivor and give him no chance to play at all.
I suggest that everytime a survivor is unhooked, then he gets 10 seconds immunity from the killer. It will force the killer to chase other survivors.
you already have the immunity called basekit Borrowed Time lol.
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@Roco45 said:
The going next prevention as well as other changes are going to kill the game. People already don't want to play SoloQ as most SoloQ matches have Killers tunneling/camping/slugging at 5 gens with SoloQ teammates crapping on eachother throughout because the match is so unfun. Instead, BHVR focuses on ways to trap players into a match they don't want to be in, when the entire point of a video game is to have fun. Fun doesn't always equate to winning, it equates to having an enjoyable experience which this game fails at if you're not in a SWF.
BHVR also keeps streamlining every aspect of the game to where Survs have no agency anymore and most of the game is spent being locked out of moving. I mean, this entire patch is really only targeting SoloQ and it's not like SoloQ needs anymore nerfs, it's already easy mode for Killer. Same with Killers, all new Killers are insta taking Surv health states paired with some for of fast map traversal on already small nerfed maps.
BHVR needs to focus on making the gameplay loop enjoyable and getting rid of the overkill DC penalty. This is a party game with quick matches, there is no logical reason to have a dc penalty system that goes beyond 72hrs and takes 24hrs to de-escalate timers.
The going next prevention as well as other changes are going to kill the game. People already don't want to play SoloQ as most SoloQ matches have Killers tunneling/camping/slugging at 5 gens with SoloQ teammates crapping on eachother throughout because the match is so unfun. Instead, BHVR focuses on ways to trap players into a match they don't want to be in, when the entire point of a video game is to have fun. Fun doesn't always equate to winning, it equates to having an enjoyable experience which this game fails at if you're not in a SWF.
people don't want to play soloQ because they are usually guaranteed to have at least one teammate that doesn't care about the ultimate match goal. Killers will camp, tunnel or slug no matter if you are in SWF or playing soloQ so you can cross that out.
"Fun doesn't always equate to winning, it equates to having an enjoyable experience which this game fails at if you're not in a SWF." - because you can't/don't want (pregame chat) communicate with your teammates in terms of how you will play so you usually end up being the only one actually playing in a way that throws the match and automatically makes it absolutely frustrating for your teammates (yes i'm talking about just wandering around map for saves or playing some other SWF ways that include not working towards your objective). This is the reason why the actual majority who ends up being in match hates when someone just throws the match or gives up on hook simply because "nobody wanted to catter to their own definition of fun".
BHVR also keeps streamlining every aspect of the game to where Survs have no agency anymore and most of the game is spent being locked out of moving. I mean, this entire patch is really only targeting SoloQ and it's not like SoloQ needs anymore nerfs, it's already easy mode for Killer. Same with Killers, all new Killers are insta taking Surv health states paired with some for of fast map traversal on already small nerfed maps.
this patch is literally a huge W for soloQ literally because players giving up early and forcing early 3v1 (same outcome as when killer tunnels someone fast, but takes even less time) are the biggest problem in soloQ now apart from bad matchmaking.
And sorry, but acting like this is some kind of a "soloQ nerf" just because "omg i can't give up when my fun requirements aren't satisfied" while you have just screwed your whole team up is a big self report and makes people with this mindset absolutely red flags for playing soloQ in any team based game. You are frustrated because you can't throw more matches because nobody catters to you and only you as an individual in the match.
BHVR needs to focus on making the gameplay loop enjoyable and getting rid of the overkill DC penalty. This is a party game with quick matches, there is no logical reason to have a dc penalty system that goes beyond 72hrs and takes 24hrs to de-escalate timers.
- i think you aren't aware of what party games are;
- are you aware that you will never reach 72h DC penalty unless you like…DC a lot, right? If you ever reach that point, it's truly time to take a big break from the game and stop ruining other people's matches.
After all of what you wrote, it's not problem in killers anymore, it's not problem in your teammates anymore, it's a problem in YOU.
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@Kweh said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3936224#Comment_3936224
This, most maps have been nerfed to ######### to have these tiles. I don't mean just for me, there's some I can play and some I just see NO possible way to play it. But for my teammates, anything less than a jungle gym into shack into TL wall, means they'll have a 10 second chase and an unplayable game.
most maps? Pardon? Only fundamentally bad maps are Forgotten Ruins and Haddonfield and even on those you can last significantly more in M1 chases than 20s.
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@boon_david_s_d said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/E04VGQ3288PK/bf18edf8-fef5-44cf-b432-0a6a2900f682.png
For those who thinks CoB is stronger, here’s the graph:
From the first look CoB might seem more powerful, but note that it requires time to do to and the graph assumes that no one touches it within a certain period of time, whereas pop takes the regression instantly. With gen in higher progress, pop still wins by a lot.
and if you take in mind that even Pop is simply not a good perk nowadays due to CURRENT progress regression and the fact it has been nerfed to 20% of current progression , this makes CoB even worse.
The thing is, passive regression needs to be much higher to actually get use of passive regression perks like CoB in shorter timespan, meaning 25% buff to CoB is literally a...nothing burger.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3933111#Comment_3933111
Maybe that maps are so terrible you end up with gens spawning in complete dead zones or pallets that are so weak that even if you somehow get a stun you still get hit. Its sad to think a killer player would feel like they actually outplayed anyone by "winning" a chase at some of the current tiles.
there is simply no map where you will last <20s in your very first M1 chase, let's stop making excuses just to avoid learning chases. Even on Vecna's map you can literally last 60s+ in your first M1 chase.
