Halloulle
Halloulle
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@Blutengel said:
As I have said in the first post, there are clear counterplays to the Twins; if people do not know how to play against them, so be it. And the fact that she is good at slugging does not make her so unique—Nurse has a bigger potential to slug and no one brags about how horrible it is to face her, yet we are nerfing an underused killer. Sure, we can methodically deal with slugging. But in the very end, the Twins should not be nerfed. Nerfing their sole way to win would make them absolutely bad, as the counterplays, when known, already hinder completely their power. You're basically playing only Charlotte the entire game—while Nurse is just going to obliterate anyone in under 40 seconds… you should balance the game around your current killers and not just what feels wrong to players.
Slugging isn't Nurses USP or what she's best at. She's insanely good at slugging, that's true - and some weird people actually find it insanely fun to do that and those matches are just as miserable. - But contrary to Twins, it's not what Nurse is primarily geared towards.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3809011#Comment_3809011
3 times? more like 10 times, deadline increases odds of skill-checks by 10%. if you hit all 10 for example, that is 10% progression. it is high skill type perk. being injured happens all the time. I am not saying that this is good perk but in comparison, the killer perk is near blank perk slot.
Most killer perks have downsides. survivor downsides to perk is infrequent. typically the downsides are only put most powerful perks such as exhaustion perks or anti-tunnel perks, unlimited anti-slug in case of no mither.
Final note: Random perk mode for survivor really is just 0 perks mode for survivor while also facing strong add-ons.
OP post is complaining that survivor are using strong add-on that have higher impact than killer add-on. the mode is survivor sided both in items vs add-on and perks vs perks.
… alright. While it has been pretty evident that you are deadset in your view, even though it doesn't make a lot of sense - but claiming surv add-ons have more impact than killer add-ons - what the actual?
I mean, to each their own and everyone is allowed to have an opinion - and it's probably evident that ours don't align whatsoever.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3808959#Comment_3808959
yes… because deadlock is one of the more viable killer perks. it is like saying, a survivor won't complain when they get lithe.
Excuse me? How is Scene Partner a positive? How is that Alan Wake perk that gives you Doctor-flashbacks a positive? How is OoO not a negative in the vast majority of cases?
scene partner is free information. it comes with downside, yes but it is still information. OoO is also free information, again at cost of downside. Most killer perk have downsides like dark devotion only works on obsession, Lethal pursuer only works for first 8 seconds of the game and than perk kills itself. Deadline gives more frequent skill-checks giving survivor free 1% progression if they hit great skill-checks. All those perks actually do something in gameplay.
the perk that i listed are super irrelevant. 4% fire-up, so when i lose the game, i finally get bamboozle to mindgame windows….but it is end game so exit gates are open. random perk mode for killer really is just 0 perks mode for killer while also facing strong items.
"free information" with a downside… isn't free information. Saying the duration of a perk is a downside is… questionable, in my opinion. Deadline is about as relevant as fire up. First you have to be injured, then you have to be on a gen while injured and then you also have to hit great skillchecks — and for that you first need skill checks to appear. How is 1% progression 0-3 times per gen (provided you're injured and on a gen in the first place…) useful in any way shape or form? … Or more relevant than fire-up?
Final note: Random perk mode for survivor really is just 0 perks mode for survivor while also facing strong add-ons.
The first hald is literally the point of the game mode; no one can expect strong - or even just useful - stuff. That's the fun of it. Which is precisely why I think the same should be true for items and add-ons. -
Personally, I think there's a core aspect of the Twins mechanic that is, no matter how you look at it, making the game experience miserable. Namely, how insanely easy it is to make a comeback at virtually any point during the match via slugging - the sheer amount of time it takes to continuously reset makes this a win for twins by attrition, even if the survs know how to generally go against her. We had several in Chaos Shuffle yesterday - and at least the first two we tried. Without specific builds to deal with them, it just ended with all of us bleeding out at one gen and exit gates powered respectively, just because you have to continuously reset and that eats away at the bleedout.[edit-add: one person on the ground, one person keeping victor/charlotte busy, one person trying to get the pick-up leaves one person to go reset the person who got victor and do gens - and that's not a speed dbd is meant for]
At least in pubs where survs don't know which killer and map they get and generally don't have a comp-sweat-mindset, treating every match like a scrim, Twins has not just the potential but the incentive to be about as unhealthy as it can get. If the USP of something is unhealthy and detrimental to the overall experience… it maybe shouldn't be a USP.
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@Laluzi said:
Well, that's miserable. Good thing Chaos Shuffle is here to save the day.
hate to break it to you… but there were way too many matches yesterday where we got Knockout; at least every other match to the point where the first down letting out an exasperated "Again effin Knockout??!!" wasn't even unusual anymore. Seriously, Knockout seems way overrepresented in Chaos Shuffle (at least for me, yesterday). Then again. We also got three Twins in a row. (And yes, they somehow all had knock out)
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@Devil_hit11 said:
that is because killers add-on constantly received nerfs like Pinky finger, Entire blight add-on list, Spirit add-on list, Nurses add-on list, etc.
In fact, i can't even remember last time killer have received a decent high impact add-on on a killer. Like i can't remember last time killer got a add-on that was "Pinky finger" powerful. I am scanning through my head for last like 10 killer and i can't think of a single very powerful add-on.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3808789#Comment_3808789
No mither is 1 perk out of 150+ perks. There is few things on survivor end that does not synergize because most of survivor perks are all positives. it is just matter of huge positives or small positives. How big the reward is in their perks. Killer on other hand has A LOT anti-perk synergy because a lot of the perk are based off another perk being used alongside it. Killer perk really don't work by themselves. that is why i said that chaos shuffle is killer with no perks because realistically, the perk don't do anything or have anti-synergy or are plain underpowered.
for example, i had monitor&abuse, distressing, fire-up and Hex:Haunted grounds. I don't need explain why this is useless. Monitor is mediocre perk on regular killers but with distressing, it is counter-productive. Fire-up does something but is underpowered beyond belief and hex:haunted grounds needs other hex synergy.
so you have
→anti-synergy
→perk does something but is useless/underpowered
→perk that needs synergy.
dbd killer perks 2024, blank perk slots.
