MrPenguin
MrPenguin
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@FellowKillerMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1763418#Comment_1763418
It's sort of meme-y but using insidious to counter BT; see someone going for the hook, stand still, until unhook completes, and continue chase. BT isn't incredibly popular anymore, though, so it's not all that great.
I still see BT and BT abusers a lot in my games, so I guess that's just a difference in experience. Yeah you could do that but taking into account the time it takes for Insidious to activate then the time for the TR to actually decrease enough (to my knowledge it doesn't immediately shut off but get smaller over a second or two) its probably not amazing, so yeah a little meme-y like you said lol.
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@gabrielkyle said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1763409#Comment_1763409
Yes, because a map where you shouldn't be able to get in chase to prove your point (Otherwise you've already closed the gap, as we know bloodlust doesn't activate unless you're in chase) much less get bloodlust, is logical
Bloodlust still reduces the overall time once you get into chase range and helps against just holding w on poorly designed maps like Midwitch or dummy thicc loops. So you're point isn't valid. If you would think a little further that's obvious.
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@Zeidoktor said:
You can also play as killers who don't really benefit from Bloodlust life the Doctor, who loses Bloodlust whenever he uses Shock Therapy.
That'll skew the data, you should play who you normally play if you're going to, otherwise you just skewing the results even more. If everyone plays Spirit for example, who doesnt care about BL, even if bloodlust is needed in the game right now it'll turn into "well the data says killers didn't do worse so we're removing it".
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@WhoNeedsHalpert said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1763418#Comment_1763418
That it is a camping perk
Camping isn't inherently bad. You can use it to stealth by a gen for example to see if yo hid well enough to catch someone off guard. There's nothing wrong with camping. Against certain teams it'll lose you the game, against others they'll get punished. Its a risk-reward.
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I know plenty who don't plan to get a PS5 and PS4 will eventually break if from age if not anything else. Really hoping cross progression come out for console or they will just stop playing the game completely. They refuse to redo years of grind and progress not to mention exclusives they can't get anymore and I do not blame them.
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Guess all killers better pray to RNG they don't get fun bus, Haddonfield, cow tree, or Midwitch and co. because they wont have BL to rely on, totally not the map design being bad in these areas.
No one relies on bloodlust to get a hit, its a band-aid for the map design.
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"Killer's shouldn't be relying on bloodlust"
They wouldn't be if the maps and loops were better designed and balanced. But they aren't so here we are testing removing the band-aid before the wound is healed (removing BL before more maps are fixed). The only time bloodlust is really popping is on things like fun bus, cow tree, tile strings Haddonfield, Midwitch ect. It doesn't matter how good of a M1 chaser you are, those structures and maps are super safe even with BL, let alone without it.
As long as the match has the potential to be this borked from map design or rng, I don't think we should be thinking about removing BL.
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@WhoNeedsHalpert said:
The fact that insidious is still a perk disgusts me to no end, but that's just par for the course for BHVR, they'll just make a new skin and move along
Insidious can have its uses, albeit niche. As far as I can think of, its really only basement Bubba or other 1-shot killers that its kinda gross on. Do you have other problems with it?
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Yes because being good means that the extremely safe loops and maps just cease to function and holding w on midwich no longer gains as much distance. /s
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@Pizzaman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1762650#Comment_1762650
Putting safeguards in place may also skew the data.
The only important thing is, to perform the experiment in a timeframe where a lot of people play (which I think is done by doing it on a weekend), so that attempts to deliberately skew the data will just be regular noise because the majority of people are playing the game as usual.
yeah I could understand certain safeguards causing issues. I don't think stopping people from suiciding would be too crazy, or at least tracking how many do. On a side note, struggle should really just be automatic anyway.
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@Haruko said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1760593#Comment_1760593
What's the OoO reasoning? Sorry I only started playing this game again this year so I'm lost on the story.
They said OoO wasn't strong because the person using it doesn't survive as much. Not even knowing the game well enough to realize that's because people will do everything they can to kill the OoO user because of how busted the perk is. Camp, tunnel, bleedout, as long as they die.
