Incarnate
Incarnate
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There are more things that make it worse, which is when every victim/survivor relies on the action of another victim/survivor, especially when others are not doing the required action for whatever reason, even being unable. To best analyze this it's best to leave perks and equipment out of the equation. I will list a few of those actions below:
Getting off the hook
Not being able to save yourself and being reliant on someone else to come save you also ties into the death-efficiency problem, especially when there when the victim count is lower. Personally I think that the current RNG mechanic to attempt to get off the hook without help, is bad, and would be a lot better if it were based on skill rather than RNG.Recovering from dying state
This also contributes to the downward spiral of the death-efficiency and it's not very fun, not even for the killer, and this also promotes slugging, as was mention in the OP, namely that which is strategically the most efficient for the killer isn't going to be fun for the killer. I think this is something that should've been changed a long time ago. True you can run certain perks to offset this, but personally I think that the victims should be able to actually recover on their own WITHOUT the use of any perks, which I think would make the game more fun.Healing
By default you cannot heal yourself and requires the help of someone one else, but you can run self-care or use a medkit (with enough charges), but since we're looking at this without these, it makes the death efficiency a lot worse. So assuming both don't have anything that will allow themselves to heal, means that as soon as they're seperated they're effectively unable to even remotely recover from the situation. So for instance when there are two left and one of those two is suddenly in a chase, then they're seperated. Where if there suddenly is one left, that one will be unable to do anything to recover. -
@Tsulan said:
Incarnate said:@Tsulan said:
I found the reveal trailer more deceptive.
Him being able to run together with survivors and surprising them.
Plain false advertising.
That is what you call misleading advertising, and depending on what country the advertiser resides in, will determine it's legality, in the US misleading advertising is illegal, and I don't believe Canada is an exception here either.
Yeah, I suppose there will be some consequences.
Only if someone is going to report them, file charges or is going to be suing them, otherwise that is not very likely to be happening.
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@Tsulan said:
I found the reveal trailer more deceptive.
Him being able to run together with survivors and surprising them.Plain false advertising.
That is what you call misleading advertising, and depending on what country the advertiser resides in, will determine it's legality, in the US misleading advertising is illegal, and I don't believe Canada is an exception here either.
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@BigBadPiggy said:
This would just add more fuel to the SWF bonfire.SWFs would definitely be more equipped to handle it, however I think the blending part shouldn't be utilized for this killer, instead I think the killer should have and ability more like sprint burst (activated the same way) and have a special attack labelled backstab, which would work as I outlined above. Because the sprint burst wouldn't be nearly as powerful as feral frenzy is, as it would be a much shorter duration and have a much longer cooldown, so the killer would have to use more efficiently. The cooldown would be the equivalent of exhaustion, and the actual cooldown duration should be less than exhaustion, probably somewhere between 30-45 seconds.
They could also change it so that if a victim had been backstabbed, it was possible to fully recover while in dying state without the help of others, this way it would become more of a gamble to leave a victim downed.
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I gotta ask though, who' is the doc who's responsible for this survivor madness..
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@Nickenzie said:
Incarnate said:@Nickenzie - In regards to your suggested the deep wound mechanics.
I think there needs to be two different timers, as indicated just below.
1 - healthy -> DW'ed - Longer than the normal DW timer to compensate for timer going down during a chase.
2 - injured -> DW'ed - Longer timer than the one above.
I think the deep wound timer needs to keep going down in a chase, but slightly slower, so that way if the killer decides to apply pressure on the same DW'ed victim, the killer will not be severely punished for it.
If a victim gets DW'ed while injured and while mending the victim gets "find help" the DW timer will stop before 5% left, here the victim can only stop the bleeding by keep mending, which would be different from the one who got DW'ed while healthy. In this situation the victim who keep mending will occasionally get a skill check where if they fail it, the timer will automatically decrease by 1% - which basically give a maximum of 4 failed skill attempts before going down. The result from this will be that if they're unable to actually get to another victim, they still have the option to stall the bleeding until another victim will get there and help, which will make this DW'ed victim unable to move and will pretty much be a sitting duck, unless they're willing to risk going down. Either way at this point the victim should consider it lucky if it manages to recover from this state.
In regards to the legion, I think it's base move speed should be 4.2m/s, or maybe even 4.1m/s as the legion is based of a victim, also because it's way too easy to keep chasing one who's already DW'ed who also happen to have a timer that keeps going down while in a chase, and with the changes suggested by Nickenzie, it might be necessary.
..and perhaps make legion unable to actually benefit from bloodlust, because legion already has the feral frenzy, which should be more than enough speed boost.
Don't take this to heart but I feel like the skill checks can over complicate things with the DW status effect. However, I see that you understand the main problem with DW: It has the same effect on injured and healthy survivors.
A 60 second DW timer is a lot if you think about it and most survivors should have enough time to mend (or find a teammate to mend if was previously injured). This and having Frenzy get stronger as you tag multiple survivors should help him slow down the game since he's able to DW multiple survivors. Consequently, we need to a way to balance this out because just these two buffs will make him a killing machine. The Legion will have to wait for his power to completely charge to 100% before using it and it takes more time to fully charge it (as well as lasting just a little bit longer). While my changes will definitely make him better, he should stay at 110% because it's the only thing he has when he doesn't have Frenzy.
I'm will not, as I'm just trying to throw some ideas so we can better fix the legion. The skill checks would only begin triggering when the injured victim with DW has reached 5% or less of the DW timer and has also reached the "find help", as this will ensure that unless the victim keeps doing the skill checks it will eventually go down, unless it receives help in time.
However one thing I would say probably would be needed, is that the last survivor should still be able to progress through the "find help" stage, but only if it's the last victim, where it will progress slower than normal. So that the last victim won't be completely depending on someone who isn't there.
Also, what I were suggesting of course were intended to work with what you already have suggested.
You're right, 60 seconds is quite some time, hence also why I suggested two different timers as, one is able to self-mend completely without help and the other will need help with the last part.However with that said, we may have to realize that a rework will be a lot easier and better in the long run.
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Legion with his base kit is potentially quite strong, it's the deep wound mechanics that really throws it over to having struggles with actually downing victims using it's power - feral frenzy, which is what makes it a weak killer.
Also, what you're suggesting with backstabbing and blending in as another victim only seems plausible due to the salesvideo, which really only works in that because legion is seen as "himself" and isn't seen for what he is - a killer, and when David looks away the mask is slipped on, but no magic or other supernatural type of power is being used, he simply puts on a mask and backstabs him, and thats it. Which is basically what @AntiJelly points out, they aren't magic users who can just transform themselvs to look like whoever they wanted.
Also, if legion gets an ability to blend with the other victims, it surely should NOT have access to that speed boost known as feral frenzy. Instead should be able to run, like the victims do, which in killer form would still be accessible and only would make the killer move slightly faster before going on cooldown. Because the feral frenzy movement speed is what gives the legion it's real strength and makes it difficult to balance, because it basically ensures a hit. Legion should still be able fast vault windows and pallets as with the feral frenzy.
As for the backstab ability, I think that should be able to be initiated at any time, but can only be used while blending as a victim, and once the legion downs a victim this way it would go on a cooldown, for at least a minute, because it basically ensures an victim going down regardless of health states and completely avoids the chase.
The deep wound should also be reworked and should be tied with the backstab instead, which would make really good sense, because the killer is coming up close to really make a very serious and deep wound. The deep wound would make sense that if applied with backstab, it wouldn't do anything immediately as the victim would be going down into dying state, but as soon as the victim is back on it's feet the deep wound mechanic would kick in and begin to go down, where it would be mendable by someone else UNLESS it's the last victim standing.
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@Nickenzie - In regards to your suggested the deep wound mechanics.
I think there needs to be two different timers, as indicated just below.
1 - healthy -> DW'ed - Longer than the normal DW timer to compensate for timer going down during a chase.
2 - injured -> DW'ed - Longer timer than the one above.I think the deep wound timer needs to keep going down in a chase, but slightly slower, so that way if the killer decides to apply pressure on the same DW'ed victim, the killer will not be severely punished for it.
If a victim gets DW'ed while injured and while mending the victim gets "find help" the DW timer will stop before 5% left, here the victim can only stop the bleeding by keep mending, which would be different from the one who got DW'ed while healthy. In this situation the victim who keep mending will occasionally get a skill check where if they fail it, the timer will automatically decrease by 1% - which basically give a maximum of 4 failed skill attempts before going down. The result from this will be that if they're unable to actually get to another victim, they still have the option to stall the bleeding until another victim will get there and help, which will make this DW'ed victim unable to move and will pretty much be a sitting duck, unless they're willing to risk going down. Either way at this point the victim should consider it lucky if it manages to recover from this state.
In regards to the legion, I think it's base move speed should be 4.2m/s, or maybe even 4.1m/s as the legion is based of a victim, also because it's way too easy to keep chasing one who's already DW'ed who also happen to have a timer that keeps going down while in a chase, and with the changes suggested by Nickenzie, it might be necessary.
