MigrantTheGreat
MigrantTheGreat
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@WeenieDog said:
Bothsides: ITS REQUIRED!
Killer: Yes, because of the way the core game is designed
Survivor: Yes but no. Yes because of how killer's play, but it doesn't matter. If your good at survivor, you really don't need meta perks.
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@Exxodus21 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2543227#Comment_2543227
You can learn to predict what the player is going to do though. You can watch and see if they're the type to fake phase, or see if they anticipate survivors slow vaulting and phase to the correct side, do they quickly notice a survivor doubling back, etc.
I have to agree with this. This is why I enjoyed playing against Spirit because she's the definition of PvP. Your suppose to trial and error and notice a pattern in your opponent to beat them.
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Really can't be mad at survivors for doing their objective, but it does show that gen rushing is a thing.
Problem is, there is no way to address it because it's a core game issue, that stems from bad maps, poor killer designs, and overall survivors not having enough objectives prior to gens since they depend on the killer for a optional objective
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Imma let out my bias opinions here
Killers
I feel that killers are forced into running meta perks because of core game
Gens go too fast because survivors lack a objective prior to gens
Horrible map designs
Poorly designed killers
Survivors
I feel that survivor shouldn't have a meta because if you get good at survivor you really don't need the meta, but the reason why they run meta perks is because
90% of the time they base their build off of how killers are playing
Meta perks makes the game easier for them
Because survivors love chases they, run perks to prolong chases.
That's just my bias opinion though. As a killer I usually run 2 gen defense perks so that I can actually have fun, wave as a survivor I completely stop running the meta because it made gameplay stale
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@[Deleted User] said:
If you're not having fun with the game anymore you don't need to quit, you just need to take a break. And then come back when you feel like playing again. If it's still not fun then take more time away from the game.
Thing about this logic is that DBD doesn't change. I took a 2 month break and came back. After playing fur 3 days I was reminded why I stopped playing.
When you take a break from most pvp games, a lot of things change. DBD isn't that.
When I came back to dbd and got back into the high ranks. Nothing had changed. The meta was still gen defense and second chance perks, camping and tunneling hasn't been addressed, survivor is still brain dead easy its not fun, killer is still a sweat fest and stressful.
That's why people take a break because when they comeback, they hope something has changed.
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@GannTM said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2539088#Comment_2539088
I mean survivors couldn’t really use their brains before anyway because there’s no information for them to work with. Now it’s an interactive battle between the survivor and killer and Spirit still has control because she simply moves 76% faster than survivors default.
Actually survivors could use their brain, problem is survivors couldn't change their plsystyle and take risks to figure out counterplay. Kinda like fighting games. You have to take risks to get somewhere.
Yes Spirit still has speed, but that speed is useless when survivors have ears and can pinpoint your location and can act accordingly. Or in other words, the speed is pointless if survivors are receiving too much information in the moment.
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@IronKnight55 said:
She obviously wasn't gutted. People just don't like that she finally has counterplay now. She's still a VERY GOOD killer in the right hands.
Your part of the percentage that either doesn't have enough play time with Spirit, or let's their survivor bias blind you from the truth.
As a dedicated Spirit main, we are not upset that she has counterplay. We are upset that they essentially nerfed what made her kit unique, and now survivors require no brain to play against her, meanwhile she has no mindgame potential at all anymore.
Yes any killer is good in the right hands, but with this nerf doesn't matter how good her player is, if survivors have ears they'll beat her at any loop because she gives too much information as to what her kit was designed for.
I made a video 2 months ago saying "If you nerf Spirit, you either butcher her kit or you make her unfun to play" and BHVR killed 2 birds with 1 stone
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@Mr_K said:
PTBs typically go live with little changes if any.
This! BHVR usually doesn't change anything from PTB and I'm assuming it's because they wanna see how the numbers differ on live servers.
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@GannTM said:
She is still invisible and moves at 176% movement speed compared to survivors’ 100%. Survivors just have counterplay now and it feels like an interactive battle between the killer and survivor, even though the killer has most of the control as they should.
The only thing that was gutted about Spirit was the stand still stupid ######### which I’m glad is getting removed. It absolutely needed to go. It was a cute little thing the first time you witness it but there’s just nothing good about it.
