MrPenguin
MrPenguin
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@Gylfie said:
Reviving my own thread to add that the iridescent addon that hides the box aura until the chain hunt begins is the pinnacle of unfun.
I ran all around the map trying to find the box but no luck. The chain hunt started, so I saw the box and picked it up, but because the chains were already spawning I straight up couldn't solve it without getting interrupted constantly. This gave the Pinhead plenty of time to simply walk up to me and slap it out of my hands with Franklin's, starting the entire process of unfunnery again.
Lovely design.
"but because the chains were already spawning I straight up couldn't solve it without getting interrupted constantly."
I'm seeing a lot of players say this because they don't understand how the power works. Of course you're going to struggle if you don't know how the power works and make mistakes due to the lack of knowledge.
There's a delay in-between chain spawns and new ones can't spawn once you start solving the box. The only way for it to interrupt you is if it spawns right before you start solving as there's also a delay before it shoots from the portal.
When you want to solve the box make sure you dodge the next chain first then start solving as soon as you dodge it. Getting hit does not stop the spawn timer for the next chain afaik, so if you do get hit by a chain, break it and the follow-up chains, dodge the next chain, then solve.
Do not solve immediately upon pickup or spam solve, wait for the dodge.
The box, and by extension the chain hunt, is actually very easy to solve if Pinhead himself doesn't stop you. Hence why Hoarder became a popular perk for him in the first place.
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Killers were already on a time crunch so I don't know why we're giving an additional objective to them. I don't agree with boon totems in concept as killers don't have time to deal with it in the current game state, but even beyond that there are problems.
Even if the killer does deal with it, it's not destroyed nor does the perk get disabled so the survivor can just plop it down again.
On top of that the perk effects are very very strong and AoE. Double healing speed and self heal unlock? No scratch marks or auras? Wat.
And then there's potentially 4 of these things on the map at any given time. Even just 1 in the main structure would be strong on a lot of maps, but 4?
Imagine a game on an indoor map like Lery's or a main building like the Asylum with no scratch marks, oof.
Totems are usually near gens so BBQ just got another counter if shadow step is anywhere near used frequently.
I'm just gonna continue my hiatus from playing killer thanks.
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Its just PTB so hard to say how strong once it hits live, but she seems fine. The big thing right now seems to be her speed as even if the survivors known roughly where you are you're still moving at 176%.
The ptb just hit its going to take a bit for things to settle.
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@Shooby said:
I think something along the lines of "Nerf Syndrome" needs to be coined. This goes for literally any video game. Something gets nerfed, gamers freak out, and proceed to stop using the nerfed item/perk/character. A short amount of time passes, and people realize the nerf's effectiveness was vastly blown out of proportion...
Yeah exactly I've been saying the same thing for years now. It doesn't matter how small the nerf people will say the thing is dead now.
Remember DS? Remember how it wasn't seen for like 2-3 weeks? Then where'd it end up? Still in the meta build.
Remember the Nurse changes and everyone yelling she would be unplayable? Where'd she end up? Still the best killer in the game.
Remember Spirit with collision and no vault animation? Remember how people said removing those would kill her? Where'd she end up? Barely affected.
People just go "It got nerfed so it must be bad now".
Nerf Syndrome too strong, pls nerf.
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@botrax said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2514756#Comment_2514756
Instead of having a fatigue she have a cooldown and if im not mistaken its 15 second
She's not Legion or Ghostface where no matter what you get the full cooldown. The strongest spirit playstyle is short burst, which also gives her a pretty short CD of only a few seconds in most cases.
You should rarely have the full CD and there's also add-ons.
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Spirit still moves at 176% base line, has no fatigue, and has the post phase speed boost. You also aren't always going to have LOS on her footsteps. She'll probably be fine imo, but we'll have to see.
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Spirit still moves at 176% base line, has no fatigue, and has the post phase speed boost. You also aren't always going to have LOS on her footsteps. She'll probably be fine imo, but we'll have to see.
As for Iron will yeah that perk is dumb.
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"now I can't confuse her when she phases to throw her off now because I can hear where she is in phase"
Wat? Knowing where she is now mean you can't confuse her? Making no sense.
She still moves at 176% base line and has no fatigue or anything when coming out to hit as well as a post phase speed boost, you don't have LOS all the time either. I think she'll still be fine. We'll have to wait and see, but it sounds fine to me.
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Haddonfield on Survivor Lane. Best place to walk my dog. Hard to find such a safe neighborhood with all these crazy people running around lately.
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@xenotimebong said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2511429#Comment_2511429
Killer skill absolutely matters. And if the survivors are just good, not great, then a skilled killer will get more than a 0k. Not sure why you think middling survivors against an experienced killer would mean no kills.
I’m still wondering how you’d go about nerfing survivor teamwork without just flat out nerfing survivors in general btw. Unless you do just want to significantly nerf all survivors across the board, in which case we fundamentally disagree so there’s no point in continuing to discuss it.
Killer skill does matter, but it doesn't matter anywhere near as much as the survivors. As I already said, it doesn't matter much. I didn't say it doesn't matter at all.
You're changing it from equal experience to Good vs Great/skilled and Middling vs Experienced. I never said a significantly better killer will get a 0k, so there's no reason for you to think that. I specifically said "good vs good" when I brought up the 0-1k point. Equal skill levels.
An equally skilled killer to the survivors is at a very big disadvantage in the vast majority of cases, that's a problem. Not a better killer. If both sides are equal than the match should be equal, but its not, its survivor favored as we know.
In terms of changes, buff killers and/or nerf other aspects like objective time (such as introducing a second objective or something as simple as gen time increase ect.), not outright nerfing "teamwork". You can give the survivors baseline communication via call out wheel or w.e. as a QOL buffs for solo, but the power when survivors do have a clue of what to do is too high. That's now without changes to help them out even more.
If equal vs equal means the survivors win a lot more often, then there's a balance problem that needs to be addressed. Killers need to be buffed or survivors need to be nerfed.
Survivors need to be generally balanced out in some way because right now they're too strong. If you fundamentally disagree then you're disagreeing that the game should be balanced, and then yeah there's no point discussing it because you want unbalanced survivor favored games and I want balanced ones.
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A few months, probably 4-5, I was just tired of dealing with the problems of playing killer. When I did come back and saw things weren't much, if any, better I went from a 50/50 player to like 90/10 favoring survivor.
Still like that till this day but I play less because killer still isn't near good and survivor gets boring very quickly for me these days.
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@xenotimebong said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2511307#Comment_2511307
Because the survivors’ ability to work as a team is part of their win condition. Like I said before, if there’s one weak link on the survivor team it can lose them the game. You can’t realistically have the game balanced so that poor survivor teamwork means they die but good survivor teamwork means very little.
I’ve gone against survivors in the past who had more skill than me, but they died because of a less skilled teammate throwing. If that’s fair because survivors are a team, then good teamwork also gets rewarded.
The problem is that all 4 survivors just being good has way too much of an impact. Good teamwork should be rewarded but it shouldn't put all the killers besides 3-4 in an unwinnable situation as often as it does, especially if the killer player is also just as skilled.
