MDRSan
MDRSan
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My latest experiences with her are we're entering a magic period post-update where survivors' actual knowledge on how to play against her updated condemned mechanics is higher than the killers estimation of how much they know. It's certainly going to be short lived but hey - the longer a Sadako thinks spamming teleport will work by itself while a group of survivors carry more tapes around than your ill fated local Blockbuster the better. She felt downright oppressive on day 1.
One tricky bit I have run into is finding active TVs to get a tape from in the first place. When the whole team knows what's up it can be hard finding ones that haven't been disabled by a teleport or by someone already grabbing a tape without doing a lap around the map.
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Really? I like garden of joy. The only thing that looks wonky on that map to me is the compressed metal/trash jungle gyms but those are kind of a shared visual across maps.
I do agree about Haddonfield though - it looks nice.
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Circling back to the original post, it's one thing to say gens are going too fast and another to determine how fast they should actually be able to be done. The game isn't designed for survivors to be able to outlast the killer indefinitely and adjustments to generator speeds probably don't scale linearly with kill rates. (and they definitely don't scale linearly with percentage based regression perks)
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I will say the bots seem to be hatch finding ninjas though. I hate when I run across a real survivor before a bot near the end of a game because I know those things are hatch bloodhounds.
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If the red stain is projecting through a solid wall then that's a bug. Report it so they know about it. I haven't ever personally seen that happen so it must be specific to whatever surface you were on. It does project over vaultable surfaces and you can see it on the other side of a wall if the wall has cracks but that's all intentional.
Killers don't see their own red stain - only survivors see it. Maybe the doctor can see fake projected ones (I can't remember off hand) but right now it's not something the killer sees.
It's basically a weaker equivalent to scratch marks but for survivors. It gives the directional queue that scratch mark intensity and placement gives but requiring LOS (or close to it if just around a corner) with the thing you're tracking. Terror radius just gives you rough proximity.
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You left out the fact that the killer has a weapon. I'd call that an advantage.
I wait at the gate sometimes but it's always to try and run interference if a wounded team mate is coming, to get a heal so I can help rescue someone, or just to remain present in case someone needs help. I don't t bag or anything. This could easily be to my disadvantage if blood warden is in play but it's a calculated risk depending on if I see someone being carried after the gates are open.
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@DY86 said:
Every once in a while posts like this are made and every time I say the same thing:
- U should not be forced to be in a match u dont wanna be
- Now more than ever there are ways to take the game hostage (i.e. Skull Merchant 3 genin at 5 gens) and you should have a way out
- and most importantly in a 1v2 scenario you should be able to ######### on hook to give the other player a chance to find the hatch right away.
- The devs themselves already said they are not gonna force someone be in a match so u should just drop it
RE: #3, I had a funny moment in a match the other day. Given the situation - our hook states, how the match was going, my stubborn insistence on going for saves, etc. I'm pretty sure the Mikaela DC'd so I could have hatch.
The result? I got death hooked and robo-Mikaela got hatch. lol.
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Wesker. Then Wesker again, followed by a Wesker just to make sure.
I prefer nurse blinks that don't auto-attack everything along their trajectory - it leads to more strategy in both side's movement.
Even if he had the best teachables in the game - still Wesker. Always Wesker.
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I don't know anything about these competitions but yeah, that seems pretty ridiculous and an overly literal reading of the rule text. If they released a new color bunny feng outfit, would that be viewed as unfair to use? It does nothing but look adorable but maybe that qualifies as an 'item'. It's not like different survivors have different base kit abilities or anything. There could just be 1 survivor and everything be cosmetics for all the gameplay effect it has.
The Wraith is grasping at straws. Team Eternal technically broke the rules but not in any way that could conceivably affect the outcome of the match and it's very likely they didn't even realize they were doing anything outside the rules.
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My guess is it's because the actual problem is players who give up and not the mechanic of hook suicides itself. Trying to quantify when someone gives up would be a game of whack-a-mole that never ends. Telling a player's intentions based solely on their behavior is tricky and can lead to false positives as you go down the 'what should get a penalty' line of reasoning. DCs are the most cut and dry but even then they aren't 100%. I've DCed from several matches over the past 2 weeks - not because I intended to but because my internet decided to flake out for a min or 2.
Say they eliminated the self-unhook mechanic - now a player will just stand AFK.
Now they start flagging AFK players (what constitutes AFK - crows, no input - what if the killer won't leave and you can only stand still until they do). Players will lay something on their keyboard or lean their controller stick on something to perform meaningless, move forward inputs.
Now they start checking for uninterrupted movement inputs. How long does uninterrupted mean? The whole match? If the whole match, they can just pick the can up and put it back down once in the match. If not the whole match, how many false flags will that cause?
All the while, they 'fixed' the issue of self-unhook suicides but haven't actually done anything to solve the actual problem and have created collateral damage of removing a mechanic that had valid uses sometimes.
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My guess is it's intentional - bots could play more perfectly than most any human if unconstrained. They probably put in some randomness to mimic how something with human reflexes, attentiveness, and awareness would succeed and fail at various tasks in the game.
