Halloulle
Halloulle
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Eh - dbd is mostly like that ex you really should just go no-contact with but their antics are still so absurd that you can't help but drop by every now and again.
2v8 was less glorious fun and more hilarious s* show than before. Maybe the novelty wearing off, maybe some of the stuff that's been introduced ( cough Legion cough) isn't exactly adding to the chaotic fun but more to the tedious side of it — but still more fun than your average 1v4 experience.
I'm glad it's over though; I do have other stuff to do. -
Occasionally the big story ones when there's a new one; RE, Far Cry, AC (well, not the next one though) etc, Alan-Wake-Universe, Horizon etc.
All-time-goodies are Age of Empires II, Anno and Planet Zoo.
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The issue with downvoting is that it shadow-silences people who don't share the mainstream view as there's always the risk of unfounded mass-downvoting (not to be confused by some people just going around downvoting everything). Yes, if you voice an opinion you have to be prepared for disagreement - however, pressing a button anonymously is not disagreement; if you want to criticise OP you also need to want to engage in a discussion. That's only possible if the criticism is voiced in a comment, with actual points that can be addressed.
Much rather I would like to see both the "down" and the "up" votes removed and have it replaced with "important"; to signal that you think the topic is relevant and important to discuss - regardless of which opinion you have on it.
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Straight up unfair? Problably only how pallet stuns sometimes work; from the killer pov it often looks like you should really be out of that pallet - yet you still get stunned. And maybe map offerings coupled with specialised squads that want to do their special build for that map.
Other than that? I play fair and chill and I know where the limits of that are. (Also, for the record and because it has come up in previous replies; just because you don't set your mind to tunneling and camping you're not automatically playing fair.)
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@Memesis said:
Same survivors will tea bag until the egc timer hits the last second or until theyre pushed out. But a mori on the last survivor? Thats apparently a problem. Can dish it out but cant take it.
The difference is the killer can do something about the survs inthe gate; they can push them out. The killer can also choose to just not go to the gate.
The morid surv however has no way to to something about it.
___Personally I just hate repetitive cutscenes that get old real fast (I also hate the forced bloodweb animation, the match load-in camera turn, the camera turn on hook and the running out the exit gate animation - but that last one at least transitions kinda nicely). - Simple fix though; just add a "skip" option to the animation. If someone wants to watch it; go ahead. Anyone who doesn't can just skip and move on.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887342#Comment_3887342
Removing one tiny thing of "do i heal after i unhook or not" in the effort to make tunneling not a thing, is well worth it. And saying that doing so would "remove nearly all skill expression the survivor role has" is quite frankly a ridiculous statement.
So looping, deciding which gens to do, leading killers to stronger areas in a chase, countering specific killer powers differently, dodging hits, knowing when to save teammates, body blocking. None of those things are any kind of skill expression? You realize that the "fun" part of DBD is the chase right?
It's not just "do I heal after unhook or not" - it's everything surrounding it that gets removed as well.
That player can't take agency in deciding which gens to do, can't lure the killer anywhere and bodyblocking would be such a niche occurence (cause when do you body block? Because you're in one place with a surv who remained uninjured after an unhook) it would hardly occur anymore."Deciding which gens to do" is a skill that should be acquired once you've realised what maps look like. That takes what? 50 hours if you don't go to external sources? That's on the same skill level as realising if you want to stealth you shouldn't fast vault or that dropping from a great height staggers and there are only few places where you can actually drop in chase and get an advantage. You also don't need the "skill" to save a teamie at the right time - if you feel like you can get an unhook for free mid chase that'd be a brilliant idea; the sooner they're off that hook the sooner they can get back to the gen. Dodging hits is a last resort and between ping (idk about you but I regularly get 100+ ping killers) and how wonky the game has been lately it's more luck than skill. - I give you the countering different killers though.
And yes, I am perfectly well aware chase is the fun part — but you have about 135 seconds of that max per match. For those 135 seconds you spend a lot more time doing essentially nothing. If I want to just chase I go to a dbd server and go "come shack 1v1" then I have chase. Pubs are only more fun than just shack 1v1 because there's interaction between survs and surv actions have to kinda complement each other. In your version the only time a surv should interact, or even see, another surv is during the unhook animation.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886991#Comment_3886991
Well, the "its not always the right choice" is precisely the point of the timeout. There are 2 problems this is solving;
- Low level survivor players typically do not make the right decision in regards to "Should they heal or should they not"
- Low level survivor players are often not able to handle being injured for long periods of time.
- Low level survivor players struggle against tunneling often leading to "farming" their teammates
- High level MMR NOT HEALING is actually too strong in a lot of cases.
- High level MMR tunneling/proxy camping is pretty much necessary in order to stand a chance at winning.
So what does such a system do?
- Well, it addresses the healing problem for low level survivors by simply healing them, they don't have to worry about it.
- It addresses the tunneling problem by making it impossible.
- It addresses the problem of tunneling being necessary at the highest MMR levels because the killer can now KNOW that survivor is AT MINIMUM on a timeout for 32 seconds. Which is significant enough to put a dent into survivor gen efficiency that the killer that tunneling is no longer necessary.
Its the type of change that improves the game at all levels of play. It makes low level survivors feel safer and better able to handle tunneling. And it slows the game down at the highest levels in a way that doesn't punish survivors for doing their objective (like they keep doing for killers with the anti-everything basekit stuff) but instead rewards killers for going for hooks.
Respectfully: No on all accounts.
