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Incarnate

Incarnate

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Incarnate
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  • @SasukeKun said:

    Dead By Daylight as a whole would be a whole lot better without these 2 S tier bailouts that everyone refuses to not have in any match. Still Today, cuz that really shows you the GAP in the play base. Every Single Match is a 4 man team running.

    DS<DH<BT<and the third is always either Unbreakable, Iron Will, Urban Evasion, or Fixated, Calm Spirit)

    EDIT: I'm taking DS out of the whole NERF equation because it's mainly Dead Hard that's the problem.

    No other perk set beats it, which is why overall they wouldn't be the only logical perks to take cuz all the others aren't even in the same stratosphere as DH alone. Now could you use other perks and still have escape results? yes but that isn't the trolling killer, t bagging ,circle running, waiting at the exit line.. survivor main at IRI 1.

    In my opinion that's a whole reason around DH needing a nerf, make it useable but not the only strongest bailout perk the game has to offer. It makes chases last way to long for how the killer is supposed to play in a round, 2 gens already pop on ONE hook most of the time. That's bringing Corrupt and others ontop of it.

    Imagine if they made those 2 less powerful and all the other unused garbage perks would feel worth it to take.

    again can't blame them since why wouldn't you take it but like i said, same match every game at high ranks, loop the killer in a circle until the killer runs into either one of our DS's and start the whole system over again when you add in body blocking and DH's as well. They need a change

    Agreed, DS+BT+DH is a problem, especially DH. Personally I think it shouldn't allow both extra mobility and what is basically a free health state that replenishes it self, I think if anything it should be two separate perks. Also, the dash is basically a free guaranteed exit if used at the right place and the right moment. Besides this, invincibility frame is a big LOAD OF BS, because it's also renders powers useless against the DH user while active.

    DS is also a problem if you ask me, especially if it's combined with flashlight, because quite literally, one who have just DS'ed you can basically get a free extra flashlight stun against you, and you can't do anything about it. So yes, DS is definitely a problem as well.

    in DH Combos ruin this game and needs to change. Comment by Incarnate

  • @dugman said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2633757#Comment_2633757

    I've never gotten anything as serious as death threats, I've been insulted though. I've also had survivors say pretty ridiculous things, like:

    • I had a 3 gen one game and patrolled the generators and didn't get distracted by people trying to lure me off into a corner. After the game someone complained I was "camping the gens".
    • Once the gates are open and it's obvious I can't catch the remaining survivors, I don't chase those. If someone's on the hook, I'll guard the hook if I can't otherwise quickly force the others out. I've had a couple survivors get really, really mad when I refuse to chase them at the Exits.
    • I had a survivor a couple weeks ago can me trash after a 4k and that I was "using NOED". I wasn't using NOED, it was Thanatophobia, the icons are similar. (And the gens were never completed so even if I had NOED it wouldn't have mattered.)
    • After a 3k with a hatch escape last week one of the dead survivors said I "should stop playing killer because I'm terrible". (I mean, what does that say for him and his buddies I killed?)
    • I had a survivor complain that I was "camping" when I got a 12 hook 4k with Legion. I was literally sprinting all over the map the entire game, I have no clue what that guy thinks the word "camping" means. 🤷‍♂️

    Fortunately this isn't every match, but there's definitely some moronic sore losers out there.

    P.S. It might sound like I'm trying to imply I get 3-4k all the time. I do get them but I also get 0-1 kills too, mostly when I'm swinging like a blind person. My old person reflexes just aint what they used to be against these whippersnappers and their jukes!

    I literally had a match here the other day where there was one dead, they had finished all gens, I had one on hook just close to the exit and one downed right before it. So obviously the most efficient and tactically beneficial for me, was to guard the hook and the downed the survivor aKA I made camp. The one who were the most sore wasn't even among the two who were disabled, but it was the last standing survivor, who literally could've walked away and escaped. I hadn't tunneled or camped anyone before that point in the match, plus I think it's relevant to mention, that all of them were playing "unfair" abusing every mechanic they could get a way, so I did expect that they were going to be toxic in chat, but it was only that one sore loser who caused a fuss, spouting a lot of crap about me being a terrible trash killer, I could only win by camping and tunneling, I should just uninstall the game, that I'm a loser, and bunch other [BAD WORDS]. Yes, he got reported.

    Specifically with this situation, it's not like they actually couldn't have recovered from it, the downed survivor could've crawled away, forcing me to actually either camp or leave. Sure I could've just gone after the last standing survivor, but he had BT and DH, so really no point in risking they actually recover from it.

    I also think that it to some degree it depends why you play and if you're casual player or a competitive player, because everyone's idea of fun is different, but especially casual vs competitive player is a sure clash.

    in It's kind of interesting and sad at the same time... Comment by Incarnate

  • @Prex91 said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2633633#Comment_2633633

    Let's be honest. For the company the fun of 4 people is more important then the fun of one. 4 survivor will buy skin, and play with other friends showcasing their skin (survivor have no power, skin make differs them), invite them to play and make them want to buy other skins. Devs want to make new survivor experience and bad survivor experience better, making them addicted and have people who buy cosmetics. The rest is secondary. Bugs, cheaters, bad optimization. They have no competitor so no need to rush. Make dlc to not make the game dyng in interest, pay their salata, and having people talk about them and start gaming cause big linceses. They know their game is not competitive or balance or fair. They take Years to fix bad Op unfair stuff. And swf are in ego heaven, the only fun experience.

    I know all of this, and the worst part of it, is that it's actually true. Because if it were the opposite, they could've fixed so many things. Yep they care more about making $$$$ than they actually do about the game and the actual player experience, they just want what gives them the money.

    in Are Hex totems even viable any longer? Comment by Incarnate

  • @dugman said:

    I can only speak for myself, obviously, but unless the survivors are already insulting me when I get to chat I usually say "gg" and something like "close match, I almost got you there" or "Nice, you almost got out there". Worst case if the team was just teabagging and taunting all game I just don't say anything in chat. The only people I insult in chat are ones who are calling me names or whatever first.

    If you figure that if you divided people up into a scale of general rudeness, and they follow a typical bell curve, then about 10% of people are jerks on the low tail end of that curve. And as a killer you're playing against 4 other people at a time, so if you one out of ten of those people is an ######### then it should be surprising that every two or three games you get that type of person harassing you after the match, calling you "trash" or "loser" or whatever if they win (or sometimes if they don't), and "lame" or "cheap" or whatever if they lose. Given how many people you face in the course of 3 matches it's not that surprising you get jerky remarks.

    Anyway, not much to really be done about it unfortunately, other than shrug and move on. At least on the flip side I do also get every few matches into a nice short conversation with one of the survivors who's on the upper end of that curve. 🙂

    Yeah, I do something similar, but often if they're begin telling me how to play, I usually respond with something like "Oh, so I should just have rolled over and given you the win? Because that's basically what you're saying" or "So you think you should tell me how to and not play, guess I should also tell you how not to play and to play!" Often get from some survivors in the group, that "You know, killer is actually right!".

    I literally had one not too long ago who told me how to play against survivors when being a streamer, because as a streamer it's apparently expected when you play as a killer you have to go easy on the survivors, you may not camp, nor tunnel, have to respect the 4%, always give hatch, if any one dc'ed let survivors win. All of these expectations has been there literally since almost like the release of the game, and back then the chat was a lot more toxic than it is now. A now ex-girlfriend of mine who used to play the the game a lot started receiving a lot of death threats in game chat, which is just insane that there are those people who're that bad at being a sore loser. Guess there are some people who really that twisted in the head and shouldn't be playing.

    There definitely is some kind of expectation as to how a killer should be playing, and that expectation is further cultivated when there are actually killers who try to conform to those expectations, doesn't matter whether or not they're a streamer, but definitely doesn't make it any better.

    in It's kind of interesting and sad at the same time... Comment by Incarnate

  • @Bennett_They1Them said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2633628#Comment_2633628

    uh, yeah. that's like complaining about doc or legion.

    That's also kind of an example, "we don't like Killer#1 or Killer#2, "You shouldn't play that killer, you should play XYZ-Killer..".

    I don't think it's a problem that can be solved, because it's human emotion that's at play here, but it would be nice if BHVR would actually try to address the problem by trying to enlighten people.

    in It's kind of interesting and sad at the same time... Comment by Incarnate

  • @Prex91 said:

    Only with thrill and undyng. Boon are Op and needs nerf, people Are searching more for totem now. Hope they nerf boon and pentimento works. I'm starting not playng killer and switch to survivor. They will lose more and more killer. Doubt rushing only new antigenrush perk will help them a lot, cause boon and second chance perk needs a nerf now, or really fast.

    Yes, this exactly where it's headed, less and less people want to actually play killer, because it's getting less and less fun for the killers. But it's no wonder, they keep implementing things that just causes problems for the killers without actually adding good enough counterplay against it. CoH certainly is prove of that, but there are so many survivor perks out there that actually has little to no counterplay against it, Even looking and base mechanics and lack there of you can see how survivor sided the game play meta is. Just to name one at random - the game has no stun protection mechanic, so the killer can literally be stunned over and over.

    in Are Hex totems even viable any longer? Comment by Incarnate

  • @Bennett_They1Them said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/294332/its-kind-of-interesting-and-sad-at-the-same-time

    wait, people expect you to just leave once you hit them?

    I've heard some complain about that before, guess it's that sense of entitlement some survivors have.

    What I wrote in the original post are also just examples, I'm sure there are so many more examples of odd things players complain about the other side does. It's understandable enough that people want to complain after match, but telling how the other should play because they felt they had a bad game because of it, just isn't right.

    in It's kind of interesting and sad at the same time... Comment by Incarnate

  • As much as I would like strong viable counter to Boons, somehow I don't think we're gonna get it, simply because BHVR don't care about it, they're only really catering to casual and competitive survivor tryhards, and generally from the meta they've been creating, it's sad but obvious that these are the ones they're catering to, with very little regard to the killers. I do sincerely hope BHVR begins to fix this survivor sided bullshit and actually makes it reasonable for both sides, but this is how it's been since release so I doubt they begin to change their ways.

    in Can we PLEASE get a strong counter to boon perks?? Comment by Incarnate

  • @jesterkind said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2631842#Comment_2631842

    So! Let's take a look at the intended mechanical function of hex perks, and the intended mechanical function of boon perks, so we can understand why this reasoning is flawed.

    Hex perks: Very powerful, map-wide effects that directly interact with the core objective. Hexes (with a few exceptions, but that's more because hex perks have been around longer and had more experimentation) are for either slowing down generator progress, or helping win chases quicker, which are the killer's core objectives. Hexes don't give you break speed increases, for instance, because that's not a core objective for the killer, it's just a side bonus. To balance this, they spawn randomly on the map and can be disabled at any time by the survivors.

    (As a brief aside, hexes are kind of in a terrible spot right now, which is worth mentioning when it comes to balance discussions. Half of the current problems with boon perks are caused by boons themselves, but the other half are caused by hexes already being weak.)

    Boon perks: By contrast, while the effects are (ostensibly; some hexes are weak as hell and some boons are stronger than others) comparably strong, they work completely differently. They provide non-objective utility buffs in a limited area, to help the survivor evade or heal back up if they're not actively being hit within its radius. The balancing for these is a little more nuanced, at least in theory- survivors have to spend time setting it up, which means they're not doing anything else that might actively progress the game, and the killer can choose to snuff out that boon to make them waste even more time setting it back up again or the killer can use the boon as bait if they're stealth-inclined.