Its not that good survivor teamwork should mean little, is that right now it swings things way too much to the point the killer's skill doesn't matter much.
Survivors have their win condition and killers have theirs, they should even out. Right now the only thing that really matters is how good the survivors are, the killers don't really have too much agency and that's a problem.
If you have a good killer you should need better than good teamwork on the survivors side to beat them, so great teamwork. If its just good it should be a even split.
Good vs good should be a 2k, but right now its a 0-1k. Not asking for a 4k, just balanced. Survivor skill should not matter more than killer skill, they should be equal. Teamwork is part of that skillset. So if 1 of your teammates is a 2 and the killer is a 4, then yeah the killer should win.
If the 4 survivors don't equal the killer than the survivors shouldn't win.
Teamwork is part the win condition, yes poor teamwork should mean they lose because they failed the win condition. That's the nature of any team based game. But the question now is what's the killers win condition if the survivors are good? Because as it stands its: Hope the survivors are bad.
We shouldn't balance around bad teams, then its just unfair playing killer because even if you're at the same level as your opponents you'll still lose way more often.
If you don't like chancing on your teammates, then a team based game with random people isn't what you should be doing, you should get a group or play the solo role (killer). Also SBMM should be fixing that issue. We shouldn't throw balance concerns out the window because a teammate might be bad.
Balance wise, 4 survivors = 1 killer is how it should be since that's 1 team = 1 team, that's balanced. Not 1 team > 1 team, that unbalanced.
Asking for your teammates to not weigh you down in a team based game is asking for imbalance. You are not equal to the killer, you are 1/4 of the killer and so are your teammates. That's how it should be at least. I don't think we should be aiming for imbalance.
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@xenotimebong said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2508525#Comment_2508525
But like I said, that’s because the game is a 4v1 that is balanced around a combination of individual killer skill, individual survivor skill, and survivor teamwork. If the survivors are a great team and individually competent, the core game design kind of dictates that they will win more often. Not all the time, provably they don’t, but more often.
How exactly do you suggest they change that? Considering that if you nerf highly coordinated 4 stacks, you will also nerf every other type of survivor group, and end up with newer or less skilled survivors dying even more often than they already do. What changes would allow for amazing teams to win less and the other 98% of the player base that isn’t an amazing team to not just get rolled into the dirt all the time?
I’m not opposed to balance changes for both sides, there are many maps that need improvement for example, and killers that would benefit from buffs to their power. But that wouldn’t be enough, good survivor teams would still win a lot.
Why more often? Shouldn't it be 50/50? I don't see why one side being 4 people really matters, if both sides have equal skill overall it should be an equal match up, not 80/20 or whatever just because. There's nothing inherent about the game design that says the team of 4 should win more often at the same skill level and the devs have stated that's not what they want as well, they want 2K:2E, or in other words a 50/50.
4 good survivors should = 1 good killer
1 good team should = 1 good team
1 side playing well should not be greater than the other playing well just because. I think that's silly. Its also pretty much the definition of unbalanced.
If I'm a 5 on skill, and the other team is a 5 on skill, then why is their 5 > my 5? It shouldn't be.
If the survivors overall play better then sure, I don't think any reasonable person has a problem with that, but if they play at the same level as the killer then it should be a 50/50 split. But its not even close on the vast majority of the killer roster.
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put a toggle button at the bottom or something, both sides happy.
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So in my experience from using both perks, the biggest differences between the two was spine chill would tell me when the killer is actually coming to my location and not just getting looped nearby or something, and of course the CD.
If the killer is just getting looped nearby spine chill will usually go on and off a few times, but premonition just has the one ping due to the CD so you just know the killer is over there somewhere. Are they heading in your direction? Who knows. If they are heading to my location Spine Chill will stay lit up. So in one case I know not to leave the gen or area, in the other I'm not sure and could be wasting time being evasive.
If its a stealth killer I can also guess that much easier if I see Spine Chill on for a bit but there's not TR. For premonition they could have just went somewhere else and I'd have no idea. Like if they were going to a different gen and just happened to get into range for a moment, premo will still go off but they're not even coming to my location.
I've had games against tinkerer where gen gets to the threshold, Spine chill lights up and stays lit up, there's no TR, but its a Blight or someone who can't hide TR basekit, and I conclude they have tinkerer and leave the gen early avoiding the free hit. You could just leave the gen with Premo as well, but again, it could just be they're getting lopped or just passing nearby and you don't have any tools to tell on its own. Is their TR gone because tinkerer or because they're going somewhere else? With SC I know they're comin to me.
Once you get good general game sense you can also guess which direction the killer is coming from in most cases with spine chill. With good map knowledge you can also just take the safest path out the location you're in. For example if I'm near the left wall of the map my best option out if I want to be unseen is towards the wall and I'll leave the loop that way. It's not 100%, but with premo you could end up moving a lot of the time when you don't need to.
Premonition can lead you into situation where you're spending time being evasive when you don't need to, If they have ruin that's free regression. Even if they don't that's time you're not being the most effective at whatever task you're doing.
I don't think premonition is horrible, its just spine chill is generally more useful once you get accustomed to how to react to and read it mixed in with some game knowledge. That's been my experience with the two perks at least. The one plus I can give premonition is it cannot be countered by moonwalking. If the cooldown was lower than it would be much much better, 30 seconds is a lot.
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Blood Pact, Pharmacy and Small Game on survivor.
Death bound, Surveillance, Brutal Strength, Surge, and Trail of Torment on killer.
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@wxnickxw Also another fundamental thing that is difficult is how big would the "camp" radius be? MYC is 32 meters and that's considered proxy camping by some. 32 isn't big enough, so how much of the map are you going to section off that the killer just isn't allowed in or the timer pauses? What about the gens in that area? What about the loops in that area?
If you make it bigger the killer basically can't play in a whole area/side of the map, you make it smaller and the killer can just sit close enough to the hook where the system doesn't matter.
This will happen every single time they hook someone.
Again, I don't think this system can work at all, there's too many issues.
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@wxnickxw said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2498921#Comment_2498921
If you think other tweaks need to be made if the killers start loosing to much that's not really a problem the game is constantly buffing and nerfing everyone so remove camping and continue to adjust as needed. Although to hear a large number of killer mains camping isn't very good and only trash killers use it so if they are right then no need to adjust very much anyway. (Unless they are lieing about how good camping is)
Part of the problem is that survivors can induce camping themselves as well and this system doesn't just punish campers, it punished killers for even being near the hook to defend it since survivors can work around the rules and it works in the survivors favor.
You can't block the survivors from going near the hook, they need to get the save. You also can't block the killer in the event he needs to defend it.
Again, pausing the timer is not a system I believe can be made to work without very large changes and the introduction of new mechanics or reworking existing ones around it.
It was tried, it failed horribly, and slapping on "in chase" isn't going to fix the issues.
