LockerLurk
LockerLurk
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What's wrong with letting this low A to mid B tier Killer hide in his doors? Dredge can briefly hide in its lockers. Ghostface gets free undetectable on demand. Sadako can hear someone on a TV or see the aura of a TV and instantly port to it. Pig can crouch not far from a Hook and ambush you. Myers can proxy stalk hooks, as can Ghostface. Nobody is complaining about any of these Killers, so why complain about Springtrap? I don't see why you'd even want to nerf this Springtrap trick; it's not even that common… maybe don't hang around the doors too long?
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I think it's a fine change and probably healthier than just using WoO all the time, plus it might convince people to bring something other than a toolbox or a medkit to stack with their generator and healing perks. Genrushing is currently quite high because Survivors are staying in games longer, and coordinating together more. There's also currently another healing meta thanks to buffed Botany (which never needed it) and Orela's perks.
I would much much rather see these new maps, keys, and the new fog grenades in a lobby than yet more toolboxes and medkits, which are likely to have BNP+Spool on a Commodious or have a syringe they can stack alongside their Orela perks and Botany Knowledge. Right now everyone is running these, and it feels obscenely, obscenely sweaty from Killer side.
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Why? So that you can set up the perfect builds to counter the Killers that these players are known to main? Doesn't that seem a bit unfair to you?
Stalking profiles is gross and weird when Killers do it to find out who is low hours and thus a target. Stalking profiles is toxic when used by Killers to find TTVers.
It doesn't become less gross or less toxic if we allowed Survivors to do it. Nobody should be able to do this. -
@CrypticGirl said:
Finally, someone gets it! Though I'm not sure how much I agree with the Killer side, though. They already have all the basekit catchup mechanics, and endgame builds which can be highly oppressive. So it's way easier for them to come back from a bad start as opposed to Survivors.
I agree that something should be done about it, though I'm not sure what.
Killer really does not have any basekit "catchup mechanics" if they miss that first chase. Bloodlust is the only one, and not every Killer even uses it effectively or cares about it. There has not been any basekit catchup mechanics added for Killer since Bloodlust became a thing, it's all been tweaking maps, tweaking gen kick, tweaking offerings, and tweaking Killer powers. Killers did get crows spawning sooner to punish forever-rats though which is nice, and did get set Survivor spawns. That's it, two, three things maybe. Neither are basekit catchup.
Meanwhile, Survivors have a basekit Borrowed Time, basekit progress gens faster together on one gen, and just got buffs to several perks and items. They also have a basekit antigrief in the abandon feature (given to both sides but activates more often on Survivor), have basekit anti facecamp, basekit lose collision for 10 seconds if boxed into a corner, AND will be getting basekit antislug and antitunnel.
Don't get me wrong, all of those things were necessary to add for improvement of the game. But it doesn't seem right Killers do not have basekit stuff to help them catch up when say… they are a low mobility Killer and frankly cannot control how three gens may pop in the first chase, they have to bring perks or be a very strong Killer pick for that - someone with lots of mobility, a lot of speed, or both. -
Fine with most of these changes and always happy to see Survivor side get something, anything new to play with. But I'm concerned that none of the perks you mention buffing have to do with actually helping deal with the current healing meta, or with how efficient Survivors currently are on generators. Any plans to address this?
And also, when are you adding Night Shroud Haste to Ghostface? It's time. It was a hit in 2v8. People had fun with it. It would give him much needed map mobility and would make him feel really nice to play. It doesn't need to be high, just 2-3% would do. Why not add it? You buffed Legion after their 2v8 debut with some of what they got from 2v8, it's time to buff Ghostface too. -
He's 110% speed with the axe and his axe is not meant to be carried around forever like a Huntress axe. it's meant to be recalled, thrown, and played with as a dual purpose AOE tool AND an anti-loop tool.
I would say that means he's probably fine where he is.
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Why are Survivors allowed to spawn directly in front of a generator? Same reason.
The spawn logic is kinda messed up. I feel like something might be a little buggy in the code. -
The Go Next system makes Survivors become salty and play more competitively to just get out of the round against Killers they hate, which stresses Killers out. Killers tunnel and use sweaty tactics to try and handle that level of pressure, or because they themselves are annoyed by comp games every round. Killrates drop, people feel like they aren't even having fun as Killer, Lower Tier Killers get the shaft again instead of the buffs they desperately need so you never see them. MORE ragequits happen but now insult is added to injury. And nobody is happy.
The killrates as they were, were clearly based around balancing for someone possibly quitting. I don't think BHVR intended it to be that way, but that's what happened. And all that, and Killers still cannot leave these aggressively unfun, sweaty rounds when they lose 4 gens in under 2 minutes because the Survivors have no choice but to play efficiently anymore to get the round over with, without getting a DC penalty.
Either Survivor side is too strong under these conditions and needs a nerf, a SERIOUS nerf to things like generator perks and certain items (which isn't ideal or fun for anyone), or Killers need SERIOUS buffs that address the real issues with each Killer and some basekit features to protect against losing multiple gens on the first down or being simply unable to catch these extra efficient Survivors who are just trying to play the game normally. That, or Going Next needs to be allowed without people being so heavily punished for simply not wanting to play sweaty rounds.
And even with all of that… it was still a good idea to add it. It needed to be added. It just badly, badly, BADLY needs some serious tweaking to feel more truly casual minded. Because right now, it doesn't. -
Of course, for the same reason I would take Flashbang or a Winter Party Starter.
It fun. c:
It wasn't that strong in Haunted. It wasn't that strong in 2v8. It's been confirmed to be toned down and so won't be as strong here. Genuinely fine and if it gets Survivors to bring anything else besides toolboxes all the time, I'm for it. -
Does anyone else remember that Deja Vu's gen speed boost was meant to be temporary until the 3gen fix came?
The 3gen fix has been here for a year. Deja Vu did not lose its gen progression bonus.
Mandy, please explain why? I don't care if you want to give Survivors another perk to help with gens, that's fine, but… why has it not been changed back if it was temporary? Why not tell us if you were keeping it? I don't like this hiding of info. -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3937421#Comment_3937421
If survivors were leveraging an imbalance that builds bad habits, it would be against their best interests.
The specifics of how these things function is relevant. If survivors rely on what I'd call genrushing - stacked toolboxes with accompanying perks - then I'd say yeah, they're probably on borrowed time there, pun not intended. BHVR have been ramping up taking care of imbalances like that, toolboxes are inevitably going to get some kind of changes sometime.
If survivors are just splitting up and being generally efficient on generators, though, that's not as clear of an imbalance and there's no reason to assume it'll get dedicated changes (outside of the one on this PTB, anyway, that was always the outlier here). There's no reason that would apply to this logic.
Same for killer, by the way. If you're just efficiently playing your objective by juggling survivors and spreading pressure, there's no reason to assume that's going to stop working for you. If you tunnel someone out as your main tactic, you're both going to build bad habits and become reliant on that tactic, and also be left twisting in the wind when tunnelling gets nerfed.
This is all true, the Devs are not going to remove playing efficiently. Sometimes that means someone is out first even when nobody got hard tunnelled because the Killer chased efficiently, or a lot of gens pop even if nobody brought stacked toolboxes because Survivors spread out on gens.
We have something coming for antitunnel to stop hardcore tunnelling out from the word go, and changes to spawn rules to help prevent too much early gen pressure by spreading out. Both are annoying and both needed addessing.
I have no doubt toolboxes will eventually be looked at either, especially if certain ones keep proving to be used as stacked out items to push games super fast before the Killer has time to even get any chase pressure.The fact is neither side should have to feel like they HAVE to play the most efficient at all times to win.
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@CountOfTheFog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3937887#Comment_3937887
So, this morning I was playing Freddy on Midwich against a good team. I had only got two hooks before the final generator popped.
I hooked Kate in the middle of the courtyard and the survivors kept messing up the save.
I eventually had Kate hanging on 2nd hook with 2 slugs and chased the healthy one out the gate.
Then, all 3 abandoned. You're telling me that 3k I got doesn't count as a win for me? That's wild 😆
Yes, and that's why Survivors abandoning like this are being changed in the PTB and the live game soon. Because it can force a Killer to not gain progress towards Grades or challenges they should have gotten. Or, to gain MMR, if they care about that.
