NarkoTri1er
NarkoTri1er
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@SoGo said:
Okay, so, I use 3-gens to my advantage a lot. I mean, why not, if the opportunity is there.
I get a gen blocked by the mechanic every 40-ish games. Maybe even less.
The main 2 perks that are the problem here are Eruption and Surge. Those two block the gens rather quickly.
But,
with Eruption, the issue is worse, as you only have 4 uses. You can use Surge 8 times on a single gen, no problem. (That's about 80% of a gen if I'm not wrong. Pretty good value imo.) But Eruption? 4 kicks to trigger it, and 4 uses. (That's 40%+ 20% from kicks so 60%.)
yea but at least Eruption has consistency compared to Surge, which is quite easy to counter by forcing downs away from 3-gen. Not to mention how this perk is very bad for any killer that utilizes M2 for downs (Blight, Nurse, Oni, Billy, Dracula etc.)
And tbh, 90% of thematches where i use Eruption end before i even reach gen kick limit. It's such a valuable perk for protecting gens if you know how to use it to full potential.
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not really stopped but my playrate on Oni has significantly dropped now when i started learning Billy since he now feels not nearly as satisfying as he used to be prior to Kaneki PTB.
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@DeBecker said:
Well, at least killers have found something to doompost on again. So business as usual.
what exactly is doomposting here? Separate spawning is literally an open road to easy early splitting which is the strongest survivor tactic to use, with the new Shroud of Separation offering you will now literally have 100% chance for the whole team to spawn separately, while killer can only bring Shroud of Vanishing if they want to prevent you from using the offering.
I swear to god so many ppl here don't realize how drastically separate spawning affects match and how unfair it is when you have brutally easy and quick early gen splitting.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3942478#Comment_3942478
Easier, actually. Because as it stands right now, you might start on all four gens, or you might start grouped up. Or you might start out two by two. Now, the meta offering guarantees a split gen. I'd rather spawn rules stay as-is than be forced to run a Green shroud every game or just… lose.
since that's case, Sac wards meta bye bye, welcome new Shroud of Vanishing meta, screw cakes and BPS
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more excited for the stat tracker and anti go next stuff tbh
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what even is the actual point of making Shroud of Binding basekit if they were gonna add a new meta offering to basically make splitting gens as easy as it is atm?
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3941990#Comment_3941990
Honestly, my definition of tunneling is focusing on one particular survivor, to a point where the killer would drop whatever they are doing just to chase them again, as soon as they get unhooked.
That I think is problematic.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3942047#Comment_3942047
Again: in nine years and thousands of players, every single survivor who, at one point or another, lost to a killer who was multihooking was a bad survivor?
That just isn't true.
Again: in nine years and thousands of players, every single survivor who, at one point or another, lost to a killer who was multihooking was a bad survivor?
That just isn't true.
not necessarily a single survivor that loses to multihooking killer is bad because every individual survivor depends on their team and if you are good but still get into bad team, you will lose nonetheless
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@RJoyYourJoy19 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3942054#Comment_3942054
So dishonest lol. Never change, killer mains
dishonest? You want to tell me it's not your random teammate who destroys your match by turning it into 3v1 at first 2 minutes but killer instead?
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@RJoyYourJoy19 said:
Not only can you not get bullied in a video game, the bully squads are ridiculously uncommon, it's just that too many killers instantly start screaming "bully squad" the second someone gets a sabo or a flashlight save
Also, how are killers not getting anything? The patch coming out in the few days is the most killer sided patch we've ever had and you're out here panicking over announced anti-tunnel changes that are probably gonna be something like BT lasting 15 seconds lmao
"most killer sided patch" because it combats people who destroy soloQ lobbies by giving up early into the match and forcing early 3v1?
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@PatchNoir said:
title, i came across a very sus streamer from epic, have video on youtube
Off the Record can tank hit like this even if survivor is in the healthy state as long as they haven't done conspicuous action during 80s timer.
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@drag27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3941483#Comment_3941483
so you want her gutted is what your saying?
i would only agree for Heavy Panting addon to be nerfed because it makes 2nd blinks hot way too easy, other nerfs in terms of blink attacks would just be unnecessary
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3941831#Comment_3941831
How can nine years of gameplay not be proof of anything?
I say it again: nine years of gameplay where countless killer games were won by killers who multihooked. Nine years, covering every single DBD meta, matchmaking system, powers and perks.
And, in nine years and thousands of players, every single survivor who, at one point or another, lost to a killer who was multihooking was a bad survivor?
Sorry, but that just isn't true.
every team that loses to multihooking killer, especially the mid to lower tier one IS objectively bad.
Why? Because you are not taking advantage of killer wasting their own time and actively avoiding tunneling one person.
