MrPenguin
MrPenguin
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Almost every match I play I have tunneling survivors ☹️
It's so unfun to have the entire match be over in only a few minuets. Something should really be done about it.
Survivors shouldn't be able to get a gen to 33% and then continue working on that gen until they get the other gens to 33%, they should have to spread their pressure so everyone can enjoy a longer match and the killer can have a reasonable chance for 12 hooks.
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If the values are going to stay small, I just wouldn't make the obsession immune. So you can start to work against the boost they have at least. If the perk wants you to both not go after the obsession to gain stacks and also not kill them to keep stacks, it shouldn't make them immune as well imo.
If they are going to stay immune I would just increase the penalty and try to make it into into a sort of "1 obsession army" type of deal and change the heal boost from the obsession healing others to the obsession themselves being healed (i.e. healing the obsession gets boosted by x percent). To help keep them alive and feed into the theme. Spice up the gameplay a little you know.
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I don't see a problem with that.
I'd personally like the BBQ BP bonus as well (NOT the aura reading) since at that point you're giving up a whole perk for literally just BP's. The grind is too much and not being able to help it just because you're paying a certain killer, feels bad man.
In both cases, as you said, it doesn't affect gameplay.
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Yeah people have been saying this pretty much since the perk was released. There's been recommendations to have the 16m area follow the killer for the duration so the next pallet gets blocked, among other things, but so far no word on any changes for it afaik.
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Killers slug for the 4k because hatch exist and killers feel robbed of their last kill. Remove/rework hatch and have the EGC start in its place, fix the gate spawns so they can't be on the same side of the map. If you want to go an extra step, have gate times depend on how many gens were left or how many hook states the last survivor has remaining, something. That'd be my personal solution.
If it still feels like a 50/50 the killer will still slug for the 4k for the same reason as the hatch. The "well I guess I just guessed wrong and lost my kill that I earned" needs to go.
The last survivor has to at least earn their escape, not luck into it. Personally I'm usually fine with the 3k, but the hatch luck search is annoying and feels kinda cheap to have the survivor just get out because they got lucky.
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As a lot of others have said, the game is generally very stacked against killers, you rely on the survivors being subpar or making mistakes the grand majority of the time.
If you really want to stick to killer and want to win above all else, your best bet is using Spirit or Nurse. Spirit being much much easier to play than Nurse as long as you have a good headset and some game knowledge. But if you want the absolute best chance Nurse is the better bet (although she has like 1000 bugs that hurt her). Again, I would recommend Spirit, she's only one step weaker, but still very strong and not very difficult to learn.
Even then against optimal teams, you can struggle.
As for perks, if you want just a strong build don't use BBQ. Killers use it a lot mainly for the BP bonus because the grind is insane, the tracking is outclassed by other perks that you should use instead if you just want a strong build. Things like Whispers, Thrilling tremors, Spies, ect. Even surveillance is stronger imo especially with a synergizing perk like Ruin or Surge.
If you're having trouble with getting to gens and the survivors being gone already, Monitor from The Doctor can help. If you can get your hands on it get corrupt intervention, it helps to not have survivors just jump on gens as soon as the match starts and for setup killers it gives them some time.
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I agree, but without a fundamental rework of the games core hook/death mechanic tunneling will always be a good strategy and widely used. Unfortunately, I don't think that's ever happening.
I don't think survivors should drop DS if they care about tunneling since it still helps against that, the ones dropping it will be the ones who knowingly abused it or who are overreacting imo. There's a certain mindset of "this got nerfed so it must be bad now" that might play in as well.
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My first reaction: "what..."
-reads again- "WHAT"
My third reaction: "This is a joke it has to be."
-sees 1 post on the account-
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I shouldn't be losing count of how many safe pallets there are because there are so many on the map, let alone when I can see 3+ 10-20 steps away from each other.
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From what I've seen I think a decent chunk of people are overreacting. Getting a lot of "the killer downed me/was playing the game so he was tunneling" types coming out since the announcement and people saying things like "but if I jump on a gen then the killer comes for me 15 seconds later I was still tunneled". They don't understand part of the problem was they could make progress and use it as a free pass essentially and that they put themselves in the killers way half the time as well. Also, as commonly said "If you're on a gen you're not being tunneled" and may I add if you are getting tunneled and you jump on a gen that's your fault and not the perks.