Most of survivor perks are all positives? - Excuse me? How is Scene Partner a positive? How is that Alan Wake perk that gives you Doctor-flashbacks a positive? How is OoO not a negative in the vast majority of cases?
It's literally the same for killer and survivor: usually two or more perks have to be used alongside each other to actually make something work. - Yes, there are a handful that work by themselves - but that's just as true for killer. No killer will complain about getting Deadlock or another slowdown/stalling perk. No killer will complain about Lethal or other easy-to-access aura read. - Just like no player will complain about getting heal speed in some form or gen speed in some form.
Actually, the monitor + distressing combo sounds like a fun shits-n-giggles thing - especially in chase. Sure, outside chase you don't have much of a change to your terror radius - but in chase you gonna throw survs so much with TR being way louder than it should be. Useful? If they're not jumpy probably limited use. - Funny? Heck yea. —— And that's what Chaos Shuffle is about? Shits n giggles, no? -
@Grigerbest said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3808786#Comment_3808786
I'll try to put my message in a few words: If you play as survivor and you're not being a team-player (not healing, not unhooking, not repairing gens, not taking hooks or hits, etc) — you will be considered BY YOUR TEAM as a troll and be reported rightfully so.
There's a reason of why it's called 4v1 - A team vs 1.
Well you are free to have your own opinion tho…
Why are you saying I'm being a "pinata"? What is pinata even?
A pinata (though it has that ~ above the n) is a container (nowadays often in the shape of an alpaca) filled with candy. It gets hung somewhere and then people smack it with a stick until it breaks and the candy falls out.
On the "by your team" read: "by the other players in the match" — which is, uhm - I mean, yea, people not playing in a way that's fun for others, too, makes these others dislike them? That's how it generally works. But what is that phrase again that many killer players (no idea if you did at some point - just speaking generally) just love to throw around: "I'm not responsible for your fun?"
Look, I'm not a fan of the abundance of DCing either - but I also don't think it's for petty stupid reasons nearly as often as people make it out to be. There's a reason people do this - and pretty often, when they do and my match gets screwed I go "well… sucks - but I can see why…" - I just wished there was more looking into the actual causes why people do it instead of "PuNisH tHem!" on the one hand and "you Qed, so suck it up" on the other. Players can't really do this, devs have to do that bit.Either way, it's why I think I'll not go back to palying SoloQ altogether after Chaos Shuffle (been playing a lot of swf for that one); with a 4man shits-n-giggles-swf it's at least a collective decision and everyone can move on sooner rather than later and, on the whole, a lot less time is wasted.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
I think this is a problem where the solution creates more of a problem than the actual issue itself.
Like yeah, it might be cool to have it be completely random, but when some addons have anti-synergy or are actively detrimental, then you'd run into some potentially really annoying scenarios.
I think having some element of choice is alright, the mode as-is strikes a very fun balance between randomness and choice.
that's part of the point of Chaos Shuffle. - Heck, I got No Mither with heal-yourself-perks. Inner Strength and a Boon. - There are so many perks that have anti-synergy it honestly wouldn't even make a difference if you get a random item with random add-ons and a killer gets random add-ons as well.
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@Grigerbest said:
I don't know what is going on today, but today I wanted to do killer challenges and have some fun chases…
But as soon as I load up - there are 1-2 survivor players instantly leaving the match, it happening so often today, I know the reason why are they leaving, and I felt like… Let's have a "final" conversation on that part…
I'm not going to create anymore similar threads about it personally, and this is my message to this topic:
Dear survivor players - if you q-ed up to a match - be ready to face ANY killer from the whole cast of characters. Do not expect to face only killers that YOU like.
Leaving from a match as soon as you heard a hatchet, or saw a xeno's stations or etc - Is just bad, spineless, low and embarrassing towards your fellow teammates.
If you play as a survivor - first and foremost - you are a team player. Put your ego and preferences aside and think about other 3 or 2 players in your team and how your bad action is going to affect other players experience. If you don't care about other players in your team - don't play as a survivor, it's not for you.
Have some moral principles and basic respect to other players, not only other survivors, but also the killer. I'm playing both sides, I also have killers that I hate to face, but you will never find me DC as soon as I saw them, nor you'll find me DC if the match is going wrong. I have respect to other players and I want everyone in my team have a good time and I want to be useful to my team - this is why I play survivors regularly.
The mentality like this (DC first seconds of the match) - hurting the game. Hurting the experience, and creating a negative impression in new players about the game.
Pay some respect to other people that you play with. If you can't, don't want to, or don't care - don't play in a team, play as a killer alone.
Much love to all of you guys, sorry if I was a bit harsh, and have a beautiful day\evening. ❤❤❤
As a survivor you're not a team player first. It's entirely up to you. Your objective in the game is to escape one way or the other. - Your objective as a human being is to find some kind of enjoyment in playing. As survivor you sadly lack the agency to draw red lines. You can only do that after the match has started. Killers can at least lobby dodge (so I do expect you to never lobby dodge and to never change your build or in-match behaviour based on the survs you see in lobby if you Q up as killer).
If you find you get disconnected a lot more when you're playing certain killers or certain builds, maybe another question could also come to mind: if a killer or build seems to be so universally disliked, then maybe it'd be a sign of basic respect towards the playerbase to, you know, just not play them. Not everything that's in the game is a good idea; maybe not everything that mechanically is possible in the game should be done.
Side note: as per the dev's statement you are, in fact, not first and foremost a team player when playing in the survivor role.