Spreading hooks is something your team would want the most from killer in order to have much easier time winning. So, what's up with the fact that people don't do it? Simple, nonexistent matchmaking and the fact it took years for BHVR only to announce that they are working to improve it again (hopefully drastically).
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3941159#Comment_3941159
It's not though.
She even mentions "anti hiding" which is pretty much the nail in the coffin for survivor stealth gameplay.
We've also had healing, or maybe the better description is the "always be healthy" meta deleted with coh and medkit reworks.
And, lets not forget that people said literally this exact "you're boosted" and "survivors will completely fall apart without it" when dead hard (both times), and MFT got nerfed.
She even mentions "anti hiding" which is pretty much the nail in the coffin for survivor stealth gameplay.
they are introducing mechanic to prevent excessive hiding without any objective being done for prolonged periods, not anti-stealth mechanic at all. Stealthing will still be very viable and useful.
We've also had healing, or maybe the better description is the "always be healthy" meta deleted with coh and medkit reworks.
game is literally extremely close to the state when CoH was in it's old state in terms of healing. Medkits are still very strong and quite literally the most powerful item in the game, along with Syringes being absolutely unfair free reset addon. Healing is still meta.
Now contrary to all these, tunneling has two crucial basic gameplay counters:
- chase knowledge;
- not unhooking in killer's face.
Now be honest, but absolutely dead honest, what is the percentage of matches where you see people fullfilling these two? Average soloQ match against tunneler is literally seeing people fall like pigeons when shot less than 1 minute into the match. Even worse, there are so many people who just prey close to hook waiting for the killer to hook so that they can instantly unhook survivor before killer even leaves 32m radius.
Also, tunneling is a basic strategy and comparing it to usage of perks is beyond wild.
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@mecca said:
BHVR balances very differently between both roles. They balance killer for the worst possible players while survivor is balanced for the best players. It is why survivors are always nerfed while killers are unchecked. It doesn't matter nurse or Blight break the game because they don't care.
this is literally completely false, survivor role has overall be more balanced around newer players, while this trend for killer peaked with Kaneki who was strong on release, while having a really low skill floor.
Same as some top-tier perks and addons on survivor side aren't being looked upon at all, Blight and Nurse remain untouched (even though Nurse would be in absolutely perfect state if her synergy with aura reading perks got gutted).
P.S. Please play both roles equally before actually acting like is so killer sided just because you lose very often :)
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@Yippiekiyah said:
It says a lot about the balance of those maps that survivors always want to play on them.
Azarov Key is actually okay offering because whole realm is actually well balanced, i'm just not sure if there is still a bug with more pallets spawning on Autohaven realm in general so that they abuse it
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3940423#Comment_3940423
Exactly this tbh, Killers who've reached a higher MMR by using these strategies, will slowly adjust to an MMR where they're more able to compete without them, same for Survivors with the extreme hiding. Their MMR will all balance out.
but why are we implementing further anti-tunneling, anti-camping and anti-slugging changes without pushing SBMM changes through first? I mean these strats are already extremely situational in actual high skill levels
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3941397#Comment_3941397
isn't comp entirely separate and don't they shackle survivors hard since they're too strong?
comp scene is separate from pubs and is played in customs yeah, but nah, they don't really shackle survivors as most killers average 6 hooks at most even with strict rules and hard restrictions on survivors.
Not to mention that some of the most obnoxious survivor perks like OTR, Reassurance and Babysitter are generally banned across all killers + it's strictly forbidden for teams to have more than one of the same perk. Addons are strictly limited to green ones too, meaning stuff like Syringes and BNPs are strictly forbidden to use, same on killer side with some exceptions (e.g. Billy is allowed to use iri engravings because majority of his green addons are terrible)
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she literally only needs her synergy with aura perks removed and Heavy Panting addon nerfed and then she will be a perfect killer.
The reason average player just finds her extremely unfair is because she requires more macro knowledge than any other killer, and macro is exactly the aspect dbd community is terrible at.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3941296#Comment_3941296
I said "dozens" as in plural. If you're going to quote me at least do it accurately. It could be a couple hundred and it wouldn't matter. It's an insignificant fraction of a fraction of the playerbase that doesn't represent anything positive for the culture of the game and shouldn't be looked to for guidance on balance. Winstreaks and comp mentality are killing the game for the average player that just wants to have a fun semi-competitive match.
When we had somewhat accurate matchmaking winstreak killer streamers whined until they got what we have now. That is, 95% matches where they don't have to break a sweat while reading chat and 4k'ing at 5 gens some poor players that just wanted to hop on for a couple matches after a long day of work.
@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3941296#Comment_3941296
I said "dozens" as in plural. If you're going to quote me at least do it accurately. It could be a couple hundred and it wouldn't matter. It's an insignificant fraction of a fraction of the playerbase that doesn't represent anything positive for the culture of the game and shouldn't be looked to for guidance on balance. Winstreaks and comp mentality are killing the game for the average player that just wants to have a fun semi-competitive match.
