MDRSan
MDRSan
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@CatFish said:
Yes, let's forget about otr, vigil and tons of other perks that are stronger than several killer perks and require 0 investment from survivors
But of course tribalism is your everything
Yes, clearly I don't play both sides enough to have an opinion that isn't tainted by tribalism. 🙄
My point is that most (not all, most) killer perks that give value I find worthwhile tend to either have no requirements to activate or require me to take an action I would have done anyway like kick a gen, hook a survivor, down a survivor, hook a survivor on a glowy scourge hook.
Most survivor perks (not all, most) that give value I would find worthwhile if not for the ridiculous setup required to actually use them require things like rummaging through chests, cleansing totems, being within x meters of a carried survivor, healing a survivor and staying within x meters of them on solo queue with no comms - things that aren't going to just happen naturally and consistently through the course of normal matches.
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I have yet to have Heal/Expose actually benefit me.
The closest it’s come is popping me up right on top of a killer about to pick me up. With no warning I didn’t have any time to react and was just downed again. I’ve had it screw me over in chase a few times, as well as become exposed on hook which I find a bit funny. The rest of the time it’s just inconvenient and paranoia inducing because I’m already healthy and would like to not go down in one hit.
Party pallets are mostly useful for the blood point bonus when you create them. I’ve seen stuns work a couple of times but otherwise it seems most killers know to not faceplant into them. It would be one thing if they were actual pallets but it seems unbalanced but fun mechanics are only for killers on limited time anniversary events.
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The counter to healing is to do damage.
Franklin's demise will still make a survivor drop the item, making it unavailable to them unless they waste time running back to where they maybe remember dropping it all for the low cost of a single M1 weapon swing. It costs the killer nothing since I'm pretty sure they were planning to hit the survivor anyway and with the update will still, at worst, give them time off gen for a survivor.
If every survivor brings a maxed out med-kit and runs only the best meta healing perks available it still isn't impossible to win as a killer. Comparatively more difficult to a group that brings nothing? Sure - otherwise, why have items. Unfairly more difficult? No.
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Some influencers have posted videos claiming the killer role is getting harder. That’s pretty much it - content creator opinion parroted as fact.
Personally I haven’t noticed much if any difference. It only ever seems harder when it’s a coordinated group, and even then it’s usually just a matter of switching tactics.
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It's funny, I've hopped over to killer a few times when I see the survivor bloodpoint bonus has gone down to 1.25/1.5 or is gone all together and after sitting and waiting in queue for a while I get impatient and hop back over to survivor to find it's gone back up to 2.5. It's like it knows I'm calling its bluff.
It would be nice to be able to play killer some since I like playing both and am a bit sick of survivor solo queue in this event but it looks like I'm going to be stuck on survivor for the duration as I have no intention of waiting 10-15 minutes for a single match.
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@CrossTheSholf said:
His killrate shouldnt include the go nexts from when he came out
Why, were those survivors not sacrificed? Were they retroactively awarded wins for those matches? Do you suspect they would have escaped?
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963581#Comment_3963581
You could have something in place where it only triggers if each hook state was reached because of a separate hooking - that way no one could argue it’s efficient to just leave someone on hook to die.That would help on situation 2 if they were to go to that extreme.
But it leaves the issue that the survivors have no reason to protect that survivor once unhooked and the killer has every reason to leave them slugged.
It also doesn't deal with scenario 1 about how Killer progress doesn't feel like anything. I hate the term lose/lose, but I think it would apply here. Spread pressure, getting multiple survivors on death hook, and the survivors will get a ton of gen progress . Eliminate a survivor, and the survivors will get a ton of gen progress by the time needed to do them dropping significantly.
It just looks like we'd either need to reimagine the game as actually a 1v1v1v1v1, or the killer would need massive buffs. Because if the catch up mechanic is so extreme that 2 survivors could come back from there being 3 gens left to go we have a radically different game.
Personally, I think the mercy option is the best of the ideas proposed. If it gets down to 2 survivors and there is less than 350 charges on all the gens, the killer just wins. It wouldn't be a satisfying conclusion, but as a bonus it would prevent survivors who try to hide from the start and are just playing for hatch.
IMO, the mercy option would just encourage a further race to the bottom where looser and looser criteria define a killer win.
Reducing the total required charges per gen doesn’t have to outweigh the benefits to having a whole other survivor. Unless you’re knocking the charges down by 1/4 for each death then it’s not even equal in gen time, much less the benefit of having a whole other target for the killer to go after versus their time being spread across only 2 or 3 survivors. It would have to practically pop a gen by itself to be worth it to just let someone die.
A killer doesn’t need to tunnel someone out in order to feel like they made progress - people win matches all the time without tunneling. Remember the goal with an anti-tunneling solution is to discourage tunneling. Of course it’s going to make tunneling a less effective strategy, if not straight up discouraged - that’s the whole point.
I can only speak from my perspective but since when I play survivor I only play in solo queue - IMO, the game is a 1v1v1v1v1 whether it’s intended that way or not. There’s no survivor team points or team wins. If I get tunneled out first thing in a match, what possible fun did I have? What did I even accomplish to justify queuing in the first place? There is no group success.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963174#Comment_3963174
The problem with that, the survivors now have much less incentive to save someone on death hook. Gens before friends actually becomes a powerful strategy. This leads to two problems
1: A sense for the killer that their progress means nothing. Don't eliminate a survivor, you have to face 4 of them, eliminate a survivor and the remaining ones do gens faster.