My bottom line is: no player - irl or in a game - signs up to be a pinata. I occasionally play tennis and if, for whatever reason, I were to find myself on the other side of the net of a wimbledon player who decides to not hold back on their serves and I got one right in my face; I'd walk away from that court right then and there - and I seriously doubt that anyone would fault me for that. I didn't get to choose in advance - and I can't tell the other player to play at my level - but I don't have to take what they throw at me either. -
That is… a fascinating take. - Please do elaborate how exactly you determined the cause and effect relationship? Pray tell, how does Chaos Shuffle prove what you claim?
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@SimpleSage said:
There is, on PC when you load into a match press escape and a screen pops up that tells you what your perks are.
If your killer happens to be lucky and get Lethal - or just spawn into the tile next to you / with los that means you gonna be two-tap though.
Personally, I'd prefer if the match start had a five-second-delay where you can hover over the icons to at least see the names and catch some of the numbers/effects in colour to at least have a rough idea.
Part of the beauty of Chaos Shuffle is though that you get to see perks you normally wouldn't (and then learn about ther effects, icons and names)
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I'd be up for the following: Whenever a pallet is dropped, its aura lights up for 0.5 seconds for all survs. Basekit.
Windows gets some kind of nerf; idk, maybe a cooldown, maybe less range, maybe an activation condition, idk.
Because the thing with Windows is: if you don't have the comms you can throw the game without knowing and without any way to stop it from happening. You just need to walk into a deadzone when there's a killer. That's literally all it takes to absolutely and completely turn the tables. And there is no way for a surv to know that from "traversing and observing" because you don't tail the chase all match or have any other way of knowing where chase is/has been from a distance.
Windows can also be crutch — but the reason it should absolutely not be nerfed with how things are is that it is obligatory to have. Kinda similar to BT. It wasn't present in virtually all matches at least once because it was op, but it was necessary to make the game playable. Certain aspects of WoO are the same. -
@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3805564#Comment_3805564
Indeed we have different views of what toxic means. Which was my initial point that the term "toxic" has lost all meaning. Toxic players has always been known as people who chat abuse and have a negative attitude before, during or after a game, play in a way to intentionally grief, abuse and make players experience miserable.... It's exits in all games not just dbd. This term "toxic" has now evolved into meaning a player that plays in a style that the opposition doesn't like.
There is a big difference between someone using a a tactic to win than someone using a tactic to be malicious. Big difference between slugging, tunneling and camping Vs a killer body blocking a survivor to stop them from getting out of a corner. I have a clear way to define what toxic behaviour is (as it's usually seen in games) but I am curious how you would define what is toxic and what is just something that someone doesn't like.
If proxi camping is toxic behaviour then why are things like flashlight and flash bangs not? Both are equally not enjoyable by opposing sides. And what is a killer supposed to do to not be toxic? Bare in mind the list of toxic plays is long....slugging, tunneling, camping, even use of certain perks like noed or killers with certain builds like double iri Myers is considered toxic, there many more that apparently makes a killer toxic.
"different views of what toxic means" isn't exactly the same as "the word toxic has lost all meaning".
Plus, to me "intentionally make players experience miserable" and "[intentionally] playing in a style that the opposition doesn't like" isn't exactly contradictory? You have a miserable experience when something happens that you don't like. - It's just that not everything you don't like also makes you miserable - you're absolutely right there. But I do think once you know that a tactic/strategy is commonly perceived as being disliked to the point it makes a gaming experience miserable for the receiving party and you still employ it, it at least qualifies as approving the miserable game experience as a negative consequence of a chosen strategy/tactic. Now, this isn't law and all but the general idea of "intent" in criminal law, where you usually don't need malicious intent and approving the negative consequence of an action is enough, is a good one. Otherwise the general cop-out could always be "but I didn't intend to".
And the "once you know"-part is also how most new players get off the hook for commiting these kinda things: they simple don't know yet.
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@Royval said:
Wesker honestly.
I was thinking back and the one that came to mind was Wesker. Sure, it was annoying af that for months on end there was only Wesker - but even then it was the over-exposure that was annoying, not Weskitty.
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who in their right mind plays a game for 1k hours in order to actually be able to play the game? (between unlocking characters and perks - but also between learning how to even play; from countering specific killers and builds to learning the different maps etc. it takes way too long.)
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Tbh, if a killer wins solely because they are back at hook on the count of three and get all noddy and humpy or they decide to tunnel out one asap with a heap of slowdown to make it 3v1 at 4 gens - and then decide to draw their win out to, I guess, really savour their power trip - or have such bad ping they hit you from so far away it's almost funny again I ain't amused. I'm not a pinata or the mole in a game of whack-a-mole. Usually I move on sooner rather than later in those situations so there's usually no egc for me… but if I'm somehow still around by then I usually opt for a "bro thinks he's playing a tourney" or "Doggy didn't realise there's no leash" for the first two and "my condolences if your connection really is that bad - but if that's vpn or dl in the background, shame on you". — Salty? I don't know, if you like to call it that by all means. For the most part it just annoys the heck out of me and I feel better giving the offender a piece of my mind.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800538#Comment_3800538
Keep in mind, that's not JUST people checking corners. You're also looking at people who play ranged killers that have to go fetch you and might reload before doing so, or... while they are incredibly rare... twins players. Get a down with Victor and your gonna be walking to go fetch.
When taking just the attack cooldown+ maybe a vault to the other side and multiply that by 3, I can already see THAT being 15 seconds, lol.
I don't have an issue with the 15 seconds. - Like I said: I can see it taking up to that long and still being within the norm - but we're also looking at the average. If a killer just downs a surv and can insta pick that's three seconds, five tops. Killers can insta pick a lot. What does that mean for the pick ups that take longer than five seconds? That's what I mean with the average distorts the image and why the number seems a bit high for claiming a non-issue; I'd expect that the times where a killer can and does insta pick drastically lowers the number.
