MrPenguin
MrPenguin
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@sulaiman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1881707#Comment_1881707
Would be nice to play against you. The last couple of spirits i played against never managed a 4k, the highst was one with a 3k, and that one was heavy into camping and tunneling. Still didnt get me. Most of the other spirits just got 1k, while the rest escaped. but to be fair, i only encounterd 5 spirits in my last 60 games, and thats what i kept stats of. And yes, 4 out of 5 spirits did run stidor, yet i was able to juke them even injured multiple times.
Most people just dont know how to play vs spirit, other than trying to run in circles like every other killer.
Would be nice to play against those Spirits, it sounds like they were bad. I'm not exactly a god spirit or anything, I'd hesitate to even say I'm a good spirit. But even so I find winning with her much easier than most of the roster.
But I have also seen some bad Spirits. I personally know people who are so bad at the game even Spirit doesn't help too much. There's just exceptionally bad players is all.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1882306#Comment_1882306
Any new player would find Spirit much more difficult to play than most the other killers.
Now that is not to be misconstrued with they wouldn't get as many kills. If they're new they would be facing other new survivors to the game. Playing against Spirit requires more skill than against other killers. IE them playing dumb against her and running in a straight line while she's phasing doesn't me she is easier.
People misinterpret Spirit as being easy because other survivors don't know how to play against her.
IE more kills =/= she is easier.
My Spirit main roommate I mentioned earlier can only do well with Spirit and sucks hard with other killers, that's why they main Spirit (besides liking her design). They have done so since they began playing the game, so I disagree with "any new player would find Spirit much more difficult" as I have personally seen that's not true.
Part of the issue is because Spirit is so dumb strong, you can make more mistakes with her and still come out on top. You don't need to master her or anything. In relation to the rest of the killer roster, she is the easiest to have just some basic game knowledge and begin winning much more than you would with other much more loopable and weaker killers.
Hard to master maybe, but easy to win with, as is more commonly said, easy to play, hard to master. Its not like nurse where you need to be right on top of them when you blink to hit them, being in the general spot where they are when you unphase will net you a hit unless they are literally right under a pallet and drop it in time if they guessed what side you appear on correctly and you don't hit them through it. Tracking with scratch marks and sound isn't hard, every killer has to do it. Every killer isn't spirit strong.
The statement wasn't "is Spirit easy as Wraith to play" its just "Spirit is easy". Which I believe she is. However I could say "Spirit is easier to win with than Wraith/most killers here", which I believe is true. If she wasn't as strong then maybe, but she is. Part of how easy it is to play a killer is how easy it is to win with them, and I think we can all agree winning with Spirit is much easier than that grand majority of the killer roster.
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@Komodo16 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1881719#Comment_1881719
Ignore him he just wants to start issues for some reason
Yeah that's most likely what's going on. That post was just a knee jerk reaction. Thanks for the check.
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I don't really like the idea of the game being balance for the top 1% or anything as then only they get to enjoy the game. Maybe around just above average/higher levels of play, but not top of the top, but who knows if that would actually work well. But if it does at least a lot more players would be able to enjoy it.
Right now it looks like we balance killers around the top 1% but not survivors. Its leading to a lot of problems like the current survivor que times. At the very least there needs to be consistent balancing on both sides.
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@The_Bootie_Gorgon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1881707#Comment_1881707
Sweet Bebe JaySus, we have 2 god tier spirits in the house...
Bruh I just said I rarely play her. She's just easy and strong that's all. I might not have gotten 4k at 5 gens on Haddonfield against seal team six or anything, But I did 4k all my games my first session with her and do well with her when I do play her.
I don't know what agenda you're trying to push here.
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Yeah I pretty much had the same experience when I played Spirit for the first few times. The difference between her and the other killers I usually play was staggering.
My Spirit main roommate was around at the time and I remember laughing the whole time and saying things like "Whatchu gonna do, I'm Spirit. Now watch me outplay you by standing still." We had a good time which almost never happens playing any other killer.
I don't really like her as a character though, so I rarely play her. But she's my go to if I feel like just having easier games.
She really does just take a small amount of game sense and hearing. It's a nice break from the headache playing killer usually is. Although I'm sure the survivors weren't exactly thrilled about it.
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Well, I would consider all the survivor second chance perks and the fact that DS can punish you just for playing too well to be pretty unfair, not to mention the map RNG that can screw over either side before the game even starts. Then you got Nurse and Spirit on the other side who I also wouldn't call fair/balanced. I would also say Freddy is unbalanced as in too strong and then you have the flipside like Wraith, Pig, Legion being too weak. There's more on both sides but I would be here all day, and I'm not trying to be.
While maybe a lot of the things in the entire game might be fair outside of the RNG, the majority of things people are using are from the "unfair and unbalanced" potion. So that's all people are really playing against. As survivor I see way too many Spirits and Freddy's as killer everyone and their grandma has second chance perks.
I wouldn't say the game is "fair", but with a few tweaks and changes it could be, and that's part of the frustration. It could be if they cared/understood how to fix it. Same with the balance side, it could be much better with just a little more effort/understanding. Its better than the past, but its not good. As I understand the majority of the player base doesn't want to deal with killer problems and being the generally weaker side.
