Mozic
Mozic
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This is one of the things that BBQ did a great job at encouraging with the BP reward, and something that other perks like No Way Out accomplishes and Grim Embrace tries (but fails) to accomplish.
So my first thought is just continuing to tie powerful effects behind one-token-per-unique-survivor-hooked perk effects.
The other thought is that I think the basekit BT change is going to do a lot to not necessarily discourage tunneling but to make tunneling more fair for the survivor - by giving the survivor more tools to help them get a better chance at escaping in case the killer fixates right back onto them, there's less room to consider it an invalid strategy on the killer's part.
While survivors might want to make camping and tunneling literally impossible, the healthier approach imo is to just make both practices about the same as starting a fresh chase.
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You haven't known bliss until you've been in a postgame chat after bringing both a tombstone and bloody party streamers
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@Peanits said:
They're not gone or forgotten, they're just on the backburner at the moment. We revealed this very early on and it hasn't been slated for any particular update yet. The rest of the year is already booked with other changes- the ones mentioned during the anniversary stream & in the roadmap- but we'll come back to it once we have some time.
The QOL changes for the foreseeable future are here, in case you missed it:
Thanks for the clarification! I'm glad to hear it's still on the table even if there's too much already happening this year to squeeze it in sooner.
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Howdy, another Dredge-main-ever-since-they-released player here!
I haven't seen Jund's video on the topic, but its clear to me with the way the Dredge is designed that the devs put a ton of energy into deciding how to make sure the Dredge can simultaneously take advantage of a unique means to deny visual info (nightfall) without becoming unreasonably difficult to track.
Before I mained Dredge, I mained Nemesis - and Nemesis's teachables and addons both include ways to suppress its terror radius. For the Nemesis, this is nearly worthless - they stomp around so loudly that audio tracking them is hard to miss. The Dredge is very similar - they're a huge killer and they're very loud.
When I first started testing out the Dredge, I had the assumption that they'd be an ambush killer, but I think it was the moment where I discovered that lurking in a locker for too long causes it to start emanating very obvious warnings that you're present that I realized Dredge is not an ambusher - they're designed for uncanny pursuit.
While surprising people out of lockers and under the shroud of nightfall is alluring, BHVR clearly does not want the survivors to be unaware when the Dredge is nearby - they want you to take advantage of confusion and a limited ability to plot long-distance movement. If you predict a locker they'll run past or interact with, you can take advantage of that, too, but I think trying to force the Dredge to perform in the capacity of a stealth killer would be asking too much.
Survivors are already kind of mixed on the experience of playing under Nightfall. BHVR just made it even harder to see Dredge (at a distance) than before - so there's a clear model that BHVR is pursuing here, but it requires looking towards Dredge's actual strengths over pushing them to be something they might seem to be, but aren't.
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The Dab Era hasn't even begun yet and we're already calling for its end. For shame!
Dab by Daylight WILL come to pass. 😆
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3030660#Comment_3030660
Except there are literally animation that can be cancelled like unhooking and kicking gens and if a killer lunges and gets stunned mid-lunge and if a grab is cancelled by validation. There are definitely actions that can't be cancelled also of course like moris and snuffing Boon totems. But it's not true that "every animation locks you and there's no cancelling an animation". In fact everything in the game is an animation in one way or another - running itself is an animation that gets interrupted by vaulting and dropping pallets.
Obviously I'm not saying survivors can or can't vault during a Dead Hard. I'm just saying that "there's no cancelling animations" is not true. There's some actions and animations that can't be cancelled and some that are.
Isn't the difference that the actions you can interrupt have progress bars?
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Hey, thank you for collecting and sharing all of this data! I know it must have taken a lot of time & effort to go through and record these results.
Have you considered setting up some kind of distribute-able template so other folks can track their own stats? For answering the oddball questions like "Which killers run NOED the most" I have a laundry list of curiosities I could start indulging.
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The price of successfully bruising an ego😞
But seriously, that is a bummer. Hopefully the base gameplay changes make this encounter less common?
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@AnchorTea said:
Im not a game designer so I cant say if this will be balanced but the idea of wanted posters is so fitting that I want it now.
