JustCats
JustCats
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@Lx_malice It's not a bad idea and I can appreciate the sentiment it's just that the thing that makes it polarizing in the first place is the invalidating "gotcha" cheese - not so much what it invalidates but that it does at all.
It's never a free unhook, free hit, free wiggle off - all of these perks actively take away something that the killer already did. Just another method to take agency and proactive gameplay away from the killer. If you want to change DS to something that isn't cheese, you'd have to make it something that the survivor has to actually do in the gameplay environment. Like, it always feels bad to miss a hit because of DH, but I can respect that as an outplay. The survivor actually had to do something and the second chance wasn't just handed to them for free. DS/BT/etc - they just happen.
Maybe make DS a perk that gives the survivor one low-ranged stunning strike on the hook, so that if they are getting face-camped they can help the rescuer. But it would be something they'd have to aim rather than just have it handed to them for free, the way most other perks work.
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Play normally until I see that they're a typical ttv swf (unfun to play against) and then usually just run around and commit to zero chases, turn the stream into just watching gens get done. Just get easy hits in for bp and take the de-pip. TTV kids want content and if they're going to play like jerks in a game already heavily stacked in their favor I don't have to give it to them.
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They should really just delete it entirely along with any other perks that just serve as take-backsies. Once the killer (or survivor, but killers don't really have any of these perks) do their thing it should stand. Perks should be about keeping the killer from doing a thing rather than just invalidating the thing they did.
Oh you downed me but OOPS bye or oh you caught me unhooking unsafely but OOPS doesn't matter are just lazy, lazy perks. I don't know that oh I'm on death hook good job but OOPS nevermind is any better.
In other words, DH fine, DS bad.
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It's not so much that the players are always toxic in SWF groups it's that the advantage that SWF (or survivors cooperating in general) makes the game toxic to play.
I'd say the majority of SWF I've run into are playing the game the way they should be, the problem is that the game is designed to be fair for lower skilled solo survivors.
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It's bad game design that's a direct result of the bad game design of survivor perks, though. You can't have a conversation about one without the other.
You're right, there should be no perks that serve as after-the-fact "gotcha" cards that just artificially flip the script after the opposition does what they're supposed to do. However, NOED is a weird one to complain about as it's pretty much the only killer perk to do this in the face of stackable second-chance perks that don't have totems to be cleared on survivors.
It doesn't teach killers to wait until all the gens are completed moreso than it just gives them a reason to keep playing when they run into survivor teams with each one essentially running 2-3 "survivor NOEDs" that you can't really do anything about. If you're running into a bunch of games where survivors just won't go down no matter what you do, or gens just feel too fast and the game is more one of just staring at survivors teabagging at the exit after being gifted their win by their perks - well, that's when a killer runs NOED. It's a dumb perk that doesn't do anything for you all game until you've already lost, but when every game starts to feel like you've already lost before the game begins then it starts to increase in value.
When I run into matches with multiple survivors running all these take-backsie perks and playing like idiot bullies because the game rewards that kind of behavior I usually end up just giving up and either memeing or actually atl-tabbing and AFKing the last half of the match. I could get sweaty and tryhard but I'd rather de-pip and get to some level where the game is fun to play. If I'm running NOED (rare) and they haven't cleared the totem (rarer) I'll usually keep going cause I'm finally allowed to fight cheese with cheese. I suppose it works pretty well for the camper killers looking for the altruistic 4ks, but other than that it's just a frustration perk that gives the killer the rare opportunity to do to survivors what survivors do to killers all game long, if survivors let it activate.
NOED's not a well designed perk, but it's really a symptom and not the disease.
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In games where I can win, regardless of killer, I play Pig, Legion, Hag, Spirit pretty well.
I love the Nurse but she takes some getting used to, and the stun after every blink makes that a frustrating process so I don't often play her.
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@Clevite A top tier killer should have to sweat against a top tier group of survivors, of course. The problem is that a group of top tier survivors never has to sweat. Somewhat hyperbolic, but the sentiment is accurate - in a game of equal "skill" level, the killer will have a much harder time than the survivors. That is not healthy.
@MyersRulz No, the forum is not representative of the community as a whole, but it's a useful place to gather info about the game in the aggregate. One bad restaurant review about the awful chicken fingers could be a one-off - someone had a bad night, different tastes for different people, etc. But if there are tons of bad reviews about the chicken fingers it's an indication that something is off.
If I had visited the forums and seen how every other post seems to be how a killer either just gets absolutely boned in the current meta, a story about a killer defying the odds of... being matched with four survivors trying to "escape," or incessant complaining about tunneling/camping (a symptom of poor balancing, not a problem in and of itself), I probably wouldn't have purchased the game - even though when I bought it I was hoping to play survivor. That's on me. But I don't want people to stop because it could help other people interested in a 4v1 asymmetric horror game, which, at this point, Dead by Daylight is certainly not.
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Why do people leave bad Yelp reviews?
If I had been smart I'd have looked at the forums before I bought the game just to see the lay of the land. I didn't expect a perfect game of course (4v1 games are incredibly difficult to balance well) but I legitimately had no indication that the game would pretty much always be scarier (or at least anxiety inducing) as a killer than a survivor from anything put out by their marketing. It's almost absurd, at this point - like a parody of a horror game.
I haven't quit, though I'm playing much less, because I think the bones are there for the game that was advertised to me and would be fairly easy to fix. I try to post with constructive criticism and ideas for making the game better, because it's the most direct way to having a voice heard by people that can change anything (even if the chances of that are negligible).
