MDRSan
MDRSan
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@SadLegion said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987563#Comment_3987563
I already explained all my points, so this is my last post on this.
15 minutes difference is not a "slightly shorter".
Answer yourself this: whats more likely to drive away killer players 15 mins queue or 30 mins.
If the system goes away, there will be no same number of killers queuing, because survivors wil have to choose what role they prefer to play more, instead of going for both simultaneously.
What i want is for killers to spend less time searching for a match.Answer yourself this: whats more likely to drive away killer players 15 mins queue or 30 mins.
Both will drive players away, and I notice you're shortening your times now. Play while you wait lets you at least play a match while you wait - and that will bring players. Isn't that what your complaining about - more players clogging up the queue? The alternative is for people to just not play killer when they want to - and you, for some reason, are arguing that's a better experience.
The amount of times you've tap danced around saying you just don't want as many killers to queue up when that's the only logical result of what you're saying is very telling.
I don't know why you can't admit you want less people to queue for killer but as long as you refuse to admit that then yeah, you may as well stop responding.
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@SadLegion said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987543#Comment_3987543
Also, don't go off estimated queue times
I didnt, it checks out with my clock.
It also happens to help alleviate queue imbalances when people actually use it.
It doesnt help alleviate imbalance, it creates an imbalance, because there is no "cost" of putting yourself to killer queue while playing survivor. The button is there for every survivor player, so they might as well press it. And it doesnt balance itself out like you think it does, because that would imply that each player plays their 4 games survivor for each killer game. In reality what we get is a massively bloated killer queues which lead to increased downtime for killer role in 2v8.
Edit: It actually doesnt even matter how many survivor games would anyone play prior to finding killer match. All that matters is survivor : killer ratio at a current time frame. And by allowing every survivor sign for a killer queue ratio increases 1 : 1, when it should be 4 : 1 to balance out.
The only way your argument CAN work is if queue times were so long and boring that it was keeping people from even bothering to queue up as killer.
And now they are even longer and more boring, but hey, people who dont care about which role they play or people who play for a longer periods of time than others have an access to playing killer in 2v8. If some average guy now returns from work to home and decides that he wants to play a killer match in 2v8 he will have to wait for 30 minutes compared to 15 before.
Otherwise why are you arguing play while you wait is increasing killer queue time?
I dont need to argue, its a simple fact.
You are literally arguing that queues should be long and boring enough to discourage people from wanting to play
No, its literally what this system does. While im arguing that previously was better since queues took less time.
this can only help queue times
Well your hypothetical scenario of what should happen doesnt check out with the reality. Queue times got way worse and thats it.
It doesnt help alleviate imbalance, it creates an imbalance, because there is no "cost" of putting yourself to killer queue while playing survivor.
So you do want killer queue times to be so long and boring that a lot of people who want to play killer just give up. You just said as much right here. Funny that you only seem to care when it's YOU that can't tolerate the queue time but are perfectly fine with using slightly shorter but still long queue times to block others from playing the role they want to queue for.
If the play while you wait system goes away and still the exact same number of killers queue that would have if the system is in place then queue times will be even longer than they are now.
What you want is for less people to queue for killer. That's literally the only thing that would lower killer queue times. Just admit you're trying to gatekeep people out of the role so you can have better queue times.
Well your hypothetical scenario of what should happen doesnt check out with the reality. Queue times got way worse and thats it.
You saying that doesn't make it true and that's it.
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@SadLegion said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987521#Comment_3987521
Well i dont know from what region you are, im from EU and my queues went up by 15 minutes minimum, im not exaggerating. Playerbase count went up since the last chapter and has nothing to do with 2v8.
In order for killers to fully "compensate" their killer match, they would need to play 4 survivor games for each killer game. Do you think its a way to go? Make some obligatory task to force players to "pay" for their killer match? Its not a bus ticket, its a videogame and people here play what they want, and if they cant they abandon it.
Also what was the main problem we were trying to solve? Queue times didnt get solved as you can see, they got bloated. So 'play while you wait' introduced a problem instead of fixing it. What we had before worked better since it took less time to find a killer match then. Yet you are saying that previous system was driving away players and not this one.
Well i dont know from what region you are, im from EU and my queues went up by 15 minutes minimum, im not exaggerating. Playerbase count went up since the last chapter and has nothing to do with 2v8.
The player base count rising absolutely has an effect on queue times. The only ways it wouldn't is if the new players were split exactly into 4 people wanting to play survivor for every 1 who wants to play killer or if none of the new players played 2v8. Otherwise, why wouldn't it increase queue times - you're literally adding players to the queue.
Also, don't go off estimated queue times if that's what you're doing. I just had an estimated queue time of 28 minutes go by in a single 10 minute survivor match. It's not real time - it's an estimate, and not a particularly accurate one.
In order for killers to fully "compensate" their killer match, they would need to play 4 survivor games for each killer game. Do you think its a way to go? Make some obligatory task to force players to "pay" for their killer match? Its not a bus ticket, its a videogame and people here play what they want, and if they cant they abandon it.