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@wxnickxw said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2498824#Comment_2498824
Hate to break it to you but forcing the killer to leave is the entire point of addressing camping. And you can never fix it in a way that camping isn't the "right play" (I'm assuming you mean right as in good for the killer as an effective way to win) because the whole point is to make it so the killer is not able to use camping as an effective strategy because if it's not effective they will stop doing it.
Also I kinda like how some killers refer to a Survivor stopping what there doing and presenting themselves like a steak on a plate as somehow not to the killers advantage becuase they have to go chase them to down them instead of continuing to camp
Getting the killer to leave in a way that doesn't overly benefit the survivors and put the killer is a losing position no matter what is the issue. With the purposed system the killer is in a lose-lose. You want to remove camping from the killer, but what are you giving them to compensate for the loss of being able to use it? So far nothing, just punishing them.
You need to make the other action way more beneficial and essentially remove camping from having any potential benefit, something I don't believe is possible with the way DBD is fundamentally designed, hence needing to make a much larger change.
You have to chase 1 survivor, they have 2 other teammates. In your system the position the killer is in is basically "hey take this chase in the area I want with me having a head start, or stay there and we get free gen time." Its not a "steak on a plate". It a chase you don't take because they have too much distance or are next to a strong area, but you also can't not take it or they have all the time to do gens since the person on hook will essentially never die.
Hook pressure is important, you can't just give it up for free. But in this system you'd have no choice.
This also puts the hooked survivor in a situation where they could be camped indefinitely or until the game ends. You think camping is rough now imagine getting camped for 5 gens + gates. The killer potentially doesn't have a winning option and the survivor on hook is camped for longer. Pausing the timer is not the solution, we need a different one.
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@wxnickxw said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2498642#Comment_2498642
I'm pretty sure chases are a little harder to break for more than a second or two using those methods, i know my chases with survivors don't end the when they run behind an obstacles, so long as I keep chasing then I mean, which would mean that the timer would be only extended by a few seconds from the pallets at worst and there aren't going to be more than a couple pallets right next to the hook
They don't always end immediately, there's other factors like distance and where the killers camera is facing that determine how long before the chase is lost, pallets are just an easy example of how it can be lost very quickly. If they just run behind a rock and you follow them the chase won't end.
That still leaves the issue of being out of chase range to begin with or just not running till the killer heads your way but still pressuring the hook. Either they leave to follow you potentially giving a free save to a teammate and also giving you a head start in that new chase, or they stay and the hook timer is paused which is free gen time for others.
Its a little better than the old system, but its not good imo. I don't think there can be a solution by punishing the killer as those just open the door for abuse or the killer getting punished for what could be the right play at the time thus putting them in a lose-lose situation. I have yet to see a suggestion without one or both of these problems.
Solving camping would probably require fundamental changes in the core gameplay systems to make defending hooks not something the killer needs to do anymore. Not that I'm against that but its probably not happening.
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@MikaKim said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2493633#Comment_2493633
I'm sorry but your first sentence is 'I guess' and then a paragraph that I started to read, but then realised we were still stuck talking about what kind of survivors.
The 'average survivor'? Define average, what are the units of metric to describe the average? Hours? Escapes?
You then finish with 'very not likely', I honestly wonder why you bothered typing so much to what boils down to anecdotal subjective talking points. I'll even throw in an over analysis of my original statement, while ignoring the fact that all the OP had to do was clarify what they were talking. Rather than your long winded 'I think so'.
Furthermore, as I had referenced previously, soloq vs swf play out vastly differently. So even in that context I'd still laugh at OP statement because it was so limited in scope and provides no context. Even if we discount 'new survivors'.
As I said its just a more detailed explanation behind my thinking, so it was going to be a longer and more thorough. Yes we were talking about what kind of survivors since that's what you brought up to me, as I said. I think we can both agree to move on from that topic.
I had my own separate point that you could have responded to instead before you pivoted from new survivors to swf, so I'm going to assume you have no intention on doing so and move on from that as well.
Yes swf and solo are different, and swf is obviously more effective. If you're having problems with NoED solo I would suggest going after the 1 totem at the end of the game rather than all 5, maybe do a totem or 2 that you happen upon before that to shrink the potential search area. That's what I usually do and I usually get 2-3 before endgame. You can also bring the same tools I brought up before, perks and the map item, especially if you're concerned about maps with harder totem locations and your own totem finding skills are not up to par for those maps.
Doing all 5 totems is one possibility, doing the 1 while its active just like every other hex is another. Its much more viable solo to go for the 1 totem at the end if you don't want to leave your teammates behind. Another choice you have is to leave your teammate(s) behind and just get your own win. Being the one who gets left behind kinda sucks, but that's part of the game in general and could be the best choice for the overall team win.
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Just dodge the chain first then solve the box immediately, there's a delay between chains and they don't spawn as you solve. But it wont stop chains that already spawned so that's what's interrupting you.
Dodge first, then solve. Don't solve as soon as you get your hands on it.
If you do get hit by a chain, break the following 3 that will come after you since you got hit, dodge the next one as getting hit does not pause the timer for the next as far as I can tell, then solve the box.
This is what I do and I have had no problems solving the box.
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@latinfla4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/280157/slightly-worried-about-a-new-pinhead-build
Do bones🤣🤣🤣🤣
Sorry just had to. The only way to counteract this is is to run in pairs and have one person bodyblock chains while the other person solves the box.
Basically how you counter twins but yeah it's tough.
You don't need someone to block the chains. You just need to dodge the chain first then solve the box. New chains won't spawn while solving.
What's happening to a lot of survivors and OP is they pick up the box, a chain will spawn, survivor will start the solve after it spawns, then it'll shoot out and interrupt them (there's a delay between spawn and chain shooting out). You just need to dodge and start solving inbetween chain spawns. Don't start solving the exact moment you get the box, dodge the next chain first.
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@wxnickxw said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2497879#Comment_2497879
Yes and I've been told the abuse was 1they would run the killer near the hook. (Fixed by the except in a chase part) or 2 it forced killers to leave the hook when they would rather stay ie it made them stop camping as intended which most killer mains seem to think is a firm of abuse
The problem there is "in chase" is easy to cheese with the current chase system. To be in chase you need to be within a certain range, have LOS, and the survivor needs to be running. Then on top of that chase is really easy/quick to break. Just dropping a pallet and the killer breaking it will end chase a lot of the time for example.
So survivors could just stay out the chase range or duck in and out of LOS blockers but still be pressuring the killer with a potential hook save, thus abusing the system in a similar way as before, just from a little further away.
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@MikaKim said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2480750#Comment_2480750
They didn't discount it either. You point is kinda mute.
Like when the say 'survivors' and not soloq vs swf. Which are 2 completely different things.
I'll add more details as to why I believe that they don't mean new survivors I suppose, since that's what you're bringing up to me.
My guess is they didn't discount it because the average player is not a new survivor and no one was talking about new survivors afaik. Unless otherwise stated or hinted at, the assumption is that they are talking about the average survivor, not new ones.
That would make no sense, new survivors struggle with everything because they don't have any experience or knowledge, especially on "day 1". Also, who judges balance based on day 1 survivors? Its an unreasonable assumption to say they were talking about new ones with the statement they gave and the thread up to that point.