That being said, I don't mind the frustrated posts looking for validation from people who have had enough. People don't like being fooled.
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You just turn every group into a pseudo-SWF by relaying essential information through the game - who's working on a gen, who's getting chased, who's healing - whether that's through more detailed portrait information or whatever. That gives everybody "comms." Then balance around that instead of balancing around the assumption that nobody knows what anybody else is doing.
The problem is that the game is balanced around one person playing four 1v1s at the same time, and not balanced around an actual asymmetric 4v1 environment. It works okay until survivors get good enough to cooperate despite the limited information, or until people party up. Once they start cooperating then you have one person playing a 4v1 where each of the 4 can "beat" (counter) them on their own, which is unhealthy.
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The thing is, camping and tunneling being a problem isn't a survivor vs. killer issue. It's less fun for everybody. But you can't fix it by further limiting the only gameplay option that the killer has, as that's where the problem comes from in the first place. The obstacles in front of killers aren't challenging, they're frustrating.
Getting smacked in the head with a pallet - don't feel like I missed a challenge I feel frustrated. I can't block a pallet with a well timed button press, I can't dash through and beat the pallet coming down. I am helpless in that situation. All I can do is stand and wait for the survivor to decide to use it (a win for the survivor) or run foward and take the stun to force them to use it (a win for the survivor). The only way to turn this somewhat to my advantage is to somehow eat enough stuns early enough (without losing too many gens) that there aren't enough pallets for survivors to use later if they need them.
Running around a pile of trash trying to cut my big fat character model as close to the corners as I can - doesn't feel like a challenge it feels frustrating. I can't take an inside track, bloodlust only helps so much; I can't really do anything but wait for an LOS block or for the survivor to look away and reverse direction on which way I'm running. It's only a "mind" game for the survivor as they're the only ones with any real options (except Nurse/Spirit/Freddy).
Getting flashlight stunned when I'm stuck in an animation I can't control - doesn't feel like I made a mistake it feels frustrating. I can't do anything about it if I've already started the animation.
Getting bodyblocked trying to do anything - doesn't feel like I'm getting outskilled it's just frustrating. I can't do anything about it except what the survivors want me to do instead.
Having a chase extended by a "gotcha!" second chance perk - doesn't feel like a challenge to overcome it just feels frustrating. I've already done my thing, and they just serve as a take-backsie. I can't do anything to prevent them from triggering except to play around their trigger conditions entirely, if I know the survivor is running one. And normally the only way to know is to have it trigger once already.
All I can do, as killer, is show, chase, hook. I have no other options. And I am at the complete mercy of the survivors in being able to do that. Virtually all of the "counterplay" in this game is given to survivors with methods that are completely passive as far as potential response from the killer. Again, it should not be surprising that killers resort to camping or tunneling as those are the only two scenarios where they have any real control over anything, and the only scenarios where they can be proactive and force the survivors to respond (albeit in a limited way).
From a game design standpoint, you want each player to feel like they are in control over their approach to the objective. At the start of the match, every player should be on an equal footing in terms of playing proactively and determining their approach to trying to win. Killers in DbD start off on the back foot, and are forced to play almost entirely responsively to the decisionmaking of survivors. The survivors get first turn in the tic-tac-toe game every time, and killers just have to hope they're not paying attention or make a mistake.
This is not entitlement, this is objective criticism. When I play survivor, I know I have a multitude of options in front of me for how to deal with completing my objective in the macro sense. In the micro, I know I have a number of opportunities that are up to me to utilize well. That is healthy game design. As a killer, I know I have one thing and one thing only I can do about my objective in the macro sense - show, chase, hook. I might be able to make that easier by tunneling, camping, or slugging, depending on the survivors. In the micro, I know I have zero real options except to wait for survivors to miss an opportunity. When your macro options are only variable if you use "scummy" tactics and your micro options are virtually nonexistent, that is frustrating and unhealthy design.
The only killers that approach healthy design are the ones that let killers be somewhat proactive in the chase scenario (Nurse, Spirit, Freddy). And instead of complaining about tunneling/camping/slugging with them - they're OP cause pallet looping doesn't bother them as much so survivors can't use their favorite tactic to frustrate them.
TL;DR - Killers need more options to do something in a chase and more macro strategic opportunities to accomplish their objective. They're too one-dimensional from a gameplay perspective and that's why camping and tunneling are problems. The solution isn't to give survivors more help, it's to make killers more interesting to play.
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1346515#Comment_1346515
I don't actually consider anything a second chance perk. I despise the ridiculous term. But yes. The ones you mentioned have the potential to extend a chase. As does any exhaustion perk or a perk that helps you briefly lose the killer.
LOL you can despise the term as much as you want, but they're perks that give an after-the-fact save when otherwise they'd have been injured or worse - a... second chance, if you will.
It's like if the killer had a perk where he could walk up to a completed gen and say "whoops my bad" and knock it out of complete into 50% done. And then had two more perks that did the same thing. If there were such a thing as survivor totems I'd be 100% on them before I did anything else.
They're annoying, and when you combine it with the already absurd looping meta it amazes me that people complain about getting camped or tunneled. All's fair as a survivor I suppose to make the killer's life an eye-rolling headache but god help them if the killer does something equally or nearly as irritating. Then it's an immoral affront to god and country.
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@ABannedCat said:
Killrushing (better known as "camping", "tunnelling", and "slugging") are all valid strategies.