When we had somewhat accurate matchmaking winstreak killer streamers whined until they got what we have now. That is, 95% matches where they don't have to break a sweat while reading chat and 4k'ing at 5 gens some poor players that just wanted to hop on for a couple matches after a long day of work.
30k+ players is not just some "fraction of a fraction" but let's move on.
It's an insignificant fraction of a fraction of the playerbase that doesn't represent anything positive for the culture of the game and shouldn't be looked to for guidance on balance. Winstreaks and comp mentality are killing the game for the average player that just wants to have a fun semi-competitive match.
1. those people literally want the game to be as balanced as possible for both sides so that none of the sides gets stomped, but your logic is that game getting more balanced is somehow...less fun?
2. Many winstreaks are not even done by comp players at all and it literally isn't comp mentality that is ruining the game, it's literally people that want the game to be as easy for their side to win as possible to the point where they don't need to invest any time into learning due to game being on full autopilot. Not to mention people who simply play to cause frustrations to other players (bully squads, killers bleeding people out for no apparent reason).
When we had somewhat accurate matchmaking winstreak killer streamers whined until they got what we have now. That is, 95% matches where they don't have to break a sweat while reading chat and 4k'ing at 5 gens some poor players that just wanted to hop on for a couple matches after a long day of work.
people who were complaining about MMR system bring too "loose" were the ones made fun of and community was massively pushing narrative that MMR shouldn't exist. Yall think it shouldn't exist and then complain about people making winstreaks pretty much thanks to bad matchmaking.
Ohh and btw, i also have a full time job, also hop on the game for couple of matches and i still find it more fun to have an actual match where everyone gives their best rather than stomping some random soloQ squad with fresh install in their team.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3940849#Comment_3940849
Let me guess, it only counts as high mmr if its the dozens of cOmP dBd pLaYeRs that no one watches or cares about?
no, nobody is talking about "dozen of comp players" (which aren't really just a dozen, gotta disappoint you) but about poor matchmaking yall are constantly weaponizing to talk nonsense about balance when the problem is literally MMR mismatching <3
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this is not symmetric deathmatch, this is asymmetric game
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idk, if there are more and more tools to counter those strats and those strats are already extremely situational at high skill levels, i think it's time for a self check to see if there maybe isn't a problem in you as a player
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3940872#Comment_3940872
What's currently wrong with Oni?
his 180s are now completely different, too easy to do, but you can't do 1-frames nor shoulder flicks anymore, nor you can flick when facing the wall because flick doesn't snap anymore, but instead basically does a very slight lean forward and then makes a turn.
On top of that he has variety of bugs, such as inability to mindgame with faking your demon dash activation because you will just move forward and not be able to do anything for 2-3 whole seconds.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3940957#Comment_3940957
Why should those players have to play against "an actual competent squad", when Killer Mains themselves only rarely play against those players?
everyone should play against players of their skill level, including killer mains who act like "omg i have to tunnel and camp every match to win" just so that they can realize those are extremely situational and not go-to strats for every match because their opponents are guaranteed to have one weak link due to soloQ players being bigger part of matchmaking pool
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@Firellius said:
I'll stop using kill rates as evidence when the usual 'game is insanely survivor-sided' argument is supported by anything more than 'everyone knows that lol'.
Until then, bad stats still trump the 'trust me bro' card.
well yk how most of these situations where ppl act like "omg killer is so op and easy to win" and then other people offer them to play fullon optimal match against an actual competent squad? They become silent, absolutely silent.
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my friends who own consoles are already prepared. Too sad some killers had to be ruined for PC just to be better for controller even though they announced keyboard + mouse support (poor Oni)
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@Pulsar said:
"I don't believe it because it goes against what I want to believe"
We've known that KR's have been an issue since before this latest epidemic. 60% is far too high and doesn't include DC's.
Perhaps we should look into making the game more enjoyable for everyone?
well, if they can excluse hook suicides, then they have been lying to us when they said they can't punish people for giving up on hook because they technically can't tell if person tried to use 4% or just wanted to go next.
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@Nicholas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3939784#Comment_3939784
DS is a chase extender. The four seconds, of which 1.6 or so are stuck in the release animation, are mediocre. It's a one-time, limited perk with a laundry list of deactivation triggers and a particular and narrow window of use. If the tunnel falls outside this window, then it won't be helpful. And if you're unfortunate enough to get rescued after the generators are completed, it's useless. I don't see value in DS because it doesn't work when you need it most - if you're a capable chaser - and barely works in other circumstances.
you pretty much need to stop looking at perk with the "it needs input and has conditions = bas perk" because it's a perk that requires certain level of player input to be used to the full extent, not to mention how so many players are infested with the "if killer doesn't eat the DS up, i wasted the perk" mindset. If killer doesn't tunnel you when you have DS, you literally still got the value from it, killer doesn't tunnel you.