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@NotACompPlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1761989#Comment_1761989
Yeah, if the killer is getting bloodlust because the survivor is better than them, then it's a bad mechanic, we shouldn't reward players for playing poorly.
Yes but bloodlust was mainly there to help against the devs poor map design, which still isn't great. DBD has a lot of things the reward bad play: DS, BT, hatch, ect. I don't believe BL is high on that list since getting bloodlust usually meant you wasted so much time you're probably going to lose the game. Wish they would have chose something more important.
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Yeah there's no safeguards in place to stop either side from skewing results. They could disable unhook attempts as well and make struggle automatic for survivors, idk what you could really do for killers.
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@Predated said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1761594#Comment_1761594
Not using the killrate as a measure of balance, im using the killrate to indicate overperformance. Which is undoubtedly true, because otherwise Pig wouldnt be able to get that many kills.
Mori's still have an issue without Bloodlust, however, it removes the possibility for weaker players to get off a mori as easy as they currently can. Let alone that it definitely helps now that the Undying+Ruin combo exists, which allows killers to essentially chase a single player untill they reach Bloodlust 3 before survivors cleansed the right or final totem.
"bloodlust is to help against the poor map design" This is false. Bloodlust was implemented to help in chases, not on map design. Bloodlust isnt going to help you move from point A to point B faster, it just helps you chase a survivor faster. A survivor that you can cut off and probably hit before Bloodlust even comes into existance. If you loop around the same pallet untill Bloodlust appears, then you're simply a worse mindgamer than that survivor. Point being, good killers dont rely on Bloodlust, at best they use it to their advantage. Bad killers rely on bloodlust. If it were the same for Mori's, they would have been dropped long ago. But weak killers dont need a mori to rely on, they can rely on bloodlust.
All you need is chasing the strongest survivor with Bloodlust 3 to win the game, its easy to go after the weakest player afterwards.
And I've been playing this game before Bloodlust was even implemented. It currently has it's place for 3 killers, all other killers dont need Bloodlust to win against survivors that are equally skilled other than to give an advantage to a killer that is skilled worse. Considering people care about skill a lot, its a bit unfair to give killers a practically free advantage to that. I mean, there is a reason they didnt add in 120% movement speed killers. Besides, like I said, Bloodlust has been on the list longer than even Mori has. And the devs truly want to keep in Ebony Mori somehow, while Bloodlust was a 4 year old quick patching job to an issue that needed a different solution and was never meant to be a permanent mechanic.
Overperformance is a balance issue. So you're saying Nurse is super weak and pig is too strong? That's not the case at all. Why does it matter if a weaker player can use it? That's not an issue. Ruin undying will do nothing if you chase 1 person since ruin does nothing if you dont get people off gens. They wont be looking for totems if ruin's not doing anything. Again, separate issue. No its not false, map design also includes loops not getting from point A to B, so also chases. I didn't say map size, I said design. Chases need help because the map design is bad. Good or bad killers can't do anything about a loop that's too safe, or a string of them because they got unlucky, thats the point of bloodlust, to help against the bad map design or getting unlucky.
You can't win using that strategy, you will waste so much time that the other survivors will just do the gens and leave and you will lose unless the survivors are potatoes. Bloodlust 3 doesn't matter that much, its 1 and 2 that come into play normally. The only killers getting tier 3 are bad ones who have probably already lost the match at that point. You want to remove tier 3 only I'm all for it since it doesn't really matter.
It doesn't matter how long you've been playing, your point still stands as incorrect. You still don't know what you're talking about as far as I can see. Time playing doesn't factor in. If people care about skill so much there's bigger issues to tackle like DS, hatch, keys, mori's, iri heads, loop design, pallet normalization, and other things that give free advantage. With the loop design still being less than ideal to put it lightly, there's no reason to take out the thing that was put in to help against it, especially when they're adding in god walls to the maps.
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@Predated said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1760829#Comment_1760829
Killer winrate is literally at its peak. How is it survivor favored? Because you still can lose games as killer? Bloodlust actually has been on the priority list for a long time, it's a big contributor to why mori's are broken in the first place: It allows killers who are not skilled enough to take down players who obviously are more skilled than that killer. If killers who are not experienced enough but use a mori cant even reach their target, then the mori issue gets dropped, right?