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@XDgamer018 said:
i love this addon together with foxy's hook and its balanced since it works on both sides so if you miss use it can work against you. rlly hope bhvr doesnt nerf this and either makes foxy's hook basekit or makes loot bag basekit
20% on killer is significantly stronger than 20% on survivor since it drastically reduces surv reaction time, especially on checkspots. You'd need to have inhuman reaction time as survivor to handle killer with 20% haste in loops
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3935336#Comment_3935336
I am not sure I would mention such scenario as an example of strength / weakness of a killer because comp is completely irrelevant when it comes to balancing.
It is external, not experienced by the majority of players and filled with restrictions that a regular game doesn't have. It is made for entertainment, not something that players are seeing on their own games daily. It is useless for these kinds of discussions.
Against the average team, Ghostface can hold his own. Every killer can. Any us can think about our own games throughout the years: I guarantee all of us here have seen every killer get a 4k at some point.
i mean yeah, it's separate balancing ruleset, but taking in mind that survivors receive max amount for perks and addons bans against Ghostface (general + tier 5 killer balancing) and Ghostface still can't basically do much at all pretty much tells everything about his actual state. Imagine if he truly was matched with good squads with full meta loadouts.
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@lililensio said:
2v8 is the only mode where you feel like you have a chance to win in solo Q surv. Normal 1v4 is full of killers who believe they are versing Eternal on their winstreak. Dont care about FnaF, game will still be unfun for solo Q even with all the quality of life changes. See ya and hope the next 2v8 comes soon
2v8 is the only mode where you can win as soloQ surv because:
Sprint Burst with a very low cooldown for free no matter if you are escapist or just have an escapist.
Being able to do gens significantly faster than you can in 1v4.
3-gen not being a thing and such nonsense as 6-gen when there is not 10 but 8 gens to repair.
Tunneling/camping and slugging technically not possible.
Being able to often restore pallets.
Many tiles with double pallets where killer just shouldn't commit unless they are a high mobility with chase tools.
Medic role being insanely powerful.
2v8 is a mode where you need 0 coordination and skill to win as surv and it's definitely far more forgiving than 1v4.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3934389#Comment_3934389
Condemned is really strong, if used correctly.
Sorry, but I'm starting to get tired of explaining this in every single post that gets created about her.
it is strong on paper and against mid survivors at best, good survivors will just hold the tape and you will basically never be able to win with this strat.
Well you will basically not be able to win with her nonetheless against good survs with good tape management
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problem with dbd is that it has very high skill ceiling as a game and yea, survivor skill floor is higher than killer skill floor.
Now, what BHVR isn't even trying to do is actually explain the game to new players, tutorial system is terrible and absolutely no guides are being advertised to new players.
I think game needs to be improved drastically in this aspect if we actually want new players to have better experience.
On top of everything, matchmaking needs to be much better.
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@idi_007 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3935313#Comment_3935313
So your argument as to why Legion shouldn't be buffed is because people play badly. Okay 👍🆗. I mean, solid argument.
my argument about not buffing them is that they are a killer with too low skill floor and nonexistent skill ceiling to be worth of a buff
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Legion is one of the most popular killers because they have the lowest skill floor and nonexistent skill ceiling, meaning even baby can play them + even though they are one of the worst killers in the game, they seem very oppressive thanks to bad players.
Honestly, please no to any buffs
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@ad19970 said:
This is just completely untrue. Killers have gotten many good changes over the years. There is of course the big 6.1.0 update, that buffed killers considerably. And we've seen many individual killers being buffed as well. Not to mention some nice perk buffs. And quite a few maps have been changed to be fairer as well. Hell, we've even got a few maps that are now pretty killer sided.
Yes, some slowdown perks have been nerfed, but that's because they were too oppressive. And some killers were also nerfed, but generally rightfully so. You really going to argue that Kaneki was fine at release? I also don't see how Knight was nerfed, he was just changed to promote more healthy gameplay.
Survivors did get some nice changes as well during the last years, but also some nerfs. And I think right now, considering the state the game is in, solo survivors are the ones that deserve some more love. Which they will hopefully get with the upcoming anti-tunnel and anti-camp changes.
This is just completely untrue. Killers have gotten many good changes over the years. There is of course the big 6.1.0 update, that buffed killers considerably. And we've seen many individual killers being buffed as well. Not to mention some nice perk buffs. And quite a few maps have been changed to be fairer as well. Hell, we've even got a few maps that are now pretty killer sided.
ohh, of course we will always talk about the well known 6.1.0 update, but will ignore everything after.
First of all, which nice perk buffs? Slowdown meta was literally punched in the face many times.
Pain Res got nerfed without any proper reason while it was literally the most balanced and healthy gen regression perk at 4 tokens and 25%, fell out of meta.
Pop got nerfed from 30% of current to 20% of current progression, meaning it gets the same results as Eruption ON A SINGLE GEN only when you kick a 90% gen.
Scourge Hook: Gift of Pain and Sloppy Butcher got indirectly nuked by Vigil buffs and mangled becoming limited status effect.
Ruin is now pretty much only okay on killers that can constantly be on multiple places on the map (Blight, Billy, Nurse).
CoB and Overcharge have been completely nuked, and the PTB buff to CoB won't do anything because passive regression meta is dead as a whole.
Killer meta now is basically: Corrupt, Lethal, DMS, Eruption and Grim.
Tunneling, camping and slugging almost impossible at high skill levels unless survivors make mistakes.
Hooks are in the worst state for killer ever.
We've got a bit of killer sided maps (Forgotten Ruins, Haddonfield, Midwich), majority of fairly balanced maps and then we have Eyrie, Gideon, GoJ and whole Badham realm.
