JustCats
JustCats
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@LALYTHIA said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1362350#Comment_1362350
Your argument that Killers camp/tunnel because of DS/BT is effectively nullified by what the person you're replying to posted...PH can completely avoid DS/BT - yet still, most PHs camp and tunnel. You further nullify this argument by then arguing the merits of camping/tunneling...proving it's a choice to ruin someone else's game - not something thrust upon Killers because of Survivors and their perks.
You can expect a Killer to legitimately chase and hook each survivor individually without camping and tunneling to ruin the sport of the game, the match for their opponent, and any challenge this game might present. Its a completely reasonable expectation and there are still some decent killers left out there who do play that way and they are appreciated, at least by me.
I am saying that perks like DS/BT encourage camping/tunneling because they make chases especially irritating and non-gratifying for killers. How do you reduce the number of chases you go on? Camp and/or tunnel. Your counter that since PH can completely avoid DS/BT (by tunneling and camping) and that most do invalidates this argument somehow, but I don't see how.
And my point was to say that the definition of camping and tunneling has become so expansive that it can literally mean not letting survivors escape out of politeness, at this point. Obviously face-camping is dumb before the gates open, but what is tunneling except chasing too much for any one particular survivor's taste? What is "proxy" camping except not being willfully ignorant for the benefit of survivors? The killer doesn't get any bp for sitting back and allowing a safe unhook out of the graciousness of his heart.
Why is it only a legitimate chase and hook if the killer intentionally plays it easy on survivors?
Yes, you can expect a killer to be gracious and polite and only in the game to provide entertainment for a bully squad of survivors who never feel any compunction about using questionable game mechanics in their favor, each and every time. Additionally, you can expect to be disappointed.
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@Yukihere said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1360871#Comment_1360871
Stats>anecdotal talking points (period), unless you adhere to tribalism, which is fine, because at least we'd know you're part of the flock.
Nurse should never have been introduced into the game, she's fundamentally broken. But judging from your 'insight' you weren't around for those discussions back in the day....
Next.
In such a subjective experience as a DbD match with the sheer number of unknown variables, pretty much any stats you get out of it are going to be either meaningless or able to be read in whichever direction you want. That's the thing about stats, you've got to use them really carefully, especially in the social sciences (and a multiplayer game like DbD bears a closer relationship to sociology than physics).
Balancing this kind of game is as much an art as it is a science.
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I love it for the aesthetic. The stair locations feel very annoying (I so wish I was halfway decent at Nurse), but the relative lack of trash piles to run in circles around is refreshing, so I'll take the trade. I do feel like it rewards macro decisionmaking much more than the micro, for both killer and survivor.
I think the map just highlights the core issues with DbD gameplay that can make both killer and survivor frustrating to play. Bandaid it with a map that's easier on survivors, killers hate it, and vice versa. This one feels like nobody has a good time which says more about the game, to me, than the map.
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In fairness the game is a lot more fun to play as a killer in the high purples than it is in red ranks, before every match becomes a sweaty meta genital measuring contest.
At very low ranks, killers have a pretty obscene advantage. At high ranks it super flips to the survivors. And honestly, high rank survivors are ridiculously toxic as a group. I'd be willing to bet that most of these de-rankers are just looking to get back to the sweet spot. I go up and down between rank 6 and 11 or so (relatively new so gotta grind all these level one dudes) and I can count on one hand the bad experiences I've had with mid to low ranked players, but am virtually guaranteed miserable toxicity from the red ranks that pop up, no matter if its one or more of them and it's a 4k or 4e (although the only times I'm told to kill myself for being such a terrible killer player is when I get the occasional 4k). They are, generally, the worst.
I know when I start seeing more reds than not and start getting hammered in games I'm never unhappy to sit back and play super casual/meme/afk and take a big 4 escape loss. Open the gates for em as soon as possible and skip the end game chat. This is a silly game to take competitively, I just want to be in a place that's fun. It doesn't bother me to try and learn and get better but I don't see any need to put up with the asinine bullying from high rank survivors.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1362286#Comment_1362286
Why do you think survivors run bt and ds? Cause killers camp and tunnel and since pyramid head release it shows that nonstop camp/ tunnel
LOL BT and DS just gave the killer even more reason to camp and/or tunnel. BT and DS work great - unless the killer tunnels or camps. The killer behavior you don't like is encouraged by cheese perks.