I mean, what use will disabling ebony mori do, when bloodlust was a big contributor to that mori in the first place? I mean, those killers most likely had Bloodlust on t3 before they could even down the survivor for a mori.
Using the kill rate as a measure of balance is already very misguided as the devs, the community, and anyone who actually knows the game well will tell you. Otherwise Nurse is the weakest killer in the game and Pig is OP. Clearly not the case.
Bloodlust and mori's are 2 separate issues, I don't understand how you're connecting the two. Mori's are unbalanced on their own and bloodlust is to help against the poor map design since its not fixed yet. I also don't know why the mori issue, or any issue for that matter, would get dropped just because a bad player uses it.
Also if they're going to tier 3 Bloodlust you they wasted a lot of time. I haven't seen a tier 3 bloodlust in a long time. But as a mechanic bloodlust still has its place as the map design is still not fixed.
Mori's aren't an issue because of bad players they're an issue because they cut the killer objective by over half. Disabling Mori's would at least address a big community issue. I rarely see people complain about bloodlust and when they do its usually entitled survivors who don't know the game anywhere near where they think they do.
There are plenty of more important issues they could tackle or test.
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@TheClownIsKing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1761401#Comment_1761401
Hence why there’s a wall you can break so that it’s no longer safe for any survivor foolish enough to run there again.
Again, how about no walls for a badly designed loop and just have a well designed loop to begin with. This is just a free out for survivors which they have more than enough of or a free time waster. Its not like survivors are lacking in safety right now and its not like killers have more time than they need either.
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@TheClownIsKing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1761218#Comment_1761218
Survivors need to have SOME safe spaces to run to. Otherwise why should they bother running at all when spotted. Those loops are safe for ONE survivor ONCE only. Unless a killer stubbornly refuses to break it.
There's plenty of safe loops in the game still. Safe is fine but there's such a thing as TOO safe. This still leaves the problem of the killer being in a lose-lose with the current implementation of these god walls. Nothing should be 100% safe for the 4 in a 4v1. Not to mention tile stringing that can occur from the wall like another above me stated.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1761235#Comment_1761235
With that logic shack is an infinite once the pallet is down if you don't break it.
These "god loops" are the equivalent to a survivor insta throwing a pallet, except even worse as you can break it before the survivors gets there.
The old actual god loops had no counter outside of leaving them or going through the whole thing and losing instantly. They were actual safe havens. these ones you break the wall,you go back to pressuring gens and laugh as everybody that goes to them is almost certainly getting hit
Calling these loops that outright become death zones after a 2 seconds animation god loops is a joke. honestly makes me think you never experienced the old god loops.
it is, that's why its called a god pallet. No its not as bad as the old god loops, but its still one. These are just god walls. Not as bad does not mean its not still a problem. Either way the killer has to either waste time or lose a chase, so its just a lose-lose and bad design.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
I love how in all of these the answer is also in the frame.
It is NOT a godloop is you can make it unsafe in 2 seconds
it is a god loop until you do. If you can break a door that doesn't make it not a door because you can. God loops just shouldn't be in the game period, even if its a one use one. You're forcing killers into a another lose lose situation.
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@lowiq @TheClownIsKing @Withered8 @NomiNomad
or we could not have a god loop with a pre-dropped pallet to begin with. How about just remove the wall and no god loop at all since those are bad for the game and just make the killer either waste their time now or lose a chase later.
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Test changing/removing things people think are big issues like DS, Keys, Moris, ect.?
No lets remove bloodlust while not making loops any weaker when Killer is the overall weaker role. Oh boy.
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@Freki said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1760819#Comment_1760819
lets remove hatch as a test over thanksgiving weekend....... i bet it'd go over even better than this is
Yeah because no one really likes playing for hatch and it just undermines the whole match.
Either escape by the gens or die, that should be it really. Your team did bad? Ok try again next time.
There's so many actual problems in the game they could be testing (Gen times, DS, Spirit/Freddy, Mori's, Keys, map offerings, pallets, hatch, ect.), but they chose this one...
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The game is still survivor favored and yet we're testing making killers weaker. Ouch.