What you book as improvements for unskilled survs and a damper on skilled survs just removes nearly all skill expression the survivor role has - the only section where skill expression is marginally there would be chase. That, in turn, means that Qing up as surv essentially means you spend the vast, vast majority of you match in time out of one sort or the other; either your 32 second time out after being unhooked or 90 seconds on a gen. Yes, gens are a form of time out. The game would not change whatsoever if, instead of gens, there were chairs a surv has to sit in for 90 seconds total. Given that the target chase time is 45 secs start to hook iirc and survs are expected to complete at least one gen, you actually spend more time timed out while you're not even on a hook than playing the game (the only "playing the game" that could count as such would be chase at that point).
I mean, if the devs want to go for it; sure. But I'm fairly certain at that point dbd becomes a PVE game….
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885958#Comment_3885958
Basically the way i would do it is.
- Killer hooks a survivor
- Survivor is unhooked
- They get this buff that makes it so they can't be hurt by the killer in any way, but they can't do anything like totems or gens or anything. Probably make them even invisible to the killer, no collision, etc.
- After 32 seconds, that buff expires, and the survivor is fully healed and now able to interact with the game.
Basically, these doesn't lose total time for the survivors, because to heal a survivor who is just unhooked, both survivors have to interact for 16 seconds which is a total of 32 seconds . But now, you basically automate that healing interaction, kinda like the medkit addons for example. But during that time, you know the survivor can't be working a gen. So the survivor who unhooks, can just run back to a gen and not "waste" time healing.
So the total time spent off a gen is still the same, but its all put on that 1 survivor, and it is forced. This also prevents them from "tunneling gens" by just ignoring healing for example.
I'd also throw in reworking the AFC mechanic, to just teleport the survivor on the hook to the hook that is closest to the survivor that is furthest away from the killer. Similar to PH/2v8 cages. That way if it happens that survivor should almost always have enough time to unhook them before the killer can come after them again, thus rendering them invulnerable for that 32 seconds.
That would make a whole bunch of surv perks (related to healing & hooks & injured states) so niche that it makes no sense to equip them, resulting in even more perks being obsolete. It also reduces surv-interaction and robs the unhooked surv of agency forcing them to twiddle their thumbs and basically go afk for a good chunk of time. Healing asap after unhook isn't even always the right play, thus taking that choice away from survs further reduces their range of plays and choices.
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Well, let's hope anti-slug part 2 in Life Initiative Phase 2 has a solution for that.
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I like semantics, so lemme real quick comment on what the metaphor "drought" suggests; that the lack of content is going to be something that threatens not just your health and well-being but your entire existence, that what is coming over the next three weeks is depriving you of something equally fundamental as food and especially water quite possibly leading to many deaths. …. Which I think is a… bit extreme for this ? A "content drought" is actually something that threatens the existence of the thing that is supposed to have that content. — And in this case it's not even like there is not content. There is - just of a different kind.
That being said: I would be curious if it's possible to see some of the changes as live-playtests for e.g. AFK bots, spawn logic, map offerings, hiding&bodyblock prevention. Similar to how they did the background-MMR tests during live some years ago, or the 2v8 bots now. Just a day or so. Might also help counter some concerns people have and an option to gather data (&feedback) on individual measures.
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Well, for round one they did get out not just the stick but a barbed stick. And given the rather limited information they provided, I can see where the worry is coming from. If you're a surv who isn't a masochist and/or into being a punching bag this very much reads like "let's force you to stay in a miserable situation - surely a few bp will turn you on and go 'more, gimme more'" (yes, please do read that in that kinda voice).
Is this how it's actually gonna play out? Who knows. There's not enough info to tell; enough to raise concerns, not enough to dispel concerns.
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I do wonder how people keep forgetting the 2 in 2v8 means there's TWO killers. - Legion doesn't commit to you. If Legion (and esp. the other killer) just play casually it's all good and dandy. - But if the two actually play together and/or take the match seriously? Every killer is basically turned into an insta-down killer .. just without drawbacks. It doesn't matter that Legion is "just an M1 killer". Wesker isn't. Nurse isn't. Huntress isn't. Blight isn't. Wraith technically is but he's exceptional at hit n run and if all you need is one hit….
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It mostly depends on how serious the killer players take the match, I find. - I haven't played much, but during the matches I have played, only few were try-harding, so it was alright-ish. Though, the matches where the killers were try-harding were absolutely miserable.
Given the ping and general latency/lag issues in 2v8, the whole stun-Legion-thing doesn't really work - but well, like I said; most of them aren't taking it serious and if they and their partner are taking it seriously, an inability to stun Leg is kinda the least of your problems 😂 -
Phew, I mean, yes in principle a good approach - but how likely is it really that those who're fed up by the bots will actually return?
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Well, I'm past the point where I'm invested in DBD in a way where I want things to go in a direction I like. Personally, in 2v8 one surv disconnecting and a bot taking their place very early in the match did not really have a negative impact. - Though, in how far that is different if two bots are there from the beginning… in no small part depends on how the bots work (watching them is painful more often than not… - but at least they do do gens) and in how far people being annoyed is going to be self fulfilling prophecy.
During the last two iterations I had a blast - I'll try this way as well and if it's not fun I do what I do with the regular mode of dbd: just not play it (safe for the very few occasions where irl friends want to play a few matches and hang out which currently amounts to… ~2hrs/every other week).
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880720#Comment_3880720
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLQqvTCgAaw&t=17s
Here's random video of tru3 starting the game. let's count how long it took him to find a gen. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 seconds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRKq596tCE
ok here's start of a killer game. how does it take tru3 to find first survivor. 1, 2, 3, 4 ….. 48 seconds. even when you know when survivor is after hook. it still takes like 20 second to go into the chase and there is 3x survivors on the map compare the killer. the transition times between chases are either == or longer for killer.
the dev expect you 10-12 hook with super fast gens. crazy.