It isn't obligatory at all. You can still alt-tab, play on your phone, or do whatever you want if you don't want to play any survivor matches. It's an optional mechanic for those of us who would like to at least play some part of the game we loaded into without twiddling our thumbs for 30 minutes. It also happens to help alleviate queue imbalances when people actually use it.
Also what was the main problem we were trying to solve? Queue times didnt get solved as you can see, they got bloated. So 'play while you wait' introduced a problem instead of fixing it. What we had before worked better since it took less time to find a killer match then. Yet you are saying that previous system was driving away players and not this one.
Actually you're the one saying the old system was driving away players. The only way your argument CAN work is if queue times were so long and boring that it was keeping people from even bothering to queue up as killer. Otherwise why are you arguing play while you wait is increasing killer queue time?
You are literally arguing that queues should be long and boring enough to discourage people from wanting to play killer but not so long and boring that you yourself can't get in a match.
Play while you wait lets people queue up for a role they want to play while giving them the option to have some fun playing the other half of the game while they wait. Assuming we aren't trying to just discourage them from playing the game altogether, this can only help queue times.
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@SadLegion said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987512#Comment_3987512
Sorry but i do not understand your point. You say that just because there is an ability to spend time playing survivor in between killer queues, its sufficient enough for players who prefer killer role, and it offsets for them massive downside of ~+18 increased minutes(38 total) queue time? And if it werent for that ability, they would've not play this game mode? Doesnt make any sense to me
There was always an ability to alt-tab and play something else or do something around the house while waiting for queue.And the queue times were way shorter.
Like i said this feature benefits streamers and players who dont care what role they play(or like mostly survivor-preferred players), and antagonizes players who prefer killer role.
Personally I hope they roll this feature out to all queues in all game modes.
Well, if they want to kill their own game.. by all means
No, my point is that it isn't affecting queue times like you are saying it is. My argument is that letting killers who would be in the killer queue anyway play a few survivor matches actually helps lower queue times since they're adding to the pool of survivor players.
My preferred solution is to do what they are doing - let people queue up for what they want to play and let them backfill slots in the needed role while they wait to help alleviate queue times for everyone. Your solution seems to be to gatekeep the killer role by making it so unappealing to queue for them that hardly anyone will tolerate doing it.
Why do you think your solution of just making people not want to play the game is healthier? Why do you think a day's worth of data proves anything? Did you compare how many concurrent players are on for this 2v8 vs. the one you're referencing with the 20 minute queue times?
Today is literally the first time I've seen anything higher than 25 minutes for a killer wait time. It's been fine the past 2 days.
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@SadLegion said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987502#Comment_3987502
The queues became 38 minutes only after Play while you wait feature was introduced. In previous 2v8's they were up to 20 minutes. So effectively what Play while you wait did is heavily worsened queue times. How is that a good thing? Play while you wait IS the reason why queue times became so long.
The only people who benefit from this dont care what role they play. So they could've sticked playing survivor just as well. But the people who wanted to play killer now need to wait twice as long.
Trading such a massive wait time increase for ability to play something you dont want to is not a healthy thing.
If everyone who wanted to play killer queued up as killer without the play while you wait system then wait times would probably be even longer. It might be that the ability to do something other than just sit and wait encourages more people to queue up but that doesn't mean they would have queued up as survivor. They might have just not even bothered with this game mode.
When I've queued up as killer I've gotten 2, sometimes 3 survivor matches in before my killer match is up. It could have been up to 4 if I hadn't just waited when time was below 1 minute. That's at least mostly compensating for the 1 killer match I get to have in exchange for dealing with the nth legion + whoever for the evening.
Personally I hope they roll this feature out to all queues in all game modes.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3986750#Comment_3986750
You can still go next in the match mid match if the timer said 10 mins and 10 mins have gone by. Ive just had numerous matches where at least two people have run into the killer trying to go next halfway through the game.
imo timer should not be given and the option to play as you wait is there if the expected que is longer the x amount of time. so people don't know how long it is and it only confirms its ready after the match. Not giving a ETA prior Like a normal lobby.
something like "que times are long atm would you like to play a match as you wait"
then if its still long after that first match would be like "you are still further along in the que, would you like to play another surviour match as you wait or continue to wait for a killer match in the lobby"
I'd say it still doesn't make sense though - why would they even bother going into another survivor match in the first place rather than just waiting a few minutes if they're that impatient to get into a killer match? If it's longer than a few minutes then I don't see how they would be watching the time that closely.
Personally I'd imagine they just didn't like the killer combo they got, how quickly people went down, the map, or any number of other reasons people go next. I don't think play while you wait is to blame.
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I don't think it works like that. I think play while you wait literally just does what it says - let you play survivor while the time ticks down on your killer queue like it would have anyway. Dying doesn't get you there any faster - 20 minutes is still 20 minutes.
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Same here. I’d like to at least see what a killer game is like but there’s absolutely no way I’m sitting through a 20+ minute queue no matter how sick of playing survivor I get.
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@TheGoone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3986272#Comment_3986272
You jinxed it your cursed with legions nonstop now
It was because I mentioned not seeing a Legion in another thread too - that's what really strengthened the jinx. If it wasn't RPD and we didn't have a somewhat jukable Nurse we wouldn't have even gotten to the exit gates being powered.