They are the counterpart of generatorrushing.
Both intent to make the game as short as possible, take less skill to acomplish, and are generally unfun for the otherside.
I don't see why playing optimally for one side is so frowned upon, but for the other side its just "doing their objective". It makes no sense to me.
Cause there are four survivors for every killer and the majority usually takes the floor.
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@ThisGuuy83 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1346243#Comment_1346243
And this is why its hell trying to play killer on ps4. It was somewhat tolerable, but now it seems 90% play swf's running coms in party chat, because it makes the game soooo much easier. It's practically a cheat code that behavior can do nothing about. There's no way to stop party chat, even if they took swf's away. It takes 5 seconds to invite the other 3 players to a group chat. The only way to compensate is either buffing killers that go into swf's, or nerfing swf's so there half as strong as solo, but that still wouldn't solve anything on console.
Or you're probably just getting better and getting matched with better survivors. You don't need party chat to play as a team - it's not a complicated game and it doesn't take long to figure things out.
What I'm saying is to drop the pretense altogether and make it easy to play as a team so we can cut out a lot of the stuff that makes it easy to play like it's 1v1, cause when you combine both (which is where the game is now anywhere purple up), the survivors have a stupidly ridiculous advantage.
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1346263#Comment_1346263
Because it's pathetic and lazy.
That's how I feel about looping with 2+ second chance perks but it does help survivors at least waste a lot of time.
Just cause you think it's pathetic and lazy doesn't make it indefensible if the strategy furthers the killer's objective. Camping and tunneling is just doing too much of the only thing the killer gets to do in this game, and it seems that more often than not we let survivors draw the line of how much is too much of the killer's one thing.
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@Rydog The game's aesthetic and potential is probably what keeps people around, plus the addictive natures of grinds and the sunk cost of DLC. It's very close to being a great game but has simple, easy, and frustratingly obvious flaws that make the game annoying when it doesn't have to be.
Just because someone face camped once doesn't mean they do it all the time; I would guess it's like golf. Most golfers have one or two objectively good holes in a round of 18 and perform over par on the rest, but it's the one or two good holes that keep them coming back. They'll get frustrated, of course, and go beat it out on the driving range. My guess is that most killers have one or two games that are legitimately fun out of 18, and they're fun enough to keep chasing them. Your face-camp games are just somebody's driving range day.
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@thrawn3054 said:
Mindless camping and tunneling are not really defendable strategies. There are times where it is the correct play however.
The killer's only objective is to make survivors dead. If mindless camping and tunneling make survivors dead then how is it indefensible?
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If it's not approached design-wise as a game where four players have the same objectives, means to meet them, and are rewarded for working together (in other words - are on the same team) then the game is already fundamentally and likely irredeemably broken.
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Yes, and there will always be risks associated with solo queue - that's supposed to be (or at least I imagine) part of the appeal. And losing because you have a potato is one of those things; losing even though you're all pretty good you just can't communicate is different.
All of the survivor perks designed to even the playing field in a 1v1 with the killer are fine with no communication, because you've raised the entry bar for the teamwork advantage. Works alright for new solo players. But they get seriously busted once people learn to play together or play swf, and that's a problem. So I'm trying to think of ways to lower that entry bar and make teamplay more accessible.
In other words, teamplay should be the difficulty and the skill check for survivors in a good player/bad player sense, not in an accessibility through game design way. The poor teamplay design is what necessitates the survivability perks that make things unreasonable for killers when players do overcome that barrier - I'm saying that maybe there shouldn't be that barrier in the first place so we can reduce or remove the perks that provide artificial survivability to compensate.
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@Rydog Right, and the symptom of rampant or common face-camping should be an indication that things are not okay with the killer's experience of the intended gameplay loop. Punish the symptom and you'll have a bunch of players who can't even settle for that and they'll just quit.
The positive out-of-match rewards are never going to be enough to make someone suffer through a miserable gameplay experience, as they're meaningless if you don't enjoy the game. If killers (in, we're assuming, big enough numbers to be a problem) are frustrated enough to resort to face-camping to get something out of a match the problem isn't face-camping it's the frustration that leads to it.
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@thrawn3054 That's... kind of my point? If you get potatoes you get potatoes, nothing to be done about that and should be a risk of playing survivor. But a lot of times it's not a potato issue and just one of lack of information. The solution so far seems to be to make every survivor super safe pretty much all the time, which works okay if nobody's making an effort to play as a team but quickly gets out of hand as people do. I want less of that and more elements that make it easier to play as a team.
@NuclearBurrito Oh I like those - non intrusive but helpful ways to communicate the important information.
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@Rydog said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1345256#Comment_1345256
These scenarios you bullet-pointed are all specific tactical cases where these actions tend to be the right call.
My problem is with straight-up face camping. For example, I got face camped last night by a Leatherface who hooked me first and then literally did not move one muscle. I had Kindred and hung/struggled the entire time until I died, and my team finished all gens and escaped. From that standpoint, the match was a "success," but it's a super-degenerative game state for a lot of reasons.
First, two players aren't playing the game. I'm stuck watching my screen and mashing a button as literally my entire game experience, while all objectives happen around me. The killer also may as not well be in the game at all, because they are doing nothing. The game experience simply disappears entirely for 40% of the participants.
There is no threat or interaction for the players who remain active, because there is no longer an opposing player.