I don't agree with "well sometimes its unfair for side A and sometimes its unfair for side B so its fair". No it's still unfair, its just unfair differently. That's also not even taking into account it's much more common for one side to be receiving the unfairness than the other. So it's more like "Sometimes its not fair for side A, but most of the time its unfair for side b, so its fair". You can't be fair and unfair at the same time, the unfairness on both sides needs to go.
Also the only thing in that second to last section that's really unfair/unbalanced is DS. However, everything in that section is very unfun to deal with. I just believe people mistake unfun for unbalanced/unfair or don't fully grasp what it means that the game is 4v1 sometimes.
But hey, that's just my outlook on the game as of this moment.
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I see where you were going with this but this doesn't really reward people who don't camp with the current way the game is played. If you don't camp (sometimes even if you do) people usually come for the save in like, 10-20 seconds max (unless they're bad or something).
The counter for camping will still be just to do the gens and its not a meaningful incentive not too since people save pretty quickly anyway.
So for this to work you'd need to make the timer very very short pretty quickly. I could see a different mechanic being tied to the hook counter like a different buff or slowdown or something.
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Probably not. Last I heard a certain important dev believes that she's "A-tier" or at least very strong because her kill rates are apparently high.
The team probably shares the same view.
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@Chchchcheryl said:
DS isn't this unstoppable force, there are so many way to counter it, including purposely eating the stuns early on! I'm not a very good killer but that's just common sense, or, take a chase without straying too far for a quick re-down and a hit on the healer! DS is not an issue and is not overly powerful, its offensive use is the issue!
On the other side though, the undying nerf wasn't called for, to such a magnitude as well! They could have taken a much better route. It's unfortunate as well because any post explicitly about this on the forums just gets bombarded by entitled survivors who think they are the be all and end all of this game! It's really unfortunate, because of the amount of community resistance (survivors), they wouldn't think about rebalancing undying!
Letting them use DS is not a counter to DS, you literally give them the opportunity on purpose. That's the opposite of a counter. They can also choose to save it if they want.
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Spirt, Freddy, Hag, Chainsaw bros. In that order.
Honorable mention to Myers. He just irritates me because his power has no counter outside of map rng and he punishes you for your teammates mistakes, but at least he's not crazy strong or anything.
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@JimPickens666 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1859981#Comment_1859981
Which content creator? Noob and Monto were apparently blacklisted for being toxic which is absurd
Its not exactly safe to say who on the forums. Like the poster said, said its a person of power and you'd probably get penalized (potentially banned) for pointing it out or giving any direction by said person. It wouldn't be the first time.
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Add club music when the game detects twer- I mean T-bagging
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@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1865287#Comment_1865287
Oh we're on a nickname basis now? Must have hit the right spot.
I am going to touch on each one of these, and why I disagree that they aren't a lose-lose situation for a killer.
"On a gen with DS up, especially with a locker nearby."
This is simply wrong. Unless you are an incompetent killer who doesn't understand that DS has a timer attached, you would have to grab the survivor off the gen before you can get stunned. If they go into a locker, AND you haven't been tunneling off hook, you have seconds to wait before their timer is out. So, no it's not a lose-lose situation.
"Going for a hook save with DS up, now no matter who you go after you lose (also 1 of them now most likely has BT on them)."
This doesn't even make sense. The survivor who saved can go down, DS doesn't protect them. You only think it does because the timer is active, but it doesn't actually do anything unless you pick up. BT can easily be countered as you just have to wait 15 seconds and when you hit them after they go down.
Body blocking with it up for someone else (also prob with BT as well).
How is this a lose-lose situation? The person with DS can still go down? If it's the last hook and the gate is nearby, all you have to do is force a trade.
"Slugging because it forces killers too in a situation they shouldn't be slugging in. Welp, guess I just lose a hook state because the perk say so and now they're an easy pickup. Slugging is just the lesser of 2 evils, not a proper counter. Waste your time but at least they're down (but they now become an easy pickup and with no hook progression) or don't down them and they're free to run around, or pick them up and waste even more time because they just got a free health state and head start while their team sits on gens. A lesser loss is still a loss."
I am not really sure why you think countering the perk is a bad thing? It doesn't create a lose-lose situation because you have applied free pressure either way. You are only incorporating specific variables to satisfy your argument, because what if instead of working on gens, survivors tried to pick that teammate up because in actuality the killer WAS tunneling all along? See how it can flip? I have made a lot of survivors snowball, especially if I have sloppy butcher slotted.
I think you have a problem with waiting. Like, no disrespect, but I think you want a down immediately, with no obstacles and no situational decision-making. That is not what this game is.
You realize they cannot possible balance DS in every speckle of imaginary situations where you think it is unfair. Why? For the same reason they can't fully balance Camping, Slugging, Tunneling (Even tho we all know they are boderline abusive many times, just as your little situational examples). It's funny how I often hear "Well you see... Camping is a strat, Tunneling is a strat, Slugging is a strat...." as a way to justify plays. When DS comes into the picture tho... "OH NO, IT'S BROKEN, ABUSIVE".
Bottom Line: The perk should be changed when Camping , Tunneling and Slugging changes. As of right now it is fine as it is.
