Moundshroud
Moundshroud
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@konchok said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2253114#Comment_2253114
You're right there are base mechanics that encourage going back to the hook. However, generally perks are designed to get you to move away. Examples are BBQ or Pop Goes the Weasel which encourage you to leave the hook and still benefit the killer. I was just saying that I personally believe that perks that lean into camping or tunneling or inadvertently lead to camping or tunneling should get looked at to improve game health.
Dead by Daylight is all about Player agency, i.e. choice. Both roles are filled by Players, not Bots. It is true that the DEV have Perks that encourage you to move away from the hook and those that would make Tunneling risky. However, for every Perk that they have that which seems to downplay those tactics, they have others which encourage it. You are suffering from confirmation bias and not looking at the big picture. There are Killers who seem specifically designed to Camp and Tunnel too. Perks are optional choices (that agency again) and cannot be used as a measure in regards to what the DEV want or intend. The only thing that gives us a clear picture is the basic mechanics without any Perks at all. And as I already pointed out, the game itself wants rescues to be risky. It makes sure the Killer knows when you unhook, and even gives that visual cue just in case you have gotten busy and turned around.
So let's talk about this fact a bit more, put it in full context. The DEV could have made it so it isn't as obvious. In other words, it might simply show on the HUD, the way it tells you if someone has been healed or not. They could have even put in a time delay so you aren't certain when that unhook happened. They did the opposite. They ring a DINNER BELL, make it impossible for the Killer not to know "SURVIVORS HERE!" I know I repeat that a lot, to the point of redundancy, but there is a point. I'm going to get to it now:
- Rescuing a Survivor adds one more person back to doing Generators, a huge advantage to Survivors toward their objective.
- Rescuing a Survivor means another Survivor that may in turn rescue you, another huge advantage to the Survivor side.
- Rescuing a Survivor undoes all the work the Killer did to get that hook.
- Rescuing a Survivor EARNS the Survivor doing it Emblem Advancement.
- Rescuing a Survivor EARNS the Survivor Blood Points.
I could go on for another few entries actually, probably pass ten clear positives, but these above are the big ones. There is no downside, only positives to rescuing your teammates. Many Survivors have forgotten that this is a 4v1 and each person that dies significantly reduces your chances of getting out. Every person you save, significantly decreases the chance the Killer can achieve his/her objective. The DEV understand this and because you get so much REWARD for unhooks, the DEV have to make that reward come at a risk. That is why they notify the Killer. Because of Player Agency, they don't know for a fact that the Killer will return to the hook, but they want that to be a high probability option. There is no such thing as a free lunch. Thus, many people seem to work under the INCORRECT assumption that Camping and Tunneling are undesirable side-effects, when they are in fact simply part of the game (and to a degree an intended part).
Returning to Player Agency, let's play Devil's Advocate and talk about what would happen if the DEV did manhandle things and somehow force both Camping and Tunneling out of the game. These are the consequences that WOULD immediately follow:
- Survivors would start abusing the limitation for a competitive edge. This is 100% certain because it happened in every case where the DEV tested this in the past. Even the most minor constraint was quickly weaponized by the Survivors who would utilize someone hooked as a penalizing zone of protection. It was so bad the DEV stopped trying entirely. Consider how bad that must have been.
- You would no longer get any Blood Points or Emblem advancement Altruism regarding rescues. Why should you get rewarded for something that is a given, an act that has no risk? You are already rewarded by getting the person off the hook and back on Generators, giving Blood Points or Emblem advancement beyond that would be a "free lunch" and would have to be discontinued.
- The game would get boring very quickly. Without the potential for camping (honeypot traps) and tunneling for strategic pressure, the only thing left is Looping and Hide & Seek. The Killer has no Agency at this point. They can search for you and they can chase you. The choice of whom chase will have been taken from them as will have been the option to defend or guard. That means the game is now just a ritualistic chase, a forgone conclusion of circling terrain and basic mind games that all good Players learn. I don't know if you are old enough to remember video games like Pac Man, but that is the kind of repetitive pattern play we are talking about. It would be Pac Man with better graphics. Frustrating or not, Camping and Tunneling are the only agency options which prevent that.
- You would lose Killers because nobody wants to be a glorified Bot. Players who take on the role of Killer want just as much agency as those who take on the role of Survivor. One of the reasons Dead by Daylight is successful is because it engages the mind. Taking away options would make it less engaging for the side with fewer choices and would lose us players for that role. Since there are no Bots to take their place, the entire system bogs down as Queues get longer and longer.