    So with this understanding of what the perks are designed for in mind, what conclusions can we draw? Well, the first is that some boons are way too strong- and by "some", I mean Circle of Healing, it's far too powerful for the mechanic as it's designed. Shadow Step is pretty much ideal; CoH is far too strong, Exponential is almost certainly going to be pretty weak in realistic terms, but Shadow Step gives you a utility buff that requires you to risk the killer finding your totem mid-chase and snuffing it out after you're downed.

    Another thing we can conclude is that your suggestions are wrong simply because they're trying to mash two only conceptually similar perk types into functioning the same way. There's supposed to be a back and forth where the killer leverages pressure gained by downs to go snuff the boon that they were just looped around, and the survivor team has to make the choice between actively progressing the game or going and setting the boon back up, even further complicated by the need to go for saves as well. If your suggestions are implemented, boons would be an incredibly stale and underwhelming mechanic.

    I'll conclude with what I think much better changes to the boon totem mechanic would be: Adding either a cooldown after a totem is snuffed or a bless speed debuff for that specific totem so that the timesink aspect of the mechanic is emphasised even further, making it so that boon totems can't have enough verticality to affect both floors of a multi-story map, having certain hexes like NOED or Plaything snuff a totem to make room if they have to, changing totem spawns so there aren't any weird finnicky totems that the killer has to waste way too much time getting to, and finally... nerfing the hell out of CoH because it's a beast of a perk.

    The idea behind boon totems is extremely good, we should be trying to make it work instead of completely abandoning it.

    Whichever is flawed really depends on the approach and what aspects you choose to include, where it's obvious that yours does not include very important aspects, such as how it actually detrimentally affects the killer's time and game play. Also certain situations you're bringing up, are highly situational.

    Let's also review a couple of things, which should be considered.

    • The implementation of boon totems should give rise to revisiting how hex totems work and how the work in relation to boon totems that also use the totem system, in other words, they should be reworking (adding functionality and features) hex totems. Simply because hex totems was never designed with it mind that survivors should also be using the same totems the hex totems use. IF hex totems are to remain viable, there is definitely a need for hexes being able to be reactivated due to the intensified focus and incentive for survivors to be looking for totems.
    • Boon totems inherently conflicts with the balance and viability of hex totems, because they use the same totem system, hence why there is a need for killer being able to have the choice between cleansing or reactivating a hex totem. This part is especially important for strategies and builds that use hexes, so at least the hex user can decide if they want to sacrifice these totems to more permanently for the match affect the boon totem users. Also, the cleanse action for the killer should be around the same time it takes to break pallets.
    • The incentive to be looking for totems is even higher now with the implementation and focus on bringing more boon totems into the game, which most definitely hurts the viability for hexes being used altogether, and there is nothing you as killer can do about it, and the killer can't even stop survivors in the same they can stop the killer from using the hex.
    • When boon totems are able to re-lit, it only really makes sense for hex totems do be re-lit as well.
    • Hexes are High Risk, High Reward. | Boons are Low Risk, High Reward, but it should be just as risky to bring boon totems into the match as hex totems are. So either Hexes are changed into a Low Risk High Reward situation, or Boons into a High Risk High Reward situation. A way to solve this would be to make killer able to choose between cleansing or reactivating a hex totem.
    • Survivors in a match can be completely SWF, and thus most likely is communicating through VoIP services - meaning they can easily communicate to each where totems have been found - this isn't something new, but it's an aspect that definitely should be considered as well, as it makes it much easier for the survivors to find totems altogether. Even if finding totems takes time and can be tricky, Small Game helps with this.
    • There are 4 survivors in a match, it only requires one to setup a boon totem, in theory it means only 3 can be working on a generator when this happens, but this is really just a minor set back and in most cases there won't even be 3 working on a generator at a time.
    • There is only 1 killer, but 4 survivors, having 1 do boon totems won't set back the survivors that much, where as the killer is having to continuously keep hunting these boon totems down and snuff them out, affects the killer's time a lot more than it does the survivors because the killer is only one and thus can only do one thing at once, of course the individual situations affect different and it may not be that obvious there can be situations where it really does hurt the killer's time.
    • Snuffing out totems takes a few seconds but that action don't mean much when it will up again seconds later, depending on the situation, it can have quite bad consequences for the killer. So definitely blocking it from being used would alleviate some issues, at least temporarily, and just as long as when they're blocked they don't conflict with hex totems activating on such a totem.
    • Boons adding abilities to the survivors is basically giving free perks (much improved versions of these), which the killer has no way of replicating or compensating for or really handling in any meaningful way and the more who're getting these perk abilities and bonuses, the greater the imbalance. Mind you that, it only requires one survivor to run these boon perks, but everyone in gets their benefits while in the area of effect. Look below for more details..

    So perk balance between survivors and killer can be summarized generally like this.

    • The intended balance is for the difference to be 0
    • 1 survivor can bring up to 12 perk levels, and 4 survivors can bring a total of 48 perk levels.
    • 1 killer can bring in a total of 12 perk levels, these should be the equivalent of 48 perk levels due their strength (but really isn't)

    So if a survivor decides to bring two boon totem perks both at tier 3, it's the equivalent of 6 perk level, which is only a loss for the individual survivor when not gaining the effects of those. But the other survivors who're getting these could be up to 3 other survivors which is the equivalent of 3x6 perk levels = 18. Basically this means, the boon totem perk user loses passive bonuses & abilities with the worth of 6 perk levels, but still has access to them locally, but the rest of the survivors gains the benefits as well. This is what I'm talking about that the killer has no way of replicating, compensating or handling in any meaningful for way. These benefits should be the equivalent of what was lost taking into account that boon totem user actually still can gain their benefits, then divided by the max amount of survivors. Hence why I mentioned the parts below here and in the other post.

    These below parts are meant as in a way to better balance boons and hexes:

    • Boons should be a single effect - just like hexes.
    • Boons should not stack - just like hexes.
    • boons should only provide reasonable bonuses, not like the the ones they do now.
    • Boons should not offer both abilities and passive bonuses.
    • Boons should not offer perk benefits that there is a perk for as it would render it unnecessary.
    • Boons should not be able to be placed on a hex, and a hex should be able to be placed on boon - only cleansing is an option if you want to get rid of ether a boon or hex. This way it forces either side to sacrifice a totem to stop the other.

    You may think this view is flawed, but what is flawed, is to bring in something that uses the same totem system the has been a dedicated aspect to help the killer complete it's objective, this boon system only endangers the killer's use of the totem system. Hence why there is a need to at the very least to make them similar in terms of balance. Speaking of balance, mind you that there are 4 survivors but only 1 killer, so it's imperative that whatever boons are given are slight benefits, as these are given to EVERY survivor in the area of effect of a boon totem. This is why Boons should not stack and should not provide both bonuses and abilities, and the reason they should not be giving abilities that basically is a different perk, just makes the use of that perk obsolete to some extent.

    You think the idea behind boon totems is extremely good, but the real issue is the it's endangering something that has been a dedicated aspect to help the killer complete it's objective. So while the idea might be good conceptually, it's inherently flawed and definitely not suited for the game, UNLESS they rework and improve hex mechanics and the game play associated with it, including reworking and rebalancing boon totems in relation to it.

    in Are Hex totems even viable any longer? Comment by Incarnate

  • @jesterkind said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2631639#Comment_2631639

    Boons and hexes aren't the same mechanic and comparing their counters like that is a recipe for just getting mad unnecessarily.

    This mechanic is supposed to be interactive for both sides, and if it worked it'd be an excellent addition. Instead of being weird about accusing the devs of a bias, best to focus on how to fix this mechanic.

    Accusations or not, bias or not, they do keep adding things that just make it much harder for killers vs. survivors - and this is the way this boon system works currently and in relation to totem mechanics, it certainly does make it seem like they are biased. Why is the killer not be able to hard counter boon totems, when survivors are able to hard counter hex totems - they use the same totem system so why have they made it so killer can only soft counter - That's the survivor-sided bias right there. Sorry if this distracts from the discussion about to how to fix this, but it's just so lame that they keep on doing this.

    Anyways...

    Hex & Boon systems are different mechanics, but they use the same underlying system - the totem system, which is why it has such a devastating effect to hex totems builds and strategies. Since they use the same totem system, they're using the same inherent totem mechanics, so even with them being different mechanics on their own, they definitely have some inherent commonalities, like the interest from both survivors and killer to use them, but should both sides really be able to use them them? I think it's important to remember the role that totems have been so far for for the killer - a passive help for killers to complete their objective, because the killer is only one player and is against 4 players, hence the need to be able to have something being done automatically. But now the 4 survivor players can use the very same totems, which only endangers the killers game play, because the killer cannot use the same totems, and now even have to struggle keep them of using it because the killer can only soft counter it. But since the devs believe the survivors should be able to use the totem system, and thereby endangering the intended role hexes are supposed to have for the killer, it's necessary to make the killer able to choose between either cleansing or hexing a totem - which obviously will cause some issues. The need for stacking boon effects comes from the problem with being able to select which boon to bless a totem with but also that they're more who might want to use them , and it would be the same issue for the killer - being able to select which hex activate on the totem would be a problem.

    • Boons should be a single effect - just like hexes.
    • Boons should not stack - just like hexes.
    • boons should only provide reasonable bonuses, not like the the ones they do now.
    • Boons should not offer both abilities and passive bonuses.
    • Boons should not offer perk benefits that there is a perk for as it would render it unnecessary.
    • Boons should not be able to be placed on a hex, and a hex should be able to be placed on boon - only cleansing is an option if you want to get rid of ether a boon or hex. This way it forces either side to sacrifice a totem to stop the other.

    I think it should be considered that any one that has a boon perk or hex perk can create a certain amount of totems in areas suitable for hex (typical spawn location) or anywhere suitable on the map (if the game can support it).

    It should also be consider to rework boon mechanics, so instead of emulating perks and passive bonuses, that they instead could provide something more unique and much more thematically fitting, like for instance provide a new resource like mana which could enable spell perks to be implemented, or that they provide the creator of the boon a benefit while it lasts, such as a passive bonus or an ability. Instead of being something that makes all survivors be able to get it all.

    in Are Hex totems even viable any longer? Comment by Incarnate

  • @sizzlingmario4 said:

    I think really they just need to fix totem spawns/eliminate survivors spawning within x meters of a totem or within LOS of a totem/don't let a totem be in plain sight right next to a generator. (And I would say this rule needs to extend to dulls now too with boons existing.)

    Then you could also consider making lullaby a bit better.

    I don't think this will fix it, first step is to make bringing boon totem perks just as risky as bringing hex totems - meaning making killer able to do both cleansing and hexing totems, that's the only way it can even make it remotely dangerous to bring boon totems. It absolutely has to be just as risky to bring boon totems, problem just is, that the killer has more than enough to deal with than to go hunt for boon totems. Also, with how they're making the meta so survivor-sided, obviously they want the survivors to win and the killer to lose, and it also means that the game's title really has lost all of it's meaning. But BHVR will never start to correct the overly survivor-sided "mistakes" they've made, because it's what keeps all of those casuals and competitive tryhards forking over tons of cash for comestics and DLCs, and if this is not their reason for making the game so heavily survivor-sided, guess it just means they're exceptionionally biased and shouldn't be making a 4v1 game.