..and perhaps make legion unable to actually benefit from bloodlust, because legion already has the feral frenzy, which should be more than enough speed boost.
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@ReneAensland said:
@Incarnate said:
@Carpemortum said:
Incarnate said:@Carpemortum said:
Incarnate said:
@ad19970 said: People need to give the devs a break though. They did well with so many of the killer designs before, and they are forced to constantly think of new ideas for the killer. So I can understand why'd they screw up a killer once. With that said, I 100% agree with you on this post. Exactly why I always knew they couldn't buff him in any considerable way. Your post perfectly summarizes what's wrong with The Legion and why he can't be fixed. Guess we have to just move on and hope for a better killer design next time. The only way to make Legion viable without making survivors quit the game is to rework him. He needs a rework more urgently than Freddy, sadly. No, we do not, because so many of us in the community have been providing tons of valuable feedback, both before, during and after the PTBs, but instead of taking what we say seriously, they take it with "a grain of salt" and put their own twist on it. Quite many, including me said several times that the legion really needs a rework and should not be released as is. When we voice our concerns, like for instance during a Q&A we all know what Cote will say, we should all go play some civilization for a refreshing change, because that is exactly how seriously he takes our concerns - like not at all. Who's the same one who thinks the killers should be fun and don't need to be viable. So once they actually begin to take our concerns serously, then we can begin to cut them some slack. As I've said before, they should not release content that is not balanced or not ready to be released, because it wrecks all kinds of havoc in doing so. You say they did well with so many killers before, well that certainly depends on perspective, and instead of actually fixing the issues they apply bandaid solutions. There are also many in the community who dont have their panties in a twist over legion, as they are a viable killer.
They're not no. 1 killer, but they're not as trash as everyone wants them to be.
Yes there are some who for very odd reasons fervorously keep defending the legion, claiming that the legion is strong and viable, when it's glaringly obvious that the legion is now by far DbDs current weakest killer, and that legion is non-viable due to being the current weakest killer. I get you want the legion to viable and better, but legion is just not there yet, far from it. And I don't want the legion to be trash, but unfortunately that doesn't change anything.
Besides, people also being fed up with BHVR not taking our concerns, feedback and suggestion on how to fix seriously, that they're only taking it with "a grain of salt" and putting their own twist on things. And that is quite understandable, because this is something that keeps happening recurringly.
Go watch tru3 play some legion. One person at least tried and shows legion is viable. Just need synergy.
I did play legion in the PTB, and I did also see some off Tru3's videos about legion where for most of the times he was using very rare addons, which doesn't say anything about if the killers balanced or not, and believe or not, those addons are likely going to be nerfed, it says nothing about the legion being viable or being balanced for that matter. There a lot of things that the legion needs to be viable, and they're most likely have to rework it's power.
Tru3 stated Legion might be the worst killer.
Yes he did, I don't know if he has changed his mind at this point, but I seriously doubt it.
I agree, the legion is by far the weakest killer in DbD currently, and I have not said anything that should indicate otherwise. -
@Carpemortum said:
Incarnate said:@Carpemortum said:
Incarnate said:
@ad19970 said: People need to give the devs a break though. They did well with so many of the killer designs before, and they are forced to constantly think of new ideas for the killer. So I can understand why'd they screw up a killer once. With that said, I 100% agree with you on this post. Exactly why I always knew they couldn't buff him in any considerable way. Your post perfectly summarizes what's wrong with The Legion and why he can't be fixed. Guess we have to just move on and hope for a better killer design next time. The only way to make Legion viable without making survivors quit the game is to rework him. He needs a rework more urgently than Freddy, sadly. No, we do not, because so many of us in the community have been providing tons of valuable feedback, both before, during and after the PTBs, but instead of taking what we say seriously, they take it with "a grain of salt" and put their own twist on it. Quite many, including me said several times that the legion really needs a rework and should not be released as is. When we voice our concerns, like for instance during a Q&A we all know what Cote will say, we should all go play some civilization for a refreshing change, because that is exactly how seriously he takes our concerns - like not at all. Who's the same one who thinks the killers should be fun and don't need to be viable. So once they actually begin to take our concerns serously, then we can begin to cut them some slack. As I've said before, they should not release content that is not balanced or not ready to be released, because it wrecks all kinds of havoc in doing so. You say they did well with so many killers before, well that certainly depends on perspective, and instead of actually fixing the issues they apply bandaid solutions. There are also many in the community who dont have their panties in a twist over legion, as they are a viable killer.
They're not no. 1 killer, but they're not as trash as everyone wants them to be.
Yes there are some who for very odd reasons fervorously keep defending the legion, claiming that the legion is strong and viable, when it's glaringly obvious that the legion is now by far DbDs current weakest killer, and that legion is non-viable due to being the current weakest killer. I get you want the legion to viable and better, but legion is just not there yet, far from it. And I don't want the legion to be trash, but unfortunately that doesn't change anything.
Besides, people also being fed up with BHVR not taking our concerns, feedback and suggestion on how to fix seriously, that they're only taking it with "a grain of salt" and putting their own twist on things. And that is quite understandable, because this is something that keeps happening recurringly.
Go watch tru3 play some legion. One person at least tried and shows legion is viable. Just need synergy.
I did play legion in the PTB, and I did also see some off Tru3's videos about legion where for most of the times he was using very rare addons, which doesn't say anything about if the killers balanced or not, and believe or not, those addons are likely going to be nerfed, it says nothing about the legion being viable or being balanced for that matter. There a lot of things that the legion needs to be viable, and they're most likely have to rework it's power.
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@Carpemortum said:
Incarnate said:@ad19970 said:
People need to give the devs a break though. They did well with so many of the killer designs before, and they are forced to constantly think of new ideas for the killer. So I can understand why'd they screw up a killer once.
With that said, I 100% agree with you on this post. Exactly why I always knew they couldn't buff him in any considerable way. Your post perfectly summarizes what's wrong with The Legion and why he can't be fixed. Guess we have to just move on and hope for a better killer design next time.
The only way to make Legion viable without making survivors quit the game is to rework him. He needs a rework more urgently than Freddy, sadly.
No, we do not, because so many of us in the community have been providing tons of valuable feedback, both before, during and after the PTBs, but instead of taking what we say seriously, they take it with "a grain of salt" and put their own twist on it. Quite many, including me said several times that the legion really needs a rework and should not be released as is. When we voice our concerns, like for instance during a Q&A we all know what Cote will say, we should all go play some civilization for a refreshing change, because that is exactly how seriously he takes our concerns - like not at all. Who's the same one who thinks the killers should be fun and don't need to be viable. So once they actually begin to take our concerns serously, then we can begin to cut them some slack. As I've said before, they should not release content that is not balanced or not ready to be released, because it wrecks all kinds of havoc in doing so. You say they did well with so many killers before, well that certainly depends on perspective, and instead of actually fixing the issues they apply bandaid solutions.
There are also many in the community who dont have their panties in a twist over legion, as they are a viable killer.
They're not no. 1 killer, but they're not as trash as everyone wants them to be.
Yes there are some who for very odd reasons fervorously keep defending the legion, claiming that the legion is strong and viable, when it's glaringly obvious that the legion is now by far DbDs current weakest killer, and that legion is non-viable due to being the current weakest killer. I get you want the legion to viable and better, but legion is just not there yet, far from it. And I don't want the legion to be trash, but unfortunately that doesn't change anything.
Besides, people also being fed up with BHVR not taking our concerns, feedback and suggestion on how to fix seriously, that they're only taking it with "a grain of salt" and putting their own twist on things. And that is quite understandable, because this is something that keeps happening recurringly.
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@ad19970 said:
People need to give the devs a break though. They did well with so many of the killer designs before, and they are forced to constantly think of new ideas for the killer. So I can understand why'd they screw up a killer once.
With that said, I 100% agree with you on this post. Exactly why I always knew they couldn't buff him in any considerable way. Your post perfectly summarizes what's wrong with The Legion and why he can't be fixed. Guess we have to just move on and hope for a better killer design next time.The only way to make Legion viable without making survivors quit the game is to rework him. He needs a rework more urgently than Freddy, sadly.
No, we do not, because so many of us in the community have been providing tons of valuable feedback, both before, during and after the PTBs, but instead of taking what we say seriously, they take it with "a grain of salt" and put their own twist on it. Quite many, including me said several times that the legion really needs a rework and should not be released as is. When we voice our concerns, like for instance during a Q&A we all know what Cote will say, we should all go play some civilization for a refreshing change, because that is exactly how seriously he takes our concerns - like not at all. Who's the same one who thinks the killers should be fun and don't need to be viable. So once they actually begin to take our concerns serously, then we can begin to cut them some slack. As I've said before, they should not release content that is not balanced or not ready to be released, because it wrecks all kinds of havoc in doing so. You say they did well with so many killers before, well that certainly depends on perspective, and instead of actually fixing the issues they apply bandaid solutions.
