MrPenguin
MrPenguin
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@kyogul said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1927931#Comment_1927931
The response isn't new because I'm simply stating you're not bringing in any new information and reiterating what I said. You responded to my thread initially with a mix of irrelevant information and then paraphrased information of what I already said, and bringing no new discussion points.
Saying "Do Bones" is just a way to finally admit - Look, I'm tired of having this conversation about NOED. The conversation never goes anywhere and the most insightful topic about NOED has been the debate on whether BHVR should add a Totem Counter. Then that leads to should Dull Totems do something else and the conversation dies there. Every other topic about NOED is usually just a survivor biased player complaining that the killer utilized a perk in the roster when you can shut the perk down relatively easily and play around it. The only thing that usually makes this perk excel is when a survivor lacks map knowledge (Totem Spawns) or doesn't assume the killer might have an ace in the hole for later in this case being NOED.
First of all, you aren't in any place to tell me what my intentions are for making the thread. Let's discuss the rest:
- You being tired of the conversation is irrelevant
- Your opinion of "it doesn't go anywhere" of other NO ED topics is irrelevant
- bringing up totem counter when I never talked about that
- bringing up other alternatives to what dull totems to do which I never talked about that
- brought up "survivor bias" when I never blamed killer players for anything and I purely blamed survivors
So what are you on mate? You judged erroneously based on past NO ED topics.
If this wasn't the intention I'll be honest with you that's the immediate impression I got from your thread. Which is again why the first part of my post is there otherwise it would have just been the second paragraph with possibly more parts to it.
Let's see here: you co-sign a post calling me ignorant but yet you lot did nothing but reiterate what I already said. Interesting.
Also not sure what excuses you're talking about...? What I wrote is pretty simple but it seems like you lot are having a hard time understanding, and you're superimposing irrelevant information for whatever reason
You talk about me not understanding what the perks are, yet you are slapping BS about DS. Devs never said it was intended to be anti-tunnel:
https://i.imgur.com/q3Qieuz.png
Mind you, this was in response to a thread titled: "Have the devs confirmed ds is supposed to be a "anti tunnel perk"?"
I made my point simple, and you lot are talking about something else that's pretty irrelevant and I'm about done trying to parse through it since my point is pretty easy to understand. I will requote what I said as a summary of the general topic:
The conversation is not about should NO ED be changed. It's about the sassy response of "just do totems" when it's not always, and often not that simple, particularly in solo queue. The response in and of itself is not inherently sassy but when people complain about NO ED and whatnot and get mocked at as if it's their individual fault not all five totems were done when it's meant to be a team experience, and it's often not. That's my point.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1927952#Comment_1927952
And topics are repeated all the time on this forum. I'm going to talk about what I feel like, not my problem if you have an issue with it.
You can move on and go to another thread and complain about something else instead of being snippy about a topic you don't like. The irony of complaining about complaining.
"Devs never said it was intended to be anti-tunnel."
2019 DS redesign dev post:
"players were able to use DS a long time after being unhooked, where it no longer serves the purpose to protect you from being tunneled/ farmed"
Source: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/48381/design-decisive-strike
Just thought I'd clear that up since I didn't see anyone else do it (unless I missed it). It was intended to be anti-tunnel/farm at the very least from the redesign.
That Peanits post was in 2020, and he used the word "purely" for a reason. That means yes its supposed to be ant-tunnel, but its also for something(s) else. As far as the devs have said, that something else is anti-farm. "Not purely" does NOT mean "not at all". Its not "no its not for anti-tunel" it is "its not only for anti-tunnel."
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I think a volume slider for killer noises at the very least would be fine at the least. I know the devs want loud noises on the killers side to handhold survivors into getting away mid chase, but I shouldn't think my volume is fine just to have Demo blow up my eardrums with my next action. The difference is too much imo.
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Yeah because hatch exist. Hatch should get removed and EGC should be put in its place imo.
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@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1926912#Comment_1926912
That is true, but I remember another dev saying it was the community that called it an anti-tunnel perk and that it wasn't strictly what it was intended to be. I just know it will not be a decisive strike now because it is nowhere close to its narrative. It would be like sprint burst perk that doesn't really give you a sprint burst.
Yes I know that post as well.
"The idea of it being purely to stop tunneling came from the community."
If we just take what they have said, it's not purely anti-tunnel, it is also anti-farm. Just from that alone they would line up. As far as I know that's all that's been said about it dev wise. Just might want to change wording next time since it has been said to be specifically anti-tunnel, just not only anti-tunnel.