It going from absolute free pass for whatever to something more focused/tame has really set off the people who heavily rely on the perk or just don't understand the situation imo.
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I'm not 100% sure what the poll is asking but this is the closest to what I hope they do for keys and rework/remove the hatch entirely.
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They would just do the opposite that a killer does, leave the ones that are strong for them remove the ones that get in their way. But there's 4 survivors and 1 killer so they'd do it potentially at 4 places at once. They also have the luxury of time which the killer does not. I think it'd be a bit too strong for the survivors to have control over without making it a massive time sink.
I'd rather just remove breakable walls but that's not happening.
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@DownUnder said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1957374#Comment_1957374
No, you misunderstood me, I don't have problem as you know: "Killers down me in every game with Noed reeee, so I come to forum cry about it reee". No, made this topic because the upcoming DS and OoO change, so I figured why not make a Noed topic, so maybe we can change every old / badly designed perk.
Alright. But why is it badly designed exactly? That seems to be a point of contention. You get 1 exposed hit and then survivors know to go cleanse the totem. That's assuming you don't want to cleanse all 5 beforehand and stop it from activating at all with any of its counters.
It's not OP and effectively encounterable the way DS and OoO were/are, so I don't think a comparison between the 2 is fair. I down for changing the perk, but first the issue(s) needs to be identified. I don't really think the points listed in the OP are really issues besides maybe the warning one potentially. But giving it an immediate warning at endgame would just nerf an already meh perk without something to compensate. As others have said, the "rewards bad killers" narrative that gets thrown around sometimes isn't exactly accurate.
I think, if anything, the perks is on the weaker side and needs to be reworked to have a strong during match effect and not just an endgame gamble. That way it can be a notification when the primary effect happens (even though I think hex notifications shouldn't be a thing but for the sake of argument). But idk what you're going to do since then you get into the issue of hex totems being easy to find and if an endgame effect stays it would be effectively useless and never activate.
As is now I have stopped using the perk like a year ago since its not very good, just annoying sometimes. Its only potentially useful in endgame builds, which gives it a spot at least, or on certain maps which you have to luck into and hope you get a spot thats hard to find on top. Endgame is such a small portion of the match however, making it not really worth it imo, especially since you have to rely on survivors playing into your build.
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I think hatch can be replaced with EGC at this point so the last survivor has to earn their escape, not just luck into it. Of course door spawns would have to be fixed as well so they can't be on the same wall, ideally they would be fixed location across the map from each other like on Lery's and such.
1 survivor left, EGC starts and hatch spawns in closed and a key can open it. Keys still have a use, but only 1 survivor can use it, and hatch challenges/achievements are still doable. Gits rid of the luck based hatch race.
Just my personal idea.
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If you're really having so many problems with it just run Small Game or DH. A perk for a perk. Survivors have 16 perks on their team, giving up 1 for NoED insurance sounds like a good deal.
You can also bring a map.
Otherwise just do the totems beforehand or the 1 after it procs.
NoED really isn't that big a deal imo. Outside of a few maps, totems aren't usually hard to find. Especially once you learn their typical spots.
I'd be in favor of giving small game a totem counter to help, I think that'll be fine. Help the Solo's and such.
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NoED is pretty meh as a perk on either side imo, so I'd much rather get a buff to something else than keep a meh perk I don't even use or have problems with the same.
Although honestly just give small game a totem counter. A perk for a perk.
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Depends on your definition of "slight" and "huge". A number change or something won't do it so I went with huge. She shouldn't be able to pinpoint a survivors location exactly if she's going at high speed while also being invisible with no tell.
Something needs to be outright removed from her, whether is speed, tracking, sounds, or whatever in my opinion. Just knowing she's phasing won't be enough I think, because that doesn't mean you can do anything about it, it'll just stop the standing still "mind game" (which does need to go tbf). Although she could just phase in place, but at least she'll have to use her power to do so.
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I use a fair chunk of the roster, comparing my experience when playing her to the others, I tend to have a much easier time with her even though I play her once in a blue moon (so I'm not a spirit pro or anything).