Good Spirit players like myself will be just fine after this nerf and she’s going to be even more fun than before because of the counterplay she has been given.
Also, one last thing I would like to say is I know that this is my 100th time mentioning Spirit since the nerf announcement but I’m just very excited for what’s about to come for Rin.
I played against her in the PTB a day ago and I purposely took off IW.
She's way too easy to play against. I don't even have to try and listen to track her while phasing.
If your at a loop and you try to loop her she might as well be a 110 M1 killer.
If she's not allowing you to loop, than you can literally run through a pallet, and throw it down and she has no choice but to break the pallet since she's easily tracked.
Honestly I'd rather play against live servers Spirit because at least she required a brain to play against.
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@GannTM said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2520171#Comment_2520171
No please keep playing her, we need to keep Spirit relevant together!
Didn't say I wasn't going to stop playing her, she just not my go to killer for sweaty games anymore.
Plus I haven't played DBB since the SBMM PTB because I'm burnt out
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@GannTM said:
I've seen a lot of people say that they hate playing her because she "gives free wins" and what not. After the nerf goes live, she definitely won't be in that spot anymore. Will you consider her to be one of your mains or even just character that you'll play as every now and then? I would hate for her to become as rare as Billy and Plague.
Also sorry for yet again another Spirit thread by me but I just can't stop thinking about this nerf and also I love her to death.
Spirit will always have a place in my heart. But when it comes to high ranks, I won't be playing her due to the fact that they are giving her easy mode counterplay.
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@Apexgnifrums said:
Yessss! Finally the treatment this boring ass low skill guessing killer it deserved. Now people actually have to use brain and not just guess.
All the spirit mains with their awesome headsets have to use brain aswell now.
Finally, never thought this would happen. I think it's time to install DbD again and play it once it's live.
Thanks bhvr
Low skill, use their brain?
You wanna call Spirit these things, but survivor doesn't even require having a brain attached to your ######### to play.
Better yet remember this post. When Blight gets nerfed and gutted and Nurse is the only killer your playing against at high ranks, remember how every killer strong killer got nerfed when you complain about a lack of variety in killers at high ranks.
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I feel that Third Seal shouldn't be a hex perk. It feels like it should be more of a timer perk after hitting a survivor.
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@GannTM said:
Yes Spirit needed a change and I’m not going to act like she didn’t. However, you only take one side into consideration. Iron Will users will be next to impossible to catch because they can hear where you are and you have NO INFO on where they are. Isn’t that the same exact issue survivors had with Spirit?
Congrats Iron Will, you have officially been crowned as my least favorite perk in the whole game. You’re a disgrace to the game and to all perks and I hope you get nerfed to the ground hard. It’s hard for me to actually hate Dead Hard and NOED anymore now.
To survivors, I better never hear “Spirit is OP” or “ Spirit takes no skill” anymore. If you still say that, then I honestly don’t know what to say.
As a dedicated Spirit main, this nerf is going ot hurt her simply because BHVR is giving survivor's too much information and defeating the purpose of Rin Yamoka's kit.
Her kicking up dust when she's phasing was a good idea, but the fact that they are giving her a directional phasing sound defeats the purpose of her kit.
I said this in one of my video's I posted 2 months ago, there is simply no way to nerf Spirit without butchering or defeating the purpose of her kit. BHVR did exactly that and now Spirit is about to fall off the top tier killer list as they are implamenting something that was already tested and was confirmed made her weak.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8fTlqAXmFE&t=369sIf this cycle continues the killer community will die since right now Nurse, Spirit, and Blight are the only strong killer's keeping the killer community alive
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@scorpio said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2508737#Comment_2508737
It’s an exhaustion perk not a second chance perk.
Second chance perks pretty much give you a extra health state, and DH does that when it's used for distance. Therefore it is both a exhaustion and second chance perk.
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Eruption is mostly good on killers with good map mobility and great chase pressure, or other words Nurse, Spirit, and Blight.
