MrPenguin
MrPenguin
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2348857#Comment_2348857
There's no counter play to Lithe or Balanced Landing for distance and they give you 3 seconds instead of 1. So obviously this isn't an argument.
A) We're not talking about those perks, hello whataboutism. So Obviously this isn't an argument.
B) Those require specific tiles or a cost associated to running them. SB you have to walk around or use it and risk it not being up when you need it for example. Lithe might require you to drop a pallet and outplay the killer to get good use out of it. You risk getting a map you'll have a very difficult time getting use out of balanced landing as well as planning a good path to get to an area to use it. DH is just "get hit, now you can E to outplay". So there's no cost, risk. or resource being used nor any particular pathing you have to worry about or plan.
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The only things I want are my killer/survivor inventory (perks, add-ons, bloodweb progress, ect.) and the exclusive cosmetics. I can rebuy the DLC, I can rebuy the non-exclusive cosmetics.
A lot of people just don't want to grind all over again considering how long it takes and there's things they literally can't get again.
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@meatisadelicacy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2348547#Comment_2348547
Look at it this way though - it fails constantly. Literally constantly. I have game after game after game where I'm not once able to use it because I'm exhausted on the ground. I don't care that killers don't like it being used for distance when it does not work more than half of the time.
What killers perks just regularly do not work? I'm not a killer main so I don't know. I can't imagine if BBQ didn't work as often as DH fails. Killers would lost their minds.
You wont be exhausted on the ground if you use it for distance. So that doesn't excuse the DH for distance portion which is what people have a problem with.
You're saying because DH to doge has some issues DH for distance is fine when they're two different use cases with different problems, a.k.a. you're making a strawman argument.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2348606#Comment_2348606
It rewards good play because the survivor is playing with the intention of using Dead Hard.
Like a person who waits for the killer to get close before Sprint Bursting away is playing with the intention of using Sprint Burst.
0 counter play? You can bait it out. I swear there's a lot of really low level killers in here.
Ah yes let me bait out DH for distance.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2346453#Comment_2346453
I did the drawing. (Check my profile for more : D)
No indication when she phase aside. The speed of phase with hearing and scratch mark aside. Its the post phase speed burst then continue on chase with 110% without any fatigue is also why shes a problem.
Oh true. You missed a phase its fine, there's no fatigue and here's a speed boost rollover to help you catch them.
Kinda makes me sad because I like her concept, but the execution needs work.
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@C3Tooth said:
I will throw this in every Spirit post
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/24MW70D9U5PF/image.png
Stridor should not be nerfed just because Spirit. Its only change you're safe if you have IronWill vs Spirit, other wise there is nothing change. There are alot of way to change Spirit to have counter play, or at least increase window for Survivor to actually mind game back.
Who drew that and do they have more?
Yeah she still has a lot of issues, her speed being a big one. You don't have the time to walk or crouch away because she goes so fast to where you are/were.
I don't think giving her a phase indicator alone will fix her personally. Everyone else thought removing her collision would fix her, then they did and it barely did anything.
Just because you know she's phasing doesn't change the "What are you going to do about it" problem. She's fast, she hears you, she has a trail leading to you. As long as all 3 of those things remain true simultaneously I don't think she can get fair counterplay.
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I think it should be balanced for above average but not the top. Hopefully leads to the best middle ground for both parties. So Survivors and Spirit and Nurse would have to be changed.
Where players are good-great but not amazing-comp level.
So like 35% away from the top or something.
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@shyguyy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2327186#Comment_2327186
Ok. You missed the point/joke.
Sarcasm doesn't translate over text on the internet well unless you make it obvious. It seemed like you were just agreeing with someone and fluffing them up. Hearing "killers always need to put us down" and someone (survivor main) genuinely agreeing isn't unheard of, so for all I knew you were just one of those people.
That's why a lot of people adopt the "/s" or make it blatantly obvious using words like "totally" which are commonly associated with sarcasm. Kind of like when I responded to "This entire forum is a killer main support group" and said "yeah totally" while posting a picture clearly working against that point in this thread.
"More true words have never been spoken" is generally not seen as sarcastic afaik. Its usually used for big agreement energy.
In any case, yeah it didn't come across well. It got cleared up and we can move forward.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2327751#Comment_2327751
Nah, there's at least two other people in his topic, including myself, who absolutely agree.
All Hex perks need to scale with the number of totems, to stop them being all-or-nothing. When there's already so much RNG involved, being screwed over by a single totem placement (survivor or killer) can be a real kick in the nuts.
"All Hex perks need to scale with the number of totems"
I wouldn't be against this. Give survivors a reason to do totems more, stops my perk from being worthless 20 seconds in.
Although imo NoED is "fine" from a balance perspective, survivors have more than enough time to do the totems. Speaking from my own experience.
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@MadLordJack said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2327574#Comment_2327574
The reason survivors don't do totems is because there's absolutely no reason to and absolutely no matter what totems will always be too much for any team with solo players due to their inherently hidden design. If the Devs want to add a secondary objective, the only way totems will come into play is if the gate switches are locked until all 5 are gone, which would make escaping as a solo survivor borderline impossible.