The killer is shorted on BP and emblems due to their actions, and I -- the camped player -- am forced to de-pip because I was denied any opportunity to contribute to my team's objectives. This one is especially galling to me, because many players will rush to a "oh well BP and rank don't matter" counterargument. This is a bad faith argument, because it's just an apathetic shrug that does not acknowledge SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH THE GAME'S SYSTEMS AND PLAYER FEEDBACK LEVERS if many players are straight-up not valuing these things.
TL;DR Face camping is particularly stupid, and needs to be actively discouraged and mechanically punished, in a way that makes it totally unreasonable for the killer player to choose as a course of action.
You're right, two players aren't really playing the game at that point. It's not terribly fun for the killer, either, obviously. So why does he do it? That's the question to ask.
The answer is probably that it's more fun and rewarding than chasing the survivors, which is his only other gameplay option. Now, you could try to actively discourage and mechanically punish the symptom, but that'll have a couple of effects - one, less killers in general as you'll make the whole game irritating to play for them, and two, remaining killers will find some way to exist in the margins and still do things that survivors don't like and you'll just be complaining about some new survivor pet peeve instead of face-camping.
Or, you could try to look into why chasing and hooking survivors isn't a more attractive option than staring at one until they die and fix it to encourage that behavior instead. Positive reinforcement usually works better than negative, in most scenarios.
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Camp, tunnel, slug, Mori - it's all fair game. If the survivors get annoyed then they should complain that the game is annoying, not that you are. Maybe they'll try playing killer and see that literally everything that survivors do in the current meta is annoying.
As a killer, you've got one thing and one thing only that you can do to advance your objective of pleasing the Entity: make survivors dead. If survivors BM cause you did that in a way they didn't like, well, they're still dead and the Entity is still pleased.
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I think mori's should always be an option, no offering required, but auto pop a gen that isn't currently being worked on (and auto open the doors and dropping active hooks if it leaves just one survivor left), as the Entity gets upset at losing a sacrifice. Points should go to the victim for being an obsession of the killer, and taken away from the killer for being greedy and unfair. I think it'd make the killer actually kind of scarier as a killer and make them command a little bit more respect from survivors who are already too eager to get chased by a murder monster.
Likewise I think the hatch should always be open-able without a key from the start, points going to the killer for scaring off the survivors that use it and points taken away from the survivors for being weak.
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Survivors don't really need any perks at all to be competitive in this game, they just need teamwork. The advantage of having three teammates outweighs anything currently in any killer's kit or possible build - it's just up to the survivors to use it (and no, you don't have to be swf on comms to work as a team). Survivor perks should be relatively inconsequential because otherwise a squad that does rise to the challenge and works as a team in addition to having super useful perks (swf or not) is virtually unbeatable. Which is pretty much what we have.
Part of the problem with the game design as it stands is that it feels balanced to four separate 1v1s instead of a 4v1.
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Considering that they're all pretty easy to deal with at full strength/loadout with just a flashlight I'm not sure any of them would fare terribly well in the octagon.
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Killers have one strategy, and that's to say hello to a survivor and follow them around until the survivor messes up and they get an opportunity to hit them, hook them, and hope they die. They have one approach to their objective fulfillment and that's it, there's literally nothing else for the killer to do in this game.
Camping and tunneling are just "extreme" versions of what they're supposed to do, with an arbitrary line drawn by the survivor as to how much was too much of the only thing killers can do.
The only way to fix it is to make it easier for survivors to escape a chase but harder to maintain a chase or to give the killer more ways to affect the outcome of the game besides successful chases.
My ideal fix would be to do both. Move the terror radius to the survivor and reduce its size, eliminate the red stain, and remove scratchmarks as well as most second chance perks. Make the killer stalk by listening for heartbeats rather than the other way around, and put pressure on survivors to use perks designed to escape from the killer rather than prolong the chase as long as they can. At the same time I'd add a match timer for gen completion to equalize the time pressure between both teams, so that the killer benefits from chases that don't result in hooks as much as survivors benefit from chases that do.
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It's only competitive in that there are two teams pitted against each other. Too much RNG and too simplistic a core mechanic, however much anybody wants to glorify the "mind games" that occur while running around a pile of trash. There's never going to be an e-sport scene around this game.
Doesn't mean it can't be fun and it doesn't mean you can't take it seriously but it's the definition of a casual multiplayer game. Not every game has to be some hardcore test of skill.
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@NuclearBurrito Yes, but even without scratchmarks the killer only has one objective and only one way to do it - chase, down, and hook survivors. Perhaps all the second chance perks are a balancing response to scratchmarks, but they just exacerbate the problem rather than do anything to fix it. It does need to be easier for survivors to actually escape (re: scratchmarks) but ultimately the problem is that if the killer doesn't chase, he can't do anything that helps him win. Second chance perks make the dumb looping mechanic the default go-to because nothing will ever be as valuable to the cause than wasting the killer's time with an intentionally prolonged chase. It's also not surprising that killers will bear down and tunnel or camp, in that scenario, because the only thing that helps the killer is having less survivors on the board, and the only surefire way of removing survivors who potentially have these perks is by literally making them an obsession.
You can see the developers trying to address this by introducing "stealth" killers and jump scare one-shot mechanics - trying to encourage hunting and surprise tactics - but between how easy it is to identify an incoming killer and these second chance perks, the gameplay is essentially the same. Announce yourself to the survivors and choose one to watch for a while. Tunneling and camping are just "extreme" versions of what the killer already does, just with a line drawn by the survivors as far as how much is too much.