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@WexlerWendigo said:
They’ve had years to make her more balanced and fun, and have done next to nothing. I’m tired of loading into a match, only to go against someone who has 10 hours in the game, because they’re playing a killer that takes zero skill. It’s just easy mode, which should not be in a competitive game.
Let us have fun please, instead of forcing us to go against this garbage!
I honestly don't see what the problem is with Spirit when she's one of the only killers that feels like PVP when I play against her.
Have you tried changing your playstyle to play against her? Or are you complaining because you've gone brain dead to Shift + W and Ring Around The Pallet counter play? Or are you upset that she doesn't have consistent counter play which shouldn't be a thing in a PvP game.
Playing against Spirit is like playing a fighting game. Eventually you have to risk something in order to get somewhere.
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I'm a loving addict that struggling to pick a favorite song. So I'll give my top 3 songs
Miscél - String Along
Aso - Closer
Xander - Evening Stroll
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@Animal_Mother said:
I am more curious about high MMR killers, but everyone can feel free to answer.
I would guess high MMR would lead to more burnout and less time spent in the game. How has MMR affected the number of games you play on average? Play more? Play 25% fewer matches than before? 50%? Quit?
I just uninstalled the game. Got to rank II and couldn't play casually. Hoped up on Nurse and Spirit and had to deal with a lot of salt. Got to rank 1 and realized I wasn't having fun.
Was having to sweat and deal with so much salt, that I simply refuse to make a YouTube video telling my viewers why I quit playing.
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@SasukeKun said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/Z4BW08TPVQOC/image.png
this is my opponents games every match 90% of the time. Every single person who milks this build has no skill as survivor in my opinion
sbmm isn't gonna do anything when this exists. It needs to go
Imo DH doesn't need to be nerfed. Ot just needs a risk factor added to it, because most second chance perks have a risk factor where DH doesn't.
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@latinfla4 said:
Title
Gens aren't the problem. The problem comes from survivor's lacking a objective piror to gens which mainly is a core game issue
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@FrostySeal said:
Getting constantly tunneled, camped, slugged, and gen rushed is even more unfun. Seriously what has this game come to? I don't wanna use DS, UB, and some other second chance perk but when I'm constantly getting left on the ground for minutes on end or getting tunneled out within minutes of the game it leaves me with no choice. I don't wanna have to use multiple gen slowdown perks but when I'm playing a Killer with no map mobility I'm forced to. Seriously, these issues were all present before SBMM but ever since it's been enabled it has really ramped up.
As a survivor you really don't have to run the same build. When I stopped running meta perks my game play improved significantly.
As a killer your forced to run slow down simply because without them, the match will go by too quickly and.
All in all, it's the games core issue that is the problem imo. I would love to see the meta shake up a bit, but the game design is preventing that
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@IlliterateGenocide said:
I feel like they should get rid of the instamori. atleast all but one. people think it takes alot of time to get to tier 3 with them. it does not.
he should also get faster pallet breaking in t3.
You can't get rid of the tombstone addons because of the Evil Incarnate achievement.
I personally think Mikey needs a add on pass and to just get rid of T1 and he'll be fine.
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@Triadequinaxor said:
Either fix her bugs that have been in t he g ame since release, and the stupid one when your blink and u cant m1 or else give her normal walk speed, give her the blight treatment/spirit, because theres no reason to choose nurse over spirit when its half the effort.
If BHVR does this, Nurse will break the game itself
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@JohnnyB87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2492317#Comment_2492317
What's the counterplay for Spirit? If you say looping or normal game mechanics, you don't understand counterplay. Even pros say there's no counterplay to Spirit, but you must be wiser. The only fix she needs is to not be able to fake phasing and she'd still be good. Nurse can't fake it, so why should Spirit be able to?
That's your mistake for listening to pro players and not expirmenting for yourself and walking your own path.