And as I say: It's more the 35secs I really take an issue with. I mean - if it actually takes killers that long to pick…. I can see how they're struggling even with a ton of slowdown. If you occasionally take that long; sure. But consistently? If you need so long that you usually (that's median not averge though) need 15+ seconds to pick a surv up every time one is downed…that's something the killer player should be looking at.
But let me repeat: The more I think about it the more I think that statistic is essentially meaningless without proper context/being able to check the data yourself. -
@GroßusSchmiedus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800014#Comment_3800014
35 seconds combined THROUGHOUT an entire match, its really not that much, it could less than 20 seconds per down of checking/doing other important things.
17+ seconds per down for checking on average? Nah. - I mean, I don't know how your matches go but I don't see that level of checking in even a fraction of matches.
What I do see is that the ~15 seconds can happen if you kick a gen, check around the pallet, have to walk around the tile/vault cause the surv is on the other side of sth etc pp. That's a lot of times this happens but as I said that's alright. And then I see slugging for 4k or slugging the entire team for whatever reason. - But with the numbers given there's no way to tell how often or not often this happens, rendering that tweet pretty meaningless.
As someone else mentioned; it's interesting that they chose 35 seconds as a cut-off point. That's a minimum of 35 seconds though and call me cynical but it makes me suspect it was picked to lump the long slugging in with a duration that looks somewhat acceptable.
But as always with stats; they don't actually mean a lot without proper context. And we don't have proper context here. My first impression was just that those percentages of averages (keep in mind that standard averages heavily distort the picture once there are some extremes in play) look awfully high for the argument "slugging doesn't happen a lot". Really it's probably the "on average" that bothers me the most. They could have gone for the median, or better yet a histogram, for the duration survs spend in the dying state, starting at 30 seconds. - Up to 30 seconds is a reasonable amount of time if someone is downed three times. 10 seconds just for picking and an additional 20 seconds to check or kick a gen or whatever. I usually pick immediately so I think 30 seconds seems awfully long already - but to account for the three downs you can get max and those paranoid folks who check a lot, why not. I can see that being within an acceptable range.
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Averages are a funny thing. Though, even with how averages work "only" 43% longer than 15 seconds… is still quite a lot but could be justified by killers being paranoid and checking the area every single time before they pick. — but almost a quarter being slugged for 35+ seconds? That actually is a lot. It still is almost one person every match that is left there for a way prolonged time.
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if it covered more than one tile, sure. But it doesn't. @LadyOwO (edit since smh the quoted post disappeared)
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799048#Comment_3799048
Stealth was fine in 2v8 because survivors had base kit notification of aura reveals.
If you know youre revealed, you're not going to try to hide which balanced it in 2v8. In normal 1v4 you just don't know
Tbh, I was pretty convinced the aura in 2v8 was a hidden test run for the Distortion change — So I am kinda shocked they didn't at least keep you knowing your aura is revealed. With that… the focus of Distortion would be more of a "counter info" rather than a "counter aura reading" perk; you got the information, now act accordingly. And getting your aura hidden occasionally is a bonus on top. …. But alas…
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I do agree - but I also think there is no chance of anything being done about it, simply because it's not feasible. The difference between a killer struggling to get the pick up prompt and doing this purposefully with malicious intent is always a judgement call; needs a human to review and eveluate on a case by case basis.
The only way I see this getting addressed in an actually actionable way is if killers physically couldn't walk over a surv like that. Which would create a whole host of other issues when it comes to picking a survivor, especially when other survivors try to bodyblock, pick up of save one way or the other.
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I fail to see how the event description means this is disadvantaging killers. - You do realise that survs neither spawn on gens nor will they be able to see where gens are, which have progress or which have been completed from a distance? That alone justified way faster repair speed. You simply spend a lot more time in this mode simply running across the map with atrocious pathing cause you can't path better cause you can't see anything and have to walk right up to anything.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I would just like to say that I downloaded this game 3 weeks ago and in all those 3 weeks I’ve only escaped 2 times on survivor. I’m not good at the game, I’m trying to be better but I also don’t have access to any of the other survivors. And when a game looks hopeless yes I kill myself on hook. I usually just get tunneled out anyway. I seriously try to loop and get better but not winning is taking a toll on me. I don’t even know if I want to continue playing this game. I just can’t win on survivor. And with every game that goes by I don’t feel myself getting better. I don’t know really how to loop and I go against these killers that are just so oppressive and on top of me. I just can’t compete. Is this normal for a new survivor to go through?
as others have said: it's normal at this point.
People usually consider players with sub 1k hours babies who haven't even begun to really figure anything out. Which is also true. I did some very rough math somwhere and if, as surv, you want to learn how to counter each killer in regular matches it'd take you at least 2k hours; and that's assuming you encounter all killers frequently enough, which you don't, so those 2k hours are in theory; in practice it's gonna take a lot longer. And that's you not having mastered a single killer by playing that killer. Assuming it takes as much time to master killers people need about 4k hours minimum to actually be able to say they know all parts of the game (meaning playing as and countering every killer on various maps with various builds). That's, quite frankly, an absurd amount of time.
And honestly: if you're not into "spread-sheeting" games (aka not play the game to learn the game but go to YT uni to watch hours of videos and guides on the mechanics, strategies, tactics and what not and then dedicate time to 1v1 (that's kill your friends mode with one surv and one killer where you just go to a map and do chase) to practise all that) before you actually start playing the game… just don't play. Especially not by yourself. If you have 3-5 friends; sure, make it something you can enjoy together either in public matches or in kill your friends. But if you don't have that group of people. Just don't.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796938#Comment_3796938
the share of people who would end up in that Q is actually very small.
