LockerLurk
LockerLurk
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3966218#Comment_3966218
One-hundred-thousand percent. 2v8 brings out those really gnarly boyfriend-girlfriend duos. They're really annoying when you stumble upon them in solo, but they're a whole different beast as Killers.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3966233#Comment_3966233
I don't know what to say anymore, so uh… blessed be )O(
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3966235#Comment_3966235
It is PVP, but at its core it's very much a casual game. The game peaks when you have 5 players that don't take the game very seriously and wanna mess around. Custom games with 4 other friends where you pass around Killer has to be a blast.
The issue is that for years now, it's been balanced as if it's a competitive, tourney-level game and it's not nor will it ever be. You can't have a successful nor fair team game with such limited communication and resources for team play; consistent ranking with such heavy RNG (not like ranks exist anyway); or a reliable MMR system with so many variables at play. It's just not that kind of game.
DBD is essentially the spirit of Mario Party, the joy of hide and go seek, and the roster of Fortnite. But it's treated as if it's League or DOTA.
Hello and Blessed Be friend! )O(
I agree the game is definitely a casual game at its core that waaayyyy too many people have decided is competitive, creating a rat race between Devs and the players to make it more competitive. This is why we still have "weak Killers" - they're not actually weak for casual play, they're fine for casual play. Just not comp play.
This game isn't competitive in spirit and never will be. It's too RNG to be truly comp.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3966100#Comment_3966100
It's not abuse. You can private your steam profile, you can turn off chat, you can avoid gates, and most of all you can turn off the game if it's causing you genuine anguish. Every PVP game has smack talk and banter, so every time you decide to get invested in one (especially one as tilted as DBD) you are exposing yourself to that. Again, Survivor deals with all of the same stuff. Are we going to pretend that Cannibal's Claudette mask or Survivors being targeted for pride charms aren't/weren't a thing either? I'd wager those were more harmful overall than getting bagged at the gates. But they're not complained about the same way and likely never will be.
Calling people slurs for their pride charms because the Survivor feels tunnelled isn't abusive? Being told to end yourself because the Survivors are mad they lost isn't abusive? Someone telling me they hope my mother gets cancer and dies because they're salty they lost isn't abusive? Stalking profiles to leave nasty comments or send nasty messages isn't abusive? Being told to go do horribly inappropriate things with a dog because I won a round as a weak Killer isn't abusive? Being called things like "pathetic" and "sad" and "a baby" and "awful" and all these negative words because the Survivors are being sore winners rubbing it in isn't abusive?
It sure is when Killers do it, so why isn't it when Survivors do?
This sort of behavior, from either side, is beyond the pale stuff you would never say to anyone on the street. That's not "smack talk and banter", it's verbal abuse. It's abusive.
This is abuse and the brain reacts like it's abuse. Go read any study on online harassment and what it does to people.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965819#Comment_3965819
A lot of this happens to both sides, but I'd still argue that Killer takes it more to heart. Survivors will always be pissed about diminishing returns when it comes to gameplay, especially post 6.1.0. But I've never seen Survivors complain about endgame chat or being smacked on hook or bled out in the same way that Killers describe the Survivor equivalent of the same behavior.
You really would believe that t-bagging at the gates will trigger an episode, and I've never fully been able to understand why. The stress to perform makes sense, but I really think it's more egocentric. Like every loss, micro or macro, is a mental wound so severe it feels physical. Which sounds really silly to claim, but I genuinely see the same complaints with that level of severity all of the time. Like having a balanced game would be harmful.
Well can you blame Killer for taking it to heart? They're against four other people all saying they suck. That feels really bad, that feels like bullying, that feels like being ganged up on.
If a group of people is saying you suck, you must suck right? That's a logical fallacy of course, but the brain makes that connection. It's a psychological wound that can and does lead to self doubt - and that's what causes that anxiety.
It's a real, real problem, and IDK how we solve it.
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@jedimaster505 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965817#Comment_3965817
The source he used for that 70% stat is very old, from when SWF first released. Using the same stat distribution, you encounter solo Q players in 82% of matches, and 51% of players play solo Q, and 49% of players play in a 2/3/4 stack SWF. It's a misleading claim because it makes it sound like 70% of matches are against 4 stack, which is definitely not true, but killer mains act like it's true.
And surely that means that updated data would show SWFs being more popular than ever, because there are many more players. Your point is moot. Reminder, this doesn't just count 4stacks. It's 3 and 2 stacks as well. Most of these groups are not good, but they are all groups that exist, probably about 70% of the time. Maybe more than that now because again, MANY more players. I know I for one almost always play SWF, that is, with someone else.
There is no "Killer Mains acting like it's true" because the statistics do not lie. It's just true. The majority of Survs probably are playing with at least one other person, because it's fun to play with friends. Whether or not they are good, well…
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965815#Comment_3965815
One night I 4k team that wasnt sef only one duo and one guy from duo had 10 k hours in the game. What killer like ghostface needs is onorganized team if you get team like 3 swf that are constantly revealing you forcing you to be only m1 then your best chance is tunnel one out asap as hard and fast as you can (you will have hight chance if they will try to help each other and dont die if they are swf so tunneling one can help you create preasure). Ghostface is only good if you can 99 survivors and sneak on them to get fast downs or hit and run plus stalk them for later if he is forced to be m1 than he is supper weak and smart teams know that same with dissarming trappers trap (they know he has nothing without traps and he cant fo anything same with ghostface when you reveal him constantly). I had 4k with him against good survivors but xou need stalks on them and good perks to buy you precious time that you loosing when stealthinh around on map corners, he is weakest around last gen or gates when are survivors playing on smaler area.