I could give you a lot more of these too, but these are the biggest ones. You can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs. You can't have a game like Dead by Daylight, one with a sense of urgency and dread, without there being the constant fear, stress, and frustration. The game is often described as a frustration engine. That is true, but it isn't necessarily a bad thing. Horror movies are the same thing, a long stressful experience where the outcome is always in doubt. In the end, it doesn't matter if the protagonists get out alive or not, because it was about the journey (the rollercoaster ride) of your emotions while the struggle continued. Long story short (probably too late for that), the very tactics people curse and complain about are what make this game work.
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@konchok said:
Make your choice - Encourages going back to the hook. However, because the unhooked survivor is exposed, they are less likely to body block the recently unhooked thereby encouraging tunneling behavior
Furtive Chase - This has the same problem as Make Your Choice. However, Furtive Chase is just a bad perk overall, but it really should have a condition that doesn't encourage coming back to the hook
Forced Penance - If you have 2 survivors, they are both injured with med kits and one has is broken and the other isn't who do you go for? You go for the individual who isn't broken. That's just common sense. The reason why someone would take a protection hit is usually because the person being chased is on death hook and getting tunneled. This perk rewards bad behavior.
Insidious - encourages camping hooks
Monstrous Shrine - encourages using basement and camping basement, this perk is just in general bad. But if it were good then the behavior that it would encourage would be atrocious.
NOED - You can basically ignore gens completing early game, even camp a bit, and then when the game ends secure a free kill end game, maybe more if the group becomes too altruistic.
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These perks should be changed.
Don't be silly. You want to know what REALLY encourages returning to the hook? It is that big old DINNER BELL... audible and visual cue the game gives the Killer when you unhook. It is almost as if they WANT your rescues to come with risk. Duh.
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@akanadi said:
so i played a round of bubba there was a felix that got farmed and i was bubba so i took advantage over that i downed the felix and picked him up because he's dead on hook so before i kill him he dc's and complained in end game chat because "i play to win"
I would have answered him, "and I see your playing to lose strategy is working... keep up the good work."
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I kind of take Stalky Boi's approach; you bring in Keys, you get no mercy. No hatch! :)
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I play mostly Solo as my friends and I aren't able to synch our schedules that often. That and I'm not entirely comfortable with SWF unless we all agree to talk about anything but the game while playing. :) But the direct answer to your question is yes, I'm far more likely to get angry at my Survivor teammates (Solo or SWF) than I am the Killer. The monster trying to kill us is just doing his/her job. Nothing within the rules is going to tilt me. The only exceptions are slugging everyone and making everyone bleed out, pretending to give the hatch for sick jollies slamming it on that person's face, or pretending to let someone leave via the gate for the same sick jollies. Those actions are just bad manners, a breaking of the fourth wall where the intent is to upset the Player and there is no in-game purpose. Those are the ONLY things I get mad at the Killer for doing that are within the rules. Hacks and Lag Spikes anger me because it is cheating, and after game salt and hate speech is just bad sportsmanship.
However, my Survivor Teammates can just doom us all for a multitude of reasons, and it mostly amounts to bad play. So yeah, they aren't doing their job and it often enough to irritates me.
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@Mandy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2251125#Comment_2251125
Mondays are to be blamed for lots of things!
I suppose so, but to say things have been wacky is an understatement. :)
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@Mandy said:
I will keep saying it, but no MMR is not active at the moment in the matchmaking sense, it's collecting data only. It's not matchmaking at all, we will communicate prior to (when/if) MMR is turned on, as we have done in the past.
I believe you Mandy, but something is up. I haven't pulled these kinds of opponents so consistently in MONTHS.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Well, if it is on, are you sure that your gameplay isn't reflective of those other rank 16 Survivors, just with the old pip system inflating your "ranking" purely from playtime?
I'm pretty sure. :)
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@Boss said:
I'd really rather not, i'd hate the feeling of watching a Spotlight, seeing a cool new Perk and then hearing i can't equip it on my main.
And this answer is the strongest I think so far. I fully understand and even agree with it. I am concerned, however, that short of a major changes either bringing all Killers up to the speed of high mobility types or bringing them back down, that the DEV have kind of painted themselves into a corner when it comes to trying to balance future Perks. For example, who makes better use of Tinkerer, a 105-115% speed Killer who gets the distant notification, or the speed demons or teleporters? :) The Perks are already extremely unequal in that respect. It feels, at least to me, like we are bumping up against a ceiling now.
But I will defer to the majority. My concern about design space is not shared by most. I just think balance is going to get worse, not better from here on in, by in large because of the very differences and variations that make our Killers interesting.
