Should Shape receive a slight rework/tweak?
It's become obvious that Shape/Myers could use a slight rework/tweak of his power, not a big one, but one that can have a tremendous amount of impact. I know that Myers is quite strong because I've played a lot of Myers (mained him even) so I definitely know how to play and not to play him, however there are certain things that doesn't make sense when you look at a killer that is intended to also sneak around and stalk their Prey - The Pig.
The reason why I think it makes sense to slightly rework/tweak Shape's power a bit.
The Pig can FREELY shift between SNEAKING around and MOVING around, Myers on the other hand cannot switch freely between Evil Within (EW) stance levels and is required to spend time stalking up, where at times he'll have to switch to another victim to stalk to fully level or stalk up to a higher level of EW and cannot de-level it once he's attained a higher EW stance level. The Pig per default is a very fast killer, 4.6m/s where Myers is only 4.2m/s and Myers has to go to higher EW levels to get higher movement speed, 4.6m/s which is the highest he can reach but is only temporary - going to higher EW levels also comes at a cost, higher terror radius. Also, he cannot benefit from bloodlust in his lowest EW stance level which also happens to be the slowest movement speedwise, because he's intended to be sneaking around and stalking his victims. Which in my opinion is a bad decision to not let Myers be able to actually be able to benefit from bloodlust in EW1, since he cannot currently revert back to EW1 once he's gone higher, and it's currently only in higher levels of EW he can benefit from bloodlust - the weird thing here is that, Myers isn't actually sneaking around, he's walking around just as any killer with 4.2m/s movespeed. The reasoning for him not being able to benefit from bloodlust in EW1 is because he's intended to use his low terror radius to his advantage, and if you want to chase then you should go to a higher EW stance level. But here is the thing, the low terror radius doesn't help him end the chase and neither does his low movement speed, in which he's very vulnerable to being looped and the player might not want to stalk up for various reasons where one being that you cannot revert back to EW1 once, because once you stalk up to EW2 then you're forced to play in a certain way, which you should no one should be forcing you to, how you decide to play should be completely up to the player. The "problem" with Myers power is that you can't freely choose when to use it, you can either choose to use it or not, but when you do you have to commit to it, which is why many would remain in EW1 until they need to go higher, where others just stalk up the first chance they get. Which is what I'm talking about, you should be able to play him and any other killer as you like, but with Myers due to the fact that you cannot revert you're LITERALLY forced to play a certain way, which not being capable of benefitting from bloodlust in EW1 contributes to.
The Pig has more options than Myers do - She can switch between being "sneaky" (low terror radius - slow movement), she can charge her victims and RBT them after having downed them, which can even outright kill them regardless of health states. RBT'ed victims are much more vulnerable chase targets and are very likely to be tunnelled, whether that is optimal or bad play is irrelevant here. This makes and the above it obvious that Myers could do with a slight rework or tweak to his power.
The core slight rework/tweaks to Shape/Myers.
- Make Myers be able to switch between EW1-2 freely.
- Make Myers be able to benefit from bloodlust in EW1 as well.
I think making him able to more freely switch between EW1-2 would mean that you could switch between a stealthy approach or a direct approach without it forcing you to play a certain play a certain way after having gone to EW2 and EW3. This would mean we'd be seeing Myers really being able to capitalize on this, even when you know it's Myers you're facing.
I think making Myers able to benefit from bloodlust while in EW1 would make it more viable to remain in EW1 and thus emphasize a lot more on the stealth play with him. Because he really does need to be able to benefit from bloodlust in EW1 just as any other 4.2m/s killer would, as the main reason why the bloodlust mechanic is even there is to help deal with endless loops, and Myers should able to chase in EW1 without it only being able to end badly all because he can't benefit from bloodlust in EW1.
What do you think?
Ps. Just a thought, but what IF Myers had the movement speed burst like legion has, he'd be even more scary to face, wouldn't he? 
Comments
You forgot to add trapper to that list
Thats not the point of using her for comparison - the main reason of using her for comparison is to make it so obvious why he actually should have these tweaks.
Yeah I've been there where they co-ordinate to take out all your traps at once.
Just the same as solo players though! Just ask the devs!!
