MrPenguin
MrPenguin
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@BioX said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1772167#Comment_1772167
Here is a thought, maybe, just maybe, people play this game for fun?
Im getting really sick of the "just do gens" argument when it comes to camping, IT DOES NOT MATTER, you can do nothign but afk all game, you can run up to the killer and die, you can go for silly attempts to unhook, you can hold M1 forever and then open a door and leave, it all comes down to the exact same thing: that game was a complete and utter waste of time.
Even if you play for fun, we shouldn't get mad at people playing to win for doing so. Unfortunately the game is designed in a way killing someone asap is what the killer wants to do if they have any intention of winning. Unless we change the foundation and system of the hooks and killer objective itself, tunneling will always happen and "doing something about it" would be punishing the killers for playing to win or playing well, which DS and other second chance perks already do.
Additionally, if the community decides they want tunneling and camping to stop, they also need to realize the survivor side needs to take steps as well. Not doing gens so quickly, not hook bombing/saving immediately, and not running a bunch of second chances for example. Generally not being toxic because most survivors just ooze toxicity. If the community can come together they could really change the game, but that's extremely unlikely.
You have to give the killer time to get those extra hooks if you want your games to be 12 hook games.
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Because it really ruins the game for the other survivors. If you can't handle getting camped or something, then you probably shouldn't be playing. It's not a balance issue, people are just being selfish and salty about it imo.
If I get camped for example, I hold on as long as possible to give my team as much time as possible. Whether they try to save or do gens (they should be doing gens if its a hard camper) is up to them at that point, but I'll try to give them the best shot they can have. The only times I might just let go and move on is if I'm very sure the game is over or if there's only one other survivor, because maybe they'll get hatch.
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So after reading everything it just sounds like you or your team just isn't playing very well if pop is getting this much value or you guys are going down so frequently and can't work on gens. Pop only regresses 20 seconds of 1 survivors work on 1 generator and the killer usually has to give up some pressure to use it.
10 seconds would in no way be good for the perk, it would immediately be dumpster tier. I don't know why you only want it to work on close gens. if you're going to pop a far gen there's a very good chance it'll be done by the time you get there unless you're playing select killers.
If your team spread out on gens or just didn't go down so fast, its really not an issue. The games I played where pop gets a lot of value is the ones where the survivors over commit to one gen and go down pretty easily. In most games its just ok to good, and sometimes it gets very little if any value if the survivors really know what they're doing or luck is working against me. Its already a kinda situational perk. I've seen no problem really playing with or against it, unless the survivor team misplays pretty hard and like you get 2 pops on one gen because 2 survivors messed up right next to it back to back.
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@meatisadelicacy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/208146/results-of-my-16-killer-matches-tonight
Is this saying you're averaging 3.25 kills a game without bloodlust but you still think bloodlust should be in the game, at least in some capacity? Not snark, just making sure I understand.
Yes I do believe it should still be in the game in some form. Even though I personally didn't get effected a huge amount for the most part, I think that was also in part due to the survivors I faced sometimes not really taking advantage of some of the setups they had as well as my own personal skill as a killer. I could see how certain areas could be a problem even if it wasn't in my particular game. Its really just insurance for really bad map RNG and bad design when you're playing a killer who has to just chase and M1 for the most part.
Ideally the maps and loops would be fixed, but as is now the game is not in a state where we should be removing BL completely imho, the maps can still spit out some gross potential and some of the maps and loops are just designed poorly.
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@Darkskies said:
So cool you play demo see him very little in the trails it's very sad, totally get that console comment to 😂 interesting read again look forward to seeing more if you feel up to it.
Try not to stress out or push to hard sleep is important! Like I said before @MrPenguin people on here will try to rip apart what your doing just the nature of these forums unfortunately.
Just do it for your own enjoyment at your own pace. Thanks for the time effort your putting in towards this yet again an enjoyable read.
🐷💖
Yeah I also don't see Demo very often when I play survivor, players just aren't drawn to him I guess. He's not the easiest to learn and he's pretty punishing if you mess up to be fair (at least in my current opinion).
As for doing this again, I'm not opposed or anything, I just don't think people will be interested without something like the BL test going on. I'd just be recording normal matches. Which don't get me wrong can still be useful, I'm just not sure for what in terms of discussion potential. If something like this test happens again or I think I have something worth sharing I definitely would do something similar again.
This was definitely an exception for me in terms of sleep, I really wanted to get games in while BL was gone on both sides to see for myself the effects or lack thereof. I don't regret that decision. My opinion on the matter changed significantly and would have been very different if I only went off my survivor experience.
Yes the forums and community are a little... aggressive, and I really appreciate your concern. Thankfully I'm pretty calm most of the time, even if it might not come across that way all the time. Now that doesn't mean I don't bite back sometimes as well. Honestly my main focus is to make sure I come across as well as possible even if I disagree with someone. I have some strong opinions myself, as does any player, but I do try to keep an open mind and to stay receptive. Its one of the main reasons I included more info in this version of the data that I probably wouldn't have otherwise. It is pretty unfortunate that the community isn't more open and constructive as a whole I agree, there is a lot of unnecessary hostility. 😥
Also want to say thank you for being so nice and generally enjoyable to speak to 🙂
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@Terra92 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1770681#Comment_1770681
I had no idea they got rid of it. I've only recently come back.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1770973#Comment_1770973
I had written that under the assumption that you had similar results. Perhaps I misread what you wrote, but my understanding was that you were having poor games as Killer.
