Halloulle
Halloulle
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Hi. Person here who's essentially stopped playing dbd for good on the day the anniversary event dropped - cause not even that was remotely enjoyable (it also didn't get more enjoyable when friends did nag me to play a few rounds a few days later). I've been playing some other PvP games since and one of the things I noticed: they're not any less frustrating than dbd in the sense that you get stomped, you get rolled and you get utterly obliterated there too. You got people flaming you cause you're new and have no clue what you're doing but they don't know (though you don't get nearly as many of those there as you get with dbd). — Yet, that people rage quit there happens once in a blue moon (idk, once every five or six matches or something like that? Though there's more than five players involved in those pvp games).
Seeing that, I do think - now more than ever - it's entirely on the devs to let the current state persist and people essentially saying "just suck it up - if you don't you make it worse" in one way or the other miss the point. Though, I will agree that if a game remains in a state where people even feel compelled to say something that amounts to that there, then people should honestly just stop playing that game. Alas. Dbd is somewhat one of a kind so anyone looking for asym will have nowhere else to go. And that is how the current state can persist even though it's … less than ideal.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3960626#Comment_3960626
The reason I focused on the camera pan is because the game has not even started yet. There is no agency for either side, other than to take in what you see and use it to get your bearings. This is something that happens for every player every match. Of course not every camera pan is going to revel the exact same amount of information, but it gives you everything you need to have before you gain control. That information is not automatically digestable, and its value will impact people differently based on their ability to orient themselves, their ability to apply deductive reasoning to what they were shown to tell them what they weren't, and their familiarity with the maps and tiles themselves. Value will not always be 100%, but it is something that has core components that can be improved by anyone who wishes to. This is a fairly universal principle in games that dedication is rewarded by improvement, and that there are reasons to want to improve.
What I am saying is that no player who gets 0% from the intro is someone who actively utilizes it. Even someone playing maybe their third time will likely figure out something as simple as "The TR isn't active, so the killer is not right next to me." Whether people plateau, or how each component impacts their ability to digest this information personally, they are provided this equal information, the same as all parties, every game.
As for WoO, I know it's both. I actively run it even though I learned how to play without it. I just find it extremely convenient, like the contact list on my phone. But due to the contact list on my phone, I rarely remember phone numbers mentally, like I used to before it. It's both strong and convenient, but also dependence building due to not requiring that level of premapping tiles while routing.
I didn't say "people always", I said:
If people are alt tabbed out or looking at twitch chat during the camera pan, they wasted an opportunity the game actively gave them for this exact issue.Meaning that the people who specifically choose not to gain any information from what they are provided, they are knowingly starting at a disadvantage to anyone who does, and that they are acknowledging they opted out of their chance to do so. It's just a decision that has a consequence, regardless of how much or how little it ends up being.
I also just said by virtue of all survs spawning together already, the problem might already be taken care of between only one tile having to fulfil those criteria (which I have a feeling would likely be a dead zone edge-map-ish if the killer runs a hex build; otherwise literally any tile that doesn't have it's gen spawn and is two tiles away from the killer would work)Yes, you would have to create a forced dead zone on one area of the map, because that would be the only way to have no objectives spawn within a straight shot distance from one area. It would have to be a deadzone. That basically just makes a place where the survivors have to hold forward facing toward actual tiles that aren't just filler at best. You'd just be forcing a running start.
considering your high opinion of killers and their understanding of spawn logic;Where did I say anything about my opinion of killers on the subject? They vary wildly just as much as survivors do, and similarly many of them also don't even watch the camera pan. I've been saying the entire time it is something that both sides can utilize or not, to an even degree.
they shouldn't take long to deduce the collective surv spawn point and should thus be able to interrupt all gens near spawn well in time. And even if it takes them checking the map they should get there well before any gen is even close to getting finished.)They don't have enough time for multiple gens to get anywhere near finished before they have to have found someone. Because currently when you find 1, the other 3 have had all of that progress potential for free. It could be a little, it could be a lot, but interaction between the two sides had not yet started so it effectively becomes a starting handicap. That kind of thing affects the weight of time. Its why LP is so strong even with its low duration.
And : man. I wish I ran into killers like that. So far killers who basically spawned in front of me seemed to get off on it; nodding and humping after me essentially being two tap cause ######### just happened (especially Blights).Its just the state of the community unfortunately. There are still some good ones out there on both sides, we all know when we're one of em.
I was speaking about survivability which hinges on resources and knowing where those resources are "not in killer TR" is information - but not the information I was referring to.
As for WoO; I generally I agree with what you say about usefulness - but I also stand by what I said in my previous post; the opinion on WoO aside a perk should not be considered a fix to a game design issue (and it is a game design issue if a player of median skill cannot reasonably be expected to make use of what is, in theory, provided but can, in practise, only be utilised by a fraction of the players that can be in the same match; again, if it was a "high skill" vs "not high skill" thing and only those of "high skill" are matched with each other; fair, that's all a ok. - But that's not how matchmaking in dbd works).
"Similarly, if these considerations of micro time wastes are so important, why do people always dismiss everything from blade wipes to picking up and transporting?"
Is what I have been referring to with "people always".
A dead zone does not have to be forced all the time; the most likely scenario for that to happen is just a killer running a hex build because in addition to the gens the totems also block tiles. As I said; If the killer is not running a hex build plenty non dead zone tiles are also available - e.g. shack if it spawns without a gen. That being said: forcing a running start isn't even a bad thing, imo; it alleviates the killer side frustration of survs spawning on gens and getting right to work and also gives survs an opportunity to identify which part of the map they're in and which tiles are around them and which they traverse (incl. resources).
"Its as basic as tracking requirements for a killer, and ironically something that the killer player is probably mentally going over before gaining control as well (especially if running LP.)"