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Ghostface with haste in Night Shroud felt amazing… I miss it every day.
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The Blood Generators were a great idea but they really needed to be tweaked. They moved way way way too fast. They should have five pistons, and they should definitely interact with gen perks and Killer powers. I hope next iteration we see improvements on these gens, and something a lot more useful and interesting for Killer than just kicking over blood canisters.
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@Kweh said:
Just play Ghoul or Wesker with vault perks/addons. Fixed.
No. I don't want to play those Killers, I want to play Dredge, Nemesis, Ghostface, Springtrap, and Sadako. This window needs to not screw those Killers over, it needs to be addressed, that Ballpit can and does sometimes spawn a God Pallet in that room. Add a breakable door nearby at least! A God Pallet should not be able to spawn into a friggin' God Window and then into some decently strong filler tiles and loops from there like this, come on now.
@GeneralV said:
Well, survivors do need to have resources, they can't be left helpless. Having stronger resources in the game is a good idea to combat the more oppressive anti-loop killers and the wave of generic dash killers.
And most players are used to handling stronger windows with M1 killers from back in the day. I think it will be fine.
Why are people downvoting you? You're right. I'm a Killer Main and even I understand Survivors have to have something against me to defend themselves! I do think that these stronger windows are still lightly problematic and should be addressed though… Survivors need resources, but no loop should feel totally safe against a Killer just because they're not super mobile.
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@Blizer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3937357#Comment_3937357
I agree with a couple things, but also:
Isnt he a 110% with the axe and a 115% when hes thrown it? he isnt 105% (hes 4.4, and 4.6 without the axe).
I do think hes gonna be really reliant on his add-ons (specifcally Foxy's hook and Celebrate Poster) to end chases quicker if need be (combine it with unbound, and yeah, it feels rough to deal with)
His Doors i agree with, bad RNG spawns can ######### him, he can grab party streamers and Bonnies Guitar strings to counter-act his weaker doors, and make them much more potent, but it leaves the axe with very little.
I acknowledge your point of the Axe grab (and something like ripped curtain and office phone) making tunneling scary.
His biggest weakness to me is that hes REALLY reliant on his Add-ons and how good the player is at playing him, i think a bad springtrap will get mauled, while a good one can maul survivors quickly. His add-ons allow him to branch out into alot of different builds and can be viable i think, but you do sacrifice either his mobility or anti-loop to compensate for it.
A Case of too many-good Add-ons that really make him better, but only two slots hinders him quite a bit in strength (which you can argue is good design, not making him oppresive in both mobility and anti-loop, and making killers either building for one or the other, going for both can help (Party Streamers, Foxy's Hook/Celebrate Poster).
BHVR will likely release a patch this or next week, and we will see some changes based on what they got info wise, but i think its fair to say hes one of the more balanced killers they have launched on the PTB, though the argument is if hes on the stronger or weaker side of things on their end.
We'll have to see. I think even released in this state he'd be fine - not EVERY Killer has to be an A tier, they just have to be fun and feel good to use for people who like them. If he ends up a C tier that's fine, but I think he'll settle around a mid to low B. He is balanced so far, if weak in a few spots, and you're right, it depends on who plays him… and that's great! That actually feels like most B to C tiers, they often need you to be decent at Killer to use them well. Perfect! More like this BHVR, less like Launch Kaneki and PTB Houndmaster. Fun is always better than just trying to always make a new super strong Killer…
I think you're right, he's addon dependent and some of his power as stated does encourage tunnelling. The axe itself just does not feel very strong. I think it's fine to have a Killer that is addon dependent though - Myers is also all about his addons. I just think some of them could use some changes to discourage playing Five Gens at Tunneltrap's.
Good catch, you're right, I double checked - 110% speed carrying axe, then 115% with no axe.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3937411#Comment_3937411
I shouldn't need to explain the difference between people wasting your time, and tunneling. You can't really equate the two. One is inherently toxic and being done deliberately to get under a person's skin, and the other is, in a nutshell, rushing your objective.
When killers would 4-man slug and bleed all the survivors out while humpteching them, where was the sympathy then? Non-existent. Survivors were constantly told that if they got 4-man slugged then it was their own fault for playing badly. It's not just killers who get a lack of sympathy.
Bad manners isn't a bannable offense. Before the endgame collapse, survivors would waste the killer's time. They'd gloat. They'd do their victory laps. Tbag at the exit. Repeatedly fast vault. Fast enter/exit lockers. If you didn't force them out, you basically just waited until they got bored. Then they'd taunt you in the chat.
Endgame collapse was added specifically to deal with that problem. I've played both sides. I've played dbd for years. I've repeatedly been on the receiving end of toxic behaviour. I've been bodyblocked into a corner by a teammate. I've been held hostage by a killer. I've been abused in private messages on console. I've been slugged and bled out at 5 gens. I've been taunted at the exit gates by survivors. I've been taunted by survivors after every pallet drop. I once had survivors waste an entire 10 minutes with the gates open just doing their victory laps.
I know all too well how it feels, but there's not really anything that can be done. It's not against the rules. The only possible solutions I can think of are shortening the endgame collapse timer, and making end game chat opt-in rather than opt-out. Neither of these solve the problem, but then it's not exactly like bhvr can just flip a switch and eradicate toxicity.
Toxic is toxic is toxic, and the Devs could do plenty to discourage it, they did for bad Killer behavior. They just won't.
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@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3937350#Comment_3937350
That's the thing! The text of the update seems to say that the mori can be done on a healthy survivor if there is one other survivor left and on the struggle hook phase. I think that has to be a typo :)
I think it has to be because that's not how it seems to work on the PTB, I'd report this issue in the PTB bug channel?
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3937334#Comment_3937334
I'm not condoning the behaviour, but what are you accomplishing by getting mad about it? It's a waste of time and energy. Sure, it sucks. Sure, it feels bad. Ultimately, though, you're powerless to stop it. The only thing you can really control is how you react to it.
Because if enough people say SOMETHING, maybe something will get done.By your logic we shouldn't complain about tunnelling and slugging either because "you're powerless to stop it and the only thing you can control is your reaction to it." But the difference is, THAT issue is now so problematic and so hated the Devs are doing something about it when playing Survivor.
But when playing Killer? Zero zilch nada nothing for similarly frustrating issues that feel equally as bad. That's it that's the whole problem. And THAT is why people complain, because it feels like the devs do not care about your experience when you play Killer, only when you play Survivor.
See, it's really simple to say "but just stop caring!" The problem is… you still care. Even if you try to brush off the annoyance, on some level, you do still care. Why? Because your game was ruined and you didn't have fun. The human brain is hardwired to remember negative experiences better than positive ones, this is neurological fact. So of course, the sting of being defeated and then having it rubbed in your face is more vivid than the excited feeling of a win. You may say you're blowing it off. You might be mature enough to know it doesn't matter and you should move on to the next round.
But on some level, you do in fact care because it hurts to be treated like that… and after dealing with it a lot, or many times in a row, or just constantly seeing it from one side of this game you enjoy but not the other, seeing less of it when you play one side but not the other? It builds up, gets even more frustrating, and causes you to burn out and just not want to play the game anymore.
And that's the issue. Survivors have an anti burnout feature and the Devs keep working to add more anti grief and anti burnout. But there's utterly no consideration for the Killer side of this experience for people playing both sides, and when people ask about it for Killer side? They get told unhelpful and unsympathetic things lie "ignore them and just push them out." But you shouldn't have to force bullies to stop bullying, and you shouldn't need to go sit in a corner and ignore people trying to make you have a bad time, because those actions simply should not be possible.
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I have a few concerns about Springtrap and after some testing, I am not convinced he settles into the low A to high B range that everyone seems to say he does. Let's look at this seriously:
- The hatchet: First off, okay, this is cool and fun, and being able to instant grab people if you catch up and they can't get the hatchet out in time is nifty. But what about a single use hatchet that takes several seconds to respawn is better in any way to any Killer with a short range M2 like Unknown, Xenomorph, Dracula, Nemesis, etc.? How is that better than a ranged Killer like Huntress, who has more than one axe and can just down people in a couple hits with it anyway? It seems weaker than advertised. Very weak easily counterable antiloop.