Regardless, this is potentially a harsh reality for a lot of players. No, you're not a good survivor who's been screwed over by bloodlust and suddenly you were great when it was gone. No, you're not a great killer if you rely on bloodlust.
I've never said I was a great player. Please don't take it personally if I made a judgment call on someone's perceived skill. We all like to think we're better than we actually are. The reality is that there's always someone better and likely they're about to match up with you.
Ah, well if it was just a misunderstanding then it's not a problem. I didn't take it personally, I just struck back a bit at what I perceived as kinda hostile. I'm not one to back down haha. Don't worry about it.
But my killer games also went very well for the most part as you can see. Yes I do agree for a lot of people this was a bit of a reality check.
There's definitely players better than me, I don't think I'm like, the next Otz or anything. If the ranking system was based on skill I really don't believe I'd be in red ranks at all where the top top players would be. Just with the good above average players. Where exactly on that spectrum I fall who knows.
I really think this experiment showed even more than before that the ranking system needs to be adjusted. I shouldn't be steamrolling as survivor just because they removed something like bloodlust. We basically have every skill level at "high" rank besides brand new getting matched together.
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@Withered said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1761218#Comment_1761218
You didn't put the 8, so I, a random person was dragged in ;-;
Oh my apologies, the refence system only gave me one option, or at least i thought so, so I clicked it. Will correct right away.
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@TwistedJoke65 said:
4kd all my games today playing clown and legion (two were 1 gen clutches)
Also, see how the killers who got kills played dirty or were ma boi Freddy. It sucks but sometimes it's whatcha gotta do
I didn't 4k all my games but I generally did pretty good playing killer as well during this time. I played Ghostface, Legion, and Demo. I updated the main post with the short version of those results as well for convenience for readers since this seems to be the main post getting attention.
Although, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't bloodlust turned back on at 11 am today?
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@Darkskies said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1770986#Comment_1770986
Please pay no mind to people that are trying to bring what your doing down. Honestly if it makes you happy to record your games do contuine to do so.
Personal I found it very interesting to read and thanks for the time you invested to.
🐷💖
Thanks for the support 🙂I'm not letting them stop me, I just thinks its kinda funny that some people are trying to discredit this completely with a simple "my experience was x, take my word for it but not his. He's totally lying and I'm totally not" type of attitude with short responses. Its kinda "you're experience is different than mine you must be lying or bad". I understand having skepticism but you shouldn;t just discredit everyone who say something you don't agree with.
I am enjoying talking to the people who actually want to discuss and share their experiences. Overall I feel more positive about the whole thing than negative, although I did learn some of the things people look for in these types of things. First time sharing my matches.
If you found this interesting, I also uploaded my killer results with more details in a separate thread if you feel like taking a glance. Didn't get to play as many games but was able to include more details and some things people were asking for in this one. Link here: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/208146/results-of-my-16-killer-matches-tonight
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@savevatznick said:
Nicr work here. It seems like a lot of the results are pretty map dependent, too.
Yeah that's seems to be the case, both map and killer dependent. Thanks for the compliment, trying to do more than most people on the forums than just say "my games were easy/hard take my word for it"
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@AskingForHelp said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/207873/results-of-my-23-survivor-games-today
Survivors are the ones that suck man I’m in red ranks in both sides and killers smack survivors almost every single game. Your data sucks lol
My killer games went pretty well actually as well, got mostly 3 and 4ks. The link is now included to those results in the OP. Maybe you're just not as good as you think you are if you're getting hit so much.
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@Terra92 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1768923#Comment_1768923
I think it's actually more of a realization that you're not as good as you think you are, maybe your rank or mmr has been inadvertently boosted because of your reliance on bloodlust, whether it's conscious or not.
Yes this applies to everyone else complaining about high rank games being very bad. I played several games yesterday as survivor and didn't notice any real difference in how much I died vs how often I escaped. It's always situational, depends on the day, depends on my luck, depends on who I'm facing.
My point is that there are so many variables that affect how well you do in a game, there's no possible way that straight kills/escapes markers could ever truly give any indication of change aside from anecdotal experience.
Umm, I just did my killer matches and I got very different results, mostly 3 and 4k's. I'm just editing the screenshots that I want to include in that post to block out names, but the data is up and has been up for a while now. The link is literally right above your post.
Maybe don't be so quick to just say people who might not agree with you right away are lying or bad -_- I'm not relying on bloodlust.
Sounds like maybe you're the one who's not as good as you think you are.
Yeah there are a lot of variables, but there's only so much we can do but put up our results and observations and discuss. The lack of BL in the game is having some degree of effect on matches, the more we talk about it the more we can learn about it and try to draw better conclusions as to how strong that effect is and why.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Seems like I expected it. Demogorgon is an m2 killer and shouldn't be affected all that much. Ghostface is m1 and can suck in some maps but still has no tr + potential instadown. Legion is absolutely miserable... Unless you use a certain build. Thanks for this data, not much but it fits very similarly with my experience as well.