I'd say she's pretty easy to do well with. All you need is a good headset and some basic game knowledge. She's just too strong for her lack of difficulty imo.
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Both sides need to agree to either play optimally or play for fun. Saying one side can and the other can't is silly, I agree.
If the survivors are going to focus/rush gens asap then the killer is going to focus killing someone asap and vice versa.
I do think the community at large needs to realize this. Since its the the topic of discussion, if the survivors really have such a problem with these tactics (which overall it seems they do) then yes, they need to stop doing the gens so quickly so the killers have time to play the "fun" way.
I don't see anyone saying "this gen is at 33% we need to stop guys and go work on another one before we finish this one." That's what you're asking the other side to do you should do the same.
If a killer does 1 chase and 2-3 gens are finished then yeah, get ready for focused play on the other side as well aka tunneling ect. If survivors do 1 gen and someone is dead then same thing.
Of course the game is a little more complicated but that's the rough idea.
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@Pulsar said:
I chose not to see "Killer mains" or "Survivors mains."
There are only reasonable people and unreasonable people.
This. I don't mind what side you main. I care about what you're saying.
I will say however maining one side makes you much more prone to ignoring the other sides problems or just not understanding them. Not that that's an excuse, its just harder for those people to grasp what they don't experience or see. Also group mentality and whatnot.
That's my guess as to why the "mains" are usually the much more unreasonable ones, although not always. I always try to experience both sides of things before solidifying my thoughts on matters if I can.
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I normally don't comment on things concerning the devs but here I go.
Unfortunately, they devs have shown they mostly listen when the community makes a very big fuss about things. "Giving them a break" has shown to not work in the past and basically give them a free pass.
They're just incompetent or in denial or both as well as extremely slow at doing anything. For example, the Legion bug, their first response was basically "oh its not bugged, you guys don't know what you're talking about". It took the community pretty much yelling at them that it was for a month or so for them to be like "Ok guys I guess we'll look at it. Oh he is bugged". It took months to fix.
Their stance on OoO took the community basically making fun of them for month on end for them to be like "ok maybe we were wrong". Its taking months to fix or even decide what to do.
Look at the new UI, got shown community didn't like it, got released to PTB, community liked it even less, got pushed to live, surprise, community still doesn't like it. Their attitude was basically "Look, I know you guys hate it and are yelling at us, but we want to see if the console players yell at us too."
It takes overwhelming negativity to get their attention and to get them to stop being so stubborn.
There seems to be an ego problem or they believe they know better than everyone else when it has been shown multiple times before that they make horrible decisions and don't understand the game.
I'm sure there's good devs in the department, but there's a problem(s) somewhere, my guess would be the top of the chain but who knows for sure. I'm not for dev bashing or anything, but making a big deal of things and yelling for a long time seems to be what they respond to.
They make a lot more mistakes than the average game of this size, whether that be bugs or bad decisions or whatever.
The devs will get a break when they give the community a break from their bad practices/decisions. People have a lot of reasons to be upset, past what I put here.
With all due respect, they do it to themselves and put themselves in bad positions.
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Some examples of gross (imo) pallet amounts:
https://imgur.com/68vjOQp
https://imgur.com/667cDXA
https://youtu.be/bWsI8uncaYs?t=344All credit to original creators.
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The community thinks the map is pretty survivor sided as shown here: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/225779/game-rework-survivor-sided-balanced-or-killer-sided
I agree with the community, its pretty survivor sided imo.
Also some examples if you care:
https://imgur.com/68vjOQp
https://imgur.com/667cDXAAlso a video example for you:
https://youtu.be/bWsI8uncaYs?t=344 -
@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1940069#Comment_1940069
Well, I hope I never see a post from you about inexperienced Killers then, if you really think that players who are new to the game should not get assistance.
But whatever, I am fine to disagree.
There's a difference between assistance and hand holding, new players should have the tools to reasonably learn, they don't need the game to figure stuff out for them to this degree. Both sides should be held to that standard imo. You have the end screen to help you with perks as well as just loading into a custom games to look at every single perk. The game shouldn't tell you mid match what perk is in play just for free.
