MrPenguin
MrPenguin
About
- Username
- MrPenguin
- Joined
- Visits
- 1,543
- Last Active
Comments
-
The vast majority of the time Survivor sided for reasons others have pointed out.
Survivors start in the winning position and need to throw for the killer to win. Thankfully a lot of survivors are bad at the game so they mess up a lot.
You get 4 good survivors and the killer is most likely losing.
I'd say in levels of power probably: bad solos < very bad swf < most killers < 4 good solos < Nurse and Spirit < good swf
Killers are too dependent on a weak link or survivor mistakes to do well, the outcome of the game is determined mostly by the survivors. So its survivor sided.
-
@Clünge said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2193286#Comment_2193286
And how often does that happen?
Lol. I have BT active, let me just stand blocking this doorway as my main objective
Often enough to be a concern. Especially if I'm playing with friends, we all block with BT.
In either case, the main point is its not as simple as "go around" if they're blocking correctly. Survivors will literally put themselves in the way and there's not much the killer can do but choose which way they are taking the L.
Just make them lose collision if they have BT up and the problem will be solved without affecting the anti-camp/tunnel portion of it.
-
@Clünge said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2191378#Comment_2191378
Move around them & don't blow your load early
-survivor stands in the entry to a structure- Ah ok, guess I'll go around the entire building or tile. If it was as easy as "move around them" it wouldn't be a "block".
"move around them" only works in the wide open, which is the minority of the time considering there's tiles everywhere.
-
He needs to be better on both sides. Stronger as a killer but with meaningful counter-play to his power when facing him as survivor.
Hid add-ons need to be redone as well. In favor of a complete rework/overhaul.
-
The perk is strong, people are just stuck on their other meta build they've been using for 2 years and don't want to try anything else.
Getting out of your first chase for close to free is pretty strong, especially if you're the first survivor found.
-
I play both sides so I can't say I'm a "main", but of things on this poll I'd pick SWF, of anything I'd pick gen speeds.
Even 4 good solo's can make it rough for killers if they do gens effectively just because the speeds are kinda dumb compared to chase times.
-
@Alionis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2182196#Comment_2182196
Off the top of my head, I only remember the original version of nurse's anxious gasp add-on, but I know such cases still exist with many newer add-ons. Of course that stuff could be reworked, the wiki has done that, but right now, it's not as simple (as some suggest) as flipping a switch to replace all modifiers with the value.
Anxious gasp used to say that it considerably increases the blink movement speed. So people would probably assume that behind that considerable increase, the value would be something like +15% to movement speed, right?
However, how the devs actually increased her blink movement speed was by telling the game to reduce the time it takes her to reappear after blinking by -15%. The resulting effect is the same: she moves faster, since the game tells her that she must reappear at the target distance sooner than usual, forcing her to move faster from A to B during a blink (basic principle of the speed-distance-time triangle).
So in cases like this, "flipping the switch" would result in the value "contradicting" with the description. That's what I meant.
We'll have to agree to disagree on the second point, as I don't find your arguments compelling, and you don't find mine compelling either, apparently.
Then the descriptions already contradict themselves using the same example you just did. It doesn't "considerably increase blinking speed" it "considerably reduces time to reappear after a blink." But that system "works" in the game.
If the resulting effect is the same, like you said and I agree with, then there's no need to change the description so drastically to reflect the underlying code. We don't need the underlying code, no ones asking for the underlying code.
The point isn't "the description doesn't reflect the underlying code", that's pretty normal in games. It's "the description doesn't give me a value I can use reliably of how much its changing what its changing." It's just what someone felt like it was.
If you changed that add-on to say "Increases blink speed by 15%" then its done, that's all that's being asked for, is to get rid of the "slightly" and just give us an accurate number of how strong the effect is.
You can pretty much take the value the wiki gives on the mouse over and slap it in and you'd be done or just give everything you can as a percent value. I can't think of an add-on where that wouldn't work, every example I gave would be fine.
"Increases blink speed by 15%"
"reduces cooldown by 15%/0.6 sec"
"Increases charge rate by 50%"
"Increases EWlll duration by 10 seconds/16%"
It' not difficult to implement and works just fine.
-
@Alionis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2182139#Comment_2182139
Yes, it wouldn't. Most game descriptions, as they are currently, are not compatible with the actual values behind them, it's the main reason the wiki's descriptions are almost always different, while keeping the sense.
Yes, they are all over the place, but I explained why that is.
There's no reason why they would be "not compatible", how is changing "slightly reduces charge time" to "reduces charge time by 50%" not compatible? Its already working just fine in the perks so I don't understand why you came to that conclusion. If you trying to say the slight rephrasing, which is just a text change for grammar reasons, is somehow groundbreakingly hard to change that's asinine. I just did it.
As for the second point yes you explained why you think that's how it is, and I explained why that's not a good reason too keep it as so if that is the case and how that's a flawed system.
-
@Alionis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2182034#Comment_2182034
What's the big deal?
I gave the reasoning for that: it wouldn't work for a majority of the current add-on, they'd have to be reworded and rephrased, which is likely to be at the end of the devs' list of priorities.
It wouldn't work to have the already implemented values just typed out? How?
Just change "Moderately reduces charge time" to "reduces charge time by 10%" or "Moderately reduces charge time by 1 second", whichever or both if you want.