Yeah of course I'm just trying to do my part. Thank you for your response as well, every bit of data and experience counts :)
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Ok the killer side is up, just need to add in screenshots when I wake up and edit them. Link here: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/208146/results-of-my-16-killer-matches-tonight/p1
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@Freddy96 said:
1st everyone could make up datas like this just to prove their point. Even more when they aren't backed up with screenshots that show ranks, perks, playtime, etc.
23 games are really too few to draw any conclusion and 1 player experience in a 40k players community means as much as 1 drop into the ocean
Yeah someone said that earlier in the post as well. This is a lot to just make up. I would have done a much shorter statement if I really wanted to make up data. Additionally I have nothing to gain by lying, the devs have the info.
I'm just trying to share my experience and have a discussion to see how others feel about it and how their experience is going. Any single player doesn't really matter in the game using your logic sure, but everyone should be allowed to share their thoughts as long as they are respectful about it. Otherwise why should we care about what anyone post in the forums, it's 1 person. I want to share to see what others think about it and to get other viewpoint and of course, talk about it. The whole point of the forums.
Anyway I'm also uploading my killer matches I just finished as well in a different thread, just need to double check the formatting carries over to the forums well, which it probably won't, and adjust it. Only got to do 16 but the results were much different and there is going to be much more data as requested such as screenshots and ranks. Of course I still have to prepare the screenshots by blanking out the names, but I'll have to do those later, I need to sleep right now. Pulled an all nighter for this. You're free to look if you want. If I was faking it there'd be no reason for me to post these results up as well. I'll link it in the main post here as well as in a separate comment once its done.
If we had the time I'd probably do anther survivor day and have all the extra info. But alas that's not the case. Would love to have more matches but I'm working with the situation at hand.
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@kiku said:
funny thing is, i lost almost all of my games yesterday as survivor, and more than two people per match didn't make it out. Some of the killers were prrtty damn good, some of them really bad considering most of them were red/purple, but to be honest i haven't touched dbd for about two weeks and before that i wasn't playing too much either so even tho there were some big brain plays i was mostly just ######### up and my teammates weren't helping lmao. Anyway i don't think there was any visible difference for me, and imo bloodlust mainly matters in lower ranks, where people rely on it.
I just finished my killer testing and I'm preparing the results now. It was very different, I didn't get a single 0k at all. There was a small difference in most of my matches, but not enough to really be concerned about. Just little window loops here and there that BL would have sped up a little. There were some other ones though that I really felt it. It really depended on the map, the Map RNG, and the killer I was playing. I also haven't played much recently so I get the feeling lol.
The next report has more details and some thing requested by my fellow forum members so I'll link it in this thread as well when its done. Wasn't able to get as many matches in though because life.
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It'd be interesting to see just how much of a difference it would make. I think it would really weaken the survivors a lot, probably too much. But we are rewarding survivors for getting hit as some of them love to say killers are getting rewarded for not getting hits by gaining BL.
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I'd be all for it, like the idea of not being able to equip anything at all as well. Maybe just BP offerings or even just double BP during this time.
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What's wrong with it? Nothing really.
Why do people have a problem with it? It's very unfun for a lot of people. I don't personally care if I'm camped or tunneled but the same is clearly not true for everyone. The only thing that bothers me about being camped is having to mash during struggle to buy my teammates time, and because I'm camped I might have to mash for the whole struggle phase. Make struggle automatic please.
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I'm still playing and gathering data. if anything I'm playing more than normal. Yesterday was my survivor day, today is my killer day. I will say however that the killers in this game have been frustrated for a long time (and rightfully so imo), they probably just don't want to deal with something being weaker on their side right now. I've also been hearing a lot of killers having very negative experiences without BL.
I'm doing about the same in my killer games I'm testing right now but I am noticing a difference, but my survivor games were definitely easier.
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Yeah there's a lot of rude or just overly aggressive people on the forums. There are people who are definitely worth talking too as well. I think that's just going to be the case on the internet unless we as the community do a mass shift ourselves. That's just the nature of any online community.
However I believe one of the big roadblocks in even attempting this is the streamers who have this same toxic overaggressive attitude, who also have fog whisperer status. A lot of people follow the lead of the streamers in any big game community. I really don't think those streamers should be fog whisperers. It really sends a message that BHVR is ok with that type of behavior (hah), whether they intend to or not.
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@[Deleted User] said:
One thing I'm noticing in my chases is that many killers do not understand positioning at all, and the lack of bloodlust is exposing that. Only had time for two survivor games.
A Ghostface chased me for 3 gens and ragequit on Blood Lodge because I was making a ridiculous amount of distance on every pallet break. 3 gens, 3 pallets used. He kept breaking the pallets with me towards the inside of the map. Big no no.
A Doctor got 4 outed in the second game on Lery's. Maps like that are really problematic without bloodlust as I could W for an absurd amount of time before having to actually play a tile.