    Boons really should not stack, it's should be a single effects for each, just like hexes, and most certainly not give such insanely overpowered (greatly imbalanced) bonuses and abilities that basically means they're getting free extra perks, which the killer have no way of actually replicating or compensating for.

    in Are Hex totems even viable any longer? Comment by Incarnate

  • @jesterkind said:

    The thing is that boon totems didn't actually do that much to harm hexes- they already only lasted a minute and a half at most, and they've been in that spot for a long time.

    Hexes weren't killed by boons; they were already flatlining when the boons walked in. I will say, though, hexes have never been fully required for a viable build, they just have some of the strongest effects- there are perks that fulfil the same roles as any given hex that can't be disabled by the survivor. Except for perks like Blood Favour or Huntress Lullaby, I guess, but those aren't typically ones that people run.

    It would be nice to see hexes get some love, though they'd have to be careful with how- they rightfully don't want hexes to be too oppressive.

    That really does depend on the match though, and what hexes have been brought. And with boon totems now being a thing, it just means whatever chance they had of actually being left untouched during a match, has been diminished to an almost certainty that they will be taken out during the match.

    They don't want hexes to bee too oppressive, but they want the boon totems be exactly that, otherwise they wouldn't have made them the way they have. Plus, what the hell is up with them only providing the killer with an option to soft counter it, while the survivors can outright hard counter any hex totem - It's just more of the same awful survivor sided bullshit, sure it's whats bringing them the most money, but without killers the game is nothing - they should remember what role the killers actually fill for the game - vital role, and it is supposed to be hard playing survivors, but obviously they want survivors to able to bully the killer around and make it a laughing joke!

    in Are Hex totems even viable any longer? Comment by Incarnate

  • @dugman said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2629502#Comment_2629502

    Your question: "I am asking you what drawback(s) you think it currently has that makes it balanced? Not how you think it can be balanced."

    And my answer, again, is: I didn't say I think these individual Boons are balanced. In fact I said it's quite possible Circle of Healing is unbalanced. Nor did I say that I think the "overall way Boons is placed is balanced with the overall way Hexes work". What I said is

    THOSE TWO THINGS DON'T NEED TO BALANCED SO I DON'T CARE IF THEY'RE NOT

    It doesn't matter if Boons being replaceable is inherently better than Hexes being permanently being destroyed because the individual perks can be balanced around that difference. You keep insisting that I need to give you a way to make how Boons are placed balance with how Hexes are placed, and that's fundamentally a wrong assumption. You do NOT need to make the two overall systems balanced, you only need to make the individual perks themselves balanced. You're trying to argue in essence that asymmetrical game mechanics can never be balanced because they work differently and one is going to have some inherent benefit over the other, but that's simply not the case.

    So please, stop telling me I "haven't answered your question". I've answered it four or five times now. You just don't like the answer.

    Alright, so you've answered my questions quite differently and with responses that are very similar to your other posts, not just your reponses to me.

    Yes, those two things actually do need to be balanced, but you keep insisting they don't need to be.

    Yes, it does matter if Boons being replacable is inherently better than Hexes being permanently destroyed, as both systems use the totem system, and in the 4vs1 scheme - the greater scheme of things, this is where it in fact is exceptionally important that both systems are balanced in relation to each other, and how they affect the overall balance of the game - which is part of adjusting the individual parameters. With regards to the dynamic between Boon & Hex totems using the same totem system both sides need to able to counter each other equally, that's how balance works. How it is now, is just a great example of how it's not balanced correctly in relation to each other. Currently the survivors can completely counter-play the killer's perk choices & benefits (and even strategy), alone from being able to cleanse those totems, where as the killer only being able to soft counter them, means that the killer has NO way of actually completely counter-playing it, only temporarily. Not only does being able to cleanse totems represent the equivalent of negating perk benefits but also is a means to hard counter a strategy. You keep insisting it's not necessary, you say I'm making fundamentally wrong assumptions - from my perspective you're making just as fundamentally wrong assumptions. Perhaps, we're just approaching this from different methods and way to solve the same problem, where neither aren't necessarily wrong.

    "You do NOT need to make the two overall systems balanced, you only need to make the individual perks themselves balanced." - Please do elaborate on how you can balance these and know that these are in fact balanced, because from my perspective you can't unless you balance them in relation to something else, and that something is that which they affect and/or oppose or is part of.

    in The problems with Boon Perks Comment by Incarnate

  • @ThatOneDemoPlayer said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2628452#Comment_2628452

    I quite like the idea, I will try to add Shift as a main Ability instead of Morph, I'll see if I like the Token idea for Rage though as I also enjoy my idea of becoming a beast at chasing the whenever you feel like it. Great ideas though

    Becoming a beast at chasing, you say? Isn't that exactly what I've suggested would make it - a beast at chasing?

    I would say so, having an activatable ability that instantly gives you bloodlust tier 1 speed boost, which can be activated at any token level - this essentially makes it a beast at chasing whenever one wants to. And not only does it give a speed boost, but also makes the killer a shredder of pallets and breakable walls who's unaffected by the drawback of destroying these, even the speed of destroying these is greatly enhanced compared to when you normally destroy pallets, because you're literally moving through and whatever speed you're moving at. Also, like I mentioned, this guy isn't one you'd like to stun, this also means stunning through flashlights or DS'ing, or any other type of action that causes a stun... I'd say that what I suggested is probably even a greater beast at chasing because this one simply handles that aspect a lot better.

    ...and Shift not only helps with fast traveling but it also helps in chases, because you could literally use it to intercept one or break from the chase using it, to apply pressure on another survivor or general area.

    I'd say, there should definitely be passive token generation over time, so it can be used even if not taking any stuns. Also, both shift and rage should not be able to be active at the same time, so activating Shift during rage, would stop the rage, but stop consuming more rage charges, until rage is activated again.

    in Killer Concept: The Slasher (F13 Chapter) Comment by Incarnate

  • @dugman said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2627914#Comment_2627914

    Again, here is your question and here is my answer:

    where exactly the boon totems real drawbacks to balance out all those benefits and inherent benefits are? Because with all these current benefits, they are needed to be balanced out with something, sure you may not agree, but that doesn't actually change the fact that with this many benefits, they do need to have actual drawbacks.

    Answer: Whatever inherent benefits exist in the general system of how Boons are placed can be balanced out by adjusting the specific effect parameters of the specific Boon you're trying to balance. The "drawback" you want would be lower effect parameters (e.g. lower Circle of Healing healing speed)

    I already said this of course, and it is the answer to your question, just not apparently the answer you want to hear.

    And the reason I keep repeating myself is because I can only correct your misconceived notion that balance is impossible with Boons being replaceable in so many different ways. You're just mathematically, objectively incorrect, and the argument is quite simple: if you can change a variable to make something too weak on one end, and change that same variable to make that same thing too powerful on the other end, then that variable alone can be used to balance that thing into a reasonable range. It's just an example of the intermediate value theorem.

    And no, I'm not defending the specific effect parameters of Boons as they are one way or another. I have no data to say whether or not Circle of Healing is overperforming, so I'm not going to claim it is or isn't. The only thing I'm saying is that, if it is overpowered, the simplest method to balance it out is adjusting its healing speed. You're reading WAAAAAY too much into thinking that just because I'm disagreeing with you on that point that I'm disagreeing with you on whether or not it needs an adjustment.

    I am asking you what drawback(s) you think it currently has that makes it balanced? Not how you think it can be balanced.

    You believe it's enough to just change the values of the internal effect parameters, whereas I and others do not, that more is required. I do get your logic, but is needed than just change the values of the parameters. Also, when it comes to game balance, it's essential that both sides can counter an effect equally well.

    Actually, you're the one that is mathematically and objectively incorrect, because the balancing of said system isn't just based on it's parameters internally, but also on how it affects and is affected by external parameters and not necessarily the same parameters, which is what I've been saying, just using different language. For instance, I mentioned, that because totems used to be killer-exclusive but now also are used by players, that makes using hex totems even more high risk to use, as now there will way more survivors looking for totems - thats an external parameter that is being affected - this is a parameter you can only affect by making it so people aren't going to be using boon totems. Also, changing a variable/parameter to too low to be viable, basically defeats the purpose of it even being in the game. And the optimal would be in the middle of that range, is basically just another way for you to say, you wan the boon system to stay the same, just with different values. So when you're rooting for the most simple solution, there are so many more aspects to consider than just the internal effect parameter values.

    The only way it can balanced based on your way of thinking is to remove existing or add new parameter/values, which also includes parameters that affect from outside the formula (system). Removing a parameter/value is the equivalent of setting it to zero. Adding a parameter could for instance be adding the option for the killer to cleanse totems (blessed or not), this basically affect the parameters from the outside of the boon system.

    Perhaps I am reading too much into it, but, everything you're saying basically is supporting it should stay the way it is, just with different values, which is very far from the optimal balance. An optimal balance also contains a viable counter, this one does not - a soft counter is not viable nor balanced, especially when considering that the survivors have a hard counter to the hex system that uses the same totem system. The only reasonable and balance solution to this aspect of the boon system and totem system, is to make the killer able to cleanse totems.

    Oh, and by the way, since both the boon system and hex system used the totem system, they're part of the same system, both have parameters which on one end can be too weak on the other too powerful, and in the middle is the optimal value - this is another example of the intermediate value theorem. But what you've basically been saying, is that this aspect shouldn't be changed, which is essentially the equivalent of ignoring this aspect, even though it's part of the parameters.

    in The problems with Boon Perks Comment by Incarnate

  • @ThatOneDemoPlayer said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2628160#Comment_2628160

    So what power would you like for the basic Jason to have? Something similar to Shift?

    I think that would be a good fit.

    The abilties could come into play through addons:

    • Sense - Unlocks his aura reading ability during the activation of Shift, and lingers for 1/2/3 Seconds after Shift ends.
    • Stalk - Reduces his terror radius to 0 during the activation of Shift, and lingers for 3/5/7 seconds after Shift ends.

    Power: Jason's Revenge (aKA Shift):

    When Shift is activated though using power button, Jason de-materializes (becomes invisible) and moves at great speed for the duration, however moving into pallets and walls stops Shift immediately and awards a rage token, doesn't stop addon-effects from working. If Jason isn't moving when Shift ends, it counts as not having moved for the duration.

    Whenever taking a stun, Jason's Revenge receives a rage token, up to a maximum of 5, each token represents 5 seconds.

    Activating Rage can be done by pressing the ability button, which enrages Jason, while enraged Jason receives a temporary bloodlust 1 speed bonus, and can destroy pallets and walls by walking into them without getting stunned. When the effect ends the ability goes on cooldown for 45 seconds, but can still receive rage tokes.

    .... I will add more to this. But it gives you an idea of what I'm think down the lines of.

    This will basically be making him one you don't want to stun, because it only make him more dangerous. Not sure at what speed precisely Shift should be working at, but definitely a very high speed similar to what you'd see in the F13 game.

    I can see how certain perks, like Insideous would be good on him, same with Endurance.

    in Killer Concept: The Slasher (F13 Chapter) Comment by Incarnate

  • @Dehitay said:

    When they buffed Dead Hard to make it to where killers now get punished for swinging during Dead Hard, did they make it to where survivors are now vulnerable to bear traps such? Or was it just a straight up buff with them being able to nullify counterplay while maintaining all the advantages it had before as well?