I cleanse totems fine in my solo games. Actually when I'm solo I specifically run small game just so I can be the more efficient with it because I assume my 3 teammates will be too lazy to do totems.
"Ok going to the next gen, let me spin my camera here rq thats a common totem spot. Oh theres one there."
If NoED still procs its usually the last totem because I did the other 3-4. My 3 teammates couldn't do 1-2 totem(s) between them. The best part? its usually right next to a gen they did and they decided to ignore it. I didn't go there to check earlier because the gen was already done.
"no reason to do totems"
- Bloodpoints
- NoED
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2327676#Comment_2327676
That's only half as bad as saying "play civilization" but still pretty bad. It also doesn't address my point.
I mean I don't like it either.
Idk what you mean by "it doesn't address my point." If I understand correctly you're asking what can the other killers do. The answer is "not much unless the survivors are bad or mess up" like I said.
Map design is on their side, objective time is on their side, ease of play is on their side. Without using the top tier killers you won't do very well against a survivor team without a weak link. Most of the killer roster rely on a weak link or mistake to do much. Then you have to find said link in a timely manner. If that doesn't happen you just lose.
So you can pick Spirit, Nurse ect. or play survivor instead. Otherwise you will be under the thumb of "How good the survivors are determine how good this match can potentially go for me." They're all decent? Well GG I guess.
Imo part of the problem is its pretty easy to be "decent", a lot of people are just bad at survivor.
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Play survivor instead.
Honestly there's not much the other killers can do about it with the current gen speeds. Hope the survivors are bad or royaly mess up. If not GG I guess.
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Everyone's friends are more likely to be on during an event and for longer so toxic swf team amount go up. Killer get fed up and slap on their strongest builds so toxic killer behavior go up.
"us vs them" mentality comes out in full force as well.
This happens during every event sadly. But there's not much to do but try and get people not to do it (good luck). Hope things get better.
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During events I usually play way more killer that usually to let the survivors have an easier time since I have complete control over how my side behaves.
But I'm not going to deal with console problems so -1 "nice" event killer I guess.
Sorry you guys are having problems but this happens during every event.
Some people don't care and just want to play. IIRC last time this event ran there were a ton of players complaining "I don't care about your crowns or bloodpoints I just want a normal game! Stop looking for crowns and farming!"
Some people go out of their way to be a jerk especially during an event and especially if it hurts the other side. Survivors going out of their way to sabo killer's event hooks was a big thing and led to the devs having to make the event hooks unable to be sabo'd. Survivors suiciding on hook after getting what they want in the Halloween event led to the "escape" clause of the crowns.
Some are too stuck on the "us vs them" and just see an opportunity to make the other side extra unhappy and jump on it.
Not to mention everyone's friends are more likely to be on during the event so its toxic SWF city. Killers get fed up and slap on their strongest build and that's when you get the solo groups (a classic scenario in DBD).
It really is just up to the players in the match how things go, I hope you guys get better luck moving forward.
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IIRC last time during this event, there were a decent chunk of people complaining because "I want normal games I don't care about your crowns and bloodpoints! Stop trying to farm or look for crowns I'm trying to play!"
Some peopel want to be jerks especially during an event and especially when it hurts the other side. "us vs them" strikes again.
It really is just up to the players in that match what happens.
I usually play way more killer than usual to let the survivors have an easier time during these events since I have complete control over my side, but I'm not playing right now with the way console is preforming so not this time I guess.
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@MarcoPoloYolo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2326754#Comment_2326754
Well, that's dumb, as the lack of information goes both ways. Ever have someone with the same character and you loose track of the health states? You can accidently get people out of the game quicker as well. There's 2 other reason why that's flawed logic.
- If you're actually tunneling someone, you're not loosing track of the hook states, because you're going after one guy. You only loose track of hook states if you hook more than one survivor. From then on, prioritizing someone that happens to be death hook over someone that isn't if you run into 2 survivors is simply not throwing the game, not tunneling. BHVR can't, simply can't refuse to balance the game around 12 hooks, but withhold info from killers in an attempt to force a 12 hook game. Even the people that think that the kill balance is an ok state know that the game is poorly balanced for the 12 hooks.
- Not knowing who's on death hook can make endgame plays more difficult. There's no reason for survivors to risk staying for someone on death hook, so in that scenario, you actively want to put someone not on death hook on a hook to entice the survivors for a greedy save. Guess what a lack of info on hook states does?
Yes! But BHVR doesn't know their own game enough to realize these obvious flaws or don't care enough/don't want to put in the work.
Unfortunate.
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I mean I understand your frustration but
- There's people who want to play normally and don't care about the event
- Some people don't care about BP, especially while in the match
"BHVR's poor condition to get crowns as survivor."
Actually that condition is only there because when it wasn't (in the Halloween event) survivors just got their stuff and suicided to move on to the next match and screwed over everyone else in the trial (especially the killer because of their condition to get hooks for that event). So you can thank survivors being dirt bags for that one.
I wouldn't know how else to make survivors stay the whole match then require them to do the thing that happens at the end. I guess you can change it to EGC to loosen it a bit but that won't help people getting camped and tunneled and die before that even happens..
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@shyguyy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2324430#Comment_2324430
I couldn't care less about the event cosmetics. His words are always true.
OP: "why is it like this?"