I'm not sure what you mean by "its narrative". If you mean the perk name, it's not the only one in the game that its effect doesn't quite make sense with its name. But that's kinda silly to balance around. If you want to advocate to change the name then go ahead, I think that's fine.
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@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1919632#Comment_1919632
It was never said to be specifically anti-tunnel. It doesn't even serve that purpose well and it for sure won't now. How is doing the objective abusive? Killers can play the game normally but survivors can't?
Killers can abuse it now for the reasons I mentioned. The perk will be so bad it won't be used, therefore It is definitely not a healthy change when you lose a perk for doing the objective and when there is no obsessions everyone will be tunneled. It's only healthy for killers, to make the game even easier for them where 4K bloodbaths are the norm.
"It was never said to be specifically anti-tunnel."
2019 DS redesign dev post:
"players were able to use DS a long time after being unhooked, where it no longer serves the purpose to protect you from being tunneled/ farmed"
Source: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/48381/design-decisive-strike
Little late to the party here but just thought I'd clear that up since I didn't see anyone else do it (unless I missed it). It was intended to be anti-tunnel/farm at the very least from the redesign.
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@BaconyToast said:
Theoretically, if you run the Plague's perk that moves your terror radius to the Obsession on hit, would you see Killer Instinct on those in that radius?
Yes I believe that perk works that way with FF. You see those in the new TR. Would be best combined with the range increase add-on probably because you cant control where the survivor runs after you hit them. Also remember you need to basic attack to activate Dark Devotion, which lowers Legion power gauge, so you'd have to wait for it to come back and waste the perks active time.
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@jrinkwater said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1921657#Comment_1921657
Yes but it comes with its risks. Sure, eveey aura reading add on now reveals the killer, but again... he can see you. And its rng based that you get in a game with that.
Sure the perk is still strong and a nuisance in some ways... but my god is it better. And maybe more tweaks will be added
Yeah I just don't think survivor perks should be 1 to 1 with killers, it is 1v4 after all.
I'd take this version over the live one any day. Just a simple cooldown or something would help, maybe even a token system like a reverse distortion. Just an unlimited aura counter on potentially all 4 survivors is a lot.
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@DemonDaddy said:
Swf can force it but It's usually up to the killer if they take it or not, my survivors can't use it.
Any survivor can force DS, not just swf. Just run up for the unhook with DS up. Done, no swf needed. Its more organized in swf, but thats about it.
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@ShamelessPigMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1920431#Comment_1920431
I can agree with DS being incredibly powerful in terms of its payload. However, the modifications keep going to the activation requirements instead of its effects; that's what I don't like.
Yeah I can understand that. If I understand correctly, you believe the effect of DS just doesn't fit the anti-tunnel idea behind it so changing the requirement won't fix the problem. Given the points brought up in the OP and such, I can say that sounds reasonable.
Now the question is what to change the effects to. We are talking about 2 complex and controversial subjects, so apologies for the long post. But I'll try to break down the issues on their own in my current view and understanding if you even care to read about it.
On DS becoming a focused second chance perk:
Second chance perks are very volatile right now (and have been for a while) since their are so many of them and they can be stacked freely. I don't think we should go back to OG DS days where each survivor essentially had a extra hook state with deliverance attached (they free themselves). So a much different version of the perk or putting some general restriction on second chance perks similar to exhaustion but match long would be ideal. So you can only have one second chance a game. Then you can balance each one individually and they'd be easier to work with.
On a dedicated anti-tunneling perk:
I don't know what to really purpose at this time, it'd have to be something the survivors essentially have no control over or they would most likely abuse it. Something along the lines of UB before DS got redesigned. A survivor couldn't make a killer slug them so unbreakable was "fine" (potentially a little weak) as a second chance. Its when they got DS and got control to say "you need to slug me or you get punished, but if you do I get off free" that UB+DS became an issue as a lose-lose situation. Potentially we could lump them into the second chance category and put in the limit I previously mentioned, which would again, make them easier to work with as you wouldn't need to consider every other perk like what led to UB + DS.
It'd also have to be something that can detect when the killer is ignoring other survivors just to go after you. But even that is tricky since going for the guy that's on death hook and injured and not the other guy that is healthy (or even injured depending) with 0-1 hooks is just the right play to make and a common situation. Also, as you stated, just stumbling upon the same survivor is a thing.
Creating an anti-tunnel perk that can't be easily abused or is too strong is very difficult since that's directly tied to killers objective and their optimal goal of getting someone out the game asap. Turning the 4v1 into a 3v1 is a very big deal to the killer gameplay. Making a perk to cover that up will still leave core issues.
You can't really just limit the killers power to get someone out the game too hard since that's literally their main objective. Its a fundamental problem with the game on the killer side and hard to really address it without screwing the killer side over for just wanting to win/play well.