I was just pointing out you were assuming, you didn't "hit the right spot" (assuming again btw) just because I used a 1 off nickname that's not even offensive lol.
Simply put just getting a down is not good enough since DS still makes you lose out on that hook state if you leave them and give them a free heal if you pick them up. If you wait for the 40-50 seconds then that's roughly half of the other gens getting done. I don't personally have a problem waiting, however the killer does not have the time to just wait in the current state of the game where gens fly by. Its not just 1 or 2 people its a 4v1. Any time your waiting is time the others are doing gens or something else. I could wait and have the patience to do so, but that's how you lose games.
If you can give me a solution to DS that lets me put said survivor on a hook without getting stunned or having to wait potentially almost a minuet because they are throwing themselves in front of me or onto the objective then it might be considered a decent counter since the killer will still be making progress on their objective. The solution should just be if you don't tunnel you don't get hit, but that's not what we have right now.
There is nothing you can do so DS does nothing to hinder you to a much too large extent. Slugging does not give you more pressure than putting someone on a hook will unless its used in specific scenarios and in a lot of cases will lose you pressure compared to having hooked or even killed someone since now they can move, be an easy pickup, you didn't get your hook state(aka progress), use unbreakable and you wasted your time on them for no progression on your objective while they created time for their team to do theirs.
There's nothing to stop a survivor from getting off hook and just jumping straight on a gen right away. Then if you try to punish them you get stunned, they get a free health state, and whole additional chase starts because they got rewarded for making a bad play right in the killers face
If your problem is tunneling and camping then there's no reason why you would oppose the changes purposed.
Further on that point camping and slugging all have decent counters and drawbacks, DS does not (thats a whole additional conversation I could go into but not the point of this thread and this comment is long enough as is). You cannot give DS a counter outside of "Just don't tunnel" because then actual tunnelers will abuse that counter. It doesn't have a good counter now and it shouldn't get one, not tunneling needs to be enough. Right now it is not.
On that note, tunneling is its own enigma because apparently its not fine for the killer to focus their objective but the survivors can focus theirs no problem. Bit of a double standard there. It should either be fine for both or not fine for both, not fine for me but not for thee.
It needs a deactivation requirement so that its more focused on countering what it should counter and not just a massive middle finger "I can do whatever I want and if the killer tries to stop me I get rewarded" card and hitting killers who are just doing well or had a survivor toss themselves in the way because they know they can and not be punished in a way that matters the grand majority of the time.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1863095#Comment_1863095
Provide with several exmaples where it is a lose-lose situation for a killer?
I want several, not some random match you had where you think it was a lose-lose situation for a killer. Cuz you know that happens on both sides right?
You are obviously one of those people who gets stunned by DS more than not. So please provide examples.
I actually don't get stunned very often by DS Mr.Assumptions but that doesn't mean I don't see why or that its not a problem perk as I can easily abuse it myself when I want to and have seen/experienced scenarios of others doing the same both in and out my friend groups. I just choose to play in a sub-optimal way as killer the grand majority of the time because that's how I have fun and that playstyle makes me less susceptible (although not immune because again, the perk is so easy to abuse if you really want to). Of course I also have the experience of the times I do tryhard a match to go off of as well. 4 Lose-lose situations are:
- On a gen with DS up, especially with a locker nearby.
- Going for a hook save with DS up, now no matter who you go after you lose (also 1 of them now most likely has BT on them).
- Body blocking with it up for someone else (also prob with BT as well).
- Slugging because it forces killers too in a situation they shouldn't be slugging in. Welp, guess I just lose a hook state because the perk say so and now they're an easy pickup. Slugging is just the lesser of 2 evils, not a proper counter. Waste your time but at least they're down (but they now become an easy pickup and with no hook progression) or don't down them and they're free to run around, or pick them up and waste even more time because they just got a free health state and head start while their team sits on gens. A lesser loss is still a loss.
Throw into the mix other second chances like BT, UB ect. and it gets even worse:
- Deliverance into DS, esp during EGC
- UB making the slugging situation even worse because now they can pick themselves up, also potentially soul guard
- Power struggle, DS, UB, combo. Pick them up now? Stunned. Leave? they get up or get picked up. Wait? pallet stun.
That's just off the top of my head. I could probably add more if I sat and though about it for a while. Not all of these are to the same exact degree, but there's not much, if anything, the killer can realistically do in these situations to come out on top. The perk should deactivate if the survivor gets on a gen/totem, in a locker, unhooks anyone, or heals. This would most likely solve most of the abuse cases while still leaving the anti-tunnel/farm aspect alone.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1862101#Comment_1862101
It's not intented to strictly be an anti-tunnel perk. It never was.
https://i.gyazo.com/d7aad594a92cba48c8ca0d0a4bd5a89d.png
Just because it serves that purpose doesn't mean it can be played in other ways. The timer is the downside of the perk, so it's easy to counter it by slugging.
You're right its also an anti-farming tool like I (and the devs) said. See not purely tunneling. Unless they come out and say its also something else that's all its supposed to be. The perk is still too strong in either case as "other ways" means abused to put the killers in a lose-lose when it comes to DS and especially with its combo perks.