Meanwhile, survivor side:
meta was considerably not only expanded, but even buffed. It's so diverse that there are 3 times
StB, the new strongest survivor perk, has been revealed.
Babysitter, an already meta perk, got gigantic buff for absolutely no reason.
Anti-tunneling perks in strongest state ever.
Anti-camping perks in strongest state ever.
Anti-slugging perks in strongest state ever.
Healing meta getting buffed further even tho it's already very oppressive.
Killer is definitely in a good spot rn!
Yes, some slowdown perks have been nerfed, but that's because they were too oppressive. And some killers were also nerfed, but generally rightfully so. You really going to argue that Kaneki was fine at release? I also don't see how Knight was nerfed, he was just changed to promote more healthy gameplay.
only Eruption + CoB was truly oppressive.
old Pain Res + DMS was oppressive because of...DMS only.
Ruin + Undying was oppressive because yk how old Undying was.
Nobody ever said Kaneki was fine at release, but you can see how many balance decisions for killers (latest being Artist nerfs on PTB, literally B tier killer) were utterly unnecessary.
Survivors did get some nice changes as well during the last years, but also some nerfs. And I think right now, considering the state the game is in, solo survivors are the ones that deserve some more love. Which they will hopefully get with the upcoming anti-tunnel and anti-camp changes.
anti-tunnel and anti-camp changes...literally have nothing to do with the state of soloQ atm (only soloQ beneficial change in terms of camping would be basekit Kindred). There was not one good balance decision to improve soloQ all the way since survivor HUD was added, it was nothing but handholding for new players rather than actually overcoming problem of communication lack.The way you can prove it is that every "soloQ" change after survivor HUD was literally a buff for SWF, while soloQ remained in the same state.
@Gh0st2317 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3935230#Comment_3935230
How are they spoonfed? I'd love to hear your reasoning. And I was only saying Killers would be spoon fed if those perks were made base kit for them.
biggest example are tunneling, camping and slugging. Against any killer that actually has at least some skill, these strats are extremely situational and thrive on survivors making mistakes. BHVR has been consistently bringing more changes and perks to counter these playstyles just because bad players didn't want to sit and learn how to counter them.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3933673#Comment_3933673
Even worse, you won't just get a DC penalty, you'll LOSE AN ENTIRE GRADE as punishment.
even worse? Even better lol
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3934489#Comment_3934489
@crogers271 is actually correct here you are missing the point of the argument, drawing a false equivalence, and it was 2 videos of gameplay footage, not a single match.
You posted no footage unfortunately. So you did not do "the same" in any capacity.
So I will just stick with your false equivalence for a response:There’s a big gap between:
Me:- “Here’s a match under extremely unfavorable conditions where I didn’t tunnel and still did well, it directly challenges the claim that tunneling is mandatory.”
vs.
You:- “Well I’ve beaten X killer before too, so your complaints must not matter.”
One is presenting real evidence to analyze. The other is just trying to cancel it out with vague anecdotes and deflection.
If you want to challenge the gameplay I posted, do it with your own footage under similar conditions, not just hypotheticals. Otherwise, this isn’t an honest debate, it’s just more of the same responses already given to me.
Knightlight is at 160 4-men escape streak for not with team Invictus. They managed to 4-out Blights with full meta builds multiple times, some of those even P100. Does that mean Blight is a weak killer and needs to be buffed? Absolutely not.
With current matchmaking good players on both sides will consistently make good results.
The main problem with the game atm is that low mobility killers have absolutely no way to put pressure onto survivors other than managing to force an early 3v1, and they are hardcore punished for it too.
Even if you have antiloop killer, as long as that killer lacks mobility (Clown for example), they won't be able to put pressure on multiple gens because they can't traverse fast to multiple spots of the map.
On the other hand, high mobility killer without chase potential would find themselves in a same spot.
Good luck managing to do even 5 stages on good teams on average as these killers.
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what i also did is pick Oni then switch to e.g. Ghostface since he is very silent even when slicing with hig knife. Can't really spend 20mins listening to Oni's roar every 10s or so
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i will never understand what is such a fuss about twitch shirt at all. Not having them doesn't make you less valuable as streamer at all, but ig only this community has the problem with company actually seeking big streamers to represent it in creator programs (which is pretty basic thing for basically every company that does this)
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as one of biggest fans of Metal Gear franchise, please no. It's a franchise that has no touching points with horror and this game is already enough of a fortnite 2.0
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comparing Hag and Trapper is like comparing Unknown and Huntress tbh.
Bubba is vastly different from Billy. Only similar thing is...chainsaw that doesn't even work the same way.
Og Freddy and Wraith are also conceptually very different.
Clown and Huntress are completely different killers in every aspect.
Spirit with phasing and having to listen to sounds vs. Nurse teleporting, quite a bad comparison.
Ghostface and Myers are also completely different killers in terms of gameplay loop.
Oni has much better traversal than Billy and has to earn his power compared to Billy.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
In part, simply because they are out of ideas as in many ways they have already done everything good. So to keep selling new DLC they have to come up with variations on what has already been done but the trouble is in reality they often end up very unfun to play against.
Pretty much every killer I loathe versing is from the last couple of years.
I miss the early days of mostly M1 killers, I really hate killers like Knight or Twins etc that all but eliminate the fun part for most of us long term players - looping
i don't have anything against chase related killers because with current balance it's impossible to keep up with the game if killer just has micro or macro and not both, but you are completely right about BHVR running out of ideas, basically every newer licenced killer they released was a symbiote of some already existing ones and i'm absolutely saddened they couldn't at least let some of the players actually make concept for Springtrap power to truly make him unique with how big licence he is part of and how hyped the chapter was.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3933184#Comment_3933184
Translation: The data doesn't fit the narrative you want, so you'll dismiss it wholesale, and not even consider things like context or having a discussion about it.