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@tjt85 said:
I got to play a grand total of one Legion game before the servers totally conked out. I was paired with an AFK Billy; 8 hooks 0K if you were wondering. The Survivors were barely even trying and to be honest neither was I.
I think a Nurse could hold their own in a 1 VS 8 if they were skilled enough and I've seen a Huntress streamer do the same. But nevermind that, I guess Legion is really the problem and not these other Killers.
Sorry, but there's no way you guys have played enough 2 Vs 8 games against the nerfed Legion to come to any reasonable opinion on them yet (though I'll admit some of you are at least honest enough to say you don't want them in the mode. There's no point arguing with a hater).
The complaint isn’t that Legion themselves are broken - it’s Legion + another killer that’s broken. You weren’t playing a 2v8 match when you were paired with that AFK Billy - you were in a 1v8. That’s not going to go well for you, or any killer.
Legion is balanced around wounding a lot of people quickly but downing them slower. Of course it’s going to be a pretty strong combo when you put them together with another killer that’s actively playing the game. Especially a Legion/Oni team - something I’ve been fortunate enough to not face yet.
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Not to jinx myself but I haven’t seen any Legions so far in my 2v8 matches - most common have been Weskers for me. I do see how they’d be pretty miserable when paired with a second killer though, especially an Oni.
I was wondering earlier though - are there any reoccurring survivor oriented events? The Halloween one maybe because it gives you more map space? Kind of a meh advantage but it’s the closest I can think of that at least doesn’t give killers something that greatly surpasses it in advantage.
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@ManOMaker said:
Context: I already have every character and perk unlocked, but I have many friends who lost interest in DBD due to the grind and I feel like having shrine have all perks would make it a better experience. However, I have had my ideas shot down by other already experienced people because usually the mindset of "I had to grind so they should too."
we are not crabs in a bucket…
We totally are crabs in a bucket though. We shouldn't be, but we are. :P
My cynical side tells me the reason they don't do this is because they want people to buy characters with real money for their perks. By randomly offering them in the shrine they can SAY you don't need to spend money to get all the perks while making it prohibitively difficult to actually do.
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@tjt85 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3985819#Comment_3985819
Yeah, I'm now watching a streamer that is partied up and it doesn't seem to work for them either. It's a little disappointing but understandable. It's a new feature after all, so there were bound to be issues.
However, I did just reboot my game and I finally got the pop up, so could be worth trying that.
Reboot worked for me too - I'm seeing the fly-out with the play while you wait button now.
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On PC/Steam with an 18 minute estimated time I don't see anything:
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The game is provably killer sided unless anyone would like to challenge BHVR on their released stats that say all killers have a greater than 50% aggregated kill rate. (Though doctor got close at 51%) "Oh but to do that killers have to…" - let me stop you right there. The fact that they CAN means they're stronger than survivors. Arguing that they aren't is directly contradicted by the data.
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I've been noticing the same thing for the past week or so. It's been stuck at a constant 1.25 for survivor even though it very noticeably switches between fast killer queues late night and fast survivor queues morning and afternoon (at least in my region).
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984866#Comment_3984866
The item itself literally has unlimited charges. The fact that trials have a maximum time limit, doesn't change the fact that the item itself has unlimited charges.
Incorrect. Something that doesn't use a charge system can not by definition have charges - limited, or unlimited.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984850#Comment_3984850
The language isn't clearly designed to make something sound big and scary. There have been multiple people in these forums, arguing that fog vials should have unlimited charges. Do you honestly think they are purposely using language that makes "something sound big and scary", when they actually want the infinite charges to happen? That doesn't make sense.
Who was I responding to in my post? Those people you're referencing who I presume totally exist or someone who was using 'unlimited charges' in a way that clearly denotes it as a bad thing?
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984804#Comment_3984804
... I've had this argument before. The game says it has infinite charges. Idc abt the fact that match lengths are finite, you should not be able to use the vial each time you're chased or unhooked. Thats super unbalanced and unfun to vs.
When I'm playing survivor I can only be unhooked twice a match - right now I can literally use it every time I'm unhooked. Are you suggesting 2 charges are unbalanced?
So far as chase goes, unless you're constantly dropping chase and waiting a minute for a survivor's cooldown to cycle it's not going to be that frequent either.
Fog vials are not get out of jail free cards. Maybe it's because I've played this game since before killers had every aura reading perk under the sun handed to them but it's really not that hard to chase survivors down or figure out where they went. Fog vials helped them escape sometimes sure - that's the point. However the number of times I've gotten a down despite the use of a fog vial greatly outnumbers the times someone managed to slip away using one. If they guarantee they get away then that would be unbalanced - but they simply don't.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984831#Comment_3984831
Great!
Whenever you see someone write "unlimited charges" on these forums, pretend they are saying "An item whose activation caries a 60-90 second cooldown". Because that is what they mean. It's what they are referring to.