I start to feel like a broken record; I don't care very much was Tru does or says but that Bubba video you posted isn't exactly getting me on the "he has really good mikro and makro" side of things - quite the opposite. - Looking at the firs tor so minute of that killer match; he's distracted by chat from the get go (which is alright; he's a streamer, his job is to look at chat from time to time - but it's still attention he's not paying to clues on screen). The game recognises the chase as having started 44 seconds into the video, which is 40 seconds into the match. He took time breaking a wall (which is a reasonable choice there but not default time spent starting a match), went around the wrong side of shack and still managed to push Nea off the gen at about 20% gen progress (first piston wasn't fully moving). He spends time kicking that gen (questionable choice at that point since the gen doesn't have an awful lot of progress; likely to kick a different gen before getting ML value). He still gets the down right around the time the first gen pops — then then prioritizes ML value over Tink value? Walks around aimlessly for about fifteen seconds and then, just when Tink ran out(!) decides to go to the gen after all? - All of those choices are questionable.
Look, I'm really not a bubba player - but Bubba with Tink on their way to a doubled gen (they have to double that gen, probably with either a gen-perk or TB, actually) has pretty good chances at getting one down, maybe even both, considering it's a rather open gen like that one; no locker to hop into, no pallet to drop, no corner to bump on. At least in my experience on the receiving end of that. -
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880033#Comment_3880033
this calculation assumes that everyone just teleports and spends zero time traversing the map. This is already unrealistic and where most of these calculations go wrong. You move across the map. Survivors can't just beeline everywhere; they run into you, you run into them, chase runs into a gen that is being progressed - and ideally you have enough makro-awareness to control this process; make chase go somewhere where you know other survs are that then need to relocate etc.
Killers after hooking have to go to gens, find the survivor, begin the chase. their time sink to transition between chases is longer then survivor's time sink to go next the gen. you look at light posts as survivor and you run to them. it is very simple. Indoor maps are only maps where gen take slightly more memorization but there is not that many and towards any player over 2000 hours, they likely have every map in their head for gens. depending on your ability to learn games, you might get in 1000 hours or less.
i am saying that base-kit, survivor get gen-rush because their objectively is physically faster. It is anywhere between 2 minutes -3 minutes faster. lowest bound is 2 minutes than you have factor in the 3rd player which can spend up the game or not. that is why if you notice SWF escape/kill-rate, notice how escape-rate dramatically increases in 3 man swf and than it major increases in 4 man swf. that is because the gens go faster in 3 man swf then 2 man swf and they go EVEN faster in 4 man swf because everyone is purely glued to objective. no joke, if you have ever played 4 man swf, you feel like your speed-running the game. there has been games where 1 chase = 5 gens. that is how quick it goes.
Your right that killer failed if 1 chase = 5 gens and you can argue the same that 1 chase = 3 gen is killer failing however i am arguing that when killer is good. They play killer properly. they still have a chance to lose. a killer that has 45 second chases with minimal time between said chase should not have losing chances. they should only have losing chances when the survivor outplays the killer.
Do you play a lot of survivor as well? Because this does seem a bit one-sided. Yes, the killer has to go somewhere. So do survivors. Survivors have to move around killer movement; they have less direct paths and are slower. If, as a killer, you have a decent understanding of the map you should, more often then not, know when and where you can cut off a survivor heading to the next gen or heading to the hook, forcing survivors to reshuffle, which makes all of them move - which is none of them being on a gen.
When it comes to Solo vs swf I think the more accurate reflection of the "base kit balancing" of the game is actually the low MMR stats. - Simply because how effective tunneling (by which I mean getting down to 3 survs asap) is up to a certain point; there are a number of players who end up in high-killer MMR because of it without ever having acquired the skills needed to succeed in high MMR. [Or that is my take-away from looking at the people I play with and how baffled they are by what kind of potatoes make it to high MMR] And in egc they are quite talkative; about how rarely they lose and how broken everything is and how it's all genrush and so on and so on — and my guys just sit there give an exasperated sigh and go "dude - you don't know how to run [tile] - What do you expect to happen?"But again; this is all he-said-she-said and really just the impression I got based on what you write. I might be wrong - I might misunderstand. - I wouldn't know without seeing you play and even then I probably still wouldn't know since I don't play all that many different killers (really, the only one I still play regularly is Nemo…) Which is why I say: record some matches, head somewhere where good players (! — there are a lot of guys who think they're good players when really they're not.) like to give advice and ask for advice. Good players will also be able to tell you rather quickly why what you're doing is not working and for what reason; and if the reason is "because that's just the limit of the killer because they can't do X" then that's that.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3879745#Comment_3879745
you can still lose with 45 second chases. co-op 1 gen takes 52 seconds. if each chase is 40 seconds+12 second walk time to the hook. you lose the game in 5 chases. the killer needs 7 hooks min to get 3 kill with perfect tunneling but survivor finish the game in 5 hooks.
you can watch tru3 streams where he does 45 second chases throughout the entire game. he has had games where he made 0 chase errors and still lost with 2k or 3 escape. This is particularly common on weak killers. often killer between C-tier & D-tier which is like half the cast.
two survivors double the first gen, one survivor is on the second gen, the last one gets chased.
first gen = 52 seconds
second gen = 52 charges at hook (probably painres; down to 42 charges), then should get PGTW about 10-20 seconds later (again back to about 40 charges)
one of the survivors of the first gen finds a new gen, the other goes unhook + reset. Assuming you don't go straight back to hook but find the surv that was doing the gen you popped (you should have a good idea of which 1-2 gens you have check for pop) we go to the next chase with 52 seconds.
second gen: is regressing for at least 16 seconds and is down to 36 charges or less by the time any survivor gets there. Let's assume the two who reset go there to double that. The gen pops.
third gen: get's to 52 charges. Get's painres'd and subsequently popped
From here on we repeat.If you actually play that way then yes, all gens would be done when you get your 5th hook; depending on how you play endgame you can get anything between zero additional hookstages and enough downs to get a 4k - but let's just assume the survs either safely rescue or just leave; so it's 6 hooks or 1k.