I never said anything about balance, just that the data directly contradicts your exact statement.
the actual translation: matchmaking in this game is atrocious to the point where stats are absolutely irrelevant for balance talks. Good killer player will have enormously high killrate even after passing soft MMR cap, good survivor team will have enormously high escape rate even after passing soft MMR cap. Even with these stats being irrelevant, Blight and Nurse are the strongest killers in dbd tho, but how does Freddy manage to be killer with highest killrate even after passing soft cap at all?
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the best power designs dbd had are og killers, licenced killers are nowadays just mainly symbiotes of already existing og killers.
This and general character design + lore is why i will always love og characters compared to licenced ones
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judging by changes, this is more or less a general nerf. Deciding to nerf an already B+ tier killer is wild ngl
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i mean...we are getting stat tracker soon so you will be able to see how well you perform
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3934253#Comment_3934253
Discourage people from playing the game if it frustrates them to the point of giving up, but also discourage people from taking a break in order for their penalty points to decay. Make that make sense.
in that case people should just take a break for a longer time instead of DCing from matches. Literally case with every other game, especially League of Legends where you literally have the same penalty for abandoning matches as here, not only in ranked but also in normal matches and fun gamemodes
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3934216#Comment_3934216
It definitely is, but it seems like a ton of hard stops here, I mean they go down a Grade, gain DC points that have to be per round fixed, AND they also can't suicide anymore?
Wouldn't just preventing the on hook go next mostly fix this? It feels a little overkill. I agree it was all necessary but still… a bit overkill.ye but you could see how motivated people were to give up when there was 0 punishment for it, i think BHVR wants to discourage it to the max
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@LockerLurk said:
I know we call patches sided even when they're not, but… Jeez. They really gave Survs the short end this time didn't they?
I get it, it had to be done to stop Go-Nexting. It was that bad. But Lord Almighty this is harsh.
what's bad about it? And what actually gives survs the short end here?
So many absolutely winnable soloQ matches get literally obliterated by people who give up prematurely, this is literally a huge QoL improvement for soloQ
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@Unequalmitten86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3933784#Comment_3933784
but doesn’t Overwatch have two different modes? That is the complete difference.
I also feel that this is will ruin the existing player morale and no survivors will be left. Killers have already voiced against playing bots but unfortunately that is what will be left or the super toxic players.
if you aren't ready to queue up for a match, don't queue and you won't have to struggle with this. It's literally that simple
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@Cetren said:
Because mobility without chase loses micro and chase without mobility loses macro. Unless they fundamentally fix how the game is played (not possible at this point with how the game is balanced) they are both essential factors of a killer feeling good to play as.
this is summed up so well, maybe the best explanation of how killerr actually can work in current balance system.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3934115#Comment_3934115
Well, my example is probably their worst nightmare, the kind of result their hypotheticals can’t explain away.
I had everything stacked against me:
- Eyrie of crows: most survivor sided map.
- Playing Vommy Mommy; tall, easily spotted from far away.
- Low mobility killer.
- Mostly an M1 killer with a conditional M2.
- One gen left, only three hook states, and all gens with progress.
No tunneling. Still pulled a 3K win.
According to them, that’s “impossible.” But it happened.
And that’s the point, tangible gameplay beats endless what-if spirals. Hypotheticals aren’t being used to explore ideas or balance. They’re being used to deflect, to protect their belief system, and worse, to avoid the work of actually analyzing games.
What ifs and hypotheticals can go both ways, endlessly. All they are doing is trying to win an argument on the internet. Nothing to do with dead by daylight or balance. Much like the "like" and "dislikes" they are looking for confirmation bias reinforcement.
So yeah, it’s ironic. They say "I’m in a fantasy for not tunneling", while they build their argument on a fantasy version of matches, and ones that I post as well. Dismissing them and picking them apart to fit their narrative, and ignoring the things posted above.
We need to push back, because if all the forums ever hear are emotional complaints dressed up as logic, developers, and players; never get the full picture.
we also need to push back the ideology of "it's so ez to get 3k/4k without tunneling/camping/slugging" or simply just not playing meta builds in a world where state of matchmaking doesn't let you actually play against people with higher macro understanding.
It's like judging the state of league of legends based on how a Challenger smurf went into silver lobbies and managed to hard 1v9 every match
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the fact that BHVR hyped the chapter for almost a year and managed to suppress leakers completely from leaking anything about it just to giveus the Huntress+Xeno flop of a killer is so sad. I mean yeah, he is very interactive and fun for survivor side, but is just overall zzz to play as and power was done in a very lame way.
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@RJoyYourJoy19 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932782#Comment_3932782
Exacty. Instead of trying to address the reasons why people go next, they are instead implementing a system to force you to stay in the match, a system that will also definitely screw the survivors over in scenarios where they aren't even going next. I mostly see killer mains celebrating this change and that's because a) a lot of killers play this game for a power trip and someone going next doesn't give them the same satisfaction as just stomping a Solo Q squad where everyone is actually playing and b) they know that experienced survivors will be playing the game less as it's mostly them who know when the match is absolutely not worth playing while baby survivors will keep playing no matter what so they won't be impacted by this.
can you inform me what exactly is the true reason behind lasting 20s against M1 killer in first chase and then deciding to give up on hook?
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@UnknownEnjoyer seeing people downvote this is crazy, like in what world should RNG decide outcome of the match? It has no place in PvP games.