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I'm talking about "design space" something that the DEV are rapidly running out of due to the huge differences in types of Killers. Undying is an example, but there are lots more. There are lots of Perks which are oppressive and strangling on certain types of Killers that they are not on others. The more Killers we get the less design space for Perks we get.
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@BrokenSouI said:
No. There's literally no perk that is too powerful or broken on any killer.
I don't know if I agree with that. :) The reason Undying had to be changed wasn't because it was bad on a Myers, Clown, Trapper, etc. but rather because it was ungodly powerful on a Spirit, a Freddy, etc. In other words, the Perk was pretty good for about a quarter of the Killers, not upsetting the apple cart. In fact, it really changed up how some of those Killers played. What I'm suggesting is that Killers do come in certain general groupings these days, and going forward there are Perks we cannot consider or build because of the drastic differences between the types.
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Please delete or edit your post. We are not supposed to name or shame. And as I stated in my OP this is directed at all Content Providers.
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@Northener1907 said:
I'm opening this topic to understand our friends who play the other role. So i am asking killer mains. But survivor mains also can answer. Different opinions will give us different perceptions. Next time i will open different topic for killers problem and i will ask survivors mains but today lets talk about tunnel and camp.
How are you feeling about tunnelling and camping when you play survivor? And when you get tunnel one after another. Do you feeling mad to that killers or just respecting him tactic and gameplay?
I feel that countering Tunneling (if/when it happens) is the responsibility of the Survivors. I play both roles, about equally. When I have teammates that do safe rescues, bring anti-tunnel Perks, take protection hits, sabotage hooks, steal chases, do shoulder rescues, and even trade hooks I find that I get tunneled very rarely. This used to happen a lot more than it does now. The Solo Queue has been denuded of Players that understand this (mostly going into SWF) and thus we are left with an situation where you cannot count on your teammates. It is a negative feedback loop where more and more it is "every Survivor for themselves" and that is a slow death against any Killer. The problem isn't the tactic, but rather a lack of response on the other side.
When it comes to the tactics themselves (Tunneling, Camping, etc.), they happen a lot less frequently than those complaining about them imply. Moreover, the option for them to happen must exist. Dead by Daylight is a very simple game. If it were dumbed down anymore, reduced entirely to looping (for example) it would die. It would become boring. So as frustrating as it may be to be tunneled or camped now and then, it is the variety of things a Killer might do which keep the game from being ritualistic and entirely predictable. Consider what would happen if we did find a way to remove those tactics entirely. The game would be nothing but looping and hide and seek. *The hide and seek part being largely moot given the number of ways you can be revealed even when you do it right.
Thus, in a pure chase/looping game there are only so many "moves" to make. Every chase would be a replay of dancing around the terrain in an attrition play over and over again. It would not hold interest very long. Choices, even frustration ones, are what allow Player agency and variety. If anything we need more potential choices, not less. Thus the solution to this problem (if it is a problem) already exists. Survivors just need to get "Old School" and back to basics. The Killers are just doing what they have ALWAYS done. It is the response that changed.
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@hailxsatanxeveryxday said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2242281#Comment_2242281
Got my first memorial in a while. I guess I was just having ######### luck.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2242291#Comment_2242291
Yeah, but they shouldn't be outright impossible to work with. Remove JT's speed reduction and the insane stalk requirement might be worth it. Maybe.
On the other hand, I actually did have my survivor team get steamrolled yesterday by an infinite EWIII Tombstone Myers, which I thought would be impossible, but something like that's pretty rare. When I try that, the exit gates are open before I'm even close.
But Myers is hard to work with at all without upgrades. They should at least remove the per-survivor stalk limit and either allow Tombstone to Mori people on the ground, or else remove or drastically the speed limit on Tombstone. Myers is a mid-tier M1 killer without addons, and he takes some practice to learn; he should get a real power trip every few games.
Use them now, as against Potatoes is the only time that is going to have a functional chance of working. Use Play With Your Food too. You can get your speed back up a bit. :)
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@skylerbound said:
Literally 3 times this weekend. I pull up their stream afterward and they’re each playing a 4 man(one 3 man) swf with comms. Like the whole endgame chat with one was talking about how badass soloQ team they have
why is this a thing?
Because they don't want to admit the competitive edge, i.e. want to look better than they are in fact.
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@Laluzi said:
Wouldn't Lethal and Corrupt be a bad combo? Corrupt makes survivors move from their initial location, and because they're confused and wandering around looking for an uncorrupted gen, directional data you get from Lethal won't be particularly reliable if there's a lot of walking distance between you and the survivors. Makes way more sense to me to run one or the other.