Please read my post literally 2 down from the one you quoted to see why slugging isn't a good defense. Also that "downside" is laughable compared to the benefit the perk provides.
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@jrinkwater said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1862101#Comment_1862101
Ah yes BUT the timer also stops slugging to a degree. It is far too overtuned
Oh I think 100% DS needs to be tuned down by a hefty amount, that perk has no sufficient counter play and before someone says "JuSt SlUg" slugging is not always a good move and can lose you pressure in a lot of cases if done at the wrong time, this also doesn't solve the issue of survivors just using DS as a "Do whatever I want" card for the next 60 seconds because they know they can. If slugging was SO bad all the time then survivors would be worried about it and try to avoid the killer anyway. They don't because they know it's not.
Slugging is still a loss for the killer in most cases compared to hooking that survivor. There's specific scenarios where slugging is a good move and this gives the killer no choice in when or where it happens.
Not to mention all the DS combo perks like UB ect.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1012424#Comment_1012424
It's not. Devs never said you can only use it for "anti-tunneling" purposes. They even stated specifically that if the killer happens to find you AGAIN, it will come down to a strat from killer and survivor.
Also, if u don't seek-out the same survivor it is no longer 60 seconds. Slugging is a good counter, why do you think killers in red ranks effectively use this strat?
It is intended to stop tunneling, quoting the devs themselves on ds.
"serves the purpose to protect you from being tunneled/ farmed"
source: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/48381/design-decisive-strike
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Maybe, but not the nerf we got. Just remove the aura reading. Finding bones isn't exactly hard and hexes have built in counterplay since you can break them. There's plenty of other perks that needed nerfs much more that actually have no real/sufficient counterplay and undying is/was not on that list.
Gen speeds go too fast so killers ran a perk combo to roll a dice to see how much it will help in a match (which against any good team isn't too much). Undying got nerfed because survivors didn't like it, not because it was too strong because it wasn't (still strong, just not overbearing usually). Finding bones isn't hard and ruin only helps if you get people off gens, and we all know in current DBD by the time the killer gets 1 down 2-3 gens pop usually, the combo won't help against that.
There's been plenty of games I just ignore the combo because Ruin was pretty much a non-factor in my gen repair since the survivors can run a chase for so long. There's been games where I find the hexes right away. I've rarely ever had a problem with the combo unless my team was bad and/or it was one of the unholy killer trinity (Nurse, Spirit, Freddy) in which case we're probably losing anyway.
They nerfed it too hard and like they usually do for anything on the killer side.
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I've pretty much given up on console optimization or changes. I just want cross progression so I can move my much more progressed console account to PC since that is clearly their focus.
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@RaSavage42 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1852951#Comment_1852951
I was thinking something like that...
Yeah I was agreeing with your direction of what they should be doing, I just wanted to add some details and see if you'd agree. I know a lot of people would like to see more in depth stats, if even just for the sake of hoping the devs take more factors into account because it really doesn't seem/feel that way.
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Yeah but they are probably just going off "I heard this combo is good so I'm gonna run it". They probably don't understand they need to pressure for it to work.
Kinda like people who think "I heard DS counters tunneling so if you get hit you must be tunneling". They don't really think for themselves half the time and just bandwagon without understanding.
But its an easy escape if that's what their doing as they're pretty much down 2 perks as you can just ignore the combo for the most part.
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Do it if that's the strategy you want to take to win. Most vocal survivors tunnel gens and have DS, UB, BT, exc. all the time and call anything they don't like toxic and act like it should be removed from the game just because its "unfun" or "boring".
It goes both ways, if they want fun games they need to be willing to give fun games. Nothing mentioned is "toxic" inherently unless you make it so. Unbalanced maybe, but that's another conversation.
Don't pay attention to the endgame chat, people just use it to ego boost and be actually toxic the vast majority of the time.
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@RaSavage42 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1852522#Comment_1852522
Yes... they're included... Honestly they should be separate for context
Take Freddie for example... has %75.69 kill rate but what % are DC's and not kills that Freddie got himself?
That's what I want to know more of (cause again... I'm being selfish)
Any kills in a match with an early leavers should be exempt and/or separated into a different stat block. If 1 teammate DC's/suicides early and the 3 others stay, even if the Killer (Freddy in this example) got the other 3 on his own, they were overwhelmingly likely to die now anyway since 1 of their teammates left early.
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@floofysnake said:
Alright kiddos I made an account just for yall so buckle up. I'm a legion main with a few months of experience, currently rank 10 but can compete with rank 8 fairly well. I'm going to leave some of my thoughts on legion since... Very few people on this thread appear to actually know what they're talking about beyond 'legion bad'
Alright first I'll just start with how to play legion cause why not. Typical start, find where everyone is (I like to use the perk which shows when people work together on gens). Once you've found them and you think you can land a hit on them, use frenzy, stab EVERYONE on the map once, everyone should now be injured and if you have the right add ons (I reccomend the legion pin to apply broken and things to extend the frenzy duration cause its way too short and needs a slight buff). You'll probably have sprinted across the map from the original gen but that's fine, they won't be working on it. If they're a team who know what they're doing then they'll probably be healing now, giving you time to complete the chase on the final survivor you stabbed. If this looks like it'll be about 30 seconds, try to guide them towards the original gen you found people at. Use your power only when people are healed or you need to scare people away from a distant gen. Rest of the game you're stuck as an m1 killer except hopefully everyone will be injured and you can get multiple downs at once. That is the ideal legion situation.