Scratchmarks are certainly part of the problem but the underlying issue is an imbalance in paths to objective fulfillment.
@LALYTHIA Right, and why is it easier to tunnel or camp? Don't get bogged down in the micro details of "oh if you're good it's not reactionary cause on this map some of these loops aren't super strong and not all pallets are get-out-of-jail free cards" etc. It's easier to tunnel and camp because of two factors that dovetail with the one-dimensional aspect of killer gameplay. One - there's zero benefit for a killer to not secure a kill after a chase, despite plenty of benefit for the survivor, and two - there are so many "surprise" methods for getting away at the last second that tunneling/camping becomes an incentive. You can't "surprise I got away" from the spectator screen. Since the killer can't do anything but "say hi, chase, hook, repeat" to try to win - especially combined with those two factors - it shouldn't be a surprise that a lot of killers min/max it.
The difficulty is in tunneling or camping hard enough to beat gen completion times. It still won't beat a dedicated genrush, but it will make it easier by default in a rando match even if it's annoying for the other team. In pretty much the exact same way looping and second chance perks make things easier by default for survivors but won't guarantee anything versus a killer who is better than you - even though they're super annoying for the other team.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1344211#Comment_1344211
This paragraph is why Scratchmarks are ultimately the source of this games problems, and thus why I value perks like Poised so much from a game design standpoint.
Scratchmarks are a big problem too, but ultimately it comes down to how one-dimensional the killer's game is. Hooking people to death is their only positive feedback loop - there's no other way for them to influence the outcome. Survivors have many different things they can do in their approach to success, including being able to interfere dramatically with the killer's only available feedback loop - meaning they can try to win the game while they prevent the killer from being able to try. These are the perks that enable it, so it's not surprising to see an obsessive focus from killers.
I do feel like if you just swapped the "terror radius" from the killer to the survivor (and made it much smaller) and made scratchmarks fade much sooner (if not eliminate them entirely) you'd have a healthier chase dynamic that didn't invariably devolve into running circles around piles of trash. It'd put a priority on getting distance from the killer rather than just finding ways to dodge him indefinitely. Granted, of course, that you didn't have 3 or 4 ways to avoid the killer when he did catch you.
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@LALYTHIA said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1344179#Comment_1344179
I don't believe this is true.
Killers camp and tunnel because its one of the easiest ways to efficiently kill people. Not because survivors run specific perks. And if you can win a chase, tunneling isn't an option - true. I've had chases post-hook that lasted until my DS ran out. But that's not a very realistic scenario. How many people coming off a hook with the killer right there have an opportunity to even enter a chase? Not many.
It's more the playstyle that these perks enable that makes camping and tunneling the easiest ways to kill people. With the current state of the game, everything the killer does is reactive to the survivors. If it were easier to escape the killer but harder to maintain a chase, tunneling and camping wouldn't be anything but griefing a bad player and a sure path to losing MMR. Right now the survivors have all the tools to maintain a chase pretty much as long as they don't make an obvious mistake, which is far more valuable (in terms of wasting killer time) than getting away - so they don't even consider other perks or modes of gameplay. Just loop. Tunneling and camping is just a reaction to that.
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DS, BT, Unbreakable encourage tunneling and camping more than they dissuade it. If nobody ran those builds and instead ran a chase like they were trying to get away instead of to waste as much killer time as possible (which these perks enable big time), you'd see a lot less tunneling and camping.
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The absolute vast majority of killers would prefer to roam and hunt like an otherwordly murder monster. However, tunneling and camping are the only real avenues to proactive killer gameplay, where they can play the game on their terms instead of spending the whole game desperately trying to react to what survivors do. There is no stalking, hunting, or chasing really done by killers unless they tunnel or camp. It's really just finding a survivor and sitting through all the irritating perks and loops and managing your time. If you're not tunneling or camping, it's a game of watching a survivor run in circles while your internal clock runs. If the survivor makes a mistake before time runs out, you get to hit them. If they don't, you gotta look for another one to watch run in circles.
It's also key for a killer to get one survivor out of the game before three gens pop, if they want to have any kind of fun for the rest of the game, which currently is no easy task given gen speeds. Fastest way, often, to remove a survivor from the map is to tunnel and/or camp - especially if you feel already behind the gun on the game timer.
There are very few perks as useful to the killer in a chase the same way that all of these second chance perks are for survivors. That means in a chase (the killer's only gameplay mechanism), the survivor determines what happens and the killer always is the one who has to react (the exceptions of Nurse, Spirit, and sometimes Freddy, of course, are the often complained about killers that have a tool to subvert the looping meta and take some sort of charge of the chase). The survivors also get to determine the pace of the game and generally, the killer's overall strategy, since the survivors have the luxury of unlimited time to manage their objective. In other words, the survivor is the proactive player in the chase - which is the killer's objective, AND the pace of gen repair, which is theirs.
If you don't want tunneling or camping, then killers have to be able to win chases earlier OR have something other than hooking and killing survivors as a productive means of their time in terms of winning the game (much like survivors have multiple options - get involved in a chase to waste killer time, hide to waste killer time, do a gen, sabo a hook, flashlight a carry, etc.). All a killer gets to do unless they tunnel and/or camp, is watch survivors have fun.
Edit: as a postscript I understand that all forum killers are super pro skilled and do not have any of these issues, and that I pale in comparison as far as skill and hours put into the game. This analysis is definitely from an average, normal killer/survivor player who needs to "get good." Please keep in mind that there are far more average players than good ones, and that a game isn't sustained by the best, but by the rest.