No it isn't a bad combination. You only get seven seconds anyway, so which direction they are pointed is important. Corrupt Intervention makes it more or less pointless for the Survivors to stay put (and if they are doing that you see them), and Lethal Pursuer lets you know know which of them are heading toward the available Generators or a Totem for the Intercept. Every time I've used the two together I've made the first intercept within 15-20 seconds and had my first 1-2 Hooks before the first Generator is complete.
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My view is they either need to do it, or admit it doesn't work. It shouldn't be taking this long to gather data and tweak it.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2247886#Comment_2247886
They won´t tell us how the system gathers it data. What it considers good skill. Simply because people would then abuse that knowledge to trick the system into getting easier matches.
The last 24h test worked fine for me. I had fair matches on both sides. The only people that complained were streamers. Which logically have a huge skill difference to everyone else and therefore are getting much harder matches than everyone else.
SWF is breaking the mmr, so i guess they already accounted for it and the game tracks who gets regularly matched with whom. Adapting the mmr accordingly.
I hope you are right but right now the MMR System is like Bigfoot or a Unicorn, oft reported but nobody much believes anymore.
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I happened to like indoor maps and haven't seen a licensed one that I didn't like yet.
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They should probably just be honest with us; it is never going to work. About a year now of gathering data and every field test a bust. It won't work, can't work, because of SWF. No formula works because of the way a SWF interacts and can be built. Think about the different variations.
- Do they average the rating of all the Survivors combined and that is matched with a Killer rating within a certain margin?
- Or should all Survivors match the Killer's rating within a certain margin?
- When people build a SWF with radically different Ratings, #2 above won't work.
- Can the entire MMR be undone simply by someone creating a new account and joining a SWF?
- How would a complex formula possibly work with the Queues. Currently matchmaking takes 2nd to Queues.
- And about that Rating, how the heck is it calculated. Why won't they tell us?
- I mean if it is rated on Kills or Escapes, those numbers are wildly erratic based on farming, disconnects, Rifts, etc.
- Does it take hours into account? If so, wouldn't one member of the team having new hours toss the whole thing in the bin?
- The MMR rating is supposed to be different for different Killers so that implies the only think they can measure is Kills.
- What data, exactly is it gathering. Why won't they tells us? I'm pretty sure after a certain point gathering more data doesn't affect the bell curve much. What could they possibly know about me in two weeks that they didn't know about me six months ago? The collecting data thing is just kind of moot because clearly the data they use doesn't work.
I'm not trying to sound like a Debbie Downer. At this point I'm more of a Pragmatic Pete. It doesn't work. It isn't going to work. You might as well come clean and tell us it isn't going to work so expectations are properly set.
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@Itslat3ncy said:
I know its pretty, but the new Map is an instant dc for me. It's not gonna be fun for either side. It's an indoor map like Lerys, but has limited amounts of areas to cut through the map. It's also gigantic and a maze which will mean you will spend most of your time just walking around it and not finding anyone or any gens which is just boring because there's no interaction. I'm fine with the loops on the map to be fair, but that's about it. Devs pls make it smaller and not a maze.
I know it's true to Resident Evil, but it doesnt not fit dbd. Anyways, those are my thoughts though, let me now what you think
Ok, but isn't this just Cartman's philosophy from South Park, i.e. "screw you guys, I'm going home." Aren't you immediately screwing over four other Players who probably do have every intention of playing that map. You realize what a bad faith and poor sportsmanship move that is right? You won't be in the right, you will be an entitled, selfish person who knows the rules against disconnecting and does it anyway. You will deserve every ban you earn and hopefully they will accrue so quickly that you soon can't play at all. Good riddance.
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@Steah said:
I actually can't believe we are at the point where we are complaining about wraith.
I agree; I certainly never expected to be at this point. :) And I wouldn't say I'm complaining. I'm not much of a naysayer by nature. I'm more proactive, and prefer to try to work through my problems myself. That is what I've been doing, but not too that much effect. I'm hoping for others to provide me with some additional counter play that I've overlooked or they have discovered that I have not. That is why I'm so thorough when I post, so people know what I've already tried and done.
I am quite hopeful that I've missed something because I'm well-aware that THIS Wraith is here to stay awhile. Changes don't happen that fast. It is adapt or die. So I'm not so much complaining as adding to the discussion and hoping to learn something new I can use. If I find something that works, I'm going to post about it right away. I'm kind of hopeful, although I haven't gotten ANY Wraiths in the PtB yet to test it, that Flash Bang and Blast Mine will light burn a Wraith. Me and mine are trying to test more and more group builds using flashlights to try and knock him out and slow him down without getting hit in the process.