Spirit's counterplay comes from understanding how she thinks and since I'm a Spirit main it's a fair ball game to me. I like taking risk to see how she's playing. Sometimes I'll double back over my scratch marks walking. If she gets me than Ik not to trry that tactic again. Well I'm near the killer shack, I should head for the window or pallet; you know what Spirit is anticipating that so I should change my path and not be preditable. Well I'm at loop and ik for sure she's phasing, instead of running past the pallet trying to loop her I shouild throw the pallet down to try and at least distract her. All in all like I said "Survivor's are mad that she doesn't have consistant counterplay and say she has no counterplay because you can't play a certain way"
"The only fix she needs is to not be able to fake phasing" If you get rid of this, you essentially nerf her whole kit by giving her a indicator and the purpose of her kit is to trick survivor's. Like I said, survivor's want 100% information on what the killer is doing. This is why I say a lot of survivor's wouldn't like fighting games.
"Nurse can't fake it" That is where you are wrong! As a retired Nurse main, Nurse can actually blink into the grown to cancel the movement of her blink. Meaning that your attempt to juke her to force her to over blink was cancelled because she still blinked, but she didn't move. It would be like Spirit phasing in place, but she didn't press WASD
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@20_Henry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2491893#Comment_2491893
Spirit has little counter and some of Blights addons are broken, not the players fault just BHVR's
Spirit has counterplay. Problem is, survivors are use to just holding Shift + W to outplay a killer instead of changing their playstyle, and when they change their playstyle and still get outplayed, they complain because of a lack of consistent counterplay and there shouldn't be such thing as consistent counterplay.
Blights add-ons are fine imo. I don't have a problem playing against him.
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@20_Henry said:
Every. Single. Game. It's just blight and spirit with ruin and the strongest add-ons they have. It is so ######### boring. Can people who actually want mmr have their own queue or something?
And can we stop calling killers 'boring' because you can't play a certain way against them, or because your not having fun when killers aren't responsible for survivors fun please
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@20_Henry said:
Every. Single. Game. It's just blight and spirit with ruin and the strongest add-ons they have. It is so ######### boring. Can people who actually want mmr have their own queue or something?
What do you expect?
Top tier likes can actually stand a chance, aren't nerfed to where they have to play perfectly to stand a chance or have fun.
Running into top tier killers is literally the product of the game being unbalanced for SBMM
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@GannTM said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2490421#Comment_2490421
Her add ons need a look at and the stand still mind game should get removed. Other than that, she’s fine and she does take way more skill than people claim as well. Iron Will definitely needs a nerf.
1. Add-ons: Add-ons don't define a killer simply because you can change her add-ons and the problem is still there
2. Fake Phasing: While I agree, the problem with getting rid of her stand still is that you nerf and butcher her kit. Her kit is designed to trick survivors, to get rid of her fake phasing you need to give survivors a indicator which is essentially butchering what makes her unique.
3. Nerf IW: It doesn't need to be nerfed, it just needs to be fixed so it doesn't surpress other survivor sounds. I do run IW and as a Spirit main I pick up on every sound. There will be times when I'm running IW and my survivor won't make any breathing sounds.
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@GannTM said:
Arguments on why Spirit is a problem is that she’s too opaque as you can’t tell where she’s phasing making it impossible to counter her, and also that she takes no skill to play despite being powerful. Now, I’m a firm believer that Spirit should get changed to give survivors more information, so please keep that in mind before you verbally assault me over an opinion.
Now given these two reasons people bring up on why Spirit is a problem, couldn’t we say the exact same thing about Iron Will? Iron Will completely robs killers of information while in a chase as it makes it hard to mind game at certain tiles due to no sound cues that are so important for the killer to have. Also, does it take any skill whatsoever to slap on a perk that makes you almost completely silent while injured for the whole match with no downsides? Both seem very counter productive. And now after Stridor got nerfed, Iron Will is even more strong with it’s only counter being completely useless on every killer now.
Now, if you disagree with me, please feel free to have a reasonable debate with me. It’s fine if you disagree as this is just my opinion but this has been something that I’ve thought about lately and just wanted to get my thoughts out there to see what other people think.
Iron Will is way more problematic than Spirit, simply because Iron Will mutes almost all sounds survivors make.
Personally I think Spirit is fine, simply because survivors want every single detail the killer is doing to outplay her and I personally can't support that as counterplay because its like taking a test and having the answer key. On top of that, there is just no way to change spirit without butchering her kit or making her a A- killer that survivors can walk all over her.