If they wanted to get really fancy they could train an AI model off tons of play logs (provided that level of detail is logged) and it would be even more 'real player' like. That might just be the fan of overengineering in me speaking though. Project managers ruin all the fun.
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@Shadow_legend_69 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3494357#Comment_3494357
Been seeing this a lot, you know you can put it in any tv right? You can only GRAB a tape from an active one but you can put it in any tv on or off
Honestly no, I didn't realize that lol. Do you still get auras from inactive TVs when you're close? I don't think I remember seeing them but I could be misremembering.
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@DemonDaddy said:
Wish they would stop making counterplay so easy, I prefer situations that actually require thought and strategy.
The counterplay here isn’t totally without consideration. Holding a tape protects you from zone wide condemned application sure, but if you’re holding one and she hits you it applies 2 stacks of condemned and destroys the tape. So long as Sadako is spreading out who she’s hitting, holding tapes would be a detriment. If she seems to be relying more on teleports to apply condemned then holding tapes is a counter. There’s some back and forth there.
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I haven’t had enough games with her to agree she’s super oppressive but the 1 I played as her and 3 against her have all gone in Sadako’s favor. The tricky part about cleansing with a tape is finding an active TV to put it in before she hits you.
The best counter I can think of would be for all players in a match to focus on moving tapes around whenever she’s not right there on you and do gens as a secondary objective. Shut down as many TVs as possible and keep your stacks as low as possible so you can take a hit while holding a tape without becoming fully condemned. The trouble there is getting everyone on the same page - most matches are solo q and I can only t bag out directions in Morse code so quickly.
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I’m thinking bird hair.
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I’ve only used it once so far but the proc I got was a random item (toolbox in my case).
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I had a bot get crows in a match earlier - it was weird. I found the last actual survivor remaining around the time the noise notifications started and left the person alone. After death hooking Robo-Feng we found the hatch together. I’m not giving a bot hatch, lol.
(Which funnily enough happened to me earlier when I was playing survivor. Robo-Mikaela, Sadako? Really? You wound me.)
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3493603#Comment_3493603
I do understand why people view it as poor sportsmanship: entitlement. And don't get me wrong, there is entitlement on both sides, but survivors are exceptional in expecting they can shame and guilt a killer into playing suboptimally. Bring slowdown perks? Toxic. Tunnel someone out? Toxic. It is absolutely within my right to call someone out for saying a tactic is scummy, if the tactic is, in fact, not scummy, and you haven't demonstrated that it is. You don't get to label a tactic scummy just because it hurts your feelings, and shame every player out of doing it. Now, I'll admit, killers do bear a certain amount of responsibility in dictating the pace of the game if they happen to be playing against solo Q. If you have a fresh install as one of your solo Q teammates, and the killer relentlessly tunnels them out, that's scummy, because odds are they can win very easily even without doing so, since the survivor will likely waste a lot of time and the team will be playing with 3 people. But that's more so a problem with the MMR system than it is with the killer himself. If the killer is playing against moderately competent survivors who are familiar with the game mechanics and tunnels, that's not being scummy. That's just playing to win.
Check this out: I'm a survivor in a deadzone. Killer finds me, I take the hit and run to an area with tiles. Now, if I go down, I'm either going down in a tile, or between tiles. Either way, I didn't go down in a deadzone. To go down in a deadzone, you have to be injured, be in a deadzone, and get caught off-position by the killer. And yes, that is 100% a skill issue.
Wrong, you can't kill a survivor when you want. You can kill a survivor only when all the following has been done: survivor is down, survivor is on death hook, no one is around for a flashlight save, survivor isn't down on a pallet where they can be pallet saved, there is a nearby hook, there isn't enough people nearby to take hits or sabo the hook, and survivor doesn't have DS. Some of these are within the control of the killer, others are not. Being able to find a death hook survivor on command isn't something most killers on the roster can do. Dropping chase on your tunnel out will often lead to them disappearing into thin air.
We already addressed the whole "just pressure gens bro" argument. I'm not going in circles here. Address my response or stop repeating yourself.
Apparently I need to be overly literal with my words. You can down a survivor whenever you want. You don’t need to down THIS survivor right now if chasing others off gens will buy you more time to get more hooks. The game favors survivors at the start of the match and the killer at the end because of resource usage across the map, knowledge (or lack of knowledge) of where people are, and everyone starting out with full health.
So far as calling behavior scummy, the definition for this informal use is despicable; contemptible. As these are subjective judgements made based on how others see or are affected by a behavior, the term fits whether the person engaging in the behavior likes it or not. It is by nature not their call.
Everywhere that isn’t a dead zone isn’t safe and full of god pallets. Not going down in a dead zone doesn’t mean the killer can’t get you if they decide to tunnel you out. It helps, sure - but you’re still probably going back to a hook.
It’s also worth noting that a killer’s win condition doesn’t start a a 4K. Any survivor escaping doesn’t mean the killer ‘lost’. The vast majority of games are not against SWFs. I myself only play solo q. Let’s say you’re right - that in high end matches the tactic is necessary. What is that - 5% of all matches, tops? Let’s give it a wide berth and say 10%. So now, 90% of all players can just shut up and deal with it? I don’t think so.