I'm sorry you got a bad team. Ghostface does indeed struggle against really good teams. However, even if you have a team, it's not likely they'll be GOOD. Just because 70% of games are SWFs doesn't mean they're all GOOD SWFs. Many aren't.
@kosaba11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965819#Comment_3965819
Yep, that's one of the biggest issues with the game. I'm lucky to be on console, as there is not text chat post-match, so regardless of which role I play, I don't have to deal with the usual toxicity that persists in online games. However, I have seen plenty of screenshots of Survivors and Killers being toxic - though most of them have been from Survivors who were either upset at losing or being sore winners. If I had to give a percentage, I'd guess, of the screenshots I've seen, 80% were from Survivors and the other 20% from Killers.
This toxicity, and pressure, definitely lends to a sense of anxiety when playing the game. I personally don't understand the apprehension to the idea of pointing out something that happens to every player at least once. And it's not like it doesn't happen to Survivors, either. I mean, most Survivor players can understand the pressure of trying to not screw up and become a burden to a team, the pressure of trying to loop the Killer, the pressure of trying to escape, etc. So I really don't understand why it's controversial to say that Killers go through something similar, even if the pressure is different.
Frankly I think it's just time to remove the chatbox feature entirely, the good it can cause is outweighed by the sheer toxicity of the bad. And profiles should be hidden by default.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965817#Comment_3965817
They're all saying the game has gotten tougher for Killers and Escapes are easier for Survivors.But there's an alternative explanation to the survivor and killer experience. There are lots of new players (by the standards of the community) who are playing killer. They've probably worked themselves out of the beginner MMRs but aren't nearly as strong as the other killers in the broader, higher MMR ranges.
But these aren't new players saying this. It's long term Killer Mains like Otzdarva and MintSkull. It's even brought in Survivor mains, long term ones, like Scott Jund and Ayrun.
And they are all saying Killer seems to be harder, or Survivor seems to be easier. Now, they don't all agree it IS harder for Killer/easier for Surv, but they are all saying it FEELS that way. If these big names are saying it, then what does that feel like for Average Joe Deebeedee?
What is the explanation for this when BIG NAME creators well out of the softcap or beginner MMR are saying this?
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@Anti051 said:
In the least, there does need to be a recourse on blinds, meaning a full blind should have to wear off completely before another can be applied, that's only fair.
The killer should also become harder to blind if they get the scoring event for avoiding a full blind.
Currently, you can get the scoring event for dodging a badly timed blind at a dropped pallet, but then you're just blinded anyway on the pallet break which is just annoying, what's the point of having that scoring event if you don't get a bit of resistance with it as a reward?
This, the big issue isn't that blinds can't be worked around. The issue is that multiple blinds in a row, especially when the Killer cannot avoid them such as while breaking a pallet, is really really really annoying.
In fact I would compare it to how annoying it is to be a Survivor and working on a gen, see Deadlock block the gen, and then see Grim proc and block the SAME GEN later. Yes, you can technically work around it by going to another gen or waiting it out, but it's still really Fogging annoying to deal with.
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@calem said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965825#Comment_3965825
Except being blinded by a flashlight only stuns you during pick-up animation, not while you're hooking, breaking a pallet, etc. Part of the killer gameplay is looking down and tracking the survivor by sound if you're blinded.
@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965825#Comment_3965825
Stunlocking? The mildest tamest form maybe and even then is a stretch. Stunlocking puts you in a possition you cannot get out of without the source stopping. Once you are able to look away, it's over.
Redefine it however you want. No matter how rare it is, being stunned and then hit with another stun is stunlocking because it locks you into the stun animation.
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The old heal meta is metaing, so people are stockpiling these while BP gains are really high due to Masquerade, yes.
A lot of them bring these anticipating a Kaneki, so when they get anyone else…
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@Mr_K said:
If you can't move then what's the point of not getting chain blind? Worst case you get the full duration once you regain controll.
Because getting stunlocked in games sucks. This is a form of stunlocking.
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@Zuiphrode said:
Install Lightborn, problem solved.
Although eventually the survs will whine it into being nerfed.You should not have to bring a perk to counter something that functionally has no equivalent on the other side and that you otherwise cannot defend against - that being stunned and then blinded while stunned.
You shouldn't have to bring a perk to completely stop something at all, either side, but that's a totally different discussion.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965389#Comment_3965389
Playing blight is different game even Im not that good sith him he isstill oppresive and strong as hell. He can do do many things and feels so fast and fluid playing with him.
The problem is Blight's power has a limit - as you get better and face better people, just running into them at Mach Ten doesn't cut it anymore; people can and do dodge you like a bull in a Toreador Ring. I've done this to MANY Blights, and even Kanekis. That's the big weakness of these dash and micro-based Killers; you make them whiff once and they whiff HARD. If you're just hoping for his power to save you "because it's oppressive and strong as hell" and you never back it up with the rest of your play being good, you will still be stomped nine ways 'til Sunday.
@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965375#Comment_3965375
It's the difference in roles. Killer complaints more often have an emotional slant. It's easier to feel humiliated and to take it personally. As Survivor, you expect to lose often enough that it's not quite the same.
Not that I disagree at all though. I think that's how PVP should be. This expectation that you need several hundred hours to understand the game or that you should be carried/handicapped to maintain stats is BS.
