JustCats
JustCats
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@I_Teabag_Gate said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1333587#Comment_1333587
Two of us are very good players. I'm a rank 1 survivor and killer on PC and Console. The other is probably a better looper than me.
SWF with good players and good communication is obviously going to lead to a higher than average escape ratio. I think 2.36 is a very reasonable number.
It's also worth noting survivors on console have it easier because console killers have to deal with framerate issues while this isn't a common issue on the survivor side.
I'm not saying you're bad by any means. I just wish there was a mechanism in place to limit the advantage. Ideally, if the game was fair you'd average a 2k flat, and less than that given the info about playstyle (non-optimized, but high risk).
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If they made survivors less safe so they were less willing to attempt an unhook with the killer standing there it'd probably go a long way. The main reason killers camp is because it's mostly frustrating and counterproductive to chase for any significant period of time (of course, when they do, now it's "tunneling"). Survivors have so many ways to avoid getting downed so chases often end up annoying more than anything else - and because they have all those tools the killer knows that they're liable to try to unhook a dude even if they're standing right there, so why bother with the extra effort.
The disincentive to camping is to make chasing more fun and more worth it for the killer.
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It's a little troublesome that you perform significantly better than 2k on average playing not tryhard, but also overly altruistic. I would imagine that a reasonably casual ("we don't play ultra sweaty") but high risk ("we will try to save each other no matter the cost") approach should generally land you somewhere under 2k as an average. And it's typically just a 3-man.
In other words - what happens to that average when a 4 man swf takes it seriously and doesn't make extra risky plays?
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@Terra92 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1333410#Comment_1333410
Actually we're not. If all four survivors did one generator and then we all got together to finish the final one, didn't heal, didn't get totems, didn't get into chases or unhooked anyone, and all four of us escaped, we would all depip. There's no reward for gen rushing, aside from getting into another match quickly. The longer you play a match the more points you get, the more points you get the more likely you are to get one or two pips, or if it was a bad game for you you'll at least safety pip.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1333399#Comment_1333399
Heeeey, Trapper. Yeaaaah I'm gonna need you to work late tonight. Yeaaaah we've had some layoffs, so work's been a little slow around here.
Also if you could work over the weekend? Yeaaah that'll be great. Thanks buddy.
I'm talking in terms of winning the game and escaping more than pipping, which is sort of an arbitrary thing that doesn't mean much.
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It's already fixed by just winning the game if they do it?
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I think the point is that survivors simply doing the easiest and smartest thing - all going to a gen themselves and start working on it - literally the most basic way to approach the game as a survivor, means the killer has to work extra hard comparatively. In other words, if the survivors do the easiest thing, the killer has to do a harder thing. It's when survivors do dumb things that the game gets easier for the killer. A lot of times it feels like the trial is more about survivors being able to stay on task and not get ADD than anything else.
Maybe the Entity is actually just an infernal mid-level manager just trying to get his demonic TPS reports done and just needs to get those generators going to power on the devil's printer. Killer's just a supervisor.
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It sucks when a literal ghost monster starts chasing you I guess.
Spirit isn't an auto-win, she's definitely got downsides and generally takes quite a bit of practice to both manage and utilize her power effectively. Waste her phase on long jumps and she's super one-dimensional. Her biggest advantage is that most survivors are locked into looking for "loop or die" close range chases which play right into conserving phase charge for short strikes.
Pay attention to the map, stay as far away as you can, and push her to use up phase charge to try and catch up to where she thinks you are. If Spirit blows a chase she's in a worse position than most killers cause she'll generally have no idea where to go. You want her afraid to phase cause she'll lose you, and standing at a pallet is the worst way to do that.
It's kind of extra snowflake to throw matches as a survivor cause you aren't creative and don't want to try. Sorry it's annoying that you can't run in the same circles the same way you can with most of the other killers.
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@LALYTHIA said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331716#Comment_1331716
No, it's not fair that half of the palette resources survivors have aren't ACTUALLY useful at all. If anything the killer had only worked 50% of the time or less, they would riot in these forums. Survivors have palettes and windows. That's it. Now maps have more and larger dead space zones - often flanking an area where the only resource is a palette, which is unsafe. When that one resource fails to function as it's supposed to, that's a problem. You weren't out played by a killer, because of latency and hit priority, in an area where your only resource was an unsafe palette that dictates you're going to take a hit even when you make the correct play.
Killers have plenty of in-chase advantage - especially right now. Infinite loops have been significantly reduced. There are some pretty stupendous dead zones on legacy maps now. Even before that, patches had already address window/palette combinations and reduced their spawn. There's now a lot more unsafe palettes - which we have already covered why these are killer-centric. This is before you take into consideration that killers are faster than survivors baseline and gain bloodlust the longer a chase ensues.
Outside of chases all killers have access to resources that allow them plenty of advantage at other objectives. BBQ Chilli, Nurses, Whispers, Discordance, Surveillance, in addition to killer base kit powers like stalks which will tell you if a survivor you can't see is in an area.
I am so tired of hearing that survivor is boring and easy and that's why people play Killer. This is just a blatant bias because you are a Killer main - and I say that because I have the exact same bias. I find Killer to be the far less stressful role. I don't find it to be fun or challenging. I have absolutely no issue 4king when I play Killer and doing so doesn't make me feel particularly good. So much so that when I play Killer I don't kill anyone just to see if I can do so and still PIP - and I usually do. That's not enjoyable for me, which is why I don't main Killer. And like you, I am not a "god level killer". I just don't find it difficult and I am not nearly as stressed about it because it's not my main.
You may find survivor boring, and that's fine, but there is nothing easy about being a survivor just like I can acknowledge that there's nothing other people find too easy about being Killer. And while you, as a self proclaimed killer main, might enjoy the fact that unsafe palettes are really a broken feature of the game right now - for a survivor main having nonfunctional resources take the place of functional ones when so many elements of your environment were already changed in favor of your opponent is just plain stupid and not particularly fun in any way.
Chases are what make this game so much fun and so exciting. How fun/exciting is it to have a chase end early - not because you were out played by someone - but because someone who is already baseline faster than you gets priority due to latency across resources that are already inherently riskier to use. That's not fun, it's broken.
This game has gotten exponentially more killer-friendly over the last 2 years. If you quit the game because they fix latency and hit priority - I guess that's on you. My queue as survivor is about 60 seconds, so feel free to do what you gotta do, bruh.
I started the game as survivor with the intention of being a survivor main. I'm not a great survivor, but I'm good enough that there's no tension, there's no anxiety, there's no real feeling of competitiveness. If killers did have some tremendous advantage in a chase, I'd be worried about getting spotted as a potato survivor, but after a couple games that quickly went away. Yeah, killers are slightly basegame faster, but hitboxes mean that I can always cut corners tighter. I've got third person so even that's easier to manage. And I probably lose most of my chases eventually anyway, but I don't feel any real incentive to actually escape. If I waste enough time, the survivors win - it's actually better if I don't lose the killer and get another 30 seconds of time.
I tried killer out of curiosity and found some sort of urgency and adrenaline. It's cool that you find it less stressful... but I'm not sure how. Different strokes, I guess, but that doesn't seem to be the general consensus. I've spent more time on killer and I'm a killer main cause that's what I play, but ideally I'd want to be a survivor.
As a killer, I don't personally care if those pallets are made safer or not. I do fine, this isn't a complicated game. I get my kills, I get my escapes, and I haven't hit a matchmaking wall. But as a killer I'm also aware that in pretty much all of my games there's at least one player eager to bait chases. As a killer I'm aware that it never really feels like I've hunted anyone down, cause most of the time survivors come to me.
I want less safety for survivors as a survivor player. I'm not a killer main cause it's my preference, I'm a killer main cause that's the least "safe" role in the game, and I didn't buy a horror game to feel safe. I play survivor games when I'm eating, for crying out loud, or when I'm watching youtube on the other monitor. I also do fine. I get killed, I escape, I haven't hit a matchmaking wall.