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@ad19970 said:
@Incarnate said:
@ad19970 said:
While I like the idea of a killer having abilities of survivors, I too think that this killer isn't very well designed. Things like that can happen though, let's just hope the next killer is better designed.I agree, it can happen that you end up with a design thats bad where you may not immediately realize this, but when you do, you should get back to the drawing board instead of proceeding with releasing it. They were fully aware of the design and balance issues before release and they had EVERY opportunity to postpone the release, and quite frankly I'd rather they do that than they release something thats quite obviously a blatant rehashed reuse of the spirits power (a ripoff), with a few additions and alterations, but not only that, it's very poorly executed and has so many balance issues that makes it even worse than Freddy. And it's not like they weren't told how to actually fix it, because the majority of the people who participated in the PTB provided tons of feedback along with suggestions on how to specifically fix both the legion and the deep wound mechanic. But what do they do? They release the killer with a few minor tweaks that doesn't accomplish anything in regards to the issues, they're still very much there and it's the same way people deal with them. The only thing I'm hoping for is the BHVR begins to realize exactly how important it is to listen to the community and not take everything said with "a grain of salt", and not twist things around but instead use whats being suggested more as is, and the same with the mindset that killers don't need to be viable just fun - that certainly needs to change too, because competitive viability is extremely important in a competitive game, because otherwise high rank play will remain incredibly stale and boring because most killers aren't designed to be viable in high rank play. But as I said, BHVR were fully aware that this design was bad and yet they released it - which also says something about BHVR.
I'm sorry but most suggestions I read on the forums were terrible. They would just overbuff him and make him the by far most hated killer. Then he'd just be the killer to reduce the amount of survivor players even more. They would have to redesign his whole Frenzy ability before they could make him viable.
Also I can imagine that they didn't realise his big balancing problems before they released him on PTB. Designing a fun killer isn't that easy, I'm pretty sure. And after the ptb release they wouldn't have had enough time to totally redesign his entire ability before the official release. I'm guessing they've also already started to work on the next killer, since they are trying to follow their roadmap.There were quite many that didn't focus on "overbuffing" but fixing the issues that was the root of his most glaring weaknesses while still making it balanced for both sides, and some fixes were simpler than others. Also there are two things here that is important to seperate legions power and the deep wound mechanic, where his most obvious weakness was how the deep wound mechanic works and how it's being dealt with. Because as is, people are just taking one or a few feral frenzy hits, then run away or mend right before the killer, then they self-care - and boom all the killers efforts have been undone in regards to this victim. The second most glaring issue is that while being injured and being one hit away from going down, taking the feral frenzy hit won't down you even when being injured, which makes absolutely no sense, which also one the main reasons why the legion struggles to down anyone with it's power. But there were many good suggestions which for the most part were either identical, almost identical or very similar, so the majority of the people were point out how to fix it and the devs took it with "a grain of salt" and put their own twist on it - the result speaks for itself, in a bad way.
They should've made a more unique power than blatantly reuse one thats already in the game, one that was just released a few months ago, because at the core of the power it's just the spirits power.
They nerfed him before the PTB, but it doesn't matter if they were close to release or not, when they realized the balancing issues, they should not release something that is not ready to be released, no matter what has been promised or scheduled, and the impatient ones in the community will have to learn a very important virtue called patience. Also in regards to realizing the balance issues, already within a few hours on day one of PTB release, there were so many who were agreeing on the same issues and the same types of fixes. The devs had more than enough time, to make changes during the PTB, then roll out another PTB update, have players test that, receive feedback and suggestions, and keep on repeating the process until they got the balance issues fixed. But they do that? No! Should they? Most certainly, because that is how the PTB should be used in the first place, not try and demo it so they can attempt to build hype for it. It's better to release something that is ready for release than to release something wrecks all kinds of havoc on the balance in the attempt to release it on time.
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@ad19970 said:
While I like the idea of a killer having abilities of survivors, I too think that this killer isn't very well designed. Things like that can happen though, let's just hope the next killer is better designed.I agree, it can happen that you end up with a design thats bad where you may not immediately realize this, but when you do, you should get back to the drawing board instead of proceeding with releasing it. They were fully aware of the design and balance issues before release and they had EVERY opportunity to postpone the release, and quite frankly I'd rather they do that than they release something thats quite obviously a blatant rehashed reuse of the spirits power (a ripoff), with a few additions and alterations, but not only that, it's very poorly executed and has so many balance issues that makes it even worse than Freddy. And it's not like they weren't told how to actually fix it, because the majority of the people who participated in the PTB provided tons of feedback along with suggestions on how to specifically fix both the legion and the deep wound mechanic. But what do they do? They release the killer with a few minor tweaks that doesn't accomplish anything in regards to the issues, they're still very much there and it's the same way people deal with them. The only thing I'm hoping for is the BHVR begins to realize exactly how important it is to listen to the community and not take everything said with "a grain of salt", and not twist things around but instead use whats being suggested more as is, and the same with the mindset that killers don't need to be viable just fun - that certainly needs to change too, because competitive viability is extremely important in a competitive game, because otherwise high rank play will remain incredibly stale and boring because most killers aren't designed to be viable in high rank play. But as I said, BHVR were fully aware that this design was bad and yet they released it - which also says something about BHVR.
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@jaerthebear said:
Like, holy molyHow, why, did they release in this state?
Also why tf is Susie locked behind auric cells?
B r u h
Ask the devs why they did, so many people (the majority of people who participated in the PTB) told them how to fix the legion during the PTB, but as always they only take what people say with "a grain of salt" and put their twist on it.
Maybe @Janick can answer why they chose to go ahead with the release of the legion when they were fully aware of the many issues there were and are with the legion. Because quite frankly, in this state, you cannot with any amount decency (or lack there of) charge money for this killer.
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@yeet said:
@Incarnate said:
@yeet said:
Let's be completely honest, everything about this killer is miserable.
His power is incredibly poor, one of the worst in the game in fact.
His perks are mediocre at best, and uninspired in design.
His design is uninspired, and his backstory incoherent, and his power doesn't match his theme.
He is not fun to play as, or against, the play experience as him is miserable, and playing against him is so trivial it's boring.
I really cannot understand how we come off of a killer like the spirit, into whatever abomination we have here.
And the people trying to defend it are even more pathetic....and it's not like the devs weren't told this by the majority of people who participated, they had every opportunity to not release it to the live game UNTIL it was ready - they were full aware of that the legion were in need of an overhaul, even did the opposite of what was suggested to fix him.
So yeah, the devs have ZERO excuses this time, they were fully aware of the issues!
they tell us they want to "make killers that are fun for both sides"
legion fails to be fun for anyoneThey also fail to realize, playing a killer that isn't competitively viable or challenging for sides, won't be fun for both sides. Legion is no fun for either side. They really should've waited with releasing this killer.
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@yeet said:
Let's be completely honest, everything about this killer is miserable.
His power is incredibly poor, one of the worst in the game in fact.
His perks are mediocre at best, and uninspired in design.
His design is uninspired, and his backstory incoherent, and his power doesn't match his theme.
He is not fun to play as, or against, the play experience as him is miserable, and playing against him is so trivial it's boring.
I really cannot understand how we come off of a killer like the spirit, into whatever abomination we have here.
And the people trying to defend it are even more pathetic....and it's not like the devs weren't told this by the majority of people who participated, they had every opportunity to not release it to the live game UNTIL it was ready - they were full aware of that the legion were in need of an overhaul, even did the opposite of what was suggested to fix him.
So yeah, the devs have ZERO excuses this time, they were fully aware of the issues!
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I definitely think more ideas should be explored, as it is quite boring to just keep chasing, keep being looped or keep being chased and keep looping. There are few other option, thats called breaking line of sight or using lockers. Lockers are a gamble, but certainly can be used to lose the killer. Breaking line of sight is also viable, trying to use the environment to blend it, basically hiding. It can work but it is situational.
There several things that haven't been explored yet, like being able to affect the light - turning off lights.
Being able to open and close doors and windows.
Being able to pick stones that could be thrown to create a distraction (I know there is a perk for it, but I think it should be universally available without a perk.)
Weapons could also be considered (but only have very, very limited amounts of uses) - mostly to used to harass the killer than anything else, these should only be possible to be found in the map and cannot be extracted from the map.In regards to the idea, I think it's a decent option to have, especially if one is trying to evade the killer through hiding.
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How about making the trapper able to trap more than just the ground, like booby trap lockers, chests, windows, pallets (both used and unused), etc. Basically anything besides hooks that can be interacted with, heck even generators. I think that would make him a lot stronger and a lot more viable even on higher ranks. Because this would mean that victim players should play a lot more cautiosly and they might run into a situation where they don't have time to check if there is a trap before interacting with it, like when being chased.