If you did, you'd have to do an equivalent to the survivor side to balance things out. The new DS deactivations are at least a good starting point, as far as I see, as that's what it does, both sides can't make progress while its up.
The ideal solution, in my opinion, would require a rework of the hook/death system and then tunneling can be more easily addressed by disassociating it from the objective. But that's not happening. So we'd probably have to settle for half solutions or something unrealistic like getting the whole community on board to purposely play the game sub-optimally on both sides so everyone can have more fun
The new DS is a half solution. Is getting someone out the game asap still optimal? yes. Is this an ideal anti-tunnel? no. But it helps a little without screwing killers too hard (at least that's the current prediction).
I would love a better solution and am open to hearing them out, but its very hard to do with the way the game was fundamentally designed.
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Its better than current OoO, without a doubt. The obsession effect is much more balanced imo.
I think the first general effect needs a tweak or to be changed.
The killers aura being revealed absolutely anytime the killer can see the survivors is a bit much, especially unlimited use with no restrictions or drawbacks. It'd work against way too much and give way too much info for 1 survivor perk imo.
Something like the Oni add-on would essentially let survivors see the Oni all the time while injured. People are already thinking of pairing the perk with MoM. BBQ now shows the survivors which direction you're heading in.
If new OoO becomes widely used, every killer aura perk/add-on will, in practice, be heavily nerfed as a result.
Maybe a different effect such as always being able to see the obsessions aura would be better as that has a much less likelihood to be volatile since its not revealing the killer. If you are the obsession you get to see the killer instead as a trade for not being able to see a teammate, and use the current purposed iteration for that aspect. Alternatively we could also limit the first effect in some way to not be so powerful such as a cooldown or something.
Or maybe it'll be fine. All in all I'd be ok with this version going live and adjusting from there if need be.
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I think the aura being revealed anytime the killer can see yours is a bit much, especially unlimited, for anyone (not just the obsession), and since the killer can't really do anything about it. It works against way too much for 1 perk imo. I would change that effect to something else or make it only work for the obsession. Even with obsession only SWF will abuse it though to just relay what perks the killer is using, so I believe it'd be best to give it a different effect.
But its much better than what we have now, which isn't saying much since what we have now is disgusting. But I'd choose this version over what we have now any day.
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@Elena said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1920394#Comment_1920394
Uh, DS released in 2016, it was redesigned 2 years ago yes.
Maybe it was a miscommunication between the developer team as both our sources are legitimate.
Yeah and that Peanits quote was made in 2020. DS release => DS redesign, stated as anti-tunnel => Quote
Like I said, the original idea from over 2 years ago and that quote was being used as a way to argue the point "DS was not intended, ever, to be an anti-tunnel perk." Which is not correct as in the redesign they stated it "serves the purpose to protect you from being tunneled/ farmed" and then Peanits said his quote, which its not "purely" anti-tunnel. Which is correct as it was stated to have at least one other use, but that's all they have said as far as I have seen. But it was being argued that somehow that means it was not meant to counter tunneling. "Not purely" turned into "not at all".
I'm just saying that's not correct, its been intended to counter tunneling for 2 years now and they didn't say otherwise. If the argument is that it should be reworked that's fine, but don't say it was never intended to be anti-tunnel and twist a quote around.
But it seems like we're on a better track now with that being the focus (reworking it).
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@ShamelessPigMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1920284#Comment_1920284
The idea shifted, but it did so in a messy and disorderly transition. DS is an awful, awful anti-tunnel perk, because:
1) It just doesn't discourage tunneling enough; if anything, getting hit with a DS is now free license to tunnel since you don't have to worry about it anymore.
2) It's too broad. Just because you got off the hook doesn't mean you're getting tunneled.
Just as the devs took the opportunity those years ago to take it in a new direction, they ought to change course on this as well.
I can see where you're coming from with those arguments and wouldn't be opposed to a rework of the perk entirely.
DS is/was extremely powerful as its much more than just a stun. Its a stun + free health state + chase reset + do what you want free card (usually). Hence why it's run so much and It's been a problem since it's creation and it would probably be a good move to completely scrap the idea and remake it into something else entirely (like a much more focused anti-tunnel perk).
In the meantime, this version is at least better, but again a rework isn't a bad idea either. People aren't mad about DS because "oh now I can't tunnel" its more of "Oh I got punished hard for trying to stop the survivors and this is basically a free card for them to do what they want" and could lose people games. So yeah I could see making it more of a tunneling deterrent but it'd need to be a whole new thing because its current mechanics would be too strong to really use without it being abused.