And to suicidefox - I AM NOT ASKING FOR CHASES TO BE A STRAIGHT LINE AUTO-DOWN OR THE REMOVAL OF ALL PALLETS. I am saying that I do not want more safety for survivors than they already currently have. I think looping is dumb and not much of a test of skill, yes, as both survivor and as killer (it's not like you make the loop you just run through it and guess which way your opponent is going to go - the skill is just pattern recognition that comes with repeated exposure). However, I don't mind that it exists at all. I just don't want that to be everything.
There is more potential depth to this game beyond looping, and that's why I like Hawkins and Saloon as both a killer and a survivor, as there's less of that on those maps and more of everything else. They're easier as killer, yeah, but that's because most players are locked into a 'loop or die' mentality. I prefer to play those maps as a survivor.
And yeah, if this game becomes completely about spinning in circles then it won't be for me. That's pretty much why I'm saying anything, cause I think this game can be more than that and I enjoy the rest of it.
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So we just want to make every unhook a safe unhook no matter what?
Here's the anti-camp idea. If the killer is face camping, just go do the gens and win the game. It's also the anti-tunneling idea.
That's the thing, guys. While you're frustrated not being able to unhook your friends underneath the killer, the killer just sees people swarming the hook. Do you want him to just leave? If you're constantly unhooking as soon as he turns a corner, the killer's not going to leave to go search for more survivors cause he knows you're right there. Should he just pretend to be an idiot? If no gens are popping when a chase starts going long, there's no reason to abandon the chase. If you're running next to an injured survivor, the killer's going to target the injured survivor. Is the monster supposed to just have mercy?
If camping and/or tunneling prevents you from winning the game, it's what the killer should have done to win - and the survivors likely enabled it.
If it's truly a grief face-camping, or truly a grief tunneling, just go win the game. Killers don't tend to enjoy 1k's so they'll either learn to get better or get bored quickly by the amount of work it takes to have a minor negative impact on one person's day.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1332753#Comment_1332753
"actually believe it or not, the game is supposed to be killer heavy."
ACTUALLY BELIEVE IT OR NOT, it's not.
The game is a PvP not PvE. It's supposed to be balanced for both sides. Killer is already an unstoppable force that persists throughout the entire trial. Survivors can be REMOVED FROM THE GAME. That right there is why the whole 1v4 thing is not a problem. Because it's not a real 1v4. Survivors are not a team. They have the same goals but if you die it doesn't affect me except making it harder for me to survive. But you can die and I can escape. You depip while I pip. Our fates are not tied together. Hell I can sandbag you or rat you out to the killer and get rewarded for it. I can leave you to bleed out on the ground while I hide and wait for hatch. I can just YEET out the game with a key and leave you without a care. I can be as much of your enemy as the killer.
So when survivors can literally get each other killed, and can be removed from the game reducing it to a 1v3 then 1v2 then 1v1, THE GAME IS NOT A REALY 1v4! It's just not. The idea it is comes from killer mains that just use it to justify removing all the defenses survivors have so they can get more 4ks. Tell me no and you are lying.
Just because you can be a bad teammate doesn't mean you're not on a team. This is kind of a fundamental aspect of the game. Your fates are 100% tied together as it gets exponentially harder to escape if you lose a teammate. I mean, come on guy this is core to the game design.
Nobody's talking about removing all of the defenses survivors have, we're literally just talking about keeping some pallets not safe. The game already affords survivors all the advantages in the game EXCEPT FOR IN A CHASE, where the killer originally, and ideally, would have the advantage. That's why the killer hunts the survivors in the first place. It's to isolate them and get them on their own. Pallets and windows are there to give survivors A chance in the chase, not EVERY chance.
If you want chases to all have fair and equal opportunities for each individual survivor, then you've got to be willing to give up the advantage survivors have in the rest of the game. That means, no swf/parties and a comparable Entity timer that makes non-completion of gens within a time limit a failure state for survivors and a win for the killer. It means you shouldn't be able to unhook, and shouldn't be able to heal the other survivors. If we're doing a straight 1v1v1v1 with equal and fair opportunities for everyone then you shouldn't be able to help anyone but yourself.
But we're not talking about equal and fair opportunities for everyone, we're talking about making the game easier for survivors and harder for killers. I am already a killer main because the game is already too easy on survivors. I want to have fun playing survivor. I bought this game with the expectation of being a survivor main. I want to feel tension and anxiety and fear - it's ostensibly a horror game. But in order to get any tension or anxiety I am forced to play killer. Because it's not scary as a survivor after like two games, which is about all you need to play to realize that you can just run around in a circle around a pile of garbage if the killer ever finds you. You'll either make it out just fine or spend enough time doing laps that the killer has a serious uphill battle and your team will probably win even if he gets you. Yeah, you can get better at running laps. Which means you can just get better at extending the unfair advantage. It's not fun for me to know that the game isn't a fair fight and that my opponent needs to be 2x as skilled as me to even have a chance.
This is not a killer community versus survivor community issue. I don't want more 4ks. The whole point is that I don't want the game too easy, because I want to enjoy playing survivor.
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Endgame chat is my favorite, nothing gets me over a bad game faster than being able to tell the only person who got sacrificed telling me that I suck, "well, I guess at least I killed you."
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@LALYTHIA said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331656#Comment_1331656
"Those chases seriously favor the killer only if you try to loop the unsafe pallets like they're safe. Don't... do that and you should be fine. They still work to delay the killer. They still stun the killer. They just can't be cheesed - sorry, looped - the same way."
Just don't loop an unsafe palette and you're fine? Hello? Are we playing the same game? They provide almost zero killer delay - since the killer can quickly make up any time they spent having to go around a small rock or bush or box at a much faster pace than the survivor...if they even approached the palette to begin with and weren't already taking that action because we all know how unsafe palettes work. You might get a stun off on a killer...a generous figure would be 50% of the time...because latency and killer hit priority ensure you take a hit even though your timing was accurate on your end and they were stunned. No palettes can be cheesed. Palettes can be looped and mind gamed. That's it.
Unsafe palettes were meant to be used to stun the killer, but as I previously mentioned that doesn't happen at least half the time because of how the game functions at a server level for the killer vs. the survivor. How is it fair that 1/2 or more of resources on a map meant to help survivors gain distance from the killer don't actually work appropriately because of other in game functionalities? It's really not.
You can claim you love the most killer sided map in the game and provide a vapid, vague description of how you think people can win on it...but it's not really adding anything constructive to this conversation. If you want to validate your stance that unsafe palettes are a perfectly fine resource as-is and there is nothing wrong with the Hawkins map...the least you could do is provide some actual valid strategy, game play footage, etc. Otherwise you really sound like a killer main disguised as a survivor giving people the old "git gud" argument. Quite boring.
It's fair that "50%" of the pallets aren't extra useful because survivors have more than just pallets as an advantage against the killer. As I said, the whole game is designed around giving survivors all the advantages except in a chase, where the killer is supposed to be... well, a bloodthirsty murderer. But the establishment of looping as a core mechanic removed most of the killer chase advantages whereas most of the other survivor advantages stayed intact. That led to the current state of the game, where it's far more stressful to be a killer than one of the survivors.
That's why I like maps where a bunch of the pallets aren't safe. It forces me to open the survivor game up and use killer location, map geography, line of sight, audio cues, and the like in ways I don't normally have to pay attention to on other maps.
I am 100% a killer main, and the reason is because most maps are boring to play as survivor because you are so incredibly safe. It doesn't mean that I'm guaranteed an escape or that I'm some sort of survivor god - I'm not. I don't have any interest in learning the deeper intricacies of the "mind game" (lol) of looping, which is only a mind game in the sense that your mind is what makes guesses. But even a potato survivor like me can loop well enough to make things stupid hard on the killer and win or lose I know it wasn't fair. And that's boring.