Let me be clear about something I think you misunderstand from my argument - I have no problem with one side playing to win - that’s what you do in a game. I don’t think ‘because I did it to win’ functions as some blanket shield from a behavior being criticized nor do I think tunneling is the only way you can possibly win in the vast majority of scenarios.
Unless I’m missing something, I don’t see where you addressed why pressuring gens isn’t a valid tactic that reduces the need to tunnel. I saw where you jumped ahead to the end of the tunnel and explained why you need to keep tunneling at that point but not why you started the tunnel rather than apply gen pressure in the first place.
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Surface collision in RPD can be added to the list of bugs this patch as well. I have never blinked straight into a faceplant as often as I did in a match I had there earlier tonight.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3493101#Comment_3493101
Survivors can absolutely do a lot to prevent tunneling. For one, they can hop in and take hits when the killer is trying to bloodlust. Two, they can take the killer to areas with no objectives when being tunneled, or very strong areas of the map to extend the chase significantly. Three, they can bring antitunnel and basically guarantee their escape when the last gen pops and they go down for 2nd hook (assuming they're not also running Adren). I would even argue, survivors have more counterplay to tunneling than killer has to, say, four toolboxes on four different gens.
Fun is subjective. But yes, some of the most fun I've had in this game was while being tunneled. And also some of the least fun. It's fun being tunneled by a huntress while I have an insane chain of loops and she's ignoring all my teammates on gens. It's not fun being tunneled off-hook by a cracked Blight with Alch Ring+Crow after he hooks me in a huge deadzone. But again, that's subjective. I'm not arguing being tunneled is fun, because fun isn't objective. I'm also arguing that whether one side has fun or not shouldn't be of any concern to the other side. The goal of the game is to win. If someone wants to invent their own goals while within a trial and have fun while doing so, that's completely fine. Some squads go into a game with no intent of escaping, with their only intent being to bully the killer relentlessly with flashlights and Head On plays. That killer may enjoy finally downing all of them and getting the 4k. In this scenario, both sides had fun. But neither side is responsible for the other side's fun. I say, do whatever is most conducive to achieving your own fun in the game, as long as you're not using outright unfair or broken strategies/items (BNPs, MFT, old Eruption+COB+OC, 3-gen merchant). The other side's expectations of you matter very little.
How is your experience my problem? I've had bad experiences with survivors BMing when they 4-out even after I go out of my way to 8-hook, while playing a weaker killer, and trying to play as nice as possible, because they viewed the fact I outplayed them so easily at so many loops as toxic. In this scenario, I had no fun getting BM'd, and I took it even more personal because I was going out of my way to try and give them a chance, when I could have very easily secured the win by playing sweaty. Both sides go into games knowing what to expect, queue times are fine where they are with people tunneling and genrushing.
You're right, I don't know your MMR, and I don't know my own. I just know I used to hold the same opinion as you: that tunneling is completely unnecessary, that I can easily land a 4k on a survivor-sided map on a D tier killer while running meme perks. Then I started playing with the big boys, and even while playing Blight and ending my chases in 30 seconds, I'm still losing gens left and right. When you get to a point where you start playing against really good survivors consistently, you'll sing a different tune.
I've already told you, if you get hooked in a deadzone, that is 100% on you. That's not the killer's fault they chose to go down in a deadzone. And if the killer carries you to a more barren area, your team has the option to take hits for you to escort you to somewhere a little safer.
No, you can't kill a survivor whenever you want. As soon as you have one survivor on 2 hooks and everyone else is on 0 hooks, the tunnel-out is going to start deep stealthing, while the others will be as loud and disruptive as possible. Good luck finding your tunnel out when they hide in a locker in some corner of the map as soon as they hear TR. Are you gonna spend that time trying to defend your last 1-2 gens, or are you going to start hoping you find this immersed survivor?
Wanting to win, playing to win, actually winning, and playing in a way that frustrating and unfun to the other side are not mutually exclusive concepts. What I don't understand is why you don't seem to understand why this particular tactic is commonly viewed as poor sportsmanship by the other side. If you want to disregard others and play the way you want that is perfectly within your rights. What isn't within your rights is to say someone is wrong to call a tactic bad or scummy just because you feel entitled to play that way and it doesn't affect your personal enjoyment of the game.
I was unaware it was up to the survivor where they go down. Next time I'm on a survivor I'll try asking the killer if they would mind walking over to a specific area with me before they land a blow.
Yes, you can kill a survivor whenever you want. What you can't do is keep a gen from progressing whenever you want. If one survivor is on 2 hooks and everyone else is on zero you have no one but yourself to blame as you clearly didn't go after anyone else. You created the situation that you claim now ties your hands. It also should be considered that maybe the reason the game is down to 1 or 2 gens in that situation is that you didn't put any pressure on 3/4 of their team.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492693#Comment_3492693
Calling it "not against the rules" in this context as your only comment on it is reductive at best and extremely disingenuous at worst. It's neither unfair, nor bad. There are situations where the killer's best move is to tunnel (those situations are pretty common), and there are others where it will lead the killer to a loss.
