Mozic
Mozic
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3023093#Comment_3023093
"If you run sloppy butcher on your hit-and-run characters and find out where they set up their boon, you'll have a pretty easy time predicting where they're about to run off to."
Which is irrelevant. I can know exactly where their boon is at on the other side of the map and that doesn't help me. It's still completely inefficient and a misplay to go all the way over there to try and snuff the totem or down them. Sloppy Butcher value also goes down in value the faster the heal action is.
"Like, if this version of Circle of Healing is "the best healing perk available" right now, healing meta is in a pretty alright state"
No, that's a completely unhealthy state. It blows out all other healing perks by a mile. I don't think you realize how strong and overtuned CoH still is.
I don't think you realize how strong and overtuned CoH still is.I suppose not. When I'm playing survivor I find it handy, when I'm playing killer I find it to be pretty low-urgency. Just last night I was goofing around with a survivor on the way to give them hatch and they lit a CoH in front of me and did a full heal on themselves and it took a comedically long time.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3023033#Comment_3023033
"Exactly, they're doing nothing, so if you find this boring you can go and pressure the other two who are probably doing gens, actually progressing the game."
This isn't the situation I'm referring to.
I'm referring to the times nobody is doing gens. There are 2 sets of double lockers, all of which can be blinded from. Nobody is repairing a generator and everyone is within a locker, in pairs. They bring a map offering to guarantee this happens (ie. Coldwind). You physically cannot progress the game through any means of your own, you just have to wait for them to run out of flashlight charges before you can grab someone - and that needs like 3 of them to fully exhaust a flashlight. From that point onwards, the game is fairly easy. But getting to that point - when the only thing you are able to do is to grab someone from the locker - is so ######### dull.
We're on about 2 different things. In my situation - which is incredibly rare and has only been enabled due to the release of Dredge increasing locker spawns tenfold - it is genuinely uncountable without perks. Which, in my opinion, is bad game design.
I mean even in the case where it's just two of four doing it, the idea that two survivors can just snicker to each other from inside any pair of double lockers on the map, confident that they're impossible to hook, is also an aberration in the game's design. "Just leave them alone" is weird advice to give to the killer. Where's the risk?
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3023042#Comment_3023042
It's still the best healing perk in the game..by a mile. There's literally no reason you should bring other healing perks. It also single handedly invalidates the hit and run play style as well as the killers that rely on that, that's poor design. It's 1/16 perks that work for the entire team to have infinite medkit heals. For reference of how strong it is, you could completely remove the self healing component on it so that's it's just increased heals for the team in its radius and it would still be meta on swf groups..that's how good it is.
People downplay how significant it is that it only takes 1 perk slot for the entire team compared to say self care which took 4 slots. Also, the supposed "downside" of snuffing the totem is completely irrelevant and not really a downside at all as killers will almost never snuff the totems because it's actually a net negative on time to do so, meaning as survivor I actually hope they waste time snuffing as that is a net positive for me as survivor. So the entire downside its supposed to have doesn't actually exist.
Back when boons stacked and Circle of Healing's heal rate was 100% I'd have agreed with you wholeheartedly, but it's really not that big of a deal now - even vs. hit and run characters. Yes, it's loadout efficient. Yes, if you don't go snuff it, it's got great long-term efficiency. If you run sloppy butcher on your hit-and-run characters and find out where they set up their boon, you'll have a pretty easy time predicting where they're about to run off to.
Like, if this version of Circle of Healing is "the best healing perk available" right now, healing meta is in a pretty alright state. Botany Knowledge's change may well send it careening back over the line where it's too fast again, but that'll come at the cost of the loadout efficiency benefit of CoH, and if it's really bad again BHVR will just... adjust it.
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I'm working off the assumption that "Dead Hard has an animation" will also mean "the animation is locked" and you can't throw palettes or vault until the duration expires. If that's the case, it'll be a pretty healthy perk (relative to where it is currently, at least) - and the worst behavior I think you'd see is dead hard standoffs under palette where the killer just has to wait and try to time the swing to come through right as the endurance wears off while the survivor frantically hammers the palette button to throw it the second the animation ends.
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They'd probably want the kill rate to rise because the average match is more consistent under a healthy MMR system rather than rise as a byproduct of very high skill killers routinely mowing through average to low skill survivor lobbies 4 at a time.