This is true. I think the issue comes when both the game and community themselves though INSISTS that the path to being considered "good" or "winning" is a 4k, all the time, always. And then the game punishes you for doing it too much by slapping you with stronger and stronger opponents that will knock you down a peg regardless of who you play as. Like, guarantee a ton of those Blights and Kanekis you see at high level play aren't actually that good; they're boosted and are probably having a rotten time. Playing a strong Killer doesn't save you from feeling like crap when you get a good team, and never will.
It also, contrary to popular belief, does NOT make it more likely you will win in sequence; those people who pulled off those crazy Blight streaks did it by playing the absolute sweatiest with tons of slowdown or aura. That isn't skilled play of those Killers, that's playing a basic M1 Killer with extra steps and a ton of slowdown. Anyone else who tried that was NOT streaking anywhere near as long, I promise you. The majority of other Killers too during the killstreak fad were hitting 50-100 games in a row even on the weakest Killers and not every Nurse and Blight was ever hitting the 1500+ streaks these streamers were; it was ONLY Nurse and Blight with specific playstyles and builds going on those streaks.
@kosaba11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965375#Comment_3965375
As someone who suffers from clinical anxiety, I can tell you the "Killer anxiety" is not the same as actual anxiety. It's purely the pressure of trying out something new - it won't give you heart palpations or make you suffer random panic attacks, but there is still pressure. Unless you have a horrible time, you won't quit after one or two matches, but that doesn't mean newer players won't feel the expectation to perform good, even if it's your first match.
This goes for any PvP game - when you first start out, you're not yet comfortable with the controls, rules, etc. That's what "Killer anxiety" is for newer players.
And again, for players who've been playing for a while, any new changes will give you a form of anxiety - again, nothing like clinical anxiety, but rather the pressure of the unknown. Players feel this every time a new Killer releases - Survivors don't yet know how to face them, and Killers don't yet know how to play them.
Obviously, not everyone feels this - I typically don't because I watch YouTubers like Spookyloopz and Zet0r, who play the PTB, so I have some sense of knowing what I'm in for each Chapter. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
This is what I'm talking about when I say that the new Killer experience suffers sometimes but nobody seems to care. It's not "anxiety" in the clinical sense, people are not scared of playing Killer. The problem is the pressure to perform and look good without being made fun of if you lose, which let's face it… some Survivor players REALLY like to do. I have had slurs, death wishes, and general horrible treatment thrown at me even if I lose, all because Surv players are generally miserable right now and need to take it out on SOMEONE. It's really that bad. In comparison I can count the number of times a Killer has been a miserable little jerk to my friends and I on one hand. It's a big issue, and it contributes to this anxiety.
That's what bullies do when they feel insecure, they whine and bully to make YOU feel as bad as they do. And often, it hits the least skilled newest players of all. Killer is always a lonely role (unless you're playing an AI Killer or something), so the feeling of several Survs backed up by their friends all mocking YOU specifically for not performing well enough or doing something they deem unfair? Even when you DC out of justified frustration? Even when you simply go stand in the corner and wait, or open the gate for them to leave, or they aren't ACTUALLY mocking you but you feel like they are? Well. It grates. It gets to you after a while. It hurts. You might brush it off or learn to ignore it but the effects are still there, and eventually you just get tired of chasing the same sweaty builds over and over and over and you burn out because it isn't fun anymore. You grow paranoid and soon easily believe ALL Survs are mocking you in secret. And that just isn't a fun feeling.
Because try as some people might to dismiss those feelings in others, even if you don't react… that feeling still hurts a bit. It still gets under your skin and sits in your brain. It's actually psychologically painful and, if actual harassment is involved, even actively harmful. There's actually studies on both ladder anxiety in gaming and how online harassment in gaming can cause psychological effects that can damage a person, this stuff is real.
The other thing that causes this anxiety? The game itself. The game encourages always playing to 3-4k. The game gives increasingly better results in the endscreen for killing more Survivors. The community as a whole has taken 3k+ = win to its logical conclusion and actively blames any player who cannot meet that consistently. But, it isn't always the player's fault if they lose. Sometimes the map is bad, sometimes their perks were outmatched, sometimes the other side was simply BETTER. But the community always seems to infer "lose more = less skill" when these players ask for some reassurance, so of course they feel left out and like they're the problem.
After a while all this pressure to perform and bad experience with Survivors that actually DID mock them for losing, it takes a toll. Some quit. Some play less frequently. Some chase an endless dragon of 4ks they cannot possibly keep forever. If they stay long enough and find their niche they grow out of it. But the fact it occurs AT ALL and then when they go "hey this feels bad" people in the community dogpile them for it? Shameful. Just shameful, no wonder Killer players sometimes doubt their own abilities, grow a perfectionist complex, and play sweaty. Both the game and the community go out of their way to try and scare Killer players off by any means it can.
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@jedimaster505 said:
because Choy put out a video for his killer main audience saying that 70 percent of matches have a SWF, and they all jumped on the copium train
The problem with this theory is it's not just Killer Mains making videos about this. It's people who play both sides, and people who also play majority Survivor commenting on it. They're all saying the game has gotten tougher for Killers and Escapes are easier for Survivors. Some of these are people who have been in the community since 2016 and are well respected.
The other issue is, a SWF is not just a four stack. If you include 2 and 3 stacks, yes, odds are you're probably encountering someone SWFing with one or more friends about 70% of the time.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965157#Comment_3965157
I get you but when you get ghostface against solid swf and get that powerless feeling knowing you cant play stalk and they know they have to force you chase as m1 then ist kinda bad, I was trapper main but playing as someone who just start loosing and even when you set good trap and it works survivors still can their mistake turn at you is just not enjoyable to me I want to have some chance to win and not to tryhard every match.
