LockerLurk
LockerLurk
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3963014#Comment_3963014
The Devs want 60/40. They do not want it to be "balancedAgreed. It's unbalanced. That's their intent. OP is arguing that they have the wrong intent (subjective argument) and that those who are arguing it is balanced are wrong (factual argument).
so that Killers always 2k and Survivors always 2 out.Even if the game was a 50% KR we'd still likely be seeing far more of a mix of 4ks and 0ks than 2ks.
And my position is that the OP is incorrect, and most others agree based on the responses here, my friend. I'm not looking to start an argument, just explain my position. The facts are most people agree 60/40 is balanced, the desire to make it 50/50 is imbalanced for the type of game DBD is (we have evidence Killers did not want to play when the game was 50/50, meaning the only time Killer is fun is WITH a slight imbalance - blame the Devs for that), and the Devs do not want it to be a 50/50 balance.
I wonder how different the community would feel on this if from the word go, the balance had been 60/40 and not 50/50… before the 60/40 shift. Would Survivors be okay and just accept it, or would they want a 50/50 balance? Would Killers feel less entitled to 4ks since it's the easy mode? Would the community be better off as a whole?
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3961112#Comment_3961112
It does actually, when dredge is teleporting to a locker the handles of the locker vibrate. So you can literally prerun as soon as he choses that locker to tp to.
This is true, the locker does vibrate when Dredge teleports to it. Some Dredges use the addon Levalier's Microphone to eliminate this by making all the lockers do it, so you can't tell where they are. Fun addon!
Still unsure why OP is so adamant that they have to be correct, people can have different experiences with the game you know… -
@GeneralV said:
Personally, my friend, I define tunneling as a killer targeting one specific survivor until they are dead, to the point where the killer would drop whatever they are doing to chase this survivor again as soon as they got unhooked.
In your match here, I don't think it was tunneling. The survivor gave up, they wanted to leave the match, and even then you went after someone else. Not even the wildest definition of tunneling would include this scenario, imho.
Then it was just Survivor salt I guess… which I still don't understand. That's also how I define tunnelling, and it's something I just will never purposefully do unless you actively irritate me really badly. Same for 4 man slugging (unless deadass given no other option), and same for camping hooks (unless it's endgame and the gate is open and someone is on the hook, then I have nothing else to do).
Maybe they were upset I brought Franklin's to counter their two medkits and toolbox with their heal builds? Maybe they were upset I knew how to play Macro well. I'll never understand it.
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@hermitkermit said:
First off I want to apologize that you had to deal with bigoted comments. That is never okay and I’m sorry you had to deal with such childishness.
Secondly, I personally feel it’s important for terms to have clear definitions. Those definitions don’t change even if x, y, or z happened, but the justification I feel does. For example, my definition of tunneling is if a killer hooks the same player consecutively until death. It doesn’t matter if that player body blocked, if they ran away and were just innocently found, if they stood there under the hook; it doesn’t change the fact that tunneling occurred but it’s not always negative depending upon the reason why it happened.
Like if I got a speeding ticket because my wife is going into labor- it still doesn’t change the fact that I am speeding, regardless if it’s a good reason to speed or not. Someone standing under the hook refusing to leave until hooked to death was still tunneled, but it was also self inflicted.
I understand why it can be very daunting with the upcoming anti-tunnel changes coming because of the fear of weaponizing the anti-tunnel, especially because the AFK Crow system resulted in completely innocent people getting flagged for trying to “go next” despite it not being the case. So I get that some kind of base-line system built in trying to detect tunneling can be alarming in special circumstances like you listed above, when the survivor clearly wanted to go next and therefore wanted to be tunneled.
That’s why I do think that instead of a flat out penalty or punishment for tunneling, better incentives for not tunneling should also be apart of the system. The goal should be that it is no longer in the killers best interest to tunnel, and that can only happen when the unhooked survivor comes with more risk/less value than a different one.
In any case, everyone also has their own definition of tunneling or gen rushing. I asked a question a long time ago if people could define gen rushing and the consensus was basically “it is if I I say it is” which is also used by survivors who claim tunneling as well. Thats why I feel it’s important for a simple definition that doesn’t change regardless of what lead to it, otherwise you get all these complex answers that are really just personal opinions masquerading as fact.
I’m sure that whatever system they put in place for anti-tunnel and anti-slug will be heavily monitored and changes will be swiftly made accordingly if the system is flagging false positives (just like the AFK incident) so try not to stress too much. But I’d encourage you to keep being vocal about your concerns, and questions about this kind of system so that the devs could get that feedback.
I wish you luck in your future games! And I’m sorry you had to deal with such awful humans.
Thanks, I do feel better hearing that. I'm glad most people agree this wouldn't be considered a toxic tunnel, either, at least not in the sense of a purposeful one.
Like, if I HAVE to I'll do it. But it's not like I go outta my way to. I'm so casual I just don't care unless I have to lock in.This team on review of my footage even made several mistakes, such as:
- Poor Looping,
- Poor body blocking,
- Wasted resources,
- A player completely throwing to stand under the hook and give up (they had DS, but did not use it),
- Using fast heal perks and items too early, including healing under hooks against Ghostface (who typically stalks there),
- WASTED SHACK PALLET,
- Didn't understand what to do with a Killer that knows not to chase the good looper at strong tiles (because Ghostface is weak at those),
- 3Genned themselves,
- Were too altruistic at Shack basement, which I could watch from the Main of Ormond Mine, which I had to do because I had one gen left and needed to pressure unhooks (because again, I'm Ghostface and I can stalk for quick downs even if they get to the shack),
- Wasted time healing when I had Franklin's which negated their medkits, instead of popping that last gen,
- Wasted time trying to finish a gen in my face and then loop me before going for a save on their friend when they could have just gone for the save,
I just… don't understand the need for some players to blame their mistakes on the other side. My fear is that the new systems could artificially boost these players or otherwise be weaponized, definitely, which is another reason I think BHVR didn't go through with basekit UB+Tenacity. I'm not against real tools for real tunnels, but when you stand under a hook… -
@PolarBear said:
Both 2v1 and 3v1 situations desperately need to be looked at. This is going to sound unpopular but there needs to be a catch up mechanic for when a survivor dies early to keeps survivors engaged instead of what we have now where the game grinds to a halt and the survivors eventually all die. For me this is the biggest pain point in the game, before it was manageable since you could just die on hook but now that its removed you are forced to stay in the match for several more minutes than before. Complete misery for everyone involved, even as a killer because now if you want an actual interesting match you need to play worse to give the other side a chance.
Unfortunately the only way to make a good catchup mechanic is to make it equal for both sides. This means if the Killer is struggling, gens will grind to a near halt until they start to even the score out, too. But that isn't fun for Survivor, is it? It wouldn't be fun for me as Survivor.
The unfortunate truth is you have to accept that such a game is a loss if the Killer plays hard, which many do because the game tells you to. Chill players on Killer side are few and far between; there is no incentive to be nice and take the 3k or even the 2k. The game doesn't allow for it, and punishes you with less points if you do. The same is true on Survivor side, there is no incentive to befriending the Killer except you dying.
Losing on both sides feels unfun and punishing, more than losing should a loss should only ever feel like an "aww dang, maybe next round" moment and currently it feels like a "no, bad, do better loser".
Besides we have something like this in 2v8. It feels bad there, it is bad there, it's not a fun mechanic and not really the solution you want. I promise it's not.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3962586#Comment_3962586
This is mixing together different issues.
The Devs consider it survival horror, and design it like one.You're saying the game should be unbalanced. It's a subjective opinion, one I agree with though I'll quibble over where the line gets drawn, but its opinion while the fact remains 60/40 is unbalanced.
So to counteract the offcenter fulcrum, because one Survivor versus one Killer is a curbstomp, the Devs gave you, the player, a benefit the Killer doesn't - three other players of your same role. And when played correctly, four Survivors of equal skill to the Killer is in fact the same strength as one Killer, a 50/50 balance even though the killrate is 60/40.But this is something totally different.
If the target KR was 50%, the killer would still be stronger than survivors in a 1v1. Even if the target KR was 25%, killers would still be stronger in a 1v1. I'm not even sure if I've ever seen anyone seriously disagree with that idea.
Survivors getting their strength from numbers is an obvious point that would still be absolutely the same if the KR was 50%. But it has nothing to do with the idea of where to draw the kill rate line.
You can call it mixing issues but all I did was repeat what the Dev's design intent is. Whether or not it's accurate to the game is on them.
The Devs want 60/40. They do not want it to be "balanced" so that Killers always 2k and Survivors always 2 out. So, they didn't design it that way.
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My tierlist is based on relative consistency with them as well as how fun I find them in general.