However, this calculation assumes that everyone just teleports and spends zero time traversing the map. This is already unrealistic and where most of these calculations go wrong. You move across the map. Survivors can't just beeline everywhere; they run into you, you run into them, chase runs into a gen that is being progressed - and ideally you have enough makro-awareness to control this process; make chase go somewhere where you know other survs are that then need to relocate etc.
All in all it comes back down to: It does look like you have trouble building pressure. Your best way to build pressure is to make survs run across the map.
I don't care very much what Tru says or does - I know there are varying opinions on him covering the entire scale from 'he's the worst' to 'he's the best' - overall I trust the players that I know and that I have played with and against and have watched play a lot and while there certainly are grievances and Genrush does exist - none of the grievances is Survivors doing gens efficiently with the basekit options available to them. It's them bringing specific loadouts to do gens as fast as possible along with knowing exactly which tiles and chase-strategies give certain killers a hard time.There are killers who have an easier time than others and not all killers are chase-killers. They are, imo, the most fun ones - but if you want to 'just chase' with a zoning or trapping killer that ain't gonna work very well.
All that being said, I would strongly recommend you record some killer matches and upload them either here or on a dbd-server that has a coaching category and ask what other people playing these killers would suggest/recommend. If they have advice, consider following it. - If they agree with you then their feedback is much more valuable than what anyone here who hasn't seen you play can say. -
So lemme get that straight:
If survivors don't prioritise tomes over playing the match normally or play in a fashion that is generally considered a terrible way to play, they ought to be swf and/or are OP?If three gens pop more or less around the same time by the time you hook the first survivor, then you spent ~70 seconds in chase (counting ~10 seconds to pick and carry the surv to a hook + assuning you spend about as much time getting to your first surv as survs spend getting to the first gen). Afaik the intended median chase time is ~45 seconds. You're way over that which suggests you should look at how you chase; is it the chase itself (hugging tiles, mindgaming, knowing how to play certain tiles etc.) or is it keeping track of when and where to chase and when and where (and who) to better not chase to build pressure? Generally, it's a bad idea to chase certain tiles with certain killers - and it's generally a mistake to over-commit.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3879216#Comment_3879216
I've only been part of a group where one (I think) person was applying cheats to the whole team one time, and I tried to sandbag the player and reported them. I suppose noobs might not recognize that they're playing with an unfair advantage, but any experienced player should. And if so, they shouldn't just go along with it.
To even be able to sandbag the player you need to know where they are. Plus, if a cheater doesn't want you to sandbag them, they can make that happen as well.
Don't get me wrong though; I think a player who, during the match, becomes aware that another player has to be cheating should try to not actively exploit that situation. However, there is relatively little a survivor can even do. Somehow there is that idea that survivors are responsible for the behaviour of their fellow survivors - but that's impossible since you have near zero influence on what another survivor does.
In everyone's best interest is to end that match asap and report the cheating player.
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How do you determine whether others are "in on it"? — Which I understand as them loading into the match knowing what is going to happen and with that knowledge decide to willingly participate in it. What do you expect survivors to do upon realising there is a cheater in the match when they were, when loading into the match, not aware another survivor was going to cheat?
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Sometimes some time off gives a bit of a new perspective.
I basically haven't played soloQ in … since whenever 2v8 ended. There were the occasional swf matches (mostly just cause the other three still enjoy this game and I want to hang out with them and I'm still at least a little better than a bot/your average filler teamie).
But I wanted to get the last few event challenges out of the way so with the mindset to just get those done I Qed up for some soloQ in Chaos Shuffle.
The following things made me scoff and go "yah - nah, ima not stick around longer than I have to".
a) People bringing their most busted stuff. Which happened a lot more with killer; which makes sense. For killers add-ons can be pretty stand alone, for surv it's usually the synergy between certain perks and items that can be problematic under some circumstances. —— Once it becomes clear one side has busted stuff and the other does not there really is no point in being a punching bag. —— It's not necessarily the killer's fault - at least in normal Q - because how would they know what survs bring? If anything it's an issue with matchmaking not taking full loadouts into account.
b) Ping. Facing Blight on 250ms? Heck nah.
c) Refusing to hook as a "preemptive measure" or sometimes just to be obnoxious - I get that if a survivor got freed from your grip two times already you're fed up and go "if that's how you wanna play…" - but doing that from the get go just because, nah. If you wanna play like that - play without me. If you wanna win like that - take your win and leave me alone.
d) Matches past a point of no return - which arguably happens more easily for surv than for killer (an endgame killer build can actuallly turn the match around completely even after all gens have been completed while the same does not hold true for surv). But it can happen both ways so yes, I do think there ought to be a "concede" option; there's no point in playing out a match that has been decided for the sake of playing out the match. Yes, the winning side gets to power trip - but it's at the explicit expense of the losing side; that's plain unhealthy. It fosters both a toxic winner's attitude as well as a bitter, resentful loser's attitude - which, guess what, results in more toxicity.
e) Lack of agency and/or removal of standard gameplay elements; this usually goes hand in hand with a killer refusing to hook or camping/tunneling or chosing another obnoxious playstyle - quite a few killers have their own brand of that. If you're in a match and you look at how much of an impact the actions you can take can have on the match and realise the impact is marginal there's literally no point in taking any action. (Think cages and Triangle guy, Pinhead box-logic, pig camping jigsaw boxes, unavoidable guaranteed-hit-situations, blocking e.g. basement stairs, Nemo tentacle-logic etc. pp.) This is more pronounced in Chaos shuffle where you can't pick perks to expand the actions you can take/make the actions you can take have a bigger impact but it is an issue in regular Q as well.