If you're talking about when you said "Different add-ons affect different values. You can't just go "well, slightly will now mean 10% for add-ons in the game"" then you seem to have misunderstood. I never said we should change all "slightly" to 10% or anything of the sort, I've been advocating to get rid of it entirely and just make the current values visible.
When I was talking about values I was just showcasing how they are all over the place since you asked for clarification on how they're inconsistent.
-
@Alionis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2181832#Comment_2181832
Sorry, I confused the two Add-ons, but my point remains that the difference between default charge time and add-on charge time isn't all that big, despite the seemingly large percentage.
I think you have not quite understood what the words refer to exactly. They do not refer to the value, ever. They only refer to the effect that value has on the result of that which it modifies, because depending on what it modifies, a given percentage such as 5% can be just as much a big effect (ie for chance) as it can be a small effect (ie charge time).
The metric the devs use, is the change in resulting effect compared to the default value. If the effect is small, it's "slightly/moderately", if it's large it's "considerably/tremendously". If that's insufficient a metric to you, then I don't know what your problem is exactly, because it's logical to me. Especially the second part of your argument seems to indicate to me that you have a big misconception about the modifiers. Again, they are in relation to the effect, NOT the values.
Different add-ons affect different values. You can't just go "well, slightly will now mean 10% for add-ons in the game", that would cause some add-ons to be completely out of whack, whereas others would have an effect that might as well be inexistent.
As far as I know that has never been stated by the devs, but even if that is the case then its all subjective and there's no reason to not include the numbers since its up to the person anyway. You don't consider the Pigs Combat straps and video tape a big deal, but I've heard plenty a pig main say how those add-ons are very strong. Old Demo rat liver and rat tail were pretty impactful (and still are), but they also said/say "slightly".
Even with that metric then the values don't line up correctly. Some of the killers much stronger add-ons still say "slightly" or "moderately". If the devs are projecting what they think an add-on is worth then they really shouldn't because they have shown they don't understand their own game or they should update the descriptions as the game develops and the players who actually understand the game determine what's worth what (and even then there's not agreement).
If they just include the values however they wouldn't need to since its right there and people can decide what's worth it or not and how strong they are on their own.
There are "considerable" add-ons I would consider "slightly" and "slightly" I would put under "considerably".
There's still more reason to include actual values than just "well as a dev I feel like its this strong." Well good for you but this is supposed to be here for information not your feelings.
This is also is at odds with what you said earlier and the branching point for this whole convo with "you peeps don't understand the math." There's no math to "I feel like its this strong".
So its either inconsistent values, or subjective/misleading descriptions. Either way it can all be avoided by just having the numbers and should change. There's no substantial benefit, if any benefit at all, to keeping it the way it is now.
I can look at botany and be like "hmm, well its 33% is that worth it over x or y?" as opposed to if it said "moderately increases healing speed" or if Ruin said "regresses at a moderately increased speed". Thanks you gave me no info besides "increases x by a value the dev feels is moderate."
They already have numbers on perks, what's the big deal with add-ons and items?
-
@Alionis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2181750#Comment_2181750
Can you elaborate on the "there's no consistency" part?
As for pig's add-on: sure 50% is a lot in terms of percentage, but is the effect all that big? Crouching already doesn't take long to complete, so 50% off of that isn't all that much of a difference.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2180393#Comment_2180393
Have you noticed how many descriptions on the wiki are different from the game? I don't work for the wiki, but I remember one of the admins saying that they had to do this to be able to add the mouseover stuff showing the values, since many of the numbers wouldn't make sense with the game's description. The admin gave the example of a clown add-on. Bottle of chloroform, I think. The game says that it expands the area of effect, whereas the wiki says that it expand the area of effect as well as increases the velocity of the gas cloud spreading out, since that is how the code actually makes this add-on work.
its not for crouching, its for the ambush charge time. The luck offering is worded in terms of percentage being large compared to the base value even though the flat value is small, so why is this one not the same?
We already see a problem. Is it based on the base value like luck? In that case it should not be "slightly" but something much more. Is it based on the flat value? Well in that case luck offerings (the lips) should be "slightly".
There's no metric to go off of. It seems to be essentially whatever the person writing it decided it was.
FYI the Combat straps, which is the add-on that actually effects the crouch speed, reduces it by roughly 23%, and that also says slightly. So in just the terms "slightly" we have in just a few Pig Add-ons, anywhere from 20-50%, but throw in say, Myers "slightly" stalk duration which adds 10 seconds, now we have anywhere from ~15-50% just for "slightly". Throw in Legions ruler, which is 10% recovery speed, and now slightly is from 10-50%. But Legion "considerably" is only 15% on one of his add-ons.
Even in terms of time, Pigs "slightly" from the tape is 0.3 but the bag of gears is ~1.6, but Myers gets 10 seconds on his "slightly". Meanwhile legions "considerably" on his dirt is 0.6 seconds. But legions "moderately" for frenzy duration is also 15% or 1.5 seconds.
There's no consistency anywhere, percentage, raw, or even which is being used. Even within a single killer's or item's add-ons it's all over the place, let alone the entire game.
These are just the ones I happen to know as well, I'm sure if I looked through the game I'd find even more examples. The words are in practice meaningless for anyone who actually want's to know how much it impacts the character or decide if its worth it to use over something else or at all.