If you want to get a beneficial self-unhook, just bring Deli or Wicked, simple
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@mecca said:
More Survivor nerfs.
Survivor punishments, reduced agency
Killer buffs.
It's a popular obsession theme with BHVR and updates.
i guess we are not falling for this worn off ragebait this time
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@TheArbiter said:
Obviously we won't really know the full impact till it hits live servers, but really what is preventing people from using one of their thousands of unused 'luck offerings' to keep the option to struggle on the hook every match.
pretty much lets you know which player can be bled out
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@lauren_xox said:
update looks good, but the 4% bit I get some people do it just to go next, but what about if everyone on the floor and you need that 4% to try and get the off to help the team? And have to use up a spot for a perk just for it, is abit disappointing imo! There probably not a way to keep that and find another way? Only time I really do use tbh is if k is slugging and everyone is downed and I try to see if I can unhook to help!
I never dc even if I get camped, tunnelled I just finish the game and move on and try better next and so on
you just answered your own question, it literally brings a possibility to let RNG decide further flow of the match when all other survivors are downed
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@sleepy_knight said:
The 4% has given so many great moments. Would it be possible to not remove the attemps but instead if they fail just remove the timer reduction? That "punishment" is the reason why people can leave early in the first place.
4%s were flawed not only in griefing aspect, but also RNG aspect where one successful kobe could have significant impact on match outcome so i'm very glad they removed it.
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@ChainsLogic said:
Killer
1 - Wesker's hug tech - Wesker is supposed to slightly bump off environment when colliding with it, however with hug tech he can just straight up slide around certain loops, eliminating a big part of his counterplay. I like playing as/vs Wesker but hug tech is unfair and shouldn't be a part of his gameplay
2 - Oni's 180 flick - No longer considered unintended by devs. Regardless, it's both unfun for the survivor, and less skillful for the Oni player to be able to fully turn around to hit a survivor. Restricting it to 90 or even 100 degrees would be more fair
3 - Hillbilly's 180 flick - When Hillbilly uses his LoPro Chains add-on, after breaking a door/pallet, with high enough dpi, he will be able to do a 180 turn possibly leading to some unfair hits. Less impactful after the add-on was nerfed to only injure/deep wound, instead of injure/down, but it definitely should be fixed
4 - Twins bounce tech - There are some spots in various maps that allow Victor to slide over them/to their side, possibly giving unfair injuries/downs to Twins. While an already buggy and unpopular killer, it's definitely something that should be looked into
5 - Various Ghoul techs - Kidnap tech, space Ghoul, etc… There is a couple, and hopefully devs are aware, and working on fixing them
Survivor
1 - Cj tech - Basically if a survivor is downed in front of a thrown pallet, if a killer attempts to break it, another survivor vaulting it will force the killer to pick up, allowing the survivor to vault back and flashlight save. While rarely successful, it's still annoying, and the fact it happens because you can't separate the keybinds for pallet break/pick up is the true problem. Simply separate pick up and other actions in controls, with both sharing the same key by default, but with the option of rebinding 1 of the 2 to gain more control of your actions
2 - Heal tech - Done at the exit gates by having a survivor heal the downed one, removing the option of picking up that survivor for the killer, and forcing them to hit the survivor, possibly allowing everyone to leave. Simply allow the killer to pick up regardless of the survivors healing to fix this. It also makes sense lore wise, since all killers are already strong or buffed by the entity
3 - Point tech - By pointing or waving, survivors can bypass the downed animation giving them more time to crawl out of gates. How a survivor falls should be determined by the direction of the attack and whether the survivor was moving or not, animations like waving or pointing should be ignored
4 - Flashbang/Head On saves while animation locked - If the killer is grabbing someone entering/exiting a locker, working on a gen, vaulting a window while injured, etc… they can still lose the down because a survivor with a flashbang/Head On is nearby. We have blind protection while grabbing survivors out of lockers (Different from survivors entering/exiting a locker) but otherwise we can lose a survivor due to being unlucky. Give killer a blind/stun immunity during any grab/interrupt action, and extend it for 1 second after the killer can start moving to avoid flashbang/Head On saves right after the animation ends. Here is a link for all actions that can be interrupted -
https://deadbydaylight.wiki.gg/wiki/Interrupt#Interruptable_Interactions
5 - Shift tech - The game considers you in chase if you have a los on a running survivor, and you remain in chase for 8 seconds once the los is lost. The problem is the way the game detects chase is tied to pressing the run key, which can lead to things like not gaining bloodlust, despite seeing the survivor fast vaulting a pallet for example. This can also lead to windows in some loops not getting blocked during chase
killer:
1. Wesker's hugtech requires huge amount of skill to pull off and is very inconsistent, with it's counter being just...exiting the current loop.
2. Oni's 180 flicks, like really? Unfun and less skillful for killer player? During the time i've played Oni i was getting praises for 180 flicking very often and people were amazed by it. Not to mention that walking down a survivor is much more optimal and less skillful than 180s.
3. Billy's LoPro 180s? Bro those are literally just a pure clip material, LoPro's most optimal usage is to just chop through the pallet and hit survivor that dropped it.
4.Bounce tech on Twins requires great map knowledge and also requires skill to pull off.
5. Kidnap tech on Ghoul might be a bit unfair tho.
Survivor techs:
1. CJ tech is literally the most easily counterable surv tech so i don't mind it's existence at all.
2. Heal tech is like only useful in scenario where everybody is at gates lol.
3. Point tech is also a nothing burger tbh.
4. Flashbangs have been nerfed and now dropping it right below killer can't stun killer. Only thing about Head On that is problematic is "Head On CJ" where surv crawls toa locker with teammate having Head On. Killer will always prioritize picking up instead of opening locker, which is uncounterable.