2: Now instead of feeling pointless being alive, it now feels pointless when you are on hook and know people are not coming for you. Especially given the current anti-go next, you still have survivors being stuck, just in a different position.
That might be a useful anti-tunneling mechanic though. It would encourage spreading the hook states around since if the killer tries to tunnel someone out, the survivors might let them and get a buff because of it. You could have something in place where it only triggers if each hook state was reached because of a separate hooking - that way no one could argue it’s efficient to just leave someone on hook to die.
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The thing that I feel is annoying in Ghoul matches is that by the time you finish the thought ‘I can start this Gen, the killer isn’t on top of me’ he will have traversed the map and you are now in chase. That and him being able to get that free wound literally through walls is kind of ridiculous. It’s frustrating because he feels fun to play and I’d like to play him more but I also don’t want to make the other side miserable. I already stand around sometimes on other killers to gift a little breathing room to the other side, I can’t imagine how much I’d have to do that on him.
They need to stop introducing high mobility killers while shrinking map sizes.
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@BoonRainDice said:
Why Clown, Knight has to be nerfed in some way when they are allready bit struggling compare to any A+ tier killer? Why Trapper sits still in bottom toilet tier for almost a decade?
Why Pyramid Head just gets direct buffs (very small nerfs) when he is allready great killer? Why Blight and Nurse, Kaneki just sits S tier without being nerfed?
I don't understand balance of killers in this game.
Speaking in general terms, buff + nerf combo changes are sometimes necessary because adjusting one aspect of a killer has unintended consequences to other mechanics. You have to look at buffs and nerfs as they relate to a killer’s entire kit.
Another thing to keep in mind is that tier lists aren’t data - they’re opinions. For example, in my experience I can get 3-4Ks with Singularity, Dredge, and Unknown with much less finicky controls and effort than Nurse or Blight. If I were to make a personal tier list, Nurse and Blight would not be S tier just because they might have similar results as other strong killers but they’re more of a pain to play so why would I rank them higher?
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Why would you use a map offering versus any other offering if it only gives you a 20% chance of getting a particular map?
Like if you don't need any extra blood points, don't care if you can unhook yourself, are happy with fog levels as they currently are, don't care if I lose my item, think chest count is just right where it is, and aren't really craving RPD, but could do RPD I guess - maybe then?
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Killers got used to healing being so slow that survivors just didn’t bother with it. Now healing is fast enough with certain perk and item combinations to be worth bothering to do. The presence of a second health state they have to deal with past the first hook is confusing and angering to killer mains.
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I personally have never once retrieved a dropped item and didn't realize until this PTB that dropped items even lose charges because of Franklin's. It's just never been worth it to me.
Of course I don't run anything fancy either. I don't play the game like a job enough to have some massive surplus of fancy add-ons. I doubt many do.
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I'd be curious to see if they have internal data showing whether enough players even bother going back for their items to matter one way or the other.
Killer players are acting like this destroys the perk or something but in my personal experience few, if any go back for dropped items anyway. I doubt that's going to change all that much with this perk's update.
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Killers complaining about gen rushing: Survivors spend too much time focusing gens - we need to stop the gen rushing. Maybe survivors could go do something else besides gens!
Killers complaining about the Franklin's change: I didn't mean something that could benefit them! Like something other than healing or item retrieval! Gosh!
Seriously, it's not like medkits are Thor hammering themselves back to survivor's hands.
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@UsherGod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959696#Comment_3959696
1 survivor wasting time is NOT the same as 2 survivors wasting time. In 100% of all scenarios, survivors saving their med kits is always worth it since instaheals can break through slowdown and is passive
So you want to balance around everyone having iridescent addons all the time?
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@UsherGod said:
Without the fear of an item fully depleting, they can just go back for it at their leisure. The time survivors save by healing themselves multiple times heavily outweighs time spent running to their kit
I remember a time where healing was slow enough that many survivors just didn't bother healing. Would you like to go back to the days where literally no time was spent on healing so survivors can focus on gens?
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
None of these perks are going to see any use. Just trying to read and understand them was a chore.
Why are modern DbD perks always like “Rummage through two chests then bless a totem and then when the killer is within 24 metres scream and reveal your aura and your teammates nearby have their scratch marks hidden.”
Like obviously I’m being hyperbolic but it’s all so convoluted and hard to use for such a mediocre benefit.
Honestly, it's mainly survivor perks. Killer perks are usually - hit a survivor, kick a gen, hook a survivor on a special glowy hook. Like, yeah - I was kind of planning on that anyway.
Survivor perks involve some convoluted mini rift-quest activity to activate.
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@Rookie1978 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959402#Comment_3959402
Thank you for your response. I'm going to try and break down my own response into sections since it seems like we're both bringing up a few different talking points and it'll help keep things understandable and concise.