Person: "Killers need it to be or they'll complain."
Actual reason: "No actually it was because of bad survivor behavior"
You: "His words are always true."
I mean he's literally wrong but sure lol
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@RoboMojo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2324425#Comment_2324425
May I please have a link to that poll? I'm not saying it's fake, I just want to see when it was posted.
I can't find that particular one but I can give you 4 others that say the same story: the majority play both sides and the "mains" are pretty close on both sides. This forum is in no way a "killer support group" or full of mainly killer mains, I haven't seen a single one that supports that claim.
Most Recent:
- https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/228420/survivor-main-or-killer-main
- https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/229053/are-you-a-killer-main
Older:
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@van9684 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/262362/this-event-is-extremely-unfair
Killers need special accommodations or they flood these forums to complain and bully others.
@shyguyy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2323704#Comment_2323704
More true words have never been spoken.
Actually the problem OP is talking about was caused by survivors suiciding as soon as they got whatever they needed for the event during the Halloween serum even a long time ago ruining the game for the people left in it. So to prevent that happening again they made survivors need to escape since that was what they came up with to make players stay for the whole match. The killer is already forced to stay the whole match so its not needed for them.
So if they just needed to grab the crown and that's it then people would just get the crown, and get downed on purpose just to suicided.
So while you're blaming killers the problem actually came from survivors being dirt bags 🙂
Just another case of survivors causing their own problems and somehow finding a way to blame killers I guess.
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@van9684 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2323713#Comment_2323713
pot meet kettle. This entire forum is a killer main support group. Who are you kidding?
Yeah totally.
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I'd say legion.
Trickster has something at least being able to shoot over short wall loops and out in the open or with Main Event if you get lucky.
Legion does nothing and arguably hinders himself if survivors spread out, which it what they should be doing anyway.
So in any game with decent survivors Legion will effectively have no power, except to maybe hinder himself with a 4 second stun just to get a hit slightly faster.
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"The two of them just battle it out till the rest of survivors finish the gens."
Yeah because gens fly by in a game with decent survivors. If you want the killer to do a true 4v1 they need the actual time to do that.
If in 1 kill all the gens are done, while tunneling to get a kill asap, what makes you think they'll be able to go after 3 more?
It's not a "win" its just all they had time for.
I understand the frustration. There's plenty of survivor games for me where I don't really interact with the killer because in 1 chase 3 gens got done, 2-3 more and the gates are powered. So essentially waited in a long que just to hold M1 for a few minuets and maybe get some saves.
But unless survivors are planning to slow down their gen times or killer's willing to throw I'm not sure what you want to happen.
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"second chance perks that can cover the user's mistakes"
I believe that mostly applies to dead hard, NoED doesn't really cover your mistake. Its not like "oh I misplayed but NoED made that hit." the same way DH is "oh I misplayed press E to erase that mistake". But those are just small details and labels, the main point is they should both be changed.
Both have to be changed for different reasons.
DH is very strong and has no counterplay if used for distance as well as being a really unhealthy perk. You can also use it multiple times for the entire match and there can be multiple active in a match.
NoED isn't very strong, it only comes into effect at the end of the game and only gets you 1 down if the survivors are decent. Killer has to play the match 1 perk down and it's easily countered. However, it feels really bad to be the survivor on the receiving end similar to Myers just popping up on you and "Boom exposed and downed". It can feel bad for both sides.
One is really strong and unhealthy, and the other is weak/mediocre and unhealthy. Both are unhealthy and should be changed or reworked to make them more healthy and balanced.
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@Zarathos said:
I mentioned this before going to say it again. Give killer an og green mori upon hooking 4 unique survivours. Give survivors a bosted heal and repair skill dependant on the number of dead survivors.
Were two fold hurting tunneling. We have an incentive to spread out hooks. Pushing to tunnel out a survivor will boost the repair/heal speed of other survivours. Rather then implement this immeidiatly run an experiment or an alternative game mode to test it. This allpws fir adjusting the requirements to earn mori of increase/decrease the increased repair/heal speeds.
I see the thinking behind this idea, but I already see some problems. 4 hooks for 1 death is still worse than 3 hooks for 1 death, especially if that survivor is injured since you already hooked them. So tunneling would most likely still be a better option.
Repair speeds are also already too fast with the current game environment, so speeding them up in any way is not something we should really be looking at imo unless we're going to also speed up the killer objective significantly, and probably relatively more than the gen increase. As stated, this purposed method is still slower than current tunneling.
Even reducing the requirement to 3 hooks would still leave the benefit of tunneling that the survivor might still be injured cutting out half the chase as well as not having to look as hard for said survivor.
I don't think this idea can really work with mori's being the tuning valve in a healthy way.
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@Tizzle said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2320314#Comment_2320314
Let me get this straight.
You expect the unhooker to just stand around in plain site in front of the hook waiting for the Killer to come back so they don't tunnel the person that was on the hook??????
Then if they don't it's their fault your chasing the recently unhooked, absolutely mind boggling.
I just run the other direction to leave scratch marks leading away from the injured person. As long as they walk away from the hook the killer should come after me and I got distance out of it.