Look at it this way: when does a killer have the most advantage versus a survivor. When the survivor is on a hook, obviously, and when a survivor has exhausted all of their take-backsies. After that, is when the survivor is already injured. So they are going to look for opportunities to chase and hook injured targets. The killer's macro advantage grows when survivors are removed from the board. As far as tunneling goes - say as a survivor you have an equally risky choice of working on a new gen, or one that's already half done but regressing. Which one do you choose?
Why wouldn't you be polite to the killer and let the half done one regress all the way?
It's going to be difficult to fix this without a re-thinking of the core gameplay loop, but whatever PH's power was going to be, would end up being used by a significant number of killers to "tunnel" and/or camp. Because every killer's power gets used by a significant number of killers to "tunnel" and/or camp. And this is because killers have only one gameplay strategy available to them - show, chase, hook, wait. You can't expect them to voluntarily handicap themselves by not doing that, the same way I wouldn't expect a survivor to let a gen regress unless they have to.
Edit: Remember that your teammates are your most valuable asset and most valuable "perk" you could ever want, and the killer knows this. Play accordingly.
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Just a thought... maaaybe if all the survivor complaints seem to be about the lengths killers will go to in order to avoid cheese crutch perks like BT and DS then maaaaybe THAT's actually the problem?
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1361810#Comment_1361810
I don't know how the devs will measure with the MMR system. Nobody but them do, that's the point of it being a hidden MMR system. Those were some guesses my caffeine-addicted brain could come up with whilst writing that comment over the course of a minute. I'm sure BHVR have given it much more thought.
And again, community feedback is also taken into account, not just raw stats.
That's fair. I suppose my point is that it's fairly obvious the stuff's broken just with elementary observation of the game environment. All metrics and statistics are going to do is muddy the water and only ever be something to interpret as cause for inaction - paralysis by analysis, if you will.
If you balance based on a solo experience and limited information, then you have to do something when that is obviously not the case. Otherwise you just supercharge whatever's opposite the balance that limited information supplies.
Otherwise you get what we have now, which is essentially survivors getting to run more than 4 perks each, as they can share between them.
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Response was more to highlight the issues with relying on metrics in such a subjective gameplay experience. Escapes vs kills is about as poor a measure as I can think of and none of the others are going to give you a real clear picture of balance either.
The vast majority of perks are balanced with solo queue in mind. Take Spine Chill, for example. If one person runs it, that's fine in solo queue and the perk works as intended. If the survivor can say to his 3 friends, "the killer is looking at me" then all four survivors effectively run Spine Chill. All of the recon perks that have a built in pro/con have their con invalidated and all of the crutch perk cons of requiring specific triggers are minimized. Because you can just tell your friends. You don't need an Excel spreadsheet to know that's busted.
You might be able to use raw data to convince yourself that's not a problem, no attention necessary, which is apparently the dev MO. But you tell me - is a long chase more positive than a short one? Is a short game a better experience than a long one? Every one of those metrics you provided have a giant "it depends" asterisk in terms of determining "is this healthy or unhealthy."
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
Okay so.
The devs have said, many times, that by stats alone SWF and solo aren't that far apart. Now everyone knows this to be false, so they're taking this into account as well.
When the MMR system releases this will give them more metrics to judge survivors and killers on. For example, going by escapes and kills alone they're close. Going by game length, how long each person was hooked, how long each gen took, how long each chase was, who saved who, did they go down taking a protection hit, did they die unhooking, were the first hooked or three hooked, they'll be able to analyse this issue in a lot more depth.
If it continues to seem balanced, then I don't know what they'll do, probably nothing.
If it becomes unbalanced, they will take action.
This is what they've always done (eventually).