The behavior isn't jerkish either, just the same way it's not jerkish for survivors to split up on different gens across the map. It's just being efficient. Both sides are doing their best to win, one shouldn't be condemned while the other is commended.
"I never tunnel and yet I get 4k's all the time while running no slowdown" yes, I remember I used to say the same thing. Then I crawled my way out of baby MMR. Against any team worth their salt, AKA no baby Dwight that spends the entire game crouched in a corner and opening chests, even assuming they're not on comms, you WILL lose the game if you don't tunnel, or, at best, 2k, unless if they make a significant blunder and let you snowball, or you happen to be one of very few strong killers and playing them at a high level.
My argument is it that neither side is responsible for the other side's fun. Killers don't enjoy seeing 4 gens pop before they even get their first hook, and survivors don't enjoy being camped and tunneled when they go down in a deadzone. That's neither side's fault, and neither behavior is toxic. This entitlement somehow only seems to exist on the survivor side, where survivors will go out of their way to condemn a killer for playing in a way that will win them the game.
There absolutely is a playing better to loop the killer. There are enough resources on every map in the game for all gens to get completed twice over, and probably more, depending on the map. Chain loops and play them to their fullest, and you'll have a better experience. If the killer is already committed to the tunnel, they're very unlikely to drop chase to go for a healthy survivor because they hear a 90% gen and you're injured on your first hook. Your job is to not go down, and that's it.
Ok, so the killer is supposed to push people off gens then? So what happens when the killer is pushing one survivor off a gen? What are the other three up to? Or is he supposed to drop chase and go back to the other gens to push survivors off of them? When does the killer have time to chase exactly? The most effective strategy for a killer is to hook a survivor close to gens that have some progress, and proxy the objective. If I'm really sweating and I have a gen regressing and a survivor on hook, I'm likely gonna stay in the area. And if I see one, or even two survivors nearby, you can bet I'm not going anywhere and you're not getting the unhook for free. That's not toxic, that's just me playing to win. The killers that lose gens left and right while tunneling are the ones that get lead by the tunneled survivor on a wild goose chase, often leading the chase to 0% gens, or worse, completed gens, and the killer is unable to do multiple things at once at that point. Again, there's very few killers that have the power to transition quickly between pressuring and chasing. What chance do you stand if you're not playing one of them?
There's a clear difference between survivors going to different gens and tunnelling. Survivors can't make the killer do anything and can't knock the killer out of the game. Again I ask - are you arguing being tunneled is fun? Are you arguing that whether someone does it to win is what makes whether it's fun or not relevant? Are you arguing that in a game no one is paid to play, whether one side has fun or not is irrelevant?
The entitlement goes both ways it seems. Arguing that someone else's experience is beneath consideration so long as they aren't affected is pretty entitled and a little short sighted. If enough matches are frustrating enough for one side then the other side is going to have some fun queue times.
So far as my MMR, I don't know what it is any more than you know what yours is. I will point out that if someone averages mostly 3 and 4Ks they aren't staying at the same MMR. All the pallets in the world are irrelevant if they're not anywhere near you. Same with strong jungle gym configurations. You can't outrun the killer - full stop. The only escape against a killer that can loop as well or better than you is if the killer chooses to break chase. There are no more infinites. Again, since this discussion is about tunnelling then the killer isn't going to break chase. If they did, they aren't tunnelling and then what are we even talking about?
If you think other survivors are on generators that you can't afford to have pop, then yes - you should break chase and get them regressing. You can kill a survivor whenever you want. You can only prevent a gen from popping before it's complete. Proxy camping is a double edged sword unless you've managed to set up a really tight 3 gen setup. You're choosing to secure one likely kill in exchange for giving a time advantage to the remaining survivors. They may or may not take you up on your exchange.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492505#Comment_3492505
Again, you're inventing these scenarios in your head and using them as an absolute. If the killer is proxying, they likely are not close enough to get an instant hit off unhook. In which case, your unhooker can escort you to the nearest pallet to take a hit. If your unhooker is competent enough, they can deny the hit until you get to the pallet, at which point you still have your endurance.
But even after you lose your endurance, again, you have old Iron Will. You can afford to just leave a tile without alerting the killer that you're doing so, you can afford to play mindgames because your grunts of pain can't be heard, and you have no aura. You have a much easier time losing the killer in a chase. Even if the killer loses you, and stops to kick a nearby gen/pallet to get aura read, your Distortion saves you from that. The endurance portion isn't COUNTERED by hard tunneling, it functions TO counter hard tunneling. At the end of the day, unless you're really able to run the killer well, you'll probably die. Assuming you're able to run the killer for all 5 gens, you likely bought your team a 3-out, which is a loss for the killer. If you even manage to get your 2nd hook by the time last gen pops/is almost done, you should be able to 4-out if you have a gate close enough and your team can take hits. OTR enables all of this. Let's not forget that you can also combine OTR with DS+DH for the double Endurance whammy for complete antitunnel value. I've ran killers for 3+ minutes using this same build after they tried to tunnel.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3492568#Comment_3492568
No, the devs specifically mentioned that tunneling is a valid strategy, not that it simply wasn't against the rules. For example, bleeding someone out when there's a hook right in front of you isn't against the rules, but it's not really a strategy. It's just BM. Tunneling is an objectively good and efficient strategy, and I would argue that in today's meta, it's necessary to secure a lot of wins.