I'd love to be a survivor player or even a survivor main. But looping is godawful boring and dumb. So I'll keep playing killer until you get your way and survivors are virtually invincible as a team (if not individually) and then I'll quit - and your survivor queue times will keep getting longer.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331640#Comment_1331640
"I'm not talking about making chases seriously favor the killer"
But... that's what this thread is about. The super unsafe no mind game pallets that appear mostly on Hawkins, but also on Saloon, Badham, and seems more maps going forward. These pallets shouldn't exist any more than the super safe ones with no mind game.
Those chases seriously favor the killer only if you try to loop the unsafe pallets like they're safe. Don't... do that and you should be fine. They still work to delay the killer. They still stun the killer. They just can't be cheesed - sorry, looped - the same way.
Hawkins is definitely harder as a survivor. That, again, is why it's one of my favorite maps to play as a survivor. I lose more there than I do on other maps, but it's 100 times more fun. Still plenty possible to win, just have to play smarter and utilize more than just the environmental advantage survivors get to do it.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331575#Comment_1331575
"I get that you don't approach survivor as a team game, that's fine. Plenty of people do."
Including me. I play SWF almost 90% of the time, at least 2 man. I solo too but I'd rather play killer most of the time instead. Plus stats show that MAJORITY of players are solo. Only some are SWF.
My SWF group still loses, and when we lose it's either because we didn't do gens fast enough, the killer did a good job of shutting down the gens (eg. Forever Freddy with Pop), the killer got a massive snowball, or some combination of the three. The problem is not that chases last too long, it's that gens are too fast. Artificially shortening chases in a way that SERIOUSLY favors the killer will just kill the game. We don't need that. It's not fun to be in a chase with a killer when you know there is no way to escape the chase. And it's no fun to win a chase as killer that was basically given to you. Hence why I made this thread "unsafe pallets are lame". It just is. It's lame for survivor because nothing you do matters. It's lame for killer because it's not rewarding.
What we need is something to prevent survivors from just plowing through gens, or at the very least from doing that so early the killer never even gets a chance to get a proper foothold on the game. If gen speeds were address, or (as it seems the devs are doing) some kind of trial start up mechanic is added, then SWF becomes a moot point. Killers have PLENTY to beat SWF, it's only that they punch out 3 gens in the first chase that makes them a threat. If that didn't happen it wouldn't matter that the killer is outnumbered because they can still snowball at any point from good plays and/or capitalizing on the survivor's mistakes.
"I definitely don't want auto 4k's as a killer. But I also don't want to be bored as a survivor."
So you don't find hiding boring? Or being in a chase you can't actually win? Those both sound like really boring options.
Just a point - you can play with the survivors on your team as a team even if you're not SWF.
I'm not talking about making chases seriously favor the killer, I'm just not about giving survivors even more ways to avoid getting hit and even more ways to lessen their concern about the killer. You should be able to win a chase but it should require overcoming odds stacked against you. The entire rest of the game is stacked against the killer in the expectation of this dynamic. It hasn't really evolved that way, and looping became a thing - but they never removed all the various stacks against the killer outside of the chase. So now the dynamic is flip flopped. The killer is stressed out and anxious while the survivors dictate the pace of the game.
With the current gameplay design yeah, hiding would be boring. As I said that's why I rarely play survivor. They'd have to make some adjustments but the bones are there to flip the script and have the survivors scared of the monster (in a fair way) at least as much as the monster is scared of the survivors (which is the only source of real tension in this game at the moment). That would be a different post, but I'd much prefer more of a cat and mouse stealthy game than one where survivors don't really care if the monster sees them.
I just feel like escaping from Michael Myers or any of these monsters should feel like a hero moment and not an expected outcome. Michael Myers is supposed to catch you. If you escaped that means you did something special, not because you won a skill contest of equal opportunity. The movie is about Laurie somehow getting away even though she should have been killed - she beat the odds. It's Halloween, not SportsCenter. The rest of the gameplay aside from chases is about giving the survivors means to even the odds as a group; if you completely even the odds to an individual level there is no game, it just becomes "how hard can we beat up on this lone creature."
So no, the game is already soft enough on survivors as it is, and probably about as hard as it needs to be on killers. I don't think they need safer pallets and I'm fine with the unsafe ones.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331481#Comment_1331481
You are literally just asking for the game to hand wins to the killer because they happen to be outnumbered.
Survivors are NOT a team. Again, if you lose it doesn't mean I lose. I have a higher chance to lose, but my fate is not tied to yours. If we were talking Deathgarden, where the runners have to have X amount escape to win then yes, they are a team. But that's not the case at all.
"Game is absolutely impossible to make fair for the killer at that point"
Did you read my comment? The game has become more and more fair for killers over the years. When we get this early game warm up mechanic I'm fairly positive that will be the point when the game becomes almost entirely balanced.
SWF isn't the problem, the problem is that the gens can just be done too quickly robbing the killer of the time needed to kill survivors. Artificially shortening chases by handing wins to killer is not the fix we need. The fix will come with changing the gens. Remove gens from the equation and just pit 4 survivors against the killer and the killer actually has a lot of power. It's the reason overly altruistic SWF teams often lose, because the killer can slug them all and effectively win the game. There is very little they can do about it.
If gens couldn't be done so fast, SWF would inherently be a lot less powerful.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331483#Comment_1331483
But it's not explicitly 4v1. That's what I keep saying.
If you give the killer wins in a chase by design you are just making the game basically a PvE experience. What is the point of playing survivor if you are destined to get caught every chase?
I'm not saying it should be an auto-down for killers in a chase. I'm saying it should generally be harder - in a chase - for the survivor to avoid getting hit than it should be for the killer to get that hit.
I get that you don't approach survivor as a team game, that's fine. Plenty of people do. I'm saying that if we made your game easier, the killer would have equal opportunity to catch you and you could have fun, but virtually no avenue to victory versus the numerous players that DO approach survivor as a team effort.
I definitely don't want auto 4k's as a killer. But I also don't want to be bored as a survivor. I'd like to require the same kind of tense gameplanning and awareness and dread for the survivors that the killer role has. I don't want a one dimensional cardio contest around a pile of trash being the "skill test." The skill contest shouldn't be in making the killer bored or frustrated enough to abandon the looney toons chase, it should be in actually.. uh.. getting away from the killer. Or managing to stay alive long enough for your teammates to complete objectives when the odds are stacked against you. Right now - and especially if every pallet is semi-safe - survivors accomplish both of those by default. No real skill required. Just don't make any braindead errors and at the very least you've wasted a significant amount of killer time. If you're lucky and guess right on the "skill test" you probably also get away.
I said earlier, or somewhere else, that scratchmarks are a big problem with this - they need to go or be drastically reduced in utility. I'm not all about buffing killers; that's not what I want to see. I just think survivors are waaaay too safe in what is supposed to be an asymmetric horror game. The general consensus shouldn't be "I play survivor to relax and killer when I want to push myself."
Queue times are already pretty high for survivors. Encouraging a gameplay loop designed around making the killer have an unpleasant experience because everything is stacked against them - they have no team, they have a time limit, they can't use the environment as well, etc. etc. is just a recipe for longer queue times and greater disparities in killer skill level. Creating an environment where they also not only have to outplay a team of four people in the larger context of the game, but also require that they have no advantage in individual encounters... I mean, do survivors need more help, at this point?
I'd like to see something done with gens as well, but remember that a decent group of swf have 16 perk slots between them to share. The game (and the perks) are not designed around comms, but they're a reality. Even if they don't concentrate on genrush it still requires much more from the killer to make any progress as it does for the survivors. Making it even easier than it already is for survivors in a chase... I don't see the point.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331383#Comment_1331383
"If the killer wins the mind game and it's last hook the game isn't over for the survivor team, it's over for that survivor."