This was answered in their QNA from home which me and Fibijean did a summary of. I know you know this, since you took my paraphrased words as the devs' own ones and then tried to make false claims over this.
It isn't new information. The devs are aware.
They could just try playing the game.
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They just need to disable 1 perk slot for each additional party member. Comms are inevitable, but SWF shouldn't get 16 perk slots to share.
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Take-backsie cheese perks (or abilities, in this case) suck whether you're killer or survivor. I guess take solace that that's pretty much the majority of top tier survivor perks? Every survivor is basically the Doctor.
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It's not like it's a secret when the killer uses a mori, I don't understand why it's an issue. Just play like you're afraid of the killer for once and it should be fine. You might not win as easily but the killer's still got to catch and hook you, then down you again to use it. Just... don't let him do that? If he's tunneling/camping the mori doesn't really save that much time so just play like you would vs a killer who tunnels/camps.
Personally I like moris just so I can turn off all the dumb survivor BM in advance and play a game where it doesn't take three times longer than it should to kill someone (cause of passive "nevermind you didn't actually get me perk stacking) every now and then. I generally save the actual mori effect for the flashlight clickers and teabaggers, if they weren't paying attention, or for when it becomes apparent that they're all stacking get-out-of-jail-free cards, but most of the time it's just a loading screen threat to ward off the incessant bullying behavior from normally too safe survivors.
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@LALYTHIA said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1358923#Comment_1358923
Yes, camping and tunneling are indeed toxic behaviors and they actually ruin people's progress in the game with little to no recourse by the survivor themselves. Where as anyone can ignore post-game chat and it has no bearing on your in-game progress whatsoever. Also, slugging can certainly be toxic depending upon how it is used.
So when, in your definition is someone tunneled? When are they camped? When is slugging toxic? Because that's going to be different for every individual survivor. How, as a killer, am I supposed to know when I cross the line and the survivor's feelings are hurt?
Killers have one thing they can do (show, chase, hook, wait) in order to create dead survivors, which is their only objective. Tunneling/camping/slugging are just survivor words to describe when they do too much of the one thing they can do, and the threshhold is different for every survivor. Hell, I've seen complaints about "proxy" camping, which if I have it right, is when the killer doesn't just totally abandon a hooked survivor.
Being polite enough as a killer to satisfy survivors is an unwinnable game.
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@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1360618#Comment_1360618
There's nothing unsportsmanlike about pressing the advantage. Play literally any team sport and accuse the other team of poor sportsmanship for playing in a way your team can't handle. You'll be laughed out of the field.
Not to mention in a game that's literally about removing survivors from the board, saying its unsportsmanlike to do that just sounds weird.
They gasp and cry super loud when they're injured for a reason... they're vulnerable. It's so a killer can find and kill them easier - an injured survivor is supposed to be the one targeted. It's not a scream to alert you to be polite.
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Tunneling is just when a survivor feels like they were chased too much. It's impossible to know when and where that line is drawn as it's going to differ for every individual survivor.
As a killer, you have only one objective (kill all the survivors) and only one way to do it (show, chase, hook, wait). Don't let a survivor tell you that you did too much of your only thing you can do to accomplish your only objective.
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I've only played it once so far and it took me the first five minutes to find the friggin stairs, lol (of course once I did it was a 'duh' moment). Obviously I didn't manage more than 1k but I sincerely appreciate the aesthetic, at the least. I got to really inspect a lot of it while listening to generators getting completed upstairs.
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The game is honestly a lot more fun and balanced at the lower ranks anyway (win or lose). That's my solace in a killer loss, personally.
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Does it even matter? Game's more inclusive now, that's great. What difference does it make if it's what their leadership truly believes in their heart of hearts, lol. I play their game, I don't hang out with the CEO.
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FWIW I think Spine Chill would actually be a great start to fleshing out and encouraging more creativity and actual skill in regards to both survivor and killer gameplay, which is kind of my design quibble overall with the game. Like I said before, too many perks (particularly though not exclusively survivor perks) are lobby outplays that don't require anything from the actual player in the game.