I am! But I also know that good design doesn't occur from one person in a vacuum. I assume the need for the Deathslinger to find and physically interact with these posters would be a partial offset to the power it provides (in the same way clown yellow bottles compete for the same ammo that purple ones do) - the 70s exposed duration is as high as it is to account for the almost-certain scenario where the Deathslinger not only has to find the survivor in question, but also win a chase against them. 70s may even be too low in this case!
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@RpTheHotrod said:
Bodyblocking and flashlighting should at least cut the endurance timer down to a standard unhook timer. This new endurance thought from BHVR assumes survivors are actually trying to get away from the killer after being unhooked, but normally people with endurance just stick around the area while they have their safety state turning their endurance into an OFFENSIVE attack towards the killer. This is in 100% opposition of endurance's design intention.
I think at the point a survivor stops making an effort to leave, BHVR doesn't really mind what the killer does to them if they get caught. The 5s endurance and haste effect is also pretty worthless if the survivor, say, doesn't try to relocate and just gets healed immediately under the hook. If they don't leave and the killer comes back and finds them standing right there - its probably unfair to the killer to have that treated as 'off-limits'.
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If you drop chase, it's an extra 12 seconds of mending on top of a heal, which is pretty impactful. It also must be dealt with before the survivor can do much that's productive.
If the chase continues, the survivor has the deep wound visual interference to contend with in chase on top of the inability to stand still for too long - adding a lot of additional pressure to the survivor over the course of the remaining chase. The average survivor loops worse with deep wounds.
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@Chewy102 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3030402#Comment_3030402
What do you think should be the price of a 3rd health state then? DH needed to have a cost to it, it being a nearly 100% free health state or chase reset is the exact reason DH why is used by 75% of Survivors. The ONLY reason Survivors don't run DH is that they didn't have it unlocked yet or some very rare personal choice.
DH needed to have a cost. If having to mend is too much for you, then what would you do instead?
You misinterpret my stance - I think it's a good change.
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@Friendly_Blendette said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3030317#Comment_3030317
His terror radius is only 8m smaller than the lullaby and typically the lullaby isn't that impactful, especially since the last chapter being locker dependant feels like a non issue, I'll give you the m1 perks but they seem to be phasing m1 only perks out with stuff like blood favour and dark devotion, makes angry rabbit noises when you hit her with a pallet, has a great singing voice.
😛 No audio cue tied to aiming m2, canonical reason for being 4.4 m/s (he is wearing a leg brace)
Huntress and Trickster have him beat on the lethality angle and are, for all intents and purposes, more dangerous killers, but I think Deathslinger is safely average. His lack of mobility is exaggerated by the redeemer's limited range, so the only way he can really cover his weaknesses wrt map pressure is through perks or some kind of rework that adds another layer of mechanics to his power.
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@Mister_xD said:
It's still a completely free third healthstate you get any time you want it, all you gotta do is time it differently now.
I do not think this Perk is going to be drastically weaker than the version we have now - maybe a bit more difficult to use, but still very strong.
Folks are sleeping hard on the amount of baggage a mandatory 12 second mending carries with it for every successful Dead Hard activation. There's gonna be a ton of folks who run off, start to mend, and then get caught out half-mended and exhausted by the killer finding them again (especially with the upcoming iron will changes)
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What I read into how they talked about camping during the stream today - the issue they see with camping seems to be with getting away after being unhooked, not the danger involved for your teammates in coming in for the unhook. Viewed in that context, a haste effect + endurance to make even more distance if struck makes a lot more sense as an anti-camping (and anti-tunneling) measure.
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In my experience, balance changes made around the highest tier results in overly technical, impenetrable, and generally anti-fun gameplay. The practice killed Overwatch and the entire RTS genre - both things that were at high points during the era of "big boom kaboom shooty" spectacle and memes and entered lowpoints when it started to try and focus on appeasing people who play professionally.
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It seems much fairer, now. There are cases where it's the best exhaustion perk, and many more cases where other exhaustion perks are the right one for the moment. I'm really keen to figure out how it interacts with other sources of endurance per the typical deep wounds restrictions.
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He also has a trick you can do where you can just hold a survivor in place for the duration of the chain's durability which I've used both to prevent a healthy survivor from escaping before EGC finishes, as well as to prevent a survivor from making a hook rescue before the other survivor advanced to stage 2 / got sacrificed. You can also use it to try and wait out endurance effects. None will make you popular with the survivor in question. 👀
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@Friendly_Blendette said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3030292#Comment_3030292
He requires more skill than Huntress imo but has 0 major advantages over her. Like name a single thing he can do much better than Huntress. I genuinely don't think theres any. Huntress has him beat in range, ease of use, hitbox, downing, higher ammo capacity, more efficient reloads, better play at pallets. Slinger has a slightly shorter wind up time and faster projectile.