And you can still tell your teammates to 99 the last gen if you have DS.
Only ways you actually truly won't get value of this perk in any way is if you either position yourself terribly or simply can't resist wasting 2s tbagging killer after they eat the DS up.
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@francesinhalover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3939122#Comment_3939122
killrate 60%… AT THE HIGHEST MMR. we weren't given stats for low mmr or average mmr
KILLERS WIN 60% OF THE TIME VS PRO SURVIVORS.
highest MMR? Are you literally aware that the "highest MMR we are talking about is so easy to achieve that you can reach it with 200h only? This is like saying Gold-Platinum players in League of Legends are PRO players
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no because they even shared they couldn't punish players for "griefing" because they don't technically know if they tried kobeing to unhook themselves or to just go next, directly implying that those matches are included in stats.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3940163#Comment_3940163
Eruption is not that good.
It can, and will screw you over by getting to the 3-gen limit fast.
Surge is just better in every way, imo.
Surge gets obliterated by survivors forcing downs away from critical gens.
In terms of Eruption, your match will pretty much end before gen kick limit hops in, it's #1 best perk for 3-gen protection.
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@Langweilig said:
I‘m gonna trigger the downvotes on me for sure.
Ds in my opinion is a bad perk. It is way too situational and that is how I decide whether or not perks are good. 90% of my matches the killer doesn‘t tunnel me or only my teammates, so ds goes to waste all the time. Even when it triggers and you manage to activate it, it doesn‘t do much against all the popular killers and they just down you a few seconds afterwards again.
it's not situational nor bad at all. Not to mention that you are not only getting value of it if killer eats it up.
You are bringing a perk in preparation for EVENTUAL tunneling.
So all the cases where you actually get the value of perk:
- Killer eats DS up - most obvious one
- Killer doesn't tunnel - you are safe from getting chased any time soon OR you can be annoying for killer and force them to waste more time trying to get rid of you obstructing their other chase
- Killer slugs - other survivor can either reset or you can pick yourself up by combining DS with antislug perks, killer in a lose-lose situation.
This is situation with quite some actual meta perks, people think those are bad simply because people either don't know what getting value of perks is or they simply don't know how to use the perk properly.
The best counterpart perk on killer side for this is Eruption. So many people underestimate it and literally think it's bad while it's in fact one of the best slowdowns and simply the best perk for setting up 3-gens.
There is simply difference between perk that give little to no value no matter what play you or killer make and perks that give great value in specific circumstances you can force very often.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3939986#Comment_3939986
A survivor using locker or plot twist is, by definition, not bodyblocking, so why are you targeting them if not specifically to tunnel them out?
And UB will still waste a ton of extra time plus a single use perk. Soul Guard won't even work unless the survivors intentionally leave your hex up, which benefits you more than them.
survivor using locker or plot twist is literally forcing you to either leave them so that they are safe (and heal completely with Plot Twist) or eat up the DS. Because you can still choose to chase them and they will just hop into locker or Plot Twist when aggro has been taken, meaning they saved time for their teammate lol.
And acting like UB will be bad too or Soul Guard (basically guaranteed value against killers with possibility of constant map pressure like Billy and Blight because Ruin is almost always their go-to perk) pretty much speaks volume on how you are not aware of how to actually nullify killer's slug pressure, have time on your side because killer wasted time chasing you anyways completely (and indirectly getting full value out of DS regardless).
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3939941#Comment_3939941
Except you aren't just carrying those around in your pocket.
Maps, tiles, and pallets have been consistently nerfed over the years, and you don't get to choose where you are hooked, or where the dead zones are.
In fact, the only way you might even have a chance at getting to a pallet is to have a perk that shows you where to go immediately... And Windows of opportunity is literally one of the most complained about perks.
If your "anti tunnel" protection relies heavily on your opponent's choice of hook, RNG, and you running a supporting perk, then that is not a perk that is "in a good place".
how long till we stop exaggerating changes made to maps and act like maps have been "consistently nerfed"? You have cases like Ormond Lake Mine which is basically Wreckers Yard/Coal Tower level of balanced, minor nerfs to Eyrie with main (still very strong mapfor survs and basically only maps that habe neen absolutely nuked are Haddonfield and Vecna's map.
In fact, the only way you might even have a chance at getting to a pallet is to have a perk that shows you where to go immediately... And Windows of opportunity is literally one of the most complained about perks.
or, if you play in SWF, you can get 24/7 info on where non-dropped pallets are, where to take chase and where you can force DS. WoO is one of the most complained perks because it hardcore encouraged many players to an "i see yellow, i run to yellow and drop yellow" mindset.