    It seems they have invicibility-frames for the duration of the dash, which is with regards to everything that can affect them, including powers - which is complete top-level BS, especially if you look at what DH actually only is supposed to do.

    For instance, if as Doctor you try to shock them while dashing, they're unaffected. Same is true with traps and other effects.

    From DH's description: "You can take a beaking. When Injured, tap into your adrenaline bank and dash forward quickly to avoid damage.

    Where does it say you become immune to every effect while dashing, like negating immobilazation, contamination, sickness, intoxication or any effect that would cause a status condition? Where does it say you avoid taking the hit? It only says specifically that you avoid taking taking damage. The DH user should if taking a hit while it's effect, ONLY avoid taking damage, I'd even go as to far an say, the dashing part actually enough to warrant it being a completely seperate perk, if if should even be a part of the game, because it essentially can give you so many mobility options where the killer cannot even stop you, like for instance when the survivor is dashing towards the exit.

    The problem has to do with how it it actually works game mechanically on a more fundamental level - which @Voodoo101 was explaining something about in this thread. Because the problem is, that they cannot make it work so effects will work while restricting hits, at least not as it currently is, which has to do with how it works on a networking level.

    in Question about the Dead Hard buff Comment by Incarnate

  • @ThatOneDemoPlayer said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2628067#Comment_2628067

    Yes, I am using the F13 game as a refrenence for the addons because the way they added the Jason was cool and I thought it could work in dbd aswell. I do agree some of the addons are a bit overboard

    Also seemingly with the powers from the F13 game, like for instance Morph - which basically is a very similar power to hags trap/teleport power. I think those powers might actually be better as addons, rather than powers.

    in Killer Concept: The Slasher (F13 Chapter) Comment by Incarnate

  • @ThatOneDemoPlayer said:

    This is a concept for Jason I started working on today. It's not finalized yet but I do want to know what people think of his Power and the way his Addons work in particular

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/101keWNZF1PgvFdEo-KwbSVFEdDX_eza2BlyBObBGTiw/edit?usp=drivesdk

    Sounds like you're being heavily inspired by the F13 game, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but there could be IP problems with it.

    You have some interesting ideas with the addons, but some seem a bit too powerful and it's also should be considered how it affects the other sides playability.

    in Killer Concept: The Slasher (F13 Chapter) Comment by Incarnate

  • @dugman said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2626663#Comment_2626663

    And again I already answered both of your specific questions:

    • You don’t need to “balance out the benefits” of being able to place Boons multiple times against Hexes being permanently destroyed in the general mechanics of how Boons work, It’s totally unnecessary to do that. All you need to do is turn down the specific effect parameters of the individual boons. So the answer to your first question is “It doesn’t matter, stop focussing on something that isn’t needed to balance the perks”
    • Boons and Hexes being placed differently is fair because, as above, you can balance them out by tuning their specific effects. If the effects are too weak then it doesn’t matter whether or not the killer can’t remove them. If the effects are too strong then it doesn’t matter if the killer can remove them. You can’t just say “unable to remove is bad/good” in a vaccuum, you have to consider the actual individual effects of the perks you’re talking about. So the answer to this question is “it’s fair because the systems don’t need to work the same way for the individual perks to end up being balanced.”

    There is zero reason to have to change the way Boons work or Hexes work in general when you can weaken or strengthen them by tweaking their actual effects. You can’t say these things are “unfair” as systems when the same exact systems can produce Boons that are too weak or Boons that are too strong. The system isn’t unfair, if something is out of balance it’s the effects of the specific Boon perks.

    You answered my questions? Interesting, because I don't see the answers to them specifically, like for instance where is the answer to my question about where exactly the boon totems real drawbacks to balance out all those benefits and inherent benefits are? Because with all these current benefits, they are needed to be balanced out with something, sure you may not agree, but that doesn't actually change the fact that with this many benefits, they do need to have actual drawbacks.

    Also, that you keep repeating the same things, doesn't mean they're/you're right and others are wrong. In fact, there a lot of things where you're blatantly assuming that you can just fix it by tweaking some values, that's not how balancing only works, and it doesn't make other ways of balancing it unnecessary.

    To your part about: "You can’t just say “unable to remove is bad/good” in a vaccuum, you have to consider the actual individual effects of the perks you’re talking about." - I have to tell you that I actually am considering each individual effects and aspect of the perks, and I'm looking also looking at them with regards to the bigger picture - you don't seem to do what you say I should. Sure systems can work differently and still be fair and balanced, I haven't said anything about they couldn't, because fact of the matter, is that I'm pointing out there are some aspects with the boon system which are detrimental to the killer game play, but also what needs to be done to fix it.

    You believe it's completely unnecessary to do balance out the benefits when you can tweak individual parameters, I disagree with you. Some parameters shouldn't even be included in the boon and thus should be removed, and the way the current boon system works is greatly imbalanced, and not just because of the parameters being too strong, but because of how the boon system is currently working and how much they're actually giving when active and the effect it has on the game play of the match.

    You say there is zero reason to change how boons and hexes work in general when you can weaken or strengthen their actual effects, I disagree with you, there are a lot of reasons to that. Simply just tweaking values on either boons or hexes is not enough because of how they affect other parts of game play in detrimental way. How does it make sense that survivors can completely destroy totems and there by hard countering the killers perk, but the killer cannot? Also, since totems used to be killer-exclusive but now also are used by players, that makes using hex totems even more high risk to use, because now there will way more survivors looking for totems. So yes, it's absolutely necessary that the killer can cleanse totems if that is necessary, but most certainly also be able to replacing a hex, but it should be optional for the killer. For a killer that is playing with hex totems it will come to a point where the killer will have to decide if it wants to sacrifice it's totem (hex or dull). You seem to think it's fair and balanced, even with how powerful boon totems are now, that survivors can replace boons and the killer cannot, even that it's fair that the killer cannot hard counter it. It's heavily survivor sided as it is now, it's in no way shape or form where it's actually balanced and fair for both sides, boon totems aren't the only ones being heavily survivor sided, there are so many things in the game right now that is just that, and quite frankly that needs to stop! If anything, It should be balanced so it's fair for both sides, but it's not. You defending the boon system as it is and they should remain how they are but just have parameters tweaked a bit, makes you seem like you support this heavily survivor sided meta, but are you? I play both sides, but even if I was just playing survivor I would still want it to be fair for the killer, and this heavily survivor sided meta is just awful, and the boon system just further aggravates this, and people who support this really need to wake the f..k up and realize that it's not good for the game, and it only really caters to the competitive tryhards.

    in The problems with Boon Perks Comment by Incarnate

  • @Kiikii said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2626415#Comment_2626415

    You don't play high MMR I realize yesterday day I am in high MMR And I have been trying get away from it. ALL SWF use it. I hit a person, hook them snuff, its back up on the otherside of the map or right underneath me. Boom person is fully healed in mere seconds. So this is the meta for actually good players, period end of story.

    Actually, this the meta for competitive tryhards, because actual good players don't need it. It's really bad, it's just more stuff that makes it easier to make the killer look like a joke, and people who're actually defending this gameplay meta should wake the F..K up and realize how bad it actually is.

    in The problems with Boon Perks Comment by Incarnate

  • @RakimSockem said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/292355/the-problems-with-boon-perks

    To your second point, Thrill of the Hunt affects all totems right, including other Hex Totems that already have their own effects

    It doesn't affect any totem, it has a parameter that's based on how many dull or blessed totems there are still up. What OP means with Hex totems only can have one effect applied to it, is each hex totem only has one effect. OP is basically saying that hex totems don't stack their effects onto the same actual totem, which is what boon totems do - stack.

    in The problems with Boon Perks Comment by Incarnate

  • @dugman said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2626299#Comment_2626299

    I did answer your question - I disagree that there is an inherent balance problem with how Boons work versus how Hexes work. And I disagree with you that it's impossible to balance the individual perks around their inherent general mechanics by adjusting their specific effect parameters.

    There is no inherent balance problem with perks that give all the other survivors benefits because you can adjust those benefits under the assumption that everybody gets them. If Circle of Healing only heals 1% of health per second, it could be map wide and a totally permanent perk that isn't even snuffable it would still be terrible perk. Being available to all the survivors doesn't mean it has to be useful, it all depends on how weak or strong the benefit actually is.

    So no, you're making broad assumptions that just because all the survivors gain a benefit from one survivor's perk means that perk is impossible to balance. It's not, make the perk weak enough and it will be too weak even if everybody has it all the time, let alone only when they're in the radius of a specific totem.

    I specifically asked two questions:

    • Where exactly are the boon totems real drawbacks to balance out all those benefits and inherent benefits?
    • So why is it by your logic that it's even remotely fair and reasonable that survivors can destroy dull and hexed totems, even bless a hexed totem, when a killer cannot destroy any of the boon totems?

    Sure you responded to my post, but you did not answer any of these questions.

    Just because you say that there aren't any inherent balance problems, doesn't mean that there aren't, because I've pointed out a lot of these already, like for instance, that the killer cannot actually compensate for the extra benefits that survivors gets, even when being localized.

    No perk should make it possible for survivors to gain extra perk benefits without the survivors actually having spent a perk slot for it, and where receiving minor passive benefits under certain conditions from a perk user, is something else. Currently, the boon totems not only give perk benefits and abilities that supercede the normal ranges for perks that apply passive bonuses to nearby survivors , but they also give improved versions of them. For instance Boon: Shadow Step completely suppresses scratch marks and hides aura - indefinitely while within range of the totem - that's basically a version of deception/distortion on steroids that ignores activation conditions, ignores token use and have unlimited duration. It's the same deal with Boon: Exponential - it gives every survivor within range a Unbreakable on steroids and a partial No Mither. Can you really not see how this actually breaks balance in so many ways? Please do enlighten me on how the killer can compensate or gain similar stacking benefits from perks or items that hasn't been brought into the match by the killer! Even if you were to change the parameters of these boon perks, they will still give benefits that the killer cannot compensate for.

    Killer cannot cleanse boon totems, so there is no hard counter against boon totems, and there should be, just like there is hard counter against hex totems - high risk vs. high reward. So how exactly can the killer perform a hard counter against boon totems when the killer cannot cleanse totems? Snuffing out totems is the equivalent of a soft counter. Also, having to cleanse totems as a killer, means the death of any hex totem perk builds.

    in The problems with Boon Perks Comment by Incarnate

  • @dugman said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2623504#Comment_2623504

    Again, there is nothing inherently wrong with Boons and Hexes having different overall systems for how they work provided the individual Boon effect parameters are balanced around that. If you make Circle of Healing too slow it’s a weak perk, and if you make it too fast it’s a strong perk, so all you actually need to adjust is its healing speed. And with Shadowstep if you make the radius of effect too small it’s weak, too large and it’s too strong.

    So even if hypothetically for the sake of argument the Boon system of placement and replacement is inherently more effective than the Hex system where the totems start in play and can be permanently destroyed, it’s not actually a balance issue because the individual Boons can be tuned using their specific effect and radius parameters. That’s why it doesn’t matter that the two have different systems of placement - you can balance the Boons around that.

    You somehow managed to dodge my questions, please do answer them.

    I didn't say there is anything inherently wrong with boons and hexes having different overall systems, but there certainly are problems with how the boon totem system currently is, especially due to the fact that it affects so many parts of game play for killers in a negative way.

