MrPenguin
MrPenguin
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Just pointing out Ruin doesn't triple regression, it doubles it. It's "at 200%" not "an additional 200%" or in other words, it's +100% not +200%. Which is still only 1/2 of 1 survivor in terms of time when there's 4 of them.
But yes base regression is a complete joke along with gen tapping. It should at least take as long as the killer takes to kick it to stop the regression.
Base regression is only ~8% of what 3 survivors can put out (since you will hopefully be occupying one of them) if no one stops the gen regression. So even with ruin you're just doing ~16% compared to the time their making if no one stops the regression the entire time.
They can do 3 gens from 0 to 100 and you'll only regress 25% of 1 gen or 50% with ruin.
If I mathed correctly at least. In case your wondering about 4 survivors on gens it'd be 6% and 12% instead.
Ruin's saving grace is that you don't have to kick the gen yourself.
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I just think that at least current ruin helps against people who can hit greats while before it didn't. It was basically a dead perk if they could. New ruin also isn't based on how many skill checks they got for how effective it is, and less RNG is the direction I like more.
the core problem is the gen speeds though, anything else that isn't fixing those in some way at base is just a band-aid.
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Right now its Scott. Otz is second but he white knights the devs a bit too much for my liking personally to be on top. No shade or anything, wish him the best, I just disagree with his takes sometimes (which is fine).
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I haven't tunneled before and I haven't started now, but wanting to benefit from the threat of a perk against the opposing sides most optimal strat even though the perk is not even present is very entitled imo. I'd rather rework the hook/death system to something that doesn't ask you to tunnel to do well against a competent team.
Since that's not happening afaik the least you could do is sacrifice 1 perk slot to threaten the other side's optimal strategy.
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@BubbaDredge said:
Survivors have dozens of ways to tell what perks the killer is running, but God forbid a killer gets some info.
If you want the benefit of DS, run DS. All this crying has made me tunnel way more. Used to be I avoided it, but survivors deserve it.
This. The game literally straight up tells you "hey btw they got ruin, hey btw they got MYC, hey btw they have lullaby, hey btw they got NoED, hey btw that was Devour Hope". It requires no thought on the survivor end at all (not that it would take much, but even that is beyond my average teammate who unhooks me with no obsession and no BT right in front of the killer).
Were it up to me I would remove every perk notification on both sides, including the might as well be neon flashing "EXPOSED" sign debuff and screen effect. They got 1 hit downed, pay attention and figure out why.
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I'm not personally opposed to this change since I don't tunnel and it doesn't sound too strong imo.
You just have to be careful when addressing tunneling because that's what the killer role is supposed to do if they want to win unfortunately. If you play killer for fun usually (like me) it doesn't matter really, but playing to win is a different story. You're directly affecting their win conditions optimal strategy.
If DS is too strong it turns into "well if I tunnel, I they get too much free time and I probably lose, but if I don't they get too much free time and I still probably lose". You have to keep in mind DS is not just a 5 second stun, its a 5 second stun + heal + whatever time you make after the stun looping and ect. as well as freeing up that time for your entire team. So the stun alone gives your team 20 seconds cumulatively, 15 of which is probably gen time, and any time after that is also more time everyone on your team is benefiting from.
Against a competent team killers don't have the time to 12 hook with current gen times and map/game design unfortunately. Thankfully (I guess?), with matchmaking and ranks being what they are, a lot of teams aren't competent.
A proper solution to tunneling would probably require a rework of the entire hook/death system and the killers objective, which I don't see happening sadly.
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Full power DS but not full powered Ruin? When ruin already only regresses at 1/2 the speed of one survivor working on a gen and only if they get off of it.
I'd rather not.
Opinion disclaimer for the next two paragraphs.
DS doesn't need to be built in, survivors just need to stop playing like they were when DS was making extremely unsafe plays advantageous because I still have teammates pull me off right in front of the killer within 4 seconds of me being hooked with no obsession and half the time no BT. Those bad habits need to go yesterday. Your teammates get you tunneled way too often in my experience, but then they blame the killer just because the killer capitalized on their potato play. Just do safe unhooks.