The type of players you get changes depending on region and MMR, so the types of players I get may be very different from the types you get in your lobbies. I get curious and find those survivors who've never had an icon next to their name on the HUD…. I've done a lot of following a survivor back and forth between one rock and a different rock, or walking in circles in the basement. Or the multiple times I've been able to see survivors who never left the balcony on Garden of Joy. I've had a lot of matches with friendly or simply very inexperienced killers where someone would escape with fewer than 8k BP. On one really bad day there were multiple matches where I'd die or escape and see someone else still in the match had less than half the BP of what the next lowest person had (I'd check and spectate and no, they were not AFK).
I'm sorry people misjudged your contributions to the team. Personally, though, my matches would see a hell of a big improvement if the queue could separate certain playstyles.
nah, it's alright; it was just a way to illustrate what I meant when I said players have a distorted image. - Like I said I have my fair share of "omg what are these people doing" — or, well, not doing for that matter — moments. But I think it's important to be aware that even if these things do happen it's still more likely that you assume they happen way more often than they actually do, simply because you (or I or anyone) can't see the full picture.
That matchmaking is absolutely whack sometimes also plays a role - that's very true and I wish it could separate the newbs and give them their own pool (technically it's supposed to do that but in effect it kinda clearly doesn't). Cause I wouldn't fault a new player for what would usually be considered excessive hiding. They're still in the horror-game-phase - and even if they're out of it they most definitely don't know where anything is on a map or where to go. Them running around the map like a lost puppy for the majority of the match is to be expected. -
Well, with the automatic aura-reveal in 2v8 I had a feeling that the default is supposed to be "the killers knows exactly where you are". The Distortion change is in line with that (it basically only counters Lethal now). I for sure don't like that direction but I think it has been made abundantly clear that you're not supposed to be able to hide from the killer if the killer wants to find you.
I could, maybe, get on board with Distortion being this way and having the added affect of notifying you when you aura is revealed; so to make it basically exactly as the 2v8 event. But not even that.
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It's a lot of changes and at least for the killer perks I don't know enough about many of them. DMS looks good, Crowd Control as well, Zanshin…. idk, reads op but I don't know how it plays out in game.
As for surv perk changes; I suppose during the 2v8 event it was decided that killers shall always know where a surv is if they wish to know where a surv is. The only perk to reliably counter with Distortion is Lethal. Given the plethora and arbitrariness of aura read perks any other occasional aura block you might be lucky to get is inconsequential. Read: not worth to equip Distortion anymore. (If you get screwed by Lethal equipping OTR is still the better option.)
Curious to see where the teamwork changes lead. - Really like the WGLF change.
Quick Gambit has the potential to be broken af when paired with endurance.
Killer changes…. no matter how much they change Skully; at this point I'm inclined to believe it's the base concept that just doesn't work.
Billy changes… the rework made him kinda busted - but this might be going a bit too far in the other direction. Will see.
Twins and unknown… can't tell, don't play or encounter those killers enough to say.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796853#Comment_3796853
they should go play with others that have the exact same attitude
I would love if the queue worked like this. There are certain playstyles that make for miserable teammates. The people who "next" immediately? Put them together. The survivors who do nothing but crouch around and hide and never help the team? Put them together. Whether the players course correct or not, at least they won't be trashing solo queue with their behavior.
The thing with that is: seeing what some people write in egc, what other survs get is a massively distorted image. Just recently I had a player accuse me of not knowing how to play, hiding all game and being too scared to do anything and just all around useless. Idk why they got that idea. I did 2.5 gens - one of which while the chase was right next to me but the killer too focused on trying to outplay a tile to notice or bother, unhooked several people, chased for a good while (and tbh have no idea how/why the killer didn't down me; honestly had a "can have down in five seconds but must.kick.gen." vibe). Somehow I did end up with 0 hookstages - but not for lack of trying to get the killer's attention. The only thing I didn't do was run into an ongoing chase (where the surv was safe and knew what they were doing). - It's anecdotal and I too have my fair share of moments where I could grab and shake survs that (seemingly) do nothing but I think the share of people who would end up in that Q is actually very small.
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@DaddyPyramid said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794902#Comment_3794902
well thats her personal opinion and "i dont think its connected" doesnt exactly prove anything no offense thats one devs opinion
This whole discussion is personal opinion that doesn't exactly prove anything.
Mandy does have access to aggregated data - but she doesn't perform a statistical analysis to get the p values and whatnot to prove correlation or causation. But what she got is still a little better, in my opinion, than the individual observation(s) of a single person. At the very least complaints remaining at a steady level means there hasn't been something that had a massive impact. - An example where I fully expect the number of complaints showing the impact a change had is medkits/surv self-healing. Prior to the medkit nerf there was a thread complaining about medkits/survivor self-healing every other day and discussions got pretty heated. Ever since the nerf I see maybe the odd healing-is-still-too-strong-thread once every other month or so.
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If someone was a little bit petty they'd say; since you only need to get one thing right as killer to win a match with most killers and builds the vast majority of times that leaves two options: the killers who do complain surv is OP can't even manage to get that one thing right — or these killers think they not just have to win the vast majority of their matches but all matches.
But in all seriousness; while I do think the above isn't necessarily untrue (exaggerated, yes - but not untrue) I do also think it's difficult to make a statement about "killers" collectively. There are huge differences between the killers and someone who plays a killer with a non-sweaty build and finds themselves on a map that isn't good for that killer might genuinely find that survs are OP and kinda forget to mention that they mean OP on that map against that killer with that build. As a player you shouldn't always have to bring the strongest of the strongest stuff to even have a shot.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795041#Comment_3795041
There is nothing else taken into account for role bonus. Its just whats in most need. Has nothing to do with MMR
Well, the bonus is either scuffed or it does, in fact, take MMR range into account. When playing with others - one of them in the same room, the other in a different part of town - the question is always "one of you got inventives?" and quite often either I or one of the other two have. And them being at a different MMR than I (I play off meta and for challenges - they play on meta and went to checkspot bootcamp; needless to say our escape rates and thus MMR are worlds apart) and MMR factoring into inventives is quite honestly the only explanation.