Bloodlust and EW1 does not seem right to me at all. He's a stalker and this early phase is like the beginning of any of his movies. He's slow. The build up is when he eventually reaches EW3 where he can step quickly down a flight of stairs or power walk through a hospital glass door. Myers should never get Legion's movement burst. That would make him into a running joke.
He just needs multistalk back and not have a limit of stalk per person, that's all he needs really.
Just in case you didn't know, the bloodlust is a chase catch-up mechanic, and Myers should not be excluded from this catch-up mechanic, because Myers do happen to have to chases in EW1, and also being forced to stalk up to EW2 completely ruins the stalking stealth playstyle. The main problem is that he can't revert to EW1 to after going into EW2 which means that once you go into EW2 then you cannot be playing him like a sneaking stalker, you have to commit to playing overtly once in EW2 which is ruins the whole intended stealthy stalker play. Hence why I'm suggesting he should be able to revert back to EW1, just like Pig can freely switch between sneaking and just moving.
Even nurse whos also supposef to use her ability has bloodlust.
Its just bullshit that myers doesnt get it even when he has situations in which hes unable to reach ew2.
Heck even with the old bloodlust he was dtill slower than the other killers.
First of all, I'm talking about it from a perspective WITHOUT addons, because thats the only way you can discuss if a powers balance and so on, because addons and other things that affect it is a variable which you cannot balance the base power after. With that said, I'm not saying you can't stalk in EW2, but I'm saying that with the base powers EW2 Myers becomes more a chaser than a stalker and most of his stealth play is gone, and he can't revert back to the stealth play afterwards because he can't revert from EW2 to EW1.
So what I'm saying is that if Myers was able to more freely switch between EW2 and EW1, then it would be better. Where in high ranks that would be a really good thing, because EW1 as it is currently it's basically useless but actually isn't in various situations where if Myers were able to switch back to EW1, then he'd be able to switch between being a stealthy stalker and a chaser. Where I could definitely see how being able switch from EW2 to EW1 really would make a difference.
What seriously makes less sense is that people who like to play him would rather he would remain as is, instead of letting become much more flexible, adaptable and would also add some mindgame to his kit.
The most important aspect of this tweak would namely be his power could freely switch between EW1 and EW2 - basically switching between stealthy stalker and chaser.
Myers EWII:
Terror radius: 16 meters
Speed: 115%
Most other killers:
Terror radius: 32 meters
Speed: 115%
He’s most certainly already stealthier even with the same speed, being able to switch back and fourth would make him too strong tipping his balance to the top of the list of killers. At evil within III he has a normal Terror radius of 32 meters with the exception of increased vaulting speed and able to one shot you. Need I say more?
You cannot play a character suboptimally and expect optimal results. Period.
You cant freely switch between ew2/3, it requires a CERTAIN PLAYSTYLE to use that switching. You shouldnt be able to drop into ew1 whenever. EW1 ks him stalking. People unaware of his presence. Once hes known hes known. If you choose to play pure stall ew1 build. You can.
You're the one trying to force him into a certain playstyle. Switching from ew1/2 would make it the meta, and "only way" to play him efficiently without addons.
Hes fine as is. You can play him optimally. You can play hin for fun. You can play with or without addons.
But if you do not build or play him as intended, within his kit, bloodlust in mind when he was released/tweaked, as optimally as possible. You. Cannot. Expect. Optimal. Results.
You say it's crazy that people who like to play him, are okay how he is, but you feel the need for a change to make them more optimal? That's you wanting them to play a certain way friend...
I didn't really feel like reading all of that, but my opinion is that The Shape is one of the best designed killers and shouldn't have any big changes.
What I'm suggesting aren't big changes, but quite reasonable changes.
TLDR Edition:
The core slight rework/tweaks to Shape/Myers.
But Nurse does have access to bloodlust irregardless of her using her power or not, whether she has addons or not. The main point being she is capable of benefitting from bloodlust whether she uses it or not, whether she uses her power or not, whether she chases or not - she has access to bloodlust whether she's played optimally or not.
I know you can't switch freely between EW2/3 and that isn't what I'm suggesting.
So why do you think he should not be able to switch back to EW1, when EVERY other killer has that type of CONTROL over their power? - like for instance the Pig which happens to be a killer who also is built for stalking and chasing. Are you not getting that with him not being able to revert back to EW1 he is FORCED BY DESIGN into a certain playstyle WITHOUT the ability to change it during the match?!