No lullaby, not dependent on locker placements to rearm, better interaction with m1 perks, makes squealing pig noises when you hit him with a palette, chuckles a lot.
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I've been playing him a lot lately and been having a ton of fun with it. The way in which the redeemer ultimately counts as a m1 hit once you reel someone in leads to handy synergy with a lot of perks that don't normally play nice with killer m2's.
Dissolution is a pretty good perk on him too, which amusingly would have been weaker had his terror radius not been expanded.
And the amount of salt I get when I win has generally gone down - I think survivors don't feel cheated by the ADS spam anymore.
Using the redeemer is very much like using Nemesis' tentacle now, within loops. You need to be coming around a corner already raising the gun to fire the moment you finish turning the corner.
Oh, but positive feelings aside he still has a terrible time pressuring the map as a whole. Fun killer, but I do lose a lot with him.
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@Lliart said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3030259#Comment_3030259
That being said though, Decisive strike WOULD still activate despite being hit by the killer while body-blocking going off though.
That's super true - though I guess you manage to hit, down, and pick them up within DS's timer... I dunno, they can have it at that point I guess. I assume they need it. Or they can suffer a little bit of slugging.
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@Armchair said:
It's just throwing fuel on the fire of the epidemic of cheaters who keep their cheating confined to things that can't be proven to BHVR in gameplay footage.
Even so, it's not a good reason to reverse the change. What if subtle cheaters boost their gen repair speed to compensate for the updated gen speeds? It's an arms race that BHVR literally cannot win within the confines of the mechanics, because mechanics are the thing hackers can just rewrite to suit themselves.
Like, yes. Cheaters will take advantage of this. They already took advantage of the former dead hard.
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It kind of already is? I follow BHVR's apparent logic that taking an endurance hit is itself a sufficient indicator of becoming a "valid" target for chase in the same way that performing a conspicuous action would be. So, while the survivor gets their speed boost and you then have to go chase them down, you're no longer 'tunneling' them if they had an opportunity to run to safety and try to escape you.
Having protection hits IGNORE endurance would be way too inconsistent to apply fairly. The game doesn't do a perfect job of discerning what is and is not a protection hit, since it happens largely in the presence of another injured survivor (who you may not have been intending to protect) and also does not trigger if you 'take a hit' for a healthy survivor.
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I certainly wouldn't balance the game around hackers - they're hackers.
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How many webs does the addition of a new killer or survivor add to the game currently, vs how many will be added under the new system for each time a killer or survivor gets added?
Also, under the new system where you're forced to prestige, won't you be gathering up perks on smaller webs - making the bp per web drop significantly?
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@TotemSeeker91 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/331259/extra-dead-hard-info-from-stream
Sorry, I don't understand the second point, can you give me an example possibly?
Picture the dead hard you're already super familiar with - the survivor does their little shoulder-charge animation and during that window they have no hitbox.
From the PTB onward, the survivors will still make this 'charging' gesture while DH is active, but the duration is a full second (twice as long as current DH) and while they're in that animation, they will take an endurance hit if stuck instead of having no hitbox. If you've ever seen a survivor lag out while they're dead harding, you probably have a good idea of what the new Dead Hard looks like.
In both examples on stream, the survivors were locked-in on the direction they were already heading when it activated. In the first example, it caused as Claudette to reach a doorway at an unusual angle. I take this to mean it's safe to assume that, just like current Dead Hard, the updated one will not let you do anything else while you're in the animation.
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It's certainly interesting - I think it'd introduce a lot of dread into playing killer since it'd become one of those things where the perk's mere existence would mean there's a constant threat that it's present in the match.
And something like Make Your Choice would be a direct counter to it, since the unhooking survivor's scream would serve as a substitution for the loud noise notification. Breakdown might also interfere with the perk because the hook breaking would presumably spawn its own loud noise notification.
Even so, I suspect the average survivor probably wouldn't feel the impact of running it without some kind of feedback on their end to get value out of it.
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I agree! Great job to you two (and whoever else helped produce it) - simple, informative, and helped to address some of the tentative anxiety folks have about many of the coming changes!