- The instant grab on the hatchet: People don't like it when Myers does this with Tombstone (since it leads to a Mori). They're going to get similarly annoyed when Springtrap does it as it's a guaranteed grab. Yes, it's cool and all, but in the long term Survivors will get sick of dealing with this. It's also going to lead to an increase in tunnelling with this Killer because Springtraps who are good with the hatchet will use it to, likely, tunnel people off the hook, bloodlust them, and grab them again. This could get very nasty with haste perks. Please reconsider this mechanic's fun and fairness factor, and how easily it can be used to tunnel like this.
- The teleport with the doors: This is slower than some other Killers like Dredge and Sadako. It's also more easily disrupted than those Killers, with the drawback that like Sadako's TVs, it's influenced by chest spawn offerings. That's really unfair to this Killer, and doesn't feel good to be hit by. The doors are supposed to spawn by generators, but with the right offering they can spawn uselessly far away. That completely nerfs this Killer's map pressure. A Killer's power should not be able to be pre-countered with an offering this way.
- Grabbing from a door a Survivor is on: This is similar to Dredge and fine, but my problem is what is keeping Survivors from finding a way to run around disabling doors so Springtrap not only can't do this, but can't even pressure the map with the doors?
- The doors being usable by Survivors: What Survivor is going to risk using the door when they know Springtrap uses them and can intercept them for a free grab mid door use? It's a cool mechanic and all but it's like using lockers against Dredge - you don't do it, and Survivors will quickly learn this. They will understand that the counter is just to power down the doors and check cameras to find out where Springtrap is, but they will absolutely not use the doors to travel. They may however use the doors to bait him away from other generators being done, similar to how Survivors can use doing Pinhead's box to bait Pinhead away from crucial generators. This isn't the upside for the Killer or Survivors people think it is.
- The cameras revealing Springtrap: This suffers from the same issues as Singu's biopods, revealing Ghostface, and staring down the Unknown - it can also be influenced by bots, as they will always reveal his aura this way. A Killer's power should not be counterable by bots being able to read them through walls.
- 105% speed outside of the door teleport: This is almost worse than Sadako and makes Springtrap terribly weak around strong and tall wall loops. It means he functionally has no chase power and because he's tall and noisy, will easily be countered in chase if the Survivor can bait his hatchet for long enough. That isn't good for a chase down Killer in a chase heavy game.
- His perks: None of them are very good or worth bringing in the state they're in on the PTB. Help Wanted sounds nice on paper but "Mad Grit/STBFL for 60 seconds after you kick a generator" isn't that strong on a Killer that moves at 105% speed. It's frankly much better to just run STBFL for M1 Killers, and this perk has no use on M2 Killers at all. Phantom Fear is hilarious as it's just Killer Scene Partner, but 2 seconds of Aura read is pretty bad unless you're trying to counter checkspotting - and even then it doesn't work because screaming doesn't prevent the Survivor from pulling a pallet down or vaulting. If screaming changed to do those things, this perk would be a lot better. It feels like a bandaid fix perk to hiding, something already countered by Survivors getting AFK crows for "extreme hiding" and that something like Nowhere to Hide or Predator do much better. Haywire's an awesome concept and something the community has asked for a lot - the regression of the exit gate switch. This has use in endgame builds, the problem is that it regresses much too slow! It should regress at the same rate as doing the exit gate switch, there is literally no reason it shouldn't. That way it forces Survivors to stick on the gate. The other issue with this perk is that it's going to be too easily abused by highly mobile Killers like Nurse or Blight, as they can patrol gates very easily. That makes going for gates at the end way way too dangerous. if anything the perk is gonna need a cooldown but a quicker regression to compensate, it's somehow too weak for many Killers and too strong for already strong Killers. And frankly, the exit gate regressing slowly if the Surv lets go should really just be basekit anyway.
All this considered, I think with how easily bullied he'll be and how slow he is, he isn't at all an A or B tier. Try more like a low B to high C tier. I can think of several Killers with similar powers much stronger than his, but I can forgive all that if the Killer is fun. So is he fun?
Oh hell Fazbearin' YES, he's fun…
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@xGodSendDeath said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3937336#Comment_3937336
Do you say this to survivors that complain about getting tunneled? Because getting under 20k points means the gens flew (i didn't get to play the game much) or i couldn't catch anyone (terrible matchmaking). Either one is not a good experience
Please do not change the goalposts, this post is about Killers not Survivors.
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@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3937312#Comment_3937312
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something. Isn't it the case that the last survivor hasn't lost until they're downed and picked up. Being able to mori a survivor from the healthy state as a basekit mechanic is a little absurd, right? They could take a hit, continue the chase for the rest of the time the other survivor is struggling, then get hatch. This change will tilt that kind of chase massively in the killer's favor.
For example, if I zoned a survivor successfully in that scenario, all I have to do is force them to be in a position to take one hit, but in this case they could be moried instead. That means I don't actually have to win the chase, I just have to be in a situation where I'm in range to hit them once, and then get a free mori instead of the hit. Am I missing something?
In what scenario is a healthy Survivor, except if it's Myers running a Tombstone addon, an instant one hit Mori with no chance to even loop? The Mori can only be done on a downed Survivor (AKA not a healthy one) by 99% of Killers 99% of the time. That 1% is Myers with a Tombstone addon, and frankly that's just not as common as it once was…
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@HellTaykr said:
Originally I would've just dodged lobbies that had coins but guess I can't do that until they hopefully fix this, absolutely won't be buying springtrap until this gets fixed. Why does a game mechanic that survivors only do when they are throwing or doing a very specific build take precedent over killers basic gameplay.
Frankly he's not as strong as he seems and his perks aren't really that good, he really needs serious changes from the PTB to live because again… if he comes out in this state, he is absolutely not going to be considered A to B tier for very long. Let's look at this really.
Weaker antiloop than Huntress because he has one hatchet and has to wait several seconds to get it back when he very well might need it most. Weaker teleport than Sadako with the same issues as her; Sadako at least gets quickish teleport and a Condemned mechanic. Teleport Survivors can also use at a risk a lot like Dredge, but let's face it - everyone will just avoid using it because it's too risky and gives him an instant grab, why take that chance when you could just eliminate his power with the doors? Dredge has less of an issue with the lockers and their spawns than Springtrap will have. He's 110% speed outside of using the doors. He is otherwise an M1 Killer with a weak antiloop, decent mobility, nothing much to handle long chases, and a slow walking speed.
Dredge has a remnant and faster teleport. Sadako has condemned and faster teleport. Huntress has multiple hatchets despite being a slower movement speed. What in comparison makes Springtrap better at any of that than these three Killers?
I think he will inevitably, if he comes out in this state, settle to a mid B to high C in light of just how easily he can be countered, bullied, and how slow he gets his M2 back. He really does not have as much as people think, but at least he's fun. Hell, I think someone like Ghostface or Myers or even Bubba might be stronger… they at least can bash pallets, use stealth as a form of extended mindgame, or one hit people.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3936609#Comment_3936609
It's largely what's wrong with the community. People care too much about winning. Everyone wants to win, but for some it simply isn't the be-all end-all like it is for others.
Frankly as long as I didn't 0k or I got enough BP I'm happy. I don't understand this absolute need to 4k or escape streak, why do people want the game to become super hard for themselves to the point they are locked into running the strongest things every time? That doesn't sound fun to me at all, that sounds miserable, I'd rather run the more mid or less good perks and Killers or less efficient but more fun unique builds and get middling results, than continuously stomp the competition until all I get are SWF deathsquads and Blight-Nurse-Kaneki-Wesker-Spirit on rotation 24/7/365.
I don't need to prove to anyone I am good enough at this game to win, because let's face it… winning in this game is not really that hard. I have won and lost enough to know exactly how good I am at this game and I just wish more people in this community felt the same way…
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@xGodSendDeath said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3937316#Comment_3937316
Not really. A game where I get under 25 - 30k points as killer was not a good experience
I am truly sorry you can't find any other way to enjoy this game.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3934875#Comment_3934875
They're doing it to trigger you. The best way to deal with this is to not care. They won? Push them out. They're talking smack in chat? Move on. The only reason they still do this is because it gets a rise out of people.
The problem is, when Killers do this to Survivors, there are mechanics in place for them not to have to take it. There's nothing like that for when Survivors do it to Killers.