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@Chewy102 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1354848#Comment_1354848
What would stop a surrender option from being the next DC? It would be almost the exact same thing we had before of people quitting out the instant they didn't like anything that happened.
Got downed too fast? Surrender. Killer someone you don't like? Surrender. Killer attempting to slug for one reason or another? Surrender.
DbD will be EXACTLY like it was before DC punishments was a thing. People quitting out over the slightest thing ending up ruining the gameplay for everyone else.
Look. DC punishments are needed. This community simply isn't able to control itself and forced the devs to add DC punishments. If the devs add in a surrender option, it will for a 100% fact be the new DC and abused as much as possible. That isn't a guess, that isn't my opinion. That WILL happen! Hell. Some people already attempt to bypass the DC punishments in order to still quit out of any game they don't like. Be it just eating the DC punishment, killing themselves on hook ASAP, or going AFK.
Pretty sure you could have it only available when certain conditions are met, it doesn't need to be a minute-one availability. If all the survivors are slugged - oh an option to surrender. If four survivors are alive and uninjured and they're on last gen - ok, I lost gg. There are some pretty established threshholds for not having much of a chance in this game and having the option to forfeit at that point would be nice.
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@SirCracken said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1354852#Comment_1354852
Objectively incorrect. If you've read anything on this thread, you'd know by now how badly the perk is designed.
One of those concerns is the level of attention in these forums. I've found the exact same arguments over and over again, and I keep giving my counter arguments, but no one reads them and I just get more of the same.
Why are so many people commenting when they have no idea what they are commenting about?
Couple of reasons - one, it's the internet. Two, I'd guess that a fair number really like Spine Chill for the exact reasons it's busted.
And you'll always have the internet strongmen looking for an excuse to say "quit whining I'm so awesome nothing gets in my way IM NUMBER ONE IM NUMBER ONE you must be beta lmao."
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@FreakPrince said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1354840#Comment_1354840
Oh, so the reason here is that you don’t want to adapt to a perk that not even a lot of survivors use... now I get it.
Spine Chill is a counter to stealth killers, just as many other perks in the game counters something else. It’s not like DS where you literally don’t have a choice.
No, I don't mind adapting to something that not a lot of survivors use. I don't mind adapting to something that a lot of survivors use. My god, did you read any of the thread? I don't think it's good design to push all killers to adapt that severely to a lobby perk that is largely unidentifiable in the course of the game. It's not just a counter to killers with stealth as part of their kit, it's a counter to any kind of LOS blocking stealthy gameplay from any killer, which just reinforces the already one-dimensional killer gameplay loop.
DS is a different story and honestly not horrendously designed on its own, as it's got pretty specific triggers - you know when you're at risk for DS and can play appropriately in those situations. You're always constantly at risk playing against Spine Chill and have to play like it no matter what - even if no survivors are using it. That's plain and simple poorly designed.
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I'm 110% down with a surrender option that doesn't carry a DC penalty; would do wonders for toxic behavior from both teams.
FYI I feel the same way when I get obliterated for whatever reason and open the gates for four healthy survivors and have to sit and wait while they... I guess teabag each other... while I go into a corner to AFK the EGC. I have never once not had the timer run to the very last possible second.
It's not incredibly common but I'd imagine me letting 4 survivors go probably happens more than your whole team getting slugged with nobody running any perks to combat it, so I suppose count your blessings.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1354832#Comment_1354832
Not too difficult on platforms or regions or even ranks that have low population. Especially when they can communicate with each other to queue at the same time.
There have been times where I would play a match, and then get one, two, or even all three survivor members I had in my previous match(es) multiple times in a row. Sometimes the same killer, too.
Huh. I guess I never paid that much attention.
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@FreakPrince said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1354825#Comment_1354825
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1354828#Comment_1354828
And the argument is: You want it changed simply because YOU want it too. Because YOU think it’s unfair and I don’t.
I never said your opinion wasn’t valid, I just mocked because I think it’s a joke.