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What does daddy Dwight have that David doesn't
Dwight has
Cake
Abs
Personality
Daddy vibes
Big [Bad Word] Energy
Unforgettable eyes
Orgasmic scream
The list goes on.
Dwight is 1000x better than David
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@OldHunterLight said:
His lunge is also bugged, and the crash happens randomly, I've gotten it when I use my chains and when trying to grab.
Somehow freddy is also bugged.
Shadowborn of all perks is bugged.
Lmfao Shadowborn? A perk that doesn't even affect the game is bugged.
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@CornHub said:
I want answers. The devs have shown they aren't afraid of handing out nerfs & reworking killers yet people believe they're hesitant to touch spirit, why? Am I supposed to believe the devs are willing to kill their game over a killer supposedly having no counterplay?
What's more likely, some people are getting outplayed by a killer or the devs have some secret pro-Spirit agenda & most of them are collaborating to prevent any change to her kit?
To put it simple. With the way Spirit's kit is, there's no way to nerf without making her unfun play as or butchering her kit. The problems people have with Spirit ultimately leads to butchering her kit or making her unfun to play as.
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@violetcherries said:
Correct.
Blaming poor gameplay on 'gen rush' is a way for killers to shift blame for their own inadequacy onto survivors.
Yes, because killer's like Legion and Pig definately have the map mobility to just drop a chase and head to the other side of the map to stop a gen from popping right?
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@SasukeKun said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2471403#Comment_2471403
The Stubburn survivor mains will defend anything that keeps them winning every match so. I hope it gets nuked like DS did
Some people just don't understand balance. It's instinct for each side to protect what makes them strong.
Just gotta hope SBMM gets the perk that rightful balance adjustment it needs.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2471038#Comment_2471038
No, they are just running a Perk.
Or are Killers "abusing" BBQ? Are Killers "abusing" Ruin? It is stupid to use the word "abuse" when players are just having Perks in their loadout.
Stupid mentality.
Besides, you did not get the problem when it only has the Invincibility - you gain nothing from it. The Killer misses a swing, afterwards, you are dead, because you are still in an area without defence.
You do realize that almost 99% killer perks are passive right? Meaning that you just slap it on and go, you have no control over weather it activates or not.
BBQ and Ruin are passive perks and you just can't press a button to get them to work.
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@Grimmy_Bluues said:
I think the better call is removing the ability to interact for 1.5s after using it. Can still use it for distance, but won't be the BS that it is now.
I said the same thing but apparently that ruins the perk.
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@Crowman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2471170#Comment_2471170
Dead Hard already locks you out of interactions while you are dashing. Meaning if you dash too close to a window you don't get a fast vault and get hit anyways or you dash pass the pallet and you miss the chance to drop it before the killer catches up.
You have to time Dead Hard pretty well to chain it into vaults and pallets.
And 2 seconds is a long time and no where in the perk description does it say that dead hard is meant to solely dodge killer swings. So you want to kill the most reliable way to use the perk (because good luck actually dodge a swing with dedicated servers) and survivors will just switch to sprint burst and then killers will start crying about sprint bursts.
It takes killers roughly 2s to recover from a whiffed attack so that's why I say 2s.
Yeah you can't interact while dashing, but that's still not risk factor, compared to DS or Soul Guard.
I'd rather deal with SB because survivors will eventually get caught by the killer in a dead zone or they'll be outpositioned or theyll.get caught while exhausted rather than deal with a perk that's no risk high reward.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2471153#Comment_2471153
When Injured, tap into your adrenaline bank and dash forward quickly to avoid damage.
- Press the Active Ability button while running to dash forward.
- Avoid any damage during the Dash.
Both times the Dash is mentioned first, which indicates it is the primary part of the effect.
So can we stop saying that the intended purpose is not to do the Dash?
Okay and?
I still don't see what the harm in locking survivors interactions to make the perk riskier is at vs no risk.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2471146#Comment_2471146
This would be the same like removing distance.
The intended purpose is to do a Dash. This is even in the Perks description. The secondary part is that you are invincible while doing the Dash.
Hence the purpose of the perk is to avoid taking a hit. Using it for distance is essentially abusing the perk because your not using it as intended.