Base ruin won't help with the 1 hook = 3 gens problem either since you can just sit on the gen until its done if its anywhere past 50-60% before you go for the save in most cases, and that's what happens. A done gen doesn't regress, ruin did nothing to help in that situation, gen rush still happened. Gens just need to take longer in general if you want to address gen times or the killer objective needs to be sped up to comparable times. I'd rather the latter since skilless holding M1 is no fun for anyone, the former only if it adds some new mechanic into the game. Ruin base would just make killers who can already pressure stronger while the ones who need the help more because they can't, barely get any benefit in a game where the survivors are decent. A Spirit/Nurse with base Ruin? Yeah that'll help. A Clown/Wraith with base ruin? Well the gens done or close to it before they finish chasing anyone so meh.
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"these approaches would probably get prohibited by the rules."
Why? They're fair tactics, why would they be prohibited? Its not an exploit or anything.
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Not unless gen progress randomly jumps to another gen if you're on it for more than 5 seconds (obviously bad idea). Yeah camping sucks. But its part of the game and just a tactic to get the objective done by trying to make survivors come to you.
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@Nicotinhaltig said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068308#Comment_2068308
A situation I just had: Was hooked beside a generator that was regressing. My teammate rescues me. The killer is really close, but I go ahead and tap the generator before immediately running away. The killer (obviously tunneling) catches me 5 seconds later, but DS is gone because I touched the generator for like 1 second. I do think DS needed some kind of rework. But the current state its in is just kinda frustrating.
You chose to lose DS by stopping a gen regress, next time don't touch the gen. The other survivor could touch the gen. That's on you for making a bad play, not the perk.
It's not supposed to be a free pass to touch a gen.
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yes it was needed.
"Now more killers will enjoy tunneling"
DS still hits tunnelers. If survivors stop running it that's on them.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2069277#Comment_2069277
Doesnt mean things cant be done to make solo q more enjoyable.
Sure but idk what that has to do with bad teammates. A bad teammate is a bad teammate. You can't make them not bad. Like I said before there is no solution for bad teammates outside of picking them yourself in a SWF.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2069200#Comment_2069200
The issue isn't climbing, I'm rank 1. The issue is game enjoyment. Why should I lose, not because of my skill, but because other people are bad?
Because its a team based game. Your teammates matter. You benefit from a good teammate you suffer for a bad one. That's how team based games work.
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@Pig_Is_Pog said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2067499#Comment_2067499
no because i don’t use ds, i haven’t for months. Killers would still respect it as if i did though so generally they wouldn’t tunnel but now killers don’t fear it so they just tunnel like there’s no tomorrow.
"I don't use DS, but I want to benefit from it."
Then run DS.
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@Northener1907 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2067898#Comment_2067898
No i dont think so. If devs giving you advantage for easy games ofc people will use this. Now Gold Age for Tunnelling.
DS: still hits tunnelers with the same stun as before.
This guy: "Golden age for tunneling."
wat.
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@IMhereRUN said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2064618#Comment_2064618
At start, it wasnt an anti-tunnel perk, which is why you never had to even be hooked to use it. It was designed to be an absolute free 2nd chance crutch.
Only as of this update, has it ever been intended to strictly be an anti-tunnel perk. But for anti-tunneling, it’s the best perk in the game still.
People’s real problem with it, is NOW that’s ALL the perk does.
its been intended as anti-tunnel/farm since the beginning of 2019, not "only as of this update"
"serves the purpose to protect you from being tunneled/ farmed" - devs, February 2019
source: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/48381/design-decisive-strike
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There is no solution for random bad teammates or people who will play how they want. There's people who wont heal even if you're right next to them injured outside the TR and they don't have DS or anything. There's people who will self care right in front of you trying to heal them. That's just the way it is and without taking over their controls you cant really do much about it.
The only solution, if you want to call it that, is to find some people who cater to your playstyle and form a SWF with them.
In your case of "I want to be healed" the game gives you multiple options to do so. I even suggested to replace bond since as a fellow solo que player, I know its not necessary at all. But you essentially want a 5th perk slot and 2nd item slot at this point.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068934#Comment_2068934
Damn, didn't know I was pointing a gun at people forcing them to play how I want, it's not like a made a thread giving my opinion and you can still do what you want.