Now the less good situation is when everyone is a master at dodging in this game, because it makes it less and less likely you'll score hits with feral frenzy, effectively making you useless. What makes this even harder I've noticed is that for some reason legion doesn't seem to hit straight in front of him, especially in frenzy, and instead hits a little off to the right so that if somebody loops you clockwise it can mean you hit walls when you shouldn't.
Another bad situation is when sqauds are constantly healed, but all you can really do about that is split them up and make it so people aren't able to body block.
My main problems with legion:
The thing where you hit to the right
The stun after frenzy seems slightly long, should maybe be 3 seconds instead of 4.
Many of their attachments seem completely useless, such as anything which mentions deep wounds as in the several months I've played I've only seen one person get downed due to deep wounds.
The inability to see scratch marks can be a real pain, especially in the endgame if you use feral frenzy to get between gates, though it isn't a huge problem and you learn to work around it.
It may be purely visual, but legion seems to have a much smaller lunge range (probably because of the smol knife)
Your power has no use in the endgame collapse, unless gates are closed. You're far better playing as an m1 killer as soon as the gates open.
Other than that... Legion is actually playable. Now I definitely wouldn't call him a great killer, but if you learn how to play him then you can be a nightmare for a team who don't heal each other.
I probably forgot something but who cares.
If the survivors let you " stab EVERYONE on the map once" then they don't know what they're doing against Legion. Running away from him does a lot, the only people who get chained are the ones close together who don't run right away or at all. You also need to be lucky enough to find every grouped to begin with, and good survivors split up as soon as the game starts. Sincerely a Legion player since his release.
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@AlightBULLDOG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1789605#Comment_1789605
This game does nothing but reward bad killer behavior. Tunneling, body camping, body baiting, sweating, slugging. Its 1-6 in favor of killer. I think it's fine. That's not taking into account that bad teammates can negatively effect a good or great survivors game by sandbagging them, not getting the gens done or doing stupid things. One survivor cant do everything and escape. It's a last ditch effort to give the luckiest/best survivor one more chance to escape. But as killer you get to roam the entire map without worry so it's a lot easier to find.
Again, if you had a bad teammate then thats too bad. One survivor shouldn't do everything, its a 4 man team. This is not a 1v1 its a 1v4.
All the things you mentioned can be strategies used to get the killers objective done and all have their counter-play by the survivor team, they are not necessarily "bad behavior". Additionally the game doesn't reward you for any of these, the survivor team has to. The same cannot be said about holding the game hostage, on either side that does nothing to move the game forward and has no purpose but to stop the game from ending indefinitely.
Survivors get a potential free escape because of a problem they created, I wouldn't put them on the same level as something like slugging and baiting which aren't even "bad behavior" inherently. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it fit that definition in this context.
Edit: For clarification, in this sense it means doing something unintended that causes a negative or unchanged game state (never ending) for both sides with no viable solution from the other side or something done solely to spite the side opposing yours. A much smaller example would be something like T-bagging at the exit gates.
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I play both sides at higher ranks, the game is survivor sided imo with the exception of a select few killers. The only thing holding most survivor teams back is how bad some of the players are, even in red ranks. That's pretty much the general consensus.
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As someone who plays both sides, yes, yes it is.
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Now mori's are borderline useless and also very expensive in the bloodweb, they either need to be given something (even just a ton of bloodpoints for example) or really reduced in rarity. Honestly at this point mori's could be basekit and it would probably barely matter.
I only ever used a mori if I saw a key in a match, now its not even worth it to do that. I'm not against the change per se, but they kinda took one of the 2 options that helped with keys away without giving one to replace it or fixing keys as well at the same time, not later down the line when they feel like it.
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I don't think so. devotion is just how much you play the game (kinda like rank). Just because you play a lot doesn't mean you're good and is not a good metric of skill in the game, so I wouldn't use it for matchmaking.
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@InsatiableMop said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1826838#Comment_1826838
didnt say dont do it, but dont do it then complain about DS or unbreakable...
Ok so, I'm going to explain my stance a bit more so sorry (I guess) for the amount of text coming up:
If DS only helped against tunneling then sure. But its way more than that, especially when paired with unbreakable. Its pretty much a do-whatever-you-want free card in its current state and warrants criticism.
At the very least it should only affect tunneling as much as possible. Although I don't personally think we should be punishing anyone for playing the way they should be playing if they want to preform well and tryhard, especially when only one side has the tools to punish that type of play.
Part of the issue is anything that punishes tunneling is also punishing optimal play and the way the game design is encouraging killers to play. The design needs to be changed so tunneling can be addressed without punishing the killer for doing what they should be doing if they want to win, but that's probably not happening.
Alternatively you could give killers a perk that just undoes gen progress just because survivors are focusing gens too hard to level the field a little, but that's also probably not happening.
Other possible ways forward if we want the game to improve is either a mass community movement on both sides to make the game more fun for each other (fat chance) or just nerfing DS and/or its combos (much simpler and more likely).
