Firellius
Firellius
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- Firellius
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It's a fun perk, but its over-reliance on RNG makes it the second worst perk in the game, as it's more helpful to the user's opponent, than the user themselves in almost all cases.
I think you need to get five skillchecks in order to get Autodidact to offer a net benefit, and it'll only give 5% total, one tenth of Botany.
Autodidact needs to either award a token on completing a heal, or, on cooldown, be able to summon a skillcheck on demand to counteract the RNG dependency.
I've tried running it with FTP so I can avoid screwing over my teammate, but (vent mode engaged) every healing perk you take increases the likelihood of going up against Plague by 50%.
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The only one I'm interested in is the silent vaulting perk, the rest seem really rather pointless, IMO.
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The last 'health' chapter made the game considerably worse, though...
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@Count_Dooki said:
With all due respect I do not think this is good for the games health. Penalizing killers for tunneling even more will not stop them. Giving survivors more freebies for making mistakes will not help the situation either.
Can hardly call it a freebie when it costs a hook state to use.
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@Nazzzak said:
Perhaps killer mains are more likely to complete survivor challenges after doing their own, while survivor mains are less likely to cross over and complete killer challenges? That might be why they make the killer ones simpler?
I think it's more that killer challenges are in line of normal gameplay, whereas survivor challenges are outside the line of normal gameplay and sometimes even require soft-throwing. But one survivor messing up like that used to not be too big of a deal if the killer wasn't hard-sweating, so they were mostly acceptable. Yeah, you'll probably just give the killer a free down with that broken ankles challenge, but one free down isn't that big of a deal.
Or wasn't, rather.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3356448#Comment_3356448
Nah, its a good thing YOU are not in charge on balance..
Oh I was not insinuating that, Its clearly possible you like to play Killer like a Robot.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3356510#Comment_3356510
Untrue! you told us in your comment:
Guess I just shouldn't have tried to take the BT hit.
That IS an unsafe play. Sorry if you don't like that actions get you killed, but that's the way DbD is.
That IS an unsafe play. Sorry if you don't like that actions get you killed, but that's the way DbD is.
Read his entire post, it's blatantly obvious he's being sarcastic.
Pre 6.1 DS was the most healthy perk the game's ever had, dude. Just because you can't stop yourself from faceplanting into it doesn't mean the perk is a problem.
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@Trollinmon said:
The replacement for ds is otr. On nightlight.gg it shows otr being ran 10% of the time and the stats for 6.1 changes had ds at 50%. So players are complaining about tunneling being stronger while not running the perk that is designed for that purpose. It's pretty glaring that otr is not a sufficient perk at punishing tunneling. The solution to this is make otr actually punish tunneling and see where that goes.
That's because OTR, the alleged new anti-tunnel perk, is, itself, hard-countered by tunnelling. If you get slapped during the basekit BT, OTR gets disabled.
The move from DS to OTR was an absolutely terrible one, as it's worse on both sides. OTR is significantly weaker against both tunnelling and camping, but it's better at punishing killers who do not use those methods. It's a double whammy of failure.
My suggestion: A survivor that's pulled off the hook gets 60 seconds of 'Desperation', which removes collision with the killer. Desperation is immediately removed upon performing a conspicuous action. If a survivor is picked up by the killer while they have Desperation, they stun the killer for 3 seconds, and Desperation is removed.
Then: DS increases the duration of the stun from 3 to 6 seconds.
OTR: Reworked. Now, instead of granting endurance, it instead removes scratch marks, grunts of pain, pools of blood, and blocks aura reading. Total information black-out.
That way, there's innate anti-tunnel, it can't be used offensively, DS goes back to being useful, and OTR gets to be a higher risk, higher reward anti-tunnel perk.
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I'm just imagining four survivors all with terror radii, chasing the killer around as the quadruple heartbeat just drives them insane.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3356031#Comment_3356031
When you get unhooked in solo queue with no choice to stop it happening and then the killer hard tunnels you and your teammates don't take the hit 🥰🥰
Guess I just shouldn't have tried to take the BT hit.
Why punish one survivor for the mistakes of the other? There should be a system in play to punish the unhooker for a terrible unhook, instead of allowing the unhooker to get away scot free with their mistake at the expense of someone else who had no say in the matter.