Now in practice a lot of survivors seem to lack the sense to not leave a trail leading right to them while injured when I'm making one away from them. No, they expect the killer to just let them go for free and its somehow the killers fault and in no part due to their own bad play.
Like "oh I'm injured, better leave a trail right to me! How dare the killer follow it!"
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@Edgars_Raven said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2320159#Comment_2320159
This wouldnt help a thing. Want to bet i can hook that claud 12 times before you can finish gens? 😂 theres a reason shes being tunneled. Shes really bad in chase and any idiot can hold m1 on a gen. What you would end up with here is 2 survivors who are yiur worst runners eating up all your hook states very quickly, or being slugged. Dead is dead. If all four of you are slugged then i still win with 4 hooks.
The Claud cost you the game now as well. If the Claud dies at 5 gens you're most likely losing. You can't fix bad teammates. This would just work against camping a bit more and give the killer more of a reason to not stick around.
She's getting camped? Just don't save her. Killers who want to preform better will leave the hook.
The main point was to shift the priority from "get kills" to "get hooks" and incentivizing killers to leave the hook in favor of starting the next one. Why do they stick around and tunnel? It gets them the fastest progress to a kill. Take that away and then why stick around the Claud not chasing anyone for your next hook if it makes you no progress? You wouldn't.
Now if the survivors make a dumb play and unhook right in front of the killer yeah you'll get those hooks real quick, but that's on them for making a bad play.
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@vladspellbinder said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2320694#Comment_2320694
Right now the main problem with camping is lack of knowledge on the Survivor side, both about what is going on in the game as well as the proper counter to the action. When not in a SWF and without Kindred Survivors have no way of knowing the Killer is camping, so they will come in for the save. Even Kindred only helps a little if the Killer is running Insidious, because if you are not looking in that direction when the hook happens you'll miss their Aura disappearing without them walking away. SWF can just tell everyone to not bother because the Killer is camping.
The way you counter a camper is just do gens. Three Survivors without toolboxes or Prove Thyself can easily do four gens by the time that person on hook dies. Yes, it sucks for everyone involved and is not fun but anything else would just reward the camper for their crappy gameplay. New people don't understand this, so of course they are going to try and save and hover around the hook while the Killer stands there. Right now the best thing is just spreading the knowledge to just do gens against a camper. At most they'll get two kills if you don't feed them. And depending on the Killer, Survivor Perks and if you do have toolboxes and slash or Prove Thyself you can get all five gens AND save the camped person before they die. I've seen it happen as Survivor, when we all knew to just do gens and for the person on the hook to make the Struggle Phrase last as long as possible.
I agree that something needs to be done about camping and tunneling, but I don't think a communal hook pool is a good idea. But sadly I don't have any ideas of my own to offer. that I haven't already elsewhere. (Reverse Camaraderie: If there is no other Survivor within 16 metres of the hooked Survivor but the Killer IS within that distance the hook timer is paused. This at least stops face camping but doesn't do much for proxy camping. And it prevents the "loop the Killer around the hooked person" thing that was done in the past when being near the person on hook AT ALL stopped the timer AND prevents the "I'm not chasseing you if I walk backwards" loophole that tying it to being in chase would have.)
Yeah I agree with all that and that idea doesn't sound half bad on paper. 16 meters might be a little small though, I'd probably bump it up to 24 at least, but that can be fine tuned with testing and seeing how it plays out.
Although with no other changes this would just be punishing and nerfing killers, which is not something we need. The killer side needs to get something in return if you're going to weaken one of their tools while they're already generally the weaker role.
Something not only to push them in that direction, but to actually help them do so. That's why I proposed reducing the overall hook amount to compensate (not saying that's the only solution).
As for survivor communication issue, if we could get a simple communication wheel that would help I believe.
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@vladspellbinder said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2320159#Comment_2320159
The problem with a "Global Hook Pool" is it would just encourage tunneling of the weakest link. One Survivor can't loop you at all? Only go for them if they're off hook. And if their teammates wise up and just leave them on hook with no hook timer? Then that person isn't getting to play the game AND can't get better at looping so it doesn't happen next time AND the team is down a member so it'll be that much easier to snowball.
and the current system doesn't? In any hook system tunneling the weakest link will probably be a problem, this one at least mitigates it imo. Changing it to a shared pool wouldn't change much. But if the killer stick around to try and tunnel them the gens just get done. The current hook timer encourages tunneling more as they team has to come for them eventually or they just die, either way the killer profits just for sticking around.
The killer is encouraged to leave to get other hooks to actually progress rather than stand around for unlimited time. The only way they get tunneled is if the survivors pull off in front of the killer, which is a player problem. Yeah jerks will still tunnel but you cant really do anything about that.
The goal changes from "kill this person" to "get more hooks", thats a significant change I think.
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Points and rank are a good first step, but there also needs to be a substantial in game benefit to help with the actual match. That or a fundamental rework of the hook/death system.
Example: no more 3 hook = dead, survivor team in total has 8-10 hooks , once the killer get that amount everyone gets sacrificed via EGC entity if not on hook and normal animation if on hook, remove hook timers.
Killers are encouraged to go after other survivors and survivor get camped less and get to play the game more. Reducing hook amount to adjust for the fact there will always be 4 survivors.
But I heavily doubt that ever happening at all considering we cant even get a communication wheel in game to help with solos or just a functioning game.