There are probably more points that contribute to people rather not staying in a match but those were the ones that ticked me off the most.
One that actuallly didn't make the list is the "certain killers" one. Cause, when it comes down to it, it's not necessarily the killer's basekit but certain playstyles usually resulting in one of the above.I won't be going back to SoloQ. Heck, if I don't get dragged to vc and get spammed with invites I won't even go back to DBD at all. — Though, if those points were addressed I would at least give it a try and see if it makes a difference.
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there are several vault-related issues; often you get "lagged back" when vaulting (or even always on some survs? I don't really keep track of which vaulting-hiccup is happening atm. At least both male and female survs have the same vault distance again, right?) which I suppose is an engine thing, but there's also the ping thing; dbd servers seem to have gotten a lot worse over the past few months; from a whole EU lobby smh ending up on NA east servers to what's happening on screen simply not aligning with what the server registers (with artist it's especially noticable in my experience; you know for a fact you're far enough from the birds, can even see them flying by at a good distance… and still get them. While the ping is, allegedly, alright [35-80]).
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Not entirely sure how what's been said so far is attacking the guy (or maybe it's been edited without the "edited" caption?)
But on the topic:
I have never played VHS and I've never developed my own game - but I have done a few things on causation and the sheer number of variables given by the guy makes it kinda impossible to tell what the reason of VHS not succeeding was.
Given that he names "fun" as the main argument in favour of dbd, I seriously doubt it has to do with a camping/tunneling mechanic; it's one of the things players find the most unfun (except all those who find it fun somehow never say so anywhere). Some say it's necessary - but that means it should be addressed.
I do agree with the expectation part though; tools against the killer directly should be limited; it's all about stalling the killer, not stopping them. It's 'playing for time'.
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Someone who's been at it for four pages sure sounds like an LLM having been given a prompt to argue in bad faith.
On the topic: Yeah, friend and I tried playing as duo and four out of for matches were either the slugging option (twins & oni) or the hard-tunneling option (pig & blight). On another occasion I played with two frens and it was the same… in so far as killers attempted to do this but between lucky draws with perks (three people having UB and one having soulguard while the killer got a lone Thrill is about as lucky as you can get in this situation, I guess) and killers overcommitting on the one person who could give them a tour of the map because they so happen to main that killer and know exactly what they can and can't do it was at least not an experience as horrid as the previous.
Bottom line for me on the slugging is, if the counter is "just don't get downed then", it's not a counter. And in a game that is built around survs having three lives, it is a design feature that needs looking at.
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You base this essentially on the premise that "swf"="Hens and frens on escape streak". This is an untrue premise.
The proposed solution is, with all due respect, nonsense. Between a game policing people's hardware, privacy issues and the potential for serious abuse aside, this is just not practical.
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If it's a high enough number I could get behind this; to alleviate the most extreme cases (similar to how the eight kicks limit on gens is really only dealing with the most extreme cases of three genning).
If it's mostly about QoL I'd also say it FL saves would still have to be possible. - And it should be a per-surv basis; just because annoying Surv X is all about perma-blinding the killer Surv Y shouldn't be punished for Surv X's behaviour.
I'd say the charges on the FL would normally put that kinda limit on FLs naturally, but between various looting and recharge perks, I can see how it turns into more or less infinite FL, so an additional mechanic might make sense to ensure some kind of "hard cap" that used to be built in via charges.
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The biggest issue with the whole complex killer mechanics is, at this point, the sheer number. Just knowing about how a mechanic works isn't usually enough to actually deal with a killer. You also need to practise to actually make use of that knowledge. - And how many actual ingame hours does it take to accumulate one single hour of killer interaction with a specific killer? Several hundred, I'd say - for most killers anyhow. Not to mention the kind of disconnected interaction that comes with it is absolutely worthless when it comes to practising something.
Meanwhile, how many hours does it take a killer player to practise something killer specific for one hour? Exactly, one hour plus Qtimes and the non-interaction time during a match (which is what, about three minutes per match? so another fifteen-ish minutes?).
Add to that how matchmaking and MMR works and you get the really strange situation where a killer who has mastered a killer's mechanics will face survivors who have at best a basic understanding of how the killer power works in the vast majority of matches. On the other hand, the survivor with a rudimentary understanding of how to deal with a killer's power will go against killers who have mastered the killer's mechanics in almost all their matches.
Making it a killer-specific MMR for survs would probably alleviate that issue on surv side… but would likely lead to killers who have mastered a killer's skillset pretty much always going against the same handful of survivors.
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If it was at all possible to reliably jump into a locker instead of a down, sure.
But if the argument is "always stay close to lockers to force a locker grab instead of M1" then that's kinda like saying "well, to avoid getting shot in the foot, just hack it off."
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At this point let's just make it all-or-nothing:
As soon as it's down to 2 survs the killer can insta-sacrifice whoever they touch.
On the flip side: Exit gates are open instantly with a three-minute timer.