>I’d love to see where I said there’s SOMETHING WRONG with a killer being slightly faster than survivors at ‘base speeds’. What I said was that they ARE faster. That is all, end of statement.I'm willing to concede this if you're willing to acknowledge that bringing it up in the first place meant something. We're having an active discussion; that's not something you mention unless you wanted it to mean something. We aren't saying things just to say them. This is an ongoing debate. You specifically say,
"There are killers that can zoom around maps with dashes, tentacle leaps, or literal teleports in addition to just plain being faster than a survivor at base speeds. Lithe never hurt anybody."
To me, when I hear you say "in addition to just plain being faster than a survivor at base speeds" that sounds to me like you're noting it as some kind of problem. But if you aren't, and you don't think anything is wrong with that, then that's fine; but I don't think killers that have some sort of teleport or mobility power should be not as quick as killers are supposed to be with their base movement speed.
Unless you're the Nurse, if anything Nurse should move even slower.
>There are not vaultable surfaces falling from the sky on every map. A survivor is not so close to a vaultable surface that you could not close the gap before they get to one in every chase.Yes, vaults from a height are more powerful than ones on the ground, but grounded vaults are still very powerful. Every map has a killer shack, for instance; but on top of that, I would wager most of the vaults across every map in the game are survivor sided regardless, because that's the point of vaults. Unless it's one of those really weird small ones, like on the edges of Dead Dog Saloon that just super suck. But still.
I'm not having any of this conversation with the idea of height vaults in mind, that to me is just a different category. Everything that i'm talking about to me in my mind is within the context of a 'normal' grounded vault, one that a killer would have to either take a walk around, or take the slow vault to get past it.
Additionally, I don't really know what you mean by "not so close to a vaultable surface that you could not close the gap before they get to one in every chase." As a survivor, you typically aren't trying to take a vault knowing the killer is going to get a hit; you should vault when you know the killer is too far away to swing at you mid-vault, and you take that vault so you can start looping the killer. Some gyms you can play mindgames, some gyms are better than others and are next to impossible for the killer unless you're playing a killer that specifically has anti-loop built into their kit.
So generally i'm just not really sure what your saying. The normal chase flowchat for survivors is make distance, find a gym to play around, loop the killer as much as possible by abusing pallets and vaults, and move to the next gym if you've exhausted your resources (like you've thrown the pallet already or you've used the same vault so many times it's blocked.)
The chase typically goes until the killer gets you, gives up, or loses track of you. I don't like Lithe because it turns the normal chase structure into the survivor just getting away for free and typically ending the chase then and there. It rewards a survivor for doing something that's already advantageous to them in a chase, and typically stops the interaction completely instead of following the 'normal' chase flowchart that dictates a majority of the interactivity the sides have with eachother.
>If a survivor with lithe does fast vault a vaultable surface while in chase with you they are not so far away that you can now NOT catch them.My response to this is twofold.
Firstly, yes, there are some very strong or stragetic vault points that become basically unwinnable by abusing Lithe's speedboost; like the vault from height spots we already talked about. A killer can theoretically hit one of these and still chase the survior; i've caught up with plenty of survivors from that one vault drop in The Game, for instance. Not impossible. But with Lithe, spots like that become insanely valuable for survivors.
Secondly, yes, even if you can theoretically keep chasing the survivor, just like Sprint Burst, the insane free amount of distance they get on you typically just isn't worth it to chase because it's such a massive timesink. At some point it becomes more strategically viable to drop chase, either to go after another survivor that isn't as good in chase or doesn't have those perks, or to go pressure gens elsewhere and try to stagnate the game.
I typically play this way often, ignoring the survivors that I know have really tough perks or are really good in chase/want to be chased or are constantly trying to make me chase them. It makes much more sense for me to go after their teammates. If I know you have Sprint Burst and your going to burst away from me at 99 mph then i'm not really keen on investing all that time it takes just to catch up with you and actually start the ######### chase properly. That's what I mean by free arbitrary distance.
Lithe is the same way. If you speed off after doing a vault, it's doubling down on something that's already bad for me, and makes it less worth it to keep the chase going because we're adding a lot of time on an already rapidly draining clock for next to no effort by the survivor.
So, ultimately, there are some situations where Lithe can genuinely just end a chase verbatim; and a lot of times, the time it takes to catch up to these survivors really just isn't worth it, and it feels worse that it's 'unearned' time the survivors get. But if the entire team are running these perks (i'm getting 2-3 sprint bursts/lithes a game) then the killer's time is constantly getting stretched out with less and less actual chase structure or interactivity with the survivors at all, and then it just gets so insanely obnoxious to play against.
See, you even seem to agree with me with your next statement here;
>I may CHOOSE to break chase when I feel applying pressure elsewhere would be a better choice time-wise, I don’t HAVE TO.That's kind of the crux of the conversation. You either break chase or dedicate even more time to chasing someone who got a large amount of free distance on you for very little effort.
Now, if the entire enemy team is doing that, then there's no point in breaking chase since every survivor is going to do the same ######### thing to you, and then every chase you have in that match is arbitrarily extended. It just gets ridiculous; and let's face it, with these pickrates, that is going to happen way more often than you only encountering a single survivor running one of these perks.
Let's face it- they have high pickrates for a reason. If they were reasonably balanced, they wouldn't be present in every single ######### game. (I use swears for emphasis; not to imply hostility.)