Survivors leave the round early when they die. Killers play the whole round, if they lose they are stuck with that loss. Now that's fine and all, but it becomes frustrating when the result of losing, which already doesn't feel good, is served up with an extra heaping helping of people being sore winners about winning, and especially if it's all four. It's not common to see Survivors or Killers do this sort of thing, but it does happen, and when it happens it feels really bad to be on the other end of. Nuisance Squads are a flavor of this. Teabagging at the gates is a flavor of this. Being humpteched on the floor by a Killer or bled out is a flavor of this. Facecamping was a flavor of this.
I don't care what side you play or how much agency your side may or may not have. Being "GGEZ'd" or humiliated with "neener neener you can't touch me"/"neener neener let me rub in your face how much you lost" does not feel good and is always unsportsmanlike bad griefing behavior. End of. -
Frankly Insidious should extend stealth or do something else with stealth. Maybe give a haste boost while "unseen" or in stealth like 2v8's Fearmonger class, or maybe give a short burst of stealth after the Killer hits a Survivor, is stunned, etc. IDK. Something besides "stand a few seconds and become Undetectable", it's a perk from an older era of DBD that encourages camping and has no other use. It needs to change.
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@xGodSendDeath said:
"Aw man, who cares! You barely ever run into teams like that! Most matches are just discombobulated solos that are doing their totem challenges! We don't need to balance for those teams!"
Wow literally first game tonight. 2.8 gens done at first hook and 1. I didn't take a long time to find someone, 2. the first person literally just held forward, pathed terribly, and didn't throw one pallet on Garden of Joy. 2.8 gens done.
We need anti-gen rushing quality of life changes!https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/5YR1VB2J8YJW/19728fbc4f386-screenshoturl-resized.jpg
Friend, you tied. That's neither a win nor a loss - and within the 60% killrate. You're fine, you did fine. You don't need to 4k to have a good round.
Please, I beg of you, get off 2020-2024's "I must win at all costs" teat. The game becomes more fun when you aren't focused on wins at all costs and accept that sometimes, you simply will tie or lose and this is by design.
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I didn't know about Jonesy in the locker or that if Doc sacrifices someone the Survivors still alive hear their friend whimpering on the hook where they died!
I always thought it was neat that in several Moris you can find Survivor corpses remaining in the environment, it feels really thematic to be running around and then you see Jeff got Mori'd, then five seconds later you stumble on his corpse.
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It appears the mechanic is glitched on the PTB and it's intended to only apply if one Survivor is in the Dying state and the other one is on the Hook. Frankly it should occur if the second to last one is First Hook too, but I get why it's not - there's perks that involve free unhooks, and if this Mori change happened on first hook it would mean a Survivor may not get to use those perks at all or would not have a chance to turn the game around if they did have them.
@smurf said:
Wait, I just read the update and it sounds like the final survivor can be moried from full health if the second to last survivor is on the struggle phase. That has to be a mistake right?
I've seen and even been on both sides of cases where the last survivor is being chased by the killer, but the last survivor gets hatch. Why are we taking away the most fun part of hatch races? I remember once when I got downed of top of hatch and escaped while the killer wiped their weapon.
This should apply only if the last survivor is in the dying state.
I think honestly, hatch game is not affected by this at all as it's a game that can be lost. In that situation the Killer is just going to hook you if you don't find the hatch anyway so it's kind of fine. In such a situation you're the only Survivor left alive anyway, so the penalty regardless is still a hook or a Mori if the Killer downs you like this. Being downed on top of Hatch just means you may still be able to escape before the Killer Moris anyway due to the weapon wipe animation. Therefore, this change is fine, as the Last Man Mori doesn't affect hatch game except to make it higher stakes and possibly end it a different way if the Survivor loses the 1v1 anyway.
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I think it just feels a little underwhelming in terms of tension and could stand something a little more frantic. I don't think it needs loud drums or anything. Springtrap isn't that kind of character.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3937130#Comment_3937130
Wouldn't go that far, as the chat has made us a few friends. Besides there's an option to hide it. As far as we're aware it keeps it off till turned on.
Well then why on earth is "ggez" not at least a thing that gets censored, yet if I say the word "kill" in a game about there being Killers trying to kill people, THAT is censored?
At least neuter the fun of saying ggez by censoring "ggez" and "ez". "gg"/"ggs" can stay.
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This is just completely unfair to Killers that use this mechanic, it is now three Killers that use this mechanic of spawning teleporters like this. It puts Dredge locker spawns being bad on some maps to absolute shame because it's every single map!
A Killer should not have to bring a specific item to prevent their power being taken away. Survivors should not be able to pre-counter a Killer's power from the word go like this; I can't pre-counter Survivor items as Killer! Chests should never take priority over a Killer's props.
At the same time this bug which affects several Killers can ruin the Survivor experience. I know if some random brings a Tarnished Coin in and we get Singularity, Plague, Pig, Vecna, Nightmare, Wesker, Nemesis, Sadako, or Xenomorph - well good luck engaging in their mechanics fairly. Good luck getting your RBT off in time, that spray you may need against Uroboros, any sort of the magic items for Vecna, an EMP, finding a Fountain to cleanse. They're scattered to the four winds because the spawns are completely messed up because some guy had to spawn one extra chest, and I know the Killers aren't having a fun time either because half their kit is gone (except I guess maybe Nemesis because nobody uses his Vaccines seriously anyway since being infected with T-Virus does nothing except make you blue). GGs, I might as well not play at all because I don't even get to engage with the Killers' props in a meaningful way, meaning I can't even counter Killers the way they're supposed to be countered.
How does Springtrap, one of the most anticipated Killers ever, have this bug (which also affects Sadako, Nightmare, Plague, Xenomorph, Pig, Wesker, Singularity, Vecna, AND Nemesis) but also have the Bots Can Reveal Through Walls bug (which also affects Ghostface and Unknown)? And at the same time, Springtrap also has the weakness Sadako and Dredge have, that being that his mobility option - the doors - can be blocked from him at any given time if Survivors are smart. However unlike those two Killers, Springtrap is not a 110% speed Killer and actually suffers more from having a lack of map mobility than them. When people realize they can manipulate maps against him, manipulate chests against him, manipulate any possible DC bots in a round against him, AND counter his doors easily, the Killer will be considered quite unfun to play, very easy to bully, and somewhat weak - perhaps even weaker than Dredge and Sadako, which is a weird statement for a new Killer that people are calling "B to A tier" but here we are.
This is a huge issue for Springtrap, and all those issues he suffers from are already big issues for the other Killers they affect. Offerings and bots should not counter Killers, maps should also not hard-counter Killers, it's completely unfair and a totally one-sided issue that has nothing equivalent to how bad it feels on Survivor side at all. My hope is these are the types of "longstanding glitches" that the second phase of the health update will address, because they all badly need to be fixed, especially this one. It ruins the game experience for Killers affected by unfair glitches like these.
This cannot and should not be an intentional feature of this game. I don't care how it gets fixed. Just fix it. Now.
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- I don't mind some maps being daylight or brighter, but I'd love to see all the bright maps be a little bit darker - like, Dead Dawg sunset or maybe a little darker than that. The brightness is detrimental for some Killers for no good reason, and it kinda doesn't feel as much like horror if there's too many bright maps.
That said, I really want to see something like the Moon Bouquet addons again, to adjust the lighting and weather in all maps. I would call them Moonlight Shards and they would replace the Reagents. They would not stack.
- I have a concept for this but it's a long read, you're free to ignore it if you like. Post is over if you don't care.
——————
Concept for this, for those interested:
- There would be a few lighting levels for these offerings: Sunset (the brightest), Twilight, Nighttime, Eclipse, Stormy, Foggy, Midnight, and New Moon (the darkest). There's also three event modifier versions of these: Blood Moon, Hunter's Moon, Blackout, and Snowfall. The lighting Levels are in order:
- Sunset: Shadows will decrease but be cast longer, the sky will be set to a sunset appearance, and Fog will be removed to increase visibility. The map will look similar to Dead Dawg's lighting level. The brightest lighting level.
- Foggy: Shadows will be slightly darker, the sky will be overcast, and the Fog will be much thicker than normal reducing visibility. The map will look similar to a very Foggy Gideon Meat Plant in terms of lighting level, very grey.