Except survivors are not actually a team. They have the same collective goal, but the outcome for one survivor does not equal the outcome for another survivor. It's in their better interest to keep other survivors alive, because the longer any individual survivor is alive the greater the chances that all survivors have to escape, but they are not explicitly a team. Even in an SWF, if you die and I escape those are two vastly different results. It's unreasonable to treat the game a a straight 1v4 because the outcomes can be different, and because majority of players play solo. It's not a straigh 1v1 either, it's a mix of both actually. You seem to be under the impression I'm explicitly asking for the game to focus on 1v1, I'm not. I'm only presenting an argument for this new very bad pallet/loop design philosophy. I never mentioned anything about other aspects of the game, but just to humor you, I do believe that survivor objectives need to be looked at. Gens go way to fast and it's unfair that killers have so little time to get any kind of pressure going. Thus they resort to camping/tunneling/slugging because it's all they can do really. That part needs improvement ON TOP OF improvements to the loop designs.
"The balance in the chase shouldn't be weighted towards the two players but the consequences to the entire game."
See but the "entire game" isn't the same for either side. For killer, the whole duration of the trial is the "entire game". For survivor, the time they are alive is "the entire game". So when one sided is already weighted to have a potentially shorter game than the other that means chases need to be weighted to the killer and the survivor they are chasing. If you give killer these built in "wins" in a chase then you're just making the survivor's game shorter with no way to change that, regardless of how well they play. They just have this timer above their head that says "you die in 2 minutes" or whatever. That's not exactly fair to them.
For killer a long chase is their decision. If you choose to chase one person for 5 gens, that's on you. It would be wiser to go for someone else and have a shorter chase. You also get heavily rewarded for ending chases faster because it means survivors die faster. For each survivor that dies, the game shifts HEAVILY in the killer's favor.
"But we are approaching, if not already, at a point to where killers can't down people fast enough to win the war of attrition if the survivor team is coordinated at all, whether through swf or not."
No we aren't. With no god loops, less safe pallets, and fewer pallets overall it's becoming increasingly easier and easier for killers. Every action they can do has been made faster over the years, while everything survivors can do is being made slower. Gens could be done EVEN FASTER in the past, yet killers had fewer tools to win in the time they had. Now they have more time than ever, and more advantages than ever, and that's still not good enough? Bro do you just want survivors to spawn on hooks or something?
The game should require skill from both sides. The game in it's current state is WAY WAY more balanced than it ever has been. Again, gen times need to still be looked at, but the devs have said they are working on some kind of early game warm up period like EGC is for end game.
"For a killer, chases are a chore."
The fact you look at chases as a chore suggests that you don't want to put in the effort to outplay your opponent. You just want the chases handed to you. Again, do you just want survivors spawned on hooks? Because that's what this sounds like.
Chases ARE the core dynamic in the game. They are where the true skill lies for either party. They are where the game is the most fun. It is the reason people play the game past the initial spooky factor for first timers.
"If long chases with fair and equal opportunity for both sides is important"
You are completely misunderstanding my points here. I never said "long chases are important" I'm saying "balanced/fair chases are important". Those are two wildly different things.
If a chase is long it benefits survivors. If it is short, it benefits killer. There is no getting around this. If the chase is artificially long/short (by means of super safe/unsafe pallets without mindgames) then we might as well just replace the other side with bots. That's basically what you are asking for here. I'm asking for balance opportunities for both sides. I win plenty of games as killer and survivor. I lose games too. That's fine. But when the game is built for me to lose or win, where the ######### is the fun in that?
I can't argue with you if you're saying the game isn't 4v1 its 1v1+1+1+1. Game is absolutely impossible to make fair for the killer at that point, because if it's balanced to where a single survivor has an equal and fair opportunity in every encounter then all it takes is the survivors working together to always win - or at least demand FAR more from the killer than the game demands from the survivor.
You can make the game fair and equal for each individual versus the killer, but because the survivors are, in actuality, on a team, then you're looking for a game where 4 people who can beat the killer on their own get to team up against him.
Which is almost what we already have. Notice the consternation about SWF and how an average group of well-coordinated SWF can easily take down a reasonably skilled killer. It's already much easier to play survivor than killer, I don't understand trying to make it even easier.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331243#Comment_1331243
"while wanting to give survivors every advantage with very little requirement"
No I want both sides to have to exert skill in order to win against their opponent. Super safe pallets with no mind games, and super UNSAFE pallets with no mind games do nothing to that end.
"Being able to depend on your teammates is the advantage, it's not a liability."
It's both. You outnumber the killer and therefore can do multiple things at once while they are limited to one thing at a time, but you have nothing to actually stop the killer from doing what they are going to do except evading them. If Bubba puts you on a hook and face camps with his chainsaw rev'd, there isn't anything you can do. The BEST that can be done is someone saves you with BT and trades a hook. Likewise, if the killer slugs multiple survivors, there are less people that you can depend on and a greater chance that killer kills everyone. It's part of the reason why Unbreakable exists and why slugging in general has been nerfed to be less effectively, because previously it was simply too strong of a tactic to secure a 4k.
"Looping is braindead easy."
Yes because you can see each other and/or because the pallet is super safe. Looping a long wall is easy because you can see the killer coming around each corner with plenty of time to make a move. Looping a 4 wall is NOT as easy because you lack the information required to react the same way and thus you have to commit to an option. If you guess wrong, you get hit.
Any loop that is both long enough to loop but short enough that the killer can land a hit if you weren't committed to a direction AND one where you cannot see each other the entire time are no easy loops to do. It takes skill, for both sides, to win those loops.
"The skill for survivors ought to be in not getting chased at all."
Bro there is little to no skill in hiding. There really isn't. In some instances there is, or knowing how to maneuver around while ALSO avoiding a chase is, but it is very easy to straight up hide from the killer. We shouldn't be encouraging that as the main method of survivor defense because it's easier than looping AND it's boring, particularly for the killer. The chase is where the real skill in the game lies.
"The skill for survivors ought to be in extending a chase past 30 seconds when they should be at a disadvantage at that point. Otherwise you are expecting everything from the killer, who is alone, and next to nothing from the team of survivors, who have teammates who can help."
Yes, skill in being able to consistently mind game/read your opponent. There is no mind game at any Z pallet loops on Blood Lodge. NONE. You can see each other. The killer's only chance is to bloodlust, and really that's not even going to cut it at the end of the day. They are forced to break the pallet and let you get to another loop.
I expect survivors to be able to mind game/read the killer and commit to an option. I also expect loops to not basically give the killer a hit regardless of what the survivor does. The latter is a problem with Hawkins, also Saloon and some of Badham. It's becoming the new trend for the devs to make loops like these where, whether you drop the pallet or not, whether you loop or not, you get hit. There is not avoiding a hit at these pallets, merely delaying it in some cases. That's stupid. Like old Legion level of stupid. How is it fair to basically guarantee the killer a hit anymore than it is to guarantee the survivor DOES NOT get hit? Neither of those should be a thing.
You seem to be under the impression I want every loop to be safe. I said several times SEMI-SAFE. As in if played perfectly it's safe, but in order to do that you have win 100% of the mind games and/or bait the killer 100% efficiently. Both of which are effectively impossible, and therefore it comes down to survivor skill V killer skill. With the exception of maybe 1 pallet on the map (eg. shack) no pallet should guarantee either side anything. It should be EARNED THROUGH SKILLFUL PLAY AND TACTICS, as I said before.
"So why is it important for survivors to have an equal and fair chance?"
Because otherwise they might as well be bots. This is a pvp game, and those should never favor one side over the other. Those that do are party games, gimmicks. Mario Party comes to mind.
"Here's the thing. The consequence for a survivor if they lose the mind game is what - they get hit. Maybe this downs them, maybe they get hooked. Worst case, it's giving up 1/12 of the killer's win condition."