You're also specifically saying "you expect new survivors..." as if they mentioned new survivors or there's some reasonable reason to think they were talking about them when there's not. At this point you're putting words in their mouth.
When new survivors are spoken about they are singled out or explicitly stated as they are not the norm.
What have they said to give any indication whatsoever that they were talking about new survivors?
By the same token I could say "No they were talking about really experienced survivors, they have no excuse to not learn the spots." After all they didn't discount them either.
Honestly at this point just ask them if they meant new survivors, rather than make such a large assumption. Us debating what they meant isn't going to solve anything and a waste of time.
I was just pointing out that's very likely not what they meant as that would be out of nowhere and there's no reason to believe that's what they meant, and placing my own response to what you said that in the event that we bring up newer survivors they have access to maps and small game as well so they don't need to know the spots. The same way any survivor player doesn't need to know the spots, they have tools to find the totem(s) for them.
Adding on to that point, I honestly can't take you as making a good faith argument if you're trying to use day 1 players as a measuring stick for balance or expectations with anything for the overall game other than the new player experience.
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What does "puzzles of the scene" mean? Like finding generator parts? Or is it different for each map?
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I already don't tunnel and camp, and I don't want to farm, so I just play like normal. 1 man down the game will finish quicker anyway, at least by playing normally people get some points.
Rushing the game will just make sure no one really gets anything. If the DC happens early I'll probably let the last guy go out the hatch unless its a map where it'll probably take way too long to find. Imo its better to just hook them and both of us move on to the next match than spend forever looking for hatch on Mothers Dwelling or the Swamp.
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Well, if you mean how its designed than its 100% casual party game.
DBD is a casual game, but it can be played competitively like any other game. There's nothing wrong with players wanting to play any game competitively, its just not designed around that.
The problem is that these two groups should not mix, and SBMM should fix that. Competitive players suck the fun out for people who just want a casual game and competitive players don't get the challenge they want from casual players.
Its kinda like Smash Bros., its designed to be a party game, but any game where people are against each other will have those that play it competitively.
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I didn't miss your point I responded to that. But I'll do it again in more detail.
Let me start with something a little more positive at least.
"All in all, the only thing in regards to totems I care about the devs adding is a counter for all survivors. I have no idea why they locked that behind a perk when it should be a feature given to all survivors."
Yes 100% agree. I'm still going to address everything else brought up, but if that's really all you care about then on that we can agree and leave it there.
(Numbered for easier reading)
1) "Your strategy is acting on the premise as if you know exactly which of the five totems is the hex" I never stated that, and no its not. I said cleanse 1 totem, I never said check 1 spot. No, I don't believe it takes too long to check multiple spots on most maps.
Its not "lost on me" I understand that it is more ideal to get all 5, but its unrealistic in most solo que games. So focus on what you can so solo. You don't like doing 1 totem because too many are up at the end for you, you don't like doing all 5, then here's another solution: do 1 or 2 so your search area is smaller at the end. A middle ground between the two that still works. Alternatively you could just leave at the end.
2) "You should not strive to allow No ed to be active if you can help it" Sure that's an option you can take, but if that's not a reliable option do one of the ones that's most in your control. The solo options works just fine.
3) "This wouldn't be a bad strategy if solo queue had reliable teammates but...solo queue tings." I disagree, that's not really an issue. If I can do it in most of my solo que matches, what's stopping you? If you know where the spots are it should be fairly quick to check in most cases. If you're team is that much of a burden and you can't find the totems in time just leave through the gates and save yourself.
You don't need nor should you expect to save your team every match. Get yourself out if that's all you can do.
4) "even a minute worth of NO Ed value can absolutely wreck a game and your teammates and also you as well. " You and your entire team should not be getting destroyed in 1 minuet unless all of you mess up, including you. Factor in its endgame so the killer will most likely be protecting the hook, why are you going down so quickly? Your team might be bad, but why are you going down quickly? Are you joining them in their bad decisions?
Unless you are all swarming the killer or grouping up with NoED active (which is a really bad move) this should not be happening. If they aren't protecting the hook then the save is available and that means they're chasing which uses up a lot of time you can use to find the totem. If you're team is getting bodied by NoED you can cleanse it, then go help them, or you can leave.
If you're getting bodied consistently then it might not be only your team that's causing it and you may need to take more measures to work against it.
5) "You also don't seem to be accounting for the time spent looking for said totems and how long it can take traversing some maps as well. " I am, I do it just fine, its not a problem on most maps. Some maps sure, but that's jut getting unlucky and a problem with map design not the perk. If it was a perk problem it be a problem on every map since it wouldn't matter, the problem is the perk. On those maps, you check what you think you have time for, if you don't find it in those checks, you leave. Oh well got unlucky with the map. That's just part of DBD.
You have enough time to find the totem in most cases. Unless you are actually unironically saying doing one totem takes too long.
6) Ah yes, saying I was acting like a "totem master" was an accurate read when specifically I mentioned in what you replied to that I had a personal choice of a totem perk. I never said I know all the spots. Or maybe you mean the one where you assumed (also incorrectly) that I don't have a lot of experience with totem spawns? I know a good amount of the spawns. It was not accurate at all.
I'm not a master but I'd say I'm at least decent, and "need" is a strong word. I don't need the perk in most of my games, but I bring it for the ones I don't know that well and to cut down search time. I never said I need the perk because I can't find totems at all without it, I said I use it and it helps and its my personal choice of perk. I said I don't know enough to go in blind, for me "enough" is all of them or close to it. I said I don't want to memorize every map. I know a lot of spawns just from bumping into them over time, but I'm not going to go out of my way to learn every map in the game. Even on maps where I know the spawns, its a nice speed up since if its in a house on Badham I just have to look at the house and I'll know if the totem is there or not.
Even if you don't believe me, I'm not having a problem with NoED in the majority of my matches. So if you do actually know the spots even better than me, you should have even less problems. But it sounds to me with your complaints of it taking too long and ect., problems I'm (and others) not usually having, that you're not a totem master either, so either bring a map or bring the perks to help you with time if its taking you too long, to help with those maps you don't know well, or you're gonna have to deal with the chance you're gonna get NoED on a map you don't know or is well suited to finding totems.
I was giving solutions to the problem. You can learn all or most the spots, which I also suggested is something you can work on if you want since that is a valid solution. Especially considering the issue in question was specifically "not knowing the spawns". Its not unreasonable to suggest "well start learning the spawns then" or "use tools to help find/learn them" as a solution.
But you don't even need to know the spots well to counter the perk if you use the tools available.
7)"The only reason I would use a totem perk is to do totems fast and at that point I'd just bring a map." Yes, exactly, there's a solution to the time problem you keep saying you're having, like I've been saying. If your own totem finding skills are not enough, which is completely reasonable considering how many maps there are and RNG, bring a perk or map.
You're refusing to use the solutions to your problem and complaining the problem is still there.