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@glitchboi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2247333#Comment_2247333
Well actually, he can only see auras with that one add-on, and I think we can all agree that add-on is busted af. Same with silent bell, which requires an ultra rare add-on, however it is also busted. I think base-kit Wraith is balanced, but those add-ons need to be looked at.
If he's eating your ass you gotta make sure you aren't in a dead zone.
And erm... Billy, Blight, Spirit, and Oni all move way faster than Wraith, even with both of his top Windstorm add-ons.
Here are all of their movement speeds from using their powers in their base-kit. Wraith's maximum speed is listed below.
Wraith - 150%, 165% maximized with Windstorm add-ons
Billy and Blight - 230%
Spirit - 176%
Oni - 195.5%
There is a caveat though, a pretty big one and it bears directly on the "ease of use" problem with Wraith:
Wraith - 150%, 165% maximized with Windstorm add-ons - CONSTANT with no downside due to speed boost of lunge on uncloak.
Billy and Blight - 230% - TERRIBLE Turn ratios and/or must aim for terrain in the case of Blight to bounce. Easier to dodge.
Spirit - 176% - SHORT, relatively, durations and cannot see (must listen and/or track) during period.
Oni - 195.5% - SHORT, relatively, durations and less effective turn ratio.
*I cut and pasted what you said and annotated differences above. The point being that the uncloak time is entirely offset by the improved lunge coming out of it. In fact, all the the Wraith has to do is come into literal body contact (often done as a body block against the Survivor) and it is nearly impossible to avoid the hit. There is a point at which the speed difference has ZERO practical difference. Let me put it this way, is there REALLY any difference for the Survivor between 150-165% and say the Spirit's 176% speed when BOTH allow the Killer to overtake a head start, pass the Survivor and make the hit? The only REAL difference is the size of the head start the Killer can overcome, and let's tell the truth and shame the devil here, the Wraith is never having to overcome much (if any) of a head start anymore. :)
The only head start the Wraith ever faces is the range at which Spine Chill activates. If the Survivor (with that Perk) IMMEDIATELY starts to move toward some kind of defensive tile, they "might" make it. I use the word "might" because it takes optimal position and having the Wraith coming from the right direction. At 150% speed, the Wraith will cover that head start so quickly it isn't even funny. I'm not trying to be alarmist here. I've just done the math, played with the geometry, and started trying to figure out how I can (in a reliable way) overcome the new obstacle. That is the kind of Player I am. No matter how I crunch the numbers the only counter for a Solo is pure luck, i.e. enough unused Pallets and vaults to buy time and hope the Wraith breaks off. The only OTHER counter play requires "old school" Survivor teamwork.
So let's get into the real nitty gritty here. Fighting the new Wraith requires the entire team of Survivors to constantly be protecting one another. That is the ONLY non-luck counter play against him. Protection hits, stealing chases, blinds/burns, and so on will work. It is possible, but unlikely. In short, the days when you could rely on a Solo Queue to provide you enough people who play this way are long gone. It means you need a SWF straddling the line between altruism and Generators with very little margin for error. Have I put this to the test already? You betcha! Against a well-coordinated Solo Queue of the highest quality, or a SWF willing to take protection hits, swap hooks, and all that Jazz you have real counter play other than drop that pallet early. So again I'm faced with a simple, unavoidable truth; the only counters to the new Wraith are exactly the same as those to the Spirit whom everyone complains about already.
My conclusions, having tested in game, done the geometry and simple math, and spent many hours theorizing and testing non-conventional counters is that giving the base speed buff, the true invisibility beyond a certain range, and the superior lunge coming out of cloak was simply too much. At least when he didn't have "true" invisibility, a sharp-eyed alert person could get a slightly longer head start. Or when the lunge wasn't so damn effective, they could mind game or counter play at the loops. The truth is I have better results fighting a Spirit than I do a Wraith. I know that is going to rub people the wrong way, but I'm forced to use the SAME limited tactics and counter play and the Wraith is simply less affected by them. I have faith the metrics are going to very quickly tell the story and this is situation that is only going to become more and more clear as the months go on. For now, your best way to fight a Wraith is not to get made in the first place. You have to go PURE stealth and hope he doesn't have the add-on when he swings past.
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@MrCrazyCat62 said:
Personally I don't see much value in it. Finding survivors isn't to complicated if you have good game sense.