The consequence is that they could die. What if it's a basement hook against Bubba or Huntress? What if the killer has a mori or Devour. What if it is last hook? What if they just slug you and then catch someone else.
Survivors have to collectively spend 400 seconds repairing gens. It can be less with perks and such, but basically that's how much time they have to put into their objective. On the other hand, a killer could, in theory, down all 4 survivors in under a minute. Granted that's likely not going to happen against good survivors, but the point is that killers can snowball a win WAY harder than survivors. If they lose a mind game it's not the end of the game. If a survivor loses a mind game, that very much could be the end of THEIR game.
Again, you're approaching this as if it's a game of four individual 1v1's. If the killer wins the mind game and it's last hook the game isn't over for the survivor team, it's over for that survivor. That's part of (or should be) the downside to playing on the team in an asymmetric game.
The balance in the chase shouldn't be weighted towards the two players but the consequences to the entire game. If you make the chase mechanics not favor either side, then you are only giving advantages to the survivor. If every chase, played at equal skill between both killer and individual survivor, resulted in a 50/50 split, then the survivors gain FAR more benefit from that as a TEAM in the context of the entire GAME than the killer does.
I get that survivors don't want to get hooked and they don't want to die. But we are approaching, if not already, at a point to where killers can't down people fast enough to win the war of attrition if the survivor team is coordinated at all, whether through swf or not.
400 seconds is less than seven minutes. How long do you want each chase to be? I get that it's all fun and games for survivors - chases are fun! Come get me let's test our skills! For a survivor, you might have a couple chases a game and I get that they're exciting and fun and you want the chance to outwit the killer etc etc etc.
For a killer, chases are a chore. A killer goes on every chase. Winning a mindgame is a relief, not a victory, because they're still under a tremendous time pressure that the survivors just don't deal with at all. The war of attrition is played on the survivor's terms, not the killer's.
How about this, as compromise. You can have the 50/50s at every pile of trash to play duck duck goose around (sorry, "mind game") if they implement a general match timer for the Entity - like when the doors open, but from the beginning (obviously it would be longer - say roughly 30 minutes). If long chases with fair and equal opportunity for both sides is important, it shouldn't ONLY benefit survivors if the chase is long. There should be a downside of not working towards the escape for the survivor as much as there's a downside of not killing anybody for the killer.
Edit: In other words, if the killer has the advantage, that's fine because survivors control the time crunch. If nobody has the advantage, then everybody should feel the time crunch.
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@RayrafLPP said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331240#Comment_1331240
Well considering I asked for tips and help, would it be wrong to say that you werent able to see what this thread is about?
Off course there are people better then me in this game. I lost to good survivors who won mindgames before. But these guys just ran tiles correctly and were on comms because no survivor would be able to sneak in for a bodyblock at the perfect time twice.
I never said its a problem with the game even if I think there its unbalanced. But this doesnt matter because I asked for help and tips in this thread.
The problem is that the game is severely unbalanced when you're dealing with swf on comms. There is no real advice except to just be way better than all four of the other players. The margin of error for you is negligible; one mistake or one missed opportunity could be all it takes for them to build an insurmountable lead in the attrition game.
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@BlueFang said:
I have to agree, I fail to see the point of so many unsafe pallets. They may as well not even exist if all it does is just delay the inevitable by a few seconds. Killer sided pallets should exist to elevate the danger for survivors to make escapes require reading and mindgaming skills as well. But stuff like Hawkins and the rest take zero skill to manage
If these become more and more the norm they are seriously going to damage the integrity of the gameplay loop
Please, please damage the integrity of this gameplay loop. Skill as a survivor shouldn't be measured by how efficiently they run in a circle occasionally dropping garbage on a monster but in being able to read the map (in real time, not just knowing which piles of trash are the best to run around) and in working with their teammates. If the game is balanced around four individual 1v1's then what's the point of the asymmetry in the first place? Just make it one killer versus one survivor.
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Here's the thing. The consequence for a survivor if they lose the mind game is what - they get hit. Maybe this downs them, maybe they get hooked. Worst case, it's giving up 1/12 of the killer's win condition. If the survivor wins the mind game, no progress is made on the killer's win condition.
What's the consequence for a killer if they lose the mind game? Against a competent survivor team, probably at least one gen. Best case the killer gives up close to 1/5 of the survivor's win condition. Not to mention, even if the killer wins the mind game he's given up significant progress on the survivor's win condition.
Yes, other factors enter into that math as generators start to dwindle, but the consequence disparity remains. It's far worse on the killer to lose the mind game than it is on the survivor, and it's far better for the survivor when the survivor wins.
So why is it important for survivors to have an equal and fair chance?
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4k in a game with a swf. Four flashlights, one dude has TTV in the name and flashy cosmetics so yep - target acquired. One gen pops before I find him, then I tunnel for a bit to see what happens. He's objectively better than me at looping, naturally doing all the required teabagging and flashlight clicking, and while I could have downed him at a couple points I let it go for well over a minute as I'm not hearing gens pop and thinking my suspicions were correct. Then it happens. All three other survivors come out with their flashlights to try and run interference and save streamerdude from getting hooked. Long story short it was essentially a 20 minute tunnel where I would occasionally slug the streamer and hook a flashlight bodyguard, return to slug and let him get healed to resume the chase.
4k, 4 gens up. Last kill was the streamer, who died on first hook. Oh the salt about how I was trash and just tunneled.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331138#Comment_1331138
The thing is survivors depend on other survivors for a lot of things.
- If you are getting chased, you are depending on other survivors to do gens.
- If you are injured and do not have Self Care or a medkit, you are dependent on other survivors to get healed.
- If you are in dying state and do not have Unbreakable/No Mither you are dependent on other survivors to get revived.
- If you are on a hook and do not kobe or have Deliverance, you are dependent on other survivors to get rescued.'
Killer does not depend on anyone but themselves and exerts complete control over you once you are caught. They also have control over when people DO NOT die, so in the case of hatch all the killer needs to do is slug the third guy to prevent the fourth guy from getting hatch until they catch them.
Pallets and windows are survivors defenses against the killer. If you take them out of the game then every chase would end in roughly 30 seconds because all the killer would have to do is follow you. They have plenty of power on their side to win games, it's just that you will often have to play scummy against good survivors/SWF to gain that power. But they shouldn't inherently have power over survivors. That power needs to be EARNED through skillful play and proper tactics.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331151#Comment_1331151
Yes equally safe. Otherwise survivors just bolt to the absolute safest places on the map which are entirely too powerful and are forced to avoid the absolute unsafest areas of the map like the massive dead zones on most Autohaven maps. You get very one dimensional gameplay that way.
On some maps there is no place to run. You get found in a dead zone you are just gonna get hit, no matter what you do. Just like if you get found at shack chances are the killer will never get a hit on you until the pallet is gone. That's straight up predictable and lame. If every area was equally safe, then both sides have a fair chance to outplay the other. Obviously perfect balance is impossible, some areas will just always be safer/unsafer than others, but the gap between these areas currently is just massive. And now that they severely nerfed the god loops (which was necessary) they need to buff the dead zones or unsafe pallets to compensate.
The point is that every tile should be about the same fairness to survivor OR killer, and not heavily favor one or the other. Every loop should have a mind game attached to it, and every loop should be semi-safe, as in you have to commit to an option (as either side) and if you win the mind game you get the hit/don't get hit, and vice versa if you lose.
Yes, the survivors depend on their teammates for a lot of things. Play a game of 4v1 basketball, even a game where someone who is very good versus a bunch of people who are only kind of good, and tell me how that goes. Being able to depend on your teammates is the advantage, it's not a liability. It's also the primary source of challenge on any team. Balancing that out so that you have a team AND if that breaks down you're fine by yourself is just ridiculously stacking the deck.
The problem is that you are demanding that killers "EARN that power through skillful play and proper tactics" while wanting to give survivors every advantage with very little requirement. Looping is braindead easy. Yes, you can be good at it and be virtually uncatchable, but it's relatively trivial to be decent enough at it to waste at least a minute of time. Meanwhile the other "skill" requirement is not blowing a gen skill check.