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@Elena said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1917629#Comment_1917629
I believe the OP was talking about the DS we have currently.
Although designed as anti-tunnel, Peanits had said not long ago that the team never labelled it as an anti-tunnelling perk but rather the community came up with it.
Yes we are talking about current DS, OP is bringing up the potential design philosophy behind DS over 2 years ago when it was first made. Then we got the redesign where they said its intended to counter tunneling and farming. Then Peanits made that statement.
The devs labeled it as anti-tunnel and anti-farm in their redesign of DS before Peanits made that quote, so that doesn't exactly line up.
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@ShamelessPigMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1919887#Comment_1919887
No perk is going to be purely dedicated to a singular purpose; power struggle is meant to be a rudimentary second chance, but can be transformed into an anti-slugging perk. Breakdown is meant to prevent farming, but hooks just don't spawn that far apart. Perks have an idea, or a focus, in mind when they are created, which is as flexible as the community pleases.
The idea behind DS was a second chance, hence why it procs only once. If anything, killers are going to tunnel survivors who DS them even more, now that they don't have to worry about DS. Of course, the devs tried to transform it into an anti-tunnel perk, but made the mistake of keeping parts of its old self. DS still revolves around a second chance, and trying to push it into the realm of anti-tunnel perks is like shoving a square into a triangle.
If they want to transform it into an anti-tunnel perk, they need to pull. tinkerer-style makeover. A complete overhaul of functionality.
If that was the original idea, the idea changed 2 years ago into anti-tunnel which is what the perk is supposed to be now and that 2 year old ideal is no longer relevant since it was so long ago.
If your argument is that you think it needs a rework to better fit the function then that's a different conversation than what the perk is supposed to be for right now and what is intended by the people working on the game. If that's the point you want to move forward with then go with that and thats fine (as you did in part of the op), but saying its not intended to be anti-tunnel is just incorrect in its current form and the form it was in when that quote was made and since its redesign. As far as we know and have been told at least.
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@Bwsted said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1919951#Comment_1919951
Do you know if it it deactivates if the DS person starts healing themselves?
iirc it does deactivate if you use self care or a med kit, but not if something like second wind, inner strength, or a plague fountain heals you.
source: https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/lco6u8/upcoming_decisive_strike_rework/
official behavior post and looks like clarifications are in the comments
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"other teammates trying to heal them immediately and deactivating their DS even though they were only healed for half a second."
As I heard thats not possible, it only deactivates if the person with DS up tries to heal someone else. If the DS up survivor gets healed by someone else it stays active.
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@Kebek Thank you, someone who reads before they quote something. The misinformation and twist that have spread about this one quote is insane.
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@Bond4ever said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1919747#Comment_1919747
That's why I think deactivating DS if you heal someone is stupid.
And unhooking someone is stupid too, let's say you're in the basement with other survivor and u got unhook, and then unhook X survivor, now ds is usseles and the killer is coming back for you.
Just let the guy who unhooked you unhook the other one, now you both have DS. The unhooking clause is to stop survivors from just running into your face for the unhook because "tee hee, I have DS so either way I get the save" or having both survivors have DS up so now no matter who you go after you lose. That needs to stay. Also in that example that would mean there 3 survivors in the basement and 2 of them got hooked beforehand. Guess going after 50-75% of the team is tunneling now?
The healing one I don't feel strongly about, but if you feel safe enough and have the time to heal you're most likely not being tunneled or you made a bad play.
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@ShamelessPigMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1917997#Comment_1917997
My point was that DS' original concept was to be a second chance perk, but its activation requirements made it give off the appearance of an anti-tunnel perk. It's too broad and too situational to be an effective anti-tunnel perk, so it should just be nerfed as a second chance perk, while an actual, dedicated, conceptually anti-tunnel perk is added.
I'm not sure about its original OG version but it has been intended to be anti-tunnel since before its rework since that's why they added a timer. Since it did way more than just protect tunneling/farming. As they stated: "players were able to use DS a long time after being unhooked, where it no longer serves the purpose to protect you from being tunneled/ farmed".
That means the intention for it to be anti-tunnel was there fore the timer was added. Exactly when is up for debate and kinda not important since the perk has been anti-tunnel intended for so long now even if not from the beginning. Its not the "appearance" of anti-tunnel, it is anti-tunnel. If anything its implementation gave it the appearance that it was intended for way more than it was, like anti-momentum. It appears they're trying to rectify that with these future changes.
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@Bond4ever said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1917737#Comment_1917737
You're twisting things and putting them how you like it.