<3 : Killers I would consider Mains, am currently learning, or find really really really fun to play even if I am losing. I usually do pretty well on these Killers.
- Ghostface: When he works my GOD he really works. Generally enjoy his kit. Typically keep him at a non-sweaty enough level to not get tons of sweatlords. If I lose, no biggie, can always be silly. Usually 3-4k, unless the team is Just That Good.
- Nemesis: Usually 3-4k but am not as consistent at him as others. Hehehe I'm the Kool-aid man,
- Dredge: <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 Perfect mix of strength and fun without being too terribly strong, and has a fair counter. Best cosmetics. Best locker Turkey. I love Dredge. :3 Usually 3-4k with a rare 0-1k.
- Springtrap: I'm not great at him but he's really fun. Again, when he works for me, my GOD he works. Very mixed results.
:D : Killers I do not play much but find very fun when I do play, whether or not I win. I usually do OK on these Killers.
- Pig: Stomp or be stomped, but I can always ask for snoot boop. <3 When she works though, she works. Like to run endgame on her. Mixed results.
- Sadako: Haven't played recently but have fun when I do. I like to go for Condemned Moris if I can. Generally do pretty well as her.
- Dracula: I am not the world's best Dracula but I make do. When I do well as him, it's a massacre, but I usually have fun either way.
:) : Killers I usually have a pretty good time playing as when they work for me, though a string of losses may demotivate me. I am pretty average on these Killers, or generally win as much as I lose, but I don't hate it if I do lose.
- Myers: I play him one specific way - high stealth. He's for fun, I do not always win with him but when I do it's a stomp. Mixed results. People always assume I have Tombstone but I never bring Tombstone.
- Spirit: If I play her seriously I have a great time. Usually pretty fun.
- Oni: I like him but am slowly falling out of love with him due to the flick glitch. May fall to </3 soon. Had fun with him for a while and did pretty decent as him for a while though.
- Pinhead: I either stomp or am stomped, but genuinely like going for chain snipes and chain hits in chase. I find it fun. Get a lot of DCs. Recently, people getting excited to see me as him because he's uncommon now.
- Vecna: I usually have a lot of fun but I am not great at him, it's to do with keeping track of all my spells mid round. Confusing for me. He's alright, I enjoy him but I wouldn't call him a Main or anything.
:| : Killers I neither enjoy nor hate, or only like in theory. I don't really play them but also often find them kinda boring, either too easy to win with or too hard to win with.
- Trapper and Hag are here for the same reason - I don't really like setup Killers much, they take too much time investment. If I want to play someone who needs to set up their power or build their power, I'll just play Nemesis, Myers, Ghostface, or (at a pinch) Sadako. I sometimes play Trapper to be silly and trap the shack or whatever but never seriously.
- Doctor I just feel bad playing as, I know the Survs hate me, I know they're not having fun so I don't have fun. I also find him painfully weak without obnoxious strong builds.
- Bubba, Wesker, and Blight I dislike for the same reason - collision issues with objects in the game messing my dashes up, which is even worse because I use a controller for personal comfort reasons. Bubba is the worst offender of this, though when he does work it's nice. Wesker I find too slippery on controller but the grabbing is cool. Blight I just feel is clunky as a whole, but when I do win I feel bad for it feeling way too easy. They also suffer the same issue in that they make the game really way too easy IMHO when they do work. You mean I can just hit a button and down them quickly? Where is the challenge, the fun? Not much fun for me at all, so I just don't play 'em.
:( : Killers I tried a few times, never do that well with, and never really got the hang of. Got bored after a while, got frustrated with their mechanics, never play as.
- I have never gotten the hang of steering Billy's dash, ever. I just can't make it work.
- Chucky I struggle with how I use such limited stealth and the weird camera angle. He's so short I find it difficult to steer him, so I don't like him much. He's also 110% speed and I hate that.
- Huntress and Clown I don't like for the same reason - their windup to throw. It feels too slow; I just want to press the button and have my power work. Huntress is also 110% speed and I hate it, I feel sluggish as hell. Don't like needing to reload my power either.
- Plague feels unfun without her best addons, and besides I feel kinda like she is another "make Survivors wanna DC" Killer. I don't like playing that way personally. She also feels slow to me and has a long windup which I don't like.
- Singu I could not get the hang of, plus I don't like how Singu's entire power is either "tunnel Survs or hold a 3Gen", that bores me. I also find HUX's kit too complex to use well.
- Unknown, I dunno. I just don't really like it. The projectile is weird and bouncy and it has that unfun windup I don't like. Its teleport is so fast and disorienting, it makes me nauseous.
>:( : Killers I got too frustrated with, never have gotten a win with, got super bored with, or hate the mechanics and playstyle of. Also Killers with too many bugs for me to enjoy properly. I pretty much always 0k.
- Nurse just makes me sad. I feel like there's not much to her kit and I really hate how sloooooowwwww she is, as well as the fatigue mechanic. I don't like having to wait to use my power like that, and I don't like the time limit to use it. It feels clunky. She's too clunky. Not hard to learn, but too clunky.
- Deathslinger and Trickster I hate for the same reason - I suck with long distance ranged Killers. They're also 110% speed and it feels bad, or at least Trickster was when I played him. Either way I find them unfun. Again, I dislike the reload.
- IDK I just find Artist boring, unfun and frustrating to play, everything about her rubs me the wrong way.
- I find Knight boring and clunky, TBH. Too many bugs.
- Twins is always friggin' glitched and when I do get them to work, all I do is play the slug game. I hate the slug game. It's boring. I hate it. Twins is boring as sin. I don't get how anyone enjoys this Killer.
</3 : Killers I played at one point a lot, or who were roster picks in the past, but dropped due to some reason. Also, Killers I wanted to make work and wanted to Main but couldn't, breaking my heart. :'(
- I just moved on from Wraith, he was my first Main but now, other Killers fill the needs he can for me. His playstyle is super basic and you can't do much with it. Mindgames? Ghostface and Pig do it better. Speed? Dredge and Sadako have more mobility. Chase? Nemesis can hit over pallets. Simple mechanics? I mean there's so many other better simple Killers I could play; I'm just not impressed with him anymore. Sorry Wraith, it's not you, it's me.
- I quit playing Legion because I was too good at them. Really. I was so good it made people DC, and it made people cuss me out and abuse me in the endgame chat. I have never had not one positive interaction as Legion. I got tired of feeling like everyone wanted my head on a plate, and with being slapped around when I did lose. I just don't like them anymore.
- I quit Demo because while I liked him, I didn't like having to set up and I didn't like the collision issues with Shred. I just stopped having fun as him while his issues slowly, slowly, slowly grated on me further and further until I got tired of playing the "guard your turf and hit the wall when you try to Shred" game. Sorry Demo, it's not me, it's you.
- I really wanted to love Xeno but my god. I have never played such a clunky Killer. The tail takes ten years to wind up and you'll still miss by a pixel anyway. The turrets feel awful to be hit by, at least as Ghostface I get SOMETHING for being taken out of power (Killer Instinct), for Xeno you get nothing and runner mode takes forever to come back. The fast travel tunnels do nothing if people know not to run. I feel constantly bullied as this Killer and I hate it. I really wanted to like Xeno, I wanted to Main Xeno but it's broken my heart one too many times. Sorry, Xenomorph - it's not you, it's a skill issue.
Never Played: I have no experience on these Killers.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3962693#Comment_3962693
Sorry but wraith is easier than dreadge has better chase and antiloop (with addons ofcourse), can bodyblock to secure a hit, worse mobility to travel across the map but overall better and he isnt effected by map locker spawn rng like coldwind or shelterwoods. His stealth is more better than dreadge in basekit dreadge is stronger than wraith little bit but if we consider perks,addons, how hard is the killer and his power to get some value, map dependence than wraith is stronger than dreadge saddly its truth.
Last thing is its hard to tier killers because different people has different understandings and skill with each individual killers (some like coconut say huntress is stronger than someone who isnt maining her or he playes on higher dpi so for hims are better killers with flicks like blight,oni). Wesker is good killer but like dreadge you must consider times where dreadge was b-tier and wesker hight a-tier all over now new killers came to settle down in tierlist and last killers like dracula,ghoul are realy powerfull, so dreadge is put down by more stronger killers being added, same goes to wesker and plus his kit being nerfed (last was buff recharge for one charge is 5,5 seconds instead of 6 but fully infection is -4% hinder instead of -8% and ifecting rate is slower this makes him weaker in longer chases and slowdow for survivors with giving less priority to get rid of infection asap).
I'm sorry but I am not having an argument with someone who thinks 113% speed is better than instant teleport to any locker.
Have a wonderful evening, friend. :)
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@Mandy said:
Definitely not rigged, definitely exists :)
Mandy, resepectfully, didn't another Dev elsewhere on the forums also say the MMR comes down harder on you if you win too much?