I just 4ked as Ghostface against "a solid SWF" the other day. That first chase literally doesn't matter when you set up and begin to pressure properly, nor does it matter if the SWF plays predictably as this one did, he isn't Trapper…
EDIT: Y'all can downvote me but it's true. There's a point where you need to stop blaming a Killer for being "too weak" and start blaming yourself for simply not playing them well. Nothing to do with tryharding.
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@DBD2025MakesMeSad said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964912#Comment_3964912
It isn't the rebuilding of a God pallet though is it? It's replacing a God pallet with a party pallet. Party pallets that even when given for free and take no time to build are rubbish.
Don't worry remote hooking and remote pallet breaking will be a perk shortly(probably built in to one petk to make sure you can still have 3 regression perks) and you can say how balanced and fair it is whilst moaning about every weak perk a survivor gets.
A strong pallet placement is still a strong pallet placement, it doesn't matter if the pallet is fragile or not. The fact you can put another one where a strong pallet was is inherently problematic because the placement is strong.
Thankfully, the pallets are fragile and break in one go, and there's a limited number of times Survivors can do this. The perk should not be touched in any way from PTB to live. -
@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965151#Comment_3965151
If a survivor doesn't want me to hook someone else, I just assume that that means that they want me to hook them… repeatedly.
Well, until we get the antitunnel changes…
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965137#Comment_3965137
You think playing top killers will boost your mmr all you need is just play weaker killer and get more than 2 kills and you will start facing much stronger and experiance opponents than before, or there isnt enought players for theese kind of survivors in their mmr so gave will give them someone who isnt on their level, this happened to me many times getting loby thats almost 20k hours isnt good looking and not depresing when I found out Im playing ghostface.
Respectfully I main M1s. I don't really see this effect, mostly because I just don't care how many die as long as someone dies.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965093#Comment_3965093
Introducing things like this is really bad when they're TRYING to do AWAY with slugging. Bringing even more stuff to the game who's only counter is "slug them" is a terrible idea. They've been pretty open that they want to introduce basekit anti-slugging, but they can't really do that with abunch of things in the game to deny hooking.
This is also the issue. You can avoid the stun by slugging, and when the Surv has used it they now are a target for tunnelling because they stunned the Killer. A lot of more immature Killer Players get angry and tunnel when they are stunned.
This is not healthy perk design.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965110#Comment_3965110
Why is it okay for Killer to be double stunned like this?
Because being blinded with a Flashlight is not a stun. You can still move, you can still perform (most) actions. All it does it prevent your ability to see.
Keep in mind that a perk like Hex: Two Can Play CAN do the same to Survivors, since you can double blind Survivors with the perk, and if the argument is "why do you have to bring a perk to double blind Survivors", Survivors have to bring items or perks to even blind to begin with (or invest time to get it out of a chest), let alone double blind… because that's how the game functions.
Flashlights are already the worst item in the game, with Medkits and Toolboxes being significantly stronger, I dont think Flashlights need to be nerfed or changed anymore than they already have, it serves to make builds less diverse and punish creativity.
When are you blinding the Killer?
When they pick up or at a pallet. It's fine at a pallet, but it's significantly more of an issue during pickup, where it does stun the Killer. The Killer cannot dodge a blind during pickup or while breaking a pallet. That's the fundamental issue, if you stun the Killer with a pallet or into a drop, you can stun them again with a blind. That's not really fair.
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@TxQ said:
is it even possible to play the twins when the new DLC comes out?.
imagine the new perk [Conviction] with [power struggle], [Plot Twist], and [Tenacity] or [Soul Guard], or even better… [Smash Hit].
the survivor can use conviction and the moment the killer pick him up the same survivor will get up, stun the killer with smash hit, run to any pallet far from the killer, (the survivor have 30s to do that before they go into Dying State, 30s is a lot of time btw) then recover 15%, if the killer has no mobility like [nemesis, deathslinger, plague… etc] then the killer will take time to catch up and if the killer pick that survivor up he'll get stun with the pallet again.
imagine 4 survivors doing the same thing, the killer can't do anything about it.
https://www.twitch.tv/otzdarva/clip/ElegantPlumpOrcaOSsloth-LhnBzS3DmL2zyFml
I feel like Twins is going to be dead due to this perk. Fortunately I don't slug, only leave the occasional couple second pressure down, so I won't be affected. But I worry for Killers that are heavy on slug pressure - Oni, Myers, Twins, Billy, etc. This perk could easily knock them all down a tier. If that's what it takes to make slugging less common so be it. But there has to be a more elegant solution.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964197#Comment_3964197
Dark times are coming I should start to main blight to be ready.
You can also respond by just… not caring about trying to 4k and just playing to see what happens. If people want to boost themselves by winning until they only have Nurse, Kaneki, Blight, and the other high tiers to play against, let them. What's wrong with staying in a mid level? I never wanna face people who want to play for the Subway Card, I'd rather play against people who don't try to minmax every scrap of fun out of the game… even if I lose doing it.
I know that's not ideal and I wish it wasn't one of the two options here but it's still a choice. Maybe we all need to stop caring about wanting a 4k so bad.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965049#Comment_3965049
It would be great have this as an official forum rule (applies to both sides). The “us vs them” stuff like this makes up a vast majority of the toxicity on the forum. All it does is make people feel like they’re doing something wrong simply because they prefer one role or the other. Keeping that stuff off the forum would make this a far more welcoming and productive place to have real discussions.