I don't tunnel in my games, but that's a choice I make in how I play. I'm choosing to play sub-optimal because it prefer another playstyle. The whole principle behind DS is just really unfair to people who do want to try and win more than someone like me. Its really a flaw in the game design and instead of fixing it they just punish the players instead. Then we have people who don't tunnel and still get hit with DS.
The perk needs changes or the game does. DS has been a problem since its creation because they're trying to use it to cover up the bad design of the hook/death mechanic from a player enjoyment perspective in any sort of competitive environment. They should have reworked the system a long time ago imo.
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That's how the game is designed, you want someone out the game asap the same way you want a gen done asap. Its not killers fault for playing well, its the games fault for being designed in a way that tunneling is optimal.
Might as well also ask survivors to not do gens all the way and stop and work on a different one once they hit 33%. If both sides ease up on their objective then tunneling would be less of an issue. If you want killers to play poorly on purpose so you can have more fun survivors need to do it too.
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Its been a rough few week on DBD and the rift is closing soon, I'm dedicating the remaining time to try and let people finish challenges. If they want a normal match I'll do one, but I think everyone can use a break right now. I'm doing what I can to do that for others. So far the response has been positive.
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Nurse needs bugfixes before anything.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1807071#Comment_1807071
If you're trying to finish the current Rift? Probably not.
You have 34 levels of the Rift left. Each Rift level takes 10 fragments. A fragment takes 800 XP, so each Rift level is 8000 XP. So, not taking into account any challenges you do, that's 272,000 XP you need to grind. If you get both XP bonuses for first killer/survivor match every day for the next 22 days, that's 13,200 XP. That leaves 258,800 XP to earn via time spent in match.
Anyone know how much XP is generated per minute in a match? How long would it take to earn 258,800 XP?
(If my math is wrong, I apologize and feel free to correct it. Personally, I earn on average about 500 XP per match, probably. So, earning that much XP would take me about 518 matches.)
Going off the wiki:
- Time played in the trial (1 XP = ~1 second)
- Highest Emblem Quality
- 18 XP for obtaining at least 1 Iridescent Emblem
- 12 XP for obtaining at least 1 Gold Emblem
- 6 XP for obtaining at least 1 Silver Emblem
I think I remember hearing though that at a certain point exp gain from a single match gets reduced heavily or something, not sure on that however. With how much xp stated in your example (272,000), that would be the equivalent of getting from devotion 1 to ~81 (if if did values correctly).
Even just a 3 shard challenge is worth 2,400 exp in terms of conversion, 5 shard challenge being worth 4,000 exp, and completing a tome levels final node is worth 8,000 exp. So that's roughly 5 matches, 8 matches, and 16 matches respectively for each challenge type worth of shards/exp going off a 500 exp average.
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They should have definitely waited for key changes to do this, using a mori against a key was one of the most common solutions, now its just not even viable. Meanwhile keys are still just as strong, if not stronger now that one of their solutions is gone.
I have already been shifting to playing more survivor lately, I guess that trend will continue. I fully expect survivor ques to get worse than they already are, but can't blame people for not playing killer right now.
When the key change does come, it better make them borderline worthless like the mori change or it'll cause another big uproar. Something like, only the last survivor alive can use it or something.
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I wouldn't say the nerf was too much, but I don't really use mori's often.
However they really should have nerfed keys at the same time. Mori's were one of the answers to keys, and now its much weaker while keys kept their strength. I expect even longer survivor ques going forward, can't say I blame people for not wanting to play killer at this point.
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@Seanzu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1804377#Comment_1804377
yea but no one is bringing 4 bnps, we can pretend they are, but I can guarantee PGTW has an incredibly higher amount of use than what BNPs do, let's not even pretend BNPs are getting used often.
BNP gets used up and you need to get more in the bloodweb. Pop is a perk you can always have on. Even if BNP was/is stronger you're going to see it less than pop because you don't have to farm pop uses and hope RNG gives it to you.
If BNP was a perk or something then maybe we could use usage amounts to compare, but as is now that's not a great point to bring up. I still see a decent amount of BNP's, my guess is its just that they're not infinite that I don't see them even more.
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@NekoTorvic said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1793549#Comment_1793549
They don't even need to loop, survivors can literally hold W against a bunch of killers in the roster and just drop pallets instantly, and as long as they have a modicum of coordination and they understand that all they have to do is hold M1 you're either gonna lose or have an immensely difficult time.
I said this on another reply, but it's valid here again, what is the incentive a killer player has to make the game harder on themselves by chasing multiple survivors, multiple times, trying to outplay them all individually over and over, if the other side is literally borderline AFKing while holding a button?
Especially when we have killer characters like the twins that are too inefficient with their time to compete with how quickly gens go. It's inevitable that killers will resort to these tactics which in turn will make the experience worse for survivors...and survivors will only see the tactics and not the underlying causes and issues, and then they will come to ask for punishment for those tactics which then creates resentment from killers who feel even more cornered...and it all devolves into a ######### flinging cycle.
They don't really have an incentive besides being "nice" and being "nice" loses you games. I'm not disagreeing with that point, or any point really made here for that matter. If anything I agree with mostly everything brought up and think it's good to try and raise awareness.