This, to me, sounded like this is what you consider natural/basic for killer players - which in turn read like having a pretty high opinion of them.
"Because currently when you find 1, the other 3 have had all of that progress potential for free."
See comment on running start. Plus; it does make it sound like the other three survs just … "appear" on gens far enough away to not be disrupted by the chase. If survs are far enough away to not be disrupted by the chase they spent quite a while running there. If survs didn't run far they will very likely get disrupted and looking at popular perks chances are those gens end up at zero sooner rather than later. Granted, if the killer has developed tunnel vision and completely ignores a gen being done right next to chase that might be different - but even then and even if those gens do get finished that killer now has three gen potential for free* cause several gens have been completed right next to each other).
*consider this tongue in cheek - couldn't help it. I find this whole "for free" stuff slightly irritating.
On the state of the community: agreed - though, tbh, I've found I rather just play something else where you don't have to search for decent people and it's like searching for needles in a haystack.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3958523#Comment_3958523
they need to know what kinda tile they are in and if any resource spawned in that tile - and which tiles are adjacent.
You can learn all of this during the camera pan on most maps. If you understand tile logic, you know which tiles can and can't spawn in certain areas, and even which ones can and can't spawn adjacent to them. As mentioned previously, this is a skill that can be improved over time, and is frequently utilized by better players. You can map out more of the trial than you think with deductive reasoning and visuals on a handful of tiles alone, which is a type of growth that perks like WoO prevent players from developing.
Even if they don't develop that skill, afforementioned WoO gives them the info for all of their nearby resources highlighted in bright yellow before they can even more their character. This is an avenue that every single player can improve on to at least a reasonable degree (being able to identify the tile you spawn on, seeing the surrounding tiles during the camera pan, and having a basic foundation on your relative location before gaining control) even if you can't go gigabrain and understand half the map in seconds. Its as basic as tracking requirements for a killer, and ironically something that the killer player is probably mentally going over before gaining control as well (especially if running LP.) If people are alt tabbed out or looking at twitch chat during the camera pan, they wasted an opportunity the game actively gave them for this exact issue.
Similarly, if these considerations of micro time wastes are so important, why do people always dismiss everything from blade wipes to picking up and transporting? Microwastes like that have been part of the game since day 1 for both sides, and the disorientating effect from procedural generation has always been a deliberate design decision, and it affects both sides evenly.
How would you propose for survivor spawn logic to work in a way that could accommodate that? I don't know the actual tile counts for each map, but I can't imagine the spawn logic working well with requiring 4 survivors to spawn near each other, but also 15+ seconds from a gen or totem spawn as well as away from the killer. Especially if the old spawn proximity bug resurfaced. I don't think maps like the game could remotely support that.
Spawning into TR is not alright (and does happen)I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I just want to see some egregiously silly examples like the last time it happened. It was awful but a lot of killers had a good sense of humor/sportsmanship about it and would give them a head start last time, though im sure the rampant tribalism has made that more rare if its happening again.
The camera pan can sometimes give you that info. Most often the info you get from the loading in camera is "aight. I'm in a tile that has walls." — anything beyond that we're talking about people who either have this game as a full time job - or pretend they have. My mental cut off point for "can you expect a player to reasonably do this" is if a player plays ~3-6 hours a week can they get a hang of that within a few months? No? Then it's something that might be possible among cracked and professional players but should not at all be the expectation of an average player / what the enjoyability of the game hinges on. (This might be different if the "average" player was actually seperate from the "cracked" player - but we know they are in one matchmaking pool)
If the community could at all make up their mind about WoO (it's kinda Schrödingers perk, isn't it? On the one hand it seems necessary for anyone who hasn't made dbd their life, on the other hand it's also a crutch that ought to be deleted cause it's op and gives unfair advantages) I'd say fair point. Alas. — Plus, didn't the community already arrive at the conclusion that a perk should not essentially be obligatory to make the game work for the average player/a perk is not a suitable fix for inadequate game design?
Apparently I'm not "people always" when it comes to other animations and the time they take - in fact I made no comment about it at all so I don't know why you bring it up as if it's a counter point to what I said. Please don't generalise to counter a point I didn't make.
As for how I propose spawn logic to work: You can have an opinion without having the solution at hand…? — That being said; map reworks aren't exactly uncommon so I don't think map tile limitations are an obstacle dev-side; just change the map if need be. (And yes, I am fully aware that it's not as easy as that; but the principle stands: it's not like the map has to remain exactly as it is). Additionally: I also just said by virtue of all survs spawning together already, the problem might already be taken care of between only one tile having to fulfil those criteria (which I have a feeling would likely be a dead zone edge-map-ish if the killer runs a hex build; otherwise literally any tile that doesn't have it's gen spawn and is two tiles away from the killer would work) two survs being less effective on one gen and the increased travel time for the other two survs to a gen that doesn't lead to a three gen/leads to all gens being halted as soon as chase is in one part of the map; which should happen sooner rather than later anyway - considering your high opinion of killers and their understanding of spawn logic; they shouldn't take long to deduce the collective surv spawn point and should thus be able to interrupt all gens near spawn well in time. And even if it takes them checking the map they should get there well before any gen is even close to getting finished.)
And : man. I wish I ran into killers like that. So far killers who basically spawned in front of me seemed to get off on it; nodding and humping after me essentially being two tap cause ######### just happened (especially Blights).