8) "it has to do with teammate quality." Then the problem you have, like I said already, is teammates not the perk. Again, bad teams will struggle with everything that requires teamwork. Everything includes 5 totems and getting the teamout during endgame against NoED. We should not balance around bad teams. Even so, you can deal with NoED on your own and get yourself out if they're really that bad. If your team is a lost cause then so be it. You can't fix "bad at the game".
9) "I don't enjoy playing babysitter nor want to do it" Then stop doing it. I don't babysit my solo que teammates since if they're that bad we're losing anyway and if they're not then they don't need me to babysit. I'll help and do my part as a teammate, but I'm not babysitting. If my team is bad and the map is mothers dwelling and there's a NoED, I'll check nearby and maybe a bit further until its clear you won't be saved in time, after that I'm leaving out the gates. I recommend you do the same.
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@Toxicboii said:
So.... Uhm, I guess this didn't really solve anything. Well, it reassured me of something.
Some survivor mains, as I kinda expected, are a bit short-sighted.
Ok, so... First off. From what I heard, at least, most of you are unwilling to "put in the time to find all 5 totems and destroy them".
If you want to counter a perk, you have to put in the time to do so. And yes, you may fumble from time to time, but you are trying. And the reward you get is a chunk of BP, and the hex being spawned into a predictable spot if you know where the last one is.
It's similar to doing gens, with the difference being 'its faster if the killer isn't running a perk that hampers that', and that it 'makes escaping easier rather than providing that opportunity'. If the issue is running around the map aimlessly, then, you know, run a doggone perk that helps you if you have that much trouble with it!
Secondly, I've heard people say the answer, 'Do bones', is 'too simple' or 'too idiotic', or... Something along those lines. It's varied.
And in retort.... It's an answer. It's not meant to be something you accept or take to heart, it's a [bleep]in' ANSWER to a question! You don't see anyone hamper on someone replying 'yes' to a 'yes-or-no' question, because it's a bloody answer.
It only goes to show the willful ignorance you naturally have because of your refusal to accept "Do bones" as an answer, despite it, y'know, being an answer that works. There are ways to counter NOED, doing bones, leaving the first chance you get, don't get hit, etc. But deliberately ignoring the facts all to make the game more easier for yourself is painful to the people who actually want the best for this game.
NOED is already niche, usually only working once before a survivor ends it. The only way the killer can cause full wipeouts is if they were given the opportunity to do so. It's how camping, Tier 3 Myers, Demon-mode Oni, and other one-shots can sometimes do this in the duration it lasts. The intense altruism works against the survivors in dangerous circumstances because it results in more collateral damage due to them being grouped up. Usually obviously so to the point when they don't care the killer is staring down their necks.
Honestly, I won't bother with sayin' more. I'm going to discredit the future arguments against NOED because, well, they're inconsistent, they aren't based on fact, and frankly, most of them are wrote by 13 year olds who flunked english classes.
I agree with this as well. They have reasonable solutions, they just refuse to use them yet get upset the problem is still there. They're perpetuating their own problems.
I believe willful ignorance is a pretty accurate term to use.
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@Damarus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2480586#Comment_2480586
Well, I thought it was clear enough, perhaps it wasn't. Anyway, that is pretty much what I am saying. There have been lots of times in which I alone cleansed all 5 of the totems, without totem perks. Sometimes the killer had NoeD, sometimes he didn't. I would at least like to know how many totems are still up, and if I can count on my teammates for them or not (randoms, of course). There was absolutely no point into making the totem counter fall onto the most useless perk ever, when it could have simply been a HUD information.
While I don't agree Small game is near "the most useless perk ever", the totem counter should have definitely been a base HUD element.
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@kyogul said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2479885#Comment_2479885
You're missing the point again, which isn't surprising considering the quality of your arguments.
The complaints from me at least isn't from the killer getting value, it's obviously how strong NO ED is in the end game and how chaotic it is to get it done in solo queue without being a detriment. Several people have explained in the most simple english so far that if you don't understand then it's merely a comprehension problem and that's on you.
Other than on indoor maps like RPD/Léry's/Midwich, I know totem spawns very well, it's just that I almost always don't have the time to look around for totems since I have to babysit teammates. There are almost always games where I come across totems and I may manage to do one and I see others but I can't do it at the moment (or even later) because I have to go be caretaker to Steve who went down in basement against a Hag, or Feng who wants to be a wannabe Ayrun and try to get a flashlight save injured but just goes does and gives the killer extra pressure, etc. I'm not the one who has to use totem perks to find totems so your condescension is both folly and laughable. 6/10 for the effort though because it's very obvious you thought you had a clapback moment there.
Solo queue isn't 1v4, it's 1v1v1v1v1. I'm not occupying a perk slot of mine in compensation for incompetence of other people unless I'm truly working in a team which is in a SWF and the only time survivor is 1v4, hence why I also don't run Borrowed Time and We'll Make It in solo queue almost ever because ######### that. The most I'm running is Bond so I don't run into teammates when in chase and to monitor babies when I coincidentally pass by them but that's it.
You're obviously not listening or not understanding but I'll try again.
You're the one who completely misunderstood a fairly straightforward point about 1 totem not taking too long to cleanse nor being team reliant as somehow meaning all 5. I understand that finding all 5 totems in solo que can be difficult, which is why I said to find 1 totem on your own multiple times as I have been doing in my own games.
"so your condescension is both folly and laughable. 6/10 for the effort though because it's very obvious you thought you had a clapback moment there."
Ironically this is how you're acting. I've been addressing your points, I'm not the one going out of my way to make comments such as "Yea I can very easily tell you don't have much experience with totem spawns" and "I know you're trying hard to act like a totem master", not only were/are these incorrect but you also are using them as an absolute that you somehow apparently know. Reading back my replies, unless I missed something I was using statements that are not absolutes nor acting like I somehow absolutely know something about you. Then we have "which isn't surprising considering the quality of your arguments." I believe that one should be obvious enough. These seem like pretty clear attempts at slander. Moving on...
Values from the perk is pressure, or I guess in your words the "chaos" it gives. So if that's your problem yes your issue is with the killer getting value out the perk. If the perk isn't applying pressure or helping you apply pressure, than what's the point of using it? You're not a detriment for getting rid of the thing that is applying pressure to the entire team, that's a foolish stance.
In solo que, yeah teams can be bad. That's not a problem of the perk, that's a teammate problem. Otherwise I guess we better nerf literally everything because bad teams will struggle against literally everything. We shouldn't balance nor judge balance based on bad teams, that's dumb, as I hope you can agree. Teams can also be good if the right players come together.
I play solo que, I know there can be bad teams, that doesn't stop me from cleansing NoED in most cases. So what exactly is stopping you but not me?
Also don't we already have a fix to bad teams with SBMM?
We're talking about NoED, not the quality of your teammates, NoED. You can counter it by yourself. You choosing not to is your decision.
If you can't escape because you're babysitting your team, then don't. Also, breaking the totem will help everyone. If they die by then that's on them.
"There are almost always games where I come across totems and I may manage to do one and I see others but I can't do it at the moment (or even later)"
I said this in an earlier response: "Why are you still talking about doing all 5 when we specifically mentioned just doing 1 at the end which is easier, not team reliant, and doesn't take "too much time"?"