Some people really love to use the word "force" without knowing what it means.
as someone else pointed out, you said:
"Yes, and how that is going to make people with DS heal me in solo Q? "
"How is that going to make people heal me"
You've gotten answers and solutions and don't like them because you yourself have to do something, but you want everyone else to cater to you. You're not interested in solutions you want everyone else to solve the problem for you.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068907#Comment_2068907
The worse scenario exists.
Why should we assume people used to abuse DS? Some didn't, why assume the worst scenario?
Because it exists, and it's just as valid.
If you struggle in SWF well you just need to get better I suppose.
Because a competent solo can still do very well just like they can do very bad just like a SWF can do bad. If you don't want to deal with it go get a SWF group or solve the issue with your loadout, stop trying to force others to play the way you want just because "muh perk slot"
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068892#Comment_2068892
Solo can be helpless. Have you tried having a match at night when you're a rank 1 and only get rank 15-20 team mates? tell me how that is winnable again.
well SWF can also be helpless, I don't think we should be assuming the worse case scenario just to fit your argument
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2068661#Comment_2068661
Because as someone who plays solo Q, I already have 2 perk slots with perks that are already mandatory for solo Q like Kindred and Bond.
Should we all just play SWF so we're able to use other builds without needing to care about all these conditions that solo Q falls behind?
You saying players wont cater to me, means 0. Discussions happen so things can be changed and balanced. I know a lot of people on this forum forget that solo Q exist and thinks everyone is a sweaty 4 men SWF, but that is far from reality.
Like survivors didnt need to cater to killers by not abusing DS, but they did and it got nerfed.
Discussions happen so things can change, not so people can shrug it off and say "it happens"
I play solo, bond isn't mandatory. Kindred yeah I can see that one. Just replace bond. I just bring a medkit. Yeah SWF has an advantage, but solo isn't helpless lol.
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yeah when "slightly" can mean anywhere from 5-50% or more, I think its just better we know the amount. I really don't see the point of using the "slightly, moderately" system besides to just obscure information for some reason.
Just give us the numbers ffs.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2066504#Comment_2066504
I understand that my "tapping" argument is different from OP's but if you understand that, then you would also understand that tapping a gen for 1 second, while it was sitting at 0% (meaning not one soul worked on it) isn't considered in any way shape or form progression. That is absurd.
You may want to look at it from the pre-requisite lense of what "deactivates" DS, but facts are facts, I am pretty sure the team would have escaped without that survivor's 1 second touch on that gen.
If the gen was at 40% (sure) if the gen was at 50% (most definitely) people on here think 0% is actually progressing the objective. Which I just have to laugh at.
You tap a gen at 0, then another survivor works on it, then the killer comes back for a pop proc or just to regress it, that 1% you did lets them pop the gen before you down them. That progress still matters.
Facts are facts, 1% progression is still progression. Whether they escaped or not doesn't matter. That 1 second could be an adrenaline proc, that 1 second is still progress, that "tap" is still progress.
What's absurd is when you choose to lose your DS and then you complain that you lost it. Just don't touch the gen. What's absurd is trying to say "its not considered progression" when it is literally progression.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2066411#Comment_2066411
Sorry but touching a gen for 1 second does not progress the objective to warrant a deactivation of DS. If the survivor is oblivious to what the killer's real intentions are, you really think they are going to know that? No.
I am not saying that at that point the survivor will have to find other means, but I am also pointing out that, in this instance that IS tunneling. The killer specifically went to hunt that survivor down. Thus this is an action that is no longer punishable via the perk. The perk already has problems enough that it isn't a true anti-tunnel perk. For one, it should work on both hooks. Unless of course you think the killer can only tunnel off of hook #1.
On the last part I never said you said that. I am simply pointing out that tunneling isn't black and white as many seem to think. There is different context in each situation.
1 second not being enough is you opinion and is different from your previous point of it not being progress at all. The survivor doesn't need to know the killers intentions to have DS up. If you, the survivor, want DS up then don't do anything to deactivate it. Otherwise its your fault for giving up your perk because you were greedy. Again, you want 30 seconds of safety don't do anything for 30 seconds. You don't need to know the killers intentions, its your decision. The devs give you 60 seconds with an option to opt out, you took the option, next time don't if it bothers you.