And one last note: OP originally complained about 10 seconds being way too little and led to way too early hooks. Though, the 15 seconds (which are rounded up because you usually can't run in a straight line/need to turn the camera) aren't all that far away from it. Make of that what you will. -
Spawning into TR is not alright (and does happen). - For those asking "so how long until a killer is allowed to chase you": look at it this way; for survivor to have any survivability they need to be semi aware of their surroundings; they need to know what kinda tile they are in and if any resource spawned in that tile - and which tiles are adjacent. The minimum time this takes is the time it takes to walk through one tile and into another. Let's say it takes 2 seconds to turn the camera initially to identify which tile you're in on spawn and start moving. While you usually can't run in a straight line except if you're in a dead zone, let's assume you can run through two tiles in a straight line. That's that's 8 seconds if you literally just run straight. Now to make that information usable you'll have to spot at least two vault/droppable items, let's say you're super quick and know where they can even spawn so it takes you a second. So, for a survivor to have any reasonable chance at surviving they need at least 11 seconds. Rather more, because usually you can't run in a straight line / you don't spawn into a tile that's at all usable.
That means any killer should take at least 15 seconds to find their first survivor.
Now, vice versa, survs should spawn neither on top of lit totems nor gens but always in a tile that has neither cause yes, it should also take them at least 10-15 seconds to get on a gen. (edit: though as far as survs are concerned; now that they all spawn together even if they spawn on top of a gen at least 2 of the survs should move several tiles away to start a gen - which takes a lot longer than 15 seconds so I suppose that issue is already essentially taken care of).
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this gotta be rage bait.
If it's actually serious: geez. Please find something good in your life in the real world that gives you a sense of happiness and purpose, sounds like you need it. Fingers crossed.
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@Munky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3958221#Comment_3958221
I'm telling you its because of age. The older you get the less you hear those low tones, its not as much about volume as it is about the tone that the lullaby is in.
ps: I'm a 66% escrape rate solo survivor… so its not like its a 'git gud' issue… ;) It's just purely the skin audio that completely F's me up in and out of chase.
The fact that many people have alrdy complained about this, probably also many younk fowks, says enough init?
If it was hearing it would be consistent - alas, there are situations where you can hear the lullaby just fine and can sort of tell movement based on the volume changes. And other occasions where the gradual sound increase is just not working properly; you have the ambiguous low hum where the lullaby is barely audible at 40-45m, then the low one where it could be anywhere - and then the last step is just missing until the thing is in the same tile as you - not to mention how the lullaby volume changes dramatically depending on which way the thing looks or what's in the way; some map items just seem to essentially block the sound.
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@MadDragon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955261#Comment_3955261
Again, comes with it being a competitive game. Doesn't help DBD is very unintuitive. And there's still plenty of people that goof off even past a few hundred hours in the game. The game is only as miserable as you make it for yourself. I get quick games aren't all that fun, but you're not getting downed by a Blight in 20 seconds and tunneled out every game. Even against a good Blight, you're rarely getting a game like that unless you're running into the killer on purpose. I'm not going to argue about edge cases.
I can tell you from having nearly 1k hours on survivor and over that on killer, people with that insane amount of hours aren't Gods, they're not on auto-pilot, and most of the time they play like an average player. The people quitting in my lobbies or throwing are usually the thousand hour survivors, too. Everyone fears the p100 8k hour survivor SWF but I'm 100% more afraid of the adepting Nic Cage with far less hours.
You can be goofy and be good at the game as well. Even while learning. JRM is a perfect, and funny, example of that.
Are you seriously suggesting that JRM is in any way shape or form representative? If the first person that comes to your mind when it comes to "not caring much and still having fun" is a pretty darn good 15k+ hours player who very, very solidly falls into that last group I mentioned, idk man.
But hey, I see you're very set in your opinion and I wasn't even looking for an argument, just throwing in my to cents on the matter. -
@MadDragon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955246#Comment_3955246
Any competitive game is like this. This hasn't been a party or casual type game for most of its life now.
I play with friend's who don't know survivor at all and we still have fun. We're not aiming to win (which I think is your issue) we're just playing the game and seeing what we can do, trying builds, learning together, and having some goofy times.
Most of your suggestions would just destroy the game at its core, too. The game needs to be more beginner friendly and maybe spice up the gameplay besides "touch gen for 90 seconds."
up to and from a certain point the "just for the sh and giggles" works. Up to a certain point no one in the match had a particularily good idea of what's going on or what the "best play" is. That's a lot of fun.
Past that it's pure misery for a good long while; you can't do sh and giggles if you get to move for twenty seconds per match. You can't try anything if you get to participate for all of thirty seconds. You can't learn that way either. — And if until that point you ever tried stuff and learned stuff with the intention to get better you will find yourself in that position before you're "done learning the essentials".
At some point, from what I gather a few thousand hours in, players tend to move past that; they know so much about the game they can get through the regular gameplay loop on autopilot and can, again, focus on the sh and giggles and create opportunities in that direction cause sure as hell the other side isn't going to give it to them cause chances are they know just as much and can see it coming from a mile away.
However, most players are stuck in that middle part, from what I see and hear. -
idk, I spent ~600k on a surv and got 8 cakes. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Don't think it depends on Killer vs Surv. There just aren't alot of cakes going around.
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@Senaxu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950563#Comment_3950563
Just to add some perspective from other PvP games: In League of Legends (by Riot Games), one of the most popular competitive games worldwide, the penalty system is even stricter. After multiple disconnections, you're required to actively sit through a low-priority queue timer before you can play again.
For example, if you receive a 25-minute queue penalty and leave the queue even 1 minute before it ends, the entire timer resets back to 25 minutes. It gets even harsher… if you're in queue and someone else fails to accept the match (which you have no control over), the timer still resets.
Switching accounts doesn’t bypass the penalty either… the punishment remains until it's fully served, even if that takes months.
So yes, while the DC system in DBD might feel harsh to some, other games enforce even more rigid systems to discourage quitting or negative behavior.
Ah, another reason never ever try League.