Once again, you're not listening or failing to comprehend. I have laid out in plain English we are talking about breaking 1 totem. You can manage to do one? Great. Make that 1 the hex totem.
Its too much to get all 5 totems, ok, break the 1 totem at the end. This is not a problem in solo que since you can break 1 totem on your own, you don't need your team to break 1 totem. Saying breaking 1 totem takes too much time is asinine.
"I'm not occupying a perk slot of mine in compensation for incompetence of other people"
Then don't. Those perks aren't there for your teammates they're there for you. If you can find the totem on your own without the perks, then do it. You'll be a better help to your team breaking the NoED than trying to babysit. If its taking too long, then you don't know the spots well enough and should use the tools available. You don't know the indoor spawns? Then learn them or take the tools just in case you get one. Otherwise accept that you may get unlucky and get a map you don't know that well.
If you're choosing to not use the solutions to the problem that are available, that's a you problem not a perk problem.
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@Katie_met said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2480790#Comment_2480790
But someone has to get hit with noed for the survivors to know the killer has noed. The killer may hook the survivor next to the totem, resulting in a kill because the survivors can't get the totem or the unhook. That single down can change everything.
Yes if the survivors don't stop the perk, the killer gets use from the perk. They played the rest of the match 1 perk down and you didn't do what you needed to stop it just in case, they should get use out of it.
Most perks you can't even do that, they just get use.
The totem being near where they got downed is just really unlucky.
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@Katie_met said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2479118#Comment_2479118
Yes I can do that, but that doesn't take away the fact that it is still time consuming, and at red ranks I shouldn't have to cleanse every totem on the off-chance that a red rank killer is playing noed.
I've recently been using detective's hunch and counterforce so totems are quick to cleanse. But it should't be expected for survivors to cleanse all 5 totems in a trial just in case the killer is using a cheap and unrewarding perk.
Then don't and cleanse the 1 hex totem after the last gen.
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I don't think they mentioned anything even hinting about new players so my guess is they're probably talking about more experienced ones. If I missed something lmk.
Even so, small game is also a base perk that "newb" survivors can get and so are maps (item). New players will struggle with everything though, so that's not exactly a good reference point imo.
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@Damarus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2476827#Comment_2476827
In a game like this, pretty much everything is team reliant. Say you don't break any totem, like you are suggesting, and the killed has NoeD. Ok, which totem has it now? Is it on the other side of the map from where you are? Will the randoms on your team open the exit gates while you find and cleanse it, or will they hide forever? Will somebody else the hooked guy while you find and cleanse it, or will nobody do that? Will YOU be the hooked guy that gets left behind, because people are not going to help you against a killer who needed to rely on such a thing?
What you are saying, basically, is: I see someone carrying a gun in the metro, and there is a police officer next to me. But he still hasn't shot and killed anybody, so I don't need to warn the officer yet. Once someone is dead, which might as well be me, then he can be warned.
Most things are sure, breaking 1 totem is not. You don't need your team to break 1 totem, you can find it yourself. Would it be better if that was the case? sure. If you need your team to break 1 totem you need to improve your totem skills or you can use a perk or bring a map.
Which totem has it? idk its almost like every hex perk has a random totem spot that you have to go hunt for and there are perks and an item to help find them, or do you think hex perks should reveal their location as soon as they're active just because?
Breaking NoED =/= all survivors get out and get the hooked guy as well, which is all those other things you attached like the gates, unhooking, and the randoms. Do you want to break NoED? Yes? Ok break the 1 totem. Do you want to get your whole team out? Yes? then that will require teamwork. But that's a different conversation.
Are we talking about getting rid of NoED or saving the entire team? Because one has a solution and the other doesn't since you can't fix bad teammates, you can only fix yourself.
You getting left behind is your teams decision and a survivor problem, not a problem of the perk. They could break the totem as well, if they choose not to then it the fault of the team not the perk.
Also that analogy isn't great because seeing the gun is the equivalent to knowing the killer has NoED, which you don't know. We don't know if someone is going to bring a gun into the metro, but the officer is still there just in case, just like you can bring a perk or map just in case.
These perks and a map also help against literally every hex in the game js.
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@kyogul said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2476827#Comment_2476827
"Everyone is so focused on doing all 5 totems, they seem to forget you can just break the 1 totem when its active just like every other hex.
That is a horrendous strategy for solo queue and only works for SWF. Presuming NO ED is active by that time, could you theoretically just wait until it happens and then go look for the hex and break it? Yes but you're allowing for NO ED the time to get its pressure. Before the last gen procs, you could have ran around the entire map and saw all five totems and know where they are and you're still wasting time checking all five locations and giving NO ED significant time to pressure your teammates.
And also good luck trying to do that on the several maps where totems can have hoards of spawns, i.e. léry's, midwich, RPD, and to a lesser extent but still very difficult extent several other realms.
This is extremely terrible advice especially for large maps. Try doing that on a map like Mother's Dwelling, even if you managed to come across all five totems during your play on the map, and see how much value NO ED gets unless you just coincidentally find it on your first try. The reality is that you're probably not going to come across all five locations during your time on the map if you're not deliberately looking for them and thus wasting time at the end trying to find NO ED.
The sarcasm is a reply to me saying "I hope we don't hear breaking 1 totem takes "too much time"."
I'm aware of what your sarcasm was towards and it was both dumb and unrealistic for solo queue. Maybe a different story for a person with mid to high MMR, we'll see, but this is about non-MMR solo queue. I also interpreted that phrase as not specifically about breaking one totem and never doing one again but simply talking about how long it takes to do a totem, and extrapolating that to doing multiple and up to five as one survivor. That's just my take though.
2)"Issue isn't not knowing the spawns" if your problem is you can't find the totems, yes that is the issue. Its harder on indoor maps but that just means you have to be better at knowing where they are. Or you know, map/perks of which you have multiple options (my personal choice being small game, but I hear detectives hunch is good too).
Yea I can very easily tell you don't have much experience with totem spawns if you're saying this tripe even on maps like Léry's and Midwich, which that comment was targeted at (including RPD which arguably is harder due to its size).
Some of these maps have close to four dozen spawns and the issue isn't only the number but the size of the maps (or the layout, and something like Léry's where all the rooms look the same is confusing as hell). That means you have almost a 1/50 chance of guessing correctly and you have to do that five times, even if you just try to look for the totem at the end.
I know you're trying hard to act like a totem master but stop, it's not working, along with your condenscenion as well which is extremely boring. Yes maps and detective's hunch (which is alright, not really great) are fine but it shouldn't be one person's responsibility to do something that's a group effort. And trying to bring in a map every game is unrealistic and I shouldn't have to dedicate a perk slot to make up for teammate's incompetence of trying to find and do totems.
How dare the killer get use out of their perk when the survivors didn't do what they needed to stop it.
I don't think its dumb or unrealistic in solo que since I do it just fine in solo que myself.