Also, a killer isn't a jerk for tunneling. A killer wanting to win isn't toxic, they're just sweaty. Being sweaty isn't being toxic. This is something survivor mains need to get through their heads: a killer playing to win isn't personally targeting you, and isn't being toxic. They just want to win as much as you want to win.
You absolutely have plenty you can do instead of going from hook to hook. Your best option is to just play better and loop the killer. Run to a safe pallet, drop it, and run it until the killer breaks it, go to the next one, rinse and repeat. You're now buying your team time to do all the gens, and might even escape assuming you do a good enough job. And if you do, you are the MVP of the game as you've managed to run the killer for enough time for your team to do all gens. If your team is good enough, and they see you're in trouble, even solo Qers will jump in to take a hit if they see you nearby, which resets Bloodlust and gives you distance.
I agree that a killer is partly responsible for the pace of the game, but so are survivors. If survivors are efficient, and split up on gens instantly, odds are they will have 3 gens pop by the time the first chase ends. What chance do most killers stand against this if they don't tunnel? There is a mathematical problem in DBD; survivors are simply too efficient. But for some reason, killers are expected to spread their hooks out, but survivors are allowed to sit on a gen from 0 to 100% and no one bats an eye. Maps are too safe, survivors are too efficient, and gens are too easy. This is also the reason why you see more and more people gravitating towards playing stronger killers; survivors turn into gen jockeys when left alone and unbothered. A killer may either hope to get someone out early and possibly secure a win before the last few gens pop, or may hope for altruistic plays that they can snowball off of. Once the last gen pops and you get slapped with 4x Adrenaline, all bets are off for the killer.
This is compounded by the fact we keep getting more and more broken perks, like MFT, which only further enable survivors to waste a killer's time for free.
Not against the rules or a perfectly valid strategy mean the same thing in context of what my point was. Neither statement precludes something being unfun, unfair, or otherwise bad.
I never said a killer was a jerk for tunnelling, just that the behavior is jerkish. I never said a killer wanting to win was toxic. I disagree that tunnelling is necessary to win if that's the argument there. I never tunnel and aside from a handful of games with really good survivors, the only times I don't get 3 or 4Ks are when I choose to go easy or let people go. I can only remember a couple of games where I didn't at least get a 1K and was actually trying. Doing something in the pursuit of winning doesn't then shield that behavior from criticism. Is your argument that getting tunneled is fun for the survivor player or that it doesn't matter because the killer thought it would help them win?
Unless there's an infinite loop hidden somewhere I'm not aware of, there is no playing better to loop the killer forever. Again, we're discussing tunneling here so this killer is not breaking chase. I'm not an amazing survivor, but I'm not new either - I'm capable of looping. What I can't do is spawn pallets out of my butt or convince the killer to move the chase to a more advantageous tile.
The survivor that sat on a gen from 0 to 100% was a survivor that the killer never chased off the gen. Survivors have one objective that directly contributes to their win condition - generators. A killer that plays to pressure gen progression and have kills/hooks come while doing that is going to have an easier time than one who mainly focuses on getting kills and wonders why survivors keep getting gens they aren't patrolling done. A killer can't tunnel a survivor and then act surprised the other survivors were working on the only objective that matters in the mean time.
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I haven't played on the PTB but from reading the original changes + these updated buffs I don't see how they nerfed the ability to spread around condemned - just changed how it's done and made it base-kit. The only 'nerf' I see in the latest changes is to what happens when you hook a survivor carrying a video tape.
Add-ons should boost or change how a killer plays, not be responsible for whether they're viable. They've made spreading condemned around more a part of her base-kit. How is that a bad thing?
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@DBD78 said:
No! SC was a huge problem in SoloQ before where people where healing for ages instead of doing gens or unhooking. Now people bring medkits and gens are flying so you can escape. Buff SC and we are back in hell again.
I only play solo queue so who knows where my team mates are half the time. Nerfing self care and med-kits didn't result in me getting successfully healed more often by members of my team. It just resulted in me getting better at dead hard's timing and running around injured from the first time i'm hit to the obligatory group heal BP farm inside the exit gate.
Even regular healing from another team mate feels like it takes forever anymore and is a waste of time without botany knowledge or CoH if anyone bothered to use it.
Healing just feels more pointless all around anymore. Not because I do better injured or anything, just because I don't tend to do worse and the extra time I might get in chase averages to break even at best to the time spent staying healthy.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3490894#Comment_3490894
The devs themselves have said as much. Besides the tunneled survivor likely losing a pip (pip system is its own can of worms), what is one thing that is objectively wrong with tunneling?