I could replace say, Legions cooldown add-ons (which would be his fatigue because inconsistent word choice) with the description: green "reduces cooldown" and the purple "reduces cooldown, but more than green" and it'd convey the same amount of info, which is to say, not much at all.
-
@Alionis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2181023#Comment_2181023
+3% is in fact tremendously with how the self-unhook mechanic and probability works. You've just proven the point @Orion was trying to make, you peeps don't understand the math.
There's no math term that defines what "tremendously" means, which is part of the problem. If it said "Tremendously increases in relation to the base chance of luck" or "tremendously increases if you attempt to escape multiple times" then that would be different, but it doesn't.
Yeah compared to the base value that's a lot, but you know what else can be called a lot? A flat 75%. You know what else can be called a little or "slightly"? A flat 3%. There's nothing pointing to either one by just saying "tremendously" and that's it. It'd be much clearer to everyone to just give the number.
Words like "slightly" are up to personal interpretation, while the raw number is not.
"Oh its +3% oh ok that's not worth it to me" or if you have the other line of thinking "oh its +3% when it starts a 4% that is worth it to me". Either way the conclusion is the same, it just saves you the unnecessary vagueness. People will have the same conclusion after they look it up anyway. The main point is my "slightly" might be different to your "slightly" or the particular dev that worked on that specific item/add-on "slightly", especially since there's no other context. Again, its very subjective.
Also by that route, why do some add-ons like Pigs video tape have "slightly" but its 50% and on that same exact add-on it says "slightly" for a different effect but its only 20%. Then, there's things like cold dirt that say "considerably" but its only 15%, lower than "slightly" on a different add-on. All compared to their initial values.
There's no consistency either. Its just poor design and unclear for no real reason.
-
Yeah the pigs "Video Tape" says "Slightly reduces Ambush Attack Charge time" but it's a whopping 50% reduction. That same add-on also has a second effect that says "Slightly decreases missed Ambush Attack cool-down" and it's only 20%.
Legions "Cold Dirt" says "Considerably reduces cool-down of Feral Frenzy" but it's only 15%.
There is no consistency and I wouldn't call 50% "slightly". Just give us the numbers ffs.
-
@thrawn3054 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2173194#Comment_2173194
What do you want them to do? They've slowly but steadily been nerfing survivors and buffing killers for years now. Yes, you could point to the small nerfs killers like Freddy have gotten, but the overall trend has very much been a buff. Mind you most of those changes were needed in my opinion, but honestly how much more do killers want?
Just because they've been nerfing survivors doesn't mean its balanced now. Putting power in terms of a number for an example: If survivor was a 50 and killer was a 10, and now survivor is 30 but killer is 15, you could say "well they've nerfed survivors and buffed killers what more do you want?". However, the game is still survivor favored.
Now whether you agree with that or not is up to you, but people just saying "well survivor has been nerfed, killer buffed" doesn't mean the situation is where it should be.
Warning, my opinions start here:
Is it better? yes. Is it good? Imo no, the game still favors survivors a lot from my experience playing both sides. Not always, but more often than not.
I've actually been playing exclusively survivor for a while now. Are the que times long af, yes. Will I wait rather than play killer, also yes (or I just play another game).
Why would I stress about killer things when I can just kick back, hold M1, loop decently and still do well because of gen speeds and general map/game design being in the survivors favor (usually). The biggest contributing factor to survivor losses in most of my lost games is not even the killer, its having a potato on my team.
The survivor team wins by default and needs to really screw up or have a weak link for most of the killer roster to stand a chance. Killers Like Nurse and Spirit are a different story, but most of the roster starts in a losing position and can't do too much without the survivors messing up first just to get the opportunity to potentially change it.
It's just not fun nor fair to play killer in these conditions to me, and apparently a lot of others. Hence long survivor ques because of the lack of killer players. It might be different for some regions/people but my lobbies are at least 10+ minuets usually.
-
If you don't like the power fake aspect you can just drop the pallet early just like you would against huntress or any other ranged killer. If they got for PoTD after that its pretty easy to move out the way unless they pull a hard read because of the delay and warning. You will get hit eventually as we are not robots. If they break the pallet just run to the next loop.
Don't let him get into a position where he can fake his power as best you can, remember it really doesn't have a ton of range. There are situations where there's not too much you can do if he's already close however.
Against a decent survivor team he still gets spanked like most of the roster because M1 speeds, but at least he's a little more fun to play if you go for the skill shots.
-
100% agree. This has been my stance for a very long time. The only way to "solve" it is to rework the death/hook system in one way or another so these strats aren't necessary/optimal anymore. Moving hooks from the individual to the team and reducing the overall amount needed could work for example.
But that's not happening.
It sucks, but its here to stay.
On the other points, I think we should amp up points for everyone. At the least I don't think survivors should be making less BP basically just for playing survivor.
Promoting other playstyles wouldn't hurt, but as long as the core problem is there anyone out just to win will still do these things. You'd just be rewarding those that play for fun more, which I'd approve of. If they're going to play in a weaker way just so people have a good time, at least make it worth their while.
-
@justbecause said:
When we speak of side I think most killers think 4k is balance in game they looking for well it aint I thinl game is doing just fine
That's not accurate. I can't find it because it was a few months ago, but when polled most killers said a 3k is a win with a 2k being a tie. It was right off the heels of a big streamer talking about it too so it got a lot of input as it was the hot topic at the time. I know 1 poll isn't everything but 3k won by a landslide (like 80-90% iirc), so I think its safe to use it as a general indicator. Killers who want 4k's are very much the minority.