That only makes sense if you completely ignore the design points made. We can disagree that one potential lobby choice perk shouldn't require every killer on the roster to alter their movement and vision to try to counter if they're planning on applying any kind of stealth to their hunt, but you haven't given anything resembling a reason why that's fine except that you don't care.
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How is a killer and a survivor team getting into the same match - period - with much less the same otherwise random player enough times for it to be an issue?
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@FreakPrince said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1354808#Comment_1354808
So I was wrong about your rank, my bad. But you said it yourself. You are in the red ranks but you don’t BELONG there. That explains why you think Spine Chill needs to be nerfed.
If you struggle to win because of that perk, seriously, just... lmao
Yo not everybody who notices a poorly designed perk or has a suggestion to make something better is voicing it because they're butthurt about losing to it.
I've never even thought twice about Spine Chill but the dude is correct. It's poorly designed, end of story. If you have an actual argument for why it isn't that doesn't boil down to I'M SO ELITE I GET 5Ks WITH NO PERKS WHAT ARE YOU A NOOB>?!??? then feel free to contribute. Otherwise, chill out with that red rank brown rank bullcrap.
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@SirCracken said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1354807#Comment_1354807
A change I'd like to see is have the perk disabled until activated manually. It then stays active for a set amount of time until its duration runs out and it goes on cooldown.
Hell, it could even be like a mini-exhaustion perk, and gives you small exhaustion duration each time you use it.
That works too - we need more perks like Dead Hard (that require active input for the benefit) and less "lobby outplay" in general, since we can't see builds pre-game.
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@SirCracken I just wouldn't respond to the "get good" stuff, regardless of what your rank is. Along the same lines of it being bad design to have a perk that requires the entire killer roster to alter their movement patterns and limit their field of view just in case someone is running an otherwise perfect early warning system, the argument that you can't see bad design for what it is unless you're super pro is equally shoddy.
This game is incredibly simplistic in terms of design. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it doesn't take an engineering degree or a super black belt rank to see how the parts could fit together a little better.
Just identify when it's most important to have Spine Chill running and trigger it based on that. Maybe when a gen you're working on is 90/80/70 completed, so you can take the risk that the TR already massively reduces for you and squeeze out that last little bit, if you just can't be bothered to use your eyeballs.
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@deadbyhitbox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1354690#Comment_1354690
It counters stealth killers but have you ever thought that simply turning your camera if you're going to a gen nullifies SC entirely?
Right, but you have to do that whether they are running SC or not, because there's no way to know.
Stealth killers have abilities in their kit designed to help them sneak up on survivors. They still require subtlety and finesse to use well. The counter to stealth killers? Press one button before the game starts and you never have to worry about them much again, unless the killer hamstrings their visuals every time they approach a gen. The survivor never has to do anything to counter. It's a requirement that the killer use his abilities well, and respond to a counter well, while expecting nothing from the survivor.
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@icemancat said:
Let's see what Spine Chill can do for someone.
Spine Chill can notify the user when the killer is coming towards them, but not the exact direction. Also, Spine Chill can give a slight bonus in action speed including repair, healing, sabotage, unhooking, vaulting, cleansing, exit gate opening, and chest search speeds by 2%/4%/6% for each tier (thank you dbd wiki). Also, an experienced player can make good use of the extra chance for skill checks to hit great skill checks more frequently, making gens get completed slightly faster. Spine Chill can also counter stealth killers depending on what the killer does.
However, Spine Chill still has its drawbacks.
Spine Chill is able to be completely countered if the killer does not look at the survivor. One way to do this is if you're making your way towards a generator where you suspect survivors are working. Try to estimate when you are about 40 meters away from the survivor repairing and begin to look slightly away from the generator's aura while at the same time, keep making your way towards the generator. Stealth killers will have the easiest time doing this due to their lower terror radius and in some cases, their lower profiles (Pig and Ghostface). This counter can still work even if the killer you're playing has a regular terror radius. For this example, let's say you're in the end game collapse and a survivor with Spine Chill is halfway done with opening the gate. You're about 32 meters away from them and you have two options: You can either look directly at the survivor opening the gate or look away. Looking at the survivor might end up giving them that little boost from Spine Chill they needed to end up escaping, giving them the escape while looking slightly away from them can deny them the escape. It's these little things that can make the difference in a game.