Then again, League is, at this point, a million dollar competitive business, no? Dbd is a buggy party game.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3945954#Comment_3945954
If you die so fast that you get penalty then I don't know. I played survivors, was tunneled a lot and didnt get a single one. And it was hard tunnel.
Are you sure you're quoting the right post? Because reading yours I don't get the impression you read mine.
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@Munky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3946087#Comment_3946087
Absolutely. But understand I have been playing since 2016, I have heard the "yeh right" argument about a 1000x at this point ;)… My point was, now that we can finally prove it, ppl are still sceptical… As if ppl can't have certain stats or just be generally good at the game.
To your question from memory, its not a hard question. I play 100% solo… so killers are almost always going to get their 2k. I just play smarter, with the better build, so I am usually the one escaping. Either through hatch as last survivor, or gate at 2k.
edit: I did post screenshots… scroll back up mate ;)
Screenshots prior to me asking in this thread? - That's what I meant. - If there are some prior to that: I don't see those o: Only see the one with Kate in the post in reply to mine.
That's another thing of the solo vs premade; premades usually don't care about "just making it out" and go the "all or none"-route via playing very altruistically and trying stuff you'd never attempt in SoloQ (which, imo, is why the difference between Solo and swf in stats isn't all that big. - It also makes sense from a playing pov; if you all die around the same time, no one has to hang around in spectator mode that much longer than everyone else —- and is also another aspects of the "casual surv" you asked about at some point)
personally, I used to have a higher escape rate in SoloQ than swf… but soloQ on the whole is not enjoyable so I stopped doing that -
@Munky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3945963#Comment_3945963
It's kinda funny that ppl are still gonna ask for proof, even tho its perfectly possible now… ppl will still not believe you :D
The thing you have to understand is that my build specifically, most killers will rarely, if ever chase. I hope I don't start a trend, even tho I'm pretty sure it alrdy is. I see many ppl use this build or a variation of it. and I hate chasing it myself. That is also why my longest chase time is so low. Cause I rarely get real chases.
Not quite getting the "even though" part. - Isn't this exactly the point; to be able to show what you do instead of going by feel/going "trust me bro" 😅 Like, you literally were the one bringing the proof into play so I was genuinely surprised that none of the screenshots shared in this thread were from you. - And as I said; beyond that I'm just super curious what your breakdown looks like, escape rate aside.
I think I like the fun side of WGLF+MfT too much… but I might try that build of yours to see how it goes. — Out of curiosity: what are the overall match results like? Like, how many kills does a killer usually get? (that's from memory so not really reliable, I'm aware, but maybe a general tendency?) -
@Munky said:
Well at least now I can prove to the nay-sayers that I have 60% escape rate in solos… I've been saying for years that 40% average is extremely low… They have been lying to us for so long. I refuse to believe the average survivor is THAT bad, cause I'm not even that good myself and I escape well over that… 40% or lower is what you would expect from a brand new player. And all the survivors I see in my killer lobbies have 3-8k hours on their steam profiles, so… Explain that one away, please :)
maybe I missed it - but I can't see the proof of that escape rate in this thread. - Maybe you shared it elsewhere? Care to take another screenshot and post here, cause I'm really curious about the recent (the 30 days one) total stats breakdown and perks breakdown 🤗
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@Neaxolotl said:
Yeah, it's cool to have the system, but banning people for being extremely bad isn't something great
idk but a killer using M2-into-M1* to bypass basekit bt doesn't strike me as a skill issue on the side of the unhooked survivor….
*I realise not all killers can do that - but that's beside the point; there are set ups where a killer can do that and that it's possible at all is all that matters in this context.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3944626#Comment_3944626
Both are frustrated players sure... but only one of them came on here to talk to fellow players and hopefully get useful advice to improve. The other just came here to scream into the void.
The first one is posing their message to other ppl to have a discussion. The other might as well just be graffiti on the wall. They said a rant to nobody and walked off.
"get useful advice on how to improve" — I think I said it in my post that you quoted: some people are alright with being bad - and bad players, too, should have enjoyable matches (regardless of why they are bad) and if they complain about matches being not enjoyable that is perfectly alright. If they complain that to them the balance seems off, that is also perfectly alright.
Not every opinion needs a discussion. - Granted, maybe the feedback category would have been better suited for OPs thread - but if it's so clearly a rant then everybody recognising it as such should also recognise that it's not about an objective discussion; because that's not what rants are about.
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the "show stats or shut up" (be it that direct or more on the indirect side) has always somewhat confused me.
So, let's say someone isn't very good at the game, be that because they are new or just want to chill and don't care much about getting better or whatever other reason. So what? Is it alright for them to have a terrible match experience?
Shouldn't the goal be that the game has a minimum requirement in terms of balance at all skill levels so that it's enjoyable at all skill levels? — Yes, determining at what skill level someone who doesn't have a good time at all is can help identify which skill levels should be looked at to see how the game can be balanced at those levels but that is somehow never where this goes. It somehow always goes straight to "git gut". (Serious side question: How do you even "git gut" facing a specific killer when you only see them 1-3 times per 100 matches? General map knowledge and stuff gets you only so far.)
Regardless of escape/kill rate; all I can say is that playing survivor is not fun, feels unrewarding and more like you're the mole in a game of whack a mole (and I only ever put up with it these days cause it's the only game everyone in the gaming-friend-group has in common). Haven't played killer in a good while but what I recall it was more and more common to land on the extremes; stomp or be stomped. Also not particularly enjoyable.
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That's pretty spot on. — And gawd, I hope it's not actually poor game philosophy cause in that case I suppose the chances of it changing is effectively zero.
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OP looks at it from a not-constructive angle; "I feel something negative so I want the other side to feel something negative too". That's not helpful.
That being said; while the devs cite agency and that's valid, I don't think there's any harm in giving killers the option to abandon once egc is triggered as a QoL and game health improvement. Because agency or not there's no reason to force either side to stick around when the match at that point is mostly about rubbing some salt into their wounds and kicking down.