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@Hawk81584 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3023011#Comment_3023011
I swear killers will complain about EVERYTHING. It’s a you issue, you should just change your way of doing things and it won’t be a problem. Not everything needs to be nerfed
I do change the way I do things - I run iron maiden to speed up the grab animation and I run franklins on every m1 killer to knock flashlights out of people's hands. When I'm trapper, I throw a trap in front of both lockers and wait.
That doesn't change the situation from being an easy stalemate, which is simultaneously why cheeky survivors find it so amusing.
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Your incentive and reward for not staying under hook is more power in chase and immediate regression on gens you kick - go get em, tiger!
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Circle of Healing is not that oppressive anymore - it's still good, but I don't know why people act like it's still this 'forbidden perk' after having its efficiency slashed three times.
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It seems pretty fair to me - if you're early enough in the game to be losing a lot of ruin value by having it deactivate after your first kill, you're already in a pretty good position. If you want to keep that value longer, spread out your hook states.
And having the hex deactivate also opens up a dull totem for use with Plaything, Undying, or NOED - assuming you're doing something goofy with your build or there's a lot of cleansed dulls.
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@egg_ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3022970#Comment_3022970
Yeah, you fall for it one time and then you know immediately what they're up to
Riddle me this: two of them are trying to go for hehe yt compilation jukes and overall being annoying, but not progressing the game. What are the other two doing? If they're around too, then the game is not progressing at all, giving you an advantage because they will throw eventually. If the other two are doing gens, go and pressure them instead as they are actually progressing the game while you're just wasting time?
The answer to your brilliant riddle is that the killer is also unable to progress the game - it's a free stalemate at best, which puts the killer into a no-win situation where they either go for the grabs just to get saved, or ignore them and lose the ability to pressure at least half of their opponents.
Flash saves out of lockers frankly shouldn't be a thing in any context.
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Its kind of novel seeing some people argue that Iron Will should be kept as-is because its really not that big of a deal and killers should simply get good and handle it, and other people arguing that they can't live without it to the point that the game would be unplayable to them.
It can't really be both, can it?
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@StibbityStabbity said:
None of the changes includes "Morbin' time".
This is honestly a good point and I don't know why more people aren't talking about this.
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The response to higher gen times absolutely should be survivors distributing more of their limited resources towards perks and items that improve gen speeds. That's the trade-off that's happening to deprive them of one or two extra healing / chase related perks per lobby.
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We'll really just have to see it in action to get a full understanding of what sorts of gameplay it enables - I think if the animation can be cancelled by actions (like vaulting or throwing a palette) then it is probably going to hold onto its power to prolong chases in ways that don't offer counterplay to the killer. If it cannot, it'll be a huge relief to the sorts of behavioral tedium that killers currently have to tolerate to bait it out.
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Now that the items don't get destroyed when the timer expires, I think it's pretty fair and creative. And funny.
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The only issue I see here is that the solution to uneven volumes for injured sounds between survivors is to make the quiet characters louder.
That said, I feel like a volume slider that would let survivors reduce the loudness of their own survivor's injured sounds would be a good addition - it'd address the irritation angle without also robbing the killer of essential info.
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They've already responded a few time to stuff like this just to say that this isn't the last balance patch coming out and that there's more perks out there they want to address in the future - 39 perks wasn't "the only ones they think need changes" its just the maximum they could do in one patch cycle.
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Given how absolutely unwinnable the game can become when dealing with ruin in a 3v1 scenario or worse, the change makes sense to me. Like Corrupt Intervention - by that point you've clearly gotten enough value out of the perk in order to no longer need it to contribute to the snowball you've amassed.
Also Hex: Ruin is a boring passive perk that prevents me from kicking generators when I'm killer and prevents me from getting blast mine value when I'm a survivor, so good riddance!
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The deaf friend I had didn't even want to make it far enough into the game to unlock spine chill before dropping it due to the inability to hear terror radius or skill check prompts - I think relying on perks to bridge the gap is entirely the wrong way to resolve these problems, though.
Accessibility features absolutely should not tax disabled players perk slots!
For that reason, I don't think it's appropriate to clutch onto Spine Chill's current effects out of concern for its value as an accessibility feature. The devs have a responsibility to address accessibility issues in other ways than perk balance.