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Just remove a perk slot for each additional member in your party. Comms can never be fixed but you can certainly fix the fact that a full group of four survivors has sixteen perk slots to share between them. Every member can run the full suite of second chances and/or utility perks while still gaining the benefit of any and all recon perks any one of the members runs.
Comms help, but it's really comms PLUS perks that makes it ridiculous. Just treat each additional party member as if they were a perk in and of themselves, which they are.
So, each survivor gets one game perk in a four-man, two in a three-man, and three in a two-man. SWF is a valuable feature in this game and important, but it shouldn't be an easy button.
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@Desh said:
So Mori's I can slightly understand the issue with. You'll get Killers who tunnel you into oblivion and kill you quickly. I think people have more problems with the Pink Mori than the Green Mori. Mind you, I only ever use a Mori when a ritual (or challenge) demands me to kill them by my hand.
Keys however, I still to this day don't understand what the problem is. You don't suddenly win the game when you walk in with a key. You still have to play and do a certain amount of Gens before you can escape. And that amount varies on how many are alive. If you want to argue that Moris should similar to how Keys work where a Killer needs to do x for a period of y before they can Mori someone, then sure, depends on how you approach it. But I don't see the problem with Keys and people don't like Moris when a Killer goes full "toxic".
Still have to catch the survivors and hook them, then down them again to Mori. Arguably harder to do than to just get a couple gens popped.
I don't have a problem with either, personally, but saying they're not pretty much the exact equivalent of each other is disingenuous.
Personally I think a killer should be able to Mori whenever he has someone on second hook - no item required - at the risk of displeasing the entity and popping a random uncompleted and currently unoccupied gen automatically. The animations are fun and it makes the killers feel like... killers... in a game where most often they feel like middle managers trying to keep survivors on task. Vice versa I think the hatch should be available for survivors from the beginning to open, no key required, but have a limitation that only one survivor can escape during the course of the game.
No points gained for sacrificing or escaping taking either route. Points gained for being killed by the killer's hand (caused blind rage) and points gained for being a killer and having a survivor use the hatch (scared em out).
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My guess, from the enrage, is that at this point the gameplay loop devolves into annoying the other team as much as you can until the end, and that it's rare to have a game where it feels like a cat and mouse survival experience.
On the killer side, looping is an incredibly dumb mechanic, pallets are stupid annoying, 2nd chance perks when you've done everything you can to get some relief from the time-crunch are super irritating, gen repair speed is ultra frustrating. So they resort to cheese gameplay like tunneling/camping/slugging which generally isn't much more fun for the killer than it is for the survivor.
On the survivor side, tunneling and camping feels unfair and getting slugged isn't much fun. Perks to slow down gen repair are annoying more than anything else. Killers that subvert the looping meta feel unbalanced.
After a certain point, there's rarely a game with a hunter-killer stalking prey that have to be creative and resourceful to stay alive and escape. There's no respect for killers as the time demand makes virtually anything a survivor does (with respect to the killer) a net win for their side and requires the killer to play near exactly right in an entirely responsive way to have a chance. In fact that's how most killer wins go, with the survivors pushing that limit to the point of absurdity and making a big enough mistake to give the killer an opening.
There's very little room for killer creativity or fun - it's just a mad dash to prevent gen completion, doing everything exactly right in response to the survivor's actions or else losing miserably. There's almost no proactive gameplay from the killer side. There's no careful stalk, there's no real ambush, there's no waiting for the perfect opportunity. It's run run run find em find em run run there's one get him get him oof a gen popped get him get him damn pallet get him get him there's dead hard ok got him two more gens popped I probably lose. It's basically just a footrace with surprise hurdles for the killer, and a footrace where you get to throw the hurdles as survivor.
Edit: To put things in perspective, I'm an average killer main who bought the game hoping to be a survivor main, but quickly learned that there's far less adrenaline in the survivor experience than the killer. I am obviously worse than every killer who posts on the forums, so no point in telling me to get good.
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@LALYTHIA So how far is the acceptable distance for a killer to be after they hook someone? Do they need to high five the survivors headed there to unhook on the way out? Cause killers don't have any emotes.
It'd be nice if the game gave killers a Radius of Politeness around the hook.
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Maybe he wasn't actually face-camping but just staying where the survivors obviously were, if you were doing everything to get him off the hook. Why chase if they come to you?
Best thing you can do, generally, is not bother trying to unhook anyone unless it's super safe or they're about to hit struggle/death. It doesn't help the survivor if they're unhooked 2 seconds after a killer turns a corner any more than if they're unhooked 2 seconds before they start struggling. Let the killer stand there the whole time and do gens, if he is legit face-camping. If he's not, he'll get tired of even "proxy camping" (lol) if gens start popping while he's waiting for the death.
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@Dwinchester Right - you did everything the game was telling you to do and the game still tells you that you lost. I'm not saying you care if you get the 4k or not, but as a killer you're always trying to. There's no other objective for the killer. Kill the survivors. Killing less than four is always going to be dissatisfying compared to killing all of them, but then adding in that you can kill some/all of them and still get penalized by the game just makes it even worse.
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I am trying to make survivors stronger at base, because I would be introducing a method to make them significantly less safe at the same time. I am trying to encourage chases that are fun for both sides, while making it a priority for both sides to end the chase as early as possible.