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@Viciusaurus said:
I also miss earlier days of DbD, and not just for these changes, but also for a much smaller killer roster, where powers were way simpler and you could get a feel for them quickly. Yes, there was a LOT of abusable builds, but it worked for both sides, and the perk variety was good enough the even silly builds could come out on top. There was typically a lot more variety because nothing had been nerfed to the ground yet, and thus allowed for mpre unique playstyles.
Yeah, the insane number of killers and powers and all to keep track of is something that I find as well and that I get the impression not all that many people have on their radar as a cause for matches not being enjoyable as surv. There are certain popular killers that you see often enough to actually get a hang of. - But most others? Nah, how am I supposed to develop a feeling for a killer when I seem them once every other month? (might actually be a reason why I liked the first two or three iterations of 2v8 so much as well; got rolled? All good, try to do sth else when you're in that situation next game; because chances are you'll see the same killer again)
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3933067#Comment_3933067
Unless today's update changed something, it practically never tells me when I earn 5 Fragments.
In the bug thread, JocelynAwakens says that players are rewarded 5 Fragments for earning 500 XP in trials. It sounds like it's supposed to be cumulative, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's bugged and it's on a per-trial basis rather than cumulative. Has anyone tested and made sure it is rewarding Fragments based on XP cumulatively?
Yep, it does reward the 5 fragments comulatively for me - but only shows the five fragments if I also complete a quest in the trial (i.e. for the daily that coincided with a 500xp step i got 20 fragments). Otherwise they only show in the rift pass progress.
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People want to see videos where you fulfill your goal.
If your goal is solely winning and that's what your content is and that's what people expect, then yes.If the goal of the video is to show your journey toward a goal (idk, winning with a specific build or on a specific map or something) then you just need to win the last match in the video; all the "losses" before might be losses gameplay wise but are "steps in the progress" goal-wise but as long as the footage is interesting (i.e. selected having that overarching goal in mind) people will stick around. Arguably, the later the overarching goal is achieved in the video the more interesting it is (that's even true for videos in which winning the match is the sole goal; the later the win is secured the better; the back and forth of hooks and unhooks are the steps in the progress there).
If the goal is to just be entertaining than it doesn't matter if you're winning (and you wouldn't even necessarily include the match results). You'd select footage that you deem entertaining. — Now, again, if your audience is expecting winning instead of entertainment that might drive some away (but in turn might attract those that are looking for entertainment). -
I used to main Nemesis (cause the first time just a few hours into playing dbd I hated going against him as surv — and I continue to hate going against him).
As for un-countarability … I haven't really played much in a long time, only played Nemo a handful of times since the tentacle changes so take this with a grain of salt. Nemo's biggest issue was - and still is - map mobility. Not mobility in chase (chase potential was already pretty darn good once you got a hang of M2) but to traverse the map. Plus: T-1 Thanos isn't doing sh*. So if you verse a team that knows this and a) just predrops those first pallets (and let's be honest no need to hold back there; once Nemo hits T2 it doesn't matter how safe the pallet, it's usually gonna be a 50:50 for the surv at best and in T3 no pallet is worth anything anymore) and gives you a tour of the map while staying on safe loops and b) once you do hit T2 makes sure to split and always take chase into the area of the map where gens have already been completed, forcing you to run across the whole map the whole time you're in for a pretty rough time (though only few survivors know either of those two things / play accordingly). — Nemo still has quite the snowballing potential, especially if you have good tile-knowledge (i.e. know where to "herd" the surv for guaranteed hits sooner rather than later + the bs tentacle-drag hits + knowing what you can hit over even though it looks like you can't). But the long maps are still pretty rough (though they often come with 4 or even 5 gens close together on one side so if you just never leave that side it's also well winnable - just really tedious and imo not worth the effort cause it's tedious af and at least I don't like playing gen-protector).
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@LockerLurk said:
How would they fix this? It has to do with the player's connection, they can't make everyone get better internet…
this gotta be missing the */s
In case that's actually not a sarcastic but serious comment: dbd sometimes send all players in a lobby to the wrong server. Sometimes all-EU ends up on UK - which is still alright. But sometimes on US East. Or Asia. Which sucks.
Add to that generally poor area coverage; why tf does the Middle East not have a sort-of-southern-ish located server? Why tf does EU get Qatar or UAE players? It's not their fault but it sure as hell ruins the match.
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@XDgamer018 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/445679/2v8-is-even-worse
so you want to ruin 2v8 gotcha there is a reason why mft was nerfed in the basegame. and oni cant be perma undetectable since that goes away after you injure/down a survivor. while yes i agree that legion was a mistake all i hear is survivors cry about oni when you can just pre drop pallets and rebuild them keep in mind at most 2 survivors can be chased wich means 6 other survivors can smash gens
"just predrop pallets" and "six survivors can smash gens" only works in theory. If you predrop pallets you move about the map pretty darn fast, inevitably chasing people off gens frequently. Especially against Oni these people will go further (at least out of aura read range) and return later to not gift free hits. So in effect you have two people in chase predropping, four people moving because they have been chased off various gens - and two people actually doing gens. That is, as long as no one's caged.
"Just predrop pallet and rebuild them" also only works in theory. You can't rebuild pallets as fast as they're used.