The conversation/thread isn't whether you can tunnel off more than the first hook or DS being anti-tunnel or not, its about touching a gen and DS turning off because touching a gen is progress. If you want that convo open another thread. For the record, my opinion is sure let it work on both hooks in its current form.
But progress is progress and as soon as you make any progress you should be fair game. Small or not, it was your decision, not the killers, so you have no one to blame but yourself for your DS being gone in this situation. That small progress could be the difference between the gen being done or it getting hit with Pop. 1 second can/does matter.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2066275#Comment_2066275
Intentions are only important because in the event the killer wants to track a survivor after they were unhooked, it doesn’t matter if the survivor thought their unhook would have a different outcome and the killer might have gone for someone else. The killer can still tunnel because that is what their intention was. Hence why the timer is so long on DS, unless you think it’s just a random number the devs chose? My issue isn’t with the survivor progressing the game, my issue is that merely touching it is being considered “progression” which it isn’t. As I’ve said before 0% gen isn’t creating progression for the survivor objective. Even if that is what they intended on doing.
Tunneling isn’t just waiting for someone to get unhooked to start heading back. There are other scenarios in which I have seen where the killer ignores other survivors because they are looking for that survivor that just got unhooked. That is tunneling, regardless of where you think a survivor might be on an “objective”.
It is progress though. Even jut touching a gen progresses that gen. It might be a tiny amount but it does. Again, if you're worried about it don't touch the gen. You got 60 seconds, use them to help with tunneling or don't. Its not the perks fault you decided you didn't need it and then got whacked for it. If you decide "well tunneling is within 20 seconds" then don't touch a gen within 20 seconds. Easy.
Also either both intentions matter or neither does, stop holding double standards.
It doesn't matter if the killer thought the survivor would keep running because they were tunneled and the interaction would have a different outcome. The survivor can still make progress because that's what their intention was.
"Tunneling isn’t just waiting for someone to get unhooked to start heading back."
I never said it was. Don't know why you're bringing this up to me.
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As GF player, I'm tired of dealing with the weaker killer side and just have been playing survivor lately. I only jump on killer to do rift challenges and even then I'll pick a killer stronger than GF usually since he's on the weaker side.
I have not seen him in a while on the survivor side as well.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2065292#Comment_2065292
And I stand by what I said. Only difference is that unlike you, I understand that if a killer has every intention of TUNNELING, even if the survivor has began to ‘tap’ a gen, the intention is there and therefore it is guess what? Still tunneling.
So if DS is suppose to punish tunneling, then the timer should not deactivate. Unless the survivor has made progress on their objective, which is what has been pivoted as the only pre-requisite for it to work. Hiding and getting to a safe spot does not count as “progression”.
“Go ahead and tunnel” actually it’s more of a joke, but I can see that aside from not sharing the same views we don’t share the same humor. So I’ll leave you with this. You do you and I’ll keep doing me. Cuz at the end of the day we both know that this isn’t the end to this discussion. Tunneling is still being abused till this day, even with DS. So I’ll go ahead and have a conversation with non-biased players who understand both sides. Thanks
I mean you worked on the gen, that is progression. It might only be .5%, but that's progression. If you tap a regressing gen to stop regression, you're still contributing to the team by stopping the regression. Also "hiding and getting to a safe spot" is not the same as "getting to a gen and working on it". Since intentions seem to be so important to you, the survivor intended to make progress, therefore DS should deactivate because in your own logic: therefore it is guess what? Still Progress.
DS is meant to help against tunnelers and farmers, but if you make a mistake as a player that's not on the perk that's on you. If you're so worried about it just don't touch a gen for 60 seconds to protect your DS or until you're sure the killer is off you. 10 seconds not long enough? Ok wait 30 then. When you feel like "ok I'm not tunneled anymore" then work on the gen. Its your decision, you decide whats more important: DS in case of tunnel or progress. They feel like they might be tunneled let them sit around with their DS blanket.
Tunneling can't be "abused" when its something allowed and intended by the devs. Unless some unintended interactions come from tunneling, like it did with old DS, then its not being abused. I don't even tunnel as killer and I understand that. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean its being abused.