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Why? Broken is meant to be the drawback to very strong effects.
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@TxQ said:
All michonne's perks are powerful and very game-changing, and this perk alone is on a different level of being powerful!
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/4X53D5D4Z33G/897789.png
I see the point in it being possibly used to create lose loses around pallets setting up for pallet saves. However I still feel Conviction is probably fine. Yes someone may use it to get up again by saving it but you'll just be broken a few seconds later when you get up; any Killer with good gamesense will see that and go for you, or simply let you down yourself and then come for you when they hear you scream.
If you really do combo it with Plot Twist, bear in mind that you still only get to use Plot Twist once in the end, and once during the round. That wastes more time and takes you out of the round for a while, since most people in a SWF know you having Plot Twist is intentional and will not waste time healing you because you'll get up with haste anyway. And since Plot Twist is limited to only two uses, but Conviction is ANY TIME you heal someone, it a) counters the Healing meta by giving the Killer down pressure 30 seconds later, b) isn't a constant deal with every down, making it a fair but risky perk with some possible synergy and strong uses.
I really think the concern around Conviction+Plot Twist is very overblown, and won't be useful except in SoloQ, or to prevent slugs for the 4k which some people find annoying (I don't, I really don't care if a Killer wants to slug for a 4k but that's just me). Besides, speaking as someone who plays a LOT of Killer, trust me, a 3k is enough of a win. You can pip with a 3k, you win the game on a 3k. Why are we all so terrified of getting a 3k instead of a 4k, because we want the Mori? Alright, so just hook them and hunt the last one during the Hatch game if you want the Mori so bad, or bring a Mori offering. Problem solved. I do worry it may negatively affect people going for Killer Adepts, since you need to 4k for those - another reason I think those need to be changed to "8 hook as X Killer with their three unique perks" or something.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3962682#Comment_3962682
He is Lowe b-tier if we will measure his overall power and abilities but his kit still has huge gab between to be effective against good teams (dont think I super bad with him, when ther werent many killers some evenings I was getting few evening teams with two players around 4-8K and other two around 2k and still I won overall 2-3k with lot hooks but I seen what players like this can do against him some matches no mather i tried I was getting my first hook around 2 gens left and lockers werent near gens so survivors know where to prerun), I mostly agree with someone like Otz he isnt that opressive and you must try much harder to get what some other get way easier or do better, with second phase he will be in category who will struggle whay more that the better one if they dont add more lockers around map and mostly around gens to get faster to gens and protect them then he will be much worse he is now.
No, Wraith is a low B. Dredge has better mobility than Wraith and better stealth than Wraith, though it's more limited. Dredge is better than Wraith at everything except bodyblocking.
See, this is the problem with letting the community's tierlists do the thinking for you. Otz says Dredge is a C tier, so everyone believes it. Then when you play the Killer you realize the Killer is more mid than a C.
It's also the issue with letting your bias get the better of you. I'm trash at Wesker, does that mean Wesker is suddenly a C tier?
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3962626#Comment_3962626
The cant do it consistently but they can and even some like billy,blight can get the down way faster than dredge thats fact.
My point is I think that it's unhealthy for Killers to be able to instantly rush to Survivors that way at all, never mind who can and cannot do it.
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3962623#Comment_3962623
Only one I see claimund dredge is a-tier or way stronger than people think are dreadge mains. He isnt that good only thing thats solid on him is mobility thats bind to rng factor of map locker spawn (map dependency) and his antiloop easy to counter if your remenant isnt hidden or loop where you using it isnt some medicore or unsafeone, endge of the map then shift+w is brain dead combo that works every time and unlike blight or ghoul you cant catch up that fast if there isnt locker. His nightfall is good to get hit and run and spread map preasure or get faster downs but it depends how your game goes (how many injures you get and hooks,addons and map too indoor is way better than outdoor for getting on survivors easier and for survivors to navigate in the dark). Solid killer but for him to be that good he would need that instant chase or more lockers around gens (like killers that need to reload from lockers huntress,trickster), I think curent freddy is above dreadge why? better teleport (guarantee to get to gens or gates with addon only down is 30 seconds cooldown), his antiloop is much bigger 12% slowdown for 4 seconds with 5 seconds cooldown and ability for zoning and getting some hits even with fake paletts (on map like rpd where most runed loops are with only two palett spawn variations so you always can get zone or hit with dream palett on this kind of loops and dreadge can do is just try to zone and create 50/50 situatuin with higher skill cap and chance to fail if survivor playes that right). Dreadge is interesting killer but I dont see him further that top 20 killers from the bottom maybe even that top 15 he just has good kit as idea but weak antiloop with easy counter, good teleport hindered by map rng and ability(nightfall) that isnt consistent, with all of this he isnt that strong and he is good noobstumper but against some 3k survivor mains with good experience and looping skill he will struggle a lot.
Did I say Dredge was A tier? A tier does not mean good. A tier means very powerful.
Dredge is mid tier, right around a B. They aren't strong, but not weak either. That's the definition of B tier. Dredge is B tier when played well, and I will be the first to admit it. It's delusional to label Dredge as anything else unless you're really that bad at Dredge.You seem really argumentative, is something the matter?
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3961064#Comment_3961064
IDK, there are plenty of killers who are able to be there that fast these days.
- Ghoul
- Lich
- Springtrap
- Nurse
- Blight
Frankly, I don't think those Killers should be able to "be there that fast" either. Period.
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????
Dredge is fine, and since map offerings are gone the only two Issues Dredge has is some maps being weak for it, and some maps needing more lockers. He certainly doesn't need a buff that makes it so he can instantly teleport to a Survivor with Lethal from the word go, I would know, I'm a Dredge Main. Have been since he came to the Fog.
This Killer is not weak. This Killer isn't Bottom 15 either, not even close, and I am baffled that so many creators insist that Dredge is bad now. This Killer is mid - they're still a pretty solid B tier in the right hands with the only counters being looping and the occasional bad map, like pretty much any other M1 Killer. If the Dredge is good with remnants and TPs, they can be a monster - I've won games on even the most difficult maps for Dredge, so even a bad map isn't a death sentence, especially with the right build.
Strength Tierlists are poisonous and have done so much damage to the DBD community because people always take them much too seriously. Newer Killers existing does not actually outmode older Killers, no matter what creators and players think. There is no real such thing as Powercreep in DBD unless you believe you should be winning more than 60% of your games. Every Killer hits around the 60% rank give or take 5%, at every single MMR level, so that should put the nail in the coffin of this "powercreep" idea - a term that was taken from fighting games, which DBD is not - for good.
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@LockerLurk said:
Mine's a little something like this and it's contingent on how they play, how well they play (I want them to play the Killer correctly), and how vibey their mains usually are. If they're based around a particularly unfun playstyle or often run particularly unfun builds on that Killer, it's instantly a tier lower. If I find the Killer's mechanics just generally annoying they tend to also go down a tier.
Felt I should explain my list a bit more.
<3 : Most of these Killers I play to some degree, or just find super fun because their playstyle feels different, engaging, or their players are chill. Ghostface is up there because most of his Mains are cool, nice people in my experience, plus they take the game serious - but never so serious they have to BM. Ghostface Mains are just silly lil guys and I love them - the silly gremlin jesters of the Fog, I cannot stay mad at Ghostface even if one BMs me. :) I love having to dodge short range attacks by the skin of my teeth, so I really enjoy Dracula, Nemmy, Pinhead, and Springtrap for that - none of them feel overly unfair either. In addition, Nemesis, Springtrap, and Pinhead mains in my experience are pretty vibey, or at least are serious without taking the game to ubersweat levels of serious. They clearly do not care they're playing mid-tier Killers, they just wanna have a good time. Dracula Mains are more serious, but also are likely to be chill and really never play unfair in any way. They do sometimes seem a little confused on what form they want to stick to though.
:D : These Killers are usually pretty cool, take the game serious but not too much so, and generally are gentle souls unless you push them too far. They also usually have some pretty fun mechanics that make me play the game a bit different. Some have short range attacks. I love Vecna, Pig, and Sadako for that reason - they make you play the game different and do anything other than just sit on a gen. I like Dredge because it's fun to verse my Main, and I also think Dredges play the right mix of serious and calm. They often try to go for the jumpscare, and I play similar, so I like Dredge. Demo Mains are hilarious and always get goodboi points but I have seen some sweaty ones, too. Pyramid Heads are pretty fair and chill, but will slap you around if you're a little jerk, so I respect them. I find the trails fun to dodge too. Spirit basically plays like an M1 with a short range M2 attack around loops she's so fast, so I enjoy trying to loop her and out-listen her or hide. I must be insufferable to Spirit players…:) : I usually like playing against these Killers unless they're playing That One Build, use That One Strat, or they're sweating super hard. Myers is awesome unless he's Tombstone. Billy, Bubba, and Oni are fun and chill unless they tunnel a lot or slug everyone. Artist and Unknown are usually fine and dandy unless they're really obnoxious about their ranged attacks, tunnel, or run perks that negate their weaknesses - I've had a fair few BMing Artists and Unknowns sadly. Hag is usually pretty chill all around, I just find her more boring than other Killers so she goes here. She's not bad and I don't mind her, I just don't think she's as fun as others.