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@Mandy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3020326#Comment_3020326
you have to consider majority of the playerbase is not high MMR...that's why all feedback is valid, the game has to be accessible to all, including new players etc.
"Majority" is an understatement! The usage statistics in the blog post was really eye-opening to me. The 'top mmr' games are something like 0.13% of matches played compared to the midsection!
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The killer is about to become a lot more dangerous in chase - keeping Iron Will in its current state could pose a huge risk for heavily incentivizing everyone to play in a super immersed manner, which would drive killer players absolutely nuts.
Also, escaping from a chase while injured even once is significant enough to swing a game. It shouldn't be easy to do - especially if you manage to use both a health state and your exhaustion status to really draw the chase out.
Iron Will is the linchpin of the standard chase kit right now for so many reasons. Being injured should feel like a big problem.
Spine Chill is a major security blanket for some survivors (myself included!) but it robs stealth killers of their defining characteristic in a way that no other perk counters a killer-by-type so effectively. You'll still get value for knowing when you're at risk of being stalked by Meyers or Ghost Face, but facing stealth killers in confined spaces should be unnerving! "Putting the horror back into DBD" right?
Survivor players are crafty - they'll adapt, and these changes clear the overgrowth to allow some new strategies and techniques to grow - as BHVR stated multiple times was the intention.
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If bodyblocking is enough of an issue, STBFL, Mad Grit, and Forced Penance will just become meta responses to it. Killers already have the tools to deal with this, they just don't see it quite often enough to make it worth the perk slots.
Also this is mettle of man's best chance to be relevant again in a long time so maybe they should get this moment to have some fun
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@Notretsam said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3017849#Comment_3017849
Otz is right that Corrupt exist to help killers get off to a hot start, getting an early down then can be snowballed into more value from that perk. Why should I be punished for successfully using the perk? the answer is a perk should never punish the player for getting strong value from it and the changes to Corrupt punishes the killer.
edit* you actually said Otz said corrupt exists to help killers in the early game, true and it still helps killers like trapper to setup and most of them wouldn't get 2+ downs, but it shouldn't punish the killers who could get 2+ downs.
What is the counterplay for killers dealing with an SWF squad who uses an oak offering, and tries to blind you with 2+ flashlights, sabo hooks and body blocks? There is none, you're most likely not getting that hook and not going make it to a scourage hook on a big map for certainty.
It's not punishment, it's acknowledging that you no longer need the perk. Think about it in the same context as Decisive Strike and (soon to be) Off the Record deactivating when a survivor performs a 'conspicuous action' - they don't need either perk effect anymore if they start behaving productively.
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I hadn't heard the idea to make grabs on unhooking a 100% trade before and I really like it - just make it so that unhooking can't be cancelled once started and that a grab still pulls the hooked survivor off in exchange. It'd also curtail the survivor bm where they intentionally spam unhooks on someone they don't actually intend to rescue.
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As Otz put it, Corrupt Intervention exists to help killers who need help in the early game. If you down someone, you no longer need help in the early game. It's a smart change, I think.
As for Sabo, I think it gives the perk some additional personality and adds a counterplay avenue to scourge hooks.
And as for botany knowledge, 50% may be too much, but we'll see. Healing speeds are in a constant tug-of-war and its probably normal for it to shift up and down over time just to keep the balance in flux.
Overall, if there's three problems with the upcoming update I wouldn't make it these three.
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There's a critical error in your presentation here - while all perks on one killer is a pretty comparable figure between the current system and the upcoming changed system - all perks all killers with the current system, using your math, is 29,532 webs. The grind is functionally isolated to each killer because the prestiges do not advance your progress with each killer.
When you actually factor for the amount of bloodwebs you no longer need to clear because you have all teachables at tier 3 automatically, thanks to a full cast of P3 killers, the picture looks much fairer. You should probably present that as your side-by-side.
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I already enjoyed running a sonic speed Legion build with Brutal Strength + Fire Up + Bamboozle + BBQ (greedy)
Very happy to try that out with the base kit kick speed increases and swap BBQ out for another perk that improves or at least synergizes with vault/kick speeds!