    While agree with the part about being able to balance them through tweaking the effect parameters, I don't agree with that you can balance them completely around that. But let's say you could, then in effect you'd end up with having to dynamically balance the boon totems based around all the effects being outputted at the same time - That's basically what you're saying with the above.

    Having boon totems being able to basically give everyone one or more location based but free perks, it breaks with the fundamental design and balance of the perk system (which by the way is inherently flawed and imbalanced). Because it allows for access to more perk benefits (passive & active abilities) per survivor during a match, more than a survivor actually has perk slots for.

    Look at it this way, each survivor can have up to 4 perks each up to tier level 3, that's 12 levels worth of perks, for a total 48 perk levels. The killer can bring the same amount of perks each up to tier level 3, for a total of 12. That's a difference of 36 perk levels, the higher the gap between survivors and killers total perk levels, the greater the imbalance. Adding more on top of this, IS EXACTLY what the boon totem system does, it only further aggravates this imbalance. Let me ask you this, so when survivors get free localized free perks, when does the killer? Because the killer have no way to compensate for these extra perk benefits, even if they're only localized, they are still MORE THAN what a killer can bring.

    Personally, I think the boon system is overpowered and broken as it currently is, for reasons I've already stated above and in this thread before.

    in The problems with Boon Perks Comment by Incarnate

  • @dugman said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2613108#Comment_2613108

    And killers that have an issue that snuffing out the totem “doesn’t matter” are missing the point that the perks can be balanced just by adjusting the effects. For instance if Circle of Healing only healed 1% health per second it would be worthless regardless of the fact that it can be replaced if it’s snuffed out. So somewhere between the extremes of “healing too quickly” and “healing too slowly” are healing speeds that are reasonably balanced using the current system where boons can be replaced.

    Also, like I said before, Hex effects are inherently more powerful that Boon effects because Hexes start the match in play with no action required and are mapwide regardless of where their totem is. Boons being resettable is their advantage to compensate.

    You're missing some extremely important points, and if we are to compare these aspects, then at the very least compare their equivalent aspects. Also, it's not every hex totem that actually starts in play, in fact there are some perks that actually requires a good bit of effort to set up like Devour Hope, and it can be hard countered just through cleansing it, a lot of potential work that is just wasted, and let me just remind you that just to have it in the match actually required a valuable perk slot.

    You're saying hex totems are inherently more powerful because they're map-wide and requires no action from the killer to setup. I disagree quite a bit with your statement, because it may be that hex totems are map-wide (which isn't entirely true either) and it doesn't require the killer to activate them in the same way the a survivor needs to bless a totem. But even though it's map-wide, it only really affects one aspect, where as a boon totem actually affects more aspects inherently. Take for instance the healing totem, not only does it provide free self-care but also potentially several other perks combined, inherently these affect game play differently, but if we just look at healing portion, it basically gives the equivalent the perk self-care (at increased speed) or the equivalent of a very fast medkit with UNLIMITED uses - which inherently makes resource management for healing items almost completely redundant, and resource management is actually an important aspect, because this also means that the survivors don't need to worry that much about finding or bringing healing items into the match. Inherently this means that the killer actually needs to ensure downing that survivor because switching to a different task just means the survivor will go heal up, which gives the the rest of the survivor team a lot time free from the killer to work on gens or do other things - that in itself immensely powerful. The fact that killer actually has keep on disabling the boon totems, distracts the killer from doing it's actually object, just like kicking gens does the same thing - it uses the killers time and distract the killer from the main objective. That is also very powerful in of itself. There is a good reason why the killer shouldn't have to activate it's hex totems, mainly because a killer already has time against it and would distract it from the main objective of the game if it had to spend a lot of time setting up and reactivating these hex totems.

    When a killer brings in a hex totem - Benefits & Drawbacks:

    Benefits:

    • Action: Automatic
    • Activation: Conditional.
    • Area of effect: Map-wide

    Drawbacks:

    • High risk, High reward.
    • Single non-stacking effect.
    • When it's gone, it's not coming back.
    • Can be located with Small Game.

    When bring survivor's boon totem:

    Benefits:

    • Action: Manual (moderately time consuming - affects only one survivor)
    • Activation: Manual setup.
    • Area of effect: Local
    • Effects: Various stacking bonuses and effects to everyone within it's AOE.
    • Uses: Unlimited
    • Cannot be hard countered, only soft countered = "Snuffed Out".
    • Can block hex totems regardless of the hex totem's activation conditions.

    Comparing the two, I see boon totems has a majority of benefits, and where exactly are the boon totems real drawbacks to balance out all those benefits and inherent benefits? I only see:

    • Manual setup
    • Local area of effect

    So why is it by your logic that it's even remotely fair and reasonable that survivors can destroy dull and hexed totems, even bless a hexed totem, when a killer cannot destroy any of the boon totems?

    in The problems with Boon Perks Comment by Incarnate

  • @MrCalac123 said:

    I'd rather the perk have a fat ass cooldown, like 3+ minutes or something. I don't want totems destroyed because that screws over Hex Plaything, which already got screwed by boons. It's such a shame too, the perk is so fun.

    You think killers want their hex totems destroyed? It screws over their build and strategy when they are. So why is it by your logic that it's even remotely fair and reasonable that survivors can destroy dull and hexed totems, even bless a hexed totem, when a killer cannot destroy any of the boon totems? I'm most curious to hear your response.

    in Should boon totems be breakable? Comment by Incarnate

  • @DragonMasterDarren said:

    Hello everyone, I hope you’re all having a nice day

    i don’t think my general distaste for the current state of DBD is a secret, but in case you somehow don’t know, I am very ######### distasteful of what DBD is like currently

    i know from the title you are probably expecting a generic “I had a bad match, therefore I’m quitting forever, even though I will be playing the game literally the next day” post, but I assure you, it isn’t, to give you a idea of how long I’ve been on break, I recently checked my Steam page and looked at when I last started DBD up, want to know when that was?

    September 18th, nearly 2 months ago, though honestly it genuinely feels like I’ve been gone a lot longer then that, and the reasons I made the decision to leave are not very numerous, but they’re more then enough for me

    1.Burnout: DBD is the first game I played that I put over 1500 hours into, and all things considered I’m impressed I kept playing that long, because the fatigue started setting in around hour 1000, I had done everything I wanted to do with the game at that point, I played Killer, I played Survivor, I saw how high I could push myself up the ranks before my distaste for sweat stopped me, I memed, I tried my hardest, I did all of that.

    But you know what really burnt me out? The Tomes and BHVR’s very warped idea of what a “challenge” is

    I don’t know if the more recent Trickster tome finally ######### fixed this problem, but for some goddamned reason all of the tomes have at least 4 different missions that require a act of divine intervention to complete, I was willing to forgive Tome 1 for some of the utter bullshit it expects from you since that was the first one, you know what I don’t forgive? Not learning that making challenges that are RNG messes/require the opposite side to play along and let you complete them is a stupid ######### idea! And you want to know the worst thing? I actively forced myself to do them out of some bizarre need to see all of the pages stamped with the 100% mark, for some damn reason, and I did completed every time except the Trickster one and the one before that, I actively got on just to do some of these, and it was pretty much never ######### worth it (200K BP for things like Heroic Cause already wouldn’t be worth it, but 50K? Get out of here with that), it made me miserable, I like a challenge when the challenge is fair, I don’t mind it when a challenge is difficult, but I will be very quick to call BS when a challenge is very clearly designed to just waste your time praying that God will give you the perfect storm of circumstances in order to complete it

    2.For some reason all of my mains are getting shafted: Between Demo’s removal, Pinhead’s NFT controversy, Trickster’s gutting that fixed exactly zero problems instead made said problems worse and Deathslinger’s recent nerfs that were just flat out overkill, it legit feels like all of my mains are cursed to some ill-fate, not exactly a great way to keep me invested if all of the things I find fun get made much less fun for what legit feels like no reason

    3.MMR: It is no secret that I ######### hate this system, I don’t even think it’s a secret that most of us here hate MMR, but I feel this question needs to be reiterated.

    BHVR, why, in the name of God, would you add a system that has been proven several times to make a game worse, a system that most of your player base actively told you wouldn’t work, a system that by default requires a game to be balanced and competitively oriented, which DBD isn’t and has never been, a system that you tested on 4 separate occasions and it crashed and ######### burned every single time, to this game? Just, why? What was the point?

    Not only did you add a system that only caters to the people you don’t even design the game around (competitive tryhards) even though most of us flashed a giant neon sign that read “This isn’t going to work, stop trying”, but you added a system that doesn’t even work and only takes in the bare minimum, in what universe did you think a MMR system that only takes in kills and escapes would be a good idea? Camping someone to death with NOED and then failing to kill anyone else, according to the system, is more “skilful” then getting 8 hooks and no kills with no perks because you didn’t kill anyone, conversely, the Claudette that just hid in the corner and did exactly ######### all the entire match and escaped with a key is somehow more skilled then the Jake that did a gen, saved someone 4 times and kept the killer busy for 2 minutes because the Jake ended up dying

    BHVR wasted 2 years of their time developing a half-assed broken mess of a system that doesn’t even do what it’s meant to do correctly, speaking of which…

    4, and likely the thing that is most likely going to land me in some hot water, BHVR itself: I am not making this section to directly attack anyone at or working for BHVR, I am sure many of them are lovely people, and I also know that many of them do not have a say in the direction the game is being taken, but I do think it needs to be said, BHVR are going down a extremely bumpy road in a car currently held together by scotch tape and glue and is likely going to catch fire at any minute, and they’re taking DBD with it.

    You guys struck gold with DBD, none of the people who have bought, played, and enjoyed the game over the last 5, now nearly 6, years the game has been out are going to deny that, which is why the current state of the game really leaves a sour taste in my mouth, I am willing to forgive a lot of mistake the company makes, and BHVR is one of the few large gaming companies I know of that not only does not Crunch it’s employees, but also treats them extremely well, you guys deserve a lot of credit for that given the working conditions at some other corporations.

    But at the same time, BHVR is not a small studio, it is not 5 guys in a shack in the middle of nowhere, it is a large corporation of 850 employees that makes 124 million dollars a year, there is zero excuse for the current state of the game

    Nurse is still a broken mess after her rework

    Things like Spirit and certain perks take forever to get tweaked in any meaningful way

    Patches release containing at least 15 different issues, ranging from minor to rendering the game unplayable

    Bug fix patches at most fix about 10 bugs and take a month and a half to be implemented

    I know many of these issues come from the fact that the game’s code would make the average plate of spaghetti give up, but lack of communication with the player base (I will admit we are kind of responsible for that, but still) constantly ignoring Fog Whisperers and treating them more like glorified PR reps, and the more recent NFT controversy are not related to the code at all

    please, for the love of god BHVR, communicate with us, give us at least something more then a forum post showing what’s getting added and telling us “you’ll get it and you’ll like it”, stop ignoring the people who pore thousands of hours into this game because you think you know better, who cares if some actual child yells at you? The majority of the player base will be a lot more understanding and forgiving of what you are doing with the game if you tell us what you want to add and ask us if we think it will work, there are so many talented and creative minds in the “Creations” section alone, so many discussions amongst the forums, so much passion, and it genuinely sucks to see exactly zero response 99% of the time

    and please, for ######### sake, tell us if you want this game to be a casual party game that’s made intentionally unbalanced, or a competitive game that is balanced, because at the minute it looks like you’re trying to do both and that never goddamn works

    so yeah, these are the reasons why I haven’t touched the game at all, between my mains getting progressively nerfed, the mess that is MMR, burnout and BHVR’s repeated ######### ups, I don’t see myself coming back any time soon, which sucks, because I genuinely like the game, it’s the Smash Bro’s Ultimate of horror icons, no other game out there let’s you play as Freddy Kruger and stab Laurie Strode in the Gideon Meat Plant from Saw

    i really do want to come back, and I will continue to be active on the forums (if this post doesn’t get me banned, which it might), but until some of the issues with the game get fixed and some company priorities get changed, I’m not going to

    have a good evening wherever you are everyone, later

    Quite understandable, and I have been there myself a good amount of times, stopped playing then returned some months later only to realize after a while why I stopped playing then stop playing the game again for a while, and it's for many of the reasons you just stated. BHVR really doesn't deserve the playerbase they have, because they obviously don't care enough about the game and the players to actually listen and fix issues, not even do they take mod abuse seriously or will apologize to the ones who've been subjected to mod abuse. There are just so many things wrong.