Why? The language being used is incorrect, clearly designed to make something sound big and scary, and doesn't reflect an item's actual strength or even mechanics. If my statements are going to be pedantically picked apart then I'm afraid that's going to go for everyone. Remember back when YOU were the one complaining about exact language being used?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984812#Comment_3984812
Rewrite the below definition, with as few words as possible:
“An unspecified number of charges, with a relatively short cooldown, where relatively short is currently defined as less than 90 seconds”
Why - did I make an incorrect statement in the post you were responding to? You are ignoring the fact that the words 'unlimited charges' are being used as if to suggest there are no limits to the item at all when in fact there is indeed a cooldown which very much imposes restrictions on the number of times it can be activated in a trial.
If you want to get technical about it, the item had no charges at all - much less unlimited. It was limited by a cooldown but it had no more charges than Unknown's UVX bouncy ball.
So if you want me to type a short phrase describing the old fog vials then this is it:
"An item whose activation caries a 60-90 second cooldown."
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984804#Comment_3984804
The item itself has unlimited charges, because it does not list a finite number of charges on the item.
Then 'Unlimited Charges' is a meaningless phrase that has zero bearing on the power of an item. Do you suppose so many people would be complaining about 'unlimited charges' if the thing had a half hour cooldown but still never showed a number on the user interface?
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It really depends on how slow the slow but closer matched MMR queue was. I wouldn't accept half a match's length worth of wait time just to get into a single match. That's why I've been playing survivor so much this last month - I can't stand the killer queue times. My comfort zone is probably sub-minute wait times.
That said, if I was consistently getting stomped a few matches then my tolerance for the slower match times would probably adjust accordingly.
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@CompetitifDBD said:
Its effects were fine. The infinite charges was a problem tho, but thats been overnerfed to the point where Fog Vials are useless.
It never really had infinite charges - the cooldown placed a limit on how much you could use it in a trial.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3983902#Comment_3983902
This is mainly why I'm pushing for 3 charges, as I feel that would strike a balance between imposing a meaningful limit on uses but also still giving ample opportunities to use the item. I agree 2 feels bad to play with, and also agree that 5 would be too many for the reason you described.
I feel like that's nerfing them for the sake of nerfing them - not because they actually need less than 5 uses a trial. Each use isn't guaranteed to be effective at anything other than making some pretty smoke - not feeling like you need to be protective of your charges is part of what makes it usable (at least to me).
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The problem is the variety of situations the game needs balanced around.
Survivors need a reasonable chance to escape against all killers and all killers need a reasonable chance to kill survivors. As an example, take a Myers and a Kaneki.
- Slow things like gens down or shrink maps for the Myers and Kaneki will steamroll the same teams.
- Speed things like gens up or increase map size for Kaneki and survivors will blow through gens faster than the Myers can keep up.
Basically generators need to be realistically completable in the time it takes a Kaneki or Blight to locate and ping pong between gens and survivors. They also need to take long enough that a Myers or a Trapper have a chance to get downs, hooks, and sacrifices. These are completely opposing goals.
Personally I think reducing the effectiveness of stealth, reducing map size, reducing gen regression capabilities, speeding up gens, introducing hyper-mobile killers, etc. has locked us into a situation where there's immense downward pressure on match times and there's very little room to do anything but be hyper focused on your primary objective when you're playing against an evenly skilled opponent. The whole thing is basically balanced on the point of a needle right now.
I'd personally prefer slightly longer matches that don't require the precision of a Dark Souls game to not snowball for one side but that means adjusting both sides. There are no adjustments you can make to one side without having to also adjust the other - everybody would need to have their ability to progress their objective slowed down. At least with longer matches there are more opportunities to turn things around for either party.
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@PigWithTvs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984318#Comment_3984318
im not talking about the healing, if u wanna heal in game go ahead, im talking about the people who stand there for the whole timer
rub it in? im sorry is it hard to ask for me to feel like i won after a long hard game? is that just not a allowed in a pvp game anymore? and its fine for the other side to rub it in my face but its ilegall for me?
In the month or two I've been back to this game I have not seen a single killer try and give hatch in any of my survivor matches. The finisher mori system has effectively killed that practice already. The abandon system is just putting it in the ground.
agree to disagree, i had plently of killers give me hatch, maybe just a server prefrence or time of playing
Abandoning a match doesn't help the survivor - they lost. It doesn't turn that loss into a win.
finish the line lol.
im not talking about the healing, if u wanna heal in game go ahead, im talking about the people who stand there for the whole timer rub it in? im sorry is it hard to ask for me to feel like i won after a long hard game? is that just not a allowed in a pvp game anymore? and its fine for the other side to rub it in my face but its ilegall for me?
I never said it was fine for survivors to rub it in at the exit gate and I said I don't engage in that behavior. Just so I understand you - are you saying you don't feel like you've won a match unless you can force the last player to watch your finisher animation? Why, if not for the desire to rub it in?
If I have an aggravating match with a group of survivors that I'm almost certain will be furiously tbagging at their opened exit gate I just don't go over or if I'm already there I start hitting them and give them a reason to leave. If I'm not there I go break any unsafe, dropped pallets and breakable walls that are left for bloodpoints or something. If I'm playing killer I can do whatever I want - it's not like they can down me or stop me in any way.