On OP: Fully agree that survivor gameplay is lacking inspiration. The first two iterations were basically glorious chaos in an arcade mode. Which was great. - Now more and more tedious parts are added; mending simulator, extra-time sinks in the form of vaccines/sprays, ultra-mobility killers turning quite a few matches into walking simulators cause with all the auto-aura read staying in the area is just plain stupid (especially with the insta-down killers… )
(Edit: And I say that with my escape rate basically not having changed much. - It just takes longer to complete a match and the match itself feels more and more like a chore) -
It does feel like something about the cage respawn has changed; there's significantly less of it, even if a killer is pretty close and no survivor is (there are a few trappers who seem to get a kick out of trapping a cage and going back and forth between that cage and the closest 2-3 gens. — And I do feel the time it takes to approach the cage with a trap, place and sometimes replace the trap and leave the caged area again should be more than long enough to trigger a respawn).
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Few things in here, some I agree with - some I don't.
"But I also have a bit of an issue about how it undermines the killer’s experience. You play well, snowball the match, and suddenly the survivors throw themselves at you just to force an early end. […] if you play well and efficiently it kind of builds toward something, but this system cuts that short the moment survivors are losing. It reeks of entitlement…"
That's one of the bits where I kinda get where you're coming from but where I also feel compelled to say that the "something" that's being built toward is "power tripping". It's not about forcing an early end or entitlement, it's about not being forced to be a punching bag when the match is already decided. That extra kick a killer can get out of dominating and kicking down is at the expense of the human beings on the other side - and it's even because it's actual human beings on the other side. Cause otherwise you'd get the same kick out of dominating bots.
Now, that being said; yes, I do think a forfeit option would do a better job in this regard (swiftly ending a match that, in the eyes of the players in the match, has already been decided) - for both sides. Cause yes, a killer player, too can end up feeling like a punching bag and atm there's quite the double standard when it comes to that.
And lastly:
The issue with matches not counting as a draw is MMR (tbh, I think the killer abandoning should also count as a draw MMR wise); if it resulted in MMR loss people would just forfeit/abandon left and right to de-rank. But iirc MMR is supposed to be changed again and I also suppose there are ways to mitigate that effect (max MMR loss per day/week from abandoning/forfeiting, e.g.)
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I used to just unlock the auric-part of the pass right away, being pretty sure I could get my 1k cells back — if need be by grinding a little during one or two weekends toward the end and occasionally going 'mhm, there's still the rift, so let's play some dbd' when considering what to play.
This time around I squinted at the quests and the pass and went "nah, probably ain't gonna happen". — Which also results in me going "eh, let's play sth else".
The rift pass is not some kind of loyalty program where only the dedicated minority gets something out of it but something to keep the broad, casual player base engaged. Or that's what I thought.
If bhvr still wants to go that direction (kinda doubt it, tbh): Warframe, e.g. has something similar to a Rift (called Nightwave there) and while there are Dailies and Weeklies - once you have done the current Daily/Weekly, an old Daily/Weekly will be recovered.
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mhm. Well. Yeah. I suppose yet another reason to not play anymore. Like, them Rift cosmetics were one of the few things left that made me log in every now and again to get through the rift - and with the event tomes and regular match progress counting toward Rift progress, I never had trouble clearing the rift (even when I only played on a handful of days a month - or didn't play for a month or two at all).
Ah well. I suppose it's another step into the direction of unethical business practises that exploit the most vulnerable (the first one being the seasonal fomo cosmetics; for the vast majority of players that's not an issue - but it is an issue for those with a predisposition for addiction or manipulation and that are proven to be considered the golden geese and main target group of, e.g. highly unethical gacha-games and fomo-tactics). Tbh, I'm sorry for the bhvr dev team / the parts of the dev team that have little to do with the markgeting and business aspects. - It's, I suppose, a result of that company that used to produce mobile DBD, having bought parts of bhvr iirc.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3922054#Comment_3922054
If the game is effectively over, why does BHVR need the Killer player to stick around.
Once the last Survivor standing is downed, just automatically start the endgame mori.
Wasn't that how it went during that PTB where they first had the finisher moris? Wasn't the consensus that while mechanic was nice to wrap matches up more quickly, it led to, and incentivised, a slug-all-four-asap playstyle? - If all survs are bots, the killer can leave too to end the match. The killer just doesn't get the mori.
For all I care once the sacrificing hook animation / the mori has started to play, survs can leave without it counting as abandon (meaning it counting as if they had stayed). - And likewise the killer can just leave without it counting as abandon once all survs are in the exit gate area and also once the last sacrifice animation started playing (i.e. when they hook the last surv standing and no surv can take 4% anymore). -
In both cases the match was effectively over already and you had won. What is the purpose of "waiting it out"?
(This is not directly addressed at OP but more of a general thing - it may or may not apply to OP but I think it's kinda relevant:
I kinda get it; it's kinda in human nature to want to kick down and humiliate the less powerful side and go on a power-trip, stroking out egos - and to then bathe in that feeling of being oh-so-generous by not dealing the killing blow after all. It's something humans get a kick out of. We see it all the time in movies and take part in it in games - and in PvE games that's all good and dandy. But in PvP games there are actual human beings on the other side - anynomised and for their fellow players by default de-humanised by virtue of anonymity and lack of physical presence but that doesn't make them any less human and I think it's important to remember that and not give in to this idk, darker side of primal human nature.)
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Overall, I think it goes something like this:
player remembers the most fun times they had playing survivor in the past and decides to Q.player loads into the match and realises real fast that a) they are up against a killer/are on a map where their very bad experience absolutely trump any good experience they might have had or b) the match they are in now is not just one of those fun times but actually reminding them of all the bad times they had playing the game.
player nopes out.
player remembers the most fun times they had playing survivor in the past and decides to Q again - because maybe this time it's different.
Repeat.
The thing is; that "maybe this time it's different" works just often enough to keep trying - while the vast majority of matches are, for one or the other reason, still miserable. A lot of it has to do with the changes over the past 2-3 years - a lot of it has to do with fatigue and addiction (addiction to luck-based gambling; trust, next time it's gonna be a win) and a lot of it has to do with a certain kind of unpredictability and the resulting chronic lack of preparedness; outside the most meta perks having a surv build that doesn't match the killer/killer's playing style is the rule, not the exception.