[This is not exactly serious - but tbh, it would at least avoid the slog of a match that has been decided within the first few minutes]
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@camping_site said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3862646#Comment_3862646
2-3 years back daily average players on Steam were around 60k, now it is half of that. So an arbitrary max hasn't been reached.
in July 2021 the daily average peak went beyond 60k on Steam. Which was shortly after the first Resident Evil Chapter was released and also coincided with the anniversary event. That one 60k is the outlier.
If we look at the year-to-year trend by month (as the playerbase fluctuates and has different averages depending on the time of year, with the highest daily avrg being around the anniversary event and the lowest daily avrg of a given year being at some time during the first quarter of that year) we see that there aren't really any surprises. The daily avrg hovers between 30k-ish and 40k-ish for the most part.
Overall, we can see that until mid 2020 dbd didn't get to the 30k at all; you remember what was going on in the world in 2020? You hazard a guess as to how that might have contributed to a sharp player increase around the anniversary event that year?
Since then the average player count has rarely dropped below 30k - and has rarely risen past 40k (especially if taking the lingering effect of the first RE chapter into account). So I suppose for Steam that is the somewhat stable (albeit fluctuating depending on the month) average daily player count and since it has remained like this for several years now, I do think it's reasonable to conclude this is also the max average player count that can be expected in the future - at least when it comes to Steam.What could lead to another sharp increase that is not just temporary (e.g. phenomenal event, outstanding chapter etc.)? If dbd can get a whole new region hooked, a playerbase that has previously been unable to play (idk we have xbox and ps, switch I hear is a pain but maybe if the switch experience was a lot better we would see more switch-players?), a license that sparks an interest in people who have never heard of dbd before or getting former players back (I'd say the number of inactive accounts with 1k hrs+ far exceeds the number of all active accounts) somehow (how? idk. Different game mode, maybe?). Do I think any of that is likely? No. (Hence my earlier comment that at the end of the day the game is meant to make money and you get the most money out of new players - and they don't actually need to stick around for too long to bring in a lot of money, ergo the devs/the company doesn't even need to have a vested interest in making many players years long supporters).
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There's a limit to how much a playerbase can grow. And I think dbd has the max playerbase it can have atm. - At this point it is about getting the most out of people showing a (short lived) interest in a game. Long time players bring in relatively little money, at least when it's OG stuff; everyone has more than enough shards to buy a new surv or cosmetic, the seasonal cosmetics will be there the next year and if you're a veteran you'll probably be around then as well and can just wait (or spend the occasional ten bucks if there's something you really like). It's the new players that buy a lot of DLCs and and stuff simply to be able to fully play the game. I bet the most DLCs are bought by players that have between 50 and 500 hours in the game.
If that's a good thing, I don't know. It's a business model - and since dbd is carrying Bhvr to the point where they can experiment with a number of games that by the looks of it absolutely tank, it seems to be a quite successful business model. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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tbh, I don't like too many licensed chapters (not as in the frequency at which they get released but the total number, regardless of over how many years they have been released) simply because perks are in a place where there are a number licensed perks that have a huge impact.
As someone who's played a lot and puts about 20€/year into the game - be that via DLCs, cosmetics or what have you - then that's fine. - But a new player who doesn't want to spend literal thousands of hours unlocking og charcters and wait for months until a licensed perk is in the shrine so that they can fully play the game will have to pay a significant amount of money - far more than the game is worth.
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Don't watch Tru - but I think KL recently did it, don't know how long it took him but it was first try. - Though iirc he did dodge lobbies (or at least one) when the name or profile basically admitted to being a cheater or sniper — which I think is fair, considering it's on stream.
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Oh! That explains why that one meg hid all game and was literally nowhere to be found even with everyone searching.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856859#Comment_3856859
If there is a timer the survivor can wait it out if they wish, if the hatch has spawned then the objective shifts from gens to hatch. But if there is no egc timer, no hatch has spawned and the survivor still avoids the gens then that is reportable as it doesn't progress the match. There is a big difference between egc timer and server end timer and sever ends after 1 hour. Slugging does progress the match as it has a bleed out timer similar to hook timer. The timer is longer but it's still a timer and it still progresses the match when that timer expires. It doesn't what way you try and swing it, survivors avoiding gens when hatch is not available is
Some might call it petty to slug for 4k but the fact that killers do this for a reason (4k and mori) and survivors try to deny it for no reason other than spite shows the survivor being way more petty imo. That's exactly why I keep 3rd survivor alive for as long as possible carry them around the map if need be because that last survivor is not only wasting my time, they are wasting their own time and the 3rd survivors time by hiding. Usually the 3rd survivor will get fed up and lead me to the 4th so I get the 4k and end the match. If a survivor wants to be petty and drag it out for the whole hour that's fine by me, but I'm not sure the 3rd survivor would appreciate being held in the match as a result.
I'm not trying to "swing" it. - It's really quite simple and straightforward? "It is reportable as it isn't progressing the match" — absolutely - but you do realise that it becomes reportable only once a certain time has passed without progressing the objective? Which also goes for both killer and surv? - Or are you seriously suggesting killers and survs run on different timers?
there is no such thing as "more petty" - just as there is no thing such as "more illegal". - But if there was I suppose your reaction would even top the survivor's one.
But hey, the way you express your thoughts already tells me all I need to know and am really glad this is just a game and not something actually important where I'd feel compelled to argue with you. So… I guess have a nice day? -
@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856477#Comment_3856477
It's not what I claim it's what the Devs have claimed many times lol. You can drag the match out as long as you want but every time a survivor does that I make it go to server end time which means both survivors get automatically sacrificed. You put yourself in a lose lose situation because killer gets the 4k regardless.
Also your goal as survivor is to escape. Do gens then escape. If hatch is available then goal is escape hatch. If no hatch has spawned the goal remains to do gens. Avoiding gens for a prolonged time is avoiding the objective and not progressing the game. This has been stated many times.