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What would you change about it?
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From a design standpoint, all survivor boons stack on the one totem and each survivor can only light one boon at a time. The killer would have to concentrate all their hexes onto one dull totem in order, otherwise there'd be a weird issue with deciding which hex gets lit per dull.
Plus, in a game where the killer already has too little time to go squash boons, why would you want them also needing to go light their hexes to start getting value out of them?
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I've shifted to showing pretty much zero courtesy towards survivors who unhook & bolt off in the safest direction, leaving their injured, unhooked teammate to fend for themselves. Like, if that's the play, then yeah I'm going to get into the easier chase.
There's a glut of folks out there who try to use ridiculing the killer in postgame chat as a substitution for playing smart.
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Ive been splurging Zubatlel's old compilations and, not to be rude, but it's a wonder that the game ever caught on! The game was a complete nightmare, between the wild inconsistency in terms of bugs, lag, and hit registration, janky counterplay behaviors (ds juggling used to be a thing, alongside the killer just being kind of frozen in place for a couple additional seconds after every pickup, pretty much just to create a flash / palette save window) -
Dead by Daylight today compared to how it looked and played back in like 2018 may as well be a sequel.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3029724#Comment_3029724
Just like CoH. Usage level will go down for a short period after the rework. But then it will be back where it used to be.
Hopefully just in time for me to be sick of going up against an endless barrage of Sprint Burst, Lithe, and Balanced Landing 🤣
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If OTR's endurance effect is "the first time you're unhooked" that'd definitely move it from being at high risk of being oppressive down to just like, the regular, healthy amount of oppressive. Probably one of the first things folks are going to swarm to test out Wednesday!
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@Marik1987 said:
Im looking forward. I think we will see more Overcome, Sprint Burst and Lithe now.
VERY GOOD!!!!!
Smash Hit gang rise up! It's not about being effective, it's about sending a message!
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3029703#Comment_3029703
You're effectively removing the value of this perk to a point where no one will use it. I've been using this perk for 6 years and it will be time to relearn how to play the game.
If the killer need direct line of sight to me won't I see them anyway? Honestly this is probably a fair change for stealth killers - but you effectively deleted this perk.
My guess is they want to make sure if you bring the perk, you'll know if you're being stalked (or at risk of it)
Plus when it activates now I think it'll be more clear that it's urgent, and not just a warning. Since the flipside interpretation is also that spine chill only activates when the killer can see YOU.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3029676#Comment_3029676
What i see is, that its still meta. Other meta perks have been nuked to be completely useless, which DH will still serve its main purpose of giving decent survivors a third health state.
Do you predict it'll continue to crowd out every other exhaustion perk in its updated state?
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@Mandy said:
I want to clear something up with regards to Spine Chill.
The perk is going to work exactly as we stated in the Dev Update, with the line of sight requirements...however we are adding a visual indicator for the strength of the terror radius. This is down to the amount of accessibility comments that we have received. This is also not a permanent solution - we are working on accessibility improvements and when something has been implemented, that part of Spine Chill will be removed.
Sorry for the confusion caused around this. And we do agree, it's not ideal for players to have to run a perk in order to play the game.
Oh! That's way different than I interpreted.
Really happy to hear that a more standard accessibility avenue is in the works!
I guess having it be terror radius based could make Freddy and Dredge benefit way too greatly from it, alongside other obliviousness sources. ...Unless............. 😋
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3029680#Comment_3029680
Tbh, I think it's okay for DH to be more useful against most Killers who can hit at a distance or move at high speeds. I think it might be a problem against for any Killer who relies on an easily telegraphed attack that doesn't work in normal chases and needs a large amount of effort and mind games to even land a hit. Does such a Killer exist? Probably, I Guess.
Do you ever wonder if Amanda's entire career in the Fog is just one long, elaborate punishment engineered by Jigsaw and his uncanny ability for multi-decade perfect planning?
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Im curious to know if the new dead hard also ignores collision - since the ability to dead hard through a killer to set up a flash save is also a potent use for the perk. No hitbox probably means that collision is back on the menu.
Gosh there really are just like 101 things you can do with Dead Hard that are potentially going away, huh?
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3029615#Comment_3029615
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3029617#Comment_3029617
Iiii´m not convinced.