Why not test something else like less pallets, or disabling DS, disable keys and mori's. You know something people have been asking for, not bloodlust which is very low on the priority list for most people if its even on it.
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@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1760637#Comment_1760637
The best should win! A killer shouldn't get a kill because of a mechanic.
So we should remove hatch, a survivor shouldn't get an escape because of a mechanic, yes?
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killers on every platform tunnel kills because its encouraged by the game. The same way survivors on every platform tunnel gens.
Doing the objective quickly is best for both sides. If you have a problem with killers tunneling you have a problem with killers doing their objective well.
Either both sides should be allowed to do their objective well or both sides should agree not to for the sake of fun. Can't have one standard for one side and a different one for the other.
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Yeah. So many post about tunneling like its just people being mean when its encouraged by the game by design if you want to do well. Blame the game not the players.
If people want a group to play their way then they can go play customs or something.
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Because unfortunately the best thing a killer can/should do is get someone out the game asap. That's the real flaw in the game design if you have a problem with tunneling, the game is designed in a way where that's what they want killers to do.
Also, seeing as survivors see no problem tunneling gens to 100%, I don't think its fair to ask the other side not to do the same for their objective. If you want killers to stop tunneling kills than we need survivors to stop doing gens so fast as well. Not going to happen.
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I believe they were overall unhealthy for the game. Only really useful for key an basement builds which are really unfun and/or unfair for the other side.
The anti-map offerings could stand to have a refund function if no map offering is used.
Then they are also taking up more space in the bloodweb which could have much more useful things. Usually a waste of BP. Just another reason to have a sell option or something.
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I find some of her voice clips hilarious. Like she gets whacked and is just like "BWAHUGH!". Besides that she do be screaming when you hook her or something, which is nice in a horror themed game. She's very expressive, I think the voice actor did a good job.
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Grudge is a strong word, but they definitely drop in priority for me because that's a pretty strong indicator of a boosted survivor whose a glorified shackle to for the team. I will prioritize myself and the other teammates since they contribute much more.
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Self-care is fine, just use it at the right times. It gets a bad rep because of a lot of players using it when they shouldn't. Factoring in time it can take to find someone and depending on if they even heal you, it can be pretty good. Again just don't use it when someone is on a hook right near you or waste time running to the corner to use it.
if you're really concerned about time wasting you can bring botany or Desperate measures or something as well, but then that's 2 perk slots.
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I always liked facing him.
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@RoboMojo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1739821#Comment_1739821
The issue is that the killer's objective is to take out another player and considering that there is no ability to respawn in this game, death is permanent. As a result, tunneling someone out of the game so that they die faster is actively obstructing their ability to play the game. No one wants to que up for a match, load in and then die two minutes into the match starting because the killer didn't like you in particular. For the record, I do find swf groups who run 4 toolboxes with prove thyself and adrenaline to be a bit problematic because unless the killer sweats themselves a river, it's pretty hard to even get a 2k against that. Good luck beating that if you're just playing to have a chilled game. At the end of the day, we're all in this to have fun. Ruining someone else's experience in a multiplayer game, just so that you can win in a videogame is scummy in my opinion but hey, no one's perfect. Besides, whether you win or lose in a game is not going to matter in a weeks time.
Tunneling gens is obstructing everyone's ability to play the game since you end the match faster. Doesn't mean its a problem inherently. Unless the fundamentals of the game changes, doing either objective is "unfun" for the other side. It's not "they didn't like you in particular", that's the gameplay that's encouraged by game design. If I someone wants to play their side well, which most do, that's what they should do. They should be tunneling 1-2 people out the game asap as killer and tunneling gens to 100% as survivor. Not leaving a person 33% dead or leaving a gen 33% done to work on a different untouched one.
If anything its a problem with the game design not the player playing a certain way because of it. Change the game so tunneling is no longer encouraged and then we can talk about it being potentially problematic. As the game is now I can't reasonably blame either side for tunneling their objective, that's what they should be doing. Knowing that, it doesn't really bother me when it's done.
If it really bothers everyone so much to be tunneled, then come together as a community and also agree to not focus gens or something. But I heavily doubt that's going to happen.