>You make an assumption on why they’re the 2nd and 4th most ran perks in the gameLet's pump the brakes here a little bit. Metas are typically defined by perks that are overtly effective. Balance changes happen around the meta because the meta highlights things that are too powerful if not straight up broken. The only thing that doesn't fit here is Windows because Windows is the default suggestion noob perk and a lot of people are running it that really don't need to be.
It's worth saying that in some way, every other most picked perk (on BOTH sides) are probably just really good perks. I'm not 'making an assumption' by saying these perks are picked extremely often because they're very good, i'm just running off the basic definition and understanding of what a meta in a videogame is.
Like, every single meta in DBD's history has been centered around perks or perk combos that are just very good. That's why people use them. That's why they become meta.
Even if you initially disagree with some of my points and don't think these perks are inherently unhealthy for the game it stands to reason that you could at least recognize that they're simply good perks you will basically always get value from.
>since killers have pretty good kill stats in the most recently reported numbers, how exactly do you think wrecking survivors primary chase perks is going to affect that?I don't think this is really doing what you want this to do for your argument. Killers are pretty much always going to have good or acceptable kill rates because the game is insanely non-noob-friendly with barely functioning MMR and despite all these twitch streamers and tiktok-clip-farming bully squads a large majority of the survivor player population just suck at the game.
Like, that's not a bad thing to say, it's okay to recognize that, and i'm fairly certain that's already an understood metric whe n it comes to trying to analyze DBD numbers. I think you're just failing to recognize that you need to see the context behind statistics to make the statistics mean anything.
Here's one for you- The Nurse has the 5th lowest killrate in the game. Is she still the best killer? In this instance; it's the killer players that suck. In terms of killer kill-rates, it's a majority of the survivors that suck.
If you actually need Sprint Burst and Lithe to stand a chance in a chase, look at what that actually means- you have no idea how a chase works, or what you're supposed to do in one.
If you are literally just running away, you have not yet reached a point of familiarity with playing Survivor where you can effectively loop the killer in a chase. Which is fine- I can't loop for ######### either, i'm awful at Survivor. But using these perks to offset your skill imbalance doesn't retroactively justify the perks existence. To be as direct as possible; I don't give a ######### what removing these perks do to any single statistic. Survivors should learn how to function in a chase instead of relying on blatantly unhealthy non-interactivity focused perks to get ahead.
Also, just as a final addendum,
>and now their perk is unusable for 40 seconds.Does not matter. The exhaustion perk working on an exhaustion cooldown does not matter when you are getting the value of that perk up-front. You get the value and then the perk goes on cooldown. I'm not writing all this out like i'm thinking survivors are getting back to back lithe's off in a single chase. In fact, many perks on both sides have cooldowns. Mentioning that the perks are exhaustion perks does not mean anything to me in this conversation.
TL:DR no you don't get a TLDR actually read my post if you want to engage in the conversation.
I'm willing to concede this if you're willing to acknowledge that bringing it up in the first place meant something. We're having an active discussion; that's not something you mention unless you wanted it to mean something.
Yes, the meaning I intended being that the killer has the inherent speed advantage for the majority of the match. Situationally removing that advantage for 3 seconds every 40 seconds at absolute maximum, assuming completely ideal conditions for a given survivor does not negate that advantage in my opinion.
Assuming a 10 minute match and assuming a survivor is chased into a vault precisely when their cooldown is up every single time their cooldown is up, at max there will be 13 3 second windows of 50% haste for a given survivor. 6.5% of the match all together will be spent zipping around for that survivor, split between 13 instances. This is assuming everything goes as perfectly for the survivor as it could possibly go - something very improbable.
To me, when I hear you say "in addition to just plain being faster than a survivor at base speeds" that sounds to me like you're noting it as some kind of problem. But if you aren't, and you don't think anything is wrong with that, then that's fine; but I don't think killers that have some sort of teleport or mobility power should be not as quick as killers are supposed to be with their base movement speed.
My point is if there are going to be killers in the game that can close long distances extremely quickly, there needs to be perks that can give survivors a chance against those high mobility killers. I'm not commenting on their speed one way or the other - I'm just saying that IF they're going to be able to speed around the map then a survivor that isn't already at a jungle gym or building is going to need a way to get there without it just being a free down every time a survivor needs to wander over to a gen that isn't in a loopable structure.
Now, if the entire enemy team is doing that, then there's no point in breaking chase since every survivor is going to do the same ######### thing to you, and then every chase you have in that match is arbitrarily extended. It just gets ridiculous; and let's face it, with these pickrates, that is going to happen way more often than you only encountering a single survivor running one of these perks.
If the entire enemy team is running around, then they aren't doing gens. Heck, sprint burst is exploitable as a killer there - they scatter from a gen fast but have to take a long walk back and aren't going to be very fast anymore if you come right back.
Even if you initially disagree with some of my points and don't think these perks are inherently unhealthy for the game it stands to reason that you could at least recognize that they're simply good perks you will basically always get value from.
I agree Lithe is good - it's why I run it and not something else. (That and most other perks are too situational to be worth anything) I don't agree it's overpowered nor do I agree that it's unhealthy for the game. One point I would like to make here is that just because a perk is frequently chosen, doesn't inherently make it overpowered or a problem. Correlation is not causation.