Well, since we already know that slugging a surv for the full duratrion isn't reportable for holding the game hostage or not progressing the match (there are hooks, you know) - then a surv is also not reportable for holding the game hostage or not progressing the match if they wait out said timer. After that the objective has changed; to progress the game they gotta look for hatch. If the killer finds the hatch first then the objective changes yet again - but again with a timer so that "taking the game hostage" is impossible (that's the primary purpose of egc).
The killer is petty when they go out of their way to slug for 4k. - Responding to that in an equally petty way by denying them the mori and the 4k-with-agency (dying to egc certainly isn't to the killer's credit) seems only fair. A kill by egc is even more free and less earned than an escape via hatch. I mean, sure, if it helps a killer player feel better about themselves they can tack than on their record and be all braggy and proud about a 4k but, eh.
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The perk you're talking about is leader - and it's literally in the description that it's meant to increase gate opening speed of a nearby survivor. That is time you as the person with the perk spend standing next to the gate, while on many occasions it'd be at least equally useful to head into the map to be there to take a hit for someone still in chase.
I'm also not entirely sure what you're trying to get at with not being able to patrol gates. Gates are not gens; you're not supposed to defend gates like you defend gens.
Absolutely with you on 2man gens max though; it's such a waste if there are three or four people on a gen and it doesn't happen to be the last one.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848085#Comment_3848085
No risk? Just stop it. Thrill can be removed from the match permanently within the first couple minutes of the game and then the killer is down a perk slot for the rest of the match.
If cleansing a totem takes 46 seconds it's effectively impossible to cleanse in the absolute overwhelming majority of matches meaning all the remaining totems are zero risk, full value. A hex is not meant to stay in the match for the full duration - the risk part comes from how long you gonna be able to use it / if it stays long enough to be sufficiently valuable.
(and counterforce doesn't change that either; it doesn't actually make it less effectively impossible to cleanse that first totem.) -
I came back for 2v8, enjoyed that one.... and idk, if that doubled down slowdown is where it's gonna be at then I'll probably just play even less of the regular game mode than before.
the whole "balanced around the top players " thing is all good and well but as long as there are killers that can interrupt cleansing every 40-ish seconds the perk and the associated builds are busted without justification.
Even if you have a swf with at least two players with counterforce simultaneously cleansing a hex totem so that at least one goes through that's two perk slots blocked and at least a minute of the match wasted. That's beyond op. It's making a killer more oppressive than a 3v1 at five gens *right at the beginning of the match* when killer is supposed to be weakest.
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Over the past I-don't-know-how-many-updates-at-this-point I noticed something of a pattern;
survivors tend to complain about mechanical, fixed aspects that won't change no matter how good or bad you or the other player is. Tbh, haven't played the ptb or release day, but if to get rid of the dog you need a) a teammate or b) a pallet, then both of these come with a problem. In SoloQ you don't have a teammate on hand in an absolute overwhelming number of situations (read: nearly always). Alright, so as a solo you can use a pallet. Given the overall reduction of pallets on maps and the increasingly ridiculous placement, finding a usable pallet a few minutes into the match tends to be pretty hard. No amount of skill will change that.
The responses (here too) tend to then go in the direction of "just don't get X" (in this case grabbed by the dog) or "it's so weak it doesn't matter lol". Both not addressing the actual criticism.
killers on the other hand tend to complain about how a killer is "just M1 because the power is useless", that the killer "feels clunky" and that "the killer is D tier at best" — nothing of that is tangible, which - at least to me - screams "I haven't figured out the power yet" aka these are first impressions of someone who has no clue how to use the killer yet and comes from a place where they have another killer figured out and now expect to just be there within a few hours on a new killer. That ain't how killers work.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844429#Comment_3844429
"all your ideas seem rather overpowered."
Isn't the point of this mode that *everyone* is overpowered? 🤨
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844444#Comment_3844444
"Skill issue" is not a valid criticism in a fun arcade mode where one side or the other can choose to push so hard, the other has no chance. Either this is the fun chill arcade mode or it's as sweaty as normal Pubs can be, pick one.
It's not a criticism at all, it's just an observation.
Even in a fun arcade game mode some people will have more of a hang of things than others and in 2v8 this goes both ways - as it should. As I said, more often than not the outcome in 2v8 is up to luck. If it isn't up to luck, then it's usually because the sides are grossly mismatched. Balancing out that gap would ruin all constellations where the gap isn't as pronounced.
Even in an arcade game mode someone who has no idea what they're doing and just does "anything" is absolutely not supposed to be on equal footing with people who have a very good idea of what they're doing. Arcade doesn't mean brain dead / player input is irrelevant.
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ngl, the more I see of 2v8 the more I think killers complaining about gen speeds is, in fact, a skill issue. (And since this is always tit for tat: the same goes for survs claiming gens are too close and it's impossible to get one done without getting pushed off)
No matter which killer pair I've run into, if they're decent when it comes to that killer's mechanics and have a good sense of how to build pressure (aka when to be where on the map, when to go for a chase and when to protect a gen) it's always been a pretty close call; and usually it came down to some timing luck. Be that a survivor being found at an unfortunate moment - or a killer checking gens in the wrong order by chance.
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It's a very mixed bag - But if you got two high mobility killers that have more than one shared braincell and survs that don't grasp the concept of spreading gens, then it's usually ggs. Nearly no hook stages until the last two gens - and then it'll usually end in a 7 or 8k.