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Just delay the whole thing imo. Splitting it will just make half of the event a pain, and half not assuming they actually fix the issues.
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Either break the 5 totems or break the one totem after it activates. If you suck at finding totems bring a map or perk for it, learn the spots, then take it off once you do if you don't want to run them anymore (you can still keep it for efficiency reasons).
Small game and Detectives Hunch work fine as well as the new Jill perk.
I haven't had a problem with NoED in a very long time, although I'm usually the dedicated totem hunter in my group since I know the spots fairly well. Learn the spots, its not hard to counter and the killer plays the vast majority of the game with one less perk.
The survivors have 16 perks between them, they can easily give up 1 for a totem perk to counter 1, potentially more, of the killers 4 perks.
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"SWF is fair and balanced"
"Trickster and Clown are unfair"
Okay so our options are, biased/ignorant survivor, inexperienced/low skill player, or bait.
These claims are kinda out there. Trickster and Clown are some of the weakest killers in the game and SWF gives a very large advantage at the cost of nothing (perk slots ect.), equivalent to having most if not all the info perks in the game on everyone at once in addition to the 16 perks the team has.
On the que time talk, my killer ques are generally very quick and my survivor ques take ages, its been that way for a long while now.
There are a lot of issues with the game being unplayable right now, so que times are going to get affected.
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@ShinobuSK said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2318364#Comment_2318364
Hm then maybe its just me, I have 500h in survivor and I am pretty decent, not great but not horrible.
And around 300h in killer and even after those hours I still feel so stressed out playing killer even if I win. But thats probably the price I will pay for more BP gain
Its not just you, I play both sides and I find survivor muuuch easier. The main problem is just when you get bad teammates.
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Pretty heavily geared towards survivors as long at they're decent. Out of the entire killer roster there's only like 4-5 that can stand a chance against a decent team.
Better than before, but still not good.
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Trickster at least has short wall loops going for him, Legion has pretty much nothing if survivors decide to have a brain and spread out.
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@DwarvenTavern said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2316593#Comment_2316593
I got a 4k... but I feel so dirty now.. The last kill was me forcing her to die to End Game Collapse cause there was no hooks near by
Not your fault, don't beat yourself up. You can't control hook spawns or where the survivor decides to run. She could have crawled to a hook if it was really bothering her.
If you enjoy playing the killer keep playing them, I personally can't play nurse because the camera slam and drunk wobble give me a headache halfway through the match. She's very strong, I wish you the best of luck in your future matches 👍️
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Alright, slap in another second chance for every survivor build, lookout boys, adrenaline is making a comeback.
Might work for killers since they can kinda use something to help them, but then we gotta worry about 5 perk Spirit. Like on someone like Legion? Alright sure maybe. On someone like Spirit? Nooooo. They also all might just slap in more slowdown as well.
I don't think it'll work. Maybe as a fun game mode or something yeah sure.
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I play both sides, js.
No, as others have said. I still notice a healthy amount of complaints from the survivor side. The forums seem pretty even to me, a little skewed to one side depending on the time or day.
Just it seems like, in my experience/opinion, survivor mains or at least the vocal ones (for example Sluzzy) kinda don't know what their talking about more often, which leads to them getting a lack of support more. Like saying BBQ needs to be nerfed or removed because it has no counterplay or totems are too hard to find.
Although tbf its easier to understand survivor gameplay as a killer than killer gameplay as a survivor. I think a lot of the survivor post you're speaking of that get no support are mostly from players who really just don't understand the killer side or the game well enough, so they make outlandish claims.
If you make a reasonable claim you'll generally get by fine. Like calling Spirit dumb? Yeah most people would agree with you. Complaining about Gens taking too long? Yeah no.
Killers are also generally accepted as the weaker role, so they have more concerns to voice. Its natural they would have a bit more post asking for changes. People generally don't ask for changes much when they're on the better end of things.
Then you got the whole "entitlement" issue adding into things, which is a whole other discussion.
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@Habaneropeppah said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2316366#Comment_2316366
See, that concept is a fundamental concern to my question. So I’m supposed to select a killer like Freddy and then have empathy and take it easy on the survivors so they don’t feel scared by one of the most terrifying horror characters of all time? Not trying to be salty, just don’t understand how a killer is suppose to be empathetic… Never seen Jason, Freddy, Michael, Leatherface be empathetic to characters.
Do survivors express empathy to the killer if they get all gens without being hooked, then sacrifice themselves and let the killer get them instead of escaping to make the killer feel good about their game experience?
Honestly, not trying to be salty, just trying to understand.
"Do survivors express empathy to the killer if they get all gens without being hooked, then sacrifice themselves and let the killer get them instead of escaping to make the killer feel good about their game experience?"
Nope. But its common for the survivors to get mad if you don't give the last survivor hatch for free or play "nice". I've heard of it supposedly happening from a few forum members but the majority have said a firm "nope", including me.
For context I don't tunnel or camp because I just don't enjoy it, and in the 3 years I have played this game, not a single survivor has ever done that in any of my bad games. But I sure got hatch on my survivor matches for free on a not too uncommon basis.
It really is just a big double standard in the community at large.