BTW I play both sides and have actually been playing more survivor lately before I get accused of being a KilLeR mAiN. I haven't run DS in months and if I get tunneled oh well, should have brought DS. Tbf tunneling doesn't really bother me since I have the knowledge of both sides to realize sometimes that its often, if not always, the best thing to do if you want to win. Tunnel kills and tunnel gens.
I sure as hell tunnel gens when I'm playing survivor, I choose not to tunnel when I play killer because I choose fun over optimal play. I don't expect others to do the same just because I would like them too.
If I wanted to be 100% fair I would tunnel on both sides or not on both sides. Ideally both sides would spread out their objective time. But from my experience, survivors only want killers to spread out their objective while they slam gens and are quite hypocritical. Since both sides can't agree, everyone just does what they want.
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Just bring DS if you're worried about it. If tunneling goes up DS goes up. If tunneling goes up and you don't bring DS that's on you.
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He's frustrating for both sides, but weak in general/at base. Overall I think he needs a rework.
A stronger, less RNG heavy base power and an add-on overhaul a well as more reliable counterplay would be my suggestion. Less extremes on both sides of high and low. He definitely needs help but his power design is so unhealthy and snowbally you need to be careful with it. Details below if you care:
His power isn't great usually, but the only counterplay is hope the map RNG likes you and your teammates can look around. 2 things you don't really have control over. Popping the 99% on a survivor with essentially no warning (TR) is pretty frustrating, especially because he most likely got it from someone else. It just feels extra bad to be punished much harder than normal for your teammate's misplay. Again, more stuff you don't usually have control over.
If he gets 1 good T3 off the game could be over right then and there with things like infectious and his passive buffs. If he only downs 1 person it was basically wasted, especially considering each survivor only ha a limited amount of stalk in them. The stalk limit should probably be removed. He's way too snowball reliant.
His stealth is also always active outside of T3. Just slap on Monitor and boom, 8 meter TR (witch is essentially nothing) and even at default is just 16. He also has his rabbit add-on. Combined with his non-standard TR, he gets the jump on people pretty easily (depending on RNG). This also makes him a soft counter to BT so if he wants to camp he's doing it and GL.
If he camps in T3 then it last so long the person on hook is most likely going to make it to stage 2 from full. EW3 last 60 seconds at base and each stage of the hook is also 60 seconds. Add in duration and it gets silly fast. Each tier of duration is +10 seconds (brown 10, yellow 20). So a purple alone will be 40 seconds added on, and those can be stacked. Not saying camping isn't a strat or anything, he just camps very well compared to the normal killer.
The things in the above 4 paragraphs make him frustrating for both sides. Either he snowballs and survivors feel like there wasn't much you could do because of the teammates, map, his stealth, chase buffs ect., or he waste his T3 or time getting to T3 and the Myer player feels like there wasn't much they could do. Both sides have valid reasons to feel this way in a lot of situations. Myers on Lery's? Yeah good luck to the survivors. Myers on the red forest maps? You can see him coming a mile away.
The add-ons also have way too much sway in them as to how well he preforms. Without them he's meh usually but with them his power shoot up a lot. But the downsides also feel pretty bad when you're playing him.
I think he's a little underrated. Although not good mind you, he's pretty bad, just not as bad as people make it out to be. I think Ghostface is weaker, but they're both bad and need buffs/updates.
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"I realize the old DS's true purpose is to able to do Gen while being invisible, not anti tunneling."
The Devs when they made the DS redesign in 2019:
"serves the purpose to protect you from being tunneled/ farmed."
Source: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/48381/design-decisive-strike
It was never meant to be used for free gen time, idk where you got that idea from. It was just poorly designed like many many things in the game so it got exploited/abused.
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@OniWantsYourMacaroni said:
Yeah,that is the really obnoxious part about BT.
Maybe a survivor with BT could lose collision so he won't be able to bodyblock anymore?
In return you could make BT always trigger if the killer is in a 24 or 32 meter radius of the unhook.
This idea I like. Solves the issues of offensive BT and the issue of killers like Freddy getting a free pass.