On topic: it's usually on either 50% or 100% on surv for me as well. - Haven't played much though. Caught a glimpse of a 25% killer incentive once over the past few days at 11pm or something but that was it. Said friends tend to have 25% surv bonus for most of the day - at least whenever I shoot a glance at the stream it says that. -
half agree. - Though, there is one thing to keep in mind: the dc penalty is, above anything, a managing system. Managing what? Who is in Q at a given time.
So while I agree removing the dc penalty altogether would do a terrible job at keeping people who dc for the silliest reasons out of the matchmaking Q, I think capping it at, say 15 minutes per role, would be alright. Got too tilted playing surv? Take a breather - maybe try a killer match in the mean time. Got too tilted as a killer? Take a breather - maybe try a surv match in the meantime. Even if that person keeps dcing every match (which I assume would be quite the outlier to begin with) they would have a pretty minimal impact on the overall matches, I'd assume.
I would also pair it with reworking the 4%; someone somewhere suggested removing the hook-time-reduction and replacing it with a cooldown; you still get your three attempts but you don't get them in rapid succession, except if you have a perk that is self-unhooking-related or only one surv is not on hook. I kinda like that idea.
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@Paternalpark said:
Ima stop, I'm just beating a dead horse at this point.
tbh, I loved you doing that right as people said "I'm escaping at least half the time" as if it follows that a killer can't possibly 4k all the time. And in you waltz with that 😂
Also find the people going "this means nothing" quite hilarious. As if you're the only on capable of doing that and as if the very fact that even one person can consistently do this somehow makes it alright (as a mechanic / game design).
(Also full disclosure: I'd absolutely hate going against you cause I hate when killers play like that, which is exactly the point you're making, I suppose. - But in this context it's honestly quite hilarious.) -
@DaddyPyramid said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794681#Comment_3794681
and what exact "data" proved that tunneling and camping is still high during peak meta? do you have any proof of that or are you just trying to gaslight more
It's referring to this post by Mandy and is probably as exact as we gonna get:
@Mandy said:
Given a brief look at the data, the numbers and complaints are about the same, so I don't think it's connected to gen regression at all.
"it" being tunneling and camping.
I don't know if you were around during that time Eruption blocked a gen for a good while every time it procd (and iirc there wasn't even a cooldown) and some other regression perks were pretty busted as well if used together (and they were pretty much always used together). In my memory it was the time where gen regression was the absolute strongest and the regression during the 2v8 event seemed tame by comparison. And both I and the people i played with kept wonder: Why for all that's holy do so so many people still feel the need to hold their three gen while focusing on tunneling someone out? Because the thing with gen regression being strong is that it makes tunneling even stronger. The carrot approach has evidently not worked; so the buff to regression got removed and they now take a different approach.
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The problem you have, OP, is that you phrased your title as a factual statement, when it really is a personal opinion. You're kinda setting yourself up for being challenged based on facts and your anecdotal evidence (personal experience) being rejected.
Anyone can have any opinion they want, even an entirely baseless one or one solely based on anecdotal evidence. But you can't base something you want accepted as a factual statement on an opinion. Or say that what you experience and think is experienced and thought by others - which you don't do explicitly but indirectly by following your personal experience up with generalised statements about "killers", "survivors", "we" etc.
On the actual topic: If someone was to accept the claim that survivors "condition" killers to camp and tunnel - then that someone would also have to accept the claims that killers condition survivors to DC, 4%, bring BNP and stack perks. That's how adapting to a situation works; someone experiences something and wonders how they can be better prepared if this something happens again and then they might decide to do that the next time around. But leaving it at that also leads nowhere since it's the chicken and egg kinda thing; do you find killers tunnel, camp, slug because they have adapted to what survs bring/do — or do you find survs bring the stuff they bring and do what they do because they have adapted to what killers bring/do? As others have mentioned; since actual data suggests the prevalence of tunneling and camping has remained pretty unaffected by changes like regression it would follow that survs have adapted to what killers do.
But since we're in the area of anecdotal evidence, let me contrast your experience with my experience:I don't see BNP everywhere, the people I see DC don't DC because of a failed FL or pallet-save (they usually DC when it's clear a match is lost a minute into said match, when the killer seems to make it a point to make survs miserable, there is a busted/scummy build/playstyle in play or they, for one reason or the other, refuse to play a match with a certain killer), I don't see gens fly super quick - except if a killer is absolutely overcommitting a surv and spends 2 min+ chasing them and I also see more killers bringing map offerings than survs.
As a surv I don't want to go against a potential sweaty and/or scummy killer - but that's what I have come to expect as it happens in what feels like 9/10 matches. Vice versa I've found that on killer it's a very black and white kinda thing (though I only play Nemo with a nor particularly strong build); stomp or be stomped, neither of which is particularly fun either. -
@ZamasuManzon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794624#Comment_3794624
Makes sense, but with me it happens so often that it has to be a skill issue XD.
Not necessarily. You can also look for some clips/yt of Spitz who so happens to pretty much live right next to the Frankfurt servers, given is sub-15-ms-ping. The things he can do vs anyone not having that ping are pretty insane - especially if the killer has somewhat decent ping as well. The reverse is also true, though; if you have (some) ping and the killer does (and the frequency with which I get matched with killers on a different continent is…. baffling. There's a few people I know on NA servers and sometimes get them randomly as a killer and am like "#########?! - You VPN-ing cause it's the wrong time of day for Qs where you are?" "Nope." "bruh.") it's basically a coin flip if you get the drop first or the killer the hit - or both; where you drop (and sometimes even stun) the killer… while also getting hit and teleported to the other side of the pallet (or you know, on some side of the pallet)
Long story short: Once it comes down to being a reaction/timing issue it also always is a ping issue.