So like for example it the trapper predicts a certain pallet will be looped, he could trap it, so if the victims don't spend time actually checking to see if it's boobytrapped. So once the chase is ongoing and the victim is attempting to loop and gets to the point where he/she needs to drop the pallet, then they'll be caught in a narly trap.
This would easily make the trapper more difficult to deal with at higher ranks because he will litterally make people to think twice before using any interactable as it could be booby-trapped, which will help him buy more time.
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@Dreamnomad said:
I don't really see a reason to switch down from Evil Within 2. Nor do I see a reason for Myers to have bloodlust at EW1. Evil Within 1 is meant to be the stalking phase of the game. He shouldn't be chasing people to the point that he gains bloodlust at that stage.IF Myers was able to more freely switch between EW1 and 2, then he could go stealthy IF the situation called for it, I wouldn't mind him not being able to benefit from bloodlust in EW1. This would make it so you could use EW2 to actually chase victims into a more preferable locations where you could use LOS-blockers more efficiently. Like say you've chased the victim into a building, this could be the infamous shack where the victim will try to loop you, so instead you go on the other side of the building so line of sight is broken and then switch to EW1 and wait a very short amount until you can see victim beginning to break away from the shack and when this happens you'll initiate the chase but cut off the victim from the shack, where you'd then switch to EW2 once you're discovered/chase has been initiated gamemechanically. Being able to switch more freely between EW1 and 2 would also mean that you could become just slightly faster, where if the victim doesn't pay attention, you'd be able to capitalize on it and score a hit, which may just injure but could also down the victim if already injured.
@Dreamnomad said:
About the only thing I actually really would like to see change for Myers is for survivor stalking to decay over time. It really is annoying that his ability has a finite amount of use. Once all the survivors have reached max stalking, he can no longer reach EW3. I don't want this to be abused. Something like once a survivor has reached max stalking after 30 seconds it begins to decay at a rate of 1% every 3 seconds to a maximum of 30% decay (leaving the survivor at 70% progress until stalked again).@ReneAensland said:
@Incarnate said:
@Carpemortum said:
steezo_de said:Bloodlust and EW1 does not seem right to me at all. He's a stalker and this early phase is like the beginning of any of his movies. He's slow. The build up is when he eventually reaches EW3 where he can step quickly down a flight of stairs or power walk through a hospital glass door. Myers should never get Legion's movement burst. That would make him into a running joke.
Thank you. It fits his movie and character perfectly. And if you stay in EW1 all game you're likely running scratched mirror sneak or a meme build. So bloodlust would be irrelevant.
Just in case you didn't know, the bloodlust is a chase catch-up mechanic, and Myers should not be excluded from this catch-up mechanic, because Myers do happen to have to chases in EW1, and also being forced to stalk up to EW2 completely ruins the stalking stealth playstyle. The main problem is that he can't revert to EW1 to after going into EW2 which means that once you go into EW2 then you cannot be playing him like a sneaking stalker, you have to commit to playing overtly once in EW2 which is ruins the whole intended stealthy stalker play. Hence why I'm suggesting he should be able to revert back to EW1, just like Pig can freely switch between sneaking and just moving.
Except we cannot grab, we cannot hit, we cannot pull off anyone without coming out of stealth.
Myers 1 can do all of that.
We don't reach a limit that makes survivors Exposed so we do not get granted s huge speed increase for a minute.
Our vision is also extremely impaired on many maps during our stealth phase. Reverse Bear Traps are all RNG oriented, the survivor can get lucky and remove it on the first box.
Your rebuttal?Well, the Pig has ZERO terror radius when crouching and she is hard to see when she's crouched, and she can make that dash attack with a 6.4m/s movespeed, so she can close the gap quite quickly - the last part is most likely why she's made not to be able to pull anyone of the generators when coming out of stealth.
A huge speed increase? Pig has a base speed of 4.6m/s, it's the same speed Myers has in EW2/3, which he can only gain from stalking up and losing his initial low terror radius. EW2 and 3 has the exact same move speed so Myers doesn't gain increased movement speed from going into EW3, as you were claiming he does. What Myers actually get from going into EW3 are only:
- Slightly increase lunge distance
- Double Damage (basically exposed status)
- Moderately increased vaulting speed (1.3s)
The RBTs aren't actually RNG-based, only being able to remove them are. An RBT'ed victim is extremely vulnerable to being tunnelled, because they have to run around to try and get the key and they only have a limited time to do so - granted they could be lucky to get it off in the first try, but then again they could be very unlucky and not get it until the last box, and it's not quite RNG, only which box has the key is the RNG part. But the very fact that they're RBTed means they're much more predictable and thus it will be much easier to actually hunt them, whether that is intended or not. If they don't make it in time then that just an easy kill - consider the amount of time saved in not having to chase that victim any more. Furthermore, if you keep chasing them away from the boxes, then they're not likely to make it. Where exposed only ensures you can down them in one hit, that doesn't necessarily mean anything because the killer still gotta hit and hook the victim and whether that is going to happen or not depends on the situation, like how well they evade Myers and his hits, hooks nearby being saboed, killer being harassed while trying to get to a hook, decisive strike and so on. Not to mention that it actually takes quite a while to build up to EW3 and you might at actually run into the problem that you need to switch victim because the victim have been stalked the maximum amount it can, where it can actually become very difficult to reach. Victims cannot dodge the RBT once it's there, and it's just something you stuff on them once they're downed.
Making it so Myers can freely switch between EW1 and EW2 would make quite a difference, as that would certainly help him switching between being the stealthy stalker and chaser. This would also make EW1 much more viable at red ranks.
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People, you know how one is incentivized to make comment when one disagree because there isn't a disagree button? Same deal here, if you find something funny, make a comment about it and maybe add why it is. I know its easier to just click a button, but that doesn't tell anything about why you find it funny or if you find it funny in a good, bad way or you're just using it to patronize people. So if you'd rather there was a button so you didn't have to post, well... quit being lazy and make a comment about it.
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@Carpemortum said:
Even without addons. As I said before. He was built with a playstyle, multiple even, within his kit. You're not limited to either. Without addons nurse would be....much harder to wreck with. Not impossible.You cannot play a character suboptimally and expect optimal results. Period.
But Nurse does have access to bloodlust irregardless of her using her power or not, whether she has addons or not. The main point being she is capable of benefitting from bloodlust whether she uses it or not, whether she uses her power or not, whether she chases or not - she has access to bloodlust whether she's played optimally or not.
@Carpemortum said:
You cant freely switch between ew2/3, it requires a CERTAIN PLAYSTYLE to use that switching. You shouldnt be able to drop into ew1 whenever. EW1 ks him stalking. People unaware of his presence. Once hes known hes known. If you choose to play pure stall ew1 build. You can.I know you can't switch freely between EW2/3 and that isn't what I'm suggesting.
So why do you think he should not be able to switch back to EW1, when EVERY other killer has that type of CONTROL over their power? - like for instance the Pig which happens to be a killer who also is built for stalking and chasing. Are you not getting that with him not being able to revert back to EW1 he is FORCED BY DESIGN into a certain playstyle WITHOUT the ability to change it during the match?!Pure stall? He doesn't stall the game in EW1. Guess how viable EW1 is in red ranks? It's not very viable, because you can only use it as long as you don't stalk up, which defeats its purpose. It should be one you CAN use when you NEED it, NOT BE FORCED TO BE IN IT OR NOT AT ALL.
@Carpemortum said:
You're the one trying to force him into a certain playstyle. Switching from ew1/2 would make it the meta, and "only way" to play him efficiently without addons.Hes fine as is. You can play him optimally. You can play hin for fun. You can play with or without addons.
But if you do not build or play him as intended, within his kit, bloodlust in mind when he was released/tweaked, as optimally as possible. You. Cannot. Expect. Optimal. Results.
Not trying to force any playstyle on anyone who's playing him with this tweak/rework, and it won't force any playstyle on those playing him, on the contrary what it does is GIVE MORE OPTIONS.
He's fine? Going ask again, how viable is EW1 do you think? The answer is, not very viable. Guess why that is?
Because in red ranks players are very aware of the killers whereabouts and have much more skill than most others, which easily counters EW1, which makes EW1 not that viable in red ranks. This isn't because EW1 is bad, no this is because as it currently is you either use it or you don't, which means you stalk up to EW2 or you don't, but if you do you're forced to play Myers as a chaser because you cannot revert to EW1. In other words, because you're forced into an either or type of situation, you cannot really make use of EW1 in red ranks because you cannot switch to it when you actually NEED it.All of the EW levels have certain playstyles intended for them by design, but what is optimal and intended doesn't really matter, because you can play any killer differently than intended and still succeed, in regards to what is optimal, there are different playstyles and strategies there are more optimal. And this suggestion isn't about what I expect or how I play Myers, but the fact that he lacks more flexibility and control over his power. Especially with Myers his power directly dictates what playstyles you should attempt to use, it's the EW levels that directly dictates this, and Myers don't have much control over it - he can only progress it, where progressing it leads to directly to requiring a different way to play him than opposed to the lower EWs.