The people pushing the "killers just want 4k's" narrative are just salty survivor mains looking for excuses, you shouldn't listen to them.
-
@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2123073#Comment_2123073
Even solo Q. If it's actual GOOD survivors with a lot of experience. It's survivor sided.
^^^ this.
-
@ilovedbd123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2142760#Comment_2142760
I'll refer to my other quote. If the two survivors keep backing off into the basement and aren't actively trying to escape (staying near) they are possibly (not definitely but this is how id see it as killer) trying to get one past and sacrifice the other. That means the killer is losing a kill he has earned due to them not wanting to come out. Its not his job to chase them down there. We don't know if he was body blocking, or just not taking a chance and letting them escape.
True if that's what happened. We can't know without more details. If he just refused to let them out that's a different story.
-
I thought they changed basement stair so the killer couldn't block people in anymore, did they change it back? Did something get reverted accidentally again?
Yeah that's holding the game hostage if they actually couldn't get out..
-
@Zixology said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2140772#Comment_2140772
You totally can. And I do it regularly.
If you want, here's a 3rd option... don't immediately go back to the hook if there are more than 2 people left. Chase the 3rd guy.
You have 3 counters to this and you still think it's a problem.
That only works in the open, not when they block a hallway, tight tile spot, doorway, or pallet drop location. "Going around" would mean going around the entire loop or structure, aka them making a ton of distance for free, if you can stay on them (you're not going around the whole asylum for example while staying on them). Also the second "solution" isn't really a solution because you're basically saying "let 2 survivors go for free and look around the rest of the map for another one".
-
@Irisora said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2137641#Comment_2137641
Yep but its nothing new. Im personally taking a break meanwhile, i think it's the wiser thing to do, after the disappointment i had with the trickster and now an exploit like this.. maybe its the thousands of hours i have but as the time pass i play less and less this game.
At this point i refuse to play with game breaking bugs it really drives me away from the game. They also didn't entirely fix pallets stuns either.. so i think behaviour is either working with tight schedules or in a crisis period.
I've been taking a break as well. Survivor doesn't appeal to me anymore with how easy and boring it is. Killers get treated unfairly as just survivor entertainment, second class citizens or whatever you want to call it.
So between boringly easy or frustrating because the game is designed against you, I just play something else.
Its nothing new, as you said. Hope you're enjoying your break, I know I am 🙂
-
@Trickstaaaaa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2137627#Comment_2137627
Maybe injured survivors could go at 95% speed maybe that would help, and incentives healing, so we could have another optional objective. Either we play slower or heal up. That could be a way they could add a new optional mission sort of.
A 5% penalty is barely anything. Additionally the problem isn't usually the injured survivor, its the other 3. In just your first chase, 3 gens will pop from the other healthy survivors, the one you're chasing isn't doing gens.
Unless you're going to make the penalty massive along with making healing take longer, I don't think this solution will do much unfortunately.
Remember in the current state of the game, the survivors can do 3/5 of their objective by the time the killer gates 1/12. Against just a decent survivor team most killers will get like, 3-4 hooks. The difference in speed is staggering when the survivors are just decent.
The only thing helping killers is the number of potatoes in the game because survivor isn't hard at all to be decent in, and that's all you need to make most killers unviable.
Their main objective takes no skill, meanwhile killers have to work for progress on theirs and the survivor objective goes way faster. There's no difference between an ok survivor and a good survivor on a gen, they all do it in the same amount of time.
-
The devs don't consider it an exploit according to their mods, so survivors have nothing to fear.
Unlike when killers were just using normal legion add-ons and got perma-banned for it because they were bugged, thats an exploit.
But not this, using a extremely rare perk thats almost never used, and pairing it with with anti-slug or just runing to the same side of the map every time to make sure you can abuse it, thats fine.
Using add-ons that were ran normally on a killer, nah thats an exploit.
@The_Krapper said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2137422#Comment_2137422
I mean yea of course you could compare the two but I think the devs don't want to ban people for their own mistakes anymore , I don't think its fair to use that perk at the moment but I also think that the devs do this stuff on purpose at this point lol
The devs don't even consider it an exploit, but when killers did the legion thing with it being much more likely they just didn't know, nah that was an exploit.
Its not "the devs don't want to ban people for their own mistakes anymore", its that they don't even consider it an exploit despite it being a much worse case because survivors are doing it.
The bias is clear to me.
-
Move the game away from being survivor favored most of the time.
As others have said the easiest way to start doing this would be to make gens take longer, decent survivors do their objective way too fast compared to killers.
There's technically other options but unless you want full chases to only last like 20-30 seconds max or hook states to go from 3 to 2 or something to make killer speeds closer to survivor objective speeds, there's not much else to do imo.
Its either speed up killers or make survivors take longer. The speed difference is the most contributing factor to why killer feels so much more stressful and why they are generally weaker in most cases. The main contributing factors the the speed difference are gen speeds and loop/map design being in the survivors favor in the majority of cases making chases too long for how fast gens get done. That's why the best killers are ones that can both end cases fast and get on top of gens fast.