Like I said I run small game normally, not always but usually. I'm not acting like a "totem master" otherwise I wouldn't be using a perk to help out. Sounds to me like you just don't know totem spots well enough so you should use a perk or bring a map sir/madame, that's what they're intended for. I don't want to memorize every map, so I just use the perk. I know some maps totem spawns fairly well, but not enough to go in blind, hence me using the perk.
"I shouldn't have to dedicate a perk slot" Why not? A perk for a perk is more than fair considering your team has 16.
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@kyogul said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2476694#Comment_2476694
I really don't know what you're trying to be sarcastic for as if you'd do any better than the lot of people here complaining in terms of finding totems.
No one's complaining about the act of doing totems. There is one main issue with several sub problems and it all starts with teammates.
1) You never know how many totems your team cleanses. You as a survivor cleanse three totems. Did your teammates cleanse the other two? Who knows unless you spot check all five totem spawns, wasting time.
2) Some maps it's extremely common to never come across a totem i.e. Léry's due to how well hidden they are and subsequently, how much more time you'll waste finding them. Issue isn't not knowing the spawns, it's that on some maps it's too many spawns.
3) Kind of a paraphrasing of #1, but teammates are almost always unreliable in solo queue. You cannot do anything in solo queue without babysitting your teammates and that includes having to spot check did they cleanse all totems or wait for the magical NO ED to potentially appear. Because of how chaotic games are due to matchmaking you can't just say "cleanse bones" when there's almost always too much going on to just sit and waste time to look around for multiple totems. Some games are like that, most games aren't. Unless you want to be a detriment to your team.
"I really don't know what you're trying to be sarcastic for"
Did you even read what they replied to (that I wrote)?
"Everyone is so focused on doing all 5 totems, they seem to forget you can just break the 1 totem when its active just like every other hex.
I hope we don't hear breaking 1 totem takes "too much time"."
Literally the first line they wrote: "Breaking one totem takes too much time because..."
The sarcasm is a reply to me saying "I hope we don't hear breaking 1 totem takes "too much time"."
Problems 1, 2, and 3 you just outlined are all about teammates and (I believe) doing all 5 totems. You don't need teammates to break 1 totem. Also as I just said:
"Everyone is so focused on doing all 5 totems, they seem to forget you can just break the 1 totem when its active just like every other hex."
1) ok, don't waste time on all 5, do the 1 at the end. Remember any totems you see for later just in case.
2)"Issue isn't not knowing the spawns" if your problem is you can't find the totems, yes that is the issue. Its harder on indoor maps but that just means you have to be better at knowing where they are. Or you know, map/perks of which you have multiple options (my personal choice being small game, but I hear detectives hunch is good too).
3) see 1.
Why are you still talking about doing all 5 when we specifically mentioned just doing 1 at the end which is easier, not team reliant, and doesn't take "too much time"? Its just like finding every other hex. Unless now we're going to say all hexes take "too much time".
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@ThiccBudhha said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2476686#Comment_2476686
Breaking one totem takes too much time because once they get stabbed, they are instantly down. It is already too late, Penguin! And you aren't accounting for how long it takes to find. The 3 of us searched for a whole 2 minutes while the poor victim was sitting on hook. How is that acceptable to you? He DIED. D-E-A-D. Game over, man. And then while I was bagging at the exit gate, he got me too. It is so broken and he wouldn't have gotten even one kill if it wasn't for No Skill ED. Word up, homie.
Oh how could I have been so blind? Those poor survivors 😪 nOPed should be broken instantly upon interaction and have its aura reveled to all survivors once the gens are powered, then we can find it in the evil impossible to find spots the totems are in and maybe, maybe, the perk will be somewhat bearable.
To be truly balanced it would also need to give the survivors all their hook states back and extend the hook timer to 5 minuets per state and prevent the EGC timer from progressing if we open the gates, just to make sure the killer gets no undeserved kills. After all, endgame is such a large part of the match and last so long.
A moment of silence for our fellow community members who have been bonked by a no skill killer while bagging groceries at the gates, they just wanted their tea for tomorrow. Poor poor tea baggers. I hear its good for their mental health.
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Everyone is so focused on doing all 5 totems, they seem to forget you can just break the 1 totem when its active just like every other hex.
I hope we don't hear breaking 1 totem takes "too much time".
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@GannTM said:
As a red rank on both sides, the ratio between toxic survivors and toxic killers I have encountered are like 95:5. It’s really not even a comparison and I’m not sure why it’s like this.
Same here.
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Points 3 and 4 are the bigger ones to me personally. I'm not gonna pay for a weak killer with subpar perks (that I can get in the shrine later).
If they improve him or if he shows to be better than expected after his release, then I'll consider it.
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@Marc_go_solo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2470066#Comment_2470066
I get the frustration. To answer your first question, a system is more susceptable to abuse the more is known about it. If people don't know the specifics, then it's harder to take advantage. It may feel under-handed, but the previous match-making was rife with holes to worm through.
This most recent test has (mostly) been a lot more successful, taking into account the positive feedback overall. We've seen this in the forums, and I'm not that distracted by the concerns which roll in; usually expected with changes. Yet, from my perspective, it was very balanced. I did say the original version was questionable, because it was based upon too simplistic a measuring device. They've said this SBMM has a lot more complexities within it; takes more into account. Combined with feedback and personal experience, the criteria used has worked well for me.
You have a good point about giving feedback, when it's unknown what the feedback is measuring against. Whether it's a failure of the system, a mess of data, or players simply being unhappy because it's not matching with their perceived reality, having some measure would be interesting to have. At the same time, the problem goes into revealing how the system works and it becomes open to manipulation - a vicious cycle that would repeat the errors of the current ranking system. I guess that's why I'm in favour of being against knowing.
However, if people were to keep a consistent tally of their results (ideally screenshots) and use that as information - alongside in-game experience - at least there could be evidence if someone is getting consistently battered. Again, it's abusable because that player can be selective in evidence, but it's something to start with.
And this is probably just repeating myself (sorry about that) but going on to the point about escapes and kills being used as the measure, that's what happened in the first test and on their news update they do say they realised that wasn't working, so they made a much more complex system. I'm going to say that even the first test was better than our current one, but there were some inconsistencies in sudden spikes in difficulty, and certainly compared to now, the response was more mixed. Now it feels more in favour.
I also agree BHVR haven't the best track record in terms of consistency. They have done a lot better than what some people claim, especially by trying to balance a game that couldn't ever be balanced by its very nature, and ultimately being proved right with a fair few changes. They've also given a plethora of bugs and some changes I can't even understand why (Hillbilly's cooldown still makes no sense whatsoever, even when taking into account concrete data). There are companies who have done better and worse, but none really have the same, ever-expanding criteria to have to work with as BHVR.
I'm going to stay positive for this, and also hope the fixes to DH, gen repairs and healing work in the next patch.
At the least I would just like to be able to see the number so you can at least know if your matches are actually pairing you up fairly without the guesswork.
But I can understand your viewpoint as well and the points you brought up are very valid. At the end of everything if it works out well for everyone then of course that's great.