DH at base with no other changes is ridiculous. DH at base when the survivors are as concerned about how long the chase is as the killer is seems less so, as it's primarily just a tool to extend a chase. Same with SC. It's useful, but time-consuming. That should be the strategic choice for everyone, not just the killer. Right now delays are just annoying for survivors because they have as much time as they want, which is why they complain about Legion and Ruin and Forever Freddy, etc.
Yes, there are other meta builds that exist that don't utilize BBQ. But what's the advice to a new killer starting out in terms of priority? Get BBQ as quickly as possible. The reason I include it at base is to also put more stakes on the chase - if gen repair becomes super important and getting hooked reveals everyone, you should try to not get hooked. From the killer's perspective, it provides an incentive to hook when a method is introduced for them to not necessarily have to.
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The problem is that it always feels like a loss if anybody gets away as a killer (aside from hatch escapes), and feels like a win if anybody gets away as a survivor. And when the game penalizes you when you do kill most of them in a way not recognized by the game as the right way to kill most of them - in a game where how you kill them is entirely reactive to what the survivors are doing - it just reinforces the dissatisfaction.
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@Dwinchester said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1336833#Comment_1336833
That's what made ruin so perfect, and their decision to change it so incredibly stupid. It bought you time, but you knew that time was limited, so tunneling or camping was a bad idea. If they wanted to change it, they should have just made it a timer.
My whole hangup on the timer is that it wouldn't do anything for killer. Any match that goes 15 minutes is already going to swing in killer favor.
How you make chases more rewarding is to make it where committing to one doesn't cost you the game. As killer, you can literally make a game ending mistake in 80 seconds. To do that, you either need to increase gen times, or make it so you can't chain loops together.
Well that's what I'm trying to do but in the opposite direction. Chases are fun, but they're also where the killer was supposed to have the advantage. They still kind of do, but it's a razor's edge. Mess up or chase for a little too long (and you'll only know when it's too late) and you've lost the game. Plus the development of looping as an established mechanic and the introduction of a number of survivability perks makes chases ever easier to extend.
I feel like there needs to be a mechanic so that survivors are encouraged to try and end chases early, too. Maybe if they had some time pressure too (and we reduce how easy scratch marks are to follow) then it wouldn't always be in the survivor's (as a whole) best interest to be pursued by a bloodthirsty monster murderer.
The problem with just changing gen speeds or how easy it is to kill a survivor is that it misses the mark and becomes an auto-win too easily with tiny changes either way, because it doesn't affect that fundamental dynamic. If it's easier for the killer to get that first kill, a bunch of games will get better but the balance swings way in the killer's favor and so the survivors will (rightfully) complain. If it's too hard, it's the opposite. And, given disparities in skill level, it just means a whole lot of dissatisfaction when everybody played well enough to be satisfied. The current dynamic is "all or nothing," and there's little pleasure in ending up a few spots down on the scoreboard.
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@Poweas said:
Adding DH and SC to default base survivor is a terrible idea, same for BBQ. Imagine if you combined Sprint Burst and DH, that'd be broken. SC at base just feels cheap, it's fine as it is. And BBQ at base also feels cheap.
You'd still be exhausted so it'd be a choice. And when 90% of killers all run the same perk it's probably a sign that it should just be a killer ability.
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@Dwinchester said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/159359/killer-vs-survivor-the-imbalance-is-pressure
I don't like it. The timer would have to be at least 15 minutes base, or a killer like Billy would be unstoppable. You wouldn't have to chase survivors, just find a 3 gen and run out the clock.
Ruin had this game as close to balanced as I've seen, it bought you time in the early game. All they need to do is slow down the early game a bit, make it feel like you're not at the mercy of survivors for time, and the game will be about perfect.
Good point. What if you just add another gen or two to the map so it becomes 4 or 5 gen instead of 3? Even just slowing down gen repair early game still leaves the incentive for killers to get an early kill, it just makes it easier for them to get it and/or potentially start snowballing. I'm thinking of a way to give incentives for just chasing in general, for killers, other than getting a down.
Right now a chase is win/win for survivors and win/lose for killers, and that's where I think a lot of the issues come from. Just making changes based on the survivability of survivors seems like it won't fix the fundamental issue.
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Killers don't generally like to tunnel (it's not "fun" for anybody) but if they don't get a death before 3 gens are done it goes from being an uphill battle to an Everest climb just to make it competitive. Making it harder to tunnel ignores the problem and attacks the symptom.
There's a fundamental issue with the game design that encourages "bad" killer behavior that has been band-aided by second chance perks, which only really serve to further encourage that behavior. And you can't fix it by just making gens take longer to complete, because that will give the killer too MUCH of an advantage for securing an early kill - it's just a band-aid in the other direction.
It's going to be extremely difficult to discourage tunneling because the only way to fix it would be a ground-up redesign of the overall gen completion mechanic. There needs to be some incentive for not tunneling.
My quick suggestion would be to make a weaker Hex: Ruin the default nature of generators and add a time-pressure situation for the survivors (similar to when the gates open) that in a 4v1 situation is pegged at 20 minutes or so, with 10 minutes added every time a survivor is killed. Don't escape by the timer end, Entity takes you (it always struck me as odd that the rules are set up as an Entity test for the killer and not the survivors, anyway). It should take slightly longer to heal yourself from dying (you should be able to do it while you crawl), but once you do, you can get up with no assistance. That would add an incentive for killers to roam and push people off gens and weigh the consequence of giving more time to the survivors vs taking one out of the game as fast as possible, without just making slugging the meta. It would also make gen rushing harder, as gen tapping would be counterproductive. I'd also probably increase the rate of gen repair with 2 or more survivors working together.