@Carpemortum said:
You say it's crazy that people who like to play him, are okay how he is, but you feel the need for a change to make them more optimal? That's you wanting them to play a certain way friend...No, thats me wanting Myers to have more flexibility and control over his power, what I'm suggesting won't stop people from going into EW2, EW3 or keep playing him as they usually do, but it will give the OPTION to revert back to being stealthy if the situation calls for it.> @Wolf74 said:
@Wolf74 said:
@Incarnate said:
The core slight rework/tweaks to Shape/Myers.
- Make Myers be able to switch between EW1-2 freely.
- Make Myers be able to benefit from bloodlust in EW1 as well.
What do you think?
- No.
- YES!
At least one other here gets it, any others?
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Carpemortum said:>Meyers is able to benefit from it. If you limit yourself to EW1, you cant get it. That also means you're playing a stalk build. Why else would you not go EW2.
Which is quite ridiculous that you cannot in EW1, as that litterally forces you to go to higher EWs, which is the equivalent of forcing you to play in a certain way. Furthermore, if being designed around stalking and having low terror radius, then pig shouldn't be able to get it as she designed around stalking too. Not only is she designed around that but she also has a default 4.6m/s move speed and she can also charge, so does she really need it. According to your logic then she doesn't. -
@Dreamnomad said:
I didn't really feel like reading all of that, but my opinion is that The Shape is one of the best designed killers and shouldn't have any big changes.What I'm suggesting aren't big changes, but quite reasonable changes.
TLDR Edition:
The core slight rework/tweaks to Shape/Myers.
- Make Myers be able to switch between EW1-2 freely.
- Make Myers be able to benefit from bloodlust in EW1 as well.
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@Dreamnomad said:
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
I think the First Person for Killers and Third Person for survivors is one of the Best design decisions in the game.No need to change anything here.
+1. This was a really good design choice and it would be a very poor mistake to mess with it.
I disagree, because it's what allows for certain things to happen which in my opinion is some of the reason why killers aren't that feared, because you can easily see where the killer is and you can easily adjust your movement and strategy in relation to the killer, why? Because you can see the killer WITHOUT having to expose any parts of your characters body. This makes playing stealthy so, so much more easy.
I happen to think it's bad design choice, I think both sides should be first person perspective, and most certainly not 3rd person perspective.
For instance this is what makes it so easy to loop killers, because you can easily see where the killer is in relation to yourself, like for instance if you're trying to loop the killer around obstacles, you can easily see where the killer is going without having to actually turn your character to see. It also makes the the game much less immersive than if it had been first person perspective.
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3rd person view imbalances the game for BOTH sides.
It's not a good thing that the victims has 3rd person view because this allows for so many things that quite frankly they should not be able to, like for instance looking around corners or looking over obstacles WITHOUT having exposing parts of their body. -
@Rebel_Raven said:
Incarnate said:@Rebel_Raven said:
@Incarnate said:
The hatch is a really bad gameplay mechanic, so is two exits. Only one exit is necessary.
I gotta disagree. Two exits prevent a killer with NOED from just standing at the gate controls, or gate, swatting people down.
One exit is just a hell of a bottle neck.
The hatch could have been done better, but without it, the 4th survivor, the last one left would have next to no chance to survive. The killer would not have much of a challenge.
Push comes to shove, a survivor will just hide, and troll the killer since they feel cornered otherwise.
But hey, you can grab people jumping into the hatch, prevent 2 generators from getting done, or slug the last 2. That should take care of most encounters.
Yeah? The thing is though NOED, is ONLY necessary because there are two exits.
Two exits is also a problem because the killer cannot be at two places at once, and with two exits it's way more likely everyone escapes if no one at that point has been sacrificed. The two exits is also a problem.
Still, the hatch is a really bad gameplay mechanic, especially also because the only way to avoid it is what you just explained, and it sucks to be slugged. In regards to grabbing, that requires you to be able to actually grab, which is why there are stand offs in the first place.
I must disagree once again.
If you will, consider your average chase.
You hit a survivor. They get a speed boost. You wipe your blade, then resume the chase.
How far do they usually get?
That distance from the escape point is basically a guaranteed escape.
Now lets factor in the second necessary hit to down a healthy survivor which means catching up, and hitting them again.
That distance from the escape point is still pretty guaranteed. They flop, and if that doesn't get them out, the crawling while you wipe your blade again just might.This also applies to the hatch, basically.
And them there's dead hard which can extend the chase, or DS which can also make a longer chase.
Or a survivor using Lithe or Balanced Landing. I've even seen some use sprint burst as a poor mans dead hard.That is a large area of safety around the escape points.
NOED would still be incredibly useful even with one exit.
With just one exit a killer can basically hold the game hostage by standing at the lever. Especially with NOED to help prevent the gate from opening which is like an even worse hatch standoff.
Infact the killer can just go to the controls and use that as their only objective to guard.
Even with current hatch mechanics it will not open until there is 1 survivor left alive (or they use a key) so unless 3 get killed the hatch will not open.The hatch is far from perfect, I agree, but it's almost always the killers fault it opens.
Being slugged does suck. If it keeps happening I'm pretty sure there are 1 or 2 perks that let you fight slugging.
As for the grab, you just gotta fake them out. Easier said than done, sure, but possible.
Considering the average survival rate, that is approximately two survivors out four, with two exits and a hatch
So with one exit and one hatch that could still be two as both can take a hit before going down and can block a hit from each, and even if one goes down the other one can still escape. With two exits and a hatch, it's more than likely everyone will escape if everyone is still standing at the time the gates are opened. WHY? Well as I said the killer can only be at one place at one time, so if the killer chasing one or two to one exit then the other rest will just go to the other exit - basically at this point the killer could just as well accept the loss.If they removed one exit I wouldn't mind they made NOED not usable for those matches where there is only one exit.
They could easily fix the lever issue, have more than one lever, one at the control panel near the exit and another one further away from there (a random location), this way the killer cannot hold the game hostage.
There is only two, and one is a onetime use and the other makes you be always injured.
The hatch won't even spawn unless certain requirements are met:
The Hatch will become visible ("spawn") whenever the number of fully repaired generators exceeds the number of living Survivors by 1So two exits and a hatch, is a problem. One exit and a hatch, isn't a problem, only if NOED is in play, otherwise it can easily be made so it won't be a problem.
Say there was one exit and one hatch, two control levers where only one needs to be pulled/activated, one will be at the control panel near the exit the other one at a random location further away from the exit. Say the killer decides to hard camp at the exits when all generators are repaired and there are still two survivors left. Guess what? That would've been a really bad move to hard camp the exit, because now both victims will now become survivors, because both can endure at least one hit, where the killer is not big enough to block the entire gate, and the killer won't be fast enough to strike twice to down a victim, only one who could somehow apply exposes status on at least one could ensure a down, otherwise both would survive. Lets take another example with the same parameters, so the killer has succesfully found both victims near the other control panel and the exit has been opened, and the victims both begins to run and the killer gives chase. Here both of the victims take a hit for each other (blocking the killers hit) while continuing to run - the killer might be successfull in downing one but highly unlikely if they do this strategy. Only if the killer could apply exposed status would the killer be sure of a down, otherwise both would also escape.
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Speaking of holding down the button, I'm quite sure survivor/victim players would like for actions that takes time to progress would be toggleable, so that instead of holding down the button for the entirety of it, they could instead toggle it on and off. So first click would toggle on which would make it progress automatically, any skill check would still need to be passed, second click would toggle it off. It's quite annoying and tiring to keep holding down the button just to progress an action, like repairing a generator.
This would actually also deal with tapping to avoid skill checks.
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@Carpemortum said:
Incarnate said:@Carpemortum said:
steezo_de said:
Bloodlust and EW1 does not seem right to me at all. He's a stalker and this early phase is like the beginning of any of his movies. He's slow. The build up is when he eventually reaches EW3 where he can step quickly down a flight of stairs or power walk through a hospital glass door. Myers should never get Legion's movement burst. That would make him into a running joke.
Thank you. It fits his movie and character perfectly. And if you stay in EW1 all game you're likely running scratched mirror sneak or a meme build. So bloodlust would be irrelevant.
Just in case you didn't know, the bloodlust is a chase catch-up mechanic, and Myers should not be excluded from this catch-up mechanic, because Myers do happen to have to chases in EW1, and also being forced to stalk up to EW2 completely ruins the stalking stealth playstyle. The main problem is that he can't revert to EW1 to after going into EW2 which means that once you go into EW2 then you cannot be playing him like a sneaking stalker, you have to commit to playing overtly once in EW2 which is ruins the whole intended stealthy stalker play. Hence why I'm suggesting he should be able to revert back to EW1, just like Pig can freely switch between sneaking and just moving.