Or when the killer slaps the unhooker and then ignores them to go after you anyway.
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@Hi_Im_Chucky said:
Well…the first step is to stop calling the DH changes a Nerf. They changed how you use the perk, it kept its strength. A real nerf means the perk got either ruined or brought down to similar strength as other exhaustion perks and people actually had to decide to drop it or use it less.
Again, this was just a change, people still know it’s broken so they will continue to use it.
If this was a Killer perk it would have been fixed or gutted within 3 months but you might as well buckle in because BHVR not taking away Survivors favorite toy. It’s why the changes were not a nerf to begin with and why this perk will not be touched again for a long while.
I mean, if DH's output was the same as that of other exhaustion perks, there would be literally no reason to use it, since it's by far the hardest to use, and it's the only one that can fail.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3355659#Comment_3355659
Which is so much different than what they are doing currently...
Oh wait...
Yes, it is. Any time someone manages to wriggle off, it's because the killer doesn't know the wiggle progress. Giving them that would make wiggling fully and completely pointless instead of just mostly pointless.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352105#Comment_3352105
Wiggle progress bar and hook stages per survivor instead of the vague counter would be a start for QoL HUD changes for killers.
Also, why would the gen progress be to much value for the killer, but not for survivors?
Absolutely no wiggle progress bar, killers would just drop you and leave you slugged if they -knew- they couldn't make it to a hook anymore.
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@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3354759#Comment_3354759
did i denied that was nerfed? i don't remember to say that it wasn't, i said that it was reworked since they only decreased the % of effectiviness of the perk, not completely erase/nullified the utility/purpose of the perk (aka gutting)... i said that it was modified for the simple reasons that i stated above, so don't put words into my mouth that i didn't say thanks
The examples that i stated above were just examples of broken stuff that were rightfully fixed during those years, don't you understand?... if we wanna be picky then even those had a counter: stealth plays (he can't mori you on the spot if he's unable to put you in the dying state) and escape through the hatch/exit gates (the latter was for noed) but they were nerfed for RIGHTFULLY REASONS... the point is that DS was easily abusable even if you claimed that counters existed, not to mention that the time wasted in order to counter it was more than sufficient for giving advantage to your team: shall i remember to you the times that survivors forced it through lockers on purpose in order to waste the killer's time? should i remember to you that they could pick up themself thanks to unbrekable? Please, this isn't a anti tunneling perk, this is another 2nd chance for correcting bad plays, even now that it was tweaked several times (i'll tell you my personal anedocte: i was hitted by that perk when i was playing as legion without tunneling and camping and guess what? I couldn't kill anyone partially for all the 2nd chances that they used aganist me and partially because i played "fair" until the end despite they didn't deserve it... anyway the point is that i was hitted by that perk WITHOUT DESERVING IT and the times that they got from it allowed them to a full team escape... this is how much "weak" that perk becomes after all the tweaks received). You call me biased when you are the one that is refusing to see the issues of the game it seems
a SMALL reduced cooldown of the main weapon won't do literally nothing for those killers, especially if we wanna look at the awful state of the maps... try to land a hatchet in the badham school right after hitting someone with a m1, try to do the same thing in a map like the game, lery, ormond, crotus... I dare you to try... Facts are DIFFERENT from what you stated unfortunately
you are derailing... i asked you a simple question: when survivors use their strongest items, did they get some negative effects/sides? Also if some of the best killer addons are brown/yellow this is sufficient to tell you how much weak are compared to the ones that survivors got, so my point still stand
EXACTLY, you can't... for that reason the build is broken since you can't be in more than 1 place at the same time... you can chase 1 survivor at time, not all of them. when you are busy with one of them, the others won't stay idle, waiting for being chased by you, they will do gens
i'll close our debate here (at least for now) since i'm tired to wrote entire essays just to prove simple points that people can easily aknowledge with experience playing both sides
i said that it was reworked since they only decreased the % of effectiviness of the perk, not completely erase/nullified the utility/purpose of the perk (aka gutting)
So Iron Will made it so that you couldn't be heard before at all, and now you can be heard. That's not a total gutting, not at all. I mean, the one purpose the perk has is now undone by hitting the 'volume up' button, but that's not a total removal of functionality, not at all. And it now can't be used with exhaustion perks, that's not gutting it either. Sure.