Its one of the main reason why the survivors have the stigma of being "entitled" and honestly in my experience yeah its the majority of the survivor population. People try to excuse it with "oh there's 4 survivors so they're 4 times more likely to be toxic" but its nowhere near 4 to 1, its much bigger on the survivor side. Among other excuses.
I can count of one hand the amount of times a killer has said anything after a match, but survivors? I lost count. I'm usually playing on console so I get less than the average PC player since console lacks post game chat, but they will still go out of their way to send a personal message.
To try and summarize the overall attitude, if its fun or favors the survivors its good, if its not its bad. Its fine for survivors to find fun in being toxic, but not the killers. There's just an overall survivor bias, and it really doesn't help that there are way more survivor players than killer players, so they usually have the backing of the hive mind behind them as well as their team as well and on top of that the devs usually catering to their side more (not exclusively, just noticeably more).
Example : Someone DC's or sacrifices themselves, I've had survivors get upset at the killer much more often for not throwing the match for them, rather than get upset at the person who DC'd.
Example: When the devs reworked the survivor animations they said in their big announcement video "don't worry you can still T-bag". If they would have said "don't worry you can still hit survivors on hooks" I don't think it would have gone over nearly as well. On a side not the devs really shouldn't be promoting or supporting toxicity.
Its been cultivated over the years of the game.
Like its been said, survivors T-bagging and waiting at the gate? yeah thats fine. Spamming a vault to get the killer to come over just to T-bag? yeah thats fine. Killer hits someone on hook? Killer doesn't give last survivor hatch? "omg toxic killer, horrible human being".
It really is just generally allowed for survivors but not for killers because of double standards/entitlement being allowed and even pushed in the survivor side of the community. It sucks and its not all of the survivors, but its definitely the majority unfortunately once you get out of beginner ranks.
It also just cultivates the "us vs them" mentality on both sides. I really wish both sides would just accept that both sides shouldn't be toxic and that shouldn't be allowed, or at the least allow both sides to be toxic evenly.
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You right, fixed it thanks.
@Damarus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2299265#Comment_2299265
I didn't, but was planning to do so
Well, I hope they extend it for you and everyone else. If not at least you saved some money rather than use it on a faulty product.
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If you bought the rift they already have your money. I would recommend not buying it until you know the patch is playable to a satisfactory level. You can always buy the tome after and get all your stuff for the levels you reached.
In either case, yeah I agree they should extend it.
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They tested that not too long ago and shack became an infinite if you got a certain version of it spawn, just as one example. There were also s decent number of "technically not an infinite but might as well be" things found in the game. Things like just running straight through halls on Midwitch for example where sure eventually you would catch them, but you'd waste so much time you'd lose the game and all they did was hold W.
The map design is not ready for it and it doesn't seem like it will be anytime soon imo.
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@Beelzeboop said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2286268#Comment_2286268
Other than ranged killers.
Maybe the windows couldn't be vaulted through even after they're broken, essentially becoming a breakable half-wall, giving LoS but still restricting movement.
Ranged killers are still better with no window rather than a window.
A half wall could work as the killer could shoot over it but he survivor couldn't really use it to their advantage sure.
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@UncleStabby said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2286237#Comment_2286237
Like I said, breakable window would be there for killers who can use them, i.e. huntress, DS, Trickster etc
But it would be better for all those killers to just not have a window there and just have the survivor with no options. Those killers can deal with windows better than others, that doesn't mean windows are better for them than not having one there.
That's one of the reasons why they're stronger in the open than at a window.
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@Beelzeboop said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2286237#Comment_2286237
Breakable walls are also survivor sided. What I mean is some windows being blocked off until the killer breaks them.
And I said "properly implemented."
Yeah they are I agree they are survivor sided currently.
Breakable walls are walls that you break, so breakable windows are windows that you break down, otherwise they wouldn't be windows before you break them so they wouldn't be called breakable windows.
If you mean breakable walls that turn into windows that's different.
But in that case killers would just never break them to give the survivors a free window.
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@Beelzeboop said:
I mean, breakable windows seem like they could be cool if properly implemented.
That's all I can really say is a good idea here.
Wouldn't those just be survivor sided breakable walls since its only detrimental for the killer? Like, when would it ever be beneficial for a killer to leave the window there. They all would just be essentially pre-dropped god pallets like some of the current walls are.
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As others have said there should be more to incentivize not tunneling and camping. Although admittedly that's going to be pretty hard. It'd the equivalent of giving survivors a reason not to finish a gen and instead go work on another one that's at 0%.
Additionally, if part of the concern is the person on the receiving end not getting their fair share for their contribution of taking up the killers time, I suggest we should rate the survivors as a team and not individually. So even if you're getting camped/tunneled you would earn points by your teammates doing things with the time you're giving them. Would incentivize people not to sacrifice themselves when camped as well.
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@Jallybwan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2281211#Comment_2281211
You kinda just ignored everything I said, mate. Billy's power has limitations. It's called survivors not being out of position, and debris existing on pretty much every map that isn't Rotten Fields. He doesn't need Overheat as another limitation when it's already difficult enough to land a good flick, and most people would agree that chase is the most important thing in DBD - it's where most of the fun stuff happens. Realistically, a Billy can't make it across the entire map in one sprint without steering addons because of all the tiles in the way. And flickbilly is ridiculously hard to pull off consistently.