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@PigWithTvs said:
why do some of u even play the game anymore?
i wanna abondon during the animation, i wanna abondon when the killer goes for a 4k
u only wanna abondon because u are losing and can't take the L
but u take your sweeeet time tbagging at the gate or just standing there for reasons? u are not wasting time then right?
i love how bhvr is slowly removing any satisfying aspect from killer but hey me watching the survivors bag at the door because i decided to play nicely so nobody dcs is fine
oh im sure u are saving precious seconds by abandoning , being toxic to the killer in end game chat and leaving because they are playing to win
i love how they added a finisher mori and just removed why anyone would use it lol oh but i watched that mori too many times, well yea i also watched survivors leave from the gate too many times but u don't see me quitting the moment the doors open….
i get it, slugging is boring, but im sorry letting the survivor leave the mili second they get downed? at least make it like 30 seconds or something
what if i wanna give hatch?
i swear there was a timer for a bit in springtrap release along with the afk system but just stayed disable or something
TL:DR let me feel like i actually won, this game is getting stale with the amount of "help" survivors are getting, if u wanna help survivors give them ways to communitcate not vc not allow sore losers to instantly quit as if rage quitting wasn't already a problem
but u take your sweeeet time tbagging at the gate or just standing there for reasons?
u are not wasting time then right?Of course that's wasting time. When I'm playing survivor I might stay if I'm trying to squeeze in a few more altruism bloodpoints by healing someone or letting myself be healed or if I feel like I might need to try and rescue someone but otherwise yeah, I just leave. I don't feel the need to be a sore winner and I don't tbag at the gate.
i love how they added a finisher mori and just removed why anyone would use it lol oh but i watched that mori too many times, well yea i also watched survivors leave from the gate too many times but u don't see me quitting the moment the doors open….
Why does it matter if the survivor has to stay and watch the mori or not? Kind of feels like you're saying it's not satisfying unless you can rub it in.
what if i wanna give hatch?
In the month or two I've been back to this game I have not seen a single killer try and give hatch in any of my survivor matches. The finisher mori system has effectively killed that practice already. The abandon system is just putting it in the ground.
TL:DR let me feel like i actually won, this game is getting stale with the amount of "help" survivors are getting
Abandoning a match doesn't help the survivor - they lost. It doesn't turn that loss into a win.
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Check out 16:14 in your linked video - it looks like it stops working once he has a hook state. My guess is it disabled as soon as he was downed but since it's an edited video that's all we have to go on. I assume it isn't monitoring a survivor's health but instead watching for the loss of a health state to trigger the disable condition which is probably what causes the bug.
If that's the case then it's actually a worse version of Finesse because it disables itself when it would have in the first place and then it can never re-activate again since you don't ever gain a health state. A bug, not kill switch material.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3945398#Comment_3945398
if it's such a problem why not bring unbreakable or exponential and adapt?
That's not adapting, that's spending a perk slot on a guess that something is going to happen.
I'm not opining on the perks or anything, just the thinking that anything that requires clairvoyance can be considered counterplay.
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@MrMori said:
That would just lead to toxicity. Head On should show the aura of the locker you're in when it's ready anyway.
That would be really nice for solo queue.
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@ThatRyanB said:
I totally hear the frustration here and know I personally can't change how these nerfs feel for you, but I do want to make sure the feedback I'm bringing back to the team is as specific as possible and as representative of your experiences in the game as possible. With that, it makes it easier to advocate for changes.
If you don't mind me pulling this back a step to dig into the details, I'd like to ask two specific questions:
1. Of the two recent nerfs to Fog Vials (reduced opacity; max 2 charges), do you feel that one of these in particular pushed the item from feeling viable to feeling like it's not worth using? If so, which was it?
2. If you could make one specific change to Fog Vials that'd push them towards being an item you'd enjoy using, what would it be?
I hear the more general feedback (and rest assured, it's being collected and shared with the team), but if there are specific facets of the recent nerfs that felt most impactful, I want to make sure I'm giving them my particular attention. That, and things that could make Fog Vials feel better for you (like the great suggestions of increasing the total charges a little more).1. Of the two recent nerfs to Fog Vials (reduced opacity; max 2 charges), do you feel that one of these in particular pushed the item from feeling viable to feeling like it's not worth using? If so, which was it?
Both push the item into being not worth it compared to med-kits or toolboxes for me. For the opacity change - scratchmarks, aura, and sound are irrelevant if the killer can just straight up see you. Having charges, especially so few charges, is just going to have me stuck in a state of feeling like it's better to save it for a theoretical better time later.
Med-Kits are guaranteed to give value when you use them to self heal.
Toolboxes are guaranteed to give value when you use them to speed up generator progression.
Fog vials may or may not give value depending on a number of factors - whether the killer was even planning on committing to you, whether you were going to use it preemptively + whether the killer even knew where you were in the first place, whether you have somewhere to run that isn't very obvious as soon as you break line of sight, whether the killer randomly chooses your direction correctly, etc.
So long as the charges are so limited, the situations where it gives value so vague, situational, and occasionally unknowable, and you can see right through it anyway then I'm rarely going to feel like it's the right time to use it. If that's the case, I'm personally better served bringing a med-kit or a toolbox.
It's kind of disappointing because fog vials feel fun to use but with few charges and minimal efficacy I'm just handicapping myself by not bringing something else.