Still looks pretty strong to me. When the point of the update was to change the meta, then DH will definetly stay in the meta.
The sense I get is that it will be a much more high-risk, high-reward exhaustion perk compared to its peers, which is a huge pivot from its place as currently one of the most reliable and safest.
Dead Hard has zero use outside of chase, now. You can't use it to race out of the exit gate to avoid a potential blood warden play, and you can't use it to clear that little bit of extra distance to save someone from hitting stage 2 on hook.
Dead Hard users are probably going to feel a bit less mobile and may even start to stack exhaustion perks again, which would be a win for killers in terms of putting stress on the survivor's loadout.
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@DrDeepwound said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3029662#Comment_3029662
You must not know the definition of complaining, but do go on... I linked the thread you claim did not exist LUL
I think you need to spine "chill" out a little bit 🤣
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3029651#Comment_3029651
Undetectable killers and perks wont make Spine Chill activate
That rules! Also global terror radius build doctor will be triggering it from across the map, which is just as funny in the opposite way.
Super happy with this proposed change! I think its way more important for stealth killers to be able to evade this perk than, say, a nurse.
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This seems like a favorable shift even beyond the boundaries of continuing to provide assistance to HoH folks - won't it being terror radius based mean that an undetectable killer with direct line of sight wouldn't activate it now? (Meyers Tier 1, Ghost Face stalking)
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@Zeon_99 said:
It will still be very effective against almost all killer M2 powers except like Legion and Deathslinger. Reacting to M1 will still be a thing but will give you even more distance now. Also pallets will still be very suspect because if they use it to a pallet and spam space, it just depends which action comes first, the drop or the M1 hit. I doubt that much will change when it comes to those interactions.
I don't think this is really a problem, to be honest. It feels controversial right now, but Dead Hard should provide value in the right contexts. It's still an exhaustion perk, after all. The contexts where they can get that distance is a lot fairer now, as it comes with deep wounds & is 10% less run distance that they would be getting in live, just based on the basegame changes.
Activating Dead Hard means the survivor is locked into running in the same direction for a full second - so they'll not only need to activate it when facing the palette, they'll need to time it so they don't overshoot the zone where they can throw it. This will feel janky at first, but both survivors and killers will start to get a sense of when the "sweet spot" is for survivors where they won't undershoot or overshoot being under palette.
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Seems like QoL for the survivor-side, buff for the killer.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
Will people still be able to use it on reaction to a killer lunge? Because of people can use it on reaction, then it’s still dead hard for distance on those survivors.
Yes - there doesn't appear to be any kind of 'wind up' or tell that you're activating it. It's for all intents and purposes the old dead hard but minus iframes, twice the duration, and no speed boost.
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I'd absolutely take what's being proposed in the blog over basekit fire up.
The issue with fire up is not that it costs a perk slot, it's that its power scales inversely with its value.
The faster hit recovery (2 STBFL stacks), half of a brutal strength (10% palette / wall / gen kicking speed) and reduced speed boost for survivors on injuries is going to be a subtle but significant change for the way chases play out - ESPECIALLY if you augment these bonuses with actual STBFL and actual Brutal Strength.
Live - No Perks / Brutal Strength
* Kick pallet, wall (2.6 seconds / 2.08 seconds )
* Kick generator (2 seconds / 1.6 seconds )
PTB - No Perks / Brutal Strength
* Kick pallet, wall (2.34 / 1.87 seconds )
* Kick generator (1.8 / 1.44 seconds )
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On the upside(?),
- Save the Best for Last value is going up with the base game changes, and is about to go up again with the likely meta changes
- Forced Penance is positioned to be the perfect wedge between nonstop endurance hits and interfering with the potential value of heal builds propped up by botany knowledge's buff
- Mad Grit will also be a strong counter to endurance-heavy survivor groups.
- Mettle of Man will have a chance to stage a comeback.
- Trappers are going to have to start playing roulette between whacking survivors out of traps or picking them up out of traps (traps ignore endurance, but whacking an endurance'd survivor out of a trap will not)
- Sadako and Meyer's ability to phase through bodyblockers will become more common knowledge
It's certainly interesting!
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It's definitely more thematic and interesting than it is explicitly valuable - I think with the dramatic effect it does have on the game it probably wouldn't be appropriate to downgrade it to say, a purple. Even so, it's neat and I'm glad it exists.