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For those asking about the difference between the hook animation and the finisher mori animation: one's 3rd person, the other is 1st person. That makes a huge difference (cf probably any paper about how the [narrative] perspective influences us).
I for one am sick of both and wouldn't mind if you could just leave as soon as there is no keyboard-input for you anymore . It changes absolutely zero about the game outcome just removes one of those irking instances. - And yes, a surv leaving in that way just skips the animation, so they are still counted as dead and are not replaced by a bot.
(though, I'd also say a killer should be able to abandon once the exit gates are open — and should have the option to just dip when all survs are in an exit gate and that being treated as though the survs left - here too, that would be counted as if the killer had waited out the timer.)
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… Won't this like totally skew any future stats on kill/escape rates? Since none of the matches are considered completed and arguably the vast majority of survs DCs to skip the finisher Mori?
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Actually, yes, once the gates opened I don't see why killers shouldn't be able to abandon, similar to how when all remaining survs are downed. - Not before the gates are opened though; it's easy enough to open them yourself as killer. No point in having to wait the timer out when survs just don't want to leave. Yes, you can push them out if they're just hanging out in the gate - but now that there's the abandon feature that looks like the best option.
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even stacked BNP or syringes can't keep up with a killer that is decent or better at camping and/or tunneling. Anti-tunnel/camp perks get rarely thrown in for survivors (just a matter of statistics) so anyone who wants to can use and abuse these core mechanics to their heart's content. - Which is exactly what happened ever since the second iteration of the mod.
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61% killrate is actually slightly over-performing. Devs aim for 60.
That aside, just glanced over some of those suggestions - and maybe you rather want to play some PvE looter-shooter; people don't sign up to spend their time cosplaying as a pinata for someone on a power trip.
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Sounds to me like you want to stun-lock survivors so that the killer essentially gets a guaranteed hit.
I suppose the scenario you have in mind is one where one survivor is on hook, the killer is camping them, there's a gate nearby and one far away and the three other survivors just keep pressuring the close gate (let's assume for a second that is as easy as it sounds) then yes, I can see how this might alleviate the stress the killer player feels in that situation.
But that is one situation.
What about all the times, where gates a rather close or the killer is a high-mobility killer. The second a surv touched a gate and coulodn't open it all in one go that gate effectively becomes impossible to open. Any surv going there and getting stunned will get hit.
The exit gates aren't there for the killer to build immense pressure; that's the gen-gameplay. The gates are there to wrap the match up. Either side can make a last-ditch-effort to score one more point but it should never be possible to completely turn the tables (with the exception of dedicated egc builds — which I also view highly critical precisely because of their table-turning-nature at a point during the match where that should not be possible anymore).
As an example, how would you address a situation where both gates are top-side when there's a high mobility killer who can get from one gate to the other within the stun duration + two seconds. How would survivors ever open either of those gates?
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Last time I did post 2v8, I did not. So I stopped. Took a look at Kaneki PTB for 2-3 matches but that's it. Don't plan on coming back anytime soon. - Maybe when the Health Phase One things are fully implemented (sometime between April and June they said?) - but tbh, not holding my breath.
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Hatch is a mechanism that serves two purposes:
- To avoid the last survivor and the killer being trapped in an endless game of hide and seek (at that point it is entirely unreasonable to expect the survivor to touch, let alone complete, gens ; they might just as well spam-vault something to just get the match over with)
- To keep the survivor engaged throughout the match ("Well, this game sucks - but at least there's still hatch maybe")
It is really important to separate the generator-game from the hatch-game though - because it's two different things.
Once there's only one survivor left, the objective of the match changes (at this point the killer has already won the match overall); the match turns into a 1v1 minigame and the win-condition is finding hatch. Whoever finds the hatch first wins the 1v1-minigame — which is inconsequential for the overall match outcome; it's considered a draw for that one survivor (In dbd it's not "Team surv" vs "Team killer" and team surv happens to have four people while time killer has only one person. It's 4x1v1; Killer vs Surv1, Killer vs Surv2, Killer vs Surv3, Killer vs Surv4; if the last surv gets hatch, the Killer has won three times, and had a draw one time). Plus, during the minigame the killer has the advantage; they move faster, usually have a higher PoV (can see over more stuff) and they don't have to evade the other player - so it's really not "free".
It also shouldn't be a problem that this is how it is - alas, I suppose because it's so frequent it is. Or is at least perceived as one.
Somewhere along the way "close matches" have become the exception; most matches are decided within the first two or three minutes. So how do you make players stick around and keep trying even though the match is lost already? - Killers have this as basekit; they basically all have snowball potential. It's somewhat up to luck but a killer can keep going with the thought "well, if I manage to snowball I might actually at least draw!". The survivor doesn't have that; there is no "snowballing generators" - it's actually the opposite for surv; however bad it is, as the match continues it's only gonna get worse. So why on earth would they stick around or keep trying? So there's hatch.
Granted, hatch has that selfish element (only one surv can get it and if a match is essentially decided two minutes in and it isn't looking good, why wouldn't you prepare for Hatch at that point?) - but given that the survivors aren't actually on one team but are individual players with individual scores that just happen to share the same objective (according to the devs, actually) it's actually completely legitimate.
If Hatch were to go a change (/changes) to the base game mechanics / gameplay loop would have to be made. - The easiest option that comes to my mind would be a concede button along the lines of; if the number of unfinished generators exceeds the number of survivors, the survivors can concede and end the match. (Maybe slap a condition on top that this option only becomes available after five minutes or something. — And for all I care give the Killer a concede button too; if the number of gens completed multiplied by two exceeds the hookstages the killer has, they can concede. Again with the five minute condition.) — I do not expect this to actually change match outcomes at all - but I do expect this to really underline how soon matches are actually lost and that there is an underlying problem. People like close matches - but only few matches are close. People do not like playing out a match where the outcome is already (near) certain (especially when they're on the losing side) - but this is how most matches go.