The skill for survivors ought to be in not getting chased at all. The skill for survivors ought to be in extending a chase past 30 seconds when they should be at a disadvantage at that point. Otherwise you are expecting everything from the killer, who is alone, and next to nothing from the team of survivors, who have teammates who can help.
The challenge for survivors should be in finding a way to work together (the game balance is already massively in their favor if they do). Trying to balance the game so that survivors don't have to depend on each other gives them not only an equal and fair chance in a 1v1 versus the killer but ALSO a near unbeatable advantage if they do work together at all.
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If survivors really want to win there is almost nothing in this game that prevents it. A coordinated 4-man SWF (and they don't have to be particularly good, just well coordinated) is an absolute nightmare for any killer. As they have 16 perks to share between them plus voice comms they will generally all always know exactly where you are, do gens much faster than normal in a pattern that prevents a good 3-gen, and usually all have one or two spots left over for some kind of second chance. If they all bring flashlights, puke.
If you run into a SWF of good survivors there's not really much point to trying. I'm sure you'll get your share of "get better" comments but the truth is that the game is heavily weighted in the survivor's favor, it's just up to the survivors to take advantage of it or not. This works when it's four strangers with limited communication ability. Like in a horror movie - things would go so much better if the camp counselors would just band together, but no, they get picked off one by one, weakest link first. But when it's four people on comms it's like pitting Jason against Delta Force.
My bandaid fix for this would be to eliminate one perk slot for every additional party member. 2 man SWF each get 3 perks each, 3 man get 2, 4 man get 1.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331003#Comment_1331003
But all the killer has to do is go around and in most cases you don't get enough distance to get to another loop.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331005#Comment_1331005
LOL what? Killer sided? Sorry but no. Both sides should have equal and fair opportunities.
All we need are semi-safe pallets with mind games. We don't need any of this fancy nonsense that hasn't been tested. Every loop should have LOS blockers with some holes so that you can trick each other, a short side that is unsafe, and a long side that is semi-safe as it assumes you win the mind game but have to COMMIT to an option to do it.
I think it's often ignored that having three other teammates is a massive thumb on the fairness scale. Equal and fair opportunities for both sides needs to keep that in account otherwise you just end up with one person playing four different 1v1's, balanced to be equal and fair, at the same time. Meanwhile the three teammates are free to continue to try and win the game with no opportunity, let alone equal and fair, for the killer.
Don't forget that the chase is part of the bigger picture of game design and does not happen in a vacuum. From the survivor POV, the chase is something that happens that prevents them from completing gens which they do with a PvE quicktime event versus a computer. The chase is the killer's gen completion, which they have to do versus a human being. Killers do not have equal and fair opportunities to interfere with the PvE gen completion mechanic outside of the 1v1 environment of a chase, and the ones that touch it at all seem to be the ones most complained about, whether that's Ruin, Forever Freddy, madness, or Legion mending.
The more effort you spend to make chases equal and fair the more advantage you give to the survivor side, if you do not give killers anything that impairs generator progress while they're chasing.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331003#Comment_1331003
But all the killer has to do is go around and in most cases you don't get enough distance to get to another loop.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1331005#Comment_1331005
LOL what? Killer sided? Sorry but no. Both sides should have equal and fair opportunities.
All we need are semi-safe pallets with mind games. We don't need any of this fancy nonsense that hasn't been tested. Every loop should have LOS blockers with some holes so that you can trick each other, a short side that is unsafe, and a long side that is semi-safe as it assumes you win the mind game but have to COMMIT to an option to do it.
I think it's often ignored that having three other teammates is a gigantic weight on the fairness scale. "Equal and fair opportunities for both sides" needs to keep that in account - otherwise you have one person playing four balanced 1v1s at the same time, which is patently unfair on its face.
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I am relatively new so I don't really get the unsafe versus safe pallet thing, but I suppose this explains why Hawkins is probably my favorite map as both killer and survivor. It's one of the only maps where I'm actually a bit tense at the threat of getting chased by the killer playing as survivor and one of the only maps where I feel like I am an actual horror villain as the killer and not just an inconvenience at an auto repair shop.
I'm not super high rank on either (7 killer and i think 9 survivor but it's been a while), and again, I'm comparatively new. I can say that I don't play survivor very much because most maps feel way too safe. I'm not looking for fair chases as a survivor, cause if I've got a fair chase I know I've got the overall advantage and that's boring. I've got three other teammates working on other things towards an escape - the killer only has himself and the chase.
But I guess being new I expected hide and seek instead of duck duck goose. I get that some people enjoy it, but I find looping to be just incredibly lame as a mechanic. I get that scratch marks exist so chases kind of have to eventually devolve into it, it's just become so established that it sort of feels like the horror game immediately turns into slapstick comedy the moment a killer runs into a survivor - when it's supposed to be at it's most tense and dramatic. Hawkins feels like one of the few maps where the game isn't necessarily about running in a circle around a dumpster waiting for an opportune moment to throw garbage at a monster with fair odds that that'll work. Game mostly feels like the "cardio" joke from Zombieland.
I'd leave the unsafe pallets but drastically shorten duration/reduce visibility of scratchmarks to make Hawkins feel better. Then I'd gut almost every other map, lol.
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I'm fine with DS if they made survivors a little bit slower to make looping a little bit harder. The whole tunneling thing seems like sour grapes to me when it's legit trivial for any survivor to extend a chase a lot longer than it should go. At this point I have the distinct impression that survivors at least don't mind being chased and in some cases search it out, as the time they can easily waste (and then complain about in postgame if a killer commits for however long the survivor thinks is too long) is often more valuable than anything else they could be doing.
If survivors were afraid of being chased then I'm fine with whatever anti-tunneling measures they want to have. With the game design encouraging the survivors to look for chases I'm not sure what they expect except tunneling.
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Yeah look, I get it - I'm not good enough to down them, not good enough to avoid the four potential flashlights, not good enough to have the perks to counter the two to three second chances they're all running, just plain not good enough. I completely acknowledge that. I am also well aware that a coordinated group of survivors has a gigantic advantage on most (if not all) killers. I play through those games when people are just playing like people and not immature cretins to try and get better. It's not ideal, of course, to try and learn while being massively outmatched, but I do what I can in those games. I don't mind having to be twice as skilled as a decent swf to be competitive, that challenge is fun. What's not fun is the level of toxicity when it's a bad swf. I'm not new to online games and I'm not new to the internet, but even League of Legends does a better job of keeping people non-toxic and helping players avoid it.
This is the only game I've played in recent memory that forces me to get trolled for an amount of time determined entirely by the troll. Even getting spawn camped in a shooter just runs the score up faster and ends the game quicker.
I guess it's just AFK time then until I get tired of having to do that and move on to a better game.
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@A_Skinny_Legend said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1329504#Comment_1329504
Well then suck it up. The moment the killer leaves the whole game ends. You already know what you'll face when choosing to play killer.
I am talking about games that are already over, where I have no chance and the survivors are just extending the game to be toxic. I can't do anything but DC, which carries a penalty - I can't do gens, I can't open the doors, I can't do anything except try to run and hide which is definitely the opposite of why I queued up as killer.
Like I have said, repeatedly, 50% of my games are great - good fun, win or lose (by whatever margin). The other half are miserable. If I knew it would be bad all or most of the time I wouldn't play and your queue times would be that much longer. I'm just saying it'd be nice to be able to leave games I've already lost and not add the AFK time to my queue time.
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@A_Skinny_Legend said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1329489#Comment_1329489
What do you mean you can't respond for 20 minutes? You're in the game just get them. Are you talking about them messaging you?