-
Killer definitely
As survivor at leas the game is designed in my favored, as killer not only am I fighting the other side, I'm fighting the game design as well.
Constant uphill battle as killer from the beginning.
As survivor if we lose its probably my teammates fault, or its one of the members of the unholy killer square of Nurse, Spirit, Freddy, Hag.
Also in a similar vein, if you're interested this recent poll is along the same lines if you want to get more of a feel on the general outlook: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/244733/do-you-think-killers-or-survivors-are-more-overpowered
-
"No Technician (unless you can't hit skill checks ever)"
"When exposed, run in front of the killer and accept fate"
I know this is a joke thread but these two, wat 😂
-
Killers only move 10-15% faster than survivors, its not much at all, that's why holding W is so strong.
The reason why on maps like the lab versus the farm you catch them quicker is because its harder for them to see you and know where you are, so you get closer before they even start running (or they even run into you sometimes) and you can cut them off easier on the lab because again, they can't really see you.
On open maps not only do they see you coming much further away, but cutting them off might not even be an option.
-
"Necessary" is a bit much. It really depends on the survivor team if its even viable. But I'll put that in since taking out the option to camp in the current game environment would most likely be a disaster.
When I think "necessary" I think: it's necessary to tunnel sometimes because you need people out the game and tunneling is the fastest way. Camping is more like a bait tactic to get people to come to you and waste time and it only works against certain teams.
So I can't say its just flat out necessary when it just doesn't work at all against certain survivor teams and can actually hinder you a lot.
A better question would be "Is camping viable" and on that front the answer is "it depends on the survivor team".
-
I actually think its survivor favored Unless you get to the door situation, as mentioned they're right next to each other essentially. But that's only endgame and a small fraction of the match. Most killers have it very rough on the map.
But the map is beyond redemption and needs an entire rework imo. If we could rework the map but keep the visuals that would be ideal.
-
My top (bottom?) 5:
- Spirit - Its spirit I don't think I have to explain this one.
- Freddy - Sleep timer or sleep on hit, not both. The timer is also too short for having to go across the entire map to wake up. If you use a teammate it gets slower every time. There's no "good" option to take against him. Oh and his braindead gameplay that just wins loops.
- Hag - CashelP14 explained it well above
- Myers - No TR (essentially) one shots from my teammates feeding him is just really unfun. Not to mention the only "counter" to his stalk is essentially hope map RNG liked you. Extended lunge and vault in chase while he can one-shot you is just salt on the wound. Exposing the whole survivor team for 1 hook state worth of time at base is just too long, it brings the game to a crawl if you don't want him to potentially snowball into a quick 3-4k. Some of his add-ons are too much. Here your exposed now last a hook state and a half, or how about forever, for one add-on. How about you can just straight out kill a survivor, also one add-on. Oh it has a downside? Don't worry we have other strong add-ons to counter that.
- Hillbilly - Did map RNG give you a good setup, ok you're fine. It gave you a long wall or easy feather setup? Ok get one-shot. Not to mention he's all over the map. You got unhooked? He's there. You're on a gen? He's there now. Overall annoying map presence.
-
@lagosta said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2092088#Comment_2092088
The issue with tunnelling is how it's actively rewarded by the current Devotion emblem system. Kill/Sacrifice/DC award 2 points no matter how you gained it. A killer that manages to get 8 hooks 0 kills performs worse than one that got 1 hook 1 kill by face camping. No wonder how they get to higher ranks by camping and tunnelling. To counter those, survivors need to coordinate repair/escape and protection hits/rescues respectively.
DS high usage is a symptom, not the cause. People use DS bc killers camp and tunnel and killers use those tactics bc they are effective and rewarded. If the Devotion system awarded partial points for hooks instead of Kill/Sacrifice/DC with bonus for interchanging survivors, suddenly killers that camp/tunnel do not perform as well and/or rise on ranks.
That's assuming the emblem system is the win condition. For most people who play the game a 3-4k is a win so that's the metric I'm going off until the devs say otherwise. But even in that regard tunneling is the best path.
Reworking the emblem system won't do much because most of people just don't care about emblems, they care about the kills/escapes. Right now with no official win condition, the majority win condition is a 3-4k. Just making devout give you partial points wont really do much.
You need to make getting a 3-4k viable without tunneling if you want to view tunneling as an issue, which the devs don't. I don't really see it as an issue either for that matter. If I get tunneled I just move on to the next match because I understand that's the game. The killer isn't being mean, its not toxic, its not unfair, its jut the way the game is and they're just trying to win.
Would I like it more if tunneling wasn't needed? Yes absolutely since I usually don't tunnel when I play killer because I just don't have fun doing it. I would love it if the game got catered to that style, but its not. But that's my choice to usually play sub-optimally. I would love the game to be reworked into that direction, but I really don't think that's happening. As the game is, I can't reasonably get upset for either side tunneling.
What I do have a problem with is the speed discrepancy compared to how long the killer objective takes. 1 chase for 3 gens at the beginning of the match is absurd. The survivors have done 3/5 of their objective while the killer has done 1/12. I bring this up because DS just compounds the issue by giving massive amounts of time. The reason killers try to avoid DS like the plague is because 1 DS could lose you the game, let alone multiple, when you are already playing from a losing position.