I don't believe the devs have ever said getting tunneled is fun or engaging gameplay though, just that it isn't against the rules. 'Bad' encompasses more than just exploits or unintentional gameplay interactions. I would argue that unfun gameplay and the frustration of being able to do nothing during a match but go from hook to hook might not be 'wrong' but is something that makes it fair to say the killer is playing like a jerk.
One thing to consider is that the game is designed in a way that makes it mostly up to the killer so far as whether you are downed once they see you. Occasionally a survivor will lose me in chase if they're set up for stealth, know the map well, and are in area that allows for effective, post-LOS break plays but the vast majority of chases that don't result in downs are because I chose to end chase to maintain gen pressure or get an easier down. If I was tunnelling then there is no choice to make and that survivor will likely be going down.
The only thing that mitigates how unfun it is from a survivor perspective is the fact that not every single killer does it. If they did, I would just stick to killer and not bother queueing up for survivor - bp bonus or no.
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They have to consider how this affects survivor matches in both kill rate and fun. A killer playing exclusively to down the entire team versus one playing to apply pressure to gens along with downing the entire team usually feels very different from a survivor perspective. If a survivor needs to worry about progressing gens and running away from the killer, the killer should need to regress gens and chase survivors.
As much as one side insists they aren't responsible for the other side's fun, if killer or survivor becomes too unfun or feels hopeless to play then who's going to queue up for that role in the first place?
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I've gotten DCed 3 times today - each time I immediately checked Steam and my browser and both were connected to the internet just fine. The progressive DC penalty has me thinking I'm done for the day - just hit 15 mins and don't want to give their servers a chance to ding me any more.
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@JawsIsTheNextKiller said:
He could have just been a cheater but did you check his perks? HillBillies often like to use information perks to take advantage of his amazing map presence.
"how is it even enjoyable to play this game (or any other for that matter) with absolutely no challenge whatsoever?"
Any Blight players want to answer this one?
It may look easy to an outside observer but you need to realize, half those trees are just unusually large sticks of butter that are shaped like trees. Pretty much 50% of the random clutter on knight's map too. It's like different thematic areas in a large butter theme park. The mind boggles.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3484082#Comment_3484082
I distinctly remember one game on Haddonfield against him. It was impossible to break his 3 gen because 2 of the last gens were in one of the houses, and those houses had a bunch of lockers on the second floor and there were no more lockers left. I don't think we could have done anything at that point, he just could teleport away. Must have also been the one Dredge player who knew what he was doing somewhat.
I’m honestly surprised by the number of dredges that don’t use locker teleports in chase when I play survivor. That’s one of my favorite things to do with him, map and survivor pathing allowing.
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@BarnesFlam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3485349#Comment_3485349
Because the map was given free to everyone. No player had to pay for it.
Right but I mean contractually. Like, I can interact with a demogorgon as a survivor in a match even though I missed the purchase time period to be able to play one myself. From what I’ve seen in videos, Hawkins could double as a random Umbrella lab with zero change beyond the name where the demogorgon is much more IP specific.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3482949#Comment_3482949
Hard disagree. Its a lesser bloodlust that is permanent as long as you are injured with a downside that is almost irrelevant. The loops, pallets, windows, and maps in general were designed and balanced around the killers moving a certain amount faster than the survivors. 3% MS is a hell of a lot and it makes every loop in the game so much safer and chases take so much longer.
They were also probably balanced around the idea that a survivor has 2 health states. If we’re going to discuss MfT as if it was a constant thing during a match, they we need to acknowledge that the survivors in question only have 1 health state and the related consequences of that - no 1st hit speed boost, chase over after 1st hit, etc.
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Map offerings are made before the killer is known - for all the survivor knows, they’re about to play against a nurse. If all maps were equal, they’d basically be pallet swaps - some random alien crap instead of a hay bale - boom, new map. The fact that some are better for stealth, ranged, blight ping ponging off stuff, etc. is what makes them feel different and not stale from match to match.
Honestly, I don’t think I’ve ever used a single map offering on either killer or survivor. It just doesn’t make that much difference provided I adjust my play style.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3485014#Comment_3485014
Call me pessimistic but I don’t think any of these changes will change much about these fundamental problems. If people still want to play like this it won’t stop them. They’ll still camp, just from 16 meters out, then they’ll just tunnel. It’s just face camping with extra steps. Hook grabs aren’t that big of problem since survivors usually win them 90% of the time. As for 3 genning, I think the only fix to this is to improve gen spawns which I think would be a rather massive undertaking, which leads me to think their solution might not be the best.
On the plus side, I sometimes come across killers that seem to be trying to out-range Kindred when I run it but only get the range they think they’re getting about 50% of the time. If that’s any indication then 50% of the time the anti-camp might work. Either that or train them to be better at getting the distance right. Nevermind, I talked myself out of the plus side.
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I wonder why they removed the map when they obviously just had to stop selling the characters but not remove them if already purchased?