I mean if you want to put an indicator over survivors to let the killer specifically know they have UB, Spine Chill, Breakout, BT or something (random picks fyi) and when its gone, we can go that way too, as long as its equal (although I'd rather not). Right now its not equal. Killers have to figure out or assume many more perks or get told when it doesn't matter anymore (like DS/Head-on for example) and survivors are just told "yeah they have Lullaby btw, go break it before it gets any good use" or "I know you got exposed, but here's exactly why and how long it'll last". Its very uneven.
I'd rather both have to figure it out. Just to be extra clear I'd rather not do what was outlined in the second paragraph written here, but if its equal on both sides I'd probably be ok with it even if its not what I'd prefer. But yeah, I'm fine to disagree as well.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1939979#Comment_1939979
The thing is - the most common used Hex is still Ruin. I can figure out that the Killer has Ruin in a few seconds. And if the first Totem is cleansed, I know that Ruin is still in play. And at this point, it does not matter if the Killer had Undying or any other Hex-Perk. The only thing that is different is that for the Killer, it is a 0% Chance that Ruin gets cleansed first instead of 50%.
But for the Survivors, it does not really change anything. And personally, I dont care that much about the Aura Reading of Undying, it just exists to give the Perk an effect when using only Undying.
When it comes to Notifactions tho, I could totally go with Undying not revealing itself, would be fine by me. Lullaby however (what you also mentioned) should always be revealed. For experienced Survivors, it does not matter, they will know once 1 Token is on Lullaby, that Lullaby is in play. But inexperienced Survivors need to know why their Skill Checks get more difficult and more important, they need the Hex-Notification to know what to do about it.
I don't know why you keep bringing up undyings new transfer mechanics or ruin, no ones talking about those in anything relevant to this conversation.
Inexperienced survivors need to learn the game, not have their hand held. I disagree with Lullaby needing a notification, you should notice your skill checks getting shorter and eventually quiet and put 2 and 2 together, not have the game do it for you. That's learning the game and part of being inexperienced.
Why did this happen? -checks end screen- oh that perk is why, next time I'll know and cleanse it. They don't need to be hand held. Or just research the perks on your own.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1939875#Comment_1939875
Out of interest, what is the problem if a Dull Totem gets revealed to a Survivor? Obviously, if you run NOED, this would be a problem, but someone who runs NOED on top of Undying+another Hex (aka lots of Perks that can be disabled) has other problems already.
But if Survivors see a Dull Totem or get notified by it, they might cleanse it, so they will spend less time on a Gen.
And that you know that Undying is active is not really relevant IMO, since there is no difference between Undying + a Hex and two Hexes, except that Undying will be cleansed first 100% of the time.
Imo killer perks shouldn't be giving survivors free info such as "hey there's a totem here and also just so you know your aura is revealed and the killer most likely has 2 hexes so get to looking."
Its just worsens the already existing "hexes don't last" problem. Now the survivors know there's a hex (most likely 2) just for existing around a dull totem.
Why tho?
Also if someone wants to run those 3 hexes they should be able to without the build countering itself when hexes are already not in a great spot.
Undying counters itself as well by just letting them cleanse the dull totems that are supposed to give the killer aura reading by notifying them its there and to be on the lookout going forward for other dulls.
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@Yords said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1935929#Comment_1935929
It is actually pretty un-manageable in a solo team. Solo is the main problem with NOED.
Just break the 1 totem during endgame if you're solo.
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Hex Undying: Once per survivor, reveal that a dull totem is nearby to that survivor.
They just need to remove the free info survivors get from all hexes please. If you want to show them "exposed" fine but you don't need to specify its from this or that perk, they should figure that out on their own. Things like Lullaby and Undying don't need to announce their presence.
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@luzibrat said:
so like even though i agree that there's more pallets, ya'll still managing to hit through / teleport to the other side when the pallet's already been dropped / stunned you bc of messed up hit boxes.
That's not a map problem though, that's a problem with the entire game.
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I saw somewhere that it might be a desync or something between survivor and killer as on the killer side the hit look fine but on survivor side it looks ridiculous. But killers are also getting hits that look like they're just going through people so who knows.
Hope it gets fixed soon.