:| : "This sure is a round of DBD…" I am ambivalent to these Killers. 50/50, they go either way, half are cool people and fun but half are sweaty or toxic and unfun. Or, half of them are very good at DBD and fun, while the other half suck and aren't much fun to verse because of obvious mismatches. Often rely on kinda nasty strats at their worst, but the chill ones are gold. Wraith, Nurse, Huntress, Blight, and Wesker are all cool if they don't play That One Really Toxic Playstyle - hard tunnels, slugging, hitting on hook, proxy camping with range/speed, etc. Xenos either universally suck behind, or they're really good and can be fun. I just have no real strong feelings on Xeno. Singularity is the same - either the Singu sucks, or they're a champion of the Fog and they destroy you without a chance, either way it's not very fun. Also tend to use the cameras to proxy gens, which is miserable if it's a 3gen. Legion is annoying but has no choice not to be, I forgive them, they're about as barebones DBD as you can get. Freddys are either like a more annoying Dredge mixed with a more annoying Legion, or chill. No in between.
:( : Their playstyle is annoying and often their players are salty or toxic. Or, they tend to run the most irritating builds known to man. I have rarely met a kind Knight, Slinger, or Chucky, they're always super obnoxious. They tend to tunnel a lot too, and some even camp hooks. I also dislike Knight's Mori, I don't wanna be ganged up on by four dudes. I just find Trapper's traps VERY annoying; Trapper mains themselves are fine. I swear to God every Doctor alive tries their hardest every round to be as irritating as possible; they're the mosquitoes of the Fog for real.
>:( : I am not enjoying this round - either the Killer usually dominates and we get to have no fun, I can't seem to figure the counter out, they play like a jerk E V E R Y time I face one, or they just have really unfun powers to face. Trickster mains are fine, I just don't like versing a Killer that I can't do anything to loop against or dodge, so all I do with Trickster is rat which isn't very fun. Clowns are universally the most miserable people in the Fog and I'm sure of it. Houndmaster herself is problematic in that she's not really a Killer you can loop, but unlike Knight she's not got a clear enough counter to her dog and I just… I just don't know man. I just don't see her much, I don't know how to play against her, she feels like she gets BS hits with the dog and I hate it. She's fine, her mains are fine, they're not rude or anything, I just don't enjoy playing against her kit.
DCs and Eats Penalty: Self-explanatory. I can, have, and will DC against these Killers and eat the penalty if I am frustrated enough. I will tap out and stand under a hook if I can't. I have no real issue with Skurchent whatsoever and never did since her first nerf - she's only here for memes. Realistically I don't mind her. The others, though… Every Kaneki tunnels I swear, and that QTE Ghoul Mark is awful. I hate that it halts my momentum for ages. I hate that you can't easily avoid it unless you pan your camera like a swivel chair. I hate that he's hard to loop. I hate his speed. I hate that EVERY KANEKI IN THE FOG PLAYS LIKE THE SWEATIEST SWEAT ALIVE. I do not like Kaneki, I do not like versing Kaneki. Not even a bad one. I have never met a Plague that didn't feel like she was playing for the $5 Subway card, and her mechanic simply isn't enjoyable. I genrush as hard as I can against her and if I see ANY sign of toxicity from her, I tap out. Sorry, not doing it. I also really, REALLY hate her Mori. I have never met a Twins that did not slug, camp hooks with Victor, or otherwise play like a jerk, and the issue is that's their kit. That's deadass their kit, that is their playstyle and the only reason they're strong. I swear I have never not once managed to actually kick Victor properly. Their Mains have this "uwu soft" energy but they play like absolute jerks because… well… that's their kit. They also tend to prevent you from attempting to leave the round unless you DC, I have had so many Twins slug me instead of hooking me to die, bleed me out with Victor over me, and camp my hook with Victor. It's like they think they're the moral enforcers of the Fog and I hate it.
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I just rat as much as I can and try to let the strong looper lead him around loops while I grind gens. Same as I do with Trickster.
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The Devs have stated that 60/40 is what they want because if everyone is exactly equal in strength, one person mathematically cannot handle four others, "lil bro" (extremely condescending tone with these words in the title by the way). The game, like it or not, is designed as a survival horror game where teaming up is the strongest thing Survivors can do. Teamwork is meant to counterbalance Killers and get you those wins. Not Survivors being equally strong.
This is for EVERYONE'S benefit, not the Killer's, it's especially for the Survivor's benefit actually. So lets do that, let's look at this in terms of how a 1v4 60/40 split actually benefits Survivors, so you can see the reasoning.
Not all scales have their fulcrum in the center. Overwatch is a game that has scales like this. Bit some have it off to one side, because the other side gets more, which is the issue with DBD. Because that is how an asymmetric game is designed.
The Killer is intended to always be stronger, BHVR designed it like that on purpose, because this game is a survival horror game whether it feels like one to us jaded long term players or not. The Devs consider it survival horror, and design it like one. But survival horror is inherently biased against the one trying to survive, in other words it has that off center fulcrum. This is to ramp up tension and make the player feel a sense of risk, so they might be scared or feel that adrenaline rush of winning.
So to counteract the offcenter fulcrum, because one Survivor versus one Killer is a curbstomp, the Devs gave you, the player, a benefit the Killer doesn't - three other players of your same role. And when played correctly, four Survivors of equal skill to the Killer is in fact the same strength as one Killer, a 50/50 balance even though the killrate is 60/40. In other words, if you constantly team up with three others well enough, you equal together one Killer and probably win/lose as much as one Killer in reality. When you don't or there is a significant downswing in communication, the Killer wins.
The scales are balanced. One Killer weight is as heavy on their light side as four Survivors on their heavier side. The weight is the same. Because that's how an asymmetric game is balanced.
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@CakeIsTheRoad said:
Also, could we maybe get a 5% haste in Night Shroud for Ghost Face? It would be helpful to get around the map, as he feels really slow when you want to sneak up on people.
Please address corn blindness on your map. It's actually unbearable having to deal with a map full of it and not being to stalk unless you are close enough for a grab. This also hurts any short 1st person killer, like Xeno. The map is so unenjoyable because of how corn renders and blocks vision, and considering these killers play close the ground frequently, that's your main view most of the game. Seriously, when I load into a Cornfield match I want to disconnect its that bad.
I think 5% Haste on him is a little much but a 3% would make sense. It felt great in 2v8 to have that extra haste.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3961930#Comment_3961930
Yeah, he is easily the killer I hate most in DBD.
And it is mostly because of how bloated his kit is for a dash killer. A killer whose primary power is movement based cannot have so many things in their kit, otherwise there is very little you can actually do to stop them.
Wesker gets dash, injury on windows, passive slowdown with the infection, killer instinct when you remove the infection, and he can throw you on a random direction which no other killer can do. It is too much, way too much.
That doesn't make him impossible to beat, of course, but it makes him utterly miserable to go against, in my opinion.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3961970#Comment_3961970
LockerLurk!
It is good to see you again, friend!
Our lists are very, very different now that I'm looking at them, but that is the fun part of seeing the different perspectives on each killer.
General, you looks different! How have things been? :)
I'm actually sorta with you on Wesker. He's not that much fun, I think there's other Dash Killers that feel more fun. Also I've run into A LOT of really rude Weskers. It's kinda tainted my opinion of the character.@kosaba11 said:
Most of the Killer are unfun and unfair to face, but I do find Springtrap, Ghostface, Vecna, and Unknown decently fun to face. Haven't gotten to face Houndmaster enough to know how I feel about about her, though she is fun to play.
I mean this very kindly and seriously: If you truly find 95% of the Killer roster unfun and unfair, do you even really enjoy DBD?
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This issue ALSO means Killers will vault, open lockers, etc. when they mean to pick up. It definitely hits both sides. Survivor just feels it and is affected by it way worse.
This has been an issue in the game for years is my point. Maybe let's address it? -
Healing under hooks due to Resurgence is quite strong due to comboing with perks like Babysitter. Syringes still strong, now stronger with buffed Botany allowing faster medkit healing again. Orela's perks exist and can combo with this. Played well, it's very strong especially on anyone who is a mid or lower tier Killer or focuses on injury pressure/hit and run. This isn't quite as bad as the original CoH healing meta, but it certainly echoes of it, and at a certain level of play or against a really coordinated team, you're gonna feel it.