DS isn't only supposed to be a anti tunnel and anti farming (you're twisting the argument to make it seem like it is only supposed to be anti tunnel / farming)
And I dont get where you're trying to make the perk a anti farm, unless you have DS + UB, yes, but we're talking only about DS.
It isn't a anti farm, cause the killer could easily slug you, and that's a win for him... still dont see how tht's good for the survivor
Next time check before you respond as I already addressed that quote.
I'm not twisting anything, I'm just saying they never said it was NOT anti-tunnel, they actually said the opposite since "not purely" means "yes but it includes another things(s)" especially combined with the fact they literally stated in their design that its supposed to be anti-tunnel and anti-farm.
I'm not trying to make it anti-farm, it already is. If your teammates far you off hook, you had DS to help if the killer went for you, hence anti-farm. A slug is still better than a hook and potentially getting killed out the game because a teammate farmed you.
If anyone the one trying to force things into their argument is you. I'm just saying this is what they said, and as far as we know this is all they want it to be/intend it to be since they haven't said anything otherwise as far as I know or anyone has brought up besides twisting the same quote. "Not purely" does not mean "not at all" and it never did. People just said "look he said its not only for tunneling, that means we can use this as an excuse to say its for anything". As far as its been stated, the devs intend the perk to be anti-tunnel and anti-farm.
If you personally feel/want it to be for something else that's a different conversation.
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@EvilJoshy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1919573#Comment_1919573
It's a good thing because I can picture some douche bag saving you, touching you to remove your DS then running away.
yeah I agree, it'd be pretty bad if your teammates could just snatch your perk away.
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From what I hear it was cleared up that it only deactivates if you (the person with DS active) starts a healing action yourself (like healing someone else or self-care), not when someone else or a perk/killer power (Second wind/Plague fountains) heals you.
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yeah base regression is pitiful. 1/4 the speed of 1 survivor when there's 4 of them is not enough imo.
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iirc they said the cosmetics would make their way to the store eventually when they were talking about the first rift. So I wouldn't say they were meant to be exclusive.
I believe the only exclusive thing is the charms, and I don't know if they ever said it was going to stay that way for charms either.
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@ShamelessPigMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1917629#Comment_1917629
Perhaps you weren't around in the original DS days. You could escape the killer's grasp once at any time you wanted. Its purpose may have changed, but its adaptation was ill-thought.
No, I was around. I never said it was implemented well, just the intention was there. Since that was the subject of discussion brought up. If it was implemented well from the beginning it wouldn't need as many changes as its seen.
At least they're on a better track right now.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1917756#Comment_1917756
I know it’s only been a couple of lines above you but I did suggest the killer has Nurse’s Calling. It doesn’t matter how careful you are, a killer can easily spot you from a decent distance.
Point still remains. I play both sides and this change seems absurd.
Nurses only has 28 meters, stay out of TR before you heal. Without leading a trail to you the killer won't know which way you went.
I play both sides and the change seems fine.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1917723#Comment_1917723
No. They did. What exactly should they have done? Go to the end of the map to heal? While the killer gets a “free” down because they want to abuse a mechanic that allows them to do so? You obviously don’t understand bad plays vs abuse of a mechanic.
“Guess some people just need Ds...”
Yeah. Falls right in line with: Guess some killers just need to camp and tunnel.
Thats not what they did if they got found so easily. You're assuming the killer knows where they are right away and finds them before the heal finishes. Maybe don't leave a trail of scratch marks leading straight to you.
If you have time to hide and feel safe enough to heal someone else you're not being tunneled, DS shouldn't activate.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1917679#Comment_1917679
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1262120#Comment_1262120
Here. Dont see how anything can be twisted there.
Neither do I but people still do it. Where does he say its not to stop tunneling? He doesn't. He says "purely" which in this context means "only". He's right, its also used to stop farming. As far as we know that's it, tunneling and farming. As far as I know thats all the devs have said on the matter.
So "purely" tunneling? No. Its also for farming protection.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1917589#Comment_1917589
so what do you expect survivors to do when they find a “safe” spot, killer brings Nurses and lo n behold, the survivor was “touched” so the killer tunnels the unhooked survivor.
Guess they should have played better and safer huh? 🤔
They should have found a better spot further away or heal the hooked survivor first since they will still have DS up unless they do the healing from what it seems. So yeah they should play better.
Guess some people just need DS to be a free pass on their bad plays 🤔
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1917629#Comment_1917629
But Devs have also stated that DS is not an Anti-Tunnel Perk.