Please at least warn for it, it's childish, annoying, and adds nothing.
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@HeroLives said:
I miss the version of Franklin’s that just took off charges per hit. It felt balanced to me.
Like I feel like no regression at all is a bit too far as well as welp the item is just toasted now. Removing charges based on how many times it’s dropped seems fair enough.
IDK why they don't just revert it to that because we're going to a charge based system. Just make it lose 2/3/4 charges and drop it, then make charges standardized across items. Or, make it not remove charges, but apply an inefficiency of 10/15/25% to the item. I don't see how making the perk grant inefficiency as long as the Surv is holding it would be hard to code.
ANY change would be way more fair than gutting it this way.
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@GeneralV said:
Lightborn is basically the best way to deal with it, to be honest.
Yes but you shouldn't need to bring a perk to deal with something this easy to have happen. if I'm chain blinded it's usually from a stun into blind, or a blind as I break a pallet and then blinded again when I look up so I have no chance to avoid it, as I'm animation locked. I think OP wants THAT kind of chain blinding or chain stunning gone, and I agree with it. Survivors can't be stunned twice in succession, why is it okay for Killers to be double stunned like this?
It's also as Reinami points out, an accessibility issue.
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The issue was never his vault, the issue was always that Kaneki Mark pausing your momentum, it just feels bad.
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It'll definitely be niche after a week, issue is for that week it's going to be problematic for some M1 Killers. Stealth Killers, Killers with Range, and Killers who don't care about vaults will not be hit by this. Expect an uptick in like, Pigs and Ghostfaces and Chuckies and Huntresses and Springtraps for a while. It probably doesn't need a nerf despite that. It definitely doesn't need a buff, it's fine for perks to be niche.
If it is nerfed it will be having to spend longer in the Killer's TR I feel like. That is, being more useless.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
I'd love an MMR reset honestly, I don't even know if it does anything tho
I do feel the game could benefit from one atm, especially when the new mmr measuring lands.I haven't heard much about the supposed new MMR measurement stuff, do you know anything more about that? I'm hoping it will account for hooks and chase time or teamwork, not just Kills and Escapes.
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@Mr_K said:
MMR is dynamic so it should self adjust over time. If they did reset it, it would be a disaster.
Problem is, it's not doing this. It's not self adjusting, it's been broken for over a year.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964924#Comment_3964924
I mean, it was, I was there.
It was stuff like MFT/For The People, MFT/Hope, even MFT/Dark Theory that was really egregious. Even as Legion I rarely felt MFT was that detrimental to me. It was strong, sure, but only to the point of being competitive with other Exhaustion perks.
I was also there, and it definitely wasn't fine.
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@DestroyerBG said:
I wonder if the survivors who don't want to be in just give up and sit in a corner like they should. I mean this little problem is not resolved at all its just the sympthoms being supressed for a little bit without resolving the core issue which is survivor being unfun due to teammates being stupid sometimes or the game being already decided the moment one of your teammates makes one tiny mistake
Yet another reason I think MMR should get another partial reset for both sides.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964833#Comment_3964833
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964841#Comment_3964841
Nailed it. Although I will say that Clown being nerfed because of haste doesn't entirely fit BHVR's MO. They make lots of bad changes because of their faulty "consistency" logic, but it rarely applies to both sides. Aura reveals need to be limited on Survivor, not Killer; endgame perks/mechanics need to be limited on Survivor, not Killer; etc. Unless they've shifted their approach, Clown either caught a stray or he was nerfed as a part of them buffing Survivor haste recently.
Also with go next, a surprising amount of Survivors were begging for it too. It was really tone deaf to me that they couldn't understand why players were fatigued or why they deemed a trial unwinnable, while they themselves were playing Survivor. My only guess is that they weren't as invested in the role overall so they didn't really see it.
Honestly I will take my Killer games being a bit tougher because Survs are staying in rounds and actually trying now over my Survivor games sucking hot garbage because people would go "Ewwwww it's a [Killer I dislike]" and DC or go next on hook first thing.
We do now have forced no self unhooking, meaning someone has to come save you or you need a perk/luck offering for it. That alone does give hooks a little more pressure because two Survs at/on hook means two less Survs on gens.
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@kosaba11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964718#Comment_3964718
Yeah, I've see the PTB Feedback. Unfortunately, this is one of the many pitfalls BHVR falls into. There's nothing wrong with BHVR looking to Killer mains for feedback on the Killer experience, but they do often look towards Killer mains for the Survivor experience as well. It's like asking a coyote advice on how to make a chicken coop better protected - yes, you'll get advice, but it'll only benefit the coyote.
Friend, I don't think all of those people are Killer Mains just because they have Killer PFPs. It's more likely most people here play both sides with some relative frequency and it's actually more likely that people who are self-described "Killer Mains" - at least in my experience - also play enough Survivor to know what balance is and isn't for Survivor.
It's people who truly only play one side or the other asking for hard nerfs for the other side, dismissing real balance concerns about either side, or saying things like "Franklin's deserves to be gutted"/"Last Stand needs a buff". At least in my experience.
You should also be aware the person you're quoting is a Survivor Main. They have a Survivor side bias. I'd take them with as much a grain of salt as you take Killer Mains.
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The point we're all making is that Adrenaline was a Win-More perk. It was basically a get out of trial free card against anyone lacking mobility if they lost the round and nobody could tell you had it until the end. So it was a perk you brought into the game, did nothing with, then got free strong value from for doing nothing but get ignored by the Killer. You literally could do nothing for the team, rat all round, and still get value from it, which was unfair to the other four players in the round. It was too much value for too little effort with how it got comboed.