My suggestion? Run Exposed or Injury pressure perks, run stealth Killers that get free hits, run mobility Killers, and run one-hit-down/Exposing Killers. Killers like Myers, Billy, Ghostface, Pig, Pinhead, Oni, Huntress, Springtrap, etc. or run very strong Killers in general like Kaneki or Nurse. Don't run Killers like Wraith or Vecna.
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Thank God, basekit Unbreakable was too much then and would be too much now. We need a more nuanced antislug solution than Basekit UB+Tenacity, which can be too easily used for the unintended purpose of snowballing the Killer too quickly and wasting too much time. Killers don't want to play whackamole, Killers want to chase.
The solution to 4 man slugging and slugs for the 4k is already here. It's the abandon system. If they add onto this, make it so the Survivor can choose to abandon the round if they are slugged for over a minute, since no chase should last longer than that. On some level the team HAS to decide to pick up, or the Killer HAS to move on. If there are no more teammates to pick you up, we have a mechanic for that - the abandon system that comes online whenever the last two are incapacitated.
You're likely never going to fully get rid of slugs for the 4k for the same reason you won't fully get rid of Survs healing in the exit gate - it's just the winning side mopping things up. -
This is an issue on some Killers as well, the number of times I've teleported when I wanted to cancel my remnant because teleport and remnant spawn are the same button is obscene. The number of times I've chosen the wrong Dracula form and lost momentum when I had it because the buttons are similar or mismatched. The number of times I have tried to use a Pinhead chain and canceled because the button was wrong.
In all cases I had to totally remap the controller. Don't get me started on opening lockers or vaulting when I JUST WANNA PICK UP A SURVIVOR NEAR A WINDOW/LOCKER. -
@Poochkips said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/ESGVDZ9HIPW8/my-image-283-29.png
Poor dredge players. It almost makes me want to play as dredge because it seems cool
I exist! Many of us kinda tend to play highly map oppressive which can be very unfun, but we're not monsters. We do tend to lock in very hard. Most of us aren't all that bothered by maps unless it's Coldwind or somewhere very locker poor, which isn't that many maps. Most of us just wanna be spooky. :)
For me personally? I'm a pretty chill Killer overall for everyone I play. I don't even really care if you get hatch or not, I can 1-2k and be happy. As long as you do not hardcore start sweating, I'm pretty nice, and if you treat me with respect (don't teabag at pallets, don't try bully squad tactics), I'm not going to bite your head off or anything. I'll even do a little dance for you. :) If you are being a little nuisance though, I can and will put you in slug time out. Literally just had to do that to an attempted Stun Setup squad on the Game a few days ago.
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Mine's a little something like this and it's contingent on how they play, how well they play (I want them to play the Killer correctly), and how vibey their mains usually are. If they're based around a particularly unfun playstyle or often run particularly unfun builds on that Killer, it's instantly a tier lower. If I find the Killer's mechanics just generally annoying they tend to also go down a tier.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3960310#Comment_3960310
I really don't see why this would be considered "hiding information" or "lying" when the much less concerning and much more understandable "didn't consider it worth speaking on" fits just as well.
This isn't exactly a big pressing issue they need to address, it's just a perk that has been trucking away without being problematic or controversial in any way. With so many other, actually pressing issues, why bother taking the time to vocally state one way or the other about changing Deja Vu back?
Just seems like a waste of effort to me more than it seems like they're actively hiding something by not saying something.
That's kinda my problem, why hide this instead of just telling us they felt it was OK and wanted to keep it?
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@CrossTheSholf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3961004#Comment_3961004
As a killer main its really frustrating to see repeated strings of what seen to be very poorly thought out changes: xenomorph, Artist, and now Knight and Clown, that do the opposite of what the claimed intent was, while also making them overall feel worse to play. It feels out of touch and like the balance team is just looking at stats in a manner of first order thinking instead of going to second order and thinking "why?"
This is also why I feel like Killer Mains generally seem to be very frustrated with the game even when they have an obvious advantage, as we had for two years now. The changes feel like they're done haphazardly based on people who play in a way that isn't coordinated, which may be what the Devs intend the game to be but then there's nothing for Killers to defend against teams who don't play like that. It feels out of touch especially when the perks nerfed for Killer are ones that genuinely aren't high picks and don't cause issues; I can see nerfing the gen perks but why Franklin's, for example?
It also really feels like feedback we DO give about Killers that DO need the help to feel less clunky, is ignored. Multiple times Chucky Mains told you the nerfs felt bad and the devs proceeded. Multiple times Kaneki mains said the Ghoul changes were the incorrect ones to nerf him and made him clunky, and the devs proceeded. Multiple times Ghostface Mains have told the devs that the haste from 2v8 should come to 1v4 in some sort of limited way to give him map pressure, but the devs won't do it for some reason when every other Killer seems to be getting haste lately. And multiple times, Xeno and Sadako and Plague Mains said the chest spawns should not prioritize over Killer items, and that wasn't changed at all until Springtrap came to the Fog solely because a bunch of people came to the game to play Springtrap - that's why it was rolled back, in fact it was even said by the Devs that this spawning issue was intentional when it ruined the game for those Killers and even affected Survivors on some Killers.The Devs always seem to listen to Survivor feedback about things. But it feels like when Killer feedback is given, it falls on deaf ears. When suggestions to make Survivor more fun are given the Devs eventually always seem to add it, but when suggestions to make Killer more fun are given, the changes come never or years down the line. We had to wait 9 months for MFT, a perk we told you from the End Transmission PTB was an issue, and we had to wait 6 years for nerfs to things like Dead Hard, Hope, Adrenaline, and other perks that felt awful to handle as some Killers. The last two years of buffs for Killer felt like breaths of fresh air because it seemed like finally Killer problems and feedbakc were being listened to, but now we're backsliding with changes like the ones to Knight and Clown? Why?
It doesn't inspire confidence. It doesn't make it feel like the Devs play Killer at all. And it genuinely gives the impression that the Devs either don't play their own game (not true) or genuinely believe half of the game - which is so varied that your round outcome and how frustrating it is can depend on what Killer you play, when you play, and the map you get - is too strong because those Killers could play with less frustration than before, up until this patch.
It hurts. It really really hurts us as people who enjoy this game and trusted the Devs. We're not asking for more 4ks or a 100% Killrate here. We're just asking for the game to feel balanced for everyone in the roster, so you can play whatever Killer you wish and still win about 60% of the time. That was what the changes so far led us to believe was the case. Now the Devs are going back on that, it feels like. And that really hurts.
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@Phenomenal_Ox said:
I think still sight has a potential to be strong with shorter activation time it will make mind games harder for killer in certain loops.
Except, ironically, for Stealth Killers, meaning that they have a new advantage and strength - being able to ignore aura reading perks like these. In fact they're the only Killers now that can do this.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3960467#Comment_3960467
On the more fun: that's pretty subjective, some killers really seem to enjoy the jump scare.
On who could use it? Bubba most likely.
I could also see killers who have a more standard chase build using Insidious to catch survivors off guard, kind of like combining balanced landing and deadhard.
With a 133 killer perks it isn't surprising that some of them fall into a limited or off meta role.
It's fine, but like… do we really need Basement Bubba back?
Really? -
@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3960334#Comment_3960334
I dont think you'll find anyone who disagrees with your assessment that baby killers shouldn't be getting experienced opponents, and vice versa. It's a topic that pops up frequently. That, however, is the failure of a matchmaking system that is prioritising queue times over accuracy and is further compounded by factors like lobby dodging.
However, your claim that the game punishes you for doing well contradicts what youre saying here. If the game didn't give you more difficult opponents as your wins increased, then it would have to give you less experienced opponents and we would find ourselves in the very situation that you've also complained about (survivors getting stomped at 5 gens, and killers getting 4 outted quickly) on an even more regular basis.
SBMM is a hot topic and literally everyone I've come across says it needs improvements. But no one expects you to be Otz and co, and in a proper functioning matchmaking system, the chances of you reaching their bracket is probably non-existent. You should cap out (or plateau) at a level that suits you. Hence why i said the majority of us are in the middle pile. We aren't going any higher than that. But in order to plateau youre going to cop some losses too, because if you literally never lose then your opponents are too inexperienced and the matchmaking system is failing them. It's not just about you. Every other player needs a "fair shake" as well.
I still disagree that the game does not punish you for winning too hard, but the rest of your arguments are sound. SBMM needs an overhaul or at least a reset for people.