    Take care.

    in Why I left (even though I really want to come back) Comment by Incarnate


  • @Acromio said:

    @Adjatha @Incarnate

    Maybe i didn't make my point clear enough.

    The devs know what happens in their game. They know that killers are at an inherent disadvantage. Still, they're not going to make the game fair for killers, because, if they ever did, your average survivor, who can't tell a generator from a pallet (and can't even handle a Legion, let alone killers like Hag or Blight) but sure as ######### drops tons of cash on microtransactions, would ditch the game.

    Sure, there are some of the devs that definitely knows whats going on with the game and understands the game well enough, unfortunately those people who do and who care about it, are in no position to act on it, and those who are in that position most likely don't know enough about the game and/or don't care about it either, as they care more about making money for the studio. However with that being said, there are so many issues with the game, that I think they're not good enough to fix these issues, and even some of these issues have extremely simple solutions, and yet they've still not fixed it and they keep introducing new issues as well.

    So basically what you're in a way saying, is that we who play killers need unite and boycut BHVR/DBD at the same time for a prolonged period of time - to put it simply, we should not be playing killer for a while, because without killers, there is no game.

    in Kicking gen needs 3s but tapping gen 0s Comment by Incarnate


  • @ThePolice said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2620730#Comment_2620730

    Perks shouldn’t be used to fix core game mechanics

    Completely agree with this.


    @Seraphor said:

    If a gen is currently regressing then when a survivor starts repairing it, all they do for the first 2 seconds is pause the regression and if they disconnect within those 2 seconds it carries on regressing. They need to remain there for more than 2 seconds before the regression is permanently halted and repair progress is made. This eliminates gen tapping.

    I think it's a very simple and easy fix and should have done this a long time ago, not hard at all.

    in Kicking gen needs 3s but tapping gen 0s Comment by Incarnate

  • @Irisora said:

    DH is a perk that needs to get changed, it should at least have a condition to be triggered or completely reworked. It gives too much for just pressing E. It was broken before the "fix" so obviously its even more now.

    But everyone knows that, probably the devs too although they barely play their own game.. still even if they don't play they can look at all the data they collect and know that DH its in more than 90% of survivor builds probably.. Enough to be looked at, but.. balance never was Behaviour objective. They only care about money and keeping survivors happy it what gives them the most.

    Exactly, that's my take on it and BHVR as well, though I don't they actually know how to actually properly balance the game even if that was their objective, because many times when they're trying to fix it, sort of seems to be like trial and error. Which just kind of make them seem either as not competent enough or that they don't care enough to actually to make a serious enough effort.

    But it's not just DH that's a problem, even just how some mechanics work creates issues because of the content they combine it with, if they tweaked some of them it would alleviate some of the problems. A good deal of the base game element designs are also inherently flawed

    Take for instance - double stuns, these are possible because there isn't a stun protection mechanic, heck I think even if you time it correctly, the only limit would be flashlight energy. The perk system both due to level caps and perks slots, but also because the game is assymetrical and perk tiers represent how much potential it has to impact the match's outcome, it creates an inherent potential for game imbalance during each match, simply due to difference between the total amount of perks and their total tier levels vs. the opponent's, which only further aggravated by the difference being bigger. The mechanic with how the survivors progress their objective - to escape is mainly interacting with generator, Hex: Ruin makes this difficult to progress or at least time consuming, but they way around it, is to gen-tap which is whitelisted because they didn't know how to fix it, which normally is considered an exploit, the weird thing is, the fix for it extremely simple but that's not what they ended up doing. And gen-tapping also bypasses a killer associated mechanics - the potential for causing killer notification as a result of failing a skill check - but since you can't fail a skill check when you gen-tap, no killer notification will ever be made...and this was just a few of the issues.

    Just to name a few issues here with regards to double stuns.

    DS stun + Flashlight stun = Double Stun = Loss of overview and killer match progression.

    Pallet stun + Flashlight stun = Double Stun = Loss of overview and killer match progression.

    Flashlight stun + Flashlight stun = Double Stun = Loss of overview and killer match progression.

    ..so do I think they should address these issues? I most certainly do, but I don't think they ever will.

    in Is Dead hard a problem? Comment by Incarnate

  • @Metzu said:

    Dead Hard is definitely a ridiculously strong perk now, it was really good before but even more so now. It is definitely frustrating from a killer's POV when your hits get stolen, just super unfun to play against especially when most lobbies have 3-4 Dead Hards because there's no reason not to play it. I'm really afraid they'll also add a "vault validation" to top it off and make killer even more miserable to play than it is ever since the introduction of SBMM, if that's possible.

    That being sad, the biggest problem right now is the insane amount of hackers roaming freely, with "subtle" hackers being the worst and probably the least likely to be punished.

    Sure, dealing with hackers and exploiters have priority, but instead of keep dishing out new content they should've been focusing on actually fixing and rebalancing the game, including fixing glaring game design issues. Perhaps, while they're at it, learn how not to further aggravate an existing problem. Yeah, I don't think that will happen, because since the course of the game's life, this has always been an issue.

    in Is Dead hard a problem? Comment by Incarnate

  • @Carth said:

    It's hands down the best exhaustion perk in the game and fundamentally changes the way killers M1 survivors in chase.

    Because it's broken and greatly imbalanced, on the borderline of being overpowered?

    It's basically an additional health state that replenishes it self, which can also make you cover some extra distance (that sometimes makes the killer miss you).

    in Is Dead hard a problem? Comment by Incarnate

  • @nostrada96ass said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2620807#Comment_2620807

    especially how many times they buffed and nerfed wraith again and its all about bellspint

    they can't even guess which duration of bellprint is right and still adjusting spirit and gunslinger

    from that perspective surprisingly done good with nurse nerf but

    very recent patch was buff of blight so theres no standard

    Yes, exactly, it's they're just trying to fix it through trial and error - which also supports my arguments above.

    Yep, there is no standard, which there would be if they actually were understanding their game well enough.

    But just look at perk system which is an element of the base design of the game, it's inherently flawed.

    Why is it flawed? It's flawed due to several things, but for starters, that perk slots are put behind level caps, and you can only level through getting blood points, which can only really gotten from playing (aside from free ones given at certain times), which means you'll be playing against another player or players, which are likely to have more and better perks than you. Not only that, there are 4 survivors, where each can bring up to 4 at tier level 3 - each, mathematically, if at maximum they're bringing 12 levels worth of perks, where the killer can only bring 12 levels of perks. The perk tiers sort of represent a level of power to affect the match

    So mathematically, the killer can NEVER be at the same total perk level as the survivors, and yet the killer supposed to be superior to the survivors, so really only if the killers power can offset the this tier level gap are they balanced with respects to each other - which I don't they are. But it doesn't stop here, because survivors can also bring items into the match including two add-ons, which also should be considered with tier levels, they're basically getting things that can tilt balance even further in their favor. This is further aggravated if the tier level gap is bigger.

    That break down, I've actually brought to the devs early on in the game's life (not that long after release) and community before, and yet they have not make tweaks to this very system's base design. This is so true with many other game design flaws and balance issues, they still persist to this day but have been there since it's release.

    in Kicking gen needs 3s but tapping gen 0s Comment by Incarnate

  • @nostrada96ass said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2620763#Comment_2620763

    the only problem of new deadhard is when killer scammed, there far longer distance than before

    they didn't fixed dead hard, just buffed when it was balanced

    but still i think sprint burst is better so its bad for you because i don't play killer now

    I don't use DH when playing survivor, which happens some times, but when I do, I often use sprint burst and would take that over DH any day. Both because I know how frustrating and detrimental it can be to the killer when used correctly, but also because I think SB is better because of the distance you can immediately put between you and the killer.

    Yes, it was better balanced before.

    In general, the game is currently too much survivor favored, and they really should tone down all of those things that help survivors, because without the killers, there won't be any matches, and more an more stop playing killers, simply because of issues like this.

    in Is Dead hard a problem? Comment by Incarnate

  • @Acromio said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2620689#Comment_2620689

    The devs know far too well what happens in their game.

    One thing is knowing, another is actually understanding the game well enough and what the problem is, to be able to fix it.

    I've seen so many times proof of that they don't, because if they did, why wouldn't they already have fixed glaring issues rather than just whitelisting issues in their design, which normally would be considered an exploit (like gen-tapping), or attempt to fix it but actually just make it worse (like deep wound mechanic)? In short, they've shown so many times what can be described as this: Lack of proper judgment.

    But let's pretend for now that they actually understand the game, it's problems and how to fix them, and if this is the case, then why don't they actually fix them? Or why do they sometimes actually further aggravate an already existing issue. Why do they implement new content that is broken or overpowered when released, when they should already know better and thus fix it before releasing it? It begs a lot of questions, but there aren't really that many correct answers.

    How I see it, there is only like four to five potential answers, and every one of them could be correct:

    1. Devs are not competent enough - which also ties into knowing and understanding the game well enough.
    2. Devs don't understand their game well enough, or don't listen to those devs that understand it better than those with authority to make or break the game.
    3. Devs don't care enough about the game balance and working mechanics, but cares more about making new content, to make more money for the studio.
    4. Devs don't have their priorities straight.

    It's been this way for years, since release of the game, even during their PTBs it's the same, which by the way seems to be more like a publicity stunt than actually testing and balancing the content.

    But sure, they care about the game, there is a lot of effort there goes into making new content, but if they were as passionate about fixing the game design flaws, fixing game balance issues and so on, then those issues would eventually be fixed.

    in Kicking gen needs 3s but tapping gen 0s Comment by Incarnate

  • @Mandy said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2568580#Comment_2568580

    I don't have a massive issue with Dead Hard tbh. I kind of see it the same way that I see other exhaustion perks, it'll give you that boost but then it's not going to help you for the rest of the chase.

    Dead Hard basically allows you to be greedy, it lets you get another loop around a pallet for example - it's not a mistake when survivors do this, it's intentional, they know they have Dead Hard so they know they can make the loop before dropping that pallet, or make the window.

    I still think Sprint Burst is a stronger exhaustion perk, but I feel that Dead Hard is more frustrating for some players to play against.

    It's absolutely a problem, in several ways actually. @MandyTalk Please do review the 5 points below, I'd like to hear your view on this.