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@kommandantlocke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3897214#Comment_3897214
thatd be interesting actually limit heals may prevent long games entirely
You'd have to do something about hit-and-run then though; there are quite a few killers for who it's incredibly easy to get that first hit and this game is designed around having two health states, not one.
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Ever since the 8-kick limit I've kinda been on a mission to try and force it whenever it remotely looked like there was a chance. I think so far I've never managed to force it. — Which tells me two things: 1) it achieves what it set out to achieve: that killers stop being hellbent on keeping a three gen. 2) That killer's don't need three gens cause otherwise it's impossible to win - because as far as I know killrates haven't dropped.
Should some perks / gen placements get a look at to prevent a jolt-eruption-overcharge-nth build from becoming useless if you happened to down several survivors in the same area? Sure, that might make sense. It's one thing to go out of your way to protect that gen and another if it's out of your hands cause "things in the match just happened to happen in that area". Tbh though, spreading gens would do wonders there.
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@Dwight_Fairfield said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3896421#Comment_3896421
No you're acting like there's a very restricted time frame to do it, and that you need a load of meta perks in order to escape a match. You can escape a match without relying on the meta and you have plenty of time to do these tomes. They do up be up for months.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree. I think you're making something out of nothing. I know solo queue is no picnic but it's not difficult by any stretch of the imagination to play normally and escape.
I have said none of these things, though. All I've done is point out how the devs' choices incentivise this behaviour, what the conesequence should be (not putting these challenges there) and that holding players accountable for what the devs decide, is misguided. - I've not once said what I think of people who do play that way.
But yes, let's agree to disagree, we do clearly have mututally exclusive views on the matter. -
@Dwight_Fairfield said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3896267#Comment_3896267
You're acting like players have 24 hours or something to do these challenges. What difference does it make if you're locked into a character. Survivors are just skins.
No, I'm acting like this is a game where people want to spend time doing what they enjoy with the skin they enjoy and want to get the stuff that they just do to get a challenge (to get the points from it) out of the way asap. And it's precisely because most people don't have a lot of time to complete the rift that they want to get it over with quickly — especially if it forces them to play a character that they don't usually play, don't have the skins they like on and might not have all the perks they like unlocked on as well.
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@Dwight_Fairfield said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3896174#Comment_3896174
I don't buy into that logic. When you have the free will choice to do something in a wholesome way or a rat way and you opt for the rat way then that's a player issue. It's as simple as that. The challenge can be done without screwing your team over.
it's not about rat or not; it's about how to get over with it asap. And I don't blame the player for that but bhvr. (I forgot earlier; but you're also locked into a specific character for that and one big part of survivor is playing with the skins/outfits you like) — Overall, it's really just … not smart dev-vise to do it that way. It falls into the same category as "hook all four survs in the basement"-challenges. They're just unhealthy. There's no upside to it. Devs should not make players have two conflicting interests ("being a good sport" vs "getting the challenge done efficiently" ; this should never be mutually exclusive. It should always go in tandem).
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@Dwight_Fairfield said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3895952#Comment_3895952
Whether its a daily or a tome challenge, you're getting a reward for doing it. But that's not the point at all. You can do it without playing like a rat. The problem is not the challenge, its the player that chooses to do it that way. That's the point. If someone opts to screw over their team to do a challenge then that's a player issue.
No, it's a bhvr issue for putting a challenge that happens once in a blue moon on a specific character and putting a time limit on it. Holding players accountable for something devs put there is unreasonable. Hold the devs accountable; these challenges should not be there.
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@Dwight_Fairfield said:
I mean there's dailys that require you to escape as certain survivors. People who choose to do these kinds of tasks with rat builds are the problem. Not the challenge itself.
Comparing Dailies and Challenges is comparing apples to oranges; you can just skip dailies and get a new/different one, you don't get *rift fragments from dailies and you don't need a daily to progress through a set that has to be completed within limited time and comes with special rewards (Rift). 8 Rift fragments are nothing to scoff at. So nah, these challenges should not exist in the Archive except as "bonus nodes" that only give you BP and unlock stories (cause that doesn't go away after the rift is closed).
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Well, it might treat the cases where going next is the problem rather than a symptom. - Let's see how much of an effect that actually has and if match quality (with fun as the criterion and the measurement being how much people play, and especially queue up again).
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Tbh, the only way the described form of anxiety can be removed is if killers are guaranteed to stomp if they want to. And that doesn't ring healthy to me.
That degree of anxiety is down to expectation management - and in part that's the players (if you have the mindset "but killer is the power role" and expect matches to go accordingly you'll be disappointed. A lot.) and in part that's bhvr (because they do like to sell the idea of killer as the dominating power role).
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Tbh, at this point, I would be kinda curious to see what happens if the DC penalty gets upped and ways to "go next" are entirely removed — just to see how much of a negative impact that's gonna have.
I'm very convinced whatever positive it might have will be more than negated by the negatives that come with it. I mean, you can't have it both ways; you can't have a "go next epidemic" implying it's incredibly widespread, and then also think that many people do that just out of sheer pettiness and will just go to being good little punching bags that suck it up and play all matches out normally from then on out. Heck, I almost hope it'd lead to a massive (surv) player bleed cause that's probably the only datapoint that weighs heavy enough to prompt actual change.
you know how the saying goes; sometimes you gotta burn it all down and start from scratch. Well, maybe not that extreme, I don't think there's gonna be a DBD2 — but some major changes to core gameplay/mechanic design.