5. Shift tech is the most difficult survivor tech to pull off and i don't mind it staying in game at all.
All in all, why do yall want the game to be as much linear as possible? Why dumbing it down and removing all forms of skill expression?
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/446012/revert-oni
Now you know how us console players have felt since oh I don't know…Oni's release. Let us have this. Although they should make it right on your end too. However, that doesn't mean it should be removed on our end.
i mean, we all know that killer role is in general pretty much controller unfriendly and since K+M support for dbd has been announced i don't think Oni should've ever been touched. Now they made him absolutely miserable to play on K+M just so that controller players can feel only the portion of what K+M players felt, not to mention how bugged Oni is now too, all thanks to deciding to change Oni in that aspect so that he can become more controlled friendly.
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i think genrushing is a wrong word to use for this kind of strat since genrushing is using toolboxes with BNPs and gen speedup perks to gain advantage of pumping the gens asap rather than relying on wasting killer's time.
The actual problem is early gen splitting, how easy it is and how little punishment there is for it.
Yes the new "survivor grouping at the beginning of match" is going to help with reducing RNG aspect of gen splitting ease, but it will still be a strong meta for survs.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932262#Comment_3932262
Matchmaking would only make tunnelling consistently punishable at higher levels, though.
The whole point of tunnelling is that the chase is heavily stacked in the killer's favour and the survivor team needs either coordination or pretty significant skill in chase to overcome it. Matchmaking being more consistent wouldn't help lower or mid ranked matches with tunnelling at all.
and it's okay for matchmaking to do so because that way everybody would see how extremely situational the strat is rather than constantly reading "tunneling is overpowered" takes.
The whole point of tunnelling is that the chase is heavily stacked in the killer's favour and the survivor team needs either coordination or pretty significant skill in chase to overcome it. Matchmaking being more consistent wouldn't help lower or mid ranked matches with tunnelling at all.
i mean yeah, game requires huge amount of macro knowledge in order to compete with truly good killers.
But matchmaking would actually help even lower ones because those bruteforce tunneling players would quickly get out of lower skill levels and then they'd just face the wall at some point. Every PvP game i played has something that basically stomps newer players (champs like Nasus in League that prey on other players not knowing wave management; Negev and PP Bizon in CS2 etc.) but people don't really have good time when they suddenly get to know their strat gets hard punished if they bruteforce it.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932222#Comment_3932222
I feel like this is a charicature of a position. Not that no one holds this view, per se, but I don't see that in this conversation.
Personally, I think that killers have a variety of tools available to them. Things like camping, tunneling, slugging are some that get focus, but there's also chase, objective slowdown, spreading pressure, switching targets (and knowing when to), or even things like totem defense, depending on your build.
Those are all base kit options for the killer, and knowing how to apply those tools, and when, is, imo, a measure of skill.
Camping, tunneling, and slugging, though tend to be used as "the only way" some people know how to play. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And because these strategies are fairly simple to execute and hard to counter, it also makes them effective as the only tool people use for quite a while (or for some people, all they ever use). And, when those players have stomped teams at their skill level using only these strategies, they don't learn to use anything else, let alone learning when to change up to another tactic.
The discussion started by focusing on "people who always tunnel", and you're implying that "people should never tunnel" is the implication, but those aren't the only options on the table.
All of those things I listed, including camping, tunneling, and slugging, should be situationally used. And it's a measure of player skill, game sense, and game knowledge to understand when those situations arise.
And once people do learn to use more of the tools available to them, they naturally become better players. Which I believe was mainly the point OP is making here regarding "fundamentals".
All of those things I listed, including camping, tunneling, and slugging, should be
situationallyused. And it's a measure of player skill, game sense, and game knowledge to understand when those situations arise.And once people
dolearn to use more of the tools available to them, they naturally become better players. Which I believe was mainly the point OP is making here regarding "fundamentals".but the problem here is that game doesn't have proper matchmaking nor is average player willing to punish killer for instantly locking into the match with intention to apply these strats right from the start.
When you have a lot of successful matches bruteforcing specific strategy against not very good opponents, you will build this mindset up.
Matchmaking needs to improve, drastically. This way this type of killer players will evolve into actually being aware of when they actually can tunnel, camp or slug because they will definitely not be able to bruteforce these strats every match again at all.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
This is the only pvp community where one side gets hate for… trying to win the game?
sad truth of asymmetrical games unfortunately
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932173#Comment_3932173
It's really rare someone ever truly griefs, most of the time they just make mistakes and that's okay. The problem is: DBD is an unforgiving game against the strongest killers, and expects an unreasonable amount of knowledge and experience to perform well/counter said killers.
I myself don't care for trying that hard, I play games to have fun, not to win, but I also don't like having all agency taken away from me either. Ghoul does that for me and so does Nurse/Blight (In 1v4). Legion in 2v8 makes any killer they are paired with incredibly annoying to face, they need dealt with, they draw games out, give their partner too much information and make the casual experience hell.
That's my issue rn: 2v8 against the strongest teams is really unforgiving rn, 1v4 against the strongest killers is also really unforgiving.
If we want strong perks/new fun classes/fun events, the strongest killers need dealt with.It's really rare someone ever truly griefs, most of the time they just make mistakes and that's okay. The problem is: DBD is an unforgiving game against the strongest killers, and expects an unreasonable amount of knowledge and experience to perform well/counter said killers.
i don't mean just griefing like intentionally trolling your team, my point is also about people avoiding gens and just lurking around every chase to play for saves and nothing else and other similar types of gameplay.