So fingers crossed it works out well. Thank you for having a civil and thorough discussion 🙂
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@fogdonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2470091#Comment_2470091
You don't really need to care about it. The new system gives better results compared to the current matchmaking. And for most this should be enough.
Better doesn't mean good. Given how bad the current situation is, "better" can still be pretty poor.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2470087#Comment_2470087
We have CSGO for instance, winning there is getting a number of rounds. Players can easily boost their ranks and go against more skilled opponents the more they rank up, knowing the win condition which helps your ranking... it's easy to stay AFK or do the minimum for the system to place you in a higher spot.
Obviously this is not entire like DbD, but it's the system being exploited because they know how it works.
I don't know anything about CS:GO, but it sounds like the DBD equivalent would be kills and escapes, which is what it sounds like the main factor is given what the dev update said about the whole system being apparently fine because the K:D ratio was within a certain % of what they want.
Maybe not the only thing factored in, but the main one. That's not a good system. But unless we get more info we don't know and can't call it out.
Also we should know what counts as a win in the game, how are we going to judge if the system works or not when we don't even know what the game is aiming for in the first place. If its 2k 2e, which is what it sounds like it is, then the win condition is kills and escapes.
The devs have said before they balance for 2k 2e, they stated it as the only measure for the system working well, I think its time to say that winning and losing is based on kills and escapes. But that has problem like camping securing at least a 2k usually and RNG really putting you in a bad spot. Have the devs factored that in? Maybe.
Do I trust them to have factored that in? No.
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@fogdonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2470066#Comment_2470066
The system takes many parameters into account to calculate your skill. Then uses these skill numbers to create matches where the most probable result is going to be 2k 2e.
(And hopefully it is not achieved by putting two strong and two weaker survivors in the match where the killer is somewhere in the middle... But maybe based on the number of available players it is going to be sometimes necessary)
The current system takes many parameters and that doesn't make it good because the parameters are poorly chosen. We don't know how many parameters, we don't know if they're good ones, that problem you outlined could very well be what's happening.
Just having no information doesn't help anyone. Like the parameters could be: escape, totems, chest, and unhooks. That'd technically be "many" but it wouldn't be good.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2470066#Comment_2470066
They cannot provide details on how the sytem works because it could be exploited.
Even by knowing the "win" condition could make a lot of the unsportmanship players cheat the system. Knowing what you have to do to help increase your rating doing the minimum in your game would already make the system think "you are a good player" when you're not. It's not about the system not being efficient but everything can be exploited and simply not revealing the algorithm can solve the situations (a situation that may still be revealed since the datamining).
Second point, you don't have to trust the devs to implement a good system, you've seen the FEEDBACK from the last test which generally was good, so you can definitely see players had a good time.
How do you exploit a system that measures skill, you'd have to get better at the game which is the entire point. The only way to cheat the system is if its a bad system, which is exactly the concern. You can cheat the emblem system because its a bad system, we have no way to know if this one is good or not.
I have seen the feedback, I've seen a lot of both good and bad feedback, so no that doesn't really help. Some players had a good time, some had a horrible time.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2469938#Comment_2469938
Why not? let's see the potential reasons.
Say you have between 200-300 rating, and the moment you drop below 200... you will be matched with a weaker category or survivors. Knowing when you drop or increase in rating could be easily abused by players to exploit the system. People could easily target different playstyle purposely going for lower rating games.
So instead we throw for 10-20 games to lower it and as soon as we feel the players are competent again, start throwing again.
Seeing the number or not wont stop people from abusing it, it just stop those who don't want to from knowing how they're doing.
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@Marc_go_solo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2469689#Comment_2469689
I hear what you're saying. A counter argument is that it won't mess up anyone's game nearly as badly as the old system did. This is because the quality of matches a player gets is based much more around their own individual skill, than being thrown further down a ranking system into areas where they're forced to play with people of lesser skill, because some people have purposefully deranked or put into poorly-matched trials that cocks up other's ranking. If it's based on individual skill, rather than a pip system reliant on questionable measurements, someone trying to bugger the system up for others will mostly impact their games than others.
The whole aim of someone knowing a system works is mainly to see how it works, and then to see how it can be bent to gain an advantage. No point in someone seeing how it works, seeing that it does work, but then not liking what they see, so they look for ways to change it. I'm certainly not saying everyone would, but there undoubtably would be some.
As for what's stopping you from messing up your rankings? Nothing, but if someone wants to do that, what's the point in showing how it works anyway? It could be argued someone who wants to do that doesn't deserve to know.
I'm not against SBMM just to be clear, but what makes this system less abusable than the current? You'll still just throw to lower yourself the same way you do now and end up against opponents you shouldn't be facing who you then bully. SBM is basically pip system but supposedly better, but as you said yourself their first attempt had questionable measurements, how do we know this won't have the same issue of questionable measurements?
Everything you said is true in the pip system as well, it was supposed to be a matchmaking system and it track individuals and we can see how poorly it was implemented/designed. Imagine trying to point out what's wrong with current matchmaking if we had no info on what was going in, didn't even know if we went up or down, and couldn't see anyone's ranks, because that's essentially what's happening.
How is the community supposed to give feedback on a system when we have no idea how it works?
Essentially it just boils down to "hmm, I feel like this isn't working, but I have nothing to go off of to say if that's warranted or not." The devs can just hide behind vagueness and say "no its fine" and you have nothing to really show for it not being fine because you can't check anything. Maybe somethings wrong, maybe you're just being biased, how would you know?
It'll probably be better than what we have now but thats not a very high bar to set. That could just be because there's a bigger range of values than the current systems 20 ranks.
I don't trust BHVR to implement an accurate or fair matchmaking system, given their track record I believe that's a fair concern. I want a good SBMM system, not emblems Ver. 2 and we have no way to know whether that's true or not.
For all we know the system could be basically just kills and escapes with maybe 1 or 2 extra variables. After all, in their dev update they only mentioned kills and escapes being within an acceptable range, so it'd stand to reason that's their main factor. As most players can probably tell you, just kills and escapes are not reliably an accurate measure of "skill".
But we have no way of knowing, and thats what makes it frustrating.
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@Marc_go_solo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2468945#Comment_2468945
Not knowing and therefore getting a more accurate matchmaking as a result is way better than knowing and manipulating results to completely bugger up the experience for the player doing it and all those around.
The current system is a prime example of how players abuse the system to gain unfair advantages. Granted, the system had faults of its own, but player manipulation no doubt caused problems too.
Because of this, I hope we never know how they do it, because - to loosely quote a rather famous movie line - "life finds a way".
But I'm saying you can bugger it up anyway just by throwing a few (or more) games. Knowing or not knowing doesn't effect those that want to mess it up, it only stops others from knowing if its working well and where they stand skill wise.
Like if I enter a match as killer and never hit anyone or break any pallets or anything, I'm going down in rank. What is there to stop me?
Same with survivor.
I can just purposely do really bad on everything and I will rank down.
We just can't double check the system or even know how well we're doing, we just have to trust the devs on "it just works" and the devs don't exactly have the best track record.