I would try and "just get them" except a coordinated swf that knows what they're doing with the right perks can absolutely shut down anything I try to do. Yeah, I get it, I'm not good - fine. Matchmaking is busted. Fine. Let me out, then.
Killers have no emotes and they are by themselves. Most of them can't even crouch. I can do literally nothing but watch or try to hide - exactly how I remember it going in Texas Chainsaw Massacre or Friday the 13th. Yeah, I could bang my head against the brick wall and keep trying to play but that's exactly what they're after. Again, I don't mind losing and I don't mind losing badly. I don't need to win every game and I don't even need to come close. But when somebody's got my number and they're just intent on rubbing it in my face I don't understand why I just have to put up with it or else.
To clarify, the BM doesn't bother me except for the fact that I have to sit through it. I don't like hanging out in high school cafeterias or nursery rooms either, and I don't get mad at immature teens or crying babies. I just leave.
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@KingFrost said:
The problem with this idea is that killers could just quit as soon as the game begins. Map they don't like? Quit. They just want to troll survivors and make them go back to 10 minute matchmaking? Quit. Too abuseable.
So it's ok for them to troll me with a 20 minute toxicity fest but "abuseable" that I could troll some people to a potential 10 minute queue where I can't interact with them at all?
I mean, I get the concern. But have you considered that maybe it's a 10 minute queue because there aren't enough killers? Aaand maybe there's a reason for that?
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@A_Skinny_Legend said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/158586/can-we-just-get-a-killer-surrender-option
If you're willing to give up like that then maybe playing killer isn't for you.
LOL if playing killer means I have to just be ok with obnoxious behavior that I can't respond to for 20 minutes then yeah maybe not. Did not realize it was the "please sir may I have another" role.
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@Dead_by_Gadfly said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1329410#Comment_1329410
You can win, its just stupid hard and you have to break the survivors rules and hope they make mistakes. But yeah it does require a lot of time to get that right.
Next time drag one in the basement and camp the upper area. If theyre a 4 man theyll come for him. Be ready when they do
Yeah I suppose. I'd rather just be able to bow out than play toxic back.
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It's just irritating - half the games are fun; I'll lose my share but get plenty of 3-4ks as well. The other half are just abysmally toxic - not so much that they're better (like, looping is looping), they're just running 2-3 second chance perks and split rushing gens while obviously calling out positions. Which is fine, whatever, I can get stomped and be fine with it if they're cool about it - I include those swf games in the "fun" category too, cause even though it's OP as hell I don't mind trying.
I just don't like having to sit and wait through games where the objective of the survivors isn't to complete gens and escape it's to make my life as miserable as possible for as long as possible. At least when I play survivor and get face camped there's a timer.
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@tixerp said:
That sounds beta as #########.
Thanks for your input. Didn't realize alpha = masochism but whatever.
I don't mind losing, the game wouldn't be fun if you couldn't lose. I just don't enjoy the games where I can't win and the survivors know it so they pull out every stop to make it as irritating as possible.
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@DelsKibara said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1329392#Comment_1329392
There's the Matchmaking Penalty. You'll have to wait 5 minutes before going back into the game.
Then I'll just stick with the original surrender request. I don't want to get penalized beyond de-pipping just cause I don't enjoy getting pissed on in addition to getting dunked on.
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No penalty associated other than de-ranking back to where its fun?
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That's fine, but if the rescue goes poorly just don't get all toxic about camping in postgame.
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It's less survivors vs killers and more just establishing a grind system suited to a small game before the game grew big enough to make it ridiculous. The only conspiracy theory that has any potential merit is the pay to win aspect of buying a killer for a perk instead of waiting for the shrine.
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@BBQnDemogorgon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1328576#Comment_1328576
Leveling and resetting characters to this extent is actually a huge draw for me...
It's like an MMO grind you get hooked in the constant cycle of earning perks for new characters.
Cutting it too much would make me want to quit because I'd hit the end and feel like I need to move on. I have new characters maxed usually the week after they release AS IS...
Imo the time it takes to max a rift within 70 days should be the baseline for how much the devs expect people to play/progress.
Sure but there are ways to make a grind that don't hinder player progression and development the way that this one does.
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Makes sense. I'll try that.
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I think if gens took a significant loss on progress everytime someone got injured (not downed) you'd kill a bunch of birds with one stone. It would reduce the ambivalence about getting chased for survivors - at this point you normally have one or two survivors actively hunting the killer to start a loop as the time-waste is more valuable than anything else the survivors can do. It would reduce (but not eradicate) the value of the wealth of second chance survivor perks. It would make healing a strategic choice instead of an obvious one. It would encourage more teamplay and proximity contact with the survivors instead of the divide and conquer approach we have now, as you'd want to prioritize one gen at a time. It would reduce the need for boring but necessary locator perks and free builds to go in more interesting directions.
It'd make the game more dangerous for survivors and push them away from the kind of gameplay mechanics that make DbD's "horror" designation a joke, without making the game an auto-win for killers.
You'd have to take a look at a lot of the killer mechanics designed to slow down gen progress and finding survivors, though, but I feel like those are all band-aid fixes for the same general problem anyway that tend to make the game more annoying than more fun.
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@Speshul_Kitten said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1328527#Comment_1328527
I know that your opinion is 100% against the current grind and believe me I understand. However the way that most people, including yourself, who have complained about the grind is looking at it as a means to no end.
This is exactly what I’m talking about: “tell that to the brand-new player who immediately starts getting matched with and against red ranks”-Perks will not teach skill. In fact, this in my opinion is a poor example of why the grind should be reduced.
You expect too much for someone who just picks up the game. If everyone had access to meta perks or the perks they want, they would not learn the game as it’s meant to be learned which the less competitive perks allow them to do in the first place.
That's the thing, though, the grind doesn't teach a new player how to play the game at all, it just puts a wall up in front of being able to learn the game well.
I started a few weeks ago. Loved the killer role. Played Pig for a while and got the hang of the mechanics. Started running into issues with some things and did my research (through both the internet and the game itself) - oh, I could use such and such perk. In a normal game (say CoD for example, a competitive game with similar optimization locked behind a grind) I would continue to play and level up Pig and learn her finer details while making progress towards that perk. In DbD I have to start from absolute scratch with a new killer and a new set of perks, with a new set of finer intricacies and details, unless I want to donate all the BP from my Pig games to another killer (and thereby sacrifice items/add-ons which are generally critical to killer performance). Not to mention that if I do move to a new killer - oh, the rank is my overall killer rank not individual so no breaks there. I won't be matched with other potatoes figuring out a new survivor with no perks, I'll be matched with my level 8 Pig opponents.
It doesn't teach me the game, it actively hinders my progress in learning the game. So, why? Wouldn't it be better to unlock all killer perks from the get-go and then prioritize your bloodweb grinding for the 3rd levels as you learn which perks you like best? Wouldn't that also help balance the game in that developers could see that oh yeah, everybody runs BBQ instead of everybody who can runs BBQ?
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@Aven_Fallen said:
First of all, stop thinking about something like "Gen Rush". "Gen Rush" is you not applying enough pressure on the Survivors so that they are free to work on Gens - which is their Objective. Once you force them into altruistic actions, they will have to spend less time on Gens.
This is nothing bad, because you are new to the game. With how Matchmaking is, you play against Survivors who are more experienced than you - in the end, you have to learn.
Also, you are not facing that many coordinated SWFs. SWFs, especially 4 man SWFs, are not the majority of players, and even 4 man SWFs are usually bad.
Like I said, the key is to force Survivors into altruistic actions. Meaning, hitting them, downing them, hooking them. Another Survivor has to go for the Safe and ideally you are chasing the next Survivor. This means, instead of 4 people on a Gen, there is only 1 on a Gen (at max). So the game is much slower.
@Sonzaishinai has linked a good guide. In general, ScottJund is someone to watch if you want to learn. I can also recommend OhTofu.