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@RoboMojo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1735426#Comment_1735426
You think hardcorde tunnelling and face camping is totally fine? Lol.
Tunneling is the smart play since you want someone out the game asap. Camping can be the right call against certain teams and a horrible call against others. So no I don't see a problem with the killer doing their objective the same way I don't see a problem with survivors doing theirs and tunneling gens. Do you also have a problem with survivors doing a gen till completion?
The only problem I see is with the game design that encourages these tactics, the bugs, and the balance of the game. Those weren't an option. I blame the game not the players.
It doesn't bother me when its done to me except for the fact I have to slam my button/keys for the struggle phase.
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I understand why that frustrated you. Its a running joke in my friend group that "the randoms" are 9/10 times potatoes in any game, especially DBD. Of course they blame anyone but themselves.
Yes the ranking system is borked, always has been. Hopefully the MMR system works well whenever they bring it back, but I'm not counting on it at all. I've just accepted its either play with people I know, or play with the potatoes.
Sad part is, you don't even need coms to do well. I've played frequently with friend without them and we still do great. It really is just bad players.
My condolences for your experience.
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I play Billy once in a blue moon or less, guess I'm a god since I can hit the saw. He's really not difficult but maybe that's just a me thing.
However yes the challenges can be a little silly with what they ask, 30 seconds is not very long.
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@notameatybassriff98 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1737039#Comment_1737039
Firstly, Toxicity isn't "killers having fun" it's using builds and playing in a way that's unfun to play against
Secondly, 1 killer vs 4 survivors, the fun of the 4 survs immediately outweigh the fun of the killer (and no i'm not saying to let survs escape but just to play in a was that's fun and fair to survs and yourself)
1) Playing to win is not toxic. Also that's not what toxic means. Otherwise everyone is being toxic since anything benefiting your side is unfun for the other. Unfun =/= toxic.
Examples:
Toxic: T-bagging, clicking flashlights, trapping a survivor in a corner, hitting a survivor on the hook.
Not toxic: Doing gens, flashlight saves, camping, tunneling.
Unbalanced, but not toxic: DS, Gen times/rush, second chance perks, Iri heads huntress, moris, keys, playing Spirit/Nurse/Freddy.
2) Everyone's fun is equally important. This statement is just entitled in favor of the survivors. The killer should have as much fun as anyone else in the match.
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Because they are. Not to mention how easy their power is to counter.
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Where's the none option lol.
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@Thatgurl_again said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1718202#Comment_1718202
Look I understand, BUT the thing that get me is that killers play as if everyone has ds or completely ignore it and complain when they get the stun.
Strong Killer perks pared with other Strong killer perks are the same.
It's a two way street
Yeah anything overbearing on either side should be addressed, like when they changed forever Freddy. Its just second chance stacking has been a problem for way too long and is much stronger than what killers can put together most of the time and its in every game.
I just don't know what you expect them to do. Either you play around the perk and still take a loss and even potentially still get stunned, or you don't and get stunned for playing the way the game encourages you to and take a loss. Its a lose-lose. I don't blame them for complaining the same way I don't blame people for complaining about Spirt or Freddy. Its poorly designed and should be criticized.
it is a two way street, but that goes for complaints/criticism as well. You don't like tunneling? Well stop doing gens so fast and unhooking in front of me. Why can you do you objective just fine but I can't do mine? You don't like camping? Stop running in for saves before I even get anywhere. You want free hatch? Give some killers a free sacrifice in a bad game. You don't want me to run this and that well don't run second chances and exhaustion.
I don't expect survivors not to tunnel gens, I don't expect killers not to tunnel kills likewise. Especially because survivors should tunnel gens, killers should tunnel kills. Both are optimal for their respective sides. If we don't want one we need to stop the other as well. Two way street indeed. Tunnel gens tunnel friends.
What gets me is the double standards and survivors never looking at themselves as part of the problem as well or considering the other side. But since that's not going to change, so lets just fix the balance issues instead of worrying about how the other side wants you to play because they feel bad about it.
I blame the game, not the players.