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Pretty heavily survivor favored, there's safe/god pallets everywhere.
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What everyone else has said, good idea, bad/weak execution.
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While I agree that overall it would be a healthier direction for the game, it would also need a whole rework of one of the foundations the game is built on. Not to say it wouldn't be worth doing, it's just a very big change, even if a certain version was agreed on.
The survivors just never dying period would also suck a lot of the satisfaction from the killer side for "winning". So it would have to be a system like, no one dies from getting hooked 3 times, but if the killer gets X hooks then all the survivors get sacrificed instantly. Something along those lines would probably be better overall imo and something I've purposed before.
So if the killer got lets say 10 hooks (or w.e.), the EGC entity animation would activate on everybody and the hooked survivor(s) get sacrificed as usual. 4 hooked at once would also end the match as well. You could also do something like, 6 hooks, first 2 survivors out escape and the last 2 get sacrificed to also make the endgame a competition for survival and potentially solve the 99% gate issue since survivors will want out.
In this theoretical system, things like camping and tunneling would also naturally be pushed away since you can't kill the 1 survivor anymore and you need hooks ASAP as opposed to the current need of a kill ASAP.
Just throwing ideas around but at the end of the day this would be work, and really not likely of happening. Especially with the slowness and reluctance of changing/working on minor things, let alone something core to the game at large, that the dev team has shown. You'd need to get essentially the whole community on board and essentially yelling at the devs, since that's apparently the only way to get them to maybe potentially listen.
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@SnakeSound222 said:
Wasn't Trick Blades his best add-on? And now they're turning it into a gimmick add-on? Do I have this right here?
Yes! 🙃
Gotta love a purple rarity gimmick add-on.
The rarity should be reduced to brown or yellow at least. I'll actively try to avoid this add-on because it is just throwing BPs in the trash essentially. Similar to Franks mixtape and stab wounds study vibes, waste of points.
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I don't see why not. The people who like it will use it and the ones who don't wont.
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Yeah that map is gross, safe pallets everywhere, very survivor sided imo. The map design is going backwards lately with the reworks, The Game is the most egregious example.
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More perks would also be nice, but half prices would help everything including perks.
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@Tactrix said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2006382#Comment_2006382
I haven't found that gen rushing is a real problem in that regard, bad killers think it is, good killers don't have a real problem with it because they end up hooking one and then systematically hunting the others when they try to rescue him, or hooking 2 and playing off between them.
Even killers who live on the game and have it as a job and aren't "bad killers" think its a problem, bad survivors don't think it is because they die too quickly and spend a lot of time wandering/hiding around so gens don't get done.
This is the main reason why there's such a lack of killer players right now, the gens flying by before they can do much. The only saving grace in the game right now is that a lot of survivor players are bad even in red ranks.
I play both sides and I escape more often than not when playing survivor unless someone (or multiple) others on my team are potatoes, I majorly mess up myself, or its Nurse Spirit or Freddy. Gen/game speeds are definitely too fast. The fact that you think that multiple people ganging on a gen was a problem when it really makes the game go slower leads me to believe you just don't have the experience or knowledge in this regard unfortunately. As well as it seems you are new around here with the low post count.
Capping the gen won't do much of anything since ganging up on gens is not really the problem. It would actually make the problem worse since people who would before gang up on a gen now won't/can't and will spread out instead. This would make games go faster overall.
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@Tactrix said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2006322#Comment_2006322
I didn't forget, I put that in, "if there are no other survivors around". It works the same way as pigs helmet works, when there are survivors around the timer stops for the killer debuff.
Oh ok I missed that detail on my first read. You'd have to make the survivor radius significantly bigger that he killer one. I could easily see survivors just running around the hook but outside the radius so the killer has to defend the hook but is getting penalized for doing so. Similar to how they will run towards and away from the hook to try and get the killers attention so their friends can get a free save, very common during endgame. I also wouldn't go with a speed penalty. I think the best thing to do would be to incentivize the killer to leave or rework the hook/death system entirely to solve camping and tunneling without screwing over killers for just trying to win.