If you actually need Sprint Burst and Lithe to stand a chance in a chase, look at what that actually means- you have no idea how a chase works, or what you're supposed to do in one.Conversely, if you actually need a survivor to not run any exhaustion perks to stand a chance in a chase, look at what that actually means.
To be as direct as possible; I don't give a ######### what removing these perks do to any single statistic.
How about your queue time? Do you care what removing those perks do to that? Few enough people want to play survivor as it is that there's constant blood point bribes in place, you want to make it more frustrating?
But using these perks to offset your skill imbalance doesn't retroactively justify the perks existence.
Love that phrasing. I could counter with - demanding those perks be removed to offset a killer's skill imbalance doesn't make the argument correct or good for game balance or health.
Mentioning that the perks are exhaustion perks does not mean anything to me in this conversation.
Then you are intentionally ignoring or disregarding the limitations that are present on the perks you are complaining about. Having a cooldown mechanic is very much a part of how balanced something is.
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@Rookie1978 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959338#Comment_3959338
Your entire post is rendered moot by your opinion that there's somehow something wrong with a killer being slightly faster than survivors at 'base speeds'. You are by design not 'supposed' to indefinitely loop a killer with unplayable, uncounterable gameplay; which is why the killer gets Bloodlust, and why vaults get blocked after 3 jumps.
Finesse is the lesser devil out of the 3 but my criticisms stand; and yes, with such a large amount of the survivor playerbase abusing lithe (2nd most picked perk in the game) i'm sure BHVR is inevitably going to pry it out of your hands eventually.
I don't think that Lithe should have some kind of minute requirement or further behavior tacked onto it, I simply don't think there should be a survivor perk that turns an already favorable situation into one that's just a complete stopsign for the killer.
No lithe, survivor vaults, makes distance, killer has to go around or take slower vault, survivor gets that chance to either keep running the loop, or make it to the next spot.
With lithe, survivor vaults, gets distance, gets more free distance, killer can't catch up.
What's wrong with lithe isn't just that it requires no thinking or conditions, it's also that it's attached to a situation that should already be very favorable for a competent survivor, and ruins interactivity because at that point the chase should more or less just be over.
The time sink that goes into chasing someone running sprint burst or lithe typically just isn't worth it, especially on the more obnoxious vault locations that are already insanely good for the survivor. Now, when these picks are picked so often that you're seeing multiple of them in a single game, every single chase between the survivor and killer gets an arbitrary amount of time added on because of the crazy free distance these perks give you.
It's just lazy, both in perk design, and use by survivor.
And I noted it in my initial post but perhaps it was too long to parse that specific element of conversation, but i'm fine with perks that just make you better at stuff. I don't care about Deja Vu letting you slam gens and rush down a killer having the exit gates open before they've even used their power.
But when it comes to anything survivor sided that impacts a chase, I think you have to be very careful when balancing perks that impact it- and at very least, focus on perks that are either conditional and lessen an otherwise unsafe move (like Balanced Landing making the fall favorable for the survivor), or require some level of tactics or skill input to use effectively (like Dead Hard.) Those are my 2 examples for perks that impact the survivor side of chase that I think are more or less fine, but there are more; if any other perks were so free and useful as Sprint Burst and Lithe, then they respectively wouldn't be the 2nd and 4th most ran perks in the game.
Why, I’d love to see where I said there’s SOMETHING WRONG with a killer being slightly faster than survivors at ‘base speeds’. What I said was that they ARE faster. That is all, end of statement. Perhaps you should re-read.
There are not vaultable surfaces falling from the sky on every map. A survivor is not so close to a vaultable surface that you could not close the gap before they get to one in every chase. If a survivor with lithe does fast vault a vaultable surface while in chase with you they are not so far away that you can now NOT catch them. I play killer too when queue times aren’t miserable and can say that I may CHOOSE to break chase when I feel applying pressure elsewhere would be a better choice time-wise, I don’t HAVE TO.
If 3 seconds of haste means you are unable to catch a survivor, how did you get to them across the map in the first place? That’s way farther than those 3 seconds got that lithe using survivor, and now their perk is unusable for 40 seconds.
You make an assumption on why they’re the 2nd and 4th most ran perks in the game when you.
So long as you’re looking at statistics, tell me - since killers have pretty good kill stats in the most recently reported numbers, how exactly do you think wrecking survivors primary chase perks is going to affect that?
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I only ever used either invocation when I was trying for adept on both Sable and Taurie and convinced myself it didn’t really count if I wasn’t using the neat new mechanics. Beyond those string of failures and 2 successes I have not touched invocations again - they’d have to be OP to be worth it to me way down in solo queue.
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Not every survivor perk should require a ridiculous amount of set up for one niche use. Survivors already have perks that require some combination of chest opening, totem cleansing, and it being a day with an even number of vowels in order to get any value out of them. These are likely picked because they’re useful and don’t require a stupid amount of conditionally available setup, not because they’re OP.
I never run sprint burst - it’s too uncontrollable for my tastes. You either have to walk everywhere until you need it or just let it fire off whenever it’s up and potentially get less value from it, or have it missing when you actually could use it.