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@Thatgurl_again said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1718076#Comment_1718076
Well people wouldnt need to bring ds if killers dont tunnel. Some survivors do complain about everything and dont even know what tunneling is but I do. Ds is fine as long as it's not abused. Do you get what I mean?
A) Tunneling is the way the game should be played in its current state. Unfortunately getting 1 person out asap is what you should do. Tunneling shouldn't be seen as "bad" on the player, but on the game design. I'd wish they'd change it so that was no longer the case. You can choose not to tunnel if you want, but you will be handicapping yourself.
B) DS has been show to hit people who don't tunnel time and time again. At the very least this should be changed.
C) It might not be as big a problem if it wasn't abused, but it is.
I understand what was said here, but I don't believe this outlook is a correct one.
Also what @Seiko300 said just above is very valid.
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@Thatgurl_again said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1717699#Comment_1717699
Ds has counters, the thing with killers is that they dont like those counters. If they leave ds as it is and buff something killer related then those could potentially cancel each other.
Yeah those "counters" aren't good enough. I don't care if people like it or not, but considering there's no way to actually counter it without taking a loss somehow, and all those losses are pretty big, they're not good enough. DS has no actual counter that nullifies it beside PH cages.
You can buff killers across the board for DS, but that seems a horrible change since you're just going to make the experience very unbalance if people don't bring DS if not in general, introducing massive power creep. Just change the problem, don't try to change around it.
If its so strong we need to buff all the killers to level the field, its probably too strong and needs to be reduced.
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@KingOfBadRNG New trapper with pumpkin head charm code is "twitchortreat". Posted on one of the DBD twitter accounts.
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@Thatgurl_again said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1717189#Comment_1717189
I get what you're saying but no. You can't nerf something and buff whatever, if they did they would have to buff something EXTREMELY weak. But its the same thing the other way around. We need balance, not "power" roles.
I don't know what you're trying to get at, I'm not trying to make nor want a power role. You're making this out to be more than it is. We can nerf DS for example no problem as its a balance issue. We can buff Daja Vu no problem as its weak. Same can be said for the other side. we can nerf Spirit and buff Clown and leave survivors as is because as is they are already problems.
There's no need to touch the other side inherently just for the sake of it. You address balance issues on both and go from there. If you over buff or over nerf you adjust. Things change, you change with them.
The only thig I'd say you need to address on both sides at the same time is keys and mori's.
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@Thatgurl_again said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1712644#Comment_1712644
For B the same would have to go for killer. If u nerf one side so will the other. You cannot nerf one side and buff another for example. It's a two way street. Killers dont get a power role, they need to be balanced, as well as survivor
I mean killers don't have second chance perks, so nothing would be changed. Maybe NoED but that perk doesn't really need changes. I'm not putting every single change I want just a few. Sure we could nerf Spirit, but survivors being as strong as they are is a bigger issue to me currently as that effects every game.
Also yeah you do nerf one side and buff the other because they're not balanced, we're not gonna nerf DS because its dumb but also nerf Clown just cause. There's imbalances on both sides both too strong and too weak. Survivors are just generally stronger and also any change would be across the board since they all work the same, rather than take the time to buff over half the killer roster in their own ways since they all have different powers.
If we just nerf all of both sides than what was the point, nothing changed. We need buffs and nerfs on both sides. I just didn't want to write an essay on my dream vision of the game and every single thing that needs to be changed.
These are just my top few.
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@JawsIsTheNextKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1715070#Comment_1715070
I think it could. Do survivors genuinely think keys are fair? Do killers really think that Moris are fair? I think there are some things on which there is a consensus. We could start with those.
To be honest though, as a killer main, I'm not going to run Ruin with Hex Undying and I am sure there are survivor mains out there that feel the same way about running DS and unbreakable.
Let me just preface this with the fact that I would love to be wrong about what I'm about to say and maybe I've just been unlucky with my experience.
From what I've seen in my years in DBD:
A decent amount of survivors think keys are fine because they have to do a few gens and its an item not an offering and find the hatch and *add nonsense here*. I haven't really seen the same argument made for mori's, they are agreed upon to be dumb for the most part. But killers are never going to agree to nerf mori's without keys being addressed.