@Tactrix said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2006315#Comment_2006315
Oh I was only speaking to the multiple people on 1 gen, as far as everyone on their own gen that's not a problem nor a strategy that should be re-evaluated. The amount of time it takes for people to do each gen solo is more than enough for a good killer to hook'em and start to rotation of hooks to end up winning.
I heavily disagree. A good survivor team (aka every spread out and hold M1 while someone gets chased) does not give most killers enough time. That's the exact problem most people are talking about right now. Multiple people on 1 gen makes the game go slower so that's not the source of games going to fast. Unless you're trying to slow down the end portion of the match, but most people agree that the best place to reduce speed would be the early game since again, 1 chase = 3 gens is not a healthy balance.
The only time killers have enough time is if the survivors are bad or the killer is playing Nurse, Spirit, or Freddy (or a killer similar in power should one come out). The survivors can also just royaly screw themselves with a 3 gen or something (but I put that in the "they're bad" category).
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@Tactrix said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2005948#Comment_2005948
That just means it works, because if a killer is sitting outside the radius they'll lose the game by camping just outside the radius, and they deserve the complete loss they get when the remaining survivors do all the other gens and then unhook for the win. What you've just described is actually exactly the way it should be.
I don't think you understood what they were saying. The survivors would purposely loop around the hooked survivor so that another survivor (or 2) would have a ton of free time to do gens. Even if the killer didn't want to camp, the survivors made them "camp" so that the killer would get the penalty(s).
The survivors abused it. You need to make something the survivors can't abuse if you want an anti-camp system.
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"gen rush" is not 4 people on 1 gen its everyone on their own gen. That's how gens get done the quickest overall and why we have the 3 gens pop after 1 chase issue. This change would maybe slow down the end potion of the game, but by that point the match is usually decided based on the early game. It wouldn't help the overall gen speed issue too much.
Multiple people on 1 gen early on actually gives the killer more overall time to kill everyone. There's specific scenarios when it works against the killer but usually it's better for them in the long run.
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If I could vote for more I'd put Hag as well, once she sets up her trap web there's not too much you can do as far as I know. Flash lights run out (if you're lucky to have one) and if someone tries to set them off she can just TP and switch targets. Not to mention the pain that is trying to unhook anyone; even if you don't set off the trap, while your squat shuffling away she has ample time to return since you're so slow. Your best bet is hope you're on a big map, hope they don't protect one area in particular (basically hope they're a bad hag because a good one won't leave the set up/web from my understanding), Hope they're across the map, hope you have something to tell when she's across the map, and then set off her traps. She's just inherently campy and strong when she is doing it and can force a 3 gen relatively easily if they commit to it.
Hag only has decent "counter-play" if the Hag player says so (they're a bad Hag) or you get lucky. Unless its like, swf seal team six all 4 survivors run trough all her traps at the same time scenarios (not common). The only thing slightly holding her back is gen speeds and that most people don't want to play/learn her. As far as I know at least, if someone has a consistent solution I'm more than open to hearing it out.
Of course Freddy as well, he just has too many abilities and put you to sleep for free and on hit. But we all pretty much know almost everyone hates playing against Freddy.
Same with Spirit, we all know most people don't like facing her. In essence its playing Survivor blindfolded since you never know where she is or where she's going next or what she's doing. Is she camping or phasing? Is she going to this side of the map or that side? Oh I'm injured, guess I just lose. If the player is at least decent then Spirit will do Spirit things.
Tl;dr Top 3: Spirit, Freddy, Hag imo.
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Late at night is when most people are free so a lot of killers switch off to play SWF as well as normal survivor players getting on at that time.
Conversely, because of the big influx of SWF a lot of killers don't play late because they don't want to deal with SWF things, and we all should know how frustrating SWF can be, so its not like I can really blame them.
I've done both of these before. I've played late SWF because that's when friends are free, and I avoided late killer because I just was not in the mood to deal with SWF that night in particular.
So yeah, late night survivor ques are pretty bad, I think I was in lobby for 10+ minuets last night each match. But unless killers get the tools to deal with a decent-good SWF or a big killer changes happens to bring people back to that role I don't think its going to improve.
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I'm sure most killers are tired of survivors tunneling/camping gens as well.