It's the same reason Eruption got nerfed. Too much value, too little effort, too problematic when combined with some perks.
Edit: Come on guys, really? Downvoting me does not make Adrenaline more likely to get unnerfed when it was done for balance purposes.
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I keep saying this about Twins but nobody listens to me because "GRR BUT TWINS STRONK." No, no they're not strong. Their stealth is not that great and their mobility is mid, while their antiloop is the only strong part of their kit. The rest is camping hooks and chaining slugs with Victor, which shouldn't be the basis of what makes a Killer strong, ever. If the only reason your Killer is an A tier Killer is because they're really good at something heinously unfun, that is a badly designed Killer and not actually an A tier Killer.
When we get antislug changes, Twins will crater in strength because they're simply too buggy half the time and too weak at anything besides antiloop. All they really have is antiloop and a little stealth, unless you slug. That's not a strong Killer, that's a mid Killer disguising their flaws with an unfun and boring playstyle nobody enjoys. And that's why Twins' pickrate is so low, too, their strongest playstyle is the most boring (yet it's what their kit encourages) and their bugs make them impossible to enjoy. They suck to play as, they suck to play against, and they glitch out constantly, at this point the whole Killer needs scrapped or to go back to the drawing board. At least make it so Victor can't chain slugs!
But a rework would not work, either. The last rework was such an unfun overpowered disaster, I don't know how you fix this without entirely just completely reworking Twins. Maybe use the form switch system Dracula has and give Victor Chucky's camera, it's clear both Killers have badly powercrept Twins anyway.
It's truly such a shame this unique Killer will never be truly fixable and thus never made fun for most players… more proof that just being a strong Killer means nothing if you aren't also fun to play as.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964912#Comment_3964912
While you're not wrong, it is still worth pointing out that some of these have too many conditions for what they are. Apocalyptic Ingenuity the most, since its conditions are:
- Fragile pallet instead of a real one, so much MUCH less impactful once you've built it
- Two chests for one pallet, needing to be repeated
- Eight seconds of build time
- There needs to have been a pallet broken in that spot first
Some of these are fine, some of them should probably be reigned in, but either way there's a lot that has to go right to get what is an intentionally restrained version of rebuilding resources. I also wouldn't call it subpar necessarily, but it's also misleading to just refer to it as "rebuilding resources" when the resources are noticeably weaker than they were before being rebuilt.
Also it's not really the point but 3% Haste on injure was fine, it was combos that made MFT unbearable. The perk on its own was just pretty good.
I was with you until you said MFT was fine.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964584#Comment_3964584
If people are wasting time rebuilding 12 pallets, that gives you, the killer, more time than both invocations.
That wasn't my point, my point is that rebuilding resources at ALL is something with the potential to be strong against some Killers and does need conditions to limit it. Rebuilding resources is not a "subpar" effect, especially if it's rebuilding of something like a god pallet, which is why it needs to be limited and be a fragile resource that gets rebuilt.
As for "but it's OK because Survivors waste time doing it", everyone said that about the CoH meta too, "it takes time to do boon, what harm does it cause?" Everyone said 3% Haste on injure was fine too and wouldn't be a problem either, until it was. Everyone said another 5% on Pop would be okay and it wasn't according tot he Devs. Just because the effect of a perk is minimal at first blush or takes time to do doesn't mean it can't be used well or won't be problematic later on.
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The perk created unfair scenarios in the endgame with some other perks. Survivor side is not immune from having perks nerfed if they are becoming an issue.
In this case, Adrenaline was overtuned when paired with some other perks, so the Devs balanced it. So it goes…
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I'm sorry but the way the game is designed by the Devs, it's 100% intentional for the game to become tougher for Survivor as people on the team die.
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You can already do this in customs, why would we want a whole game mode for it?
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I miss its old cavalier spirit. I do not miss its old broken things.
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@kosaba11 said:
Well, the abandon option only appears when there's a no-win situation. Technically, you can still win with the Exit Gates open. Really, only Survivors are capable of being put in no-win situations, the Killer still has plenty of options regardless of the state of the match.
The thing is, just because you have options doesn't mean it's fun to do those options.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964641#Comment_3964641
Making a comeback in those circumstances relies entirely on the survivor making mistakes that can be capitalized on. Stuff like your going back for a save isn't the issue, that kind of stuff is completely fine. The issue is that survivors can nope out too fast because they were trying to address the proper reason for implementing the mechanic (4 man slugs) but also threw in almost no restrictions, nor considerations for things that could turn the game around in that state. You know, as a treat.
So one side can leave the moment they are in a check (not even a checkmate) while the other side can't even leave while in a checkmate until after they partake in "The Ritual" or they just wait out the 2-4 minute timer. One side is shielded from BM by the devs, the other isn't. You can come up with whatever what ifs to pidgeonhole the argument, but the design consideration focus is literally not even. And if your opinion is that them being uneven is fine for whatever reason you come up with, that doesn't change the fact it is not equitable nor does it address anyone who has an issue with that specifically. You're welcome to that opinion, but it should be pretty understandable why others would take issue with it.