2. If you could make one specific change to Fog Vials that'd push them towards being an item you'd enjoy using, what would it be?
It's not really one change (nor would I even really call it a 'change') but I would revert it to how it was on release and just fix the bugs like not allowing chase to start and it being inconstantly opaque across maps.
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If BHVR were trying to introduce something new and interesting to survivors in hopes of freshening up the experience then they've just drawn attention to how stale it is by yanking it away so quickly. It's frustrating to see the first new, unique survivor item/mechanic introduced in a long while get nerfed into being undesirable within a couple of weeks of it coming out.
I can not imagine escape rates were so affected by the presence of fog vials that the knee jerk, insta-nerfs were called for. The only use I see for myself going forward when I play survivor is if I happened to not bring anything and also happen across one in a chest - at this point it's really only more useful than nothing at all.
In a killer match I had last night I saw the first instance of a fog vial being used since the first batch of nerfs last week. I doubt it's going to be any more prevalent than that. Killer players who exaggerated how hard this was to go against to call for nerfs - congratulations, you got your lobbies full of med-kits and toolboxes back. Happy?
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It doesn't help that the maps are all postage stamp sized now while they keep churning out high mobility killers. I haven't spawned directly in someone's terror radius yet but have spawned with clear line of sight with the killer in the distance a few times and it's rare to not be within their terror radius within the first 10 seconds of a match.
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@PigWithTvs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982043#Comment_3982043
….why the hell do u think franklin's was used to begin with it?
for the "DROPPING THE ITEM IS OP" ?
it was for the charge nobody cared it dropped the item unless the whole play style was an item thief…its pretty obvious from both sides…otherwise if dropping the item was as op as u make it sound nobody would have protested and said DO NOT CHANGE IT in the ptb…. just to get ignored
so..u don't wanna learn to counter franklin's and u don't wanna learn map knowledge just in case the killer has franklin's…?
what is your solution here, just let the killer have no counter play to broken items, because REASONS?
….why the hell do u think franklin's was used to begin with it?
To deprive survivors from being able to use their items.
for the "DROPPING THE ITEM IS OP" ?
I never said it was OP. I have said that dropping an item does cause a survivor to not be able to use that item. They might be able to get it back sure, but until they make that effort, spend that time, and take that risk - they can't use it.
it was for the charge nobody cared it dropped the item unless the whole play style was an item thief…its pretty obvious from both sides…otherwise if dropping the item was as op as u make it sound nobody would have protested and said DO NOT CHANGE IT in the ptb…. just to get ignored
Again, I'm not arguing dropping an item is OP. I'm arguing it's adequate for the purpose of the perk. You also seem to be ignoring all the posts from the PTB that supported this change.
so..u don't wanna learn to counter franklin's and u don't wanna learn map knowledge just in case the killer has franklin's…?
I simply stated your solution isn't a good counter to Franklins. Dropping an item is literally doing HALF of what the old Franklins did for free - there is no arguing against that, it's literally true. Map knowledge is irrelevant - knowing where my item is doesn't get it back into my hands if I manage to break chase. Going back for your item is not risk free. So yes, dropping an item is doing half the work for the killer and you are incorrect in stating otherwise.
what is your solution here, just let the killer have no counter play to broken items, because REASONS?
If you're so afraid of somebody being able to heal themselves with a Med-Kit and you can't be bothered to take even 1 more swing at them to erase all that scary healing then you can run current Franklins. If they drop their item, they can't use their item.
You could also just ignore it like I do in my killer matches. I seem to do just fine myself without caring whether someone brought a big, spooky Med-Kit. Flash lights are more annoying than anything but I'm not so afraid of them that I'm trying to knock them out of my opponent's hands or eat up their charges.
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@BrightWolf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982034#Comment_3982034
I think they're confusing terminology here. In that they're using "drop" to refer to survivors manually placing their items down, and it being knocked out of their hands with Franklins.
The input binding for the Survivor action to place their item on the ground is literally called 'Drop Item'.
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@PigWithTvs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3981995#Comment_3981995
dropping the item makes its lose charge?
what?
are we talking about the same game here?
the whole reason franklin's was hated was not the item dropping but the fact it made it lose charge ???????
yea made me drop my item, woopty doo, im just gonna pick it back up, the whole franklin's thing was the charge lol
dropping the item makes its lose charge?
Sure doesn't. That's why I said HALF the effect for free. HALF.
the whole reason franklin's was hated was not the item dropping but the fact it made it lose charge ???????
Was that the whole reason Franklins was hated? Did you take a poll? How many Survivors responded?
yea made me drop my item, woopty doo, im just gonna pick it back up, the whole franklin's thing was the charge lol
No matter how many killer players say 'oh, dropping your item in some random freaking location is perfectly fine - it doesn't inconvenience you or otherwise prevent you from using the item in any way!' it's simply not going to be true.
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So give them half the effect of Franklins for free. That's your suggested counterplay? Just do it for them.
Right.
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@BrightWolf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3981938#Comment_3981938
Not bringing an item and taking a gamble on chests.
Franklins doesn't work on chest items?
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@tes said:
On other post people told me that FD is toxic and items on survivors never should have counterplay, because if people bring them to the trial, it meant to be used. Same with current conviction btw. They just don’t want counterplay to exist, because how dare u simplifying match while they doing completely the same.