Dead rabbit and monitor and abuse say you absolutely can stalk in ew2
First of all, I'm talking about it from a perspective WITHOUT addons, because thats the only way you can discuss if a powers balance and so on, because addons and other things that affect it is a variable which you cannot balance the base power after. With that said, I'm not saying you can't stalk in EW2, but I'm saying that with the base powers EW2 Myers becomes more a chaser than a stalker and most of his stealth play is gone, and he can't revert back to the stealth play afterwards because he can't revert from EW2 to EW1.
So what I'm saying is that if Myers was able to more freely switch between EW2 and EW1, then it would be better. Where in high ranks that would be a really good thing, because EW1 as it is currently it's basically useless but actually isn't in various situations where if Myers were able to switch back to EW1, then he'd be able to switch between being a stealthy stalker and a chaser. Where I could definitely see how being able switch from EW2 to EW1 really would make a difference.
What seriously makes less sense is that people who like to play him would rather he would remain as is, instead of letting become much more flexible, adaptable and would also add some mindgame to his kit.
The most important aspect of this tweak would namely be his power could freely switch between EW1 and EW2 - basically switching between stealthy stalker and chaser.
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@Rebel_Raven said:
@Incarnate said:
The hatch is a really bad gameplay mechanic, so is two exits. Only one exit is necessary.I gotta disagree. Two exits prevent a killer with NOED from just standing at the gate controls, or gate, swatting people down.
One exit is just a hell of a bottle neck.The hatch could have been done better, but without it, the 4th survivor, the last one left would have next to no chance to survive. The killer would not have much of a challenge.
Push comes to shove, a survivor will just hide, and troll the killer since they feel cornered otherwise.
But hey, you can grab people jumping into the hatch, prevent 2 generators from getting done, or slug the last 2. That should take care of most encounters.Yeah? The thing is though NOED, is ONLY necessary because there are two exits.
Two exits is also a problem because the killer cannot be at two places at once, and with two exits it's way more likely everyone escapes if no one at that point has been sacrificed. The two exits is also a problem.Still, the hatch is a really bad gameplay mechanic, especially also because the only way to avoid it is what you just explained, and it sucks to be slugged. In regards to grabbing, that requires you to be able to actually grab, which is why there are stand offs in the first place.
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@Cardgrey said:
So umm why respect the 4%?
Honestly what’s the story behind that?
Also I get told things that isn’t respectful a few time a day at least.
So why respect your 4% if u can’t respect me o.oThere really is no such thing as having to respect the 4% - but it's a clear indicator that the devs really should rework the hook mechanics, amongst others change it from RNG to Skill based.
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@Zagrid said:
Probably just some person being tired of being the last one alive and dying without having the chance to look for hatch. So many of these posts spawn from salt.Doesn't really matter why they "spawn", the main point is that they're indicators of something not being as it should. It's an issue if you ask me, a balance issue.
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@Master said:
In my opinion, in a horror game all players hould play in first person.
It takes away so much if you can look aroudn corners without exposing yourelf etc. Just my opinion though and ofc it will never happen in DBDI completely agree, everyone should've had 1st person perspective, the third person perspective is one of the things that imbalances the game quite alot.
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The hatch is a really bad gameplay mechanic, so is two exits. Only one exit is necessary.
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@Carpemortum said:
Incarnate said:@Peanits said:
@Incarnate said:
@Peanits said:
@Incarnate said:
>Meyers is able to benefit from it. If you limit yourself to EW1, you cant get it. That also means you're playing a stalk build. Why else would you not go EW2.
Which is quite ridiculous that you cannot in EW1, as that litterally forces you to go to higher EWs, which is the equivalent of forcing you to play in a certain way. Furthermore, if being designed around stalking and having a low terror radius means you shouldn't have bloodlust, then for instance pig shouldn't be able to get it as she designed around stalking too. Not only is she designed around that but she also has a default 4.6m/s move speed and she can also charge so does she really need it? I don't think she does.
The pig, like Myers, also has two options. She can crouch around, or she can chase. Likewise, Myers can sneak around in EW1 and try to outsmart the survivors to get hits, or he can stalk to tier up and then chase. If you manage to get bloodlust while crouching after survivors, I don't know what you did right or what they did wrong, but you earned it.
There is a wrong way to play some killers. Just because something is an option doesn't mean it's going to be an optimal way to play. In the case of Myers, trying to brute force in EW1 is objectively the wrong way to play it. The strength of EW1 is his low terror radius, making it possible to sneak up on survivors and get a surprise hit. He is not meant to chase in this mode. If you do decide to follow through for a second hit, you're supposed to use LOS blockers to get closer and go for another surprise attack when the survivor feels like they've escaped. If you just want to chase, tier up.
There is something quite wrong with what you're saying there, just because some way of playing isn't the optimal way, shouldn't mean you should be forced to play the intended or optimal way to play it, which the decision to exclude bloodlust from EW1 exactly does, it specifically forces the killer to play in a certain way - the intended way. Every killer should have the option to play how they damn well please, whether it be optimal, intended, do an m1 bruteforce playstyle or a completely different way of playing.
You and I are going to have to agree to disagree there. I don't think you should be able to intentionally play something the wrong way and expect good results. I could play the nurse without blinking but that doesn't mean it's going to be good. If you choose not to use your power, you are handicapping yourself.
I ain't going to stop you if that's how you want to play him, but it's like not using pallets or windows as a survivor and expecting everything to come up Milhouse. It's just not gonna' happen.
There is no wrong way to play unless you're cheating, exploiting or abusing unintended game mechanics to get an unfair advantage or impose a disadvantage to your opponent and that way gain an unfair advantage.
It's not like how bloodlust is now would be much of a buff to Myers EW1, but it certainly would make it possible to keep playing him more "sneaky". The "problem" with Myers power is that you can't freely choose when to use it, you can either choose to use it or not, but when you do you have to commit to it, which is why many would remain in EW1 until they need to go higher, where others just stalk up the first chance they get. Which is what I'm talking about, you should be able to play him and any other killer as you like, but with Myers due to the fact that you cannot revert you're LITERALLY forced to play a certain way, which not being capable of benefitting from bloodlust in EW1 contributes to.
Well.. Any other 4.2m/s killer can play m1 style and still get bloodlust, and whether it's going to end bad or not is completely irrelevant as every player should be able to play as they want and not be forced to play a certain way, just because some think that it's a wrong way to play. That is EXACTLY what this design decision does, is force players to play a specific way because otherwise it most likely will end badly.
@Peanits said:
In the case of Myers, you are not meant to chase people in EW1, which is why by design he moves slower and has next to no lunge.
You said it yourself, he's already handicapped because he's not meant to chase his victims in EW1 and by design he moves slower and has next to no lunge, but that shouldn't mean he shouldn't be able to chase if it came to it, which is EXACTLY what it does that he can't benefit from bloodlust in EW1 - he can't chase on equal terms as other killers, which is why there is a catch up chase mechanic, because if it's not there you can be endlessly looped. The exactly why the bloodlust mechanic is there, as catch up chase mechanic, to help deal with the looping issue. So by design, the devs are really saying we want Myers to be endlessly loopable when in EW1, but hey if thats a problem you can just stalk up to EW2 and then be a chaser, because otherwise you're not playing him as we want you to.
You don't see a problem with players being forced to play a certain way?
You're not forced to play a certain way. If you choose to stay at EW1 you know you are doing it, are not using his power AS IT WAS CREATED, and are probably using mirror or a meme build for scares.
You can choose to play optimally. You can choose that with EW1 builds or regular ones. It's your choice.
But if you want to play him a certain way, that is not optimal for his kit as is in game, you cannot expect optimal results. Period.
Yes, you're AUTOMATICALLY force to play a certain way - the intended way, because if you don't you're going to suffer for it, because you cannot chase anyone down unless stalk up, ONLY because you can't benefit from bloodlust in EW1 - he can basically be looped endlessly because he cannot benefit from the chase CATCH-UP MECHANICS aka Bloodlust in EW1.
This isn't about playing in a way thats not optimal for his kit, but the very fact that because of Myers not being able to benefit from bloodlust in EW1 means that you're FORCED to stalk up to EW2 to be able to benefit from bloodlust, where going from EW1 to EW2 affects how you're going to play Myers quite significantly due to the fact that you suddenly don't have a low terror radius. It basically makes his power a commit or don't the power kind of thing, because once you've gone EW2 you have no way to go back to stealth play - which ruins the whole stealth play that is intended with him.
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Hatch Rework should be equal to Hatch Removal.
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@Carpemortum said:
steezo_de said:Bloodlust and EW1 does not seem right to me at all. He's a stalker and this early phase is like the beginning of any of his movies. He's slow. The build up is when he eventually reaches EW3 where he can step quickly down a flight of stairs or power walk through a hospital glass door. Myers should never get Legion's movement burst. That would make him into a running joke.