    1. When you as killer actually hit and they should've been downed, you get robbed of the hit and of downing the survivor - they should be downed, not actually get away from an actually hit. I've lost count of how many times I've hit but they don't get downed as a result of using DH. I think it's fair they don't take the hit, IF they actually avoid getting hit. Otherwise, I'd like that killers get a perk that makes can make them immune to stun, if survivors can be immune to hits.
    2. Can be used in situations that glitches the game physics and mechanics, which is very favorable for the survivor and to extreme detriment to the killer, like for instance DH'ing through dropped pallets.
    3. It rewards survivors for playing badly.
    4. It prolongs the chase, in my opinion, unnecessarily.
    5. The more players in the match that use DH, the more it potentially further aggravates the above and the side note below.

    As a side note, which only makes DH even more of a problem, the killer, at this point in the game's life, it depends entirely on survivor mistakes and especially if played competitively rather than casually,. If there is even a slight chance that a survivor can erase a mistake with no consequences, that is powerful. Extraordinarily. Powerful. - Which they can with Dead Hard as it is currently and have been for years!

    in Is Dead hard a problem? Comment by Incarnate

  • @gelukrait said:

    How an unfair mechanic stayed for 5 years but no solution for it? It's pointless for kicking the gen unless you use pop. Especially it's a 1vs4 game, why does the side of 4 ppl have more advantage than the side of 1?

    Why don't devs add 3s de-reggression for survivor as killer's kicking animation? If they don't repair enough 3s, then the gens keep regressing otherwise they do another full 3s repairing.

    And hold on, it's 1vs4, it's should be 12s de-reggression instead of 3s.

    Because the devs, time and time again have proved they don't understand their game properly, and proved they don't understand how properly balance their game as a result. Same with the game's inherent design flaws, which causes other problems as well.

    I agree, it's should take at least the same amount of time to stop a generator for degressing, if not actually more, because the killer is actually losing a lot from having to commit to kicking a gen, like for instance losing bloodlust or losing sight of survivors being chased.

    in Kicking gen needs 3s but tapping gen 0s Comment by Incarnate

  • @ZoneDymo said:

    ermm yeah, that is just a game mechanic, you are in a stun aka they can blind you.

    This is not really different from a survivor slow vaulting and then getting a hit, you are in an animation and during that you have no control, thats just the game.

    I would recommened Franklin's Demise or Lightborn though, they help against this sorta thing

    It's quite different, and they can literally do two flashlight stuns on top of the pallet stun. Why is it different? If someone is doing a vault and they could be a taking a hit, slow or fast doesn't really matter, even being locked in animation doesn't matter either, because if the killer is basically just next to the survivor, it should be a hit either way, but if the killer wasn't just next to the survivor, then the survivor moving during the animation and the current distance to the killer would also play a part here, so the chance of the survivor actually making it through, depends on if the killer can actually hit. Where with the pallet stun and flashlight stun, the first two are literally almost a 100% sure hit, and the killer can't do anything to avoid the second stun. Furthermore, if the survivor actually takes the hit, but isn't downed, the survivor also gets the movement speed bonus.

    They should absolutely not be able to stun you just after recovering from the stun, doesn't matter what kind of stun, they should not be able to do that. Why? Because as the killer, you're already under time constraint and pressure with up to 4 targets to kill, and with stuns not only robbing the killer of vision/overview it also robs the killer of time, especially if the stun is when you're carrying a survivor.

    There absolutely should be a stun protection period after a stun, especially so animation locks can't be abused like they currently are and have been for years.

    in Old thing Comment by Incarnate

  • In my opinion, I think healing totems as they're currently implemented are quite imbalanced, in fact, I'd go as far as to say that they're overpowered. Not only do they provide unlimited heals to everyone within the range with or without a med-kit but also a 95% bonus to healing speed, on top of it all, the totem can be reused over and over. This means that the killer has to spend precious time in snuffing out the totem, which can be reused unlimited. I think snuffing out a totem should disable the totem from interacting with the boon perk series, at least for a while. Another option would be and perhaps in tandem with the first option, to have it have a certain amount of energy, whenever a healing action is done, it consumes this energy. Which eventually leads to it snuffing it self out, if it's powers gets used. Because while the healing totem is up, no one needs to worry about perks or items that pertains to healing, and not only that it means that survivors aren't forced to actually go look for med-kits or bring any for that matter, and what it also does it that it actually allows you to bring other items into the game WITHOUT having to worry about bring healing items or perks into in the game. But it's no surprise that BHVR actually implements an OP perk, it's seen many times, sure they usually nerf it hard after a while, but still. It's quite obvious that it's actually quite OP, and they should've made similar changes like what I suggested above. Also, running the healing totem perk, also renders it almost unnecessary for anyone else to run self-care.

    Personally, I think the boon totems should offer passive upgrades rather than actual abilities or item-like abilities, because they simply offer way too much. Consider what I mentioned above, and that's not the only thing they actually affect while being active in the game. Like, you actually have to commit to downing a survivor, because you don't do it, they will just have healed up when you run into them again. There is one important fact to remember, the killer is already under time pressure, and the healing totems being able to be remade, just adds more time pressure for the killer. Now tie in the fact that the killer has to commit to downing a survivor, which means committing to the chase. This means that since the killer can't be every where at the same time, the other survivors can freely commit to working gens... you see where this is going? Now consider the fact, the survivor could be good at looping and flashlight stunning, and this particular survivor, don't even need to worry about healing, and if the survivor actually takes a hit, there are good chances another survivor will come and try to distract and get the killer to chase it instead - and distracting to get the killer to chase another is completely normal, but difference is here, now everyone can actually take a hit and substitute for the chase, still while others are working gens.

    So yes, I definitely agree with a rework of the healing totem. I would suggest that it only affects healing speed. Also, the game for survivors is also about resource management, which the healing totem also completely negates.

    Another route, would be to make the abilities work for only the perk holder (or the one that actually blessed the totem).

    in Circle of Healing should be reworked entirely... Comment by Incarnate

  • One would've thought that after this many years since it's implementation they would've balanced it, just not the case unfortunately. So, yes, flashlights are broken OP in this game, and they always were, but devs don't have a clue about gamebalance, nor do they seem to actually care. Being able to blind the killer during pickup animation, is BEYOND BROKEN. Sure it makes sense from a logical perspective because they have the flashlight and can use it whenever they want to, but it's horribly broken when it can be used against their opponent that cannot avoid it during the pick up animation - there is no counter. Sure, can try to avoid it and minimize it's effectiveness, but that you can only do when you have control over the killers movement/camera.

    in Is the flashlight broken? Comment by Incarnate

  • The main concern on one side is unfair advantages and on the other side is wait times, both very important aspects.

    In my opinion, SWF should never have been combined with the normal game mode, there is KYF if you want to play with your friends. I've said before SWF should've had it's own game mode, which would've made sense to make as a casual game mode rather than a competitive one with ranks.

    The main problem with SWF is that the normal game mode is balanced around SWF not even being part of the equation. The game was created with uncertainty in mind, that you never really knew what your fellow survivors was up to, unless you could see them. Even voiced commands in the game is out of the question, but 3rd party communication is completely fine, which completely contradicts what they're saying and what they want. Communication breaks the balance in so many ways, and it's an unfair advantage that the killer player cannot do anything against, not even the game compensates for this imbalance.

    Trying to balance the game around SWF being able to get various unfair advantages, such as having communication, will be very problematic, and there will many things to take into account, like the party being partially SWF. It's the kinds of variables that cannot be properly balanced after, no matter how you try to compensate, there will always be scenarios where the balance doesn't fit. As this is, either Survivors or Killer will become too strong. Game balance is extremely important, and shouldn't be compromised.

    There are really only two options here when you boil it down:

    • Either getting rid of completely SWF

    ...OR

    • Make SWF into it's own game mode.

    In either case, people will have to accept that there will be longer wait times, because people will play the game mode that suits them better. But also do keep in mind, there are a lot of players who've decided to not play the game because of the imbalanced state that it is in currently, SWF contributes alot to this.

    I can see why people want to play this game with their friends, but it completely wrecks the game balance, and it's not like it was balanced in the first place. I've personally made a lot of posts to illustrate where some of the imbalances are and how to fix them - still not fixed, not even a single one.

    in Reasons why killers should be able to see if survivors are in groups Comment by Incarnate

  • @Hex_Oblivion said:

    Why would devs nerf their biggest source of income?

    Why would they forget, that without killers, there won't be any trials played - if they don't make it reasonable for people to play killer, guess what happens.

    in Why is there a killer lock but survivors can still swap out whenever they want? Comment by Incarnate

  • @DemonDaddy said:
    The fact that any power/perk/tier/item/addon can be brought in almost randomly creates a balanced match. By not knowing the variables before a match, everyone starts with knowledge equivalent to one anothers. Your loadout is a measure of effort and skill with a limited resource which expands as you invest bp. Its all part of progression & prestige. If you don't spend the time & points to maximize your loadout options, your not playing with a full deck. People had to earn the high tiers and slots, taking out the grind only reduces the game to even fewer elements by issuing impatient players a handout.

    That doesn't make balance in any way, just because you don't know what others have doesn't make it balanced, and starting with the same knowledge equivalent to one another still doesn't make it balanced either.

    The whole part about having to progress to higher tiers and more slots, is EXACTLY one of the reasons why it's imbalanced. You can only get more blood points by playing, so you're forced to play with less than a full deck against others who're very likely to have a full deck, and might even be fully tiered, and this is exactly where it's imbalanced, when there is a difference between opposing players perk amounts and tiers. Again you can only gain blood points by playing so you will be for the most part be playing at a disadvantage in terms of game balance.

    This is isn't a matter of patience or lack thereof, but a matter of actual game imbalance.

    in Perk amounts and tier difference between opposing players is a BALANCE ISSUE! Comment by Incarnate

  • @powerbats said:
    Well they've also acknowledged that they want to make those changes but that's not going to happen quickly though since if everything gets changed at once it'd be too great an upheaval. Think of it not as band aid fixes but as gradual changes to fix things without breaking other things.

    I know, but this devstream was over 1½ year ago, and they haven't done anything remotely to alleviate the issue, instead they've just made it worse by piling more onto it. They could easily have done fix #2, and that wouldn't even need to have been done gradually they could pretty much just make the change and roll it out.

    @powerbats said:
    You also have the code changes due to the ahem spaghetti code which is why they've went to the new Unreal Engine. That allows them to do more coding related stuff and change more stuff at the same time without breaking too many things at once.

    Just because they went from the unreal engine to the newest unreal engine, doesn't mean that the code was bad because of the engine, or they lacked various features to fix these issues - if the code was bad it was because they had made bad code, nothing else. In fact I know enough about code to know, that they could quite easily have fixed this without having to shift a to a newer game engine to get features that would allow them to fix it, because they made it this way, so they could most definitely change it. You see this was more a question of if they wanted to change it, which I think they did not want to, and there could be several reasons. One them could quite easily be because they didn't want to change the game too much as that might actually piss off a lot of the players, even if it was to make it more balanced.

    @powerbats said:
    The issue with perk tiers is if you change them t just 1 tier you take away the power of leveling and advancement. The bloodweb at that point becomes kinda meaningless as a gate because now you've got no way to burn off that excess bp that has any real meaning.

    Maybe so in regards to levelling, however they could just as easily have made different variations of the same perk, WITHOUT making it progressingly more powerful, but instead make perks that were variants of the primary perk that were equally strong and viable in their own right. This would also open up for more diversity in perk builds, strategies and playstyles.