- Stormy: The Shadows will be very dark and the sky will be overcast, there will be occasional thunder and lightning sounds along with wind noises, and the Fog will be replaced with a rain effect. Does not have any effect on indoor maps except for noise and lighting. On the Ormond maps, causes a blizzard effect; on the Eyrie maps, causes a sandstorm effect. The rain/snow reduces visibility slightly, like a light Fog would. The map's rainy effect would light it similar to the outside of RPD but otherwise be more of an overlay on most maps.
- Twilight: Shadows will be darker and cast longer, the sky will be set to a starry nighttime with a slight dim sunset appearance, and the Fog density will be normal. The map will look similar to Azarov's Resting Place in terms of lighting level.
- Nighttime: Shadows will be dark, the sky will be set to a full moon at night, and Fog density will be normal. The map will look similar to Coal Tower or Nostromo Wreck's lighting level.
- Eclipse: Shadows will be dark, the sky will appear as though the sun has been eclipsed, and Fog density will be slightly thicker than normal. The map will look similar to a slightly foggier Decimated Borgo or Forgotten Ruins in terms of lighting.
- New Moon: Shadows will be very dark, there will be no Fog, and the sky will be moonless. The map will be similar to Greenville in terms of Lighting.
- Midnight: Shadows will be very dark, Fog will be very thick, and the sky will have a waning Crescent moon and be slightly cloudy. The map will be similar in terms of lighting to Yamaoka Estate.
The event special modifiers, which can be natural at a 15% chance during their event in normal/event queue rounds, or be set with a Blood Moon exclusive offering:
- Blood Moon: Only occurs during the Blood Moon event. Causes the lighting in the trial to be lit a bit redder, increases the Fog density to medium thickness, and causes the trial to be cast with a blood red moon at night in the sky. The red tint obscures Scratch Marks and the Killer's Red Stain, but causes noises of Pain to be increased by 50% at all times (yes this works through perks like Iron Will) and makes injured Survivors bleed more frequently as if affected by Hemorrhage while tinting them a brighter red. All players in the round also get 100% extra BP. The map lighting would be similar to Old Decimated Borgo - very red.
- Hunter's Moon: Only occurs during the Haunted by Daylight event. Causes the lighting of the trial to be an eerie nighttime with a big bright orange moon, much darker shadows, and much thicker fog. Causes Void portals to glow a brighter blue and makes all Auras brighter and last longer. Causes Survivor footsteps and Killer specific noises to be non-directional and mutes the Killer's Terror Radius past 16 meters. All players in the round also get 100% extra BP. Lighting would be similar to a really Foggy Coal Tower.
- Blackout: The Offering for this one only appears in the Bloodweb if Lights Out is the current Modifier, and it has a 100% chance to occur in the Lights Out queue but a 0% chance in the normal queue (you have to bring the Offering for it to occur there). Causes the trial to be cast in darkest shadow and the thickest possible extra Dark Fog. Hides all Auras from both sides except for generators and hooks, but does not hide Killer Instinct prompts. Hides the progress bars for both sides (except for AFC), but not the HUD. Removes Scratch Marks and mutes the Killer's Red Stain. Removes the Killer's Terror Radius outside of chase. Muffles all sound effects. Flashlights can be used to pierce the darkness with a similar effect to the Candelabras from Lights Out 2.0, but also makes you more visible to the Killer. All players in the round also get 100% extra BP. If the Nightmare or the Dredge are the Killer, this Offering is rejected.
- Snowfall: Only occurs during the Bone Chill event. Causes the map to have a light snowfall effect similar to the Ormond maps, on all maps, and tints the lighting a bit brighter and slightly bluer. The snowfall is just cosmetic, but if this Offering is given, extra Snowskulls spawn in the map. Also, all players in the round get 100% extra BP. That's it, no other changes, it's just fun. :)
And the Shards will be like this:
- Dusky Moonlight Shard: Increases the chance that the trial will be lit with Sunset. If the Map chosen is already lit with Sunset, this offering is returned to your inventory at the end of the Trial. "Run home, little rabbit, when the sun sets like a guillotine."
- Twilit Moonlight Shard: Increases the chance that the trial will be lit in Twilight. If the chosen map is already lit with Twilight, this offering is returned to your inventory at the end of the trial. "When daylight fades to twilight, so too does your life."
- Full Moonlight Shard: Increases the chance that the trial will be lit in Nighttime. If the chosen map is already lit with Nighttime, this offering is returned to your inventory at the end of the trial. "In the pale moonlight, dark things cavort and hunt with the baying of wolves."
- Eclipse Moonlight Shard: Increases the chance that the trial will be lit in Eclipse. If the chosen map is already lit with Eclipse, this offering is returned to your inventory at the end of the trial. "Blot out the sun, blacken the sky / On such wicked days, you're sure to die."
- New Moonlight Shard: Increases the chance that the trial will be lit in New Moon. If the chosen map is already lit with New Moon, this offering is returned to your inventory at the end of the trial. "In shadows this deep, anything could lurk, ending your lifecycle along with the moon's."
- Midnight Moonlight Shard: Increases the chance that the trial will be lit in Midnight. If the chosen map is already lit with Midnight, this offering is returned to your inventory at the end of the trial. "The Witching Hour - known to be the final hour of far too many's lives, and the perfect hunting time for those who take them."
- Foggy Moonlight Shard: Increases the chance that the trial will be Foggy. "The ever swirling Dark Fog haunts, obscures, and offers secrets deadly and mysterious - best not to dwell on it."
- Stormy Moonlight Shard: Increases the chance that the trial will be Stormy. "It was a dark and stormy night…"
- Bloody Moonlight Shard: Increases the chance that the trial will be lit by the Blood Moon. The Blood Moon causes scratch marks and the red stain to be obscured, reduces Grunts of Pain, and increases brightness and frequency of Blood Stains. If offered during the Blood Moon event, the chance increases to 100%. Only available during Blood Moon. Increases Bloodpoints of all players by +100% for the Trial. "Come, feast on their life's blood, or pray that you keep yours."
- Hallowed Moonlight Shard: Increases the chance that the trial will be lit by the Hunter's Moon. The Hunter's Moon thickens the Fog, causes some noises to become non-directional, decreases the Killer's Terror Radius to 16 meters, and causes all auras to last 3 seconds longer and glow brighter. If offered during Haunted by Daylight, the chance increases to 100%. Only available during Haunted by Daylight. Increases the Bloodpoints of all players by 100% for the Trial. "All Hallow's Eve beckons, thinning the veil between the realm of the dead and the living… for just one night."
- Obsidian Moonlight Shard: Increases the chance that the trial will be Blacked Out. Blacking Out a trial causes reduced Visibility, mutes sounds, removes scratch marks, mutes the Killer's Red Stain and removes their Terror Radius, hides some auras, and hides certain information from all participants in the trial. Only available during the Lights Out Modifier. Increases the Bloodpoints of all players by 100% for the Trial. "Scream all you want - nobody will come to save you in this pitch blackness."
- Chilling Moonlight Shard: Increases the chance that the trial will be Snowy. Snowy trials have a light frost and snowfall effect with slightly brighter lighting and causes extra Snowskulls to spawn in the Trial. If offered during the Bone Chill event, the chance increases to 100%. Only available during the Bone Chill event. Increases the Bloodpoints of all players by 100% for the Trial. "Is that chill down your spine from terror or excitement - or just from the cold?"
I know this was long but it was just my idea for this, thought it was neat. :)
- I don't mind some maps being daylight or brighter, but I'd love to see all the bright maps be a little bit darker - like, Dead Dawg sunset or maybe a little darker than that. The brightness is detrimental for some Killers for no good reason, and it kinda doesn't feel as much like horror if there's too many bright maps.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3936594#Comment_3936594
I have seen all the killers that you just mentioned pretty recently.
I just posted this take…
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This is a problem with every single dash and speed based Killer faster than Wraith or Legion, and it's just one more reason we don't need more dash-based Killers in the game.
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This change badly needs to happen, it's absurd that some Killers can get nerfed by an offering but others don't get affected at all. It's not fair to any Killer that spawns anything - if this is going to be a feature, come out and say it's a feature, then change how the spawns are to prevent situations like Xeno and Sadako having no tunnels/TVs anywhere near some gens, or there not being enough sprays/vaccines/EMPs for Survivors because of a chest offering against Wesker, Nemesis, and Singularity.