I almost always run lithe, and if you want it you can pry it from my cold, dead hands. It might help a survivor chain loops, escape dead zones, or just put a little distance but they aren’t uncatchable.
If someone’s running lithe and finesse then they’ve burnt 2 perk slots on 1 effect so yeah, it should be a good one. I don’t consistently run finesse but do occasionally mainly because I like the hop animation and feeling a smidge more zippy (usually I prefer kindred in that slot I’m only ever on solo queue). Again, this has not made me uncatchable by any means.
There are killers that can zoom around maps with dashes, tentacle leaps, or literal teleports in addition to just plain being faster than a survivor at base speeds. Lithe never hurt anybody.
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They’re not going to be happy until all killers are zooming around postage stamp sized maps like a Wesker hopped up on too much coffee.
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@TheGoone said:
Survivors will always choose medkits and toolboxes over this anyway which is why we need to bring those in line with the rest of the items
Why should medkits and toolboxes be made to be as useless as the other items? When I play survivor I don’t bring medkits because they’re super powerful. I bring them because I have them laying around, they do have some utility, and everything else is completely useless to me. Nerfing medkits or toolboxes won’t have me bring other items - it’ll have me bringing nothing because why would I bother?
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@IrisLP said:
I'm SURE they're going to nerf it because a lot of killers are going to cry about it (and Franklin's Demise will probably become a constant perk because of this); so no, I prefer to keep carrying my medkit and leave it on the edge of the map to use later xD
They should have Franklin’s Demise auto trigger the smoke bomb once it hits the ground as a minor risk to running it.
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Myself, I’m sick or tiny maps that have me literally bumping into every survivor AND the killer every time I try and walk anywhere so larger maps are welcome.
If certain killers have troubles on certain map sizes then maybe they should dynamically adjust size based on a killer’s mobility when the match is generated.
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I’ve seen wildly inconsistent fill rates in my survivor matches. Most of the time it seems useless as it doesn’t seem to fill up at all with a killer in line of sight and only a second or 2 walk time away. Other times I have no idea where the killer is and it’s filling up like they’re right in my face.
Personally, I’ve never had it actually fill up for me all the way yet in a match
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https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3957577#Comment_3957577
I’d call that down rushing if I were to frame it like some killer oriented posters frame survivors trying to get gens done before being killed.
Edit: /s for clarity
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@JawsIsTheNextKiller said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955274#Comment_3955274
Yes I thought the same. The DC before the mori just doesn't sit right with me if they aren't being slugged. I'm pretty sure this is not what the system was designed for.
Why not though? If the match is over for a player why not let them move on if they so choose?
Is the win not complete without rubbing it in?
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3956719#Comment_3956719
You're using the wrong comparison. Securing a win isn't "running up the score." It's not "running up the score" to score 35 points in the first quarter of a football game. The only time in sports when it's considered "unsportsmanlike" to keep trying your best is when the result of the game is beyond question. For instance, if you're up by 40 points in the 4th Quarter.
However, tunneling a survivor isn't "running up the score." It's securing the win. It's scoring the original 40 points, not tacking on extra ones.
Putting an entire group of survivors on death hook, slugging 3 of the 4 survivors, camping hooks, or tunneling while 4-5 gens remain is not securing the win, it's overkill. If someone demonstrates that much of a gap between their performance and a given group of survivors then explain to me exactly how are they at risk of the match miraculously swinging in favor of the survivors just because they back off a bit and let the survivors get a little gameplay in beyond being abruptly mowed down. A killer doesn't get more points for shorter matches.
Whenever I play killer, it's usually plainly obvious how my gameplay is going to stack up against a given team of survivors early enough in the match for me to have plenty of time to adjust the tactics I use and how optimally I play. The point is killers don't have to play as hard as they can in every match to 'secure the win'.
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3956659#Comment_3956659
Killers are tryhards ( play to win )
Survivors are additionally scrubs ( play by arbitarily chosen handicaps and demand the opponent to also do so, dont tunnel, no nurse etc). " No throws" in fighting games is a common example.
In dbd its simply worse cuz the asym nature means that survs can be hypocrites ( see tunnel vs genrush, both is focusing a target down asap)
That’s a bit disingenuous - a gen doesn’t get frustrated it wasn’t able to do anything all match.
They’re both objectives yes, but tunneling prevents a player from accomplishing ANYTHING other than being run down and hooked, gen rushing doesn’t mean the killer can’t do anything.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3956400#Comment_3956400
Oh, wow. You took the completely wrong lesson from those toddler years and little league games.
Sportsmanship isn't "playing in a manner that makes sure that everyone has a good time." Sportsmanship is "an understanding of and commitment to fair play, ethical behavior and integrity, and general goodwill toward an opponent." It means not cheating, not breaking the rules, and not being a jerk about the end result. I can have goodwill towards an opponent while actively trying to crush them in-game. Sportsmanship is about fair play, respect and grace in both victory and defeat. The competition, in and of itself, is supposed to be the "good time." If you can't have fun while competing, maybe competitive multiplayer games aren't for you.
The point of sayings like, "Winning isn't everything," is to teach kids that it's better to play fair and lose than to cheat and win.