Thank you. It fits his movie and character perfectly. And if you stay in EW1 all game you're likely running scratched mirror sneak or a meme build. So bloodlust would be irrelevant.
Just in case you didn't know, the bloodlust is a chase catch-up mechanic, and Myers should not be excluded from this catch-up mechanic, because Myers do happen to have to chases in EW1, and also being forced to stalk up to EW2 completely ruins the stalking stealth playstyle. The main problem is that he can't revert to EW1 to after going into EW2 which means that once you go into EW2 then you cannot be playing him like a sneaking stalker, you have to commit to playing overtly once in EW2 which is ruins the whole intended stealthy stalker play. Hence why I'm suggesting he should be able to revert back to EW1, just like Pig can freely switch between sneaking and just moving.
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@ad19970 said:
I think giving survivors an increased speed for repairing and healing for each dead survivor would be the best way to solve this problem. Like a 40% increased repairing speed for every dead or disconnected survivor, and a 20% increased healing speed for every dead or disconnected survivor. I do feel like this should only be applied once gen rush has been nerfed a bit though.The problem isn't just for survivors/victims, but also for the killers - it's doublesided issue, as I just mentioned before - "This also illustrates quite well why Killers can be struggling to keep up as more generators are done and less survivors being dead." So if you were giving remaining survivors/victims an increased repairing speed you would just be making it much harder for the killer.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@Incarnate said:
@AlwaysInAGoodShape - This also illustrates quite well why Killers can be struggling to keep up as more generators are done and less survivors being dead.Exactly! It creates problems on both sides!
Either then killer gets victimised and steamrolled or the survivors become hopeless and hatch dependant!
Yep - it's a fundamental design and balance flaw we're all suffering because of.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape - This also illustrates quite well why Killers can be struggling to keep up as more generators are done and less survivors being dead.
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@JanTheMan said:
Just play The Pig if you think she's so good...Thats not the point of using her for comparison - the main reason of using her for comparison is to make it so obvious why he actually should have these tweaks.
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Personally, I've always thought the hook mechanic were bad, especially because they're based on RNG rather than skill, I for one would like to see the hook mechanics change to something more skill based, and something that doesn't break our space bar or other button due to having to keep mashing it.
Firstly the 3 times hook mechanic I think is bad, simply due to the fact that you can be re-hooked quite fast, and thus can be eliminated from the game quite fast, all due to other survivors/victims not caring about if they make a safe save.
Secondly, having to keep mashing your spacebar or other button, also quite bad and boring, and it wears on your control device unnecessarily.
Thirdly, your chances of getting of the hook being completely based on RNG is very bad - RNG is always bad for gameplay if use improperly, like in this game with the hooks or bear traps.
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@Peanits said:
@Incarnate said:
@Peanits said:
@Incarnate said:
>Meyers is able to benefit from it. If you limit yourself to EW1, you cant get it. That also means you're playing a stalk build. Why else would you not go EW2.Which is quite ridiculous that you cannot in EW1, as that litterally forces you to go to higher EWs, which is the equivalent of forcing you to play in a certain way. Furthermore, if being designed around stalking and having a low terror radius means you shouldn't have bloodlust, then for instance pig shouldn't be able to get it as she designed around stalking too. Not only is she designed around that but she also has a default 4.6m/s move speed and she can also charge so does she really need it? I don't think she does.
The pig, like Myers, also has two options. She can crouch around, or she can chase. Likewise, Myers can sneak around in EW1 and try to outsmart the survivors to get hits, or he can stalk to tier up and then chase. If you manage to get bloodlust while crouching after survivors, I don't know what you did right or what they did wrong, but you earned it.
There is a wrong way to play some killers. Just because something is an option doesn't mean it's going to be an optimal way to play. In the case of Myers, trying to brute force in EW1 is objectively the wrong way to play it. The strength of EW1 is his low terror radius, making it possible to sneak up on survivors and get a surprise hit. He is not meant to chase in this mode. If you do decide to follow through for a second hit, you're supposed to use LOS blockers to get closer and go for another surprise attack when the survivor feels like they've escaped. If you just want to chase, tier up.
There is something quite wrong with what you're saying there, just because some way of playing isn't the optimal way, shouldn't mean you should be forced to play the intended or optimal way to play it, which the decision to exclude bloodlust from EW1 exactly does, it specifically forces the killer to play in a certain way - the intended way. Every killer should have the option to play how they damn well please, whether it be optimal, intended, do an m1 bruteforce playstyle or a completely different way of playing.
You and I are going to have to agree to disagree there. I don't think you should be able to intentionally play something the wrong way and expect good results. I could play the nurse without blinking but that doesn't mean it's going to be good. If you choose not to use your power, you are handicapping yourself.
I ain't going to stop you if that's how you want to play him, but it's like not using pallets or windows as a survivor and expecting everything to come up Milhouse. It's just not gonna' happen.
There is no wrong way to play unless you're cheating, exploiting or abusing unintended game mechanics to get an unfair advantage or impose a disadvantage to your opponent and that way gain an unfair advantage.
It's not like how bloodlust is now would be much of a buff to Myers EW1, but it certainly would make it possible to keep playing him more "sneaky". The "problem" with Myers power is that you can't freely choose when to use it, you can either choose to use it or not, but when you do you have to commit to it, which is why many would remain in EW1 until they need to go higher, where others just stalk up the first chance they get. Which is what I'm talking about, you should be able to play him and any other killer as you like, but with Myers due to the fact that you cannot revert you're LITERALLY forced to play a certain way, which not being capable of benefitting from bloodlust in EW1 contributes to.Well.. Any other 4.2m/s killer can play m1 style and still get bloodlust, and whether it's going to end bad or not is completely irrelevant as every player should be able to play as they want and not be forced to play a certain way, just because some think that it's a wrong way to play. That is EXACTLY what this design decision does, is force players to play a specific way because otherwise it most likely will end badly.
@Peanits said:
In the case of Myers, you are not meant to chase people in EW1, which is why by design he moves slower and has next to no lunge.
You said it yourself, he's already handicapped because he's not meant to chase his victims in EW1 and by design he moves slower and has next to no lunge, but that shouldn't mean he shouldn't be able to chase if it came to it, which is EXACTLY what it does that he can't benefit from bloodlust in EW1 - he can't chase on equal terms as other killers, which is why there is a catch up chase mechanic, because if it's not there you can be endlessly looped. The exactly why the bloodlust mechanic is there, as catch up chase mechanic, to help deal with the looping issue. So by design, the devs are really saying we want Myers to be endlessly loopable when in EW1, but hey if thats a problem you can just stalk up to EW2 and then be a chaser, because otherwise you're not playing him as we want you to.
You don't see a problem with players being forced to play a certain way?
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@Carpemortum said:
Incarnate said:Carpemortum said:
>Meyers is able to benefit from it. If you limit yourself to EW1, you cant get it. That also means you're playing a stalk build. Why else would you not go EW2.
Which is quite ridiculous that you cannot in EW1, as that litterally forces you to go to higher EWs, which is the equivalent of forcing you to play in a certain way. Furthermore, if being designed around stalking and having a low terror radius means you shouldn't have bloodlust, then for instance pig shouldn't be able to get it as she designed around stalking too. Not only is she designed around that but she also has a default 4.6m/s move speed and she can also charge so does she really need it? I don't think she does.
It's not forcing anything.
You either go EW2/3 and stalk/chase.
Or.
You go EW1 stalk surprise and bloodlust is irrelevant...
Yes it does force the player to play in a certain way to be able to get, namely that he/she has to stalk up to EW2. So it does force the player to in certain ways rather than letting the players play as they like, whether that is playing the killers as intended, completely different or just m1 through it all, that should be completely up to the player - not how it's designed nor the devs, but the player.
Bloodlust isn't irrelevant when in EW1, there may be reasons why someone would be holding off with going higher EW. Even in EW1 you will forced to chase if you want to down one. If you could go back to EW1, then it would be a different story, but you cannot.
@Peanits said:
@Incarnate said:
Carpemortum said:>Meyers is able to benefit from it. If you limit yourself to EW1, you cant get it. That also means you're playing a stalk build. Why else would you not go EW2.
Which is quite ridiculous that you cannot in EW1, as that litterally forces you to go to higher EWs, which is the equivalent of forcing you to play in a certain way. Furthermore, if being designed around stalking and having a low terror radius means you shouldn't have bloodlust, then for instance pig shouldn't be able to get it as she designed around stalking too. Not only is she designed around that but she also has a default 4.6m/s move speed and she can also charge so does she really need it? I don't think she does.
The pig, like Myers, also has two options. She can crouch around, or she can chase. Likewise, Myers can sneak around in EW1 and try to outsmart the survivors to get hits, or he can stalk to tier up and then chase. If you manage to get bloodlust while crouching after survivors, I don't know what you did right or what they did wrong, but you earned it.