If you like the Pig, I 100% recommend this guide:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UOlX6azR3A
Scorpionz is a really good Killer Main and is a Pig Main. You can learn a lot from him. Highly recommended if you like playing Pig (she is my favorite Killer as well, and I would not say that she is bad to play at Rank 1).
I appreciate the video and the advice, honestly, but I do want to clarify that just because I'm new does not make me bad. I do know the difference between a coordinated SWF scouting my movements and tapping gens so that they can rush them down versus a normal game where survivors are focused on objectives. As I said earlier, the rank 8 isn't entirely dumb luck or a matchmaking error. I'm still getting 2-4k's on groups of reds. None of that necessarily means anything, but I've got a specific issue with a particular circumstance that I am able to recognize. I am noticing more groups of better players, which makes obvious sense, but running into an issue where I feel 100% helpless when they happen to be swf and this is their coordinated strategy. Not - "oof I'm going to lose this one" (which happens plenty, I'm not good good) but "it's entirely pointless for me to be here" level. I'm new to DbD but not new to gaming, I have a pretty good understanding of what's going on and what I should be trying to do, except in this specific circumstance.
That's not salt or defensiveness, I'm just trying to clarify the issue - I understand that the advice is well-intentioned and it is very much appreciated.
I only kick the gens to activate the only reliable locator perk I have ATM. I can kick less, but then I have less info vs the rushing team. I know BBQ is the meta locator perk but I do not have that killer and need to wait for it to drip out of the Shrine.
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It was an honest ask, no reason to lie on the rank - not sure if I'd classify it as high rank, but it's high enough that I'm out of 1/2 reds + green/browns territory and just running into a big leap in terms of caliber of survivor.
Recommendations for killer if I like Pig who might also have perks that would be useful for her/elsewhere?
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I appreciate the advice aside from "get better" (that's why I'm posting lol). I'm not godawful at ending chases - while I probably shouldn't be rank 8 I didn't get there entirely by happenstance - but yes there is room for improvement obviously there. I don't have any chase perks either, really, so a similar situation as the gen repair perk thought. I'm really working with not much more than Pig stuff.
I'm on PC. Thank you for the streamer/youtube link, I'll check that out.
And yes, usually my thinking was to do a scouting round to identify the weakest link (injure, take the first loop, see if they're really good - if so move on) and get as quick a down and cage (hopefully before 1st or 2nd gen) so I could start pushing my terms instead of being wholly reactive. I don't worry too much about defending early gens and primarily try to protect a close cluster. It's just when things are obviously coordinated that things start to really break down as everybody's got multiple second chance perks etc, so even poor loopers can delay me long enough that the genrush feels unbeatable (I see a ton of DH/DS/SW combos in these groups). When they all bring flashlights it's even worse. I kick the gens to activate Surveillance, btw, moreso than to slow down the repair. I don't generally crouch unless I know someone's on a gen and I have an angle or someone is about to take a long loop stretch with no window/pallet.
I'd like to keep playing Pig to get better but it sort of sounds like I need the perks and just transfer the chase mechanics and improvement to whoever that is, and revisit later. Kind of a bummer but I guess that's how it goes. Again, I appreciate all the responses guys.
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@Speshul_Kitten said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1328313#Comment_1328313
I can see you haven’t been around long enough that the devs don’t balance over “highly competitive.” In fact, most of the game’s balance is around Green and Yellow ranks. To help you better understand what the intentions of this game are (which is not to be highly competitive) I will put this in the words of the devs: “the goal is 2 kills to 2 escapes”
Whether you agree with this notion or not is beyond the facts.
With that being said, I respect your opinion. However, I stand by the grind and don’t believe it’s any worse than many games out there, nor do I believe that all perks are necessary to grind in the first place. The grind is only as big as the player makes it.
If it's not terribly competitive (and I have no issue with 2 kills to 2 escapes) then what's the point of the grind? For example - I'm a rank 8 killer who loves playing Pig. I can do literally nothing against a decent genrush swf without any other way to slow things down. I have to play Hag and/or Trapper to 40 just so I can get bullied while I hope their teachables show up in my bloodweb? Why?
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I probably shouldn't be rank 8 but I can't help that. So just don't play Pig anymore? That kinda blows.
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@Chewy102 said:
The way I see the grind is that isn't isn't all that bad.
Grinding for perks can be hell if you want and ONLY want a single build. But if you open yourself to use what you got and attempt to break out of meta. Then the perk grind isn't all bad and can be a good thing as it gives you options you'd otherwise never think you had. Plus having a perk grind builds your core gameplay skills. And building those is never a bad thing.
Grinding for cosmetics. Shards at first are not easy to earn. But as you level devotion they flood in. NO where near fast enough to kit out multiple people, but you should be able to get what you want in a timely manner. If I can get the 2K shards to dump for blood points through the shrine, then it shouldn't be hard to save up for some nice fashion over 1-2 weeks of off/on gameplay. Again, you aren't gonna get full outfits. But should be able to get a part here or there to make a look of your own. And I find mix/matching parts to be MUCH better overall as it can really be of look of your own.
Grinding for Killers/Survivors. I never bothered with this and chose to support the devs by paying for what people I wanted to play as. So far I have bought all DLCs with cash outside of Headcase, Charity Case, and Ash himself. It's my opinion the devs earned the money and so I gave what I could afford over the years. Needless to say I don't have any say in the grind for people when I never ground for them.
Overall. DbD's grind is only as bad as you make it out to be. If you only want a certain thing, then the grind is going to be pure hell. But if you are more open to options, then there almost isn't a grind at all as you will be earning new stuff constantly while you play. And if only takes raw gameplay as well unlike many other games that need you to farm certain resources to certain unlocks. That quickly makes gameplay a chore as you can't really do anything but farm those exact things to get what you want.
DbD though, just play the game. Play it any way you want, using anything you can, or as any role you choose. Sooner or later you'll get where you're going. Or if you want, pop a bit of cash for what you want now.
DbD is only $20 base before going on sale. That $20 gets you a good bit to start with and has vastly more potential gameplay compared to some other games who charge the full $60. If you spent an extra $20-$40 to match those other games, you'd instantly unlock just about everything you could ever want outside of perks.
It's actually the opposite, again from a new player's perspective. I get ONE build and that's it, for a really long time. Most are plenty viable, but not nearly as effective as the optimized builds I have to play against. Occasionally a perk will pop up that I'll see and say "oh hey this might be fun combined with that Trapper perk but oh I never play Trapper so I guess I won't be trying that." Out-of-meta curiosity, for me, demands a ton of investment, just to see in one game that it doesn't work as well as I thought it might.
So instead I'm stuck either playing killers I don't like to chase the meta or I am just hobbling along with suboptimal builds that I know could be better or more interesting.
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@Speshul_Kitten said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1328287#Comment_1328287
That’s fine if you disagree, it’s a two way street. As a new player, yeah it’s a tough grind, but I don’t think players realize they don’t need every perk in the game, you can have good perks without making out a bloodweb.
If you want to be highly competitive in this game, then yes, expect to work for the builds and perks you want on multiple characters.
I think part of the problem is this notion that this is a "highly competitive" game. It's 4v1 balanced to where the team of four is supposed to win if they don't royally screw up multiple times. The killer is there to make it fun and punish the mistakes. If the killer was meant to have an equal chance at winning the game they wouldn't have things like looping or being able to run so many second chance survivor perks. Plus you can party up with whatever rank you want - I mean, there's no point in pretending like this is some sort of e-sport. It's just a fun game.
So what's the point of the grind? Usually a game's got DLC and microtransactions, OR a heavy grind, and you choose which path you want to follow. This game has both, for no discernable reason, with the choice of "pay to win PLUS a grind" or "grind PLUS a grind."
I don't see any harm in opening up all the teachables at rank 1 to everybody from the start - for the DLC you own. Keep the slow shrine drip for the rest, and grind the bloodweb for higher perk ranks. Not sure what the point of the current system is.