I'm happy the MMR is intended to cap you at a suitible level at least; if the game is played without sweating too hard it seems to do exactly that at least for Killer. I just wish DBD's actually did that for Survivor, and didn't accidentally throw us a random baby team or hardcore SWF or four slowdown Blight or perkless Trapper. -
@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3960312#Comment_3960312
Either with an insta down killer or a killer with something like Dragon's Grip. Move a little away from the area you think they are going to be coming to (hook/gen), hide and wait, then ambush.
Its an all or nothing type of strategy. If the survivor just decide to do something else you are way behind, but if you guess right you get a really quick down.
That's the issue, who is going to play Killer like that when you could chase, or be aggressive, or do anything more fun?
And of the Killers that do excel in patience and holding still for a bit, they don't need it. Ghostface doesn't need Insidious, Myers doesn't need Insidious, Pig doesn't need Insidous. -
Every single Killer that isn't the top 5 is hit by W Keying.
Just let them W Key until they get hardstuck with Nurse, Blight, Kaneki, Wesker, and Billy every round. If they want to play that way, they deserve to be facing Killers that can handle it.As for Pig, with these changes? She's a genuinely solid low tier pick. She's fine. Let her be OK in her niche, with average players and average teams. If Myers and Ghostface and Doctor and Legion and Hag and Clown aren't a problem, then she surely isn't that offensive…
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No Mither is a meme pick, I think it's fine to give it synergy with other perks that give Broken.
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@myrflexo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3937160#Comment_3937160
Ah yes, the classic stealth killer manifesto — equal parts nostalgia, anecdote, and a healthy dose of "fun is subjective so stop criticizing anything."
Let’s clear this up: no one’s crying about stealth killers existing. The problem is the lack of counterplay when they’re designed around punishing uncoordinated Solo Q teams rather than outplaying skilled opponents. Stealth killers aren't scary because they’re "horror" — they’re frustrating because some of them bypass information and awareness entirely. It's not about fear. It's about fairness. If you need a Survivor to mess up without knowing they were in danger in the first place, you’re not playing smart — you're just banking on disorientation.
And throwing accessibility and motion sickness into the debate like a rhetorical shield? Bold. But it doesn't change the fact that most stealth killers lean on design that benefits from visual inconsistency, not mechanical depth. "Pay more attention" sounds good on paper until you realize there are no consistent audio cues or visual indicators to pay attention to, depending on the killer.
You say stealth killers “don’t have to be strong” — no, they just have to be invisible until it's too late. And if that's your bar for good design, it’s no wonder you think being jump scared in a competitive environment is a feature, not a flaw. Loving stealth killers is fine. Romanticizing their flaws as "variety" while ignoring their exploitative design in Solo Q? That’s just delusion with a Ghostface mask on.
So what is your solution? Why attack me? For someone who says "nobody's crying about stealth Killers" in a thread where you are absolutely crying about stealth Killers, you sure seem to be crying about stealth Killers. You're also calling people "delusional" for no reason, being needlessly aggressive in doing so. Why? What are you trying to prove?
No solid cues they're there? That's just incorrect. Friend, every single Stealth Killer in the game has a noise, a tell, or both. Ghostface's cloak rustles. Myers and Pig have heavy breathing. Chucky laughs a ton. Wraith snarls. Springtrap and Demo make noise coming out of their teleport options and also have very loud footsteps (except Glitchtrap which is an accessibility issue). Sadako isn't fully cloaked and even has a lullaby, plus makes noise while teleporting. Even Dredge makes noise and lights up in Nightfall. All Stealth Killers have a tell.
This is also not a competitive game. It's a party game the community has decided to force into a competitive mold, and has stretched into becoming competitive as an excuse for why MMR exists. You can't claim "but competitive game tho" and call people out for having nostalgia blinders on when that was never on the table for discussion, it's just baiting at this point.
Again, I'm sorry you have issues against these Killers. I struggle to play against ranged Killers, does that mean we should remove ranged Killers from the game? I find antiloop Killers like Kaneki frustrating, does that mean we should remove him? I'm sorry you personally dislike these Killers. I dislike playing against Deathslinger and Plague, strongly, but I still believe they belong in the game and should be part of it. You're over here trashing a whole group of Killers either because you hate them, or you can't handle them, and neither is the fault of those Killers. That's an issue with you, just as me having trouble with Slinger, Plague, ranged Killers, and antiloop Killers is an issue with me. It's okay to just say you don't like Stealth Killers without crapping on the entire Killer class as a whole. If that's what you mean, just say it. Someone will probably agree, just not most people.
Because Stealth Killers are not an issue, never have been an issue, and never will be anything other than a part of this game most people like to some degree or at least tolerate.There's all this clapback towards me and towards others in this thread saying you're wrong, and yet I still don't see any solid, serious argument from you about how these Killers do not belong, are bad game design, or are a problem. I do see opinions (which OK, you're entitled to them), I do see you calling them weak, which is objectively true, and I do see what looks like a lot of kvetching about finding them cheesy or difficult to handle - which is clearly not a thing people believe is true based on the majority of responses to this thread. There just isn't an argument to be had here - Stealth Killers aren't a problem, and they belong in the game.
I'm sorry friend. But you're in the minority. And your thread still looks like trollbait. -
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3960316#Comment_3960316
I mean if you're playing with friends all the time and you're not solo queuing & effectively throwing games with randoms by bringing useless stuff, all the power to you.
How am I throwing if I am having fun?
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@Nazzzak said:
Punishing for winning isn't the right way to look at it. In that case, the alternative would be that you get easier (?) opponents the more you win, and the game wouldn't survive if that were the case. The better players will naturally rise and congregate amongst each other and that is how it should be. The better players together and the worst players together. The majority of us though make up a massive pile in the middle, and as you've said, solo teams tend to be built up with a couple of strong players and a couple of weaker ones. I play both sides and notice it too, there's been a number of discussions on it. That tells me that solo teams are put together based around the killer, and not put together because each survivor is a perfect match for each other. Probably why so much negative feedback from the survivor side revolves around their team mate/s.
The system is in absolute need of improvements, but I dont expect much will change when it comes to upswings and downswings. As survivor, I have more losses than wins, and as killer i have more wins than losses. That's their 60/40 right there.
I disagree, the way MMR is, absolutely does punish you for winning too much. It effectively discourages you from getting better because all you get for improving is more sweaty rounds, and eventually challenges you genuinely can't handle unless you're amazing at the game. Most people aren't Ayrun or Knightlight, most people aren't even Spookyloopz or Otzdarva. Most people aren't top tier Nurse and Blight mains or 4 manning in a SWF Team Six, most people just want their games to be a fair shake and to not be totally stomped with a 4k at 5 gens or a 4 man out after 4 minutes.
And as you touch on here, the real problem with the system we have now is that the best players are absolutely not rising to the top to congregate with the other best players. They're getting completely screwed over by randoms who get lumped in with them somehow, or getting a mix of baby team followed by strong team rinse repeat. Good Survivors are not getting strong Killers that challenge them; good Killers are ONLY ever getting babies or super strong teams meaning they feel they have to play the strongest Killers in the pack all the time. Neither feels fun, both trap these players in MMR Hell - high MMR for Killers who do well, low MMR for Survivors who get shafted by their team. The fundamental issue is that MMR as given here, only cares if you 3-4k or Escape. That's it. There is no measure for how well you play as a team, or how good you are at your Killer's kit, or how well you do at gamesense. This means a good Ghostface can end up facing teams better handled by a Blight and then they cannot escape to a more suitable range for that Killer because MMR doesn't degrade, or a good Survivor could get stomped too hard by a 4-slowdown Plague or Springtrap and end up being stuck in a loop of endless worse Survivor teammates dragging them down into low ranks.
Plus, it makes winning the round seem like the end all be all of the game… and not only is that not remotely true, the game isn't even designed for that level of sweat.
This is why MMR seems screwy. It never counts if you're actually good and skilled, it only cares about how much you win or lose. That, and it breaks when not enough people are online on one role. It needs to be addressed if we truly want a 60/40 split as intended. -
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959243#Comment_3959243
then unless you're an absolute god at chases & macro or you're playing in a 4 stack of like-minded people you are actively & significantly lowering your team's chance to win before the match even begins. if we had an MMR system worth a damn that wouldn't be such a bad thing, but unfortunately we don't, and unfortunately the state of solo survivor is miserable unless you're stoned or a streamer that has chat to talk to.
that's just how it is. i wish they'd actually do something about the current state of killer & map balance so running goofy ######### wasn't so damning compared to meta ######### but instead they're sitting on their hands doing soft handed changes to low tier killers 9 years in so w/e.