So what's the counterplay to Franklins?
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Does it ever occur to killer players that Med-Kits are there to counterplay how much and how fast killers can dish out damage? Why does everything a survivor brings or does need a counterplay, even if those things are themselves counterplays? How far down the counterplay chain do you want to go?
Ok, say I play a survivor and bring a Med-Kit to compensate for the fact that I'm solo queue, can't call out on comms for a heal, and can't rely on my teammates to be where I want or do what I want to heal me up. Not because they're bad, but because they're not telepaths. I also build for this by bringing Botany Knowledge so I know I can get 1 self heal off from a Med-Kit. I'm already counterplaying all that BS, now you want to counterplay my counterplay by bringing Franklins, hitting me, and ruining my item. Ok, so what's my counterplay to that? Or do we now call it a day once your needs are satisfied?
Additionally, if your complaint is styptics or syringes then those work with 1 charge left so I'm not sure what you think old or new Franklins is going to do any differently from each other there.
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One thing to keep in mind too is they need to get likeness rights if they want to model a character to appear like their live action counterpart. They'd have to negotiate an agreement with the actor as well as the IP holder for the character if you wanted it to look and sound like Jon Bernthal's rendition of Shane.
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I was just getting my daily quests in earlier and had 2 matches - the first one literally every survivor DCed against The Animatronic before I had even found one of them and the second one 2 DCs right after an early sacrifice as The Nightmare. I was kind of wondering if something was up too but 2 games isn't really a big sample size.
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The steps involved in submitting a report that actually does any good is just too much of a pain. I don't record my matches so I need to observe something sus enough to make me think the other player is cheating first, then start recording and hope I catch it again. Then I need to submit a report at the end game screen, zip my footage up to YouTube, and create a support ticket on their support website with my steam id and the id of whoever I'm reporting.
Alternatively I can just ignore it, move on, and let this player be someone else's problem.
Unless someone really aggravates me, I'm just not going to that much trouble.
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I actually don't mind it so much as a generic, filler map. I feel like it has some of the atmosphere of the older maps where things are a bit foggier and darker and you can't seen clear across the map. I don't think it's particularly representative of the IP though - aside from the one unique tile it's mostly just reused map bits.
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@TWiXT said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3980531#Comment_3980531
Fair enough… But to avoid the Dick measuring contest that you are inciting, not to gate keep but I've been playing this since 2016, and have… WAY more hours than you, primarily as killer… does that make my playing for over 60 hours since the release of the patch more meaningful in my experience as a killer main? No. Does it emphasize how much more often I've had against the new Fog Vials? Yes. However, Much of what you say is true, and at the same time horrendously false.
I've played enough that most, if not all of my killer matches, are in the high SBMM range, and let me tell you… those turds NEVER hold back on any of their builds or tactics! The moment they got this "new toy" they made sure to make me, and everyone else at my level HATE IT! Because while we can and often do deal with them with our instincts, when employed on EVERY chase by our target or their teammates, and so often, we even forget what MAP we're on… it gets tiring if not frustrating. Not every team we go up against is 4 player swf, but at my level, more often than not, it's within the 2x2 man, 3x1 man, or 4 man swf's, because a full team of solos is nigh unheard of! Yeah, there are times we come across the rare instance of a 2 man x 2 solo… but that is few and far between.
Look, I'll level with you here. Some of what you've said is right, in that they aren't used to their fullest potential, that I can agree on, BUT once survivors at large get wind of how useful they actually can be, and what HELL they can reap upon the killers… They'll become the most used item overall, even when the devs limit their charge count.
We're talking about 1 item that grants the effects of: Light footed + Poised + Iron Will + Distortion for up to 12 meters and for 12 seconds here. On top of that, survivors literally do NOTHING to recharge it since it recharges every 60 seconds on its own. The thickness of the fog it generates was NEVER the primary issue, to me, the issues were the overbearing noise, and the unlimited, and "unearned" amount of uses.
To put it in perspective, Flashlights, toolboxes, even Flashbangs have limited uses. This makes survivors have to plan when, where, and how to use them to get the greatest benefit. Fog Vials on the other hand, can be used every freaking minute, and due to the loss of perks that could defeat them like Franklin's Demise, or even Overwhelming Presence, The killers have literally NOTHING they can do to counter them in any way.
You're trying your hardest to argue that they don't pose a threat as much as the killer players are saying, and that would be fair considering that they're brand new and no one really understands how impactful they can be, but I counter by saying simply that you're not seeing the bigger picture here.
I've tried to explain it to you, but hell, let the devs decide to go with you, just don't come crying to them when you realize your queue times have gone up because there are less killers playing.
Fair enough… But to avoid the Dick measuring contest that you are inciting, not to gate keep but I've been playing this since 2016, and have… WAY more hours than you, primarily as killer… does that make my playing for over 60 hours since the release of the patch more meaningful in my experience as a killer main? No. Does it emphasize how much more often I've had against the new Fog Vials? Yes. However, Much of what you say is true, and at the same time horrendously false.