The examples that i stated above were just examples of broken stuff that were rightfully fixed during those years, don't you understand?
Yes, and DS was not one of those, that was the entire bloody point! You're using your opinion as an argument here, in that YOU think that DS deserved to be cut by half because of a tangentially related thing.
if we wanna be picky then even those had a counter: stealth plays (he can't mori you on the spot if he's unable to put you in the dying state)
Stop. Doing. This.
You KNOW that what you are saying is dumb. You KNOW that this is not practically applicable. You KNOW that old NOED and Moris would be guaranteed to proc during a normal match, over the course of normal gameplay.
You KNOW that this is not the case for DS.
the point is that DS was easily abusable
After the conspic nerf, no, it wasn't.
I've only been hit with DS once, and it was 100% my own fault and perfectly avoidable.
DS is not abusable. People have tried abusing it against me, and they wound up stretched out on the floor while I ignored them and went for a target that wouldn't have DS, costing them more time than me.
even if you claimed that counters existed
You know, it's ever worse than that. It's not so much that counters existed.
It's that the killer needs to intentionally and actively, willingly and wittingly, invest time and effort to make DS work.
The KILLER is the one that activates DS. Nothing the survivors do can make DS trigger. ONLY the killer can make DS trigger. It's not even that there's counters to it, it's just that the killer can pretty much opt out of DS.
not to mention that the time wasted in order to counter it was more than sufficient for giving advantage to your team
Not if you're a competent killer.
But this also highlights a major problem with your attitude, and that of many others: You think tunnelling should be the baseline. You want everything to be balanced for tunnelling, only to then turn around and go 'WOE IS ME!' when you feel 'forced to tunnel'. You don't accept non-tunnelling as the balancing point.
It is YOUR fault that you can't win without tunnelling, no matter which way you try to argue it. Even if you want to argue that the game is not balanced around 12-hooking, that is also on you if you insist that the DS nerf was fair. That is YOU pushing the game to be balanced around tunnelling.
Don't cry when you get what you demanded and then it turns out that it wasn't what you wanted.
i'll tell you my personal anedocte: i was hitted by that perk when i was playing as legion without tunneling and camping
No, you still specifically went after the target that was pulled off the hook in the last 60 seconds before they had the chance to do anything else! You targeted them, you could've picked anyone else, especially as legion, but you went after a fresh unhook.
Because there's literally no other way DS can hit you.
It is YOUR fault. YOU activated DS, not them.
I couldn't kill anyone partially for all the 2nd chances
How are you burning through all these second chances then, huh? Slapping folks off hook with BT, but you're not 'camping'? Getting hit with DS, but you're not 'tunnelling'? Folks standing up after you left them on the ground for too long, but you're not 'slugging'?
anyway the point is that i was hitted by that perk WITHOUT DESERVING IT
Right. Sure. Uh-huh.
a SMALL reduced cooldown of the main weapon won't do literally nothing for those killers, especially if we wanna look at the awful state of the maps... try to land a hatchet in the badham school right after hitting someone with a m1, try to do the same thing in a map like the game, lery, ormond, crotus... I dare you to try... Facts are DIFFERENT from what you stated unfortunately
So ONE of the six buffs that killers got may conditionally not be as valuable and that's reason for you to disregard ALL of them in their entirety under ANY situation?
you are derailing... i asked you a simple question: when survivors use their strongest items, did they get some negative effects/sides? Also if some of the best killer addons are brown/yellow this is sufficient to tell you how much weak are compared to the ones that survivors got, so my point still stand
You're the one trying to argue that killers DIDN'T get improved access to more powerful add-ons, by again, going into cherry-picked examples and using those to make a broad, sweeping statement.
EXACTLY, you can't... for that reason the build is broken since you can't be in more than 1 place at the same time... you can chase 1 survivor at time, not all of them. when you are busy with one of them, the others won't stay idle, waiting for being chased by you, they will do gens
No, they won't. Because after your first chase, someone's on hook, someone's getting chased, and someone HAS to go for the unhook. That leaves only one survivor on gens. ANY level of inefficiency on the part of ANY of those survivors drops progress rate down to 0%.