To answer your question, while I believe Spine Chill is a relatively strong and versatile perk, I haven't noticed anything too powerful about Spine Chill that would require it to be nerfed.
Right. It's an always-on enhanced terror radius that forces every killer (and especially stealth killers) to approach every gen without being able to get a full visual from their limited first person perspective. And it does this without even being needed to be in a survivor's kit, as there is never any indication that any of the survivors are running it. It's not like Nurse's Calling, where there are definite context clues that the killer can see you.
Survivors feel one step ahead of you? Maybe it's luck, maybe they saw you - um, since you already have the TR and red stain and they've got a 3rd person view - maybe they're good and paying great attention. Or, maybe the game just tells them exactly when they need to start running no matter what, regardless of how hunter/stalker you're trying to be. Guess I have to moonwalk or strafe everywhere just in case.
It forces a major change in killer behavior, with a significant downside for them (not being able to keep my eyes peeled sucks), and it doesn't need to be run on a survivor to still be effective. It's a pretty big hand holder.
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I watched the intro cinematic for the first time in forever the other day - what a cool game that looked like to play.
This addiction to hand-holding safety (an even bigger terror radius that tells you when you're in actual super danger and not just maybe super danger, for crying out loud) when you could accomplish the same thing by... looking around with your 3rd person freaking camera, lol, is what makes survivor a bore to play and killer frustrating.
Yeah, sometimes a gen is next to a LOS block which could potentially make you nervous if you're inside the killer's TR. Shouldn't you be nervous? No? I've got to run a killer whose kit is designed around being stealthy literally backwards across the map cause.. why now?
It's cool if it's got some sort of trigger condition - on a sacrifice or a hook you have 30 seconds or so of enhanced terror. But an always-on passive is just dumb.
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Not sure what the point of trying to include stealth killers is if you're going to have always-on passives like that.
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The primary issue with additional objectives is really that killers have no way of working towards their objective without 100% successful quick chases. Gen speeds aren't really too slow, in other words, killers are (not in terms of walkspeed). Survivors are bored with gen repair probably because the current meta makes it too easy. You don't have to care much if the killer shows because wasting their time in a chase is like, the number one thing that helps you.
I am not sure that adding another means for survivors to prolong chases really addresses the underlying issue.
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@Onyx_Blue I... don't know how to make it simpler for you. I don't mean this as an insult but I've tried to make it as A+B=C as possible. The killer has very little variety in gameplay. Yes, each ability makes things slightly different, but ultimately - for the most part - it boils down to show (hi it's me the killer), chase (picks a survivor and runs after them), and hook (if successful and the survivor gets downed). Again, whatever ability the killer may have will make the chase slightly different, but 1. the survivor immediately knows what that mechanic is and 2. for the most part none of them impact the core gameplay of the chase.
Survivors choose how the chase goes, every time. Do I use this loop, do I drop this pallet, do I use this window, do I try to get away or do I keep him on the leash, do I flashlight, do I locker stun, etc., etc.. In other words, killers have a single mode of play and it is entirely reactive, whereas survivors have multiple modes and has a healthy mix between proactive and reactive. Killers play the game that survivors give them. In addition to that, a chase is only beneficial to the killer if it is 100% successful. If a survivor is not hooked, then the killer gets virtually nothing in exchange for a large chunk of time he gave to the rest of the survivors to complete their objective. With that set of circumstances, the only real proactive gameplay the killer has - where he has agency - is when they camp, tunnel, or slug. It's the only avenue where the game isn't just about four people trying to waste one person's time.
I hope that makes sense for you. If it does not, I don't know any other way to explain it. You'll have to take my word for it; agency and feedback loops are not particularly esoteric design concepts and DbD, with it's simplistic gameplay loop, wears them on its sleeve.