Finding Survivors isn't complicated. Intercepting them fast and getting your first hook within thirty seconds absolutely has value. The game sense, in this situation, comes from forcing the Survivors to fight from behind right from the start of the match. Most of this is theoretical, unless you have been in the PtB testing it as some of us have. My own experiences with the combination have been rather gratifying.
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@quazzi76 said:
Okay first off Camping, slugging, tunneling, etc are all forms of killings okay, toxic or not - Agreed. Then Devs ask you to display good sportsmanship. If killers are allowed to do that how is that good sportsmanship? Gamers will say use defensive strike or borrowed time, get better, etc. That is not the point killers are allowed to use un-sportmen like conduct. If this "WAS" a sport where is the sportsmanship's conduct in camping, tunneling, slugging. You get hit, get knocked down, hooked, camped, unhooked, tunneled, hit again, borrowed time, tunneled, hit again downed, defensive strike, tunneled, downed again, and re-hooked. Repeat dead. Where is the sportsman like conduct? Yeah the killer could loose the game that way. Was it thrown for just chasing one person? If a survivor chooses not to participate in that style/formate of a game they are unsportsmanlike. (?) Killers don't have to show good conduct just players? Where does the code of conduct lay? You play 5 random games, all similar in format, is that fun? To me no. We just have to wait for one decent killer out of X# of tries?
Good sportsmanship includes all behavior within the rules. That means, by default, those behaviors all fall within good sportsmanship. The only things someone in Dead by Daylight needs to abide by, to be a good sport, are:
- Don't cheat, either by hack or lag spike.
- Don't disconnect; if you start a game, finish it.
- Be humble in victory and gracious in defeat.
That's it. That is all you have to do. The things you are talking about are irrelevant to the equation because they are just part of the game. Please do not conflate your personal preferences, morals, or morays with rules.
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@DwightFairfield said:
These perks activate once and then don't reactivate for the rest of the game
Why run them if you don't get any more use out of them once the time is up? Especially if you run both.
It would depend on your Killer and personal play style, but I can certainly see some serious benefit. Running both together would all but ensure that you get your first hook, probably several before the first Generator comes up. You will intercept the Survivors almost immediately and prevent them for using that first two minutes of Corrupt Intervention effectively to spread out, and/or hunt Totems. For Killers, in my experience at least, the first 2-3 minutes of the game are really important. It is at the start of the game where it is decided if the Killer is playing from behind the Eight Ball, or leading the dance. In short, it is far easier for a Killer to come from behind than it is for Survivors. That is why Survivors want that first Generator popping before (or about the same time) as the first hook. Running those two Perks, even being a one and done situation, usually prevents that.
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I've already stated in another thread that I don't see that much "practical application" difference between having to fight against the new Wraith and Spirit. I have to use the same techniques against both. Spirit has a higher ceiling, but Wraith appears to be easier to learn for the Killer Player. So what you have is a high mobility Killer whose ability to down is merely a matter of time, and not that much of it. The main defense appears to be dropping the pallet early and hoping to have a LOT of them. :)
I'm not a "the sky is falling" sort of person. Anyone who has read my posts will know I'm not particularly alarmist and will almost always defer to the notion that it takes a decent bit of time to really get a good feel on whether a particular release is good/balanced yet. I don't feel that way this time. Why? Because I'm watching people ten Ranks worse, relatively new Players decimate Red/Purple squads of Survivors. The chief issue is that Wraith is so EASY to play. At least with Spirit you have to learn to "listen" and get the basics of your trick down. Wraith doesn't have this hurdle. He is a point and shoot Killer; that's it.
He only just got this buff and we are already seeing a shift. This means without any real time in grade or practice, Wraith is shooting to the front of the line in metrics. How is that going to look in a month or two when people have really gotten to practice with him? The issue for those fighting against the Wraith is that there isn't any more counter play to learn over time. Thus, the Wraith can continue to get better, while the Survivors hit the ceiling of what they can do to counter him. Do you see my point? Right now I'm going against the grain of a LOT of people, many of them time-honored veterans here. I hope I am wrong; I will be happy to be wrong. I just don't think I am in this case. The margin for error in balance with high mobility Killers is very small; I think they overshot the mark with Wraith.
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@CLAUDETTEINABUSH said:
When we talk about changes I think that killers feel entitled to demand changes, but generally I find that survivors are more entitled. But I admit that only I meet more entitled survivors since there are generally more survivor mains than survivor mains.