There is a wrong way to play some killers. Just because something is an option doesn't mean it's going to be an optimal way to play. In the case of Myers, trying to brute force in EW1 is objectively the wrong way to play it. The strength of EW1 is his low terror radius, making it possible to sneak up on survivors and get a surprise hit. He is not meant to chase in this mode. If you do decide to follow through for a second hit, you're supposed to use LOS blockers to get closer and go for another surprise attack when the survivor feels like they've escaped. If you just want to chase, tier up.
There is something quite wrong with what you're saying there, just because some way of playing isn't the optimal way, shouldn't mean you should be forced to play the intended or optimal way to play it, which the decision to exclude bloodlust from EW1 exactly does, it specifically forces the killer to play in a certain way - the intended way. Every killer should have the option to play how they damn well please, whether it be optimal, intended, do an m1 bruteforce playstyle or a completely different way of playing. In much the same way that no one should be telling you how to play the game UNLESS you're asking for advice, how one plays the shouldn't be anyone elses business UNLESS they're cheating, exploiting or abusing mechanics in ways they weren't intended - much like the tapping to avoid skill checks should be considered an exploit because it specifically makes you able to avoid game mechanics that it weren't intended to be avoided, but isn't considered it even though it really should. So playing differently than one is optimal or intended way certainly shouldn't mean that you're excluded from utilizing base catchup mechanics.
In regards to the pig, you say she has two options? She has lot more options and can FREELY choose between them, Myers cannot - which is a very, very big difference. She can choose to SNEAK around or not and even keep switching back and forth, hence why it makes sense she wouldn't be able to benefit from it bloodlust in that stance, because she IS litterally SNEAKING around, where Myers is just walking around by the default stance and CANNOT switch between the stances, he can only go faster (stalk up to higher EWs) but cannot revert back to EW1. So since he's WALKING around in the default moving stance at 4.2m/s, like any other killer at 4.2m/s in default moving stance, it would only be reasonable that he would be able to benefit from bloodlust in EW1. Furthermore the pig can RBT her victims which applies pressure on the victims passively but also makes them much, much more vulnerable and extremely easy to down again, and if they don't manage to get them of in time she gets a kill. Myers don't have this, sure he can become very dangerous and very fast turn it into a slugfest, but he can't kill any one unless he's using a specific addon or a mori offering. So you could even argue that Pig shouldn't have access to bloodlust when she's chasing a victim who's RBT'ed.
There is also something quite important here, when it comes to a chase, the low terror radius won't really help Myers, because victims will irregardless of this be trying to stay aware of where he is during the chase, and it doesn't help him end the chase either, where being at 4.2m/s certainly doesn't help him either. Stalking up won't help him much either as killers with 4.4m/s are still quite loopable. It would make sense that he weren't able to get bloodlust in EW1 IF, and only IF he could revert back to EW1, otherwise he should be able to benefit from bloodlust in EW1. The low terror radius might even affect detrimentally for Myers as being in the terror radius is intended to make the victim players feel pressured and thus be more likely to make mistakes, due to impulse-decisions, so if they're suddenly not in the terror radius during a chase, they won't feel as pressured and thus not be as inclined to make bad impulse-decisions.
So in contrast to the pig, who can FREELY switch between SNEAKING and MOVING NORMALLY and can benefit from bloodlust when she isn't SNEAKING, makes it quite obvious that Myers should be able to actually freely revert to EW1, just as Pig can revert to normal moving stance. I also think that it makes it quite obvious that Myers should be able to freely switch between EW1-2 but has to stalk up to EW3. So if Myers could freely switch between EW1-2 or the very least freely switch back to EW1, then it's acceptable that you can't have bloodlust capability in EW1, otherwise he really should be able to benefit from bloodlust in EW1.
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Carpemortum said:>Meyers is able to benefit from it. If you limit yourself to EW1, you cant get it. That also means you're playing a stalk build. Why else would you not go EW2.
Which is quite ridiculous that you cannot in EW1, as that litterally forces you to go to higher EWs, which is the equivalent of forcing you to play in a certain way. Furthermore, if being designed around stalking and having a low terror radius means you shouldn't have bloodlust, then for instance pig shouldn't be able to get it as she designed around stalking too. Not only is she designed around that but she also has a default 4.6m/s move speed and she can also charge so does she really need it? I don't think she does. -
@Peanits said:
Myers in EW1 is not meant to chase, he is meant to stalk. Even when running a scratched mirror, you're ideally supposed to use LOS blockers and surprise them rather than brute forcing it. Bloodlust previously (specifically with scratched mirrors) would allow you to get a surprise hit, then brute force your way to an easy down.Though that change was made back when bloodlust was 0.2, 0.6, 1.2, rather than the 0.2, 0.4, 0.6 it is now. It probably wouldn't be as big of a deal these days, but the change was put in back when it was.
But also the entire design behind the shape is that he is weak, and he gains strength by stalking survivors. Staying in EW1 is supposed to be slow, but still usable if you sneak up on people. If you just want to brute force it, stalk.
That really shouldn't matter whether he's meant to stalk or chase, every killer will need to chase the victims - in EVERY match. There shouldn't be this sort of exception for a base mechanic, thats an actual catch up mechanic, no matter the design behind the killer. If you say it's because EW3 has a speed of 4.6m/s, then I have to remind you that there are other killers with that speed, as base speed, who happen to benefit from bloodlust no matter the circumstances in regards to their power or kit.
...also how one ideally should play, shouldn't play a part either in the decision that he can't benefit from bloodlust at EW1. Because he's not really that dangerous at EW1, because in EW1 he's only at speed 4.2m/s, and you can counter him creeping up on you by paying attention to your surroundings. At speed 4.2m/s he's exceptionally easy to loop.
I can understand why you'd think bloodlust on EW3 would be too strong, because that's where he's the deadliest, and he's potentially able to benefit from several levels of bloodlust during EW3 - from that standpoint I can understand why you'd want to limit bloodlust on him, but only EW3. EW1-2, he's not that dangerous.
But this doesn't change the fact that every killer is supposed to chase down their victims, where Myers certainly is no exception to this either, even when in EW1, and bloodlust only helps you when you've been in a prolonged chase.
You could also argue that there are plenty of other killers that shouldn't benefit from bloodlust either because they were not designed to really make that much use of it. Just take Huntress, she's was designed to throw hatchts, so she got hatchets, which means she doesn't really need to chase, all she needs is good aim. But we both know that she can't really on the hatchets all the time, even with great aim and skill she eventually will need to chase.
Bottomline is, that Bloodlust is a base chase catch up mechanic, which every killer should be able to benefit from, where if they don't they will be missing out on the thing thats supposed to help balance those chases.
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Yup, not hyped either.... I'm sure you can figure out why, if not, pretty much the same reasons why others aren't.
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@CornChip said:
@Incarnate said:
@CornChip said:
I feel like the forums have started to run out of things to complain about..We have lots to complain about, especially when they keep taking what we say with "a grain of salt", or twist what we say to be something different, or simply just dismisses it.
I don't think they read the forums mate sadly
Thats what they say they do, in case you didn't know, besides - how can they they answer a few few questions on the the Q&A devstreams every now and then if they don't read the forums? They do read the forums, problem is, that they take what we write with "a grain of salt" - thats been said on several devstreams now. It's also been said that they do sometimes use what we suggest, but with their twist on it (because apparently they think they know better than the majority of the community who participate in the PTBs). Other times they're completely dismissing our concerns, feedback and so on, certain devs that is, which happen to be those who have the authority make decisions for the game.
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@ad19970 said:
@Vietfox said:
Cleansing totems is not that hard.That's not quite fair. I mean a 4 man swf of course can communicate about how many totems have been cleansed, but a 4 solo survivor team will always struggle with cleansing all 5 totems, since it pretty much requires everyone to run around the map and find out if all five totems have been cleansed.
I know killer mains like to make you believe NOED is a punsihment for survivors for not cleansing all 5 totems, but that's BS. It's a way for killers to still win and have a comeback even though they failed. It's not fair to say that it's the survivors fault for not cleansing all 5 totems. I hate DS, but I'd argue that NOED is even worse.Thats just one of the reasons why SWF shouldn't be a part of a seperate mode of play, and not part of whats considered normal play, which is basically ranked - thats competitive play. In ranked competitive play there is no room for something creates such a big balance issue as SWF does.
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@Wolf74 said:
Mate said that Shapes Tier 1 is meant to STALK instead of chase.Thats really a bullshit reason not give Myers the possibility to get bloodlust, because getting bloodlust 1 takes the same amount of time as it does any other killer, and every killer wastes an equal amount of time chasing to get bloodlust - which is a significant amount of time, 15 seconds of continuous chasing, where the time waste it matters not if that was at move speed 4.2m/s or higher, it's still 15 seconds it takes to get it.