There is one thing that happens to me sometimes though; the "space" prompt around pallets is a bit weird and there are positions where it visually looks like you should be able to drop the pallet - but you don't actually have the prompt, so you can't. If that's what's getting you I'd recommend a) enabling an input tracker so you know exactly when you press spacebar and b) recording your screen at very high fps and then playing that moment back and check more or less frame by frame if you pressing spacebar and you having the prompt lines up.
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Tbf, I think up to ~500-1000 hours that's the only thing survivors even can do… so no wonder it sticks. Why is it the only the survs can do? A whole host of killers has various anti-loop strategies; different from killer to killer and oftentimes influences by addons. There are almost 40 killers in this game at this point and at least two dozen addons and a dozen perks that influence what can and can't be hit at which tile. People play this game for fun, there's no "B.A. of DBD" with lectures like "The Strength and weaknesses of [insert killer] in chase: A review of the most successful strategies employed by players" accompanied by a practical seminar where these things are trained. — And taking that kind of appraoch should absolutely not be a prerequisite.
So what does work against all killers - sometimes better and sometimes worse but always to a sufficient degree - regardless of their builds? Leaving upon hearing the TR (especially when there's no active chase) and making the killer use time to even start the chase - and then trying to keep as much distance as possible for as long as possible, aka dropping out-of-range whatever makes the killer waste time and gives you distance.
The below is a little thought experiment guesstimating some numbers. The bottom line is: To be able to actually loop the killer roster well and not get screwed by their power/addons/builds all the time it takes literal thousands of hours. Trying to properly loop a killer learning-by-doing-style (the way most people play video games, I dare say) isn't feasible in dbd, so players do what is feasible.
I don't like it - neither as killer nor as survivor. But I ain't gonna go to dbd university or the shack 1v1 bootcamp just to play the friggin game. - Getting killers down learning-by-doing-style takes… quite a lot of time. How much exposure to (good) chase do you need to know how to deal with a killer and all the possible builds? - About… 5 hours straight chase with the different builds on the different maps to get all the stuff down sound about right? Say, since this won't happen in one day, or even a month, an extra hour cause sometimes there's so much time inbetween seeing that killer that you might as well start from scratch/have to get the hang of certain things all over again. Given how long chases are supposed to last you probably get one minute of chase on average per match. To fill six hours that way you need to play 360 matches per killer. One match lasts about 13 minutes on average, iirc. Let's go for 10 since you won't always make it to the end. That comes out at 2220 hours. And that is the minimum; chances are you won't see as many wraiths as you see weskers and not as mana sadakos as you see wraiths and not as many hags as you see sadakos.
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Some of the responses are wild and so besides the point.
With how contentious the topic of tunneling/camping is, I actually find it really nice that there is a before-after comparison applying the same definition. "It's more now" and all that is just relative. - And while the definition might not be one everyone agrees to, it is consistent; so seeing that much of an increase is interesting.Speaking of interesting:
"Could that be due to DCs and Survivors giving up? It turns out that out of 18 games where there DCs and survivors giving up while the game was still winnable 13 of them were done when there was no camping, no tunneling and no slugging for the 4Ks. In other words, it was more likely a Survivor gave up or DCed when the Killer was playing in an enjoyable fashion. That I didn’t expect either."
There are a number of killers that change tac once a survivor DCs. Personally, I'm on the fence about this: sometimes I want a DC match to just end asap (cause really, having to watch a bot is… there are no words) other times turning the whole match into players just vibing and making the best of a situation does work and can actually be quite enjoyable and there's a silent agreement that everyone gets done what they want to get done in the match and then the killer gets to sacrifice the survs (except maybe if they have an escape challenge and can somehow communicate that). — Anyway: here it would be good to know at which point the DCs occur.I do agree: a particular playstyle by one side, leading to exceptionally good results for that side if used against a particular subset of players of the other side, is concerning. Especially if the 'solution' is "git gut" — cause that automatically boots you from that subset of players of the other side. Making MMR increase more if tunneling/camping is detected (lets ignore the technical challenge implementing this would pose for the sake of argument) is not the way though.
This is for two reasons: one is that "challenging MMR" isn't actually something that makes the game experience good; most people enjoy a mix of difficult and easy matches and MMR should facilitate that (if I find it I edit it in/post it in a later reply - it's a statement of one of the guys who did a lot of MMR things and I found his argument very compelling). The other reason is: DBD's SBMM doesn't actually use "strict" MMR; the soft cap is at a point where anything beyond that soft cap is still an extremely mixed bag. People in "medium"-MMR would probably see less suffering - people who are past the soft cap would suffer all the more though. Especially those that are barely past the soft-cap would get the extremely short end of the stick; as they're not actually super good but they still get matched with those who are on a regular basis.
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@Memesis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789655#Comment_3789655
Come now, why go after any of the three other players when I have a juicy injured pre-contaminated survivor who's ALSO missing a hook state, right where I want them just waiting to get unhooked? People even try to body block for more easy mutation rate.
Nemesis lacks the mobility, tracking and pressure needed to find other targets (zombie tracking is extremely unreliable, like their map pressure). You're practically throwing against a strong team if you don't aim to disrupt an unhook attempt.
Nemesis seems to be doubled down as a strong 1v1 with his t-strike buffs, making camping and tunneling a winning strategy for him in conjunction with his power. It has little to do with the players ability to use his M2.
idk man, if the vast majority of structures are unsafe against a killer not being able to build up pressure in the vast majority of matches, seems like a skill issue. He does lack mobility - which is why I think the recent tweaks are misguided - but that's something I do acknowledge. Though, at this point there's very few maps that are too large for him left.
Doing what you describe sure is the easy way - and it works exceptionally well on him, I give you that. But you aren't facing strong teams during most of your matches. So meh.