Obviously the numbers for gen regression and escape timer would have to be tuned, but something like this works better to encourage roaming killer behavior more than discourage the unwanted behavior of tunneling and camping. Injure hits would be more valuable as survivors wouldn't have unlimited time to hide and heal up, survivors would have to do more than just "there's a gen let's do it" - they'd have to consider the final 3 gen as much or more as the killer. And everybody would be under the time crunch, not just the killer - so you'd have less hunting down the killer to intentionally loop to waste his time and more looping as a function of survival.
It would, overall, be seen as a buff to killers I'm sure, but the problem with tunneling and camping is that survivors are too safe at the moment (not necessarily in terms of second chance buffs but in terms of pressure), which leads to HUGE incentives for killer to score as quick and easy kills as possible - and you get tunneling and camping. The only way to encourage killers to draw it out is to put them under less pressure to do the opposite, and the only way to do that is by putting more (some?) equalizing pressure on survivors. The killer just needs to know that harassing can potentially be as valuable as hooking.
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The killer would just sit at the hook to make sure, so unless it's just a bait for more eye roll shenanigans I don't see the point. I think that if the killer manages to get the final remaining survivor on a hook then it's free (whether it's first or last hook for the unlucky one). Think of it as the killer's 4% - the one time they get to put someone down and know they'll stay down, even though by that point it doesn't really matter.
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@SweetTerror said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1334954#Comment_1334954
Your experience mirrors mine almost to a T. The fact that playing as a literal killing machine is more stressful than playing as someone who has no weapons and no way to fight back, is the most asinine thing about dead by daylight. As a killer I would get matched against red rank survivors, but as a survivor I would get matched against a level 15 killer and other red rank survivors. It's absurd.
The only reason I play killer is because that's the role where you experience anything close to terror in this horror game.
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@NinjaDette1 said:
I have a love hate relationship with the pig.Don’t get me wrong as a doctor and survivor main.I get the killers goal is to kill.Most of the time though when going against the pig it makes me wish her characters speed was just a little decreased.I mean isn’t the pig the most notorious for tunneling besides ghostface?.
The Pig isn't fast so much as she's smaller than most killers so doesn't suffer as badly with the hitbox disparity. The reason she's notorious for tunneling is the unreliability of the headtraps - while rng based, they're generally SUPER easy to remove in time unless you make sure to harass the hat.
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@Deadman316 said:
It's the deranking killers that's screwing up the matchmaking for everyone. I'm a green rank survivor and I've gone up against prestiged killers and strong killers, both with learned perks and rare add-ons, and majority of them are no higher than rank 15. I'm not sure if the algorithm the game uses sees it as "well since they're good, we'll match all lower ranks with more skilled survivors, or if the devs changed something to make it a mixed bag of matchmaking. Either way, it's not good or fair to anyone just starting out with the game.
If killers are de-ranking en-masse enough to screw up matchmaking that should probably indicate to you a symptom of a problem more than a problem in and of itself.
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She works very well for survivors who can't/don't want to do anything but loop and/or rely on second chance perks. Pallets don't really bother her and she adds a tough element in the "mind game" of looping. She's usually going to hit you before you can Dead Hard, and the nature of her kit makes it very hard to tunnel enough for DS.
Survivors who know what Spirit does just keep their distance and play as if they don't want to engage a chase with her - in other words, they play like horror movie survivors and not Dead by Daylight survivors. When that's the case she can have a tough time as she doesn't want to use her power to close big gaps, she wants to conserve for short bursts. Without phase she's a one dimensional m1.
That said a coordinated swf will dump on her the same as they dump on anybody else if they're not being stupid.
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@Terra92 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1333445#Comment_1333445
I don't think pipping is arbitrary at all. You want a decent score. 20k is pretty good for a Survivor. 32k is a perfect game. When you end a match and everyone is below 15k, it doesn't feel like it was a good match, this is why no one likes Mori matches, because the score at the end is garbage, half the time the Killer gets like 15k while everyone else gets sub-10. In the same essence, gen rushing never feels like a good match was played. When gens start getting done too quickly I personally start doing secondary objectives or I try to find a chest or the Killer, see what's going on.
Honestly anyone who is trying to rush through the game doesn't understand how the system works, and are simply trying to "win." It's not about winning, it's never about winning. You ideally want to escape, but if you had a good match the points will reflect that, and you don't need to escape in order to have a near-perfect game. I've had 30k games and been death-hooked. I knew I had a good game but I never thought "oh man I lost! ugh what a garbage match."
The unfortunate reality that has been instilled upon us as the gaming community is that everything is win or lose, there's no in between. This is why League players call each other trash. This is why friendships are lost when friggin' Mario Party games turn sideways. We're so obsessed with this idea of "winning" that we don't have fun in the process. Dead by Daylight is a lot more fun when you don't put yourself in the mindset of winning. When you don't care if you escape, when you don't even consider an escape a win.
Pipping means doing a good job in the game. It's not an arbitrary thing, it's a valuable goal to have. It's certainly much better than escaping because you gen rushed and beat the game in 3 minutes. You can't speed run Dead by Daylight.
I can get a decent "score" as a killer getting run in circles around every pile of trash in the game and play pallet breaking simulator and not getting more than a 1k, if that. Doesn't feel like a good game to me. I suppose it makes sense that survivors also get multiple ways to feel like they did a good job, with the current state of the game design.