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I don't see this as unreasonable, I just don't see the need for stats like this. Honestly, I hope when this is added that BHVR adds the option to toggle it on or off. If not I only want to see how often I successfully used my Power to do something cool (like locker grabs, Ghostface Marked downs, Oni Demon Strikes, etc.), my number of escapes (both hatch and gate) and number of kills (Moris and Sacrifices both). I don't want to see my MMR, I don't want to see how often I 3-4ked or made it out of a gate, I don't need to see how many gens I did or vaults I vaulted, I'm happy with just the basics.
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I can't help but agree.
This map should have been Greenville's opposite - large indoors, small outdoors like RPD has. The Focus should have been on the Pizzeria, having it a side building is not only disrespectful to the FNAF legacy, it's a repeat of too many maps we already have. Indoor maps are not a bad thing or even unbalanced if done correctly, I don't understand why BHVR and the community is so averse to them. We haven't had a new indoors style map for ages and I'm sick of the same formula of "Big outdoors map with a big strong cool central focal main" - often those maps end up being big and imbalanced in favor of Survivors more often than not, which isn't exactly fair to the less mobile half of the roster. It's also a massive nerf to stealth Killers who already aren't super strong to begin with because there's such a large line of sight for everything except inside the Pizzaria, and even that's not a very stealth dense area.The glitchiness and collision issues are a huge problem and they are on Greenville, too. The map needs to have less of those, and more tall wall type structures if it insists on being an outdoors map. It also could stand better lockers and locker placement, this is yet another map that sucks for Dredge, Huntress, and Trickster. The issues with sound occlusion are also problematic as OP points out.
In general this map needs to have the outside reduced by half, and the indoors increased by half - or be an indoors map with a small outdoors "playpen" area. Come on, the entire FNAF series except I think Security Breach takes place mainly indoors, just make it indoors heavy. They cannot and should not design this like it's Greenville, it's not Greenville. If I were a FNAF fan I'd be devastated they got this map so wrong and made the Pizzaria so disappointingly tiny.
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Bait used to be believable…
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@Langweilig said:
A while ago toolboxes got buffed and recently breakout. While it made sabotaging a lot better, there are still perks and elements that need some polishing to be viable.
Boil over
- Remove getting wiggle progress after falling and landing with the killer.
- Hitting a great wiggle skill checks grants 1% wiggle progress. (New)
Note: Boil over is only good in situations where it can be abused and it lead to nerfing sabotaging as a whole by introducing so many new hooks. Now it is barely useful, because most or all abusable spots are fixed.
Breakout
- Increase range to 6 (was 5)meters.
Saboteur
- Reduce sabotage time to 2 (was 2.3) seconds.
- The cooldown only starts after successfully sabotaging a hook.
- The aura of hooks gets shown when someone is downed or carried by the killer. (Was only when carried).
Leader
- Increase the percentage to 35-50 (was 25)%.
Desperate Measures
- Dead survivors count for stacks.
- Increased its effect to 16 (was 14)%.
- Added sabotaging speed to its effects.
Sabotaging a hook in general
- The aura of sabotaged hooks remains shown to the killer for 10 seconds, after they got sabotaged. When the hook got sabotaged you also see it with the aura. (new)
Toolboxes
- Sabotaging consumes 4 (was 6) charges.
- Alexes toolbox has 20-24 (was 18) charges.
- All toolboxes with 16 charges get 20 charges.
- New addon, that shows you the aura of hooks inside of a 32 meter radius to your location.
- Yellow toolbox: Hooks need 20 seconds longer to respawn. (New)
Dying light
- The obsession gets affected by the negative effects as well.
Thanatophobia
- Gain 4% of its effects for each injured survivor. (Was 2% per injured person + 12 % when all four are injured).
Note: That way it can be used on more killers than legion and plague.
Scourge hook:Hangman’s trick (mini rework)- While carrying a Survivor, see the aura of any survivor within 9 (was 0) meter of a normal hook and within 14m of a scrounge hook. This effect persists for 4 seconds after hooking the survivor (new).
- When a survivor starts to sabotage a hook, they scream and become exposed for 30 seconds. (new)
Note: If survivors try to sabo you can go for them or down them with the exposed and they get interrupted by the scream. The aura reading will also be a lot more helpful and less situational than it currently is.
What do you think ? 💭
I'll look at these bit by bit, but I'm of the opinion none of these changes would be very healthy for the game whatsoever.
- Boil Over: I agree wiggle progress when falling from a height should be removed as this was and still somewhat can be abused. I don't think it needs to grant +1% wiggle increase, though. The perk was nerfed for very good reason, and upstairs hooks were added to cement that. Rather, the change it needs I think is to just remove the extra sway it causes for Killers, and make the Great Skillcheck zones on wiggling be larger, meaning that wiggling will a) naturally grant a bit more progress as per the perk's intended design, b) this perk can no longer be used in an exploitable manner and is just for accruing BP, something Survivors still often struggle with. I know BHVR doesn't wanna have perks that do that anymore, but I feel it's healthier than adding changes to make previously problematic perks strong again. They were nerfed for good reason.
- Breakout: I think 5 meters is plenty, Breakout plays are meant to be risky moves. Rather I think Breakout should simply not stack with any wiggle increase progress, because currently it can stack with stuff like Boil Over and Flip-Flop. I don't see any reason it needs to be strengthened as it's already a risky perk. Maybe if you want to strengthen it, have it instead help boost the carried Survivor's wiggle progress even more but if it's successful, the user becomes Exposed and Exhausted for 10 seconds - that makes it strong but situational like Shoulder the Burden, while having a strong downside to discourage abuse by stacking it with stuff that makes both of the Survivors escaping easy. Nobody looking to bully the Killer wants to become the next target. I still don't think it even needs this; not all perks have to be strong picks.
- Saboteur: This perk does not in any way need to be buffed; if anything Sabotaging as a mechanic is greatly overtuned. It is never, ever used for anything but to troll or frustrate the Killer player into hardcore slugging everyone, stomp on baby Killer players, and complete challenges. I think Saboteur as a perk needs a full rework entirely - instead of breaking hooks, it now is used to permanently entity block a vault to the Killer (the Killer cannot shoot things through this vault either) OR rebuild one pallet per round and then deactivates - and this pallet or Vault may not be a God Pallet/Vault (this would be hard coded to not work on pallets at shack, pallets and vaults at certain structures like Cow Tree, or on vaults above a drop down or next to other vaults). You get one use to tilt a chase in your favor per round. Rebuilt pallets are given a special sheen visible to all players. If a rebuilt pallet is broken again, it is never rebuildable again - it also does not stack with Chemical Trap (you can't trap this pallet with it). Effects of this perk do not stack - if someone in the round uses it, it deactivates for everyone who has it. This adds a new tactical mechanic to the game that is hard-coded to not be abusable because it's only able to be used once, and that people have asked for or found fun - being able to use vaults and pallets in a new way against Killers or being made to play around them.
- Leader: This perk is already fine as is, it really doesn't need a buff. Buffing it would help SoloQ, but also make SWF stronger for no reason - and SWF is already strong. If anything I would rather see Leader not stack with things like toolboxes, but that's a pipe dream. I think it's genuinely fine and balanced as is.
- Desperate Measures: This perk's speed increases are already being turbobuffed in the next patch when Springtrap comes to live, so I don't think it needs anything more. It's already going to be fine for those who like to play injured and take that risk. Most certainly dead Survivors should not count for stacks, why should you get stacks on a player no longer in the game? Killers lose stacks on perks around Survs being kept alive and the Obsession if they kill someone too early, why shouldn't Survivors have the same consideration to play around? Also Sabotage speed absolutely does not need to be added to anything, as already discussed Sabotaging is currently overbuffed for no reason except to make people maybe not use toolboxes on gens, which spoiler, they just use them on gens anyway.
- Sabotaging in general: I think the aura read for Killers on seeing which hook was saboed is fine, and a very good accessibility change for deaf and hard of hearing Killer players. I also think the aura should be shown to Survivors, so they know that's a safe zone for a short time as the Killer can't hook them there. As for Sabotaging in general, as I said above, it's overtuned and it needs to be reverted to how it was, yesterday. It's overkill and it's a mechanic solely used to bully baby Killer players or taunt the Killer into slugging everyone. Revert or change it.