If your "anti tunnel" protection relies heavily on your opponent's choice of hook, RNG, and you running a supporting perk, then that is not a perk that is "in a good place".
your......most basic gameplay as survivor literally relies on forcing opponent to unfavorable hook selections and it usually has nothing to do with RNG. If you don't understand this yet, i'm not sure how well you actually do with macro aspect of the game
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3939865#Comment_3939865
imo Survivor trying to weaponise DS = Survivor being basically useless.
Sure they can try to bodyblock you but if they get slugged and don't have UB, congrats that's free pressure since you're now pressuring 3 survivors at once (The slug, the dude who was being bodyblocked for and the person who has to come pickup the slug).
Though I will give you this, OTR + DS in a bodyblock scenario is actually kind of BS. So you're not completely wrong.
lockers literally exist btw, not to mention that you can pair DS with Unbreakable or other anti-slugging perks like Soul Guard. You can even use Plot Twist with it to force the killer in an absolute lose-lose situation.
All in all, DS has always been a good perk that actually has skill floor in terms of knowing how and where to force it
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soloQ is a hell, even though i do my best to make good decisions, we lose often because my team usually play utterly bad.
When i'm in SWF, we win very often tho
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3939122#Comment_3939122
killrate 60% = winrate 50% (2k on average). With the current matchmaking, this basically means the game is balanced (even though with improved matchmaking killrates would surely drop by significant margin).Escape rate of 50% would mean 50% killrate, which further means killer winrate going somewhere around 40-45%.With this fact, average killer wins 50% of the time.It's probably closer to ~54%, but that's not the major issue and someone else can do the math discussion.
You aren't discussing draws. If the killer wins 5, loses 4, and draws 1, and the equivalent survivors win 4, lose 5, and draw 1, that's not balanced, that's in the killer's favor.
Whether you want to just do a 60% to 40% comparison (the way BHVR does it), or a 3k or more / 2k / 1k or less (the way a lot of people in the community do it), either leads to the killer having a win rate higher than the loss rate.
Regarding expert survivors vs. expert killers, you are plain wrong, expert survivors will wipe the floor with majority of killer roster most of the time.Two things here as well
First, you're missing OPs next sentence about elites
Secondly, and again more importantly, you're not comparing alike things. An expert killer choosing to play a D tier killer would be like a group of expert survivors choosing to run No Mither. If you want to limit it to the extreme end of the survivor side, you need to limit it to the extreme end of the killer side (i.e. only S tier killers). If you want to discuss all killers, then you need to discuss the full range of survivor possibilities, sweaty, soloq, fun builds, etc.
The very harsh fact about this game is that it has a VERY STEEP LEARNING CURVE similar to games like CS2.The issue of the learning curve is that unlike other games, its not equal on both sides. It's an asym so its probably inevitable, but, in my opinion, picking up the killer role is considerably easier.
And the main problem with the "go next" epidemic is that dbd players usually don't play any other game,What? I don't think I've ever seen any evidence to suggest that the DbD community is somehow more unfamiliar with other video games in comparison to other communities.
What? I don't think I've ever seen any evidence to suggest that the DbD community is somehow more unfamiliar with other video games in comparison to other communities.
it's like with other games, big part of League players barely plays anything else, big part of CS2 players barely plays anything else too. But dbd has even bigger problem due to general community mindset.
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3939122#Comment_3939122
killrate 60% = winrate 50% (2k on average). With the current matchmaking, this basically means the game is balanced.
That's not correct. You can't have balance when one side wins 50% and the other wins 40%, that's clearly disadvantaging the 40% side.
you can, because winrate in dbd as an asym game is calculated completely different and thus killrates are the priority to look upon because they are more accurate way to determine overal average percentage of wins per side. Survivor escape rate is based on INDIVIDUAL escape/die outcome (not team where 3+ men escape counts as a win), while killer outcome is based on...how many survivors are killed. It's really not nuclear physics, with MMR system like this determining balance based on individual survivor escape rates is completely wrong thing to do :)
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People who choose to play killer aren't magically better at the game than your average survivor. There are just as many mediocre killers as there are mediocre survivors, after controlling for the 1:4 ratio, obviously. Most players are average because they aren't professionals and shouldn't be expected to be professionals to have a rewarding gameplay experience. So if the escape rate is less than 50%, which it is by quite a large margin, this indicates that the game design itself favors killers, which it obviously does.
killrate 60% = winrate 50% (2k on average). With the current matchmaking, this basically means the game is balanced (even though with improved matchmaking killrates would surely drop by significant margin).
Escape rate of 50% would mean 50% killrate, which further means killer winrate going somewhere around 40-45%.
With this fact, average killer wins 50% of the time.