Pure stall? He doesn't stall the game in EW1. Guess how viable EW1 is in red ranks? It's not very viable, because you can only use it as long as you don't stalk up, which defeats its purpose. It should be one you CAN use when you NEED it, NOT BE FORCED TO BE IN IT OR NOT AT ALL.
Not trying to force any playstyle on anyone who's playing him with this tweak/rework, and it won't force any playstyle on those playing him, on the contrary what it does is GIVE MORE OPTIONS.
He's fine? Going ask again, how viable is EW1 do you think? The answer is, not very viable. Guess why that is?
Because in red ranks players are very aware of the killers whereabouts and have much more skill than most others, which easily counters EW1, which makes EW1 not that viable in red ranks. This isn't because EW1 is bad, no this is because as it currently is you either use it or you don't, which means you stalk up to EW2 or you don't, but if you do you're forced to play Myers as a chaser because you cannot revert to EW1. In other words, because you're forced into an either or type of situation, you cannot really make use of EW1 in red ranks because you cannot switch to it when you actually NEED it.
All of the EW levels have certain playstyles intended for them by design, but what is optimal and intended doesn't really matter, because you can play any killer differently than intended and still succeed, in regards to what is optimal, there are different playstyles and strategies there are more optimal. And this suggestion isn't about what I expect or how I play Myers, but the fact that he lacks more flexibility and control over his power. Especially with Myers his power directly dictates what playstyles you should attempt to use, it's the EW levels that directly dictates this, and Myers don't have much control over it - he can only progress it, where progressing it leads to directly to requiring a different way to play him than opposed to the lower EWs.
No, thats me wanting Myers to have more flexibility and control over his power, what I'm suggesting won't stop people from going into EW2, EW3 or keep playing him as they usually do, but it will give the OPTION to revert back to being stealthy if the situation calls for it.> @Wolf74 said:
At least one other here gets it, any others?
I don't really see a reason to switch down from Evil Within 2. Nor do I see a reason for Myers to have bloodlust at EW1. Evil Within 1 is meant to be the stalking phase of the game. He shouldn't be chasing people to the point that he gains bloodlust at that stage.
About the only thing I actually really would like to see change for Myers is for survivor stalking to decay over time. It really is annoying that his ability has a finite amount of use. Once all the survivors have reached max stalking, he can no longer reach EW3. I don't want this to be abused. Something like once a survivor has reached max stalking after 30 seconds it begins to decay at a rate of 1% every 3 seconds to a maximum of 30% decay (leaving the survivor at 70% progress until stalked again).
The only other thing I would like to see is a couple of changes to his add ons. Namely the add ons that increase movement speed while stalking. They are insanely awful and frankly "fast stalking" shouldn't be supported anyway. I would like to see them changed into lower level versions of the mirrors as that is a fun play style, but is limited to small usage due to the add ons being very rare.
For instance, change Tacky Earrings from "Slightly increases movement speed while stalking" to "Evil Within I reveals Survivors' Auras when stalking within a range of 26 meters. Evil Within cannot progress past TIER I." That is like Scratched Mirror, but lower stalking range and no bloodpoint bonuses.
Except we cannot grab, we cannot hit, we cannot pull off anyone without coming out of stealth.
Myers 1 can do all of that.
We don't reach a limit that makes survivors Exposed so we do not get granted s huge speed increase for a minute.
Our vision is also extremely impaired on many maps during our stealth phase. Reverse Bear Traps are all RNG oriented, the survivor can get lucky and remove it on the first box.
Your rebuttal?
IF Myers was able to more freely switch between EW1 and 2, then he could go stealthy IF the situation called for it, I wouldn't mind him not being able to benefit from bloodlust in EW1. This would make it so you could use EW2 to actually chase victims into a more preferable locations where you could use LOS-blockers more efficiently. Like say you've chased the victim into a building, this could be the infamous shack where the victim will try to loop you, so instead you go on the other side of the building so line of sight is broken and then switch to EW1 and wait a very short amount until you can see victim beginning to break away from the shack and when this happens you'll initiate the chase but cut off the victim from the shack, where you'd then switch to EW2 once you're discovered/chase has been initiated gamemechanically. Being able to switch more freely between EW1 and 2 would also mean that you could become just slightly faster, where if the victim doesn't pay attention, you'd be able to capitalize on it and score a hit, which may just injure but could also down the victim if already injured.