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Probably because they would be a little too annoying if they weren’t. Given that pallets aren’t infinite, nor are their nearby presence a given, there needs to be some way to counter their effect on an area. Last I stunned one, the stun didn’t really last that long anyway.
Like Phantom_ said, they’re still broadcasting info even if stunned. It’s even better than the arms stretched out silhouette since no one flashlight stuns a zombie if they aren’t staying right there in the area. Who knows what the chase animation zombies are after - they might have just seen a squirrel.
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@pseudechis said:
I kinda disagree about a game mode without kills.
Its basically respawn farm mode, which is DBD at its dullest.
I don't mind if people want to have a farm but honestly I'd appreciate it more if the Nurse had just brutally crushed us all and we moved on with the game.
DBD shines when the killer is a monster, when you are under no threat its pretty boring to play survivor in those circumstances.
The safer you feel as survivor the less thrilling the game is, a game mode where you are basically completely safe as survivor and just get to farm points is just completely un-thrilling. While the concept might appease those who dislike losing for a while, the replay-ability would eventually nosedive given the complete lack of game intensity.
Conversely having a string of games where you spend, percentage-wise, more time on hook or slugged than anything and feel like you can get nothing accomplished isn’t thrilling either.
I think it would be interesting for a holiday or something to introduce cooperative goals in regular matches. You don’t HAVE to play any differently, but you aren’t getting a neat snowman head if you don’t. (Or something like that)
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Are the in game reports sufficient? If you need to go through the process of doing an in game report, then filling out an online form after researching the player’s ID from whatever platform they’re coming from as well as compiling and uploading video evidence I’ve honestly never bothered. That’s always seemed like an unreasonable amount of effort that can’t possibly be the only way cheaters/exploiters are dealt with.
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- Which killer are you playing? Depending on your mobility there’s some ways to either pin or catch survivors doing that upstairs, single person gen. If you can remove your terror radius you can catch them in the room or if not, go halfway up the stairs and look toward the room to see if you see them going out the window. If you didn’t see them go for either window, they’re probably in the locker across the hall. If they want to be extra sneaky, they might have gone to the empty room most folks never check.
- For the home basement, if the generator is chugging but one loop around the 2 stairs didn’t see anyone - there’s probably someone in one of the 4 (IIRC) lockers (generally if theres a gen chugging along and no scratch marks, they’re probably in a locker in any of the buildings unless you chased someone off earlier since I think there’s always nearby lockers for the indoor gens on that map).
- Keep the breakable walls in place in the actual school - it helps box survivors in if they’re doing the basement gen there as well.
- If you haven’t seen anyone and you’ve been patrolling the gens out in the open, they’re probably doing a gen in a building. Just a few things I off the top of my head that I usually do on that map.
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@Sharby said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3482514#Comment_3482514
Yes but I'm not going to go beat someone mid game to intentionally get banned from the sport forever, I'm just going to not play.
Of course not, but no one’s doing that here either.
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They should at least whitelist terms that are used in game, common terms, etc. It’s not like the list would have to be that long to make an improvement. Most of the time I’m saying something completely innocuous but the censoring makes it look like it was something insulting.
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@Sharby said:
I swear from the way you people talk about DBD I feel like I'm playing a completely different game.
Its really never that serious.
Things don’t have to be life or death to be infuriating. Basketball is just a game but if every time you got the ball it was immediately smacked out of your hand, you’re going to get a little frustrated.
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@Cayennepepper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/383085/yay-still-4-more-months-till-mft-nerf
Any exhaustion perk is better than MFT. Killer Main try not to cry about mediocre perks after losing to someone using them once challenge (impossible). The issue isn't the perk, the issue is you encountered a survivor more skilled than you who looped you all game, resulting in a match loss. They weren't able to loop you because of that perk, buddy, it's because they were better. You just convinced yourself it was the perk as a cope. I play both roles regularly, I'm a Deathslinger main, so it rarely affects me - but I do own and play as every other killer. Yes, like playing against any other perk builds, you can lose if you play poorly. I played as Doctor against a bully squad, one player was a P100 Vittorio, who was able to loop me for three gens. I got 5 hooks in that game and zero kills. Coincidentally he was using MFT. Instead of attributing this loss to the "unfair" perk he was using, I realized I lost because of a skill difference. I'm a prestige one on Doctor, and I rarely play him. I only prestiged him for his perks. Even if he didn't have this perk, I would've lost 110%. I was inexperienced with Doctor, and Their team was simply better than me. My initial reaction wasn't to cope with it on the forums by crying about a weak perk. People who can derive value from this perk are already good at looping, and they'd be able to do it with or without it.
I wouldn’t necessarily say any exhaustion perk is ‘better’ than MfT - it really depends on what you want to do or how you want to play. I tend to favor lithe when playing survivor but whenever I do play around with MfT it’s an intentional trade-off that I’d like to play with a more broadly available but lower impact speed bump than a more situational and limited, but higher impact one.
For a lot of meta perks, they aren’t necessarily ‘best’ - they’re just widely proven effective with a dash of group think. There are just too many situational factors that affect how much value any given perk will provide in a match.