To turn around and then say the escape rate is low because most survivors are bad, completely ignores that most killers are just as bad, on average. But the OP game mechanics killers have at their disposal makes it far easier for mediocre killers to win against mediocre survivors. In other words, an intermediate survivor loses against an intermediate killer, most of the time. You need an expert survivor to consistently beat an intermediate killer in DBD. An expert killer will beat expert survivors most of the time, too. It is only a minority of elite survivors that can actually prosper against expert killers, and killers don't even face these teams very often because elite players are a tiny percentile of the player base. The balance differential is clearly evident in the absurdly long kill streaks that some killer mains have achieved, which is unheard of on survivor side, and unheard of in other popular PvP games that are sensibly balanced. The margin only gets smaller as you approach the very top of MMR, and even then, 4 man SWFs still escape less than killers.
game mechanics make it easier for mediocre killers to win against mediocre SOLOQ survivors.
Regarding expert survivors vs. expert killers, you are plain wrong, expert survivors will wipe the floor with majority of killer roster most of the time.
And please let's not talk about MMR where soft cap is so low that you can easily reqch it quickly, not to mention how matchmaking functions thanks to oversaturated soft cap level.
Regarding killer winstreaks, you literally have top <1% players winstreaking because their overall game knowledge is significantly higher than game knowledge of their average opponent (ohh yeah, the well known MMR again where person that is amongst best killer/survivor players in the world goes in lobby with people who don't have nearly as much skill). Same goes for both sides. .
The fundamental principle of game theory is that you have a balance of challenge and reward, which produces a flow state, and that is called "fun". But if survivors aren't rewarded for skillful input, because low skill cheese tactics are so effective, then the game ceases to be fun, and they rage quit (i.e. go next). This is not a skill issue on the players part, it is a critical game design issue whereby a large percentage of the player base doesn't even consider a match worth playing until the end, because the mechanics are inherently unfun. In fact I have never seen such a high percentage of quitters in any other popular PvP game, compared to DBD.
you literally...already have skill input in terms of macro and micro knowledge of the game. This has nothing to do with game design, it has to do with people usually looking at the game from one perspective only (thinking long chases are almost everything that matters etc.)
The very harsh fact about this game is that it has a VERY STEEP LEARNING CURVE similar to games like CS2.
And the main problem with the "go next" epidemic is that dbd players usually don't play any other game, suffer from burnout but don't wanna uninstall because they don't know how to fill the void left by taking a break from dbd. Not to mentiok that dbd has one of the most petty and entitled communities i have ever seen in any video game.
If you're a really good killer main, you don't need BHVR to hold your hand to help you kill survivors. Your skill as killer will make you an intimidating presence all by itself. If the survivors aren't intimidated by you, then you're just not good at killer role. And if survivors don't consider the game worth playing, then the devs need to address their game design instead of blaming the survivors for "not working together".
this literally goes for the survivor side too lol, yet you see new handholding mechanics arriving to "help newer players" while they end up being abused by veterans. You are again looking at the very situation from rose tinted glasses and are acting like survivors are leaving the game and are doing so because "game is killer sided" which is factually wrong.
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his tierlist is based on average pub player experience, not killer strength. And ngl quite an amount of killers are really misplaced.
Kaneki in his current state is definitely A tier, but S? Billy is eons better (high mobility, instadown, better zoning) and Billy is bottom S.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3938640#Comment_3938640
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3938678#Comment_3938678
I'm just going to point out that the last time they put "anti camping" on the road map, what they gave us was the AFC mechanic.
Here's the year 8 road map they initially put out. Bottom left, "gameplay improvements: anti camping". And I don't think I have to also point out that for two years now, every thread about the mechanic they actually gave us makes absolutely certain to clarify that this mechanic "isn't anti camping, it's anti FACE camping".
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/4BFPQQVITZKJ/1000009298.jpg
I have very, very tentative hope that the phase 2 "anti camp" feature will be meaningful to deter camping. It needs to do something in some situations, at minimum, because the killer should feel some pressure to actually chase survivors early game (so, camping first hook).
And while I do generally agree that "killer doing nothing" means gens are being done for free, this community doesn't understand that in the slightest (in general). The complaints are about "gen rushing" and "gen speed" because people aren't examining their own gameplay, and just want more time to stand at the hook doing nothing.
The "strategy", for some people, is "run 4 slowdowns, wander blindly for two minutes, camp and tunnel the first person you see, and if that isn't fast enough, complain that you need more regression". Never mind the efficiency of that, or just completely ignoring 3 survivors to let them do what they want (it's gens), or that even one aura perk would cut that time down drastically. It makes the game a literal race for one kill vs 4-5 gens, who can finish first? And the only person who changes that is the killer, because survivor gameplay is responding to the killer, and standing at a hook isn't meaningfully creating gameplay.