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@Crazewtboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1937989#Comment_1937989
Guess it boils down to a person-by-person basis. To me, this is not toxic. It doesn't make me mad. They just benefit me by standing still
"Actually getting annoyed or not doesn't change whether its toxic"
Bruh its in the first line lol. Whether it bothers you (general you not you specifically) or not doesn't matter. Its a taunt and nothing more, therefore its toxic.
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@Crazewtboy said:
Haven't played a lot of killer, but you will always have the salty people who are mad they get outplayed. That being said, tbagging isn't really toxic. If you are getting annoyed by someone crouching repeatedly, then perhaps there is an issue with what you perceive as toxic
Actually getting annoyed or not doesn't change whether its toxic it just means it failed to get to you. Yes T-bagging is toxic as is doesn't do anything to progress the game or have any benefit and its sole reason is to try and annoy another player.
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"It's something that every good killer should remember without handholding."
Then survivors should be held to the same standard. Give both sides the general counter or give both the tally marks. If a killer has to check to see how many times you've been hooked you haven't been tunneled.
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@Avarice10 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1936856#Comment_1936856
You're definitely new if you've only been playing for 3 years because you weren't playing DBD back in 2016 when the game truly was Survivor sided. If you think the pallets on The Game are "God-like" then you need to see this to understand how much has been done to balance DBD since then.
How it was in 2016 doesn't matter. Just because its better doesn't mean its good. The question is how is it now. No, 3 years is not "new", not that it matters.
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My only issue with spies is on certain maps it might as well be an empty perk slot because of lack of crow spawns. Besides that I like the perk.
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My guy/gal, please format and separate that text building into smaller sections. It'll make it easier on the eyes to read.
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They don't have to revert it, they just need to move the icons around. That shouldn't be very hard at all.
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@ChurchofPig said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1936830#Comment_1936830
This is just me personally I'm sure 90% of the community is going to disagree with me but I don't like that. The only reason is I hate having too much information on top of each other. It's too much. When I look at how many gens are left I don't want to know who's in what health state and how my item/power is lookin atm. What I'd want to know is generators. (That was just an example) So personally for me, it may be all over the place but it works. To keep it from being too distracting I just shrunk the UI to 85%.
Well they could give the option between spread out and focused. It should just be number changes if they coded well (from my understanding at least).
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@alaenyia No I've been playing the game for almost 3 years now. Your experience is not lining up with most peoples it would appear, so RNG might just be working against you or something else is going on. I'm just saying most people are experiencing a lot of pallets and a lot are safe. That map has always had really safe pallets, it just seems they amped up how many either in amount in general or how many are safe or both.
@Milo Yes I understand the map has very little windows, the same as it had in the past. Making it up in pallets is fine but they went a little too far in the rework it would seem.
Alternatively, people are just noticing now how many pallets there are on that map that are safe and realizing there are too many. So a reduction would probably be the quickest fix or making more unsafe pallets spawn in place of safe ones.
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@Freki You're good. Wasn't sure on my first read so I was going to ask but you cleared that up in the last segment. Just posting this for your peace of mind, just in case :)
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Made this in a few minuets so excuse the rough edits, but something like this would be a big improvement imo.
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@alaenyia said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1936640#Comment_1936640
Just because there are pallets on the map, they are neither safe or god-like. So showing the amount of pallets on the map does not prove your point. We already knew there were pallets there.
Ok but most of those pallets are god and safe pallets as others have said. On top of that there are way more pallets than before. Yes the old ones are still there, but now there's a ton around them/the map that weren't there before.
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@Iosefka said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1936746#Comment_1936746
Should undetectable status %100 counter borrowed time then ? By simply pressing ctrl ? Camping and tunneling really problem in this game and pig can do it very easily. In my games all Pig players hardcore tunnelers and they love proxy camping. %80 of my matches i always die to Pigs and they generally 3K or 4k. Nobody can do gens because of traps, nobody can heal because of traps, nobody can save because of crouch
She only has 4 traps without add-ons, your team shouldn't be so handicapped by them.
As for BT, I don't personally think undetectable and stuff should counter BT, but I also think BT itself needs some changes because survivors just hook bomb because of it very frequently.
Pig is weak in chase and her only form of map pressure is her traps which are limited and random how much time you will get from them. Everyone can get lucky and get them off quick or everyone can get unlucky, and everything in-between.