DS isn't the cause but the symptom of what? I didn't say it was the cause of anything outside of bad survivor habits and you didn't mention that, so I'm not 100% on what you're trying to say its not the cause of. If you mean tunneling then yeah, you could say it happened as a response to tunneling. Even though the devs are fine with tunneling and it's an intended thing. Although, I don't know where the idea of DS causing tunneling came from though if that's the case.
I just think DS should never have existed until they fixed the core game design of killers needing to tunnel in the first place because now you have an impossible situation where DS is there to help against tunneling but tunneling is what the killer needs to do. Thats why its been a problem perk since its creation as anti-tunnel.
It'd be like having a killer perk that blocks a gen after you get it to 30% for 60 seconds because you tunneled the gen. Its a badly designed perk that is counterintuitive to the already established core game design. Tunneling gens and tunneling kills is what's going to happens long as the core design is what it is.
Survivors are supposed to tunnel down gens, killers are supposed to tunnel down kills. Getting upset at either side for doing these things is getting upset that they're trying to win. The real problem is the core game design. No perk will ever cover up these issues without screwing the other side, it's too integral to progressing their objective.
-
@lagosta said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2091939#Comment_2091939
DS is not the only perk that is associated with the Obsession status, it is by far the most popular bc of the rampart issue with camping and tunnelling as well as the opportunities of abuse that it offered to survivors. That last part was addressed in the update, but the perk is effectively locked behind a paywall since the end of 2019. It was in the shrine ONCE. The casual players being camped and tunnelled in SQ that can't coordinate bc even chat is not available or afford DLC with real money are the ones in the being abused.
There is also the other side of this shitshow. Have you ever considered what killers that have BIS obsession perks like Doc, Demo, Slinger have to give up just to use STBFL? Do these killers need to be dragged down the mud bc they need those perks and cannot have obsession free matches?
On both sides there are people pigeonholed into Obsession perks that are too strong and other that benefit former's need.
Yeah I agree DLC perks are dumb but thats a selling point for the DLC unfortunately. I would like the shrine to just have every perk available for shards at all times.
I wouldn't say they're being "abused"; tunneling is known about, allowed, and intended. Just because survivors don't like it doesn't mean its "abused". As for perks, previous point. I'd be for helping solo and buffing killers to compete, but killers would have to be buffed. As is now, even a solo team can make most killers obsolete if they're all decent. The only thing keeping killers that aren't Nurse, Spirit, Hag, or Freddy somewhat playable is that there are a lot of potatoes even at "high rank". Thats why this "weak link" mentality is pushed on killers. But if there's no weak link, killers often just lose.
If an obsession is such a big downside just because of DS merely existing, then DS is the issue, not the obsession mechanic. Honestly DS was a mistake to ever add to the game imo. Tunneling is unfun but necessary for killers to stand a chance against any competent team. I'd rather they address that issue and make killers not need to tunnel to do well, then the killers you mentioned would be fine in this regard. But that's not happening.
The solution is not "ok now everyone has to deal with DS BS", if anything that'd make the situation worse. Making all killers have to deal with DS will just make all the killers "dragged through the mud".
Honestly that second paragraph showed more of why assuming DS shouldn't become the norm again.
DS is unhealthy for the killer side of the game for anyone trying to win. I could argue its unhealthy for the survivor side as well since it taught horrible habits like pulling off right in front of the killer. Now that its not abusable anymore, those horrible habits stuck around and survivors are getting punished like they should have from the beginning, and now those survivors are complaining because the way they played the game for the past few years needs to change because of one perk. Because that perk was abused and way too strong for way too long and its trying to address an issue with the core design of the game instead of reworking the design.
Tunneling is necessary because of the current hook/death system and gen speeds, and without those being reworked it'll most likely stay that way.
-
@lagosta said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2088819#Comment_2088819
DS is so influential that the sole absence of an obsession status changes a killer playstyle. I don't want to run obsession perks every time just to make sure a killer thinks twice about tunneling.
The best 2 options for the community are either always spawning an obsession despite the existence of obsession perks (which would benefit killer and survivor with the score events associated to the status) or making DS not spawn one in the beginning of the match.
Essentially, "I want to benefit from the perk, but I don't want to run the perk"
Then why should you benefit from the perk? Especially such a strong one. You already benefit if someone else runs it, now we want no one to run it but it still benefit from it just existing?
I disagree, I don't think those options are good for the community/game, especially when we already have a lack of killers.
-
WARNING: long post since I'm trying to break this down even more. Read at your own risk.
- "It will force survivors to cleanse all totems if they don't want to get hit by it, giving you ample time."
I already addressed that, you can just break one totem at the end. You can choose to break all 5 but its not necessary.
- "This is probably why you think NOED is a weak perk because you don't see how much time it wastes for the opposing side"
Just comparing time out of both perks, the DS stun alone will gain as much time as 1 totem (5 x 3 survivors on gens, 15). So if you can run the killer for 20 seconds after (easy if you're not a potato) you just gave your team the same amount of time as it takes to break all 5 totems, makes that like ~30 if you factor in the time to check the spots (totem spots are easy on most maps). Once again, you don't need to even do that, you can just break one at the end. DS can save you easily over 40 seconds, and that's for 1 DS, let alone multiple.
I know how much time it takes up, its not much. You're really overestimating its value. NoED is not strong, its just annoying, that's why most killers don't run it once they know better. DS was the meta perk, NoED is not even meta because its not strong. DS was in every game, NoED was in less than half (in my experience).