Actually I was responding to you treating me like I was only a survivor player and could only offer survivor biased opinions. The only person measuring anything here is you. My screenshot demonstrates I play both sides - not sure why you find that threatening or challenging in some way but you do you.
I've tried to explain it to you, but hell, let the devs decide to go with you, just don't come crying to them when you realize your queue times have gone up because there are less killers playing.
Sounds like you're happy with the 10+ minute killer queue times that have only just just been alleviated with the release of TWD survivors. Don't worry, I'm sure it'll get back to that soon enough because no one wants to play survivor and you'll just be dumbfounded as to why you have to wait so long in queue.
To put it in perspective, Flashlights, toolboxes, even Flashbangs have limited uses. This makes survivors have to plan when, where, and how to use them to get the greatest benefit. Fog Vials on the other hand, can be used every freaking minute, and due to the loss of perks that could defeat them like Franklin's Demise, or even Overwhelming Presence, The killers have literally NOTHING they can do to counter them in any way.
Flashlights and Flashbangs can also be used "every freaking minute". So can toolboxes theoretically, but that's just being pedantic.
You're trying your hardest to argue that they don't pose a threat as much as the killer players are saying, and that would be fair considering that they're brand new and no one really understands how impactful they can be, but I counter by saying simply that you're not seeing the bigger picture here.
Who are these killer players? And are you really going with 'No one understands but I do, just trust me bro' as an argument here? No thank you.
All that said, you're clearly just trolling me. No one is that tilted about fog vials no matter how much of an entrenched, biased, killer main someone is.
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@Wezqu said:
It is unlimited even with the cooldown as it will never runs out. Still there is also no reason it to be unlimited when no other item is and in the end matches are not that long so usage amount makes sense for it. It also makes its usage more tactical and not just "I get into chase I pop this thing if its out of cooldown" as it was mainly used.
Then the biggest reason is just simplicity's sake it makes sense to it to have the same charge system as all items. This will make it easier to understand and makes it also easier to corporate with new perks. Having four different item systems in this game is just not really needed and because this game in the end is meant to be game with finite resources on survivor side an item that is not finite just goes against the basic idea of the items.
My point is that it IS already finite and switching to charges isn't going to reduce the realistic number of times it CAN be used where it has any bearing on the match. I'm not saying it shouldn't be limited, my argument is that it already is.
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@TWiXT said:
Bull-#########!
use is 1 time per 60 seconds. Given that most matches average at 10 minutes, that's a maximum of 10 uses of an item that lasts between 8-12 seconds on their BASE and not Add-on enhanced versions. Multiply that by 4, and you've got a maximum of 40 uses per 10 minute match, each lasting between 8-12 seconds or a total of 320 seconds (5.33 mins) minimum, and 480 seconds (8 Mins) maximum uses in an average 10 minute match! At minimum with everyone using them every time they recharge that is slightly more than HALF of the match duration, and at Maximum, that's everyone using them every minute of the match with 2 mins of downtime! and if they Stagger the usage, wherein the team communicates over comms, and only releases them 1 after another instead of around the same timeframe, they can effectively activate them every time one of them is in a chase with the killer for the ENTIRE match!
D0 you have any idea how playing a killer in a match like either of these scenarios feels? Did you even PLAY killer when they were first released? Hell, Survivors pop them in the begging 11 seconds of a match just to defeat the possibility of Lethal Pursuer, and still have up to 9 more potential uses of them!
Unlimited uses/current recharge rate Has GOT to go. While I sympathize in that the devs have Over Nerfed them this last hotfix, I can't stress enough how much they are 100% correct on nerfing them to be "Limited" use only in the next hotfix. You guys got your new toy, and proved to everyone how much it needs "fine tuning", and yeah, the devs overreacted a bit, but when it comes to limiting their usage frequency, they're moving in the right direction.
Actually yes, I played killer against them quite a bit when they were released. They're easy enough to work around and the panic about how strong they were is in my opinion based on my experience with them, grossly overblown. I found them easy enough to play through most of the time. A few times the survivors were able to evade me which is kind of the whole point of the item. Overall, working as intended. Otherwise it sounds like it might be a skill issue.
Do you know how many matches I ran across more than 2 people running fog vials? Zero.
Do you know the amount of coordination it would take for a 4 man SWF to cycle fog vials in the manor you describe? Why would they bother? That much coordination - why do you need fog vials in the first place?
So long as you are basing your call to nerf something on an unrealistic, never happening outside a custom game scenario then yeah - I'm going to disagree. I actually have more hours on killer than survivor although I do play both so I'm not sure who you think you're talking to when you say "You guys got your new toy, and proved to everyone how much it needs "fine tuning"".
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Honestly it sounds like they're tuned properly.
Crows are theoretically meant to flag survivors who could make a valid play but are choosing not to. It sounds like you might just be trying to weaponize them for a 4K which is not their intent.
You mentioned you were patrolling gens, downing the Jane repeatedly but not hooking her - playing for hatch or trying to avoid you are valid plays there. You mentioned you were letting the Jane on the floor - how was she getting up? Presumably the other player was coming in for a save if it happened more than once, yes?
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@ChaosWam said:
All fog vials needed were charges, imo. This was overkill.
It basically already has charges given it has a cooldown.