Curious as to why you believe that with only 2 games, I'm assuming you have some other source of info you're drawing from? I would not be surprised however if that is the case. Its not exactly a clear thing or talked about much even if it is pretty important. I expect most players only think about how to play the loop in question and don't really consider where they could be pushing the survivor with their break.
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@Chekita said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1768478#Comment_1768478
Conversely I played survivor and I usually play killer. In 14 matches I died 4 times. Usually I die much more than this, specially because I lost rank for not touching survivor for a long time and solo queues tend to have a lower survival rate for me if playing with brown or green ranks.
As for the numbers:
14 Matches.
Hooks/ Escapes/ (Killer Rank) -my rank-
2H/4E/ (17) 11; 0H/4E/ (14 - DC) 11; 4H/4E (14)11; 0H/4E (14-DC) 11; 8H/1 E (12 Nurse, 1 suicide) 10; 7H/3E (13) 10; 3H/3E (15) 10;
10H /0E (14) 10; 3H/4E (14) 9; 12H/0E (10 - Freddy, best match) 9 ; 6H/ 4E (gave hatch to last Rank12 Spirit) 9; 3H/4E (14) 9; 7H/4E (4)8;
4H/0E (13 Camping Hag with Ebony) 8.
From those there are 2 DCs that the killer gave up because he thought he couldnt win, but I still counted, same way as in two of them a person suicided on hook (only put one there, dont remember which doctor it was that another person commited suicide on hook). The best match was against Freddy that hooked everyone 3 times without camping or tunneling, at least on my opinion. Personally I never ranked up so fast by solo queue. For other people with more experience in survivor certainly this is a piece of cake, but my personal experience is that it became much more simple to hold killer for a long period of time.
One of the matches I held an Oni for pratically the entire match and another that we died against Doctor I held him for something around a minute (preschool) and the team mate kept over the hatch without doing the generator.
Will post a link to public screenshots in the case of the doubters.
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198011550960/screenshots/
Thanks for sharing! It seems we are having similar experiences of being able to hold killers for much longer periods of time unless they have something specific about them that makes them pretty much ignore bloodlust anyway. Also in escaping a significant amount more. Freddy seems to still be doing pretty well even without BL.
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@Terra92 said:
Unfortunately most of this data is useless because we don't know your rank or the ranks of all the players, what perk builds they went with, what the killer's perks are, or what their motives were that match. We also don't know when the first chase started and ended(either through escapes or downs), when the first hook happened if any, what items anyone brought in, or how long each killer's hex(es) lasted per game.
Right now this basically just tells us very limited data and is trying to push an agenda with that limited data.
I'm not trying to push any agenda I jut recorded the results and thought to share it and my thoughts. It seems like a lot of people are having the same experiences. I also wouldn't say its useless, this is still the result of multiple games at the higher ranks and noting the general difference in performance. Just because we don't have every little detail doesn't make it useless.
Test is about BL, the games in general are being affected and I was more interested in the general change of the matches which is pretty big as far as I'm seeing. I don't think including killer perks is really necessary. I did note the builds that stood out as well if I felt like they made a significant impact. One of the matches that match stood out to me that is not included had Ruin/Undying, but that's because it didn't do much because we weren't really pushed off gens much since chases lasted so long. it didn't have an effect on the game really so I didn't think it was worth mentioning. If it helps at all I wasn't running anything crazy myself. My build was Lithe, Spine Chill, Kindred, and either Small Same or Pharmacy depending if I had a med-kit or not. My teammates were the typical survivor second chance build that you see in all your matches for the most part, I think that should go without saying. All my med-kits were green (pharmacy) and had no add-ons since I burned through them before this test started and I haven't put BP in my survivors since. I will say I had no games with keys in them, but I did have some with a mori, which were listed. There's also data you're asking for I can't provide like when the chases started.
I didn't really think to record rank at the time as I don't connect rank and skills since, well, they're not connected. I started at purple around rank 6 or 7, ended at red rank at rank 4. But if we are concerned about rank, my doesn't really matter as much as the killers. I did state the killers ranks were varied, but for additional info I'll also say they were mostly purples and a few reds, with some greens here and there if memory serves. But the results didn't change much, rank doesn't seem to be making too big of a difference since again, rank =/= skill.
I will update the post with some of this info, not that its much since I'm going off memory. A match history would be nice lol. If I can get some killer matches in I'll be sure to take down ranks as well since I underestimated the weight some people put on rank even though it doesn't mean much imbho. A high rank game doesn't mean a high skill game as I'm sure we all know. Still busy for the day and I might have to make a choice between playing and sleep.
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1) Structures are not balanced, multiple infinites or extremely safe structures/loops that basically lose you the game if you chase on them have been found with BL removed, even on the reworked maps, I ran some of them myself playing survivor yesterday. Or as you put it "in practice". Even killer shack has an infinite variant right now 9the one with the hook on the corner). There are no mind gaming these structures, and safe loops, that's why they are called safe. You can't mind game everything. Making the argument "if they run to x area just leave the chase" isn't a good one because then the survivors will just always run there. Nothing in the game should be so safe the solution is just "well just let them win chase for free and leave or chase them and lose".