- Toolboxes: These don't need to be stronger, they're fine as they are with a couple actually being overtuned depending on what addons you put on them. The change to toolboxes needs to be this, and nothing else: All toolboxes have 16 charges, but some addons can have more. Speed increase is the same as before with a slight cap, starting at 25% for a Brown Toolbox and being max 75% for a Blue or Purple Toolbox. Toolboxes that have a sabo speed increase now no longer can increase generator repair speed, and toolboxes that have a repair speed increase now no longer can sabotage hooks. Toolboxes are currently the biggest reason that there are complaints about "genrushing" and games going too fast; they are pound for pound the strongest Survivor item as well as easily the best pick for simply grinding generators, and that's basically all they are really used for. The biggest culprit here is Commodious and toolboxes like it (the anniversary ones, for example), and they are the ones that need this most. Remember, BNP was so strong, it was changed multiple times to what it is now. There are enough more balanced ways to do sabotage and repair generators - it's absurd enough I rarely ever bring toolboxes anymore and guess what? I still repair gens quickly enough because of others bringing perks for it or simply using teamwork. With the coming changes to other items being given more use or new uses, toolboxes may not be the only decent pick anymore anyway, so I would be fine seeing them toned down a bit. I don't mind there being an addon for increasing hook aura range, but I think charge addons should be rarer than sabo addons. No doubt I'll be downvoted for saying this should happen, but let's face it - we all know this is what should happen.
- Dying Light: This perk is outdated and needs a total rework because an Obsession is chosen every round. Your change isn't it though and frankly removes the whole point of the Perk. I think the Obsession should get a 10% increase to unhooking, healing, and repairs - but in exchange, they now have their aura permanently revealed to the Killer for 5 seconds every 30 seconds for the entire round. To counteract tunnelling, if the Obsession is hooked, their unhooker becomes the new Obsession and gets the same benefits and drawbacks. Those who are not the Obsession still get the usual drawbacks. This makes the perk an interesting choice and can work with some other Obsession perks, plus it removes the frankly useless drawback from it while still keeping the Obsession-based nature of the perk. I think Wretched Fate should also have this change, but in reverse - Obsession still gets the drawbacks and nobody else, everyone else has aura revealed for about 5 seconds every 30 seconds.
- Thanatophobia: Actually an OK change for Killer perk variety that is counterable with medkits/syringes, but I would add one change - the increase is to 4%, and up to 16% slowdown when everyone is injured. If everyone is injured, they in addition become Broken until someone is downed, hooked, or killed, and then the perk goes on cooldown for 180 seconds. This means that the Killer can't force permanent broken, it doesn't offer extra benefit to those Killers that like to keep Survs Broken or injured all round, and Survivors must heal each other not just to prevent the slowdown but also to prevent teamwide Broken. This probably is a bad change though and if anything, just upping the repair debuff is enough.
- Scourge Hook - Hangman's Trick: Niche but a useful effect. I think maybe it could make sabotaging riskier yet though, and I propose the following change that also is much more thematic for the Killer it belongs to, the Pig. This perk remains a Scourge Hook but it now booby traps those four hooks. If a Survivor sabotages one of these hooks, instead of making them scream, it Entity Blocks that hook from Sabo for the next 16 seconds AND it puts the saboteur in Deep Wound - this way they must leave and mend, and can't go back to that hook, but Survivors also can't be Downed this way. Like with Thrilling Tremors, the Killer sees Entity blocked hooks with a White Aura, and like with Entity blocked Dredge lockers, the Killer can see the Entity spikes on this hook. After the Entity Block fades away, the Scourge Hook effect transfers to another hook on the map, like how Jagged Compass works. This way it's a decent anti-sabo tool and it also makes people trying to bully this way take risks - nobody likes being forced to Mend. If the Survivor is already injured, Deep Wound still procs. If the Survivor has Endurance, it removes the Endurance but does not give them Deep Wound. Keeping it a Scourge Hook with Entity Block prevents abuse of the perk, but also gives the Killer some light info on where Survivors may be.
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Honestly? Just have them work like this:
- Consolidate the Flower/Wreath offerings down to just four kinds: Flower Petals/Blossom/Satchet, and Owl/Shrike/Raven Wreath.
- Brown (Common) Flower Petals/Owl Wreath = 25% personal BP increase in all categories.
- Green (Uncommon) Flower Blossom/Shrike Wreath = 50% personal BP increase in all categories.
- Blue (Rare) Flower Satchet/Raven Wreath = 75% personal BP increase in all categories.
- Survivor Pudding and Escape Cake (Both Uncommon) = 100% personal increase in all categories.
- Sealed Envelope and Hollow Shell = 50% BP increase to all players in the trial.
There. Now you have personal BP offerings, and these items have a reason to be burned instead of as trash.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
While we're on this topic, reduce the size of ALL invisible barriers in this game. There's so many spots where you get needlessly screwed over because there's an invisible barrier that serves no purpose.
They recently added invisible walls to the tables in Dead Dawg Saloon (same as they did on Mother's Dwelling years back), preventing you from falling onto them and causing you to sometimes snag when dropping off the balcony. And what even for? Standing on the tables there wasn't causing ANY kind of balance issue. Both survivors and killers could get on top of it, and it was low enough that killers could still down you without even having to mount the table.
These kinds of things just waste development time and stifle fun.
Not only do these barriers prevent silly fun things like this from happening, they also needlessly create problems for dash and charge-attack based Killers like Billy, Oni, Bubba, and Demogorgon. It's just not fair that I can play a Killer like those and get caught on stray invisible pixels from a table, a rock, a bush. I understand it was done to help nerf Blight and his "butter trees" because collision sliding was a longstanding glitch, but it still doesn't feel good to get screwed out of an M2 attack like this.
It also broke Ghostface's leanstalking mechanic, which… why? Why nerf an already mid tier Killer in the low-power half of the roster? Now I can't even lean around stuff I should be able to just because the object is round.
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I see the weekend trollbaiters are out in full force again…
I'm really sorry you keep being jumpscared by Ghostfaces, Sadakos, Wraiths, Myerses, and Chuckies that actually know how to play the game as a stealth game effectively. I'm sorry my main Dredge frightens you in Nightfall, because let's face it, it's too dark and is an accessibility issue for some players.
But not everyone likes playing those chasedown dash Killers. Some people can't play them at all due to motionsickness or playing on controller. Some people just struggle with dash Killers. Some people just like Stealthy play, and those players all deserve a fair, pretty much balanced, not too OP style of Killer to play if they want. Stealth simply isn't a problem, nor is it bad design at all. When well designed, giving a Killer stealth can even make the game more interesting by making you have to pay more attention to it beyond just blindly looping!
Stealth is a viable strategy, a viable playstyle, and fun for most people to go against in this game. Most people like playing against stealth Killers, sorry to say, because being scared in a horror game is fun. Scaring people in a horror game is fun. People like having fun. People love to play as and against characters like Ghostface, Myers, and yes even Dredge because that's fun for most people who play horror and horror adjacent games. They're actually generally one of the most beloved styles of Killer, especially Myers and Ghostie. Ghostface in particular is so generally beloved that he was the most requested addition to 2v8 until he was finally added as of the last one, and most of the next additions people want aren't strong dashers or ranged Killers… they're characters like Myers and Pig, Stealth oriented Killers. People love these Killers, and for some they're their favorite style of Killer in the game. They're certainly my favorite to play as and against, give me one of these guys in a round over another Kaneki, Blight, or Wesker anytime!
Plus, these Killers are often not the strongest (if anything several of them could use some buffs) and were built for a time when DBD was more hide and seek oriented, with a couple exceptions - but they also do not have to be strong because their strategy still works. Ambush still works. They are fun for pretty much everyone because they're generally pretty balanced and fair, but can still get their 3-4k anyway played correctly even without things like a strong chase power or antiloop (though some like Wraith and Chucky certainly have one). They are unique and fun because they play the game differently from other Killers, which adds variety by changing it from just chase to being more alert. That's different, that's variety. Variety is fun.
Stealth Killers not only have a place in DBD, they belong in DBD, because they're the only Killers that keep this game being anything even resembling a horror game. They deserve to stay.