There are no sides. This entire line of thinking is evidence of fuzzy thinking. We are all just PLAYERS and most of us play both roles. As PLAYERS we all want the game to be as roughly balanced as possible. Please leave this false dichotomy nonsense in the garbage can where it belongs.
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@TwitchyMike said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2243238#Comment_2243238
Agreed. And @Moundshroud Yes I would only want them to do it in a classic yet edgy way to do Dracula justice. I'm not saying Cheesy but I'm not saying Twilight either lol.
But that is the problem, Dead by Daylight is essentially a chase game. Like the 80s and 90s slashers it is jump scares and in your face horror. The closest it can come to gothic terror is a skin, and that isn't going to do justice to the Impaler. Stoker's vampires were subtle, deadly creatures not in your face monsters (although I'm sure they could be when the need arose). Reducing the Count to a chasing people around a map would be tragic no matter how it is done. We would end up with something more akin to that Dracula in the horrible Van Helsing movie staring Hugh Jackman. I just don't think a chase game can do gothic horror.
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@onemind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2243752#Comment_2243752
No it dosent guarantee an escape it extends it by like 20s+ just like hot that would end it quicker
So? Longer matches means more points and emblem advancement for the Killer. Do you know how many matches I could end in 3-5 minutes that I stretch to 10+ just to maximize Pips? Besides, everyone "good" uses Dead Hard the same way, i.e. as an extension to try to make a vault or a pallet, etc. The moment you see that you can just not waste the swing. They will waste the Dead Hard. They don't really have a choice because I'll just keep coming until I'm literally touching them to get them to use it. If they don't, then I hit them.
All Perks, tactics, etc. can be annoying. Dead Hard used properly definitely extends chases, but again... SO WHAT? Are you in that big a hurry? If you are Herding your Survivors properly the chases are going to your next Generator to check on your route anyway. If you keep proper pressure up, who cares if the odd chase goes long? I'm not making light of your frustration; I'm saying it isn't that big a deal.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b-FFwVFMME@onemind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2243630#Comment_2243630
Imagine every 40s you could press e to insta down a surivor sounds fair
That's deadhard
No, not it isn't. :) I play both Killer and Survivor. I take on pretty much nothing but Red Rank Survivors with the odd Purples thrown in. Dead Hard is a regular part of the loadout. It is just something you learn to work around. Dead Hard does not guarantee an escape anymore than NOED guarantees a Kill.
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@Beelzeboop said:
Hey, it's me, the entitled guy again.
I noticed this recently while thinking about arguments against DH, and trying to explain why it generally feels like you've been cheated when it's used against you, and then I realized how incredibly similar it was to NOED in function if not form.
I'll go over the main points, cause I don't have any skill when it comes to writing and this seems to be the only way I can present an argument.
- They both reward you for failure. NOED rewards you with easy downs and extra speed if you let the EGC start, which requires you to either "let" all the gens go or close the hatch. DH rewards you with extra distance and let's you stay up when you would normally go down (I'm dancing around the term "third healthstate" here) if you get injured.
- They both have inconsistent counters. They both require you to know about the perk beforehand. I don't even need to explain this point, really. "Just do bones" and "Just bait it out" are equally stupid "counters" no matter what you say. You can't cleanse all the totems yourself unless you ignore gens (or run Counterforce), and half the killer attack animations give the survivors enough information to press E before the hit lands.
- Neither of them require much skill to get significant use out of them. NOED doesn't require you to change your playstyle at all to get use out of it (unless you're playing as an instadown killer), since it just makes all survivors exposed and makes the killer faster. DH just requires you to have basic timing and perception skills and the ability to consistently not run into walls.
- They both remove a good deal of agency from the other side. Killer is based almost completely on punishing mistakes, to the point that what qualifies as an S tier killer is just being not entirely reliant upon survivors screwing up. With how much time it usually takes to maneuver into a position that can guarantee a hit, missing when you do that can actually cost you the game. Everyone already knows how NOED works at this point.
- They're both horribly inconsistent to use somehow. Dedicated servers can easily make you their ######### if you're a DH user, and often will. If the survivors are really on the ball (which ironically is the only time NOED should work) they can work together to cleanse your totems. Admittedly, you kinda deserve it if it doesn't work, but it's still annoying as ######### when it happens.
What they have in common is entitled, people endlessly whining about them. Both Perks are fine.
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No, I'm definitely down for a nice, dank, enclosed sewer maze!
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I'm still having a blast. If I wasn't, I wouldn't be here. I would have already set out to find the next game. The more important question, since you are so unhappy, is why are YOU still here?