2) The whole community as a majority agrees killer is the harder role by far as well as the weaker one and that the balance is more survivor favored than killer. Killers do not have "all the tools" at all. If anything I would say survivors do with their wealth of second chance perks and general map design being in their favor. I'd like to know how you're going to get an "easy" first kill on any decent survivor through potentially 2 BT's, DS, Unbreakable, 3 separate exhaustion uses, or whatever other second chance perks they might be bringing. Not to mention the potentially safe structures and loops, potential multiple safe or god pallets and potential god wall depending on the map and RNG. DS is not fine and especially not keys. Keys are a problem, so are moris, so is DS and second chance stacking, so is the general map balance. Sorry to say these point you brought up reek of survivor bias or just a misinformed opinion.
3) BL 2 probably isn't needed and BL 3 is definitely not needed. However BL 1 has a place in the game still because as expressed in point 1, structures and loops are still not where they need to be yet. They are better than before, but they are still not where they should be. If they want to remove BL completely they either need to fix their map design or give us a better solution. Right now they haven't announced anything and we only really know they're considering removing BL since they are doing this test.
4) Relying on bloodlust will not win you games as killer unless you are playing against absolute potatoes or new players. it waste too much time to got to BL 2 and 3 to be using it as a main strategy. You will lose the game unless survivors are literally not doing gens. It takes 30 seconds for BL 2 and 45 for BL 3, in DBD that's a very long time to get only 1 hit on 1 survivor.
Might have missed some of your main points but you sent a lot of text and it wasn't very concise.
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@xenotimebong said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1767977#Comment_1767977
I had a red rank teammate recently that was running both Sprint Burst and Balanced Landing. Explain to me how that person ended up in red ranks, lmao.
Because something something DS something something can loop for days with no perks something something something next DBD big streamer.
On a serious answer is probably because the current rank/emblem system does not measure skill in any good way. Certain bad killers like Legion can cheese the system to red ranks, certain other ones like Plague (I think, I don't play her much) struggle to get anything rank wise even if they do great. Then you got perks like DS and co. and the general map and game design being survivor favored (imo) that really boost up players as well. Its also much harder to lose rank once you get it than gain it, so eventually you'll get a lucky match or something and rank up. You don't have to be good to rank up, you just need to play enough.
I don't think, if the game ranked correctly I would be in red ranks where the best of the best amazing players should be. Maybe around purple or green where the just good to great above average players are. But I still get red rank whenever I decide its DBD month and I don't play many other games.
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@Chekita said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1767888#Comment_1767888
Sure is interesting how most people that comment on forums have a perfect score on both ends, survivor and killer, but most of the population in the game is not like that. Not saying you are lying, but surely a lot of people seem to be lying on forums if you follow that logic.
I wished people were a tad more honest a little more humble in with their own self image, but that seems to be asking too much on forums, since people just want to win an argument not to present things to discuss.
If you are that kind of person you would have to agree that most players won't be like that and not necessarily the game is ballanced around that as well. Also, that many people probably are faking their so called skill when talking about this subject.
Yeah I do find that kinda strange as well. There's a lot of people on both sides who make excuses for anything so its not them that needs to improve and it can make it difficult to identify actual problems sometimes. They'll find anything to blame but themselves. Just as an example, there was a pretty big wave of supposed survivors claiming BL was the only reason they got hit most of the time. Conversely there's supposed killers claiming they never got BL and if you did your bad. I guess they got constant downs before 15 seconds passed in every chase.
Both of these statements are kinda ridiculous in my opinion. You're going to have unsafe tiles you get hit and on the other side you're going to have setups where you can't do much but run after them. 15 seconds is also not crazy long either to go without hitting someone.
I also wish people where more honest and humble as well, but a lot of people think their best of the best can't possibly be bad or need to improve when in reality, most of them aren't very good if at all (in my view at least). Additionally we do most likely have people making stuff up to push their narrative or just not considering valid arguments because they just want to be right, as you said, or just to get a change they want. I don't think I'm amazing top tier or anything, but I do believe I'm at least good/decent at the game.
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@xenotimebong said:
I escaped almost all of my survivor matches and 4Kd almost all of my killer matches today, and the ones I didn’t 4K were either me really messing up or me being merciful.
I think most people are just not very good at this game tbh. If you’re a survivor that can loop even half way decently and do a gen you’re better than like 90% of the survivor player base, and if you’re a killer that doesn’t just hold W across the map like a dog on its lead you’re better than 90% of killers.
I’m not really sure what to think of this experiment to be honest. Some games feel different and others feel about the same.
yeah I can see that being the case, it doesn't help that bad and good and great players are all paired together both in games and in ranks. Red and purple ranks are full of players of every skill level. The ranking system really needs addressing.
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@Negi said:
Why aren't you getting complete potatoes? Yesterday was almost unbearable for me with the stupid crap I saw in red ranks.
Solo Q makes me want to quit every time, I hate survivor challenges but gotta do them cause Battle pass and FOMO.
I still got a few potatoes (like that awful rank 4 Claudette, I only remember her rank because I was shocked), but it might be that no BL is just really buffing survivors that much or something else. Hard to definitively say with just 1 day of testing.