From a gameplay perspective, the killer drives the PVP part of the game, and there's currently nothing aside from understanding the game fundamentals that pushes players to go chase instead of camping every hook, every time. And unfortunately there's nothing in the game currently that forces killers to learn that fundamental either.
I have very, very tentative hope that the phase 2 "anti camp" feature will be meaningful to deter camping. It needs to do something in some situations, at minimum, because the killer should feel some pressure to actually chase survivors early game (so, camping first hook).
i don't think it should be something that still rewards survivor for not choosing to counter camping, but something that merely gives team info about survivor being camped for soloQ thst doesn't affect SWFs (basekit Kindred). Any stronger kind of anticamp is just handholding to bad players.
And while I do generally agree that "killer doing nothing" means gens are being done for free, this community doesn't understand that in the slightest (in general). The complaints are about "gen rushing" and "gen speed" because people aren't examining their own gameplay, and just want more time to stand at the hook doing nothing.
Killer players mix up terms "genrushing" and "early gen splitting" very often, but honestly, gen splitting is a problem (and the upcoming survivor spawn logic doesn't improve it because survivors will still be able to bring Shroud of Separation). But yeah, in most cases, camping hooks is just invitation for gens to fly if you aren't careful and only attempt to camp if you manage to get a strong hook inside a 3-gen, and this would only be viable if you are playing a killer that can actually excel at camping (Billy, Oni with power ready, Trickster, Bubba etc.)
The "strategy", for some people, is "run 4 slowdowns, wander blindly for two minutes, camp and tunnel the first person you see, and if that isn't fast enough, complain that you need more regression". Never mind the efficiency of that, or just completely ignoring 3 survivors to let them do what they want (it's gens), or that even one aura perk would cut that time down drastically. It makes the game a literal race for one kill vs 4-5 gens, who can finish first? And the only person who changes that is the killer, because survivor gameplay is responding to the killer, and standing at a hook isn't meaningfully creating gameplay.
this is exactly the point of what i said, matchmaking is at big fault for generating mindset of "i have to tunnel and camp to win". While it's true many killers can't do anything if they don't manage to force an early 3v1, you can't just still choose to tunnel and camp because you will be punished hard against good players for even trying.
Basically the law of action and reaction, with better matchmaking killer will face more teams that know counterplay to tunneling and camping and then they will have to sit down and think "wait, i can't really camp and tunnel every match".
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3938666#Comment_3938666
Pretty much. Camping is practically best case scenario short of an afk killer for survivors. Absolutely zero gen pressure. Camping a hook isn't "bad behavior" - it's a tool killers can use, but it's very risk vs reward - doing so gives free gen progress to survivors. Normally, it's simply a bad play on the killer's part, but it does have it's place at times. Facecamping was the thing BHVR wanted to stop, and they successfully did so.
As for the upcoming anti-camping measures, I'm sure we are all quite curious what they have in mind. If they are effectively entirely removing one complete element of killer gameplay, it'll need to be made up in some other way…but perhaps not…removing camping entirely is just going to make killers stronger since "free gen progress" will become a thing of the past.
in terms of new anti-camping i hope it's just basekit Kindred because it truly is something necessary for soloQ camp countering that doesn't really affect SWFs at all
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@Btobin2426 said:
It really seems to have become a big issue with killers camping hooked survivors. They seem to know just how far to stay back as not to trigger the time release. Especially the killers with super acceleration they get just far enough to hit a survivor if they get anywhere near unhooking. It's really a bummer. Makes the game no fun at all to play. I see alot.of players just get hooked and give up. I hope they fix this soon.
- killer camps hooks often.
- survivors in their matches mostly swarm hook and give camping killer easy hits, downs and basically let the killer snowball for free.
- killer thinks camping is actually very good and efficient.
- killer keeps facing teams that don't punish them for camping.
- killer finally plays against team that knows how to play against a camper, gets humiliated, but doesn't care because 90% of their matches will still be people who refuse to learn counterplay to camping.
- repeat.
Once average survivor learns how to counter camping, average killer will understand it isn't as efficient and effective to always do and camping significantly drops in usage.
You are welcome.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3937411#Comment_3937411
I shouldn't need to explain the difference between people wasting your time, and tunneling. You can't really equate the two. One is inherently toxic and being done deliberately to get under a person's skin, and the other is, in a nutshell, rushing your objective.
When killers would 4-man slug and bleed all the survivors out while humpteching them, where was the sympathy then? Non-existent. Survivors were constantly told that if they got 4-man slugged then it was their own fault for playing badly. It's not just killers who get a lack of sympathy.