For what I consider "perfectly balanced" - a killer whose power scales enough with skill to be able to take out anyone the player is more skilled than, while survivors who are more skilled than the killer can reliably win against them. Old Billy was the closest example to this we had before he got nerfed. (Source: QuixoticGreen vs Marth's Depip Squad; he put on crack billy and came out with a 2k. Quix was probably the best Billy around, and he was using crack billy.)
I think if all killers were Huntress tier, we'd lose the player base. Huntress is good, but she relies on survivors ######### up to score consistent hatchet hits (i.e. putting themselves in positions where she can hit them in the first place). Don't get me wrong, I think Huntress is fine since most of the playerbase can't do that, but old Billy was a better example of perfect balance imo. His power scaled perfectly with skill, aside from a few bullshit addons like instasaw. I do see why you'd be fine with killers being balanced around Huntress, though - this game's comp scene is kind of a joke, so with the exception of the occasional sweaty comp team, Huntress-tier killers would perform just fine. I'm more concerned with how interactive killers are to play as and against, though, and I think Billy has much more interactiveness against a good team than Huntress does.
I'm glad you agree they went way too far. I do think simply removing Overheat would be completely fine, but for discussion's sake, what would you compensate this with? My perfect Billy consists of this:
- No overheat.
- Current tuned carburetor; if you want more charge time then you should be forced to use your chainsaw more (since you're 4.4 m/s).
- Both engravings basekit - both speed and charge time. The higher speed makes flicking much more viable, while the longer charge time makes backrevving harder (because backrevving doesn't require too much skill, at least in my experience). This means that Billy players are forced to flick more often, which counteracts the fact that his chainsaw is so versatile - it's one of the hardest things to master in the game.
- Pre-nerf animations as well. I didn't play Billy too much before his nerf, but according to some long-time Billy mains I know, he used to feel so much better to play.
Your next point, about Billy missing so much, is kinda my exact point. As I've said - we want newer/worse Billies to use his chainsaw more often, not resort to W+M1 out of necessity. His cooldown provides enough time to vault a pallet, window, etc. or even just make distance (and the saw is easy to dodge if he's coming from a distance). In my opinion, Overheat is just far too restrictive, and it doesn't allow new Billies to get as much practice in as they should.
As for Nurse, imo, the reason most people don't hate Nurse too much is because the skill you need for her to be truly uncounterable just doesn't exist. I'll again point to SupaAlf as an example of this - he's a ######### CRACKED nurse, and in his videos you still often see him getting the ######### juked out of him. Flickbilly is similar; his chainsaw is ridiculously strong in theory, but in practice, nobody exists who is skilled enough to the point where you can never dodge his saw. Therefore, I believe Flickbilly is balanced at all tiers of gameplay; from new players (Billies getting their ######### kicked in as they learn to control his saw) to good players (Being able to curve well enough to have a fun and interactive chase with most survivors) to high-tier competitive players (Probably losing due to good coordination, but putting up one hell of a fight and getting some sick curves in anyway).
That was a bit of a tangent, but I actually agree with you for the most part. I think we should balance around old Billy, not Nurse or Spirit. Bear in mind, I think Nurse has more potential than Spirit, but Spirit is better in practice because there truly is no valid counterplay to her like there is to all the Nurses who currently exist. Also, a good Nurse and a good Spirit aren't interactive for the survivors at all, so I think we should avoid designs like those that give survivors no counterplay. That's why I think old Billy was the epitome of balance, along with most of the rest of the community. His power was incredibly strong, but survivors were still able to counterplay it, and it took an extremely respectable amount of skill to master.
Billy's chainsaw's limitations consisted of debris in the way and the fact that, when flicking, he had to choose how hard to flick. Essentially, he had to predict where exactly the survivor would be as he released the flick - would they peel away from the loop to try and dodge, would they call his bluff and stick closely to the loop? From the survivor's side, is the Billy close enough to hit me before I can make it around this corner? That's what I mean by "interactive". There's a lot of split-second decision making and prediction that, ultimately, is what we should aim for in a chase. It was totally possible to make a Billy whiff his saw long enough to get all the gens done, even if the Billy was really good.
I see camping as less of a balance issue and more of a fun issue. I think killer powers should be structured to incentivize them to not camp, so neutering Billy's ability to just sit there with his saw 99'd would be a good example of a healthy change. That's what Overheat should be, imho - and hey, that'd be another limitation to his power. He can't use it to camp effectively. So you're right; we shouldn't remove Overheat entirely. But we should make its sole purpose to counter camping. We can do this by making his heat buildup disappear completely and immediately whenever he initiates a saw dash, since then you're not just sitting there with it 99'd anymore.
Thanks for having a civil discussion with me! It's a nice change from how balance discussions usually go in this community.
Those sounds like fine changes to me. If you're gonna make his power stronger again, make him use it to get hit at least. See how it goes adjust from there if needed. Give him some better add-ons, not stuff like Black Grease.
So everything after this will mainly be about trying to wrap up the side points that were brought up since we came to a middle ground understanding on the main topic, somehow, on the internet, let alone the forums lol. So thank you as well for having a civil discussion, that only work if both sides participate.