Afaik the only people who call NoED strong are biased survivors or inexperience/low skill players, most players agree its just ok or a little on the weaker side from what I've seen. My opinion is its just ok, but annoying.
It won't win you a game you would have otherwise lost usually, DS will.
- "Strong endgame potential if survivors don't cleanse all totems, allowing you to potentially bring the game into your favor."
Strong endgame if the survivors can't cleanse one totem during endgame, and that's if they want to stick around for the save. Strong endgame isn't viable since you throw the entire match to get if if that's what you build for and its such a short duration usually. Will work against a bad team or survivors who overstay their welcome, but that's about it.
The only time I can think of it being an issue is with killers who are already a problem like Nurse or Spirit because they are notorious good users of exposed. But they would win without the perk easily.
- "They both encourage fun games and are really powerful (killers can't tunnel, survivors can't rush generators)"
Survivors can rush generators because NoED doesn't stop them. It'll punish them in the end maybe but at that point the games over. DS gives the survivor an entire extra hook state in the middle of the game and will lose the killer multiple gens.
Again, no one doesn't not rush gens because of NoED. People did not tunnel because of DS. As someone who plays both sides, NoED is not really a factor most of the time. My team rushes gens, I do totems if I see them (usually the only one doing them) or I just rush gens as well and break the 1 totem at the end.
If I have NoED equipped (which I haven't in like a year now lol) it didn't usually do much of anything except get me maybe 1 down because it broke instantly after or the survivors left. There are much better perks to run.
I never though "Hmm, we shouldn't do gens because what if NoED". No one does that. At most I'll check to see if the chased survivor is injured already for the last gen pop. If we want to "encourage" anti-gen rush the perk needs to do much more, but because the perk feels so bad to go against, I don't see that happening.
NoED doesn't help with the gen-rush it just might give you a pity down.
Once you get good at the game, NoED is a small threat. Annoying, yes, but not really a threat. The perk is basically "play the whole game down 1 perk to get 1 down at the end maybe". By the time NoED comes into play the game is over.
- "The fact you believe killers should be allowed to know whether or not survivors are using DS (based on the obsession mechanic) is a double standard when you know survivors have no clue if the killer is using NOED. Both perks should be undetectable."
You know what's a double standard? How survivors get a big notification for a ton of perks the killer is running while the killer gets notified of none. At most they get a hint, and that's only if they themselves aren't running an obsession perk. Imo, all perks should be undetectable as well as all status effects. Figure it out why you got this or that. I'd be on board with that change.
Make all hexes undetectable, make all exposed undetectable (outside of powers like Myers or GF), make all statuses undetectable. Killers have to put together what perks survivors are running all the time, meanwhile survivors get it told to them on a loud speaker. NoED is the exception rather than the rule, and it still tells them once someone gets whacked with it.
Alternatively, we could even the playing field and also give killers a ton of info on which perks the survivors are running with visible timers. I'd also be on board with that. It needs to be evened out one way or the other.
Ah, but no, we just want DS to not even give a hint that its in play anymore.
-
@NMCKE said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2088819#Comment_2088819
Why can't DS be undetectable like NOED?
Both perks encourage fun games:
- DS: Punishes Tunneling
- NOED: Punishes Fast Games
I don't understand your thought process, allowing DS to be detectable will allow killers to know what games they can and can't tunnel. That's like making NOED light up all totems if it's being used, so that survivors can know what games they can or can't genrush.
Any perk that encourage fun games should be undetectable, period.
This thread isn't about NoED but ok I'll respond.
Their level in power is very different and just saying "well they both punish something" is oversimplifying a lot. Not knowing if there's NoED when it only effects the last minuet of the match is different from not having a clue about DS that effects the entire match overall.
NoED takes place after the gens have been rushed and its also not a strong perk, its just super annoying and can maybe get the killer 1 hook/kill (more only if the survivors allow it). It also only takes effect during the (usually very short) endgame, you don't play the whole match around it to nearly the same degree as DS. I don't consider NoED good enough at being something that encourages survivors not to gen rush, since they still do it anyway and then can just pop the 1 totem. You don't need to do 5 totems, just 1 at the end if you really want.
DS interrupts the tunneling before its over to give you a massive benefit and can lose the killer multiple gens, if not the entire match. Same as before since the stun wasn't touched.
You don't get the "fear" of NoED even if you don't have the perk because NoED isn't that good. Survivors don't just stop completing genes to do totems just to stop a potential NoED. Just having an obsession will make killers reconsider tunneling anyone whether they have DS or not and change their entire gameplay for the entire match.
NoED doesn't stop survivors from gen rushing just because its a threat, DS can (and often does) make a killer not tunnel just from the threat of it. Because DS can easily wins games, NoED usually doesn't against a competent team.
TL;DR NoED and DS are on completely different power levels and don't really compare when it comes to affecting the overall game. Just run DS if you wanna benefit from deterring the killer from their optimal strategy.
Stop being so entitled that you want the benefit of a game changing perk without equipping the perk in 1 of your teams 16 perk slots, or any of the other obsession perks.
-
Just run an obsession perk.
I heard of this one that helps with tunneling and camping, it's called "Decisive Strike".