@Topic: Reducing the Stun-Duration would render DS useless. When it was 3 seconds, you were not able to get away at all, since roughly half of that time (around 1,5 seconds, I think 1,3 was it to be precise) was used for the animation, which allows the Survivor to get away 6 meters.
give me a source and quote? If you mean that one penits post, people keep twisting that and he didn't say its not anti-tunnel.
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Looks good to me.
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Yes right now I am happy to see the changes and hopefully they will stick.
Hope this trend continues.
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"As many have said, DS was not intended, ever, to be an anti-tunnel perk."
Those people are wrong, DS was intended to be anti-tunnel and anti-farm from the beginning.
Quote from the devs about DS in its redesign/rework/w.e.
"players were able to use DS a long time after being unhooked, where it no longer serves the purpose to protect you from being tunneled/ farmed"
Source: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/48381/design-decisive-strike
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Move to a safe spot before healing.
An unhook shouldn't be free because of DS, thats not what the perk is for and not what it should be used for.
Everything mentioned is on the survivor for making a risky/bad play, the killer shouldn't be punished for trying to stop a bad play on the survivor end.
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As others have said, move to a safer spot before healing.
As for the gen thing just don't tap the gen. A gen already regresses a 1/4 of 1 survivor working on it and there's 4 of them (at match start), it also takes a killer a few seconds to start regression and a survivor 1 frame to stop it.
For perspective to get 20 seconds of gen time regressed no none needs to be on it for 80 seconds. That's a whole other gen completed from 0 in time. So for losing 20 seconds on one gen you completed another (or multiple if more people are on gens like they should be).
So tldr: base regression is so bad its really not a big deal to let it go on to keep your DS if you need to use it. Someone else will get on the gen or they will complete another one before it should matter.
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They can't progress the objective or do much besides follow you around if they really want to use it. I think this is fine. They go into a locker let them and go after someone else (like the unhooker).
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@Komodo16 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1886121#Comment_1886121
See if did that to me it's like admitting I'm bad. But k know I'm not bad and that I usually always wreck unless I cant compete with gens or if I get cucked like this. And I swear having to deal with bad game design and console being abysmal it makes me feel like I'm trash so I feel like I have to get multiple 4k just to make up for it
I mean there's only so much you can do, the game is designed in a way that killers are at a hefty disadvantage the majority of the time. Even players who basically live on the game or have it as a job can struggle with it. Sometimes (or even more often than not depending) the game just says "no" and unless the survivors are bad then you aren't realistically winning.
In high level play on both sides survivors just kinda win outside of a few edge cases Like Nurse. Its just the way the game is, it doesn't mean you're bad at the game, its rigged in the survivors favor. The killer side for the most part relies on survivor mistakes, if they don't make enough mistakes you just don't win sometimes.
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I mean if you break it down their both just doing the objective the fastest/efficient way. Get a gen done asap get a kill asap.
Survivors focus gens killers focus kills, that's the game. The double standard for what is "ok" is unfair, yet here we are. Either its ok for both, or its not for both.
It goes both ways, survivors want killers to not focus them out? Ok stop focusing gens. "Oh so we just have to stand around?" I mean not necessarily, go do a totem go find a chest. Otherwise yeah, you need to give the killer time to 12 hook if you want them to 12 hook. Otherwise don't complain when they focus someone out because a 3v1 is easier to deal with and the smart move rather than leaving it as a 4v1.
"oh thats our objective." Yeah and the killers is to kill you before you escape. If you want them to stretch out their objective you need to do the same.
Focus gens, then killers focus friends.
Or we can give you a second objective like totems to take up some time, oh wait survivors didn't like that.
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Oni is pretty tough on controller with the sudden sensitivity change. Its very disorientating combined with his camera getting shoved into the ground. So controller Oni is much more difficult to control and you could say he's easier to juke because of this, not to mention fps issues and general console killer disadvantage.
Other than that yeah killer kinda sucks in general as well. You're better off just playing survivor or not playing the game in my opinion. Let the survivor que times rise and your blood pressure go down.
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Generally speaking, survivor mains (at the very least the vocal ones) mostly don't care or don't think. They just want you to play the game the way they want you to so they can T-bag and "gg ez" at the end even though that means you're pretty much purposely throwing the game or playing poorly/sub-optimal. They only care about survivor fun and doing it as easily as possible while being toxic. If you don't bend to their whim they will throw insults and throw a fit.
If you don't do everything in your power to make the survivors have the best time possible they will be upset. In you situation unless you literally just leave so they can get the unhook you will probably be called a camper/tunneler.
Or maybe they just really don't understand the game at all from the other side or in general. Lacking in perspective/experience is a large part of it as well.