Now what to do about it is the question. Everyone pretty much agrees games go too fast for most of the roster to play the way people want, even if the survivors just hold W for the most part as you said. Ideally we would be making games longer or buffing killers to keep up, while also potentially adding an incentive to not tunnel and not slam gens if they are seen as a big issues (which it seems to be to most people). Reducing map safety and/or adding more survivor objectives is also among potential options. This seems to be in line with what you were proposing as a solution path. I can hear the survivor mains screaming in the future though just for proposing some of these things. We would need a combo of things to really get at the heart of the issue.
Also very nice job describing some of the big issues with the typical perks like DS/UB ect. putting killers in a position where every option is a loss of some kind.
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Not sure about annoying but Hag is probably the most boring killer for me to play personally. Nurse annoys me the most but that's because my camera getting slammed to the floor so much gives me an actual headache. Then throw on the drunk bob she does for extra measure.
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Yeah, if we want killers to go for the 12 hook we need to give them time to do so. As is now, if the survivors can hold M1 and just loop decently, (not even great, just decently) a lot of the cast is going to have a bad time if they try to 12 hook.
I just posted this next line somewhere else: If its effective, its unfun for the other side. If its fun for the other side its weak. There's exceptions but that's the trend.
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@siren_sorceress said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1793178#Comment_1793178
Spread out and never heal, yup. Everyone is forced to be injured or waste time healing against a killer that gets yes, free hits. You can twist it anyway you want, they are free hits. Are there weaknesses around it? Yes, as there should be. But they are still free hits. His counterplay to his actual power in chase is boring bc there is none.
As I said, he's basically fine just poorly designed and thus a buff would not be healthy. I know people that play Legion and do more than fine. I'm not advocating for a nerf or buff, simply a reworking if killers dont enjoy him. I find that hard to believe though so I see him so often.
If he is mid tier, good. Not every killer needs to be a god like Freddy and Spirit. Especially when solo survivors rely solely on rng for their quality of team mates.
Besides, he's most think hes trash bc most killers dont run tiles well at all and they rely heavily on their powers these days. I have 5k hours and rarely come across a killer that runs tiles well at all. They are out there and they are usually m1 pigs and trappers who know how to actually kick ass in tiles.
One of the counter to his "free hit" is literally run in a straight line. If you are anywhere more than a killer shack away (1.5 killers shacks with both duration add-ons) he will not catch up. I do it all the time. Also drop a pallet on him if you can, his powers gone. If you're spread out he can't chain and he's just an M1 killer who stuns himself for too long. If you really want to heal, as long as you stay spread out, if you have any self healing feel free to use it or just heal with a buddy away from Legion and split up again immediately after. If he frenzy's and no one shows up or they are way too far, he's just going to injure one person at a time and go back to M1 mode and basically be a killer with no power. If you are near anyone and you hear the TR getting closer you split immediately. If you see a DW bar appear and you hear the TR run immediately away.
I play as and against Legion at red ranks, the survivors that get chained are the ones who don't spread out or try to stealth around while Legion is in frenzy because they don't know how the killer works. I still see survivors hiding in lockers when I'm in frenzy to this day. If you're struggling against legion you or your team is most likely unskilled or hasn't learned his counter-play or how he even works. You can't do much about your team unless you have friends.
I can tell you now, if I'm in a survivor group we never struggle with Legion unless someone majorly screws up. Even solo as soon as I see the deep wounds bar on anyone I stay away as much as I can, but sometimes you just get those teams where it doesn't matter because they're potatoes.
Not trying to bash or anything, just offering advice/understanding/whatever.
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The effective way of doing pretty much anything is anti-fun for the other side. Tunneling? Unfun. Splitting on gens/gen rush? Unfun. Running DS,BT, BH, blah blah? Unfun. Ruin Undying? Unfun. Mori and Keys? Unfun.
If it's fun for the other side it most likely isn't good. There's exceptions, but that's the trend. Its either fun or effective, not usually both.
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@Rydog said:
It's a fun game with a lot of persistent and seemingly intractable issues, same as ever.
- Perk economy is a disaster -- especially for new players -- because it's impossible to get a grip on this game and work toward something competitively viable without doing a ton of homework and riding the grind bicycle for forever. The game has 138 teachable perks and is in dire need of an overhaul of the entire system, but I presume the devs are too afraid to rip that band-aid off because a bunch of players will scream WAAAAAAAAAH BUT I SPENT TEN THOUSAND HOURS UNLOCKING EVERYTHING!!!!! So did I, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be made better.
- There is no one driving this game's UI or UX. The entire thing, from the needlessly byzantine menu org to the counterintuitive emblem system (which I still can't understand without a spreadsheet even after 2,200 hours), is obviously designed by engineers without any sort of human touch to account for end-user ease of use.
- The new player experience, such as it is, doesn't teach you anything about the game. You essentially have to suffer through a lot of confusion and frustration to find the fun.
- A lack of basic game options, like proper resolution or FOV sliders, brightness settings, granular volume controls, colorblind options, or reticules for projectile attacks. I know all the arguments about these, I just think they're backwards.
- A lot of balance issues that the devs seemingly think it's OK to paper over with perks, which is the worst kind of non-solution.