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@Friendly_Blendette said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2243241#Comment_2243241
Like a lot of my games I dont struggle as bad but its the games where all the survivors are like going into the game with their only plan being to stealth with 4 urbans 2 fixated and 4 iron wills as claudettes.
Trust me, it gets better. Learn to watch the crows. You get to where you can spot a bird taking flight from the other side of the map. You get a feeling good measure of how much was done on a Generator and KNOW that it took more than one in the time since you last checked. That means one is right behind near terrain. There are lots of helpful Perks: Whispers and Spies from the Shadows are good. Stridor is also helpful.
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@Friendly_Blendette said:
Like I just had a game against 4 claudettes on dead dawg where the longest chase was 13 seconds and most of them were like 7 but the issue was I couldnt find anyone. Literally my only info perk is rancor cause thats all the bloodweb gave me. How do you deal with stealth because it is like the main thing I am struggling with. When I find people I down them pretty quick but my issue is just finding people.
Practice. I wish I could offer you a better answer, but you just get better and hunting over time to the point where they can't avoid you forever.
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@TwitchyMike said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2242624#Comment_2242624
You're right he is before their time. He is a more iconic horror creature than any 80's or 90's slasher.
Absolutely; you get no argument from me there. However, I'm not sure he would be done proper honor by whatever campy style slasher creature they would have to do to make him work in DbD.
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@aroell said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2242935#Comment_2242935
That’s literally not the same thing, you never know what people are going through so why make their gaming experience miserable? I always bring borrowed time and take hits for recently unhooked teammates but if the killer wants to tunnel they will. Nothing you can do about that. Just say that you enjoy tunneling and don’t have any sense of empathy
They are exactly the same in that they are ridiculous statements. This is the GAME. It is a PvP situation with Killers and Survivors. Their roles are clearly defined in the names. Nobody can ruin your gaming experience but you. YOU come to the game with unrealistic expectations, and expect other people to be responsible for your fun and outcome. I don't go play Tennis or go Fencing and expect my opponents to give me any gimme points. There are other games out there which are not PvP; if you need something less stressful then gravitate to one. You have two options; either reset your expectations so you can have fun playing the game as it stands now, or you can keep complaining about something and lying to yourself.
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@aroell said:
I literally don’t understand what’s so hard about not tunneling. And why are people even defending it? If you are a tunneler just say that
I literally don't understand what so hard about not getting downed and avoiding the hook. Why are you making excuses for it? If you are terrible at the game, just say that. :) See how ridiculous that sounds? The Killer's job is to catch and kill you. The Survivor's job is to get the Generators up, the gates open, and get out. It is not the Killer's responsibility to protect Survivors; that is the job of other Survivors. If you make unsafe rescues, don't bring appropriate Perks, and don't take protection hits, trade hooks, do rescues, sabotage hooks, or steal chases, then you are the one steering the Killer to his/her next target.
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MadLordJack's comments above are all on the nose, and the same thing I would have said. Don't sweat the idiotic stuff.
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Who we are missing is Rutger Hauer's original "The Hitcher."
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Hey, my Spooky Myers likes that map. It is one of the few outdoor maps which he really shines on! I like it better than Lerys actually.
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Dracula isn't, per say, an 80s or 90s Slasher Killer icon. :)
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The Trapper because he has a mind; Jason does not.
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And in fairness, I have a friend deployed right now, who REALLY wants the new Bill cosmetics. He has me grinding for him, so while I normally play under the name Mr. Moundshroud, I'm also out and about under his name earning him BP while he keeps the nation safe. :) In fairness, he is also a Red Rank Killer, so I'm not taking advantage of any easy marks.
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@onemind said:
I just got put against a full team as nurse and I'm not the best nurse but they all had iron will and I just started thinking if I was spirit theres no counter play to that
So please tell me what's the counteplay to iron will
I'll wait
You eyes? :) Crows. Whispers. Spies from the Shadows. There are tons. Iron Will is good against those who hunt by sound alone.
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@Crowman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2242395#Comment_2242395
It was Myers on Badham and I think you were playing Scratch Mirror without a Map Offering. It was several tomes ago.
You certainly lost that match, but I do remember being impressed that you used the Stalk mechanic to lose collision to go through me when I was body blocking an injured survivor at the end of the game.
It was probably me. I do that often. I hope for a rematch. I've gotten where I can win Badham with Spooky now. :)
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@Crowman said:
I played against Sluzzy once and they suicided on hook.
I also believe I played against @Moundshroud once.
Really was I the Killer or a Survivor? You have my permission to talk about the match (shame or honor)? :)
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Yes. :)