Again, that's generally, there's exceptions of course. This is part of the reason why there's so many jokes/terms like "survivor handbook" and "If your on the map your camping and tunneling". Its part of why the killer role is kinda viewed as the "survivor entertainment" role.
Survivors don't understand they're a very big part of why they might be seeing a killer doing things they don't like because of the survivors own misplays and bad decisions. It doesn't help that the survivor meta perks are basically thing that reward survivors for making mistakes or it erases them, so that's just what they do as the game is encouraging and enabling them to and not only do they get away with it, but get a benefit from it.
They don't see that sometimes there is reasonably no better or other choice unless you want to be "nice" aka "lose games", just for them to probably be toxic anyways.
Its just part of their group mindset, and that's very hard to change. Killers get barely, if any, respect in the community. Its really sad and frustrating to see. There would have to be some big "Killers are players too" movement or something, and I don't see that happening. As much as I wish it would.
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Unbreakable might maybe be fine on its own, its all the second chances combined that cause dumb situations where the killer can't realistically do anything. There's a perk for any smart move a killer should be making.
Hook them - DS
Slug them - UB/Adrenaline
Punish an unsafe unhook - BT
They won't make the loop, down them - DH
ect.
You add in these are all usually run in tandem and survivors will purposely put themselves in your way with something like current DS and BT and it just becomes a big lose-lose-lose for the killer in a lot of situations.
Also like others have said, the survivors pretty much need to allow you to slug by all being grouped up, all going down quickly, and no one picking anyone else up, 4 survivors in a row. That's kinda on them at that point and I don't agree with a perk just undoing multiple misplays on the survivor side by just holding down a button.
So maybe UB should be looked into on its own, but the second chance combos definitely need to go. I haven't thought about it much before, but I can definitely see the argument for why UB can be a little dumb and just erase survivor misplays. I don't think we need many, if any, perks like that. Yet we full loadouts filled with them.
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I don't know about every week but there are plenty of perks that could be made much better with just simple number changes that could be addressed pretty frequently.
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As others have said, its probably just negativity bias and such. People are much more likely to speak about something bad happening to them rather than something good. When a positive post does end up on the forums like "Oh I just won my last 10 games" it usually dies quickly as there's not much to say but "congrats" and such. So those get pushed away from most peoples eyes very quickly.
The frequency of good survivors definitely changes throughout the day as well and sometimes people just get unlucky. Recently I had 3-4 games in a row where there was an OoO user in it (one match had 2) even though I haven't seen that perk in 2 weeks or so at least before said incident.
How strong your killers are can also play a big part in how many of your games feel frustrating and such as a good survivor team will have a much easier time doing well against, or even bullying, a Clown or Legion than a Spirit or Nurse, so people playing those weaker killers will have many more frustrating matches.
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@lostboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1878894#Comment_1878894
This all works fine above, but hooking another survivor doesn’t solve the tunnelling issue as the 2nd video shows. You can literally tunnel a survivor off the hook, knock them down and then hook someone else to deactivate the DS. The survivor who was unhooked deserves in that instance the DS to remain active as they did nothing to progress the game.
Why hasn't the survivor team picked up that person if the killer has found another survivor and done a whole other chase and also wasted the time to hook them?
I would say we could keep it active if you are down when someone gets hooked, but survivors will abuse that and purposely run into the killers way when they have DS even more than they do now to try and make sure they get to use it. I don't know if we can have a perfect solution but deactivating when someone else gets hooked is better than what we have right now.
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In the ~2 years I've been playing this game:
In any normal match? No not once.
In a match where I was just focusing on challenges and letting survivors do the same or just being extra generous/nice because of my mood that day? Yes.
I've never had a survivor give me a sacrifice for having a bad game or anything.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1882545#Comment_1882545
Oh of course, that's why I said probably top 5, not top. I would also put Nurse, Blight and Huntress above her.
"She's very much on the level of most basic killers, all her power is is a speed boost while invisible. Which is very strong, but very simple."
I feel that's a bit disingenuous. It isn't just an invisible stealth boost. She is also giving all of the survivors a stealth...that is not a small caveat by any means. She also can't brute force a hit since she's 110%. You could be a Trapper that just sucks a putting traps down correctly and still brute force hits since you're 115%.
On brute force: Well I mean she can you'll just take longer. But I see what you mean. I just don't think its that big a deal since you can unphase near them and cut a very large portion of that time out even if you don't get right on top of them and still probably end the chase much faster than a 115% can since they need to walk all of it.
On power simplification: Yeah that's kinda oversimplifying her power, but I never really saw the losing survivor vision as a big deal either since the scratch marks and sounds will lead you right to them anyway, so what is it really doing? Maybe if your bad at picking up sounds it'll be rougher for you but so will killer in general and then we're going off of players ill suited for that particular character. Sometimes a character just isn't for someone, in any game, not just this one.