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@Xyvielia said:
This info would have been better received had you screen shot the post match so we all could physically see the Ranks of the survivors involved and the each of the killer’s Rank.
As MMR is currently off, this makes a difference
Yeah I see that now, I had tunnel vision for the results and such, didn't really think about the ranks too much since ranks aren't really a good measure of much besides time in game. MMR has been off for effectively all of DBD's career, I do think they should have gotten a good MMR system before testing this. Priorities have seemed very off for a while now :/
Given its been off for most of the game existing and rank not meaning much, I don't necessarily agree with it making a huge difference.
But this is the state they're testing in so its all we have to work with for now. I'll make sure to make note of the ranks if I get to do another session. I feel like putting in 23 screen shots though would make the post way to long. But maybe that's just me.
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@senki527 said:
This could be fake data from a Killer main.
I could open a same thread, and give data of average kills 3.8 if I wanted too.
And 23 games is too small of a size pool.
Yeah but pretty much anything said on the forums could be fake. I have nothing to really gain from faking data either since the devs will have the real numbers as well. 23 games could be small, but its all I was able to fit in. I believe just one weekend is also too small of a time frame but here we are.
Also that's a lot of typing, details, and formatting to make up. If I wanted to fake it I would make it much shorter and just claim the averages or something. I would also probably throw in different maps Like Midwitch, Haddonfiled and stuff much more since those are problem maps. I got Badham so many times, or at least it felt that way. I don't want to see that map for a while.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
This sounds like some really inexperienced Killers. Like, I am not good as Killer, but even I get like 2,7 average Kills and 8,something Hooks in my Killer games during the experiment.
Those numbers you posted make 1,1 Kills per game and 4 Hooks per game. This is alarmingly bad. I mean, the numbers of both of us are low (23 on your side, 19 on my side), but I cannot imagine that either you and me only get Potatoes in all of the games.
Can't say, that's just been my experience so far. It'd be hard for me to believe I just got an ungodly lucky streak since I'm usually very unlucky and just well, its not likely to begin with. But I still need to see my experience on the other side, I just hope I have the time to.
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@MrLimonka said:
You know, maybe telling us what rank you are would actually make this data more valuable.
My rank, and rank in general, doesn't really matter and is not an indication of skill, but I started in purples around 6 or so and climbed to red pretty quickly. Additionally my rank doesn't matter as much as the killers rank, which I stated were varied at the beginning, as usual. Mostly purples and reds and some greens and yellows here and there. The data didn't really change between the killers of higher rank, since again, rank doesn't really matter too much for a few reasons.
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I've been playing survivor all day today, its very noticeable. Me and even my rando teammates are running loops or just holding w much longer and kills are way down.
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@Kolonite said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1764723#Comment_1764723
Scott Jund thinks only boosted killers need it and Otz doesn’t think it’s a big deal.
uhh don't know about Otz but Scott said at the very least leave in tier 1 since maps aren't great yet.
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Currently primarily on PS4, Badham is very dark and pretty hard to see in.
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@LeleLP said:
They’re removing it for 1 weekend to gather data. It’s not permanent. There is no guarantee what they plan to do with yet. People are making it seem like this is gonna be a for sure thing. No one knows yet. Chill out. By not playing you are not giving them the data they can use to determine what steps to take next.
People are talking about it and that's fine. They wouldn't be doing the test if they weren't at least considering removing it. I wouldn't downplay it so much. I do agree on your last point that not playing doesn't help, but that's their decision I guess. People have a right to be a little tiffed since BL is pretty clearly still needed with the problems cropping up without it. The map design is better, but its not to the point where BL is removeable without causing a lot of problems. Even keeping just BL 1 would be fine, but not total removal.
I'm writing down the results of all my matches of the day (playing survivor) and oh boy has the difference been noticable.
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Yeah this sounds good to me, BL 1 is usually the only one I ever activate unless I got extremely unlucky with a tile chain.
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So first off if there's still maps that need bloodlust we shouldn't take it out till they are fixed.
Secondly not all the reworked maps are good. Just had a match on the Groaning Storehouse and the main building was disgusting.
Thirdly there have been multiple infinites or extremely safe loops found without BL. Even shack can be a infinite now if you get the one with the hook in the corner so I've heard.
The map design is not where it needs to be for BL to go away unfortunately. I'm 6 survivor matches in right now, have not had more than a 1k, and those 1k's were tunnels. Map design might be better but not good.
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Been playing survivor today, killers are noticeably easier to run and loop and are doing markedly worse. 5 matches in, no match so far has been more than a 1k and those 1k's were tunnels.
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So I'm recording the results of all my matches, currently playing survivor, it really doesn't look good for the killer side. 4 matches in currently, and in order its been 0k, 0k, 1k, 1k, and hook wise its been 3 hooks, 2 hooks, 5 hooks, 3 hooks. I will post a more detailed list when I'm done playing for this session.