But even if it was 1%, I can think of lots of scenarios in the game where there is 99% chance the game is lost.Reminder that survivors can still bring offerings and perks which not only can re-enable the ability to 4%, but can even guarantee it under the right circumstances. Or just pick themselves up. They not only have more than a 1% chance of getting back in the game, but can even lead to a full reset. Especially if they're the last survivor and it gives them a chance at hatch/gates in egc. The problem is that a lot of that chance is not basekit, so the survivors are required to invest at least something into their ability to reset a lost game, and that's simply too much to ask. Why even run those perks or bring those offerings when you can just wait for a chance to nope out the second it looks too grim? You wont win, but you will almost never be stuck in a losing match for longer than it takes to either die, or your team to wipe, whichever comes first. There is just no consistency in design, and it feels like people use the asymmetrical nature as an excuse instead of finding a middle ground that actually fixes the issue for both sides.
To be honest, the only reason I even responded, even knowing we probably won't see eye to eye on this, is because you tend to focus on logical consistency. The vast majority of stuff from people like the other guy always centers around wanting something while not wanting others to have it, instead of actual consistency in design. Whether it be disregarding comeback potential specifically for one side, only respecting the time of specifically one side, disabling the ability to BM from an advantageous position VERY specifically for one side, or simply just allowing specifically one side to be allowed to completely ignore taking perks that were designed to give you a chance in a game losing situation to stage a comeback. Its not about what they implemented, it will always be about how.
Also all the dishonest ones are free to downvote this into oblivion. Its not the OP, so it won't bury the topic.
And this is all I and others who ask for this are saying.
Why do Killers have to remain to the end of a checkmate when Survivors can leave if checked, even when there is a way the Survivors could mount a comeback such as a perk in play?
If BHVR will not add this for Killers, at least don't let Survivors abandon when something like Deli or UB is in play until there's not another option. I'm tired of other old players like me gatekeeping this game for people. Just because we had it harder doesn't mean new players should.
I'm not even responding to any of the bad faith people who responded to me anymore. All people are asking for here is some parity. Either everyone can do it or nobody should be able to.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964604#Comment_3964604
Here's the big question nobody is asking: Who would it be hurting to simply let this be a thing? And I have never gotten a good answer for it.It depends: are we talking about a how we would design the game if we could, or are we talking about BHVR's reasons for the abandon and why they held off for so long?
If we're just leaving BHVR out of it and imagining that we can just put things into the game, well then we're talking about the merits of a surrender option. Different people have different feelings on this. There's lots of scenarios where people would surrender if they could, not just open exit gates.
Me, I'd be fine with it, but lots of people feel differently.
If we're comparing it to BHVR's stance, they seem to want abandon's to be limited to extreme circumstances. Maybe because they think expanding it would impact kill rates, maybe their customer research and data shows the 4 minute bleed out timer is much worse and more frequent than the 2 minute EGC, maybe the time it would take to get bots coded for all of the killers would be substantial and they don't think its worth the investment.
If we're talking about hurting, BHVR has to actually code and implement things which takes time, they have metrics they design the game around, and have to balance between a diverse array of players with different desires for the game.
Realistically BHVR will probably eventually add this once we get Killer bots, and like it or lump it all the naysayers will just have to deal with it.
And it still will not ruin their games.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964612#Comment_3964612
It doesn't take a minute to heal in the gates, set up to run in and go save, or do any sort of waiting to see if your friend is coming.
It absolutely does take time. The EGC timer is 2 minutes by default, and it ticks down half that time when someone is hooked or downed, meaning matches can last up to 4 minutes after the gates are opened. I’ve played plenty of matches where the timer’s on its final seconds because of multiple hook trades, close chases, clenching our cheeks trying to get a bigger save.
Failing miserably or succeeding.Those last-minute saves, panic body blocks, and “barely made it out” moments are some of the most intense and rewarding parts of the game. Letting the killer just hit a “quit” button because they don’t feel like it anymore robs us of that payoff and reduces the endgame to nothing.
Imagine motorsport: the person in 2nd place decides to just end the entire race for everyone because they don’t feel like chasing 1st place anymore. That’s poor sportsmanship.
That’s what hookacides were: a refusal to see the match through because it wasn’t going your way.
This isn't the same as slugging. Slugging is like having your car taken from you while your opponent drives donuts around you and FaceTimes your loss. One is giving up on a match and not seeing things through to the end. The other is being denied the chance to compete.
And that's the core difference: quitting is a choice, but it shouldn't be something the game builds around. Gameplay comes first. And with slugging there was no gameplay.
The endgame collapse there is plenty of gameplay still. And its more than 60 second timerIt. Does. Not. Take. One. Minute. To. Heal.
One minute is enough for those last minute clutch plays.
One minute is enough to do most things.
I think you maybe just enjoy the idea of pushing Survs out, and that's fine. Some Killer players don't. Adding an abandon feature that is optional for this situation does nothing to your enjoyment and enhances theirs.
It shouldn't be built around it, but now it is, this is where we are now. Because of that regardless of your feelings, it is fair to allow other reasons for Killers to concede. Forfeits will always be a thing, and always okay, in gaming regardless of how you and others feel about it or not.
Game needs an option for Killers to abandon if Survivors are trying to irritate them on purpose. Period. I don't care who thinks otherwise.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964576#Comment_3964576
Hahahahaha, it is certainly an unpopular opinion, my friend, but it is a necessary role :)
If no one does the gens, the chase-oriented survivors will never escape the trial.
Frankly I also prefer doing gens, but I still think too much gen control either side is a problem. I think it's so problematic I don't even bring some toolboxes anymore, and rarely bring gen perks as Survivor (I confess I like Potential Energy though, it's fun). I just don't think either side should be able to have a strong way to tilt how fast or slow generators move especially. I'm more OK with perks that activate RELATING TO gens, or that block gens. I'm also fine with charge reduction on gens. I just think too much regression/progression on either side isn't healthy for the game at this stage at all.