It really depends on where you draw the line. If your view is just any killer that isn't M1 based is not easy then that's half the roster or more. I believe a big part of this conversation that might not have been touched on is where do we draw the line between easy and not easy.
She's 1 step over an M1 from what I consider "difficulty" in a killer, which is not saying much, in my opinion and based on my experience playing killer (I'm not saying killer is easy in case that was a thought anyone has).Going into detail why, if you care:
Just using the same criteria I put above (Aim, trap, hard movement) for augments sake, that would put Nurse, Blight, Hag, Trapper, Huntress, Cone Head, Demo, Twins and Death slinger above her (9 so far). If we loosen the restriction a bit to some easier killer powers we could also add Oni, Hillbilly, and Pig (12). Clown and Doctor have aoe so they're not exactly hard to use, so I can exempt them. Not saying I think absolutely all of these killers are necessarily hard to use, but I'd find it hard to put her in my top 5. Could put her in my top 10, but thats about it. In a game of 22 killers she might make top 50% maybe and the rest are all pretty much M1 killers. So not counting the bare minimum which is M1 with a support power, she'd still be on the bottom portion.
Its hard for me to really see Spirit as not easy when I have someone I spend a lot of time with who can't function as a basic killer as they will miss scratch marks outside of a chase that are right in front of them, never mind game loops, not the best at picking up sounds and need to run predator because they can't follow scratch marks otherwise. You would think this person would struggle as Spirit, yet this same person mains Spirit because they find them the easiest to play and plays her by running down every healthy survivor and only phasing in chase when they're injured. They still phase to get around the map and such, and yes it is pain in my soul to watch, but they still get at least 1 kill in most of their games and usually 2 and sometimes more. Especially coupled with my own experiences of mostly 3-4k's with Spirit so far, I just find it hard to put her in outside the "easy" category given everything I've seen and experienced. Maybe if I played her more regularly I'd see more, but the rare times I do play her its much more laid back.
She gives a lot of leeway that other killers don't have.
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@sulaiman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1882512#Comment_1882512
To be fair, in those 60 games my escape rate was about 80% so far, and 4ks in general were rarer than 0ks. But its just my experience, and certainly a lot of rng is involved, since i only play solo, and a lot depends on what allys you get. But even then, its a small sample size with no statistical impact other than my own performance.
I do generally escape more often than I don't but I just chalk that up to survivor strength rn and that I usually play with friends. We're not in call or anything but at least I don't have to roll the teammate dice. They might be bad but their not random player bad
Just as someone who plays both sides Spirit is probably the killer I dislike the most because she's such a pain to play against and also one I find easy when I play as her. Also drawing in from their experience they for the most part feel the same except for 1 who literally can't play her because he's deaf.
I try not to judge a killer based on when others play them too much because I don't know anything about said person, I try to do most of my judgements when I play as them personally. The only thing I can really take away from those games is things about the killer itself like "how strong is the power? How easy is it to counter? How does it feel to play against?" since you need both sides for things like that.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1882518#Comment_1882518
Well where do we draw our reference material for easy?
Compared to the rest of the killer roster she is not easy. This is where I have been comparing from in my previous posts.
If we're not basing it on anything then we could just say DBD in general is easy. Sure I can agree DBD in general is easy. Without basing it on anything saying something is easy doesn't really have much weight to me as it's extremely subjective.
Well ok, well compared to using say Blight or Nurses power, 2 that are generally considered fairly difficult from what I gather, she doesn't even come close. I personally also find her easier to play than the aiming killers like Huntress and ect., don't know if others feel the same. I could also potentially see her power as also easier to just use well than the trapping killers since she doesn't need set up or similar map knowledge or anything.
She's very much on the level of most basic killers, all her power is is a speed boost while invisible. Which is very strong, but very simple.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1882499#Comment_1882499
You're misconstruing "easy to win with" and "easy".
In "easy" we are referencing skill to use, not the outcome of winning or losing.
That is to say that winning lots of matches does not imply easy. As I pointed out earlier, lots of bad/new players don't know how to play against Spirit.
IE you could win lots of matches with Spirit because survivors are bad.
So "easy to win" would be a statement I could see more argument behind rather than the argument of "easy". This is because the first statement is factoring in the players you are against, not simply you as the Spirit in the second statement.
But I also said she's still easy. Maybe not hold W hit M1 easy, but easy. Like I also said, its not necessarily that she's easier than playing an M1, But she's still easy. Harder than M1 maybe, hard in general no.