More detailed List: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/207873/results-of-my-23-survivor-games-today
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@Chekita said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1764858#Comment_1764858
On that topic. I've just watched the videos from OhTofu and Scott on the topic of the experiment and both are pro removing it, BUT with caveats. OhTofu thinks there are valid reasons for keeping it and that there are still strong loops in the game and set ups that make it very, very difficult to catch survivors. As for Scott I thought it was very condecending in one way, still he points out the same thing saying he would keep BL lvl 1 because of those same setups.
I'm not saying their word is gospel. I think it's just interesting to point out such examples so people dont go out saying we are simply ranting out for no reason when we are simply arguing the reasons for and against it and it's weaknesses. Someone that is unknown here people can say: "but how many hours you have in the game?" and such. Those have 5k+ hours in the game, which is not an average player, so no one can say they are not talking from some kind of experience.
As for the reason I think Scott is being condecending in his video is because he repeats this mantra that only bad players use BL lvl 2 or 3. In some occasions, I don't know about you guys, but I don't win every game. If you don't win every game, if you are good or bad you will notice, if you really pay attention, that BL1 or 2 made that chase you would not get the person from 1cm of the pallet. That will happen more often the more you play against good groups of survivors.
When I play against purple ranks, for instance, it's very rare that 3 of them don't die because they dont know how to use the loops very well. But for those who know (usually on red ranks, but not necessarily), they can pretty much make themselves free to roam the map. Depending on the position of stronger loops and setups in the map, even with a lot of hooks and a 3 gen situation you are against the corner. Because you know if you chase on that direction you will lose the game.
Another thing that I think it's condecending is because not everyone plays this game as a profession, with 5k hours. People might start losing some perspective to such a point. That is not the case I when you hear OhTofu, but it is in the case of Scott in my opinion.
Yes that's very true, although I will say Tofu kinda messed up, in my opinion, because he focused very heavily on the 1v1 aspect a lot when this is not a 1v1 game. Scotts overall attitude is kinda... hoity toity high and mighty but he also makes some good points. I'd be fine with just BL 1 as well, my main takeaway so far with the test and listening to a lot of people is that no, the game is not ready for the complete removal of bloodlust.
People who focus on "hours and rank" really kinda just use it to try and dismiss any opinion they disagree with, I don't think I've ever used that as a point and I've played for a long time at high rank. People can play a ton and have no idea what their talking about, people can play a ton and still be bad, people can be bad but understand the game. At the end of the day what matters is the arguments and points they bring up. Its not that rank and hours have no place at all, but not the way people usually use them.
Yes the maps and map RNG are more often than not, still survivor favored, especially against the majority of the player base, even the good ones. Maybe not streamer live my life on this game good (not that all of them are good), but they are the exception and it seems like a decent amount of them think BL is still needed as stated.
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@voorheesgt said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1764858#Comment_1764858
I've played as every 110 killer and yeah it's a joke. Even not so safe loops can be exploited for 2 gens against hag and deathslinger now. ######### are these devs doing? Hire I decent team that can evaluate balance... Fire whoever decides the direction of the fixes and balance... And maybe real problems would be addressed. For ######### sake their lead developer didn't understand why OoO was an issue because of survive+pick rates.
Hey BHVR try playing your game more than just casually. Maybe it'll be more productive than these "tests" where you'll pool data without understanding it.
I understand your frustration with them believe me, they really do need to improve on their balancing and understanding of their own game. If they're not capable themselves they could at least listen to the parts of the community they should be who understand the game better (granted that's not the majority) or hire/ask people who do.
I do worry they will use the data from the test and draw the wrong conclusion but for now we just have to wait and see.
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@voorheesgt said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1764845#Comment_1764845
That's because in order to not need bloodlust you'd have to assume the level design has actually been fixed and not just improved. This team is better at band-aids than balancing so... Leave the band-aid on.
Yeah I 100% agree, the game is not in a state where bloodlust can be removed. I thought that before the test and the test is only enforcing it so far. Maybe that'll change but its not looking likely.
There's a pretty vocal group of people that are just like "OnLy BaD kIlLeRs gEt BloOdlUst" and completely ignoring the issue of map and loop design not being where it needs to be at all to remove it. I think that outlook on them is being generous, maybe the bias is just strong in them, but we will see.
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@The_Bootie_Gorgon said:
and if we are going to "streamerZ", ohtufu is pro bloodlust..
So is Scott from his most recent video. Not that streamers are the end all be all, but they are very loud in the sense their opinions influence a lot of people. I wouln't even really use them as a measuring stick, most peoples lives are not the game.
From what I'm seeing and hearing a lot of infinites or close enough have popped up. Even shack with a hook on the corner is apparently an infinite now.
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- I just thought it would be overall bad for the game, that seems to be the case so far. Been watching a friend play survivor since I didn't feel good today to play myself (I feel like I'd skew the data playing while not feeling well), and the infinites or close enough are still very much in the game without BL from what it looks like.
- Changed? Sure anything can be changed. Removed? No, the map design is still not there yet.
- I don't really think it needs changing directly, I would change the maps so there's less safety and less variation so we can get the game to the point where it can be removed safely.
- Mixed but a little on the worse side actually. This test didn't help much.
Will test myself when I'm feeling better, but I'm not hearing good things so far :/
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I mean, I'm torn. I like them aesthetically but gameplay wise is a whole different story.