    @powerbats said:
    If you keep tiers but lower the difference between them too much you risk homogenization too much to where it becomes stale. You could probably tweak addons power with certain perks easier probably but then you've got the other issues.The ones player level difference, experience, familiarity with the character they're playing and their perks etc.

    It would still be imbalanced, just less imbalanced, so it wouldn't solve the problem.

    @powerbats said:
    Fix 1 is a great idea you'd still have the issue with tier levels.which you address in fix 2.

    Glad you find it to be a great idea.

    @powerbats said:
    Fix 2 is also good but if you go full tier III to say a level 20 character level I they get the power and benefit of a top of the line perk but without the knowledge. The advantage to the tier levels now is that they get to level up as the player does in game knowledge.

    First of all, the primary difference between perk tiers is that they become progressively better and stronger with each tier, which primarily is reflected in changes in its values - which means there is no real difference in HOW you use the perk, but there is a difference in HOW WELL it performs. Furthermore, you could be getting the next tiers for the same perks as you within a few bloodwebs, where especially on the low levels you could be getting tier 3 relatively quick WITHOUT the knowledge in HOW to use them and how to use them most efficiently. Also it's quite irrelevant when they get it from the bloodweb as it should be their skill and knowledge of the game, that should be dictating how well they perform, not the tiers of the perks they use.
    Furthermore, as I explained above, instead of making the perks progressively stronger (which creates imbalance), they could and should in my opinion be making variants of the primary perks that are equally strong and viable in their own right for already mentioned reasons.

    @powerbats said:
    As you realized fixing the issues with 1 and 2 might either be impossible or just really difficult which leads to a cost benefit analysis. It might end up being that instead of the current system with tweak like you suggest a new and improved system in it's place is better.

    You're assuming something here, because I never said or implied that, I even pointed something out that would imply that I think what I suggested in fix #1 and #2 would be the best fixes overall than the alternative. The reason I gave the alternative was IF they don't want to go with the suggested route of fixing it, which it seems like considering this is something that has been pointed out early on and that they've made statements that indicates they acknowledge this issue, and quite clearly have done nothing to fix it - so I suggested an alternative which is actually much harder , difficult and complicated to do, and will affect queue times detrimentally.

    in Perk amounts and tier difference between opposing players is a BALANCE ISSUE! Comment by Incarnate

  • @Entità said:
    @Incarnate Honestly, I fear that your vision of "balance" implies a flat, uniform, predictable and repetitive game: if you eliminate the rarity even from the items, then there will be only one toolbox, one torch, one medical kit, one map ... And it would be a serious problem to treat Judith's Tombstone and the last of the Shape's add-ons the same way, to give a striking example.

    You're saying that the game would become predictable and repetitive because of those changes I suggested?
    The game is already predictable and repetitive, nothing I've had anything to do with. I'd like to point out that it's certainly possible to create variance WITHOUT tiers, I've said nothing about eliminating rarity, in fact I've said it's still doable even without tiers. I don't see why Judith's Tombstone specifically would be a problem with change, feel free to enlighten me! But even with perks without tiers it's still possible to keep rarity and it's also possible to introduce different variations of the same perk, where the variance is not it it's value, because it should be of equally comparable strength and drawbacks. In regards to addons and equipment, as far as I know, it's not tiered persé but could be considered tiered with different variations. The reason they could be considered tiered with different variations is simply due to the fact each item and addon becomes progressively better at what it does when compared to addons/equipment of lower rarity, which is the equivalent of a tier. However, I'm not advocating specifically for removing the rarity/tiers from addons or equipment, but perks I most certainly am.

    @Entità said:
    I believe that the game should tend to guarantee equal opportunities for entertainment to all players, who, for their part, must be able to adapt their strategies to the resources available to them.

    But that the game does not, because when a player goes into a trial the player doesn't have an equal opportunity UNLESS the opposing players has the same amounts of perks and is of the same tiers respectively.

    @Entità said:
    A perfect balance would require leaving only one survivor, because their different appearance, tones of moans and facial features make two survivors differently visible from the killer: it does not seem a sufficient reason to make a clean sweep of the whole sample.

    I do not agree with this statement, and furthermore there are many good reasons why tiered perks should not exist in the game, some of which I've already pointed out, and specifically because perk amounts and tier differences between the opposing players. You could consider the perk tiers the strength/power of which the can impact the gameplay balance with. So it should be quite obvious why this is a fundamental balance issue.

    @Entità said:
    Moreover, in purely practical terms, why should developers dismantle a large network of mechanics, cosmetics and special nuances that have been painstakingly built and perfected over the years?

    First of all, I disagree a great deal with you in regards to it being perfected, it's quite far from perfect, and certainly not balanced. There are several reasons, but mainly due to the fact that this imbalance is caused by several fundamental design choices; perk amounts and perk tiers. Futhermore, as it was stated on devstream #59 that addons, equipment and perks affect gameplay and performance hugely, they were basically acknowledging it, and in doing so they're also saying that perk amounts and tier differences between opposing players is a balance issue. So by not fixing something they've acknowledge which affects the gameplay balance so hugely, is not only very questionable but also says something else, which I will let you think about.

    in About restoring the 5-level rarity system for perks Comment by Incarnate

  • @Master said:
    Its a design issue.
    I still dont know why BHVR believes that this is sth they wanna achieve

    It's an issue created by bad design. But I guess you could say it's both a design issue and a game balance issue, as they're tied with one another. The weird thing is that it was stated on devstream #59, and in stating it they're acknowledging that it affects this way, and yet they haven't done anything to try and fix this. Bandaid solutions isn't enough, as it is a fundamental issue, so to solve it they have to make fundamental changes that directly affects the issue, changes like those I suggested.

    in Perk amounts and tier difference between opposing players is a BALANCE ISSUE! Comment by Incarnate

  • @Kind_Lemon said:
    Your idea was at one point, based off of my inferences and quotes from the developers, what the game was meant to be. You had Dwights who worked on gens and let others perform better around him while Jakes took care of all the survivors’ safety by sabotaging hooks and making traps ineffective. Then Claudette would come around and heal anyone who got injured. Items were to help each character get done what they were built to get done. 
    Then Meg came along, and she was the one who was good at escaping and running away from the killer. Teachables were harder to get because levelling took longer, so characters stayed mainly with what they were built to do. 

    It didn’t turn out that way exactly as the devs were probably hoping. Self care surprisingly allowed Jakes and Dwights and Megs to not need a Claudette in the team, and the huges nerf to sanotage made Jakes useless. Subsequently, the complaints about levelling made it so that survivors were all just reskins of one another, all with relatively little to do in the way of objectives. I would prefer the devs spend their time finding a better way to reinstitute their original ideas rather than implement something completely different.

    The main problem here is that they've made it possible for the other characters to assume the intended purpose of other character, through teachables, where it really doesn't matter how long it takes to get those teachable, eventually people gets them. With teachables in the game it will be damn difficult to get it back to being anything like what they intended it to be, and they can't just go about and remove teachables from the game, because that would severely piss of the community. One way around this would be to introduce classes, in much the same way as there are perks, but rework the perks to work in conjuction with classes, where I think the best way would be making them have a primary perk requirement, this would make classes much better resemble the theme of the intended characters. Then put a limit on the amount of each specific classes there can be in a trial. Each class would give it's own benefits, very similar to what they intended every character to be about. Something like that could work, so for instance you could have a team consisting of a leader, healer, saboteur and runner.

    To make a few examples, which are just ideas to work with:
    Leader
    Perk Requirement: Leader
    Benefit: Can be activated for a set duration to temporarily increase the values of Leader. Cooldown: X amount of time.
    Drawback: Prohibits others from using the perk leader in the group.

    Runner
    Perk Requirement: Sprint Burst or Balanced Landing
    Benefit: Can be activated to remove X amount of seconds from exhaustion status effect: Cooldown: X amount of time.
    Drawback: Prohibits others from using the same perk used for the requirement.

    Saboteur
    Perk Requirement: Saboteur
    Benefit: Can be activated to greatly increase the rate at which skill checks are triggered when sabotaging: Cooldown: X amount of time.
    Drawback: Prohibits others from using the same perk used for the requirement.

    Healer
    Perk Requirement: Botany Knowledge or self-care.
    Benefit: Can be activated to greatly increase the rate at which skill checks are triggered when healing others: Cooldown: X amount of time.
    Drawback: Prohibits others from using the same perk used for the requirement.

    Likewise for killers, something similar could be made, but obviously should be a bit different as killers already have powers that makes them unique. But adding in that variance certainly wouldn't hurt.

    in A complete overhaul to trials could solve most of the game's problems Comment by Incarnate

  • @Tsulan said:
    I once had the idea, that every survivor should have a unique bonus or power. And that there wouldn't be more than 1 survivor of that kind allowed. 
    But since everyone mains claudette...

    I had a similar idea, and personally I find it bad there can be several of the same victim character in any given trial.

    in A complete overhaul to trials could solve most of the game's problems Comment by Incarnate

  • It would most certainly be interesting, but maybe it would be better to create a new addon than to remove her insta-down addon? However, with that being said, I also think that might also require that the deep wound mechanic is reworked to being generic rather than be tied to the balance of the legion.

    in Suggestion: change Iridescent Head to give deep wound Comment by Incarnate

  • @Entità said:
    Today, Hope seems as powerful as Sprint Burst, and it's false.

    I completely agree, Sprint Burst is far more powerful than Hope, simply because it has an indefinite amounts of uses and can be used already from the beginning of a trial.

    @Entità said:
    About your point, luck is part of the game: if a survivor is lucky and finds the Skeleton Key, they have a meaningful advantage, and not all survivors have it. Do you consider it a balance issue? The same happens with the perks: even suppressing the tiers, if other people finds DS at the third level and you have to wait until the thirty, is that a balance issue?

    That actually is a balance issue, same with the offerings that changes things in the map, and it should be obvious why these things are balance issues. However finding items in a trial in regards to balance, is much more reasonable as that is something which will be highly unlikely and it's something you can't be certain of will be present, as opposed to being able bring it into the trial.

    In fact the RNG component is generally really bad for balance if not used properly, as in the case with many things in DbD. The bloodwebs randomness in regards to perks, is a balance issue, and the perk tiers just further aggravates this, same goes for the perk slots being limited by character level. But whether or not it's balanced or imbalanced in regards to getting a specific perk like DS at early levels as opposed to at later levels, depends a lot on perspective and the game's actual design. Because say it was changed so that you could only obtain it after certain levels, but gets matched against someone who's low level - balance issue already. That sounds familiar, doesn't it? Because as it is, you can be high rank killer but be playing with a low level killer and be matched against high rank and high level victims. So yes there are many balance issues with the game, at fundamental levels. These should be corrected, and a start would be to make the perks uniform in regards to tiers, remove the character level perks slot limits, give killers individual rank. Should this be done before fixing the rarity system? Well, the perks should be changed to have uniform tier level (only one tier) before the rarity system could be properly re-introduced.

    Like I've said before, there should absolutely not be tiers for perks, addons and equipment you could argue to a certain extent that those would be more reasonable to have "tiers", but still at the bottomline, everything that has different values at different tiers/rarity levels, will also affect balance diffently, the better values the addon/item has the more it will impact the intended balance, and likewise with worse values the less of an impact it will have on the intended balance.

    in About restoring the 5-level rarity system for perks Comment by Incarnate
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