What's ironic is that I see far more survivors utilizing poor sportsmanship than killers. It's quite common for survivors to gloat when they win and spout the most vitriolic stuff in the end game chat when they lose. Especially if they lose because the killer didn't follow some imaginary rule that they made up in their head.
It’s considered poor sportsmanship to run up the score against an opponent in most sports when you’re already clearly the winner. Rushing towards a 4K at 4-5 gens is the same thing and something I see a lot of in solo queue matches.
When I play survivor, I care far more about being able to accomplish anything in the match - popping a gen, cleansing a totem, successfully having a chase last longer than a few moments, or being able to engage with event items than I do ‘winning’ when it comes to whether I find the match frustrating or not.
Killers in aggregate, not knowing when to stop punching down likely contributes to why there’s almost always a blood point bribe for people to play survivor and comparatively longer queues for killers. Whenever I see the 2.5x value I know it’s a choice between either a long wait to play killer or an extra miserable survivor match
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I’m not sure I understand the situation you’re describing. As a killer, there’s no incentive to play any differently than usual in this event - killer blood points are tied to the things killers do anyway.
As a survivor, if I’m tunneled then I’m the affected party - why, after multiple solo queue stomps would I care how many blood points my next killer gets?
Personally I have been bringing pies because why not but I’d be lying if I said the temptation to switch to Salty Lips instead hadn’t crossed my mind after a couple streaks of being steamrolled. Besides, survivor has had a near constant 1.5x - 2.5x blood point bribe in place so that stacks nicely in all but the worst matches.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
I go into matches looking to kill everybody violently, but I am very easy to persuade to let go. playing as Feng helps. I typically only refuse to let you go if I just don't like you.
the other day I had a toxic Kate BM me for no reason at every pallet on Badham, so naturally when she went down as the last gen popped, I basement hooked her and slapped her to let her know I don't appreciate that; you reap what you sow.
there was a Sable that just hung around. she couldn't do anything, so she should have just left. but she just wanted to be nice by hanging around for no reason. I can respect that, and the toxic one died so I'm happy to let her go.
I'm a 100% BP main so I should be able to relate to others struggles
Fengs are so squeaky and adorable, especially bunny hood Fengs.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3956357#Comment_3956357
fnaf is more important than some random event so I disagree
This game isn’t FNaF, it’s DBD. FNaF fans might be confused on this point.
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@TieBreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954978#Comment_3954978
Yeah, it's not a perfect system. The devs could add a small delay to the adandon feature. That way the last survivor can't abandon immediately.
The purpose of the abandon option is to allow a player to move on when there is no possibility of any other outcome but a loss. Delaying that until the killer gets around to actually hooking or mori’ing a player would defeat the whole point.
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You got the win - you don’t need to pip too for shooting fish in a barrel. It’s one match - it’s not like you can de-pip any more.
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My knee jerk, been playing solo queue for a few days and am feeling snippy due to the near constant losses, steamrolls, and killer post game sore winner BMing thoughts:
Survivor suffering is the point. Survivors aren’t meant to enjoy a match, much less win. Sure, it happens occasionally but really the role of a survivor is to squirm on the end of a killer’s weapon. This is so players playing killers can enjoy the game - it’s not fun for them if you don’t have to sit and deal with being steamrolled. Your frustration IS what makes the game enjoyable for them.
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Survivor: Bunny ear jiggle physics!
Killer: Torn between not being programmed to harm the crew OR Maurice was hiding in me the whole time!
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954511#Comment_3954511
Some maps are still huge for killers with no mobility and set up playstyle (trapper,had,skullmerchant), on the other hand then you have some killers like billy,blight,ghoul,dracula who doesnt give a duck about any map size.
Actually, an idea just clicked for me - I wonder if dynamic map sizes and configurations would help normalize killer performance across high and low mobility killers (once dialed in appropriately).
That and making sure exit gates don’t spawn literally next to each other. I had a Farm match that did that yesterday as Billy. I could literally just walk between the 2 - I didn’t even need my chainsaw sprint.
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In regards to the OP’s question:
When I have a group of survivors who seem like they’re blowing through gens fast and I’m not securing many hooks due to what seems to be coordinated saves, I’ll just switch to slugging until I have enough of them down that they don’t have a choice but to stop gens. If I have a few of them down, then I’ll hook - I’m not looking to make the match miserable for anyone, just really disincentivize staying on that gen. I guess they COULD stay on gens, but that’s just handing me a 3K.
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@Rapid99 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955046#Comment_3955046
Please. Go ahead and tell me what counters survivors coming off the hook immediately with 70% progress, outside of proxy camping the hook so they can't heal at all.
Tell me you go into matches planning to tunnel without saying you go into matches planning to tunnel.
The counter is to hit them twice again or go hit someone else. I remember a time when healing was so sluggish and miserable survivors didn’t bother doing it. Now with smaller maps and a good number of killers that can be on any gen they want in moments things have to move faster to not make solo queue matches overly oppressive to survivor games.
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@Nomade said:
I am, at this point, allmost totally convinced that anyone who complains about being slugged for the 4k is not an experienced player thinking rationally. Any expierienced player knows that overwhelmingly the biggest reason killers slug for the 4k is hatch. Its. Not. Personal. Its the way the game was designed.