On the other side of the spectrum you can have survs that know how to make killers run around the map, bonus points for it not being very high mobility killers and gens just fly by because they don't get interrupted nearly as often. That unlucky chap who gets chased last or who gets sandwiched at the exit gate? Tough luck but it's usually also the only 1-2kills the killers get, if they get any.
There's also a lot in between but for the most part it comes down to luck; which way the teams lean when it comes to the above.
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@Pelaan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843299#Comment_3843299
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843317#Comment_3843317
Rouge- same ######### different paint you'll never be happy
Hall- it addresses the major issue being able to let players go next on hook
… except it doesn't really address the issue.
It might address the major symptom; how the issue becomes visible in a match. Hence why I pointed to all the other ways that people use to go next also being a lot less. Deprived of their favourite way to go next, shouldn't there be at least some increase in the other ways to go next? The famous petty survs who quit at the smallest of inconveniences … don't seem to quit in 2v8; not via DC, not via running into the killer, not by otherwise getting themselves out of the match asap.
And I want to make it very clear: I don't think the lack of 4% plays no role whatsoever — but I also think that it's absolutely not the most important variable in the mix.
Personally, I don't care much if it stays or goes at this point - but removing it from regular game mode will hardly have an impact on match quality, I think. DCs might increase, players running into killers to go next might increase - and it won't fix any underlying issue and matches (esp. soloQ) will remain as miserable as they are now. -
@SuspiciousBrownie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843317#Comment_3843317
I wasn’t trying to draw any conclusions like that at all. The 4% just needs to go. Plain and simple. No reason for it to stay. I only brought up the removal of hook grabs because people will cry about them removing the fun but they have already removed several fun things for killers. So it should be totally fine to remove it
Fair enough. - Given the thread title I read the lack of a conclusion/argument as you adding to OP's ("2vs8 shows…" pointing to an evidence based argument). If it's just a personal opinion it's all fair. But you'll also have to live with someone on a agree-to-disagree-basis who goes "It should stay" ; neither of you would be right or wrong.
- But you saying "no reason for it to stay" does sound like you want to convince someone of your opinion. In which case you'd need to show why it should go; since it is in place it falls upon you (/anyone who wants to see it gone) to argue why it should be changed. So why does it "just need to go" and why is there "no reason for it to stay"? Why is it "totally fine to remove it"?
For the sake of argument: even if we assumed "something was taken from killer, now something has to be taken from surv" was a valid way to go about things - why the 4% and not something else?
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I play guide almost exclusively. idk why, guess I'm a masochist: gotta see the desaster coming, how gen after gen gets done and no one bothers to stop a second and think: are the last five gens maybe stacked right on top of each other?
Which is exactly what usually happened when the last, sometimes the last two gens, are near impossible to complete; in part because you can't even get to them (depending on the map). Alas, killers tend to catch on too, so if you're the only one who tries to have decent gen spread from the beginning - or you and someone else - then it's just you two who're dead very early and those gens are still not done cause they get interrupted all the time. I've given up trying to do that early and by now just hope that if everyone's rushing to five gen themselves there are enough hookstages to go around to still get the last one done smh. I try to get a tb and try to get some guide-stacks to smack into that last gen with someone else … and sometimes it works out.
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@SuspiciousBrownie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3842994#Comment_3842994
Unhook attempts need to go. They got rid of hook grabs.
@Pelaan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3842994#Comment_3842994
Doesn't excuse the fact that the game would be way healthier without it
It's neither quid pro quo; there are no hook grabs ergo no 4% either - nor is OP (or anyone) stating a fact when they say "2v8 shows us that 4% is bad for the game". I narrowed it down to the hook mechanic that works differently in that game mode. - But taking anything there and just using it as an argument for regular game mode isn't going to work. In that case we should also make UB basekit asap. - But we already know that that's a terrible idea (that PTB).
Wild idea: Maybe 2v8 as a game mode somehow addresses the root cause of why people want to go next asap? - Because there's a lot less afking, a lot less throwing, a lot less running into the killer to go next and a lot less screwing your teamies over in the process in general and also a lot less DCs.
— Which doesn't even mean that the change in the hook-stage-mechanic (including the removal of 4%) has nothing to do with it. Just that you can't just go and attribute the positive effects solely to there not being 4% and call it a day. It might very well be one variable. But is most definitely not the only one. -
you kinda forget that crucial bit where the cages work quite differently than hooks.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3841399#Comment_3841399
I full believe the chests were put in very intentionally to help killers.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3841308#Comment_3841308
I mean sure, you say this but my (of course) anecdotal experience doesn't really match this.
I find pretty much every match where team mates are prioritising chests, we lose and are lucky if anyone gets out. In an ideal scenario they save a toolbox to power through at the ideal time with the repair boost but in my experience they empty the toolbox as they get it, or they just outright leave it if it is brown one so that time was completely wasted.
Otherwise they get medkits which may help but often group heals are the far more efficient option, especially with medics (my preferred role as team mates go down so fast).
I had a team mate leave me caged to open a chest nearby, while we had one gen done with one closest to us at more than half. I am not exaggerating at all and while this is a particularly egregious example, the lack of any real MMR makes this kind of thing far more common than normal matches.
Can you do chests at the wrong time? Absolutely. - Does that mean people should never do chests? No. Does that mean opening chests always works against survs? Also no.
Can chests come in clutch? Absolutely. - Does that mean every chest has to be opened? No. Does that mean opening a chest is always a good idea? Also no.
It's nuanced. Making a blanket statement one way or the other just doesn't do the mechanic justice.
On the anecdotal evidence: The TBs I've found in various matches made the difference between us getting a gen- and losing anywhere between 5 and 10 hookstages to one crucial gen (usually the last - and sometimes that meant an 8E turning into a less-than-3-E).