I don't request mich of knowledge from people, i just expect them to play the game the way it's meant to be played. If i take a chase and intentionally avoid zones where important gens are to be repaired, they should stick to gens and not just wander around the map looking for totems to boon etc.
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1v4 soloQ is unfun because you will often have teammates literally griefing instead of actually playing the game.
2v8 as surv is boring because it's too easy and uninteractive
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he is fine atm. Maybe a lilbit hit too hard, but tbh his skill floor is still too low for how much he can do
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my main point of frustration with the game is the fact that it progressively dumps on skill overall with an excuse that BHVR wants to help newer players.
Latest example being Kaneki upon release (literally 0 skill floor upon release while being a high mobility beast of a killer), Brutal zoning Blight, aura reading Nurse, further basekit changes to survivors to counter already very weak strats and 2v8 design.
Like why didn't BHVR improve matchmaking, tutorial system, advertise guides and instead chose to make it easier for new players while the actual new players won't benefit from it at all, while veteran players will be able to abuse it at max?
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931135#Comment_3931135
way too strong? These strategies are dead at high skill levels unless survivors make chains of critical mistakes. If you want to actually have a successful tunneling session you need to have very short first chase and first down + to actually catch unhooked survivor off guard in order to be able to tunnel them (or just have survivors not touch any gens during and after first chase).
I have high doubts that's the case. It only makes sense that eliminating a survivor as fast as possible is pretty strong. Sure, if the killer has a long first chase and the survivor being tunneled continues to stay alive long against the killer, the survivors will win. But that's the case if the killer doesn't tunnel as well. This game isn't in a state anymore though where survivors have to make many mistakes to go down quickly. The killer just has to outplay or outmindgame the survivor a few times and they go down.
"most people play video games to have fun" is a sentence i always hear when it's about "me win=fun; me lose=no fun"
And again, i'll take cs2 as an example, people who just start playing comp and premier are literally greeted by dying constantly, people yelling at them, them being votekicked and...they still decide to play and after couple of hundred, and then thousand hours, results truly show.
If you are willing to just run around the map and play sandbox, goof around with friends in customs.
And keeping accent on "camping/tunneling" unfun is really tiresome, what about newer killers being greeted by people popping 3 gens in the matter of first chase? Why is killer struggling always treated as skill issue, while survivor struggling is treated as game imbalance and suddenly...caring about newer players?
I don't think yall actually care about new players at all, yall care about tools new players would get to counter those strats becoming available to you because you aware you could abuse them much better.
That's simply bullocks. There are enough people that don't have the mindset of win=fun and lose=unfun. Sure, there are some people like that, for both sides, but they aren't the norm. It's clear as day that many people find tunneling and camping unfun not just because they led to lost games. I don't know what to say if you actually believe that.
Tunneling and camping are also definitely less of a skill issue on the survivors side than losing 3 gens after the first chase is a skill issue on the killers side. With that said, gen rush can still be a slight problem and it would be nice if BHVR found some way to alleviate the frustrations that come from it as well. The issue of gen rush just isn't as pressing as the issues of tunneling and camping are.
so you think gain of killer players because of one popular licence character necessarily means queues will struggle?
I think with this chapter being particularly big, and gaining a particular amount of new players, that the queue times for killers could definitely become worse if more killer players than survivor players end up staying with DBD.
have you ever watched an actual match against high level teams? I have so many good survivor friends and we would all love to test your "tunneling and camping are strong strategies statement" by playing a no restrictions custom match to simulate pubs and show you how "strong" those strats are.
Next, let's analyze your "good in too many situations" statement:
Tunneling: good only if you manage to get a very quick first down and team goes for a fast unhook OR if whole team doesn't touch any gens during first chase (very rare occasion against good survivors). Too many situations? Where?
Camping: good only if you manage to get a down close to a 3-gen hook with a killer that actually has strong camping potential (Billy, Huntress, Trickster for example). In modern world where good survivors literally know to actually force a down away from 3-gen hook, good luck trying to camp because you are going to end up with 1K at MAX. Too many situations where it is strong? Lol
Yes I have. I have seen comp games where tunneling, and to an extent also camping, were prevelant. The more important aspect though is that solo queue simply doesn't have the coordination needed most of the time to counter tunneling effectively. What we've got here is a strategy that is far easier to pull off than to counterplay. Which is just bad design.
You also don't need that short of a first chase to get good use out of tunneling. A normal chase can be enough in many cases.
Camping is the same thing. It hurts solo queue more than swf anyways, especially with the anti-camp meter still not shown on the hud.
i mean, the same part of community that regularly complains about these 3 strats hates way too many killers in roster lol.
Dude where do you get those stats from? Lmao. I have serious doubts that's the case.
I am also curious. If camping and tunneling are bad strategies at high mmr anyways, why would you be against nerfing them if it simply helps all solo queue players and lower mmr players have much more fun with the game?
I have high doubts that's the case. It only makes sense that eliminating a survivor as fast as possible is pretty strong. Sure, if the killer has a long first chase and the survivor being tunneled continues to stay alive long against the killer, the survivors will win.
early 3v1 is the best game phase killer could have, but managing to establish an early 3v1 relies so much on trying to force survivors to make mistakes, which is very, very difficult on high skill levels.
On the other hand, the main goal of survivors is to waste as much of killer's time as possible in order to make it possible for at least one teammate to be able to consistently be on gens. Which leads to the next point.