Did you misread the part where I said I'm not a player who cares that hard about wins and losses? I don't play in 4 stacks that aren't of similar mind to me. I play with a casual SWF, with friends who bring stuff like Bardic Inspo and Pebble for fun. I'm not a comp Survivor Main, I just want a fun perk or item. To me, this item is fun, therefore it's worth bringing. I wouldn't bring this into SoloQ, because I rarely play SoloQ. And if comp players don't want it, well… medkits and toolboxes are still right there. Bring those. Nobody took them from you, they just added a new thing for casual Survivors to use. That's a good change, because we haven't gotten a new Survivor item in ages.
You are very free to disagree.@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959243#Comment_3959243
off the top of my head:
Sandbag Olympics
The blendettes that got helped get distortion nerfed because they were hiding and not doing gens memeing.
flashbang locker buildsStevegull
The amount of people that won’t touch gens and stand around just waiting on saves
All the bards
Last minute switching characters just to match the rest of the group theme in lobby.
plot twistExactly. Now we can add this to the list. :)
@Yippiekiyah said:
It'll go the same way as maps and keys, nobody will use it not because it's not useful but because medkits and toolboxes are ridiculously overtuned.
I don't think medkits are overtuned, I do think syringes could use a look again. I DO think some toolboxes could stand to be brought in line, mostly Commodious and its variants. There's enough perks, you shouldn't be able to do a quarter of a gen faster any more than you should be able to remove an entire quarter of gen progress.
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@calem said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959206#Comment_3959206
I think undetectable until first down is actually too strong in the hands of the better killers. Imagine versing Nurse/Blight with Lethal who can injure everyone while undetectable, and THEN start downing survivors. I think a more reasonable version would be undetectable until first injury, so stronger killers like Blight don't get free undetectable while rushing around injuring everyone but weaker killers like Clown, Pig, or Trapper will likely have it longer until they score their first injury.
I see your point but like… a 2 second buff is nothing. Insidious needs a better rework than this. There's still no reason to stand in one spot as a Killer, who is going to use this perk? Myers? Trapper? I guess you can use it at corners around tiles but why?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959146#Comment_3959146
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959168#Comment_3959168
It's not as though the perk's causing any problems, so I imagine it just ended up being not a priority to change it back. I wouldn't if I were in their shoes- it'd just be making a good healthy perk weaker for no reason.
My issue isn't that the perk is unhealthy, it's not.
My issue is that BHVR said one thing, meant another, and hid that they weren't changing it back from us while we all believed they would. If they are willing to hide the Deja Vu thing from us, what else are they hiding? How can we trust the Devs if they lie about reverting a change once another change happens? -
@Leo said:
At this point in the game's life, it is absolutely unacceptable for retired add-ons to just be rendered unusable in our inventories. It is especially egregious in this case since map and key add-ons have been the #1 culprit of bloat in Bloodwebs since the game's release.
There already is a system for converting add-ons into other add-ons. Use it. The retired add-ons should either be converted into the new add-ons for their items, or they should be converted into add-ons for the fog vial. In the case of maps, you could even convert them into the new rarity of maps. Just anything but making them unusable.
Just on Orela alone, I have 22 Scratched Pearls, 41 Gold Tokens, 9 Milky Glasses, 12 Weaved Rings, 21 Yellow Wires, 51 Black Silk Cords, 57 Odd Stamps, and 20 Crystal Beads. That is 755,750 wasted Bloodpoints on the newest Survivor alone, and I only have her at Prestige 9. As a reminder, there are 46 Survivors in this game. If we assume all of those Survivors have a similar amount of those add-ons, then that's an estimated 34,764,500 Bloodpoints worth of add-ons about to be rendered unusable. This of course only accounts for my spending habits, for players with more investment in their Survivors then the cost is even worse. For frequent players, these add-ons being retired is absolute robbery.
Plus, think what impression this is going to give to new players. They're going to see things that they've earned through progression just taken away with no compensation. They've just seen the conversion mechanic used to turn the old shrouds into the new ones, but now stuff is just being taken back out behind the barn? What's the reason to care about anything you get in the Bloodweb if it can just be taken from you, and you don't get anything back?
Do not let this go to live like this.
I strongly agree with this. Let us convert our useless retired addons and offerings and items into bloodpoints or Shards, then this change would be fine.
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@jedimaster505 said:
Okay so some killer buffs/survivor nerfs and some killer nerfs/survivor buffs as usual.
Take a deep breath, killer mains. I know some changes make your heart beat faster but always bear this in mind: BHVR forces you to win more than you lose by design. I'm unaware of any other PVP dev that holds one sides hand this hard. It's easy to get caught up in the smaller details and forget the bigger picture that you are still the devs favorite child
The problem isn't "you win more than lose so these changes are fine."
The problem is some of these changes make the game needlessly more frustrating for some Killers. -
OK, full thoughts on this. Gonna be long.
Rick Perks:
- Apocalyptic Ingenuity: Awesome, I've been wanting fragile pallets to come to the main game forever. This perk may not be useful but it's a fun idea, I'll definitely use this. Fun perk.
- Come and Get Me!: I think this perk is fine, it's a decent team protection perk that makes YOU the target at a cost. Dangerous against the wrong Killer, and a good way to incentivize hook spreading. If you're a good looper you will get good use of this perk, I do think 24m is a little far-reaching I would rather see it be on Survivors closer, like 20-16m. That way you can use it as a hook protection perk. Could pair with perks like MoM and be kinda fun! Great with hook save builds. Good niche perk.
- Teamwork - Toughen Up: Nobody uses teamwork perks, this will not be used - stop trying to make fetch happen. It's a cute idea, but it really has to be paired with something like Last Stand to work well. Not a fan. Reconsider or buff.
Michonne Perks:
- Conviction: What is the point of this perk? The downside is too severe, the fact you become Broken and then go down later anyway just makes you easy pickings for any Killer that pays attention. What's the point of this? I don't even see how it's useful with Plot Twist because you'll just go down 20 seconds later ANYWAY but without the benefits of Plot Twist, why would I not just bring Plot Twist or even Unbreakable over this? It seems like it lacks any real synergy. Not sure this perk is worth it. Risky gambit. Not worth bringing unless you get slugged a lot.
- Last Stand: Very bad idea, BHVR. Only good for bully squads in its current form, as written this perk only is useful if you rat for 60 seconds near a Killer, then come rushing in from nowhere to suddenly stun the Killer simply for playing the game as normal because they are chasing a teammate. In that way, it's the old Background Player problem all over again, except closer and you gotta stay in the Terror Radius. We do not need more perks that embolden bully squads against newer Killer players and we do not need a perk that encourages tunnelling the user like this. It should really have just been vault-based DS, and should have actually been a perk that works as your "last stand", that is, on second hook to save yourself or if you're being tunnelled. It badly needs to be based on being second hook or on if you're being tunnelled. Then it's fine and actually, I'd say very healthy. Rework. Heavily.
- Teamwork - Throw Down: Once again, nobody likes using Teamwork perks, stop trying to make fetch happen. Second, this is yet another Endurance perk, and this one gives it to anyone nearby? Why? There weren't enough endurance perks? Once again, this perk will just be used to bully squad and can be comboed in some very nasty ways against new players. It really only hurts baby Killers or weaker Killers for no good reason; there is no other reason to use this perk. Doesn't work on stealth Killers that can hide their aura or have one shot downs (So Ghosties, Pigs, Wraiths, Myers would be OK if they're just smart about their powers), but I worry for the really weak ones that can't do much about it. Your baby Legions, baby Trappers, baby Doctors, Baby Hags. Problematic for that reason, should be reconsidered - either remove the endurance or remove the aura read on Killer. Monitor this perk.
Executioner Changes:
- A pretty nice buff to Pyramid Head. Not a Pyramid Main, can't say, but seems like a buff for some drawback. Probably OK. The addon upgrades were BADLY. NEEDED. Very good range on him now, concerned it may make him too strong even. Monitor these changes.
Clown Changes:
- RIP Clown Mains, he's a D tier now if these changes go through. DOCTOR would have better antiloop, hell even the Stealth Killers have better antiloop due to mindgaming than this. He was never intended to be a chasedown Killer, and he's now a chasedown M1 Killer that has lost his strong loop denial in exchange for a chase power that Survivors can ALSO use to boost themselves with their own perks? Ouch. You will never see a Kenneth in the Fog again. Please strongly reconsider these changes.
Pig Changes:
- LESGOOOOO THEY ACTUALLY BUFFED HER. End of story. Solidly a high C now, I think she probably is about in the Ghostface-Myers range now if not a little stronger. Addon updates seem OK, now I would say she has actual OK antiloop and some mobility. Certainly not B tier, but definitely in a good spot. Really truly feels like she needs no more adjustments. Great changes!