If she is camping do gens. She either leaves and then you save or she just loses the game. A lot of Killers camp because survivors reward them for doing so. If it keeps working they're going to keep doing it.
As for tunneling, its widely agreed that tunneling the person with the tap on is a pretty bad strat on pig because the other survivors will just do gens. Its better to pressure someone while another gets the trap off.
As someone else mentioned, if you have a trap focus on getting it off. If its not active you can maybe heal, but otherwise get it off asap.
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Be grateful they made the UI worse for the majority of people? No, people should be able to voice their disapproval.
On the eye strain issue, you aren't those people, you can't say whether its hurting their eyes/giving them a headache or not. Playing Nurse gives me a headache because of the fatigue animation and how frequent it is. Other people clearly don't have that problem. That doesn't make it any less real or valid.
You shouldn't be applauding ignoring other peoples pain/discomfort/disapproval just because you personally don't have it. That's toxic and close minded imo. Especially with how widespread it seems to be.
The fact of the matter is, most people don't like the change, they said they didn't like the change in the PTB and when it got revealed, then it got pushed to live anyway, and then even more people got it and didn't like it, and the previous feedback was ignored so now those people who gave said feedback are a little peeved.
Most people don't like the change and they should be able to express that as long as its not an insult, attack, ect. But according to you we should be grateful they made this part of the game worse. That's asinine.
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Well he was kinda made to counter DS because DS was being abused, if they go through with the changes they have for DS and it proves to not be a problem then I don't see why they'd have to keep his power a counter. But it also doesn't work with any other hook perks so that gets a little tricky past there.
Some tips in the meantime to maybe help:
- If PH is around the cage for a bit it'll respawn far away again, so you could maybe use that
- If you're getting tunneled try not to step in his trails till after you DS him
- If someone gets caged and appears near you, save them immediately and walk, don't run, away so you don't leave scratch marks. He'll be across the map and by the time he gets there you should be long gone.
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https://imgur.com/68vjOQp@alaenyia said:
I just played a match at the Meat Packing Plant as a survivor. Never again, I would rather DC and take the penalty that have to be on that ridiculous map again. They installed crap tons of those breakable doors that survivors have zero control creating dead ends all over the place, so chases were short and unproductive and there was a bunch of body blocking opportunity. That map was the worst before, but they have outdone themselves now. I won't be going back. But in all fairness it has gotten over all so killer sided, I don't want to bother much anyway. I was once a daily player, If I play a few matches a week now its a lot. With every patch and pro-killer upgrade, I play less and less.
https://imgur.com/667cDXANo there's safe pallets everywhere now, you either got unlucky or jut didn't run correctly.
as of writing this its pretty much agreed its survivor sided now.
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Yes!
To quote myself on another thread about the same subject:
A lot of people talking about the map reworks: "The map design has improved so much and all the reworked maps are balanced"
The reworked map design:
Not saying all the reworked maps are bad, but they're not exactly good either. Like I think its blood lodge that has a insanely strong window even if you break the wall next to it that you can just loop until its blocked.
Now Gideon is just safe pallet town, oof.
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I mean, that's been happening to a degree, so maybe that's why we're seeing changes to things that needed changes for a very long time being changed now (DS, OoO, ect.). That's what I personally believe is happening but we can't say for sure one way or the other.
Although, it's kinda sad to think things needed to get to this point or potentially worse for changes to be made. Pretty obvious changes at that (imo).
I hope that's not the case but it definitely looks that way. Even if it is the case they most likely won't admit it or just flat out deny it.
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A lot of people talking about the map reworks: "The map design has improved so much and all the reworked maps are balanced"
The reworked map design:
Not saying all the reworked maps are bad, but they're not exactly good either. Like I think its blood lodge that has a insanely strong window even if you break the wall next to it that you can just loop until its blocked.
Now Gideon is just safe pallet town, oof.
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On the original topic, if you don't like doing all 5 totems then just do the 1 NoED totem at endgame. That's what I do. Yeah the killer might down one person but you have to choose between saving time or disabling 1 of the killers 4 perks while your side has 16 and theirs only activates at the end of the game.
So ether use time now or take a gamble and risk using time later.