- Developer-sanctioned toxicity because of game elements that are designed to create bad experiences, like moris and keys.
- A predatory revenue model that combines a not-inexpensive base game, an aggressive paid DLC calendar, a heavily upsold in-game RMT currency, a Fortnite-esque season pass model, a mobile-game-caliber slog to earn anything via in-game currency, and a giant grind layered on top of all of it in order for players to get anywhere.
- ...combined with inadequate playtesting that leads to entire major patches being riddled with issues, a la the current situation with the launch of the Twins chapter. They literally just asked you to buy an expansion where five of the six new perks don't work as intended.
- The fact that this is coming out of the largest independent game developer in Canada. They can do better.
Obviously those are just a bunch of gripes. You've all heard it from me before. I also continue to play this game because it's fun. There are just a lot of issues that are "really should have been fixed a long time ago" things, so I don't really extend a lot of understanding about them. This game really needs a Rainbow Six-esque Operation Health patch, but I don't see it happening.
One day, someone is going to do this one-vs-many genre right, and deliver a well-supported product that isn't DOA. Behaviour really ought to be preparing for that day by improving and modernizing their game so that it doesn't get its lunch eaten. At this point, I kinda wish they had the good sense to take everything they've learned and just make Dead by Daylight 2.
This is pretty much my feelings as well. Just change the fact I'm not playing much right now and add in that longstanding balance issues just don't get addressed, even if their fixes are potentially simple. Giving DS deactivate conditions for example or making Iri. heads limit your hatchets to 1 instead of just reducing them. This is part of the reason the meta is so stale, the way too strong stuff is still way too strong. I personally feel like the balance team just does not understand the game.
Considering the most recent chapter debacle and direction of the game as a whole, I am not very optimistic about the future of DBD.
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I am of the mind that if your team lost then they lost, that's just the nature of a team based game. I don't think we need to give the last survivor a chance based get out of jail free card that can screw the killer out of a kill they deserve. If the concern is holding the game hostage we now have EGC that we can implement in its place.
I don't really think it's "fair" in its current state as its inclusion really only benefits survivors and it doesn't do much but undermine the match and what should be its results or allow multiple people to get out with keys and such. I would just start EGC when 1 survivor is left or if there has been no chase for a very long time to prevent hostage situations. Rough idea but something along those lines.
It should not be in your favor, or close to it, to escape if you are down to 1 player in what was a 4 man team.
If hatch is included to stop survivors from holding the game hostage, it sound strange to me that the solution is giving them a free escape option. Feels like rewarding bad behavior.
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Tie the area affected to the killer or the survivor hit so it moves with them, possibly tweak the duration to compensate.
Reduce the cooldown or remove the hex status. Having both on one perk is a bit much.
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Yeah hook suicide is pretty much a "legal" DC. It's been a problem for a long time and to my knowledge the devs have said nothing about it. Making struggle automatic would be my first step. People can't suicide and the mashing is (finally) gone. Making unhook attempts not drain the bar (but still limiting the amount of tries) could also be a change. You would also need an afk checker since then people will just leave the keyboard/controller and do something else if they couldn't suicide.
Its definitely a complex problem to tackle, but one that should be. Its understandable to feel frustrated about your teammates suiciding in your games. People should be ready to play if they que up, even if they don't like how the match is going.
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I think the base function of keys and moris above the weakest versions (broken key and yellow mori) are the core of the problem. Opening hatch before endgame (possibly for more than one person) and removing someone from the game early are potentially just too strong and seem to be the focus of everyone's gripes with both.
Maybe keys only open hatch during EGC for 1 person and moris only work on death hook. Potentially buff keys aura reading aspects to help out with the changes.
Alternatively we could go the "removal" type of route and keys just don't open hatch at all, really focus on their aura aspects, and moris are gone, but the yellow one is base-kit since its just an animation on an already dead survivor. Alternatively, we could add an option of carrying any survivor that's on death hook to a hooks location (allowing for saves and DS and such) and in addition to the hook/sacrifice option, we get a mori option as well.
There's a lot of directions they could go, I just hope they don't end up making things somehow worse.
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@Boddy604 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1781711#Comment_1781711
Disagree.
I play a decent amount of ph and I usually hook people who are tormented just so i can skip the last hook/cage and use final judgement on them.
I've always felt like torment should be cleared after being caged OR hooked because it just becomes so powerful late game.
I play a decent amount of PH too, you should be able to choose to hook them and keep torment, at least in its current form. Sending them to the cage each time is not a good play since it can lead to very easy saves. It can potentially stop a DS, but that seems to be the whole point of the power anyway. If you want to DS just don't run over the trail. If it cleared from hook then it would need to be applied on his ranged attack as well so that you always have the choice if you can land it. Right now a survivor needs to decide to run over the trail, and even if you use the cage on them it can harm your pressure. Making it removed on hook as well would make it way too weak in its current form imo.
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@SheKIndaSucks said:
I play both equally. My issue with killer will always be that it feels way more stressful at high ranks, and the second you make one little #########-up, you may end up losing the game. Whilst on the other side, survivors have so god damn many second chances. It's infuriating.
I play both sides as well and this is a pretty similar to how I feel. There's too many second chances and we're potentially getting another one with the new chapter.