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I'd probably give it a fair shake first and see what comes of it. A lot of perks related to info denying to the killer got attention, so what the average solo survivor's toolkit looks like might change dramatically and not be limited to "Well I want to bring X, but if I don't load up on every second chance perk available I'll never escape" logic
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Honestly lightburn seems like a legacy mechanic that should be retired at this point. It pretty much only affects Wraith since so few people know how to reliably interfere with Nurse using it.
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It wasn't meant to be - they've been downplaying the P3 reward from the moment they announced it would exist. I think it's cool of them to have some kind of acknowledgement for it, and having it be much more would probably have led to an even louder outcry from people who are overwhelmed with a fear of missing out on the thing over such a short timespan to get their characters P3'd.
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Honestly it's pretty clever imo to shift the gen control meta off of the killer's shoulders somewhat back onto the survivors. In our current meta, outside of the rare Prove Thyself or a full SWF with a coordinated intention to blast out gens as quickly as possible, gen-related perks had become extremely rare in favor of second chance & healing related perks. Now toolboxes, gen speed perks, and other related tools will start to feel like a necessity again and compete with the other toys survivors have to play with.
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If you are using DH to get to a palette you are most likely not intending to drop it, since youd be banking on tanking the hit and being able to use that distance to make distance. The mindgame would become whether or not the killer swings, expecting to get stunned but at least trade a hit with deep wounds + get to remove a palette, vs. whether they wait it out and down you (potentially still getting to swing through the palette that the survivor is now dropping, realizing that the killer waited out the dead hard)
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@SkeletalElite said:
No killer related power interacts with perks like this.
Pig boxes don't
Pyramid head cages don't
Nemesis Vaccines Don't.
Pinhead doesn't get to have an exception
They probably ought to! Like, all of them.
Why would uncaging someone not be viewed in the same way as unhooking someone in terms of advancing the gamestate? Solving the lament configuration is important to the success of a team vs. pinhead, locking lockers can severely slow the Dredge down, etc etc
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One thought I've seen regarding this new change is that a survivor team wanting to control NOED risk would only need to think about breaking dull totems that are in areas that would be severely disadvantageous were NOED to spawn there - like right by a hook or near the basement.
The issue that NOED formerly had where it could spawn on the most difficult-to-find totems should be largely eliminated if not become a potential advantage, as survivors will be more likely to find the hexed totem in a more out-of-the-way location where they wont be interrupted during the cleansing.
I think it's a pretty smart change, and it also presents an acknowledgement from the devs that the current effects are entirely welcome, by their estimation.
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@steponmeadiris said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3016260#Comment_3016260
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3016284#Comment_3016284
Let me be clear, I am very aware that the perk is now better for a few specific Killers. I just wish this didn't come at the expense of its current usage. That's why I think my 3rd suggestion is perfect — it allows more Killers to get usage out of the perk, while still keeping it strong on the Killers that currently benefit from it.
I certainly wouldn't mind losing the cooldown!
A killer I've found a ton of value with DD on is Deathslinger - since even the obsession tends to get a lot more confused trying to evade a followup redeemer shot when it sounds like the heartbeat is right on their tail. I suspect killers who have an easier time changing targets, like Deathslinger, will probably benefit more than others with this perk even in its buffed state.
An especially goofy way to apply it now will be with Trapper, since obsession stepping on a trap will activate it.
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I do like a perk with stacking (or in this case, regressing) effects, but this design sounds like a lot more people would escape death, which probably doesn't line up with the perk's motto.
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It's appeal comes from the lack of forethought the survivor needs to put into getting exhaustion-level value from an exhaustion perk. It's okay if it gets nerfed indirectly in the same patch that severely nerfs other perks whose value is rooted in its passive nature (Hex: Ruin, Tinkerer)
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I think you're mistaking a nerf for 'fails to complement the specific way you use the perk'
It's more versatile now; therefore, buff.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3015760#Comment_3015760
I don't know. I think the player that is utilizing hard facecamping as a strategy is always going to take the path of least resistance. They even took away the BP incentive for hooking everyone.
Is that player really worth catering to? At that point they're barely engaging with the game. Like, a player who hard facecamps so frequently that it's their go-to strategy for getting through every match is functionally on par with players who never leave a tutorial area of a game. They kind of need to take it on themselves to adjust how they play.