Its just both sides doing their objectives. Survivors need to realize that the way the game is designed it is in the killers best interest to get someone out the game ASAP the same way its in the survivors best interest to get a gen done ASAP. If its going to change a fundamental rework of the hook/death system needs to happen, and its most likely not.
Going for the 12 hook is the equivalent of survivors not finishing a gen till all the gens have 33% progress, I've never seen that happen. Its not smart for either side to spread out completion of their objective.
Killers also don't have the time to 12 hook unless the survivor team is bad (in most cases)and/or they're playing someone from the strong killers club (Nurse, Spirit, Freddy). So alternative to reworking hooks is to fix the gen speed issue while simultaneously implementing a good incentive for a killer NOT to get the 4v1 down to a 3v1. I'd have to be a very strong incentive.
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@SilentPill said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1989867#Comment_1989867
Huntress / Slinger and pretty much every other killer in the game suffer the same at the super safe loops and main buildings. I don’t know why you think this guy would be any different.
I don't know why you think I thought he would be, I never stated that. I was just saying you're not always going to be in that situation.
It depends on the map and tile rng and so on. Yeah Huntress and Slinger have the same issue, Huntress and slinger also benefit from being in the open and short loops as well.
Again, he doesn't need to be as strong as Huntress, but he's just a little too weak rn.
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@SilentPill said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1989764#Comment_1989764
He does look good though, maybe not red ranks 4 man SWF killing good but definitely plenty for purple/solo Q red given his low skill cap.
If you catch someone in the open or at short loops they are gonna go down without much effort on your part. And it looks pretty hard to screw up, unlike other easy killers like Bubba/Trapper where you can majorly screw up. You just spam them down and that’s that. I’m sure he will be pretty annoying with a chase build like Brutal+Bamboozle.
I don't think he looks very good and general impression seems to be he's pretty bad from what I've seen. 8 hits is a little much imo, maybe 5 or 6. iirc the only addons to reduce the number of hits needed is a purple and you need to bounce the knife and a red where you can't miss. I don't want an another add-on dependent killer, especially not if a purple/red is needed in every game.
You're not always going to be out in the open or in a short loop. He doesn't need to be (and probably shouldn't be) Huntress strong, but he's a little too weak right now imo.
Hopefully someone finds/shows something soon that makes him a little stronger.
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@SilentPill said:
It says difficulty easy for a reason. Clearly the game needs more console killers and this seems like a decent answer.
I get rainbow ranks almost every game as killer and I feel like it’s because there’s no in between. It’s either brand new killers or seasoned vets with thousands of hours. The rest get weeded out by the SWFs.
As a PC killer I don’t see much reason to play him over huntress/slinger, except for the fact you can down someone in a pretty funny fashion.
Most console players won't play him if he's weak though. He needs to at least be decently good.
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I like the idea of knife thrower and such, but the power is just kinda weak imo rn. 8 hits is too many, maybe if they reduce it to 6 or less. Especially considering he's 110/4.4 his power should be stronger.
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Option B was done before and was abused by survivors by just looping near the hooked survivor so the others could do gens pressure free since the one on hook would never progress.
Option A would just buff survivors and make hooking give less pressure since now you have more time to do w.e. like sit on gens or heal or anything really. Killers will still camp, they'll just camp for longer.
Option C is too long, essentially another hook state worth of time, basically same issues as before, free time for survivors and doesn't really matter if the killer camped or not to activate. I don't think this idea could work fundamentally without being too weak or too strong.
Giving survivors more time on the hook would not fix camping, it'll just make it take longer. There would have to be a fundamental game change to really "solve" the camping issue and it'll have to be on both sides in some way. If we're going to address killer camping we need to address survivors rushing/camping the hooks at the same time so the killer doesn't get screwed by whatever mechanic.
We're not even getting into the fact that defending hooks is something killers need to do sometimes and that 12 chase/hook games are not viable against any decent team.
Punishing the killer alone won't really work, we need to give them a reason not to camp objective wise or rework the hook/death system to the point camping is basically worthless, but also not tip things in the survivors favor.
If you can come up with something that punishes campers and rewards non-campers adequately (not just some piddling buff, something substantial) while also not being abusive by survivors, then that could also work.
Easier said than done.