But that's the case if the killer doesn't tunnel as well. This game isn't in a state anymore though where survivors have to make many mistakes to go down quickly. The killer just has to outplay or outmindgame the survivor a few times and they go down.
you make it sound like outplayong/outmindgaming survivors is something such simple.
First there are mindgameable and unmindgameable tiles.
Unmindgameable tiles are the ones where killer simply can't mindgame an actually good survivor in any way, no matter how high skill of that killer is. Those tiles are most often shack and some MacMillan fillers for example.
Mindgameable tiles are the ones where killer can mindgame a survivor, but suvivor can also counter any mindgame attempt through something called checkspots.
So as you can see, this is something not nearly as simple as you think, not to mention that any mistake made by survivor in first chase leading to earlier down can be mitigated by letting that surv stay on a hook longer.
That's simply bullocks. There are enough people that don't have the mindset of win=fun and lose=unfun. Sure, there are some people like that, for both sides, but they aren't the norm. It's clear as day that many people find tunneling and camping unfun not just because they led to lost games. I don't know what to say if you actually believe that.
"omg this killer tunnels/camps/slugs/uses gen perks, they are not playing for fun at all"
:bringing meta perks every match:
:egoing over killer when you beat them:
yes, many people have the winning=fun mentality inside this community and many are trying to cover it up.
Nobody asked any killer if they have fun playing against sabo squads, bully squads and early gen splitting in conbo with meta oerks, bodyblocking etc. It's always "who cares, we had fun".
Tunneling and camping are also definitely less of a skill issue on the survivors side than losing 3 gens after the first chase is a skill issue on the killers side. With that said, gen rush can still be a slight problem and it would be nice if BHVR found some way to alleviate the frustrations that come from it as well. The issue of gen rush just isn't as pressing as the issues of tunneling and camping are.
LOL, if you haven't been informed, even on highest skill levels it's expected to have minimum of 2 gens pop by the moment first chase ends and survivor gets hooked.
Early gen splitting is still extremely powerful, not to mention you are forced to run Corrupt Intervention every match in order to somehow mitigate loses made after first chase and actually try to establish a 3-gen later.
The term "genrushing" is completely wrong to use because it technically isn't genrushing, it's basic strategy used by survivors where one is chased and three are on gens. Genrushing is when people actually bring fullon loadouts that helps finish gens faster.
Tunneling and camping on the other hand are easier to counter than ever and you actually need a very specific situation in the match for those strategies to be worth it.
I think with this chapter being particularly big, and gaining a particular amount of new players, that the queue times for killers could definitely become worse if more killer players than survivor players end up staying with DBD.
no matter which chapter, queues on my server (EU) were always pretty fine as both killer and survivor.
Yes I have. I have seen comp games where tunneling, and to an extent also camping, were prevelant. The more important aspect though is that solo queue simply doesn't have the coordination needed most of the time to counter tunneling effectively. What we've got here is a strategy that is far easier to pull off than to counterplay. Which is just bad design.
have you ever tried to notice what led to a successful tunneling in those matches or you straight went to a conclusion that those strats are powerful without some deeper thought?
In terms of coordination, against huge majority of killers in pubs, you can make magnificient results against tunneling/camping killers even in soloQ.
The only thing we needed for soloQ to fight camping was basekit Kindred.
You also don't need that short of a first chase to get good use out of tunneling. A normal chase can be enough in many cases.
normal chase + greeding first surv on hook for a bit or just straight up unhooking for them to get anti-tunneling perks value is more than enough to counter tunneling.
Camping is the same thing. It hurts solo queue more than swf anyways, especially with the anti-camp meter still not shown on the hud.
anti-facecamp meter shouldn't be buffed at all, it does it's job of countering toxic killers well. The biggest thing about camping that hurts soloQ is people rushing for unhooks. As i said, basekit Kindred was the only thing ever needed to fight camping as soloQ on top level.
Dude where do you get those stats from? Lmao. I have serious doubts that's the case.
i'm not getting stats, i'm just watching socials and streams regularly and so many people complain so much about so many killers.
I am also curious. If camping and tunneling are bad strategies at high mmr anyways, why would you be against nerfing them if it simply helps all solo queue players and lower mmr players have much more fun with the game?
- removal of skill aspect of countering killer strats (which is actually legit fun) completely and turning more matches into free wins with 0 skill input aka. drastically lowering skill expression of survivor role;
- tunneling and camping actually require skill to pull offon high skill levels (and i'm not talking about imaginary high MMR in this nonexistent matchmaking) because you have to read how the match goes, understand when sylurvs make a mistake and take advantage of it;
- because spreading hooks is punished harder than ever and this will further lead to a dead game on high skill levels.
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@DeadTeDy013 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931164#Comment_3931164
I know plenty of consistent 4k before gens are done that get their wins without tunneling. Whether they're being serious or not going into the game. One of them I regularly play with. Tunneling has been a strat (in my experience- 2k hrs and have been playing since before they lost the license for Stranger things) that newer players, or players that are just done with the game and don't want to admit it and therefore become bitter and toxic use. Tunneling is not healthy game play for either side. As a skilled survivor and a newer Killer, I'm able to get 4ks fairly regularly without tunnelling. It's all about knowing the killer you're playing, knowing the map, and understanding the different ways survivors play. And learning all of that takes time and patience. If you're tunnelling, or condoning Tunneling to any degree (the survivors running into a dead zone and being the easier target I kind of understand), you haven't truly learned the game or it's mechanics, and you don't show you have the patience to do so.
My opinion based on my experience and exposure to the community.
i win most of my matches without tunneling and camping in the cases where those two would be the best decision to make due to mistakes survivors make.
Is that because you can truly win without those? No, it's because of difference in skill between you and average survivor