-
Easier doesn't mean easy, as others have said. Killer is still the worse of the 2 groups usually unless you're playing Nurse, Spirit, Hag, and Freddy.
Is it better? Yeah? Is it good? imo no.
Survivor has had long que times since I started the game, I doubt that's gonna change anytime soon with the way balance is going where Trickster was deemed fine for release and we get maps like "The Game" that was supposed to be an improvement.
-
Simplified list, just my opinion.
Edit: Not ordered within tiers js.
-
@bobbybrownlove said:
Anyone else have the issue?
Same issue here, charms not showing up on any of my hooks.
-
@WiiFitTrainer said:
I've seen maybe like 5 in the past 3 days, playing probably 15 or so games a day.
For some reason I've been getting A LOT of huntresses, about half of which had iri head. Good times.
They're tired of using trickster and being helpless so they went to the other extreme.
-
Before:
Killer: "I got DS'd and I didn't tunnel."
Survivors: "No you must have if you got hit with DS, don't tunnel and no problem."
Now:
Survivor: "I got tunneled"
Killer: "Run DS then, it still hits them if they tunnel and it's still strong."
Survivor: "No, it got nerfed didn't you hear, it must be useless now. DS never helped with tunneling anyway."
I don't understand. I guess they really wanted to keep that DS abuse going? DS is still strong if they tunnel and still acts as a tunnel deterrent. But none of that matters if no one is using it.
-
"why even slot it?"
To help against tunneling.
If you don't care about being tunneled then don't run it.
Just don't not run it and complain about tunneling.
-
@sad_killer_main said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2079222#Comment_2079222
That's the thing, People think that people now tunnel more since the DS nerf but that's not quite true.
Tunneling has increased since now nobody uses the perk.
If people kept using it, people would still refrain from tunneling.
This so much.
"Oh killers are tunneling so much now."
"Ok run DS so they don't, just like before. It still hits tunnelers"
"No, it got nerfed so it must be bad now."
Essentially what's happening. I just find it funny that before the nerf "oh I got DS'd" was met with "don't tunnel", now it's "it never helped with tunneling." It seems to just be a loud minority complaining thankfully.
-
I've played this game for almost 3 years, this has never happened to me once lol.
-
I picked this because I guess its the closest to completely changing the map as much as possible while keeping its theme.
Haddonfield has a lot of problems. I was on it yesterday playing survivor against a Doc, and I had the window at the top of the basement (killer has to vault it), straight shot into a long fence with a window in the middle, that was 2 steps from a window into the house of pain, and the god window was open on the other side of the house. Then you can just run the whole thing in reverse and then do it again.
There was no way the killer was ever going to catch me, and that was just one part of the map.
The house of pain just needs to be removed from all maps imho and replaced with something else.
The gens also take too long for the killer to patrol/get to with how big the map is and some of the gens being behind the houses or upstairs. If you get a gen on a balcony or near the stairs you also have great LOS to see of the killer is coming your way or otherwise preoccupied.
We all know how dumb balanced landing is on the map.
If it wasn't for the fact its a licensed map, I would say just remove it until you make a new one. It needs to be completely remade imo.
-
@Dragonshensi said:
I think it’s going to go back to how it was. The outcry from survivor mains has been legendary. They will fear for their wallets and reverse I bet. Survivors bring the money. Killers are just the unpaid employees giving the survivors a good ol time.
If this poll is anything to go by, it really is just a vocal minority.
so I would hope not.
-
@glitchboi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2074385#Comment_2074385
Jeez he actually said that? Ouch.
I still like him but I feel like it was unnecessary of him to say that. People are allowed to state their opinions on the game's state and still like playing the game. He really didn't have to say that :/
Reading that back it might sound a little worse than it really was. Its different explaining something and actually being there.
Its best if you see it yourself and judge, I don't want my impression/understanding to unjustly effect how you see him or anything.
If you want to hear the moment in question its in his stream titled "New Handsome Boy Killer dude is out" and the time it starts is about 53:30 and ends around 56:00. (link at the bottom)
In that same clip he brought up things like insta-heals and Mori's getting changed when someone expressed they feel like devs don't listen, and when someone else said "those things took years though" his attitude/response was "yeah I didn't say it didn't. So? They changed it eventually that's all that matters."
I just feel like he boils a lot of things down to dev bashing when people are just upset (rightfully so in a lot of cases imo) or he just gives out too many excuses for things that happen.
He just doesn't have an outlook I can get on board with personally when it comes to feedback and what quality we should expect as players. I don't think years for glaring balance issues to be addressed should be the norm or acceptable. Its literally their jobs to improve/work on the game.
But I can still enjoy him for his other content and such.
-
@glitchboi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2074327#Comment_2074327
Meh, I don't blame Otz. He probably wants to keep his Fog Whisperer status, which is understandable.
Yeah I can understand that as he worked to get it to begin with. But I was watching his trickster stream and he essentially said (paraphrasing here) "If you guys are complaining about the devs decisions why are you playing their game, go play something else."
I just don't agree with his attitude towards feedback when that's his response. People who care about the game just want it to be better. I enjoy him as a player and content creator, just not his attitude when it comes to stuff like that. Really confuses me as he himself gives criticism sometimes (or rarely depending on your view), but then talks down to others when they give theirs for even saying anything. But everyone has their flaws. Overall he's seems like an ok guy.
Again, not attacking him or anything, just expressing my views.