Assuming MfT is overpowered (which I don’t think it is, but for illustration purposes - let’s pretend) then no mither + MfT should be pretty good. Then you get a surprise Oni. To dust off an old self-care chestnut, you’re now running the killer’s favorite perk combo.
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@CamperSluggerVillain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481662#Comment_3481662
first off all you're in low mmr beacuse you rarely play doc congrats you beat bad survivors
second mft isn't mediocre and you're not "skilled" for getting outplayed at a loop then getting a free 3% bonus
Nor does it mean they’re unskilled. When a killer runs NOED, I wouldn’t describe it as a handout to killers that failed all match. It’s a perk whose use is an active decision someone made and for all anyone knows is part of their strategy on how to play the match. Same with any other perk - MfT included.
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Him and nurse are currently my 2 favorite killers to play. Data point of one, but in most of my matches he seems to do pretty well. Occasionally I run into a group of survivors who can really leverage the EMPs well and it’s a bit more difficult but not unwinnable or anything. I just have to adjust from a mix of pre-placed and ad-hoc biopods to mainly in chase biopods.
One adjustment to the EMPs that might be helpful to Hux but not too oppressive to survivors is to have a triggered EMP burn out any EMPs that are carried by survivors in range. That said, since Hux can replace pods fairly quickly I’m not sure the limited chaining that’s currently possible with EMPs is that big a problem.
If they were to adjust the diameter of the EMP’s effect they would need to keep the vertical distance as is since survivors should still be able to hit them in trees.
I would like them to do a map pass and fix any areas that are clearly solid and not too high up but inexplicably can’t have biopods attached since it should be made fairly clear what can and can’t have one attached without testing to see which reticle you get. That and the ability to fire through open windows/holes in buildings would be nice.
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While I generally don’t opt out on hook there are occasions where I’m facing my 10th steamrolling solo queue Ghostface/Legion/Wesker for the day and I really don’t see the point in continuing to try only to serve as a bloodpoint cow for the killer. I know THIS Ghostface/Legion/Wesker might be the chillest person in the world but by that point the experienced odds are very much against it.
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I used to not use any since I tend to be an item hoarder in games but lately have taken to using common ones that I have a ton of. I do wish I had more Anxious Gasps for my nurse though - I love that add on and keep running out.
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It’s the nature of the game, and IMO why it can be so frustrating at times. The game is async in both player count and fundamental ‘team’ abilities. It’s like if dodgeball had no back and forth but one side always pelted the other with balls and the other side could only earn points by avoiding them but could never throw one back. One side is entirely defense with no offense so there’s no back and forth like most other games. I tend to enjoy killer more than survivor but play whichever has the BP bonus. Killer matches can be frustrating with particularly slippery survivors but I never feel like I’m getting railed quite like a survivor match that’s playing poorly. I mean what are the survivors going to do - click their flashlights at me? Yes, that’s certainly the same as getting tunneled out of the game. 🙄
Basically killers have an oversized ability to make the survivors miserable if they want. It’s just the game.
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It’s a valid tactic that banks on the killer not wanting to stand there watching you bleed out any more than you want to sit there and bleed out. If you’re in this situation you’re likely the last or next to last survivor so, no, when I play survivor I’m not going to just hand a killer a 4K. They want it, they can pay the price of waiting with me.
One recent example I had was with a pyramid head. It was just me and a Victor left with 1 gen remaining. Victor was on death hook and I was on 1st I think. The Pyramid Head downed the Victor and wandered off, signaling he’s shooting for a 4K and wasn’t going to hook 1 of us when the other still had a chance.
This happened twice where I’d swoop in and heal him out of bleeding until the killer turned their focus to me instead. There was a corner where he had already burnt a hook and any others were out of range to prevent a wiggle escape. It also had a nearby generator that was midway to another available hook. He boxed me in the corner with ground corruption which I refused to cross as I knew what he was doing. This dance of waiting for the corruption to go away, Victor joining me, us healing each other, doing a bit of gen, then running back happened a few times before he finally let us finish and leave.
I wasn’t standing still doing nothing, there was intent behind the strategy and in this case it paid off. And for the killer, they could have gone with a 3K, or even just downed both me and Victor while we were there and waited for the bleed out. Every side had options and choices to make which made for as engaging a match as either side wanted it to be.
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They dedicated 2 perk slots for that setup, are injured, and the waited until the exit gates are powered. It sounds as balanced as endgame exposure perks. They aren’t running around the entire match like this.
People tend to brush off the setup required for best case tests like this. In an ideal situation, perks should give an advantage if that situation is what you’re built for. That a killer can’t catch up to a player in this one situation isn’t a bug - it’s the whole point. Sometimes you don’t get a 4K. Be glad. A 100% kill rate would bring a nerf hammer I don’t think killers would like.
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I wonder why they don’t use the same technique used with Ghostface or Meyers to determine if a stalk is landing. I’ve noticed foliage can be hit or mostly miss, even if you can plainly see most of the survivor through it but figured that was maybe because this is the first time they’ve had to consider tree leaf’s collision meshes.