Bad manners isn't a bannable offense. Before the endgame collapse, survivors would waste the killer's time. They'd gloat. They'd do their victory laps. Tbag at the exit. Repeatedly fast vault. Fast enter/exit lockers. If you didn't force them out, you basically just waited until they got bored. Then they'd taunt you in the chat.
Endgame collapse was added specifically to deal with that problem. I've played both sides. I've played dbd for years. I've repeatedly been on the receiving end of toxic behaviour. I've been bodyblocked into a corner by a teammate. I've been held hostage by a killer. I've been abused in private messages on console. I've been slugged and bled out at 5 gens. I've been taunted at the exit gates by survivors. I've been taunted by survivors after every pallet drop. I once had survivors waste an entire 10 minutes with the gates open just doing their victory laps.
I know all too well how it feels, but there's not really anything that can be done. It's not against the rules. The only possible solutions I can think of are shortening the endgame collapse timer, and making end game chat opt-in rather than opt-out. Neither of these solve the problem, but then it's not exactly like bhvr can just flip a switch and eradicate toxicity.
I shouldn't need to explain the difference between people wasting your time, and tunneling. You can't really equate the two. One is inherently toxic and being done deliberately to get under a person's skin, and the other is, in a nutshell, rushing your objective.
this is such a bad definition of what toxicity is. There is vast difference between taking advantage of survivor being unhooked too early and then managing to find themselves at the worst possible place instead of trying to get away from killer's main patrolling zone. Tunneling is only toxic when killer who does it basically doesn't care about winning anymore, they only care about taking specific survivor out, even if it costs them all 5 gens. A huge difference between these two instances of tunneling. And ofc, not even wasting killer's time is toxic at all.
When killers would 4-man slug and bleed all the survivors out while humpteching them, where was the sympathy then? Non-existent. Survivors were constantly told that if they got 4-man slugged then it was their own fault for playing badly. It's not just killers who get a lack of sympathy.
although intentional bleeding people out is toxic, 4-men slugs are indeed consequence of huge mistakes made by survivors leading to killer snowballing.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3935694#Comment_3935694
My matches say otherwise.
And before you say: "you just play against bad survivors":- A majority of them have above 4k hours
- Some of them have comp on their profile
- Many are swf
- Strong loadouts
- How often do I need to win to get better survivors then? At some point, the games mmr system should stick me with the people you describe right? Or maybe, shes just pretty good the way I play her.
i also often get 4Ks because it's pubs, matchmaking is practically nonecistent. My experience changed only when i actually load into scrims where i actually play against people of my skill level.
What i actually noticed is that average survivors in pubs struggle a lot against macro heavy killers, that's why you see e.g. Sadako, one of the worst killers in dbd having some of the highest killrates.
Even my experience as an Oni main, many survivors in pubs tend to literally do things like taking hits AGAINST ONI, trying to greed pallets, not stealthing through this power etc. At least i hope their MMR changes prove to be something actually good.
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no thanks, i really don't want a mode that has 0 strategizing requirements and is far more unbalanced than 1v4 to replace it.
If there was an choice between this and 2v8 never returning to the game, i would choose the latter.
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@KA149108 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3936198#Comment_3936198
The devs really couldn't care about the survivor role at this point. I've played since Oni's release and I think im going to have to walk away from the game.
I play majority solo q and if I play 10 matches only 2 will actually be worth while where everyone's working towards the objective and my team aren't being completely steamrolled and tunneled at 5 gens. I've just simply had enough.
it's really ignorant to say this when you take in mind everything BHVR has done and made camping, tunneling and slugging basically dead with all perks released to this day that counter them (and basic gameplay mechanics too).
At this point you just want them to give you absolutely no skill input way to counter these strats, and until they don't do that, you will act like they don't care about survivor role.
Classic example of behavior of spoiled players.
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@Frost139 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3936619#Comment_3936619
Nurse is broken anyway so I don’t see how this is a valid response
killer ignores loops and forces macro related counters, that doesn't imply that killer is broken at all.
Anyways, i think i've just read the worst suggestion ever
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@dookieszs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3936564#Comment_3936564
Then what is the point of perks like boil over, power struggle, or flip flop? Were you told this or did you just analyze it and come up with this? This game is extremely killer sided and the fact that even with all these perks which are meant to allow you to escape the killer's grasp, it is still nearly impossible. I never said its meant to be a "get out of killers grasp free card", but I think if you've spent a decent amount of time wiggling you should be able to get out of their grasp considering it takes 16 whole seconds.
those are the perks that assist in sabo strats, you actually need to have a team for them to work yk? Also, you need to know where and how to position.
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a really brave, but too obvious bait
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i guess we have to repeat this hundreds of times:
wiggling is NOT meant to be your free get out of killer's grasp card, it's only meant to prevent killer from carrying you to a hook that is beneficial for them if you manage to force a down at enough distance.
Wiggling mechanic is doing it's job marvelously