As for the Nurse/power level point, its not about being uncounterable to the highest level of play. In fact I don't like balancing for the highest level of play at all since that's a very small fraction of the playerbase, so I believe there we just don't agree on what skill level the game should be centered around which is fine. I think games should be balanced around where players are good/great, but not depip squad/god nurse good as I feel that would be the best ground for most of the playerbase to be be the best state overall. So your assessment of me wanting killers around Huntress tier, or a little stronger honestly, is pretty much spot on.
Right now I feel like the game is balanced around potato survivors (no offense to those players) but good killers. Not good killers and good survivors. However I don't want top tier balance either as that just makes the game unfun for everyone whose not in the 1-5%.
However, I do understand your point of effectiveness scaling with skill and investment in and can understand how that can be frustrating to deal with, especially since that most of the current killer roster.
Yeah I agree camping is more of a fun issue and pushing killers not to is something I'm on board with.
@Jallybwan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2281249#Comment_2281249
Billy is... okay. There's just really no reason to play him now that Oni and Blight exist.
I feel like you're coming at this from a fundamentally different point of view; that if a killer uses their power a lot, they shouldn't be able to use their power anymore. Overheat basically reduces Billy to a 115 M1 killer for the duration it takes to cool off - a trapless Trapper, if you will. My question is this; how is that fun or interactive for anyone? His saw is pretty damn fun if you use it at loops, and quite frankly, I think most people agree the chase is the most fun part of DBD. Mobility is related to the 1v4, but the 1v1 is where the fun stuff happens for the most part.
As for the second part, I think you've fundamentally misunderstood why Billy players just dropped off the map. It's because, compared to how he was before, he feels ridiculously clunky to play. So nobody plays Billy; they've just moved on to Blight and Oni because those killers just do his job but better - and they feel better to play, too. He doesn't have a reason to exist anymore. That's why nobody plays him. It's not about strength at all.
Also, for the record, a good Billy wasn't "too strong" in the slightest. I linked Quix's match against the Depip Squad earlier - I'd say that the players are roughly evenly skilled - and he came out with a 2k while using Billy's strongest addons back then.
Yeah I agree Blight and Oni kinda stomp all over his territory, but killer powers being too similar is also an issue there. Like we got Billy, and we got Yokai Billy (Oni), but only temporarily sometimes if he hits you. Oversimplifying but I think you'll get the idea.
It's not about a killer using their power a lot that I'm against necessarily, it just depends on the power. Like I think Pyramid Head should be using his power more in general and not just doing the "you're animation locked" tactic all the time but its just not viable to do so most of the time because of multiple factors that aren't the point of this thread. So I can actually relate to the feeling. Its just getting it to a point where using it a lot isn't going overboard. There needs to be decent downtime in between, especially with a 1-hit down with crazy mobility. Like we don't want Legion/Ghostface levels of cooldown, those are way too much, but I also don't want "haha one-shot pallet breaker that can hit around corners and cross the map go Brrrr" back.
But again, your changes lined previously sound fine, the increased charge time would help in that regard. I really though he was just a little overboard before, so pulling him back a bit compared to before with different changes would be ideal in my opinion.
I can understand not playing a killer due to "feel", so if we can get him feeling better that sounds like a win in my book.
As for the final line, maybe at the highest yeah he was fine, but that's not what I aim for or look to for balancing. Again I think there we just disagree on where the game should be balanced around. I just think baseline the chainsaw did just a bit too much for how much he was using it in a game with just decent - good players. Like it scaled well into top tier play, but any lower than that is where things got funky. At least in my experience.
I can understand the Hillbilly plight a bit more now I think. Again, thank you as well for keeping things respectful and carrying out a civil discussion. 🙂
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@ALostPuppy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2275730#Comment_2275730
So really, you should be having the same issues with Billy now, because a good Billy hasn't changed and he'll still be on top of you almost no matter what. Why is he suddenly fine now that Billy can't "spam" his power, when that didn't matter to good players (the ones you don't like playing against), and also didn't matter to bad players because if they were "spamming" the saw they weren't getting anything done and it's not hard at all to play around a bad killer.
I still consider him pretty strong, I don't think he's weak or anything and you lined it out pretty well. A good Billy still preforms well, its just not as oppressive as before. He can't be all over everyone the entire match. He can't always be "on top of you no matter what" because he has to worry about his overheat. He can't sprint to an unhook, miss 2 chainsaws, land the 3rd, then sprint to a gen and miss 1 and get the 2nd, then sprint to where they downed the 1st person like before. I think that's a good change.
Also I don't know why you think I didn't like good players, good players are the thing we use to see how things preform, a good Billy before was too strong. A good Billy is pretty strong today, like you said.
With old Billy you had to miss a lot for it to really hinder your performance enough for it to really matter. One-shots save a ton of time, then he also saved a ton of time with map traversal. You had to miss enough to outweigh the one-shots and the mobility.
He just needs a little bump up (honestly I would improve his add-ons) and for people to get over the nerf and play him more. Its similar to what happened with Nurse, they took away triple blink and she vanished. They took away instasaw spam and people just dropped him.
Are these killers bad now? No. They just got a a little harder to play.