I'm not essentially taking away the dash, I'm simply saying, for how the strong perk is and awards survivor with another health state. Add a risk factor to it. The perk is the apiffiny of no risk, high reward.
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The problem with DH is when it's used to get to a pallet or window. Imo just lock survivors interactions for 2 seconds.
The intended purpose of the perk was to avoid taking a hit.
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@FilthyLegionMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2469826#Comment_2469826
Have you just... tried not giving a #########?
You know whats funny about that. When you dgaf and still run into sweats, and gens gets knocked out instantly. It pushes you not to gaf about the game.
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@arkchild3 said:
He’s op as it is no need to have a unlimited tier it makes it unfair to survivor just make it add that increases the chances of tier 3 from less stalking
Have you heard of the achievement 'Evil Incarnate' ? It's were Mikey has to mori all 4 survivors with his power and there for infinite T3 most likely won't go away.
I would like for it to, but that achievement will keep that add on alive.
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@PsychoTron said:
SWF death squads: It's not fair. Why are we being punished just because we want to play with our friends.
Now we're only going to face nurses and blights running meta perks with thousands of hours.
Top killer mains: It's not fair. I put a lot of time and effort into this game to be good and now I'm being punished going against sweaty SWFs after SWFs.
How will I ever do my 50+ win streaks again??
____________________________________________________________________________
You're being matched against someone just as skilled as you. Sorry but no more lopsided matches for you.
My suggestion for both if you don't like it?? play less sweaty and maybe your SBMM will get lower.
Reason why I don't want SBMM:
As a bias killer main: In tired of sweating and having to deal with and running the same perks over and over again. I want to have fun and not be stressed out and run different builds instead of the meta.
As a solo survivor, I wanna try and use use different perks instead of being glued to a gen.
Overall
The game is too unbalanced for SBMM
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@thefallenloser said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2467608#Comment_2467608
There is no effort in the other ways to track with her, it's literally just listening for sounds.
I only ever play Spirit for the dailies and even then I only use some stupid build and run Predator because it's just boring otherwise, too easy. Speed add-ons on top of that make it so that you can follow the scratch marks even better.
But I dunno maybe try putting more effort into tracking with Predator on Spirit?
Too easy??! I don't mean to insult you, but you sound like a entitled survivor that refuses to get good with other aspects of her kit.
Back when Spirit could actually pass a audio gram, could you hear survivor's footsteps? Could you track a survivor's regular breathing without stridor? Could you even play Spirit with Mother-Daughter Ring and still predict survivor's without scratch marks or a sound queue? Better yet could you identify a survivor with Spine Chill and use that perk against them?
I'm a dedicated Spirit main sweet heart. You can't tell me get good by reading scratch marks when they aren't reliable due to the fact it takes longer for them to show up while phasing
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@thefallenloser said:
Spirit mains are the most dramatic player subdivision in the game, I swear lol.
"RIP Spirit," like she isn't still A-tier even without sound.
Just throw on Predator instead of Stridor (wow what a thought!) and stand still some more, and wait until the devs fix the bug.
Also I've hardly seen any Spirit sound complaints? Besides this one I've only seen one other, so I doubt the devs even noticed.
Yeah your painting a pretty picture that you don't play Spirit or haven't put in the effort to learn other ways of tracking with her.
Scratch Marks aren't dependable, even with Predator they still aren't dependable. Scratch marks really mean "A survivor was/is hear" and they aren't good for tracking.
While you can do the other things you mentioned, the moment she presses M2, your back to being Hellen Keller with a sword.
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.....
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Third Seal isn't bad. Imo the perk just doesn't have anything to complement or synergies with it, until Hex: Play Thing comes along.
But Hex perks are a problem within themselves not because of the perk, but the totem
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@Anara said:
Many people complain about gen speed since the rework, and ask for balance.
Imagine the game remain the same but there is 8 generators on the map instead of 7 and we have to do 6 generators to activate the exit gates.
Would it balance the game or make it worst ?
Gen speeds aren't the problem. The problem comes from the fact that survior's don't have enough objectives prior to gens
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I don't necessarily consider looping skillful because it's essentially feeding off direct information . But I do consider stringing loops together skillful.