The hatch doesn’t count against the killer. Completely negating a part of a match’s mechanics because someone feels entitled to a guaranteed 4K is just being greedy. How engaging do you think survivor gameplay is there? Why would someone queue to slither around the ground doing nothing?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3953938#Comment_3953938
The AFK crows were nerfed so badly, that a survivor can hide for over 20 minutes, by opening 1 chest. Yes, I think the phase 2 anti-camping mechanic should be equally useless, for the sake of equality.
Expecting killers to move very far away from a hooked survivor, to find someone else to chase, when everyone else is hiding far away from generators, is the skewed take. Why should a killer leave a hooked survivor, to patrol the generators, if none of the other survivors are repairing generators?
If nobody is doing generators then nobody’s escaping. If your argument is that winning that way is too slow or boring, well - so is getting camped or tunneled.
There has to be some way for both sides of a match to be able to accomplish SOMETHING that makes them feel like they had a chance to do anything without unbalancing things.
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@Mringasa said:
The sweat is palpable from the Killers during this Anniversary. Went from about 7/8 out of 10 to a 10/10 in almost every match for me. Only way to get BP now is to crank gens and hope you can get a good chase or two, maybe an unhook before you open the gates or get dead.
I always figured it's better to play a little lighter during the Anniversary. BP by the bucketful to be had with all these pies. Everyone walking out with 30k+ base game points is a helluva lot better than 5 minutes games, and 15-20k because of the dripping foreheads.
On the plus side, given how miserable most solo queue survivor matches have been no one wants to play survivor so there’s always a 1.5x - 2.5x blood point bonus for survivors. It would absolutely not be worth the frustration otherwise.
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From the perspective of someone who only plays survivor in solo queue and doesn’t have a streamers full time job worth of high tier med-kits and med-kit add-ons to waste in every match, healing feels fine. It’s fast enough to feel worth bothering to do vs. just hopping back on a gen, wounded. I only run botany knowledge with desperate measures personally.
In my killer matches I haven’t personally noticed survivors healing abnormally fast. Sometimes gens seem to go a bit fast but slugging a survivor or two generally breaks that up.
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The few matches I’ve played as killer have also had a higher frequency of speedy gen completions but the coordination I’m seeing elsewhere tells me it’s maybe just SWFs being SWFs. It has me slugging more and playing a bit more aggressively than I generally like when I encounter that, but it’s counterable so long as you recognize what’s happening.
I can’t necessarily say I blame them though - solo queue survivor matches have been miserable the past few days. If gens were going slower there’d just be more 4Ks at 5 gens. -
If there aren’t that many DCs then why devote dev time to develop systems to punish them?
If most of the DCs that occur are due to internet issues and not frustrations with the match, why punish them at all?
It’s clear DCs are happening frequently enough to justify a response and since punishment is expected to change that behavior it can be inferred that the behavior isn’t believed to be due to accidental circumstances like internet flakiness. Anecdotally, yeah - every DC I’ve seen in a match I’ve been in has seemed related to a situation where someone or everyone is getting stomped.
By excluding this data, they’re potentially excluding data from matches where one side is dominating the other. If that happens enough, it obviously skews how well a side looks in aggregate.
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I think it's important to keep in mind what the problem with tunneling is in the first place. A player having the entire match be hook, unhook, immediate re-down and re-hook, unhook, immediate re-down and death is simply not fun for that player. It doesn't matter WHY the killer engages in this behavior, it's still just as unengaging and frustrating for the survivor.
Since the only way to prevent that is literal invulnerability and I doubt BHVR would consider even a limited, deep wounds, style version of that I'd say the only way to improve things would be to make it so disadvantageous to tunnel that it's punishing to do so.
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I've been away for a year or so and just came back. One thing I noticed is how tiny a lot of the maps are now. I was playing demo on shattered square and realized about midway through that I was just patrolling gens without bothering to use the portals I dropped. I could get from one end of the map to the other just by walking fast enough that using the portal system felt like a waste of time. I can't see how survivors are expected to accomplish much when I'm literally moments away from each of them at all times.
All but one match I felt like I was steamrolling the survivors. For those matches, the escapes were mainly because I was sick of being steamrolled as a survivor and intentionally made sub-optimal plays so they wouldn't feel as stomped as I did.
Since queue times and bp bonuses have leaned favorably toward survivors (and since I play both sides), I've been spending most matches as a survivor. With how small the maps are and everyone spawning together I've experienced more accidental body blocking in the past 2 days than I remember experiencing all together in my prior play time. It seems like every other chase I end up running the killer right into a gen that's being worked on by someone because where the hell else am I going to go - the map's for ants.
I have only had a couple instances where I got a crow. Once where I was at a gate I 99'd and once where I was trying to avoid catching the eye of a heavily patrolling killer. A big crow shaped arrow flying around my head isn't exactly what I need when I'm trying to avoid being spotted but I guess looping and gen rushing are now preferred to any sort of stealth or avoidance plays.
One thing I have noticed is it's another thing I'm constantly worried about during a match. I was dragging a Nemesis zombie over to a pallet from a gen and the whole time I was thinking - oh man, I wish this zombie would hurry up, I'm going to get crows. Not getting crows has become a primary objective. Any play to increase my odds of escape or even just for fun is weighed against that ticking clock now.