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I frankly agree. After seeing how modes are gonna come frequently now, and events as well, I think the real issues with the new system are twofold. They are:
1) There aren't enough quests per week to make playing more than a few rounds any fun.2) The quests are super easy and there isn't variety to make up for it.
Why not have 5 easy quests, five more difficult quests, and five Master Killer/Survivor challenges a week instead? Or, why not have the first four weeks be unlocked, then the next, then the next? That way we can go through lots of quests at once at our own pace, and go back to older ones.
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@SkeletalElite said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3937033#Comment_3937033
That's my point, it's pretty even for survivors and killers. You're a little more likely to have an opponent interact with you with you in general when playing killer simply because there's 4 different people to possibly interact with you but generally speaking the quality of the interaction you have is roughly the same whether you're playing killer or survivor in my experience, and therefore you could say the same exact thing about killers that OP has generalized about survivors
This is also certainly true, not helped by this being an asymm game and thus the average Killer possibly getting this four times in one round, but the average Survivor getting this possibly four rounds in a row. The feeling is the same. Bad. The feeling is bad. This feels bad.
Hence why there needs to be some kind of chatbox filtering of "ggez", stuff that removes hardcore griefing by tunnel/slug/camp at 5 gens (which is coming), and stuff that does something about wasting Killer time by hiding or sitting in the exit gate to rub it in (not Just Leaving).
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The chatbox has not added anything except toxicity to the community, it's time it goes.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3936996#Comment_3936996
No you dont need tunnel on 5 gens but when game is near end somethimes you need tunnel, slug( for preasure) to get a chance to get more hooks and kills. Smart teams can bodyblock m1 killers and make them have super long chases. There are weak killers called m1 but weakest are trapper, skull merchant and 60% winrate doesnt mean every game is 2k and biggest difference is getting 2k with trapper and 2k with blight, one is supper stressed out, ftustrated and sweaty while other one done it with ease almoust relaxed.
tl;dr - You're oversimplifying this. Read on.
There are no "weak Killers" Only randomness being more of an obstacle to some Killers than others, and Killers a player struggles to get a 60% killrate with. That 60% means a 2k or better, which is what the devs want. They just want you to be able to tie or better most of the time, and generally speaking, most players hit this regardless of who they play because it's not really that hard to be decent at DBD. M1 also does not mean weak. Spirit is a very strong M1, for example. All M1 means is that your power does not damage Survivors in any way, it doesn't mean the Killer is weak. There's also M2 Killers that can struggle - Pig is an example of a technically M2 Killer like this. Pinhead is also M2 and he can struggle terribly in chase unless he's using a certain addon that makes his chains injure. It's just not true that M1 = weak, and M2 = strong and that's that.Furthermore, Trapper is kept in the state he is in to be a Beginner's Killer. I don't think that's right, but this is what BHVR decided to do. Skull Merchant is also only in the state she is in because the community complained about her to death, literally, so the Devs completely nerfed her in order to make her less common until they redesigned her power. She WAS a very strong M1 who got her strength from being too good at 3genning, and even after that was gone she was still a pretty solid B tier. Knight had the same complaints, but because he was too strong at the same problematic playstyle, so the Devs changed it. The change he got turned him into a B tier and arguably even a C tier, when he was an A tier because he could 3gen, but he is still considered OK, even balanced, despite his glitches - and he obviously still wins rounds fine. You cannot count on having a strong power to be enough to save you, M1 or not - and frankly it doesn't matter in average lobbies anyway; most M1 Mains I know are still getting 3 and 4ks just fine. So obviously, they aren't too weak to compete, not at all. They just aren't meta.
As has been stated here and by various people more knowledgable in the community than me several times, the MMR system supposedly works like this:
For Survivor, you just need to make it through a gate. You don't need to get out with your team, you don't need to escape, it has to be you going through that gate and all the way out. That counts as an increase in MMR - not a win, though you do win at your goal doing this. Hatch is considered null MMR, despite being an escape.
For Killer it's more complex - for Killer, the game sees it as four 1v1s (regardless of whether the community sees it as a 1v4, the MMR system sees it as four 1v1s for the purposes of gain and loss of MMR). So, if you fail to Kill a Survivor, then your MMR goes down for that Killer. If you Kill a Survivor weaker than your MMR, it stays the same. But if you Kill someone stronger than your MMR, you go up in MMR. Now, at the end the game looks at how many you killed, tallies it all up, and determines how much your MMR goes up, down, or stays the same. If you won more than lost, you generally go up, with a 4k netting the largest increase in MMR. If you tied, you pretty much stay there, and if you lost you generally go down in MMR. The stronger the Survivors you beat/lost against are, the greater the increase/decrease is. So functionally, if you killed the strongest person but the weaker three got away, you would still slightly go up in MMR but not by enough to matter. If you killed the weakest three but not the strongest, you could go down or you could stay in the same spot - or, you might go up. This is part of why Killers tend to get "hardstuck" at higher MMR even when they lose rounds as 0ks, because just going for kills above all is the fastest way to boost yourself above your true MMR level, and also it can sometimes just not decrease because you beat weaker people but not enough to actually decrease your MMR.
This is why people will then call Killers weak - because they boost themselves to a level where that Killer's kit may be more difficult to use effectively. Then they make all sorts of tierlists saying how "trash" the Killer is when the real issue is, they boosted themselves or aren't ready to play that Killer at that level yet. The less a Killer's kit has, the more difficult it is to win against stronger Survivor players, though it's certainly still possible. The more you play Killer and start winning consistently with a given Killer, the more you will see this is true. If you're that stressed out trying to do this as any Killer, maybe you are not running the right perks, ran bad addons for your playstyle, made a critical error in your gameplay, struggle in some aspect of the kit or Killer in general, are on a bad map, the RNG screwed you over, or you just aren't quite as good as you think at that Killer yet. There are far too many factors to just outright conclude any Killer is "bad" and "too weak" to do anything, the kits are designed to function in a given niche. At some point, if you play Killer enough, you have to grow out of this idea that a) you can win every game, b) you SHOULD win every game, c) if you can't win every game the Killer themselves are trash - and start admitting sometimes, this game is just that randomized against you or sometimes it really is just a skill issue with you.
The truth is that the Devs are not out here designing any Killer to win 60% of their games, but to successfully kill 60% of Survivors over a set of games - because the Devs do not want this game to have true wincons and don't want it to be a game about measuring how many kills you can get or how many times you can kill most/all of the Survivors. They only look at "winning" in terms of "winning/losing MMR", meaning "winning a difficulty increase." Eventually, going for kills or escapes above all, means you just end up losing even harder against players you can't handle - and that's by design. That's all MMR is supposed to be used for, only issue is MMR doesn't really work, so sometimes you get thrown a random super hard or super easy team.
As for body blocking, not only can Killers also body block Survivors, I promise you every single Killer can handle it by just hitting the body blocker and chasing them instead, every Survivor goes down in 2 hits (unless Exposed or under Endurance). The answer to being body blocked as an M1 Killer is to just down the blocker. Very few teams are that smart anyway, and 4 man SWFs are not very common to start with - BHVR's own stats points this out. "But good Survivors tho" is not a valid argument because you will almost never see teams like that in normal play generally speaking, nor will you see many teams at all under average play conditions. Yes, even as an M1 Killer. :)This post will almost certainly be downvoted for telling the truth.
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I want to see them make this a new one time use item, similar to Fog Crystals, you can get in the bloodweb. That would be something interesting and new for Survs, and something to play around for Killers - a new game element.
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This frankly feels like, if not a Twins sidegrade then a Twins nerf. This change seems to only have been made to make it so that Twins does not counter perks Survivors use that activate in chase or in the Killer's TR. Victor actually gets a lot of his power from not being as noticeable around pallets, which is all the proof you need that stealth can actually be pretty strong in DBD and even a chase power. After this change, Twins will still be fairly strong - but they definitely won't be as strong as they were, I would say a low A to high B since antiloop without strong mobility and being really good at slugging simply is not enough to be A tier anymore in 2025. Twins has mobility but it's not the strongest in the world, let's be honest here. They're a slugging and info Killer - and Slugging is getting an anti system soon, so even that will be tricky for them.
I am happy Twins will be able to get more points for chase, though.