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Friend, I haven't downvoted you once and you can't tell who has downvoted you on these forums. If you're getting downvotes, it's because people disagree with you or think it's funny to downvote, everyone gets them. I have 1.3k downvotes and 2.3k upvotes right now; votes mean nothing, this isn't Reddit.
I'm just over here trying to have a discussion. Meanwhile, you are a brand new 5 post account that has spent all 5 of your post history here trying to for some reason start an argument with me about gen perks, which objectively do need to be addressed on both sides. The only one crashing out over downvotes and gen perks being badly designed here is you.
But since you keep choosing to come at me to continue arguing, I'm afraid I'll need to formally end the discussion with you. Have a nice day. :)
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@LokiiEU said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964574#Comment_3964574
They shouldn't remove any gen perks regardless of role
And it's not an argument, you're just wrong
I'm afraid you don't get to declare someone wrong just because you disagree with them…
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964604#Comment_3964604
Who would it hurt? The game as a whole. The community as a whole. If there's one thing this community has proven, it's that people are VERY good at finding ways to abuse things, even if you or I can't see how abandoning when exit gates are powered could be abusable right now.
Second, people keep asking for more and more situations in which the abandon option should become available (like this thread proves). As has been said multiple times, the line has to be drawn somewhere. If for whatever reason the devs did this, how many more abandon conditions will people demand?
That ship has sailed by allowing Survivors to abandon, then, and that's why BHVR resisted adding it for so long.
My point stands. One minute in the gates should be all the time Survivors get before the Killer can choose to abandon. This allows endgame plays while also giving the Killer the option to forfeit if the Survivors are behaving like gremlins.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964604#Comment_3964604
So, this being a thing - allowing abandon after a minute or so of the gates being open, let's say - doesn't harm Survs, doesn't harm Killers, and doesn't harm the experience.
As long as there is a hook/down condition to the timer sure. Like if someone is on the hook or downed and the gates are opened, there is no timer. If someone is rehooked or downed the timer resets.
Timer only ticks down if noone is hooked/down
Sounds good to me. Doesnt devalue endgame playThat's why I think one minute is fine. Even when we have a situation with a slug on the ground and a person on hook, Mori and abandon can happen. The Survivor doesn't have to stay in it, neither do, so the abandon option's present. That's less than about a minute.
In my experience, the only reason Survivors ever sit in the gates for longer than a minute is to force the Killer to watch them leave. It doesn't take a minute to heal in the gates, set up to run in and go save, or do any sort of waiting to see if your friend is coming. You only sit in the gates as Survivor for longer than one minute to try and make the Killer force you out, or to make them watch you leave. That's ALWAYS been how it is in the thousands of rounds I've played since 2017.
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Here's the big question nobody is asking: Who would it be hurting to simply let this be a thing? And I have never gotten a good answer for it.
Survivors? Well, no. They're getting the win regardless. They can always get their exit gate thing against someone who wants to play to the end if they so choose, or those challenges could simply be removed.
Killers? Well, no. They're getting to leave if they feel the other side is being a sore winner and will simply not take their W without trying to humiliate them or get their attention and push them out. And if you don't wanna do it, you don't have to do it. It's optional, like the abandon for Survivors is optional. You don't like it? Don't use it.
The experience? Well, no. Game's over, experience is over, what more fun is there to have? There's already an unspoken rule to not go to the gates in the Killer community for a reason - the experience isn't good. Chasing people out doesn't necessarily feel good to do just because you can do it.
The fact is many Killers simply do not want to go to the gates for the same reason many Survivors don't want to wait on the ground in a slug for a 4k. It's boring. Having to force Survs out is boring. It may not be the same exact thing or same exact line, but it's a boring bit of formality when you know you're not going to succeed, in both cases the game is OVER for the side who is in the situation outlined - Survs running out the gate, Killer hunting the last friend while you're on the ground. In both cases it's needless extra time wasted. That's why people want abandon when everyone's in the gate so badly, because people want to move on to the next round without having to waste time when they're just going to leave anyway.
Look, it's like this - it's just not likely unless you run certain perks or certain Killers you're going to catch anyone at the gate. It's more likely you will lose them. It's also really boring to have to run around spamming your power or breaking pallets because Survivors choose to wait until the last second to leave. For a large number of Killer players, once the Survs are in the gates it's basically over, they're gonna leave, unless you have some sort of weird clutch endgame play that happens once in a blue moon ready.
So, this being a thing - allowing abandon after a minute or so of the gates being open, let's say - doesn't harm Survs, doesn't harm Killers, and doesn't harm the experience. So I ask again, to the people who for some baffling reason do not want the ability for those who want it to choose to forfeit when a game feels lost, who would it be hurting to simply let this be a thing?
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Why do people feel like the game is harder for Killer now?
Because when Survivors don't tap out early and actually try, they can win more games than they often think are winnable at first glance. My escape rate has not changed, I am still around that 40%, but my teammates don't quit now so more games feel winnable. Meanwhile, if I get a round where the Survivors actually try and actually coordinate? The 2ks and even 1ks are back despite pulling around a 60% killrate on everyone per usual.
So basically, blame the fact that Survivors cannot give up easily anymore and HAVE to try for why "games feel harder now". They're not actually harder, they're the same as always - it's just that Survivors have to try now, and when Survivors actually try, they actually win because 60/40 under those conditions is actually balanced giving both sides an equal chance to win as long as MMR is close between both sides. That's why you're seeing less 4ks - because you're probably seeing a lot more ties and occasional 1ks.