The survivor side is generally more rock headed than the killer side, for whatever reason that may be, and it's really going to be getting them on board that's going to be a bigger hassle in my opinion. They don't fully grasp basic concepts like the game being 4v1 and that the game encourages tunneling by design (and that should change js). I've seen this behavior in my own friend groups, let alone with the anonymity that comes with the forums and online.
Now don't get me wrong, there is also a decent chunk of the killer base that just wants 4k's and don't understand to be happy with the 3k, as that's a win, among other things.
If we only do what is generally agreed upon, the only thing getting changed would be things on the killer side. Iri hatchets, mori's, Spirit. But DS wont be touched, neither will BT or anything because survivors don't agree they need to be changed. Again, if we can't even agree on the worse offenders what's the point? If we only change things on one side I don't think that's fair either.
I don't run anything particularly crazy on either side nor do I tunnel or do anything toxic, but the same cannot be said for the community as a whole. The worst thing I'll do is play Spirit. So its not like I'm defending any of these things, its just not in this community to get past their own side and consider the other from what I've seen. If it was this post wouldn't exist.
This isn't the first time a post like this has been made and it will not be the last. The two sides just have too much against each other and lack sufficient understanding of he other side. The Survivor bias and killer bias groups are just too large compared to those that sufficiently play both sides and understand both.
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While that would be great, its not happening.
Too many people are too focused on their main side and don't play both sides enough, if at all, to understand how things work. Survivors are too entitled and toxic. Killers get shamed for playing well or just not the way the survivors want leading to them not caring.
Both sides are frustrated with the other side and how long things have been allowed to go on. That's why whenever keys get brought up its "well what about moris" and vice versa. DS, BT, Unbreak, iri hatches, keys, moris, ect.
If the biggest offenders on both sides can't even be agreed upon, what else could be? Even OoO is being defended now.
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Hmm buff the strongest killer in the game or nerf the most annoying one.
Nurse doesn't need buffs, she needs bug fixes. Spirit does need nerfs though.
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@Boss said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1713218#Comment_1713218
I wasn't talking about just results, i personally do see a drop in skill in-game, as shown in my first comment.
Not that I can tell, that all sounds like console limitations affecting how they play more than the players lacking skill in of themselves. But maybe that's just your perspective, after all I'm not in your games and you're not in mine.
You said they loop just fine. So I'm not sure what else you would be referring to in terms of actual skill in the game that's not a result of console/control issues.
If you mean you second comment, that where I felt like you were taking their performance as a main measure, like "you can still question if they can truly be more skillful than that". Which is why I made a point that skill is measured differently in console as they have more to deal with. I wouldn't say they're less skillful because they're preforming worse due to other factors, which is what I believed was being said.
Maybe I'm just missing something here.
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@Boss said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1712637#Comment_1712637
Yeah, i know controllers can be limiting in that way.
But whether it's skill that's limited or the console that's limited, the result hardly differs for me as their Killer.
Also, since controllers are a potential limiter, you can still question if they can truly be more skillful than that, or that they have the same amount of skill as someone who's limited to a controller.
What i mean is: If you take someone from console-exclusively to PC-exclusively, they obviously won't immediately be better.
But would they grow over time or not?
Depends on what you mean by "skill". If you judge only by results only than you could say they lack skill. But then you'd have to say Spirit players are just good because they can hear and Clown players are less skilled because they're clown.
I'd measure it based on relative to others in the same situation. I don't believe its fair to just call the whole console player base worse players with how different the two are.
So while console players might not have less skill on a per person basis, they can't preform as well as pc players in a lot of cases just because of the limits they have. A good console player is not the same as a good pc player.
Performance/results =/= skill all the time. To phrase it another way: should I say you're less skilled because you lost with Clown on Ormond? No of course not. Same for console players, they just have a disadvantage and have to deal with more problems unfortunately. You take the same player and add more problems to their plate, are they less skilled? No. Will they preform as well? Also no.
The question shouldn't really be about skill, since the conditions are so different. The issue is the limitations, not the players. So its not that console players are less skilled, its just they have more problems to deal with that hinder them. Not even getting into other things like frame issues.
Are they less skilled? No I don't think so. Do they preform as well with that skill though? Also no.