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I don't think about it in terms of newer players as they will struggle a lot regardless, that's just the nature of being new. No one, or at least no one decent, relies on bloodlust for hits as that's a losing move (see paragraph 4).
Really its just that the map design is have much survivor favored aspects and that's with bloodlust still in. With it removed there are a lot of too safe/strong structures and loops (funbus, house of pain, cow tree, ect.) and maps where survivors running in a straight line take forever to just catch up to (midwitch, Mothers Dwelling, ect.). These were already a pain before, let alone now. Then we have the RNG aspect that can give you 14 pallets that are mostly safe with chainable tiles. It's more for the lack of map balance than for the sake of newer players from the way I see and understand it. If you get bad map RNG, hey here's BL. Oh you didn't? Ok it won't activate.
We also have to keep in mind the game is 4v1, we can't allow killers to take too long to get 1 down on 1 survivor if we want the game to continue to move away from being survivor favored and more towards balanced. Yes survivors should be rewarded for playing well, but that doesn't mean they should be able to string the killer along for multiple gens at a time. As others have stated as well, it will mostly by the already weak killers (so most of them) that will suffer with this change. Spirit and Nurse who don't care about BL will be fine.
I don't really see it as primarily hand holding since if you rely on bloodlust to get hits you're probably going to lose since you lose so much time (it takes 30 seconds for BL 2, and 45 for BL 3, and it goes away once you hit someone once among other things), and as I said earlier we can't let 1 survivor have too much sway when there's 4 that need to be downed potentially 3 times each. Just to reiterate, it's there for the bad map design that's still in the game. A decent killer will only get bloodlust when the structure demands it, and a bad one will still lose with it. Unless the survivors are playing very poorly of course and allowing the killer that much time.
If the map design was better or if killers were the stronger side, I could be all for it, but in DBD's current state I don't think its a good move.
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I have switched from doing that for a while now to just being fine with the 3k since that a win in my eyes now. However playing for hatch is honestly really annoying on both sides as its kinda just down to luck and as others have said, if a killer wants to go for the big win, that is the play to make. The survivor will bleed out eventually but its just really unfun for everyone involved.
Its just that hatch is a fundamentally flawed mechanic the rewards the survivor(s) for playing poorly or allows dumb things with keys. If hatch wasn't a thing this wouldn't happen. Yeah the last survivor is screwed but well, they should be, the gens didn't get done, the team failed the objective. We don't stop one survivor from leaving if the killer got no kills so I believe the most fair thing to do would be to remove it or rework it.
If we want to prevent them from just holding the game hostage by hiding just start the EGC immediately when only one survivor is left or rework the idle crow mechanic or something so it starts after way too long has passed with no chase if we're worried about multiple people hiding indefinitely (which can still happen in live btw).
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@konchok said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1761594#Comment_1761594
The stats provided are useful in terms of overall balance when you include context. There are 2 major factors that determine how often the average player can win with a killer. The first is the raw power of the killer and the second is how easy they are to play.
Nurse is very high in raw power, but extremely difficult to play. Therefore she has the lowest kill rate in the game. This also makes playing vs the nurse fair, because only a very good player can use her to her potential. Despite being the most powerful killer in the game she is also the most fair.
Now let's look at the opposite end of the spectrum. We have Freddy, he's extremely easy to play and his synergy with already meta perks is so well known. Players who play vs Freddy are playing vs him and all of his passive abilities. While Freddy is not as powerful as Nurse, Freddy is unfair because he doesn't require skill to play.
If you understand how to derive and understand raw data when considering context and factors then the raw data is incredibly useful. But you just keep trucking along about how we should ignore facts and how your opinions that lack any merit at all holds more weight.
I don't think we should ignore the facts at all but using stats to just say "well killers are op look at the kill rates, they're high" is just misguided and not the case. In this case its "Killer winrate is literally at its peak. How is it survivor favored?", the point in question I was refuting was using the raw data without context at all. If you're going to talk about my reply to someone else at least look at what they said, for context since ironically it seems like you ignored it.
In fact I did my own small inferences of the data when they released it that went over pretty positively. No where did I say ignore the facts and no where did I say my opinion was more important. We do take in context and raw data can be useful, and in fact I used pretty much that exact Nurse example. There's also much more to it then just those 2 factors such as map control, stall, mobility ect. Raw power to get downs is part of it yes, and so it ease of use, but there's also more at play. Please don't blindly assume and put things in peoples mouth in the future thanks. You cant use solely raw data for balance inference, that was one of my points. You need context and player experience/knowledge.
Quote and source:
"But no you can't take these stats as the end all be all for balance, especially without considering why they are what they are. Like Nurse being harder to play so her kill rate is low from people learning her.
Another example is everyone lower than Legion has some sort of aim or learning curve higher than most killers, but everyone over him is pretty simple. So he's the weakest simple killer and those with lower kill rates than him are probably because of having to learn that particular killer or aim. So while of you go off this he's fine, in reality he's still pretty weak if the survivors are decent. Exception being Wraith, he's just weak without good add-ons."
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1701663#Comment_1701663