Players who do it intentionally and spitefully because they know it gets a rise out of people probably also can't be persuaded, since they're just looking for an easy way to antagonize other people.
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I think the anti-camping is present but more subtle than an explicit punishment for camping:
Killers are getting a 2.5% regression bonus for kicking gens, as well as tools to make themselves a lot scarier in chase - psychologically, killers will probably favor their odds of winning a chase more often, and feel like they have very good reasons to leave the hook and apply themselves more productively elsewhere.
Right now, (most) killers camp because they evaluate it as their best strategic option. With these basekit buffs, maybe that will start to change?
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I like it! BHVR is clearly throwing bones out to encourage survivors to play more evasively than rely solely on perfect looping skills. Encouraging alternate avenues of escape will help make playing survivor feel less like a solitary funnel into looking up youtube videos on how to optimally run tiles, and it will also make things like the buff to bloodlust make it important for survivors to find ways to drop chase since looping indefinitely a doomed venture.
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@Th3Nightmare said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3015662#Comment_3015662
Overcharge
Along with its current effects, Overcharge will cause a kicked generator’s regression speed to grow from 100% to 400% over the course of 30 seconds. Survivors will want to stop this generator from regressing as soon as possible.
Well, its 400% said in the perk, nothing about the time
30 seconds is the time. The regression will start at 100% and the rate will increase over the course of the first 30 seconds it is allowed to continue regressing, capping out at 400%.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
They said that's not coming until this winter.
Aw :(
Well, rancor gets to stick around in my build for a while longer then, thanks!
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3015299#Comment_3015299
There is another problem. This, a defensive perk, will be used aggressively from now on. You could theoretically bodyblock with BT before, especially on maps with a lot of doors like RPD or Midwich. However, waiting 12 seconds was absolutely manageable and then you get a slug right after. For this new OTR you would not be able to do that since waiting 80 seconds is not manageable and you would get no benefit from hitting the survivor.
"A survivor might bodyblock me" is so much more manageable in terms of a defensive perk being used aggressively than the previous garbage with Decisive Strike. Endurance doesn't protect anyone from being grabbed out of a locker, for starters.
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I was wondering the same thing!
Hopefully it stacks?
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I appreciate that it will implicitly encourage stealth killers to actually play in a stealthy manner - theyll now feel benefits from approaching with line of sight blockers since they will be confident that spine chill isn't giving them away regardless and that its better for them to just bull rush and hope for the best
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I actually double-checked, Off the Record deactivates for all the same reasons Decisive Strike does. I'm no longer worried about this lmao
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OTR will absolutely make the biggest splash imo in terms of joining the array of second-chance perks, but I think it does so in a way that's much healthier.
* If you are a survivor who doesn't trust your teammates, this is the perfect "Well fine I'll protect myself off hook, then" perk
* If you are a survivor who wants to play aggressively, you can bodyblock to your heart's content - but if the killer decides to hit you, that's that. It's also a much more obvious way to telegraph "I'm still in the game! You can chase me!" than DS is. The killer, with the new bloodlust changes, can also elect to just try and ignore you and bloodlust their way to getting at who they want, which means you'll be spending your time unproductively. There's a risk and cost involved in playing this way.
* If you want some late game assurance that you can get out of the gate, this is the #1 perk for it especially now that Decisive Strike decativates when the gates are powered.
If all 4 survivors run this perk, it'd certainly feel frustrating in new ways, but I'm sure that the killers will find ways to adapt to it.
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Dead Hard is now better at doing some things than it was previously good at, and can no longer do some things that it could previously do.
What was gained vs. what was lost was not even - using Dead Hard for distance was more valuable than an extra health state - DH is an overall fairer perk now.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
Against some survivors (the ones that can dead hard on reaction to a killer pressing the M1 button), the new dead hard gives them MORE distance, since they get a free speed boost from it. And I know they are using dead hard on reaction when they magically dead hard even though they are looking forward.
It also gives them more downtime. Theyll have to run off to go mend before they can do anything productive - also meaning that they can't power an exit gate or cleanse a totem by themselves by defualt.
Catching a survivor trying to mend is also a great way to restart a chase if they incorrectly believed they got away, as a lot of survivors will habitually start to mend in the nearest crawlspace they can find just out of view.