But let me rephrase to maybe make my core point a bit more clear: If you got M2 down and know how to make most tiles/plays unsafe you absolutely do not have to camp/tunnel in the overwhelming majority of matches. That's where being able to consistently land M2s gets you. — And it's something I see none of the camping/tunneling Nemos do. — To me it's almost like someone not bothering to figure out how to blink as Nurse into a tile and then complaining about her not being good in chase and claiming the only thing she's good at is blinking back on hook when someone goes for the unhook.
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I am amazed how people seem to genuinely believe that countering that combo is super easy and not an inconvenience at all. - Have you ever tried to find a random item in a random spot? Have you ever tried moving it somewhere else while the killer sees you doing that without giving the killer a free tag (cause if you want to minimise the aura reading you will bring it to a dead zone of sorts). Have you ever checked how much time that takes? More than 20 seconds? Then it's more powerful slowdown than PainRes on top of providing info.
— I do like the suggestion @RozeChrimzon made. To have items lost because of Franklins disappear once the charges are zero. Seems a good middle ground between the killer getting aura value and preventing survs from using an item — and survivors not being screwed for the rest of the match. -
I don't understand either. Nemo is the one killer I do have a lot of hours on - simply because I find it a lot of fun to hit M2 over (/around) all kinds of things (and with some of them it's nigh impossible to get hits on).
What I found the camping Nemos to have in common is that they don't really know how to use M2 on its own. They throw something for quicker mutation rate on and then Thanos around for half the match cause they can't land their M2 hits and then either rage quit or, if they camped, proclaim camping/tunneling is the only way Nemo is viable. Idk, I suppose if you don't use a killer's power then camping/tunneling is the only way to get kills. It's also shooting yourself in the foot cause you ain't learning how to do M2 at that rate.
He does have it rough on some maps if survs know how to play them (either because of their size or because of certain tiles that sort of force you to M1) and then proxying and making it 3v1 asap is kinda key to 3/4k - but encountering those survs is somewhat rare so I can't really see that kind of "habit" developing; you're just used to running into those survs so that's what you do by default. -
@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3788590#Comment_3788590
BVHR doesn't own reshade. They are under no obligation to make sure new updates work with reshade.
That is absolutely correct. - I never claimed bhvr had that obligation.
If anything I claim that bhvr has an obligation to provide adequate graphics settings instead of making paying customers change their hardware's settings to make their game playable. -
… and asking paying customers for such a roundabout way of making the game playable is plain unreasonable.
It works, yes - and I appreciate you trying to help. - It doesn't make it any less unreasonable though. Sadly, I also don't think it will be not necessary any time soon, looking at how many years it took to implement an AA-switch…
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3788194#Comment_3788194
the game meant to be dark. it is horror game. it is just some player don't want that. they want the game to be clear as crystal for competitive advantage. all they're doing in this update is removing competitive advantage, much like stretch res. reshade and filter are much worse then stretch res. red glow if used by experienced survivor makes 60% of m1 killer practically unplayable if the player is good.
… there's a difference between "dark" and "might as well turn the display off"
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It's obnoxious.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3787466#Comment_3787466
I sincerely doubt that the "vast majority" of people using filters are using them because they are colorblind.
never claimed it was because of colorblindness. - I was saying "within the norm" i.e. to account for personal preferences that have no significant impact on match outcomes.
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Also. Just for reference, let's play a game of which is which. We got a) no Luma Sharpen but AA b) Luma Sharpen but no AA c) no AA and no Luma Sharpen (you probably have to click to open it full size cause otherwise you can't see the difference in the first place…)
Do I want to be able to achieve my preferred look (no AA but Luma Sharpen) without having to resort to Reshade? Absolutely! Am I holding my breath it will happen within the next five years? Absolutely not.
Most people I know that use Reshade use it in a way similar to mine. Some adjust the gamma, some colour balance - sometimes to account for their display that is old or calibrated for something else. - Usually you can't even tell they use it if it's not a side-by-side image.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3787455#Comment_3787455
What i'm saying is, allowing a tiny minority of people to use a cheat for accessibility purposes is not the proper solution to the problem when it enables others to cheat. The BETTER solution is to offer those accessibility options in the game for everyone, and punish cheaters for cheating.
agreed it would be a lot better; I truly wish we had decent graphics settings. - But I also take the tiny chance of someone using something that by some is defined as cheating in the mean time over the vast majority being left in the rain.
While not as life threatening it falls - for me - into the same category as the transportation rules saying you must not eat or drink on the subway and that you will get kicked off if you do. Idk about you - but if someone has something in their throat/has an issue with the AC and is coughing as if they're suffocating I doubt anyone has a problem with them opening their friggin bottle, drinking something and chewing gum or eating a bonbon or whatever to help with the throat. -
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3787429#Comment_3787429
So because SOME people don't use it to cheat, we should allow others to be able to use it to cheat?
Look, I'd be 100% with you… if the Dbd devs actually offered a solution to legitimate issues players have. The devs don't, though. And the whole "because one group is suffering because they play on a different platform and can't help themselves everyone has to suffer!" doesn't ring like a very constructive approach.
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ngl, if dbd actually offered graphics settings from this millenium anyone who uses Reshade within the norm wouldn't use it anymore.
As someone said: playing the game during the day in a regular room is simply impossible and using Reshade to solve that issue software side instead of going through the trouble of changing your display settings hardware side with the tiny, finnicky buttons on the display every time you want to play the game and then change it back is absolutely reasonable.
Same for sharpness for me; using a simple luma sharpen gives you essentially the same result as turning anti-aliasing off. With the difference that you don't have that almost comic-style half-tone effect on transparencies. I get dizzy looking at the blurry-AA default settings and I also don't like seeing a bunch of haircards instead of actual hair - so Reshade it is.
People have many a times asked for more graphics settings. It took … 6? years for the anti-aliasing slider. If that's the rate at which we're going… then I'm not very optimistic.