Knight Changes:
- This is rough. Knight was already a very low B tier, now with this he's a C tier if these changes go live. Poor Tarvhos didn't deserve all this. The point of Knight was his antiloop, not his AI partners, now he's got weaker antiloop. Why have them be there for less time in exchange for faster spawning and having them go longer distance? Are they trying to make him have some kind of weak mapwide mobility? Addon changes seem pointless too. Sorry, Knight Mains. At least he is still somewhat functional? Reconsider these changes, if only for the Knight Mains.
Oni changes:
- FINALLY, he has a turn rate and can flick again. I can play him again, he felt so damn stiff. We back, boys. Good change.
Fog Vials:
- Genuinely OK but also a genuine accessibility issue. That Iri addon for it cannot go live for that reason alone. Apparently the haze won't be as bad as 2v8 or Haunted, so that's OK. Affects higher tier Killers more, and doesn't really harm stealthy Killers or M1s unless they don't pay attention. Reconsider that iri addon, it's an accessibility nightmare for HoH/Deaf players. Poor Spirit and Drac Mains... Looks like fun for the Survs though, and I'm happy to see it's multiple use. Anything that makes Survivors choose something besides medkits and toolboxes is A-OK with me. Ambivalent, but monitor in case anything weird happens.
Key Rework:
- Much healthier and more interesting, perfect if you like to chest goblin, great in that it no longer allows wallhacks on Killers, and gives chests a use - so it's something else for Survivors to DO if they bring a key. Has synergy with some builds. Has a tactical purpose now. Charge-based for multiple uses, great! BROKEN KEY HAS A USE. Blood Amber nerf is very, VERY justified and still does what it's intended. Will be bringing Keys more often now. Great change.
Map Rework:
- Now a portable, limited WoO, good for newer Survs and not too problematic to handle as Killer anyway. Charge based feels much more fair as a compromise. No longer can be abused to just... show everyone or even show the gen jockey where everything is, a problem because it rendered hex builds on Killer moot and could be too strong against Killers that lack strong map pressure. Frankly they work like how WoO SHOULD work IMHO. Bloodsense map got a much deserved nerf. Crimson Stamp seems like a bad idea, but it's very range and charge limited so I don't think it's gonna be an issue. Addons change the way maps work, making them more interesting. Good change for newer Survivors and SoloQ, but probably won't cause maps to be used more. I certainly won't need them.
Killer Perk Changes:
- Insidious: Not what the perk needed, nobody will use it. Rework and do something else with this perk, it's still useless. Pointless sidegrade.
- Hubris: Funny, but not sure it's enough. It's very fun to punish stuns though. Sidegrade.
- Dragon's Grip: Same reason, good for punishing people who return to gens, but still not much use. Sidegrade.
- Scourge Hook - Hangman's Trick: OK maybe this makes it a bit more useful now. Not sure it will help. Sidegrade?
- Overwhelming Presence: VERY good rework and necessary to combat the item meta, and exhaustion perks as a whole. Might actually have use on Killers that hide their Aura now, making it a worthwhile pick. Good change.
- Franklin's Demise: Wait, so now it only works with Weave Attunement and that's it? People used it to combat items, not to reveal auras... I don't think this change is a good one. I understand why it had to change but like... Franklin's was always just used to troll. Not sure it needed this, just to not work with Weave. Probably not the right change to this perk, monitor or reconsider.
Survivor Perks:
- Potential Energy: I love PE, and think this is a much fairer change - tradeoff of 1% progression, but there is no waiting. Sidegrade, fine.
- Any Means Necessary: Not sure this will make people use it, especially because resource denial is a key part of Killer. Still a useless perk. Pointless change.
- Better Together: Much needed for SoloQ. Good change.
- Still Sight: Actually makes the perk sorta useful now. Good change.
- Built to Last: Frankly could become a problem with the item meta, but nice for Survs anyway. Devs should monitor this perk for any issues.
- Appraisal: Great, but still won't make people pick it. I guess if you like looting builds. I do! I think they can be fun. 🙂Fun perk change.
- Streetwise: ... Kinda makes sense for the perk? Still fits Nea's character. Not sure the aura is worth it for 8 seconds, but will get me to use it. Chest thing is a very cool concept and works with other perks. I really like this rework! I guess they really want Survs on chests... Great change IMHO!
- Detective's Hunch: This never needed a buff, it was already pretty good. Devs will have to monitor and maybe consider just leaving the perk alone except for removing its ability to add objects to maps.
- Deja Vu: I guess it's fine? Nobody uses this perk unless they wanna be hyperefficient on gens anyway. Still unsure why the "temporary gen progression buff" was kept permanent but BHVR never said they were keeping it that way, feels disingenuous. I don't have a problem with the perk, I do have a problem with BHVR changing a perk, saying it's a "temporary change" they will revert eventually, and then just never telling us they won't be changing it back. It's ok to keep this perk this way, but tell us when you keep changes like this, don't keep us in the dark wondering, it makes you look untrustworthy. If you hide this sort of change, what else are you hiding? Pointless change otherwise.
Hook change:
- Good, I would like to not have to hang around as either side when the game is decided as Killer win. Now make it so when the game is decided for Survivor win, the Killer has the ability to abandon. No more waiting for people to leave if Survivors do not have to sit and watch a hook animation. Great change.
Presets:
- MORE PRESETS THANK YOU. I want more than three builds and cosmetic sets to swap between. I have so many! Great change!
Customs:
- All good here, no complaints. Good changes.
New Map - Forgotten Realm:
- Yet again an indoor-outdoor map that should have just been an indoors map. Why do you keep doing this? First Nostromo Wreckage, then Fazbear's Pizza and now this? Why are the devs so scared to add more indoor maps? Because there's Killers that struggle on them? Well tough cookies, there's more Killers that struggle on outdoor maps, why not make it equal and give us options? We haven't had a cool indoors map since RPD, give us something else interesting and give Stealth and M1 Killers a break for once. In addition this map is probably too big. Why do we insist on the double pallets, Devs, nobody likes them. And wow, Withered Isles again, they REALLY wanna bury Garden of Joy for good so that nobody ever gets that map again, don't they? Good. Throw GoJ in the trash where it belongs, no map should ever be that sided to one side ever. Now do the same with Haddonfield and everyone will be happy. Devs should monitor this map and adjust it as needed.
All in all… kind of a mediocre patch with some good and some bad, and for some reason completely slaughters two Killers but has a kinda crappy map and adds some potentially problematic perks to Survivor? Meh…
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959222#Comment_3959222
you're missing the point. the point is unless the smoke vial has like a 40-60 second cooldown (so you can use it every chase) and/or it consistently really trips up even the good killer players playing the best killers (in which case cue the (probably warranted) complaining and inevitable nerfs) it's not going to be worth running over other options if you care about actually having a decent chance at winning.
it's not that facing bad killers is fun, it's that not getting any value whatsoever out of an item you brought (especially when you could've brought another item that would've actually been beneficial) isn't fun. and smoke vial is one of those things that's, by design, going to be insanely powerful or completely useless. we'll see what it ends up being.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959219#Comment_3959219
sure but dying or indirectly causing your teammates to die because you didn't choose the optimal thing (which has been heavily encouraged ever since 6.1.0, especially in solo queue) still sucks even if you want to be mr optimist^tm. like please try to tell me with a straight face that you prefer losing over winning.
Friend, I'm casual enough to not care about how often I win or lose on either side. Nobody's bringing stuff like party starters and the fog vials to play optimally. The fun of those rounds is to see what you get away with, not win. It's no different than bringing a flashlight instead.
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Very well written, the MMR needs to be loosened up and it needs to allow a better decay. Why punish us for winning?
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@[Deleted User] said:
no because the game is in the 99% figured out stage of its lifecycle and there is almost 0 room for fun unless you're matched up with a particularly bad player, and the potential value you get from a smoke bomb is nothing compared to the near-guaranteed macro value you can get out of a medkit
That's well and good.
Not everyone plays DBD with competitiveness in mind. -
Friend, being able to defend hooks is part of Killer gameplay, it's 100% intentional to have contests for unhooks. The real purpose of the anticamp wasn't to halt any and all forms of defending a hook, but to halt facecamping, which was the real issue. There was never any good reason to do this and it always felt bad to be on the receiving end of.
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Frankly I want to see Insidious grant Undetectable at the start of the round until first down, or do something for chase or on generator pop maybe. Nobody uses this perk because there's no reason to stand still too long as Killer.
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Ghostface: Add 3% Haste while in Night Shroud undetectable.
That's it that's all. -
It's really nice for the weaker Killers in the roster but I don't think with how aggressive Survivors are playing it's all that bad. It even takes some time to remote hook now; it's not instant so you can get saves. I have. I actually have gotten lots of value from Quiet Mode and I think pallet hit validation must be wonky, because I've somehow managed to get stuns with the party pallets this time around. Not sure why they nerfed vault blocking so much though.