I am saying that adding some time pressure to the survivors would open up gameplay options for killers as well as make the game more strategic for survivors. I am not looking to make killer easier. I don't find killer particularly hard (this isn't a game that takes any real skill), it's more that I find it unpleasant. There's very little room for creativity and it is incredibly constrained.
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@Onyx_Blue said:
What about the game encourages camping and tunnelling?
Not really the case for DBD though, what with every killer being different and there being 69 perks to choose from. Nothing about dbd encourages camping, tunnelling and slugging.
I mean... read the OP? The killer has one objective and only one method to accomplish it. Show, chase, hook. The killer is highly rewarded for removing a survivor from the map, and greatly penalized if they're not able to before 3 gens pop.
The survivors have multiple ways to frustrate their one and only gameplay mechanism, so playing "fair" is an exercise in frustration as the survivors always know what the killer is going to do and the killer has to make many guesses as to what the survivors are going to do.
I get that you're a fan of DbD and that's cool - but it's got loads of flaws. One is that the core gameplay loop of the game encourages scummy play. If it didn't... it wouldn't be much of a thing...
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Why not just make it so if a killer hits you, the killer dies?
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I think in large part the Survivor's Guide exists and there's so much salt when a killer uses "scummy" tactics because a decent team of survivors should pretty much never lose, with the way the game is stacked against the killer. All the killer really gets to do is capitalize on bad survivor decisions - and it sucks to lose when you're the odds on favorite.
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@Clevite said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1353841#Comment_1353841
Saw that and thought the same thing, looks a little campy there.
Killers get to do one thing, and one thing only in this game. Show, chase, hook, wait for survivor to be sacrificed. It's more fun, I'm sure, if the killer waits for the survivor to be sacrificed by getting a head start on the next one thing they can do, but I don't think it's possible to do "too much" of that one thing. Generally it's probably a bad strategy, but at what point are killers supposed to take a break and stop doing their one thing?
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I don't need killer to be any easier or any harder, I'd just like it to be less one-dimensional and frustrating. The game feels more like a low rent Looney Tunes race than an asymmetric horror game.
When survivors know that all the killer can do is show, chase, hook, and the game gives them tool after tool to make that one thing the killer can do as irritating as possible, most games are just an exercise in frustration. I can't think of the last game I played where it wasn't jjust a swarm of survivors looking to run me through a gauntlet of trash. Avoiding pallets, avoiding flashlights, avoiding hook sabos, avoiding strong loops - when I play killer it feels like I'm being hunted.
But that's what happens when the other team knows you have one thing and one thing only you can do. Show, chase, hook. I do wish there was another way to pursue my objective that didn't play right into the survivor's hands. Or that survivors had something else they had to get done that put some time pressure on them, so that the game wasn't entirely, literally, about four people doing everything they can to waste one person's time. I get enough of that at work.
It's not that gens repair too fast, it's that it's too easy to make the killer slow at the only thing they can do in the game.
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"I have to do what to unlock all the perks?"
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@Onyx_Blue I'm not saying that camping/tunneling/slugging are necessarily good strategies, just that they are strategies and ones that survivors (and killers, honestly) don't enjoy. And it's not uncommon to see them as a survivor, and as killer the game definitely pushes you towards them.
I am not saying that players are forced into using those strategies, I am saying that the game design encourages them.
And playstyles are absolutely framed by game design... that's sort of... basic.
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@thrawn3054 That's why the rest of the post says that scratchmarks need to go and methods to escape chases need to be introduced at the same time you give killers the ability to do something other than show, chase, hook to be productive. Right now, no, if a killer tunnels you they have you forever and it's just a matter of time. Which is why it's low-rent NASCAR/Looney Tunes and not horror movie monster - the incentive is to maintain the chase as long as you can to waste as much time as possible, for the survivor, and to end the chase ASAP or lose the game for the killer.
This is not a very scary or tense dynamic. I'm not about buffing killers to make them stronger or auto-4k, I'm about rebalancing the dynamic to make them scary. If it was at least as valuable to not be seen or to escape a chase as soon as possible, while a killer could work towards their objective without needing a 100% successful chase, then there'd be less camping/tunneling and overall scummy behavior in general.