Well, the Pig has ZERO terror radius when crouching and she is hard to see when she's crouched, and she can make that dash attack with a 6.4m/s movespeed, so she can close the gap quite quickly - the last part is most likely why she's made not to be able to pull anyone of the generators when coming out of stealth.
A huge speed increase? Pig has a base speed of 4.6m/s, it's the same speed Myers has in EW2/3, which he can only gain from stalking up and losing his initial low terror radius. EW2 and 3 has the exact same move speed so Myers doesn't gain increased movement speed from going into EW3, as you were claiming he does. What Myers actually get from going into EW3 are only:
The RBTs aren't actually RNG-based, only being able to remove them are. An RBT'ed victim is extremely vulnerable to being tunnelled, because they have to run around to try and get the key and they only have a limited time to do so - granted they could be lucky to get it off in the first try, but then again they could be very unlucky and not get it until the last box, and it's not quite RNG, only which box has the key is the RNG part. But the very fact that they're RBTed means they're much more predictable and thus it will be much easier to actually hunt them, whether that is intended or not. If they don't make it in time then that just an easy kill - consider the amount of time saved in not having to chase that victim any more. Furthermore, if you keep chasing them away from the boxes, then they're not likely to make it. Where exposed only ensures you can down them in one hit, that doesn't necessarily mean anything because the killer still gotta hit and hook the victim and whether that is going to happen or not depends on the situation, like how well they evade Myers and his hits, hooks nearby being saboed, killer being harassed while trying to get to a hook, decisive strike and so on. Not to mention that it actually takes quite a while to build up to EW3 and you might at actually run into the problem that you need to switch victim because the victim have been stalked the maximum amount it can, where it can actually become very difficult to reach. Victims cannot dodge the RBT once it's there, and it's just something you stuff on them once they're downed.
Making it so Myers can freely switch between EW1 and EW2 would make quite a difference, as that would certainly help him switching between being the stealthy stalker and chaser. This would also make EW1 much more viable at red ranks.
The benefits don't outweigh the bad stuff. The musical cues when Michael gains and loses evil within would be utterly obnoxious. The way they work now are perfect since he doesn't gain and lose evil within too often. But the musical cues are important for survivors to adjust their play style. Evil within isn't just a stance he hops between based on the situation. It represents something deeper and more meaningful. It represents progression of power. If you prefer the way that the Pig can switch between stealth and chase then you should play the Pig.
The Lunge holds up.
Just run Monitor and Abuse dude.
8 meters is 8 meters.
I still Myers should be able to switch between EW1 and 2 more freely, for reasons already given, and it would also make EW1 more usable in many situations - it can actually bring a lot more mindgames to the table for Myers.
What did you have in mind? The duration or that it deals double damage?
It was ONLY intended to be between EW1 and EW2, E3 would still require you stalk up to activate it, and it could even be made so if you switched to EW1 from EW2 you'd lose some or all progress towards EW3. Furthermore, you should not be able to switch from EW3 to EW2 or EW1, it would naturally have to wear off.
The intention with making it more freely to switch between EW1 and 2, is primarily to be able to retain the ability to be stealthy when you need to be - in other words so you can play stealthy stalker and chaser when you need to, rather than completely lose the ability to be stealthy once the EW2 has been attained.
@Janick - do you think this would be something you could consider adding for testing in the next PTB?
(But first let the devs fihure out the new engine-settings)
Ignoring my first concern, even before 2.4 myers could use of multiple tweaks.
-bloodlust is a "general mechanic for killers who aren't currently using their power". That there wouldnt be bl gain while stalking is okay, but i think he obviously should have it
- a)more evil / regenerating evil on survivors.
b)negative effects on fully stalked survivors.
-multi stalk, with or without dimishing effect.
There have been lots of threads with reasonable or unreasonable tweak ideas.
Why not just use M&A and a Dead Rabbit?
Because that forces you to use an addon a perk to achieve it and thus it uses an addon and a perk slot, where it should be in the base power instead one having to run an addon and a perk to achieve it. Plus M&A also increases your terror radias while in a chase, which may or may not be beneficial depending on the situation and what the killer player wants to achieve.
Actually THIS are the best ideas to "tweak" Myers.