But that's also not addressing how the build is dependent on a ton of factors, is still somewhat unreliable, leaves the survivor a sitting duck for anything that isn't doing gens, it doesn't work against TR shenanigans, and it also doesn't address that this doesn't show the rest of the match.
In short, you're cherry-picking. Again.
i'll close our debate here (at least for now) since i'm tired to wrote entire essays just to prove simple points that people can easily aknowledge with experience playing both sides
Sure. If that'll help you sleep.
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@Tostapane said:
because this will convince killers at a certain mmr to leave once and for all the game, that's why... I'm talking for experience: playing killer at high mmr is MISERABLE, especially if you don't have the right killers (and most of the times i play with the weakest killers with mediocre addons so you can imagine what i must endure on a daily basis) and you are aganist sweaty SWF squads. If you are lucky aganist those squads you'll do only 3 hooks before all the gens wiil be completed. Sometimes you can get more hooks in the endgame, so if you look at the stats of hooks par game well, those aren't truthful regarding how it went a match... i can tell you a personal anedocte: once i was aganist a premade quite souspitious since they did all gens in so few time that i barely did a 2nd hook, but that match ended in a 4k due to the noed that i had and their excessive confidence/arrogance (for the stats i overperformed so killers need to be nerfed i guess /s)... all this teach us that stats aren't a thing that should be considered to be taken into balancing the game (or at least not a primary thing to consider) because you can play well your cards and win by camping a survivor that was catched before the last gen pop and keep downing the survivors, but again, these downs/hooks aren't made because of you, but because of their altruism (those groups usually want at all costs a 4 escape and this is their only weak point)
To answer the OP: because when the stats show that the game is way more balanced than people say, all the 'woe is me' killers come crawling out of the woodwork to discredit them.
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It does feel like hit validation was quietly reverted to killer-sided, instead of server-sided.
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Self-care was a thing.
There's more than one reason for the perk to have a solid pick-rate.
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@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3353901#Comment_3353901
now you are the one that's saying nosense... then for your logic it's like saying that the scourge hooks should be buffed because a single perk (sabotateur) can counter them (3 perks: flood of rage, pain resonance and gift of pain)... iron will was tweaked (i said tweaked because it won't work when exhausted)/nerfed (reduced the effectiviness) because it countered a NECESSARY mechaninc for that single killer (this and of course the overuse of that perk, but this is a secondary factor imo), you like it or not that's the truth about it... we can always ask directly to the devs if you aren't convinced...
then for your logic noed should be like it was once, without being related to a totem but a perk that wasn't disposable, with ALL the buffs that it had. old mori should be still in game, killing directly the downed survivors on the spot without hooks required because it should be "powerful" and not "useful" as you said... unrelenting should be like it was before... keys nerfs should be reverted, old loops should stay in the game... did you think at least of what are you saying? Just because something was broken/extremely strong doesn't mean that was funny/fair or right...
only the fact that you mentioned that huntress and trickster can hit right after hitting someone with their power is the proof that you gave me right since only newcomers to the game will stay near the killer after being hit from their powers in order to get the 2nd hit from a m1 or another use of their power...
i want to ask you something... when survivors use their strongest items, did they get some negative effects/sides? NO, while most of the killers out there have certain condictions/negative effects on their powers (iri hatches reduced to 1, clown bottles reduced by 2, etc etc). this is related also with the weakest stuff: while survivors have brown medkits and addons that are still useful somewhat, the killers have NERFING addons that will only improve the bp gained for certain events or even the strongest addons at their disposal (knight and map of the realm for example), just to tell you how much "fine" are the killer's addons compared to the survivor's ones...
you can't be on 4 places at once, period. you can't stop all the survivors to do gens, period...
iron will was tweaked (i said tweaked because it won't work when exhausted)/nerfed
So it WAS nerfed! Why did you deny that in the first place if you're just going to circle back and sneak in a little admission that you were dead wrong later on?
then for your logic noed should be like it was once, without being related to a totem but a perk that wasn't disposable, with ALL the buffs that it had. old mori should