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@PalletsAndHooks said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1353362#Comment_1353362
Agree with everything you said except about camping. Tunneling is abhorrent, but they're the same vein.
Camping is designed to punish Survivors, who believe they are going to spank the Killer with an ez unhook recovery. There is law found in this concept assuming all player skill levels are at least acceptable, if not ideal. Tunneling is an extension of this concept. The game seems to me, to be designed so that the survivor team will almost never fully recover after the first hook, however the means of escape can still be within reach if survivors are working on their objectives or enduring and sharing the burden of the chase.
Only Survivors can empower camping. Only a selfish teammate can allow tunneling. These are laws, not simply actions the community evokes as emotional or skill-based detriments describing a certain playstyle of killer. These incidents usually speak more to the Survivor's inabilities than the Killers lack of skill.
It's pretty easy for the survivor side to recover from the first hook - it's the first death that starts to turn things to the killer's advantage. That's part of where camping comes from. The other motivation is just frustration, as the killer's invariable gameplay isn't very rewarding unless it's entirely successful.
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1353404#Comment_1353404
If the dev's had given survivors anything else to protect themselves looping wouldn't be needed. Makes me want to play F13 again.
They have other things they can do, but there's nothing as effective as looping when it comes to advancing their objective.
Scratchmarks need to be severely reduced and escaping a chase needs to be encouraged more than maintaining one, the way it is now.
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It's a min/max strategy that crops up once everybody knows the score. Killers can't do anything except show/chase/hook. They get their advantage once survivors start dying.
Tunneling and camping are just doing "too much" of the only thing killers can do. If they had other, equally productive ways to affect the outcome of the match, you'd see less of it. Unfortunately, with the level of second chance perks that survivors can load up on, chasing is usually a win/win for survivors at this point unless the killer gets a down.
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@Onyx_Blue said:
Nothing about the current state of the game encourages tunneling and camping. Having interactive chases with all the survivors is the best and most fun way to play dbd. If people tunnel and camp then that's just them being trash at killer. Pressure isn't hard, and the killer gameplay is far from boring with it's repetitiveness. These changes wouldn't be good, and your reasoning behind them leads me to assume certain things about your level of play at killer. A killer that has active pressure on the map, currently, IS doing progress towards their objective of hooking and killing the survivors, since the longer the match goes on, the more it favours them achieving that objective. Why would you think that it doesn't?
The longer the match goes on the more opportunities the killer has to down and hook somebody, yes, but the longer the match goes on the more progress can be made towards the generators - match length doesn't really favor either side.
I understand the temptation to just say "git gud" but that's not really the feedback I'm looking for. I'm average at both killer and survivor, but see these fundamental issues cropping up the better I get. The game works fine - better even - when you're worse at it. The solution isn't to just get pro as these issues are min/max issues and just get worse as you get better.
Yes, tunneling and camping are symptoms of problems with the game design. They are both "too much" of the only thing the killer can do. I didn't say it was boring I said it wasn't varied enough. The best way for a killer to put pressure on the map is to remove survivors. The best way for survivors to complete their objective is to waste the killer's time. The survivor knows the killer has no other options... and so does the killer. Therefore, survivors load up on chase/hook perks and killers start to tunnel and camp more often than they would if they were just "trash" killers.
Time pressure is the only real pressure in this game, after a certain point. Once survivors figure out what they can do and once killers figure out that they only have one thing they can do, it just becomes a race with one side entirely controlling the finish line.
If the response is just that these ideas are not good because I'm bad, then save it. If there's an actual issue with the design idea, I'm all ears.
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I think that they should just make totems respawn after a certain period of time, so it would be more like a cooldown than a disable. It'd add some strategy to clearing them and provide a little more wax and wane to the killer's power rather than an instant neuter. Also make for some pretty harrowing and frantic end-game and EGC moments.
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Of course I understand why people use them - they're get-out-of-jail-free cards.
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As every bad sport knows, the best time to gloat is when you've already won. If you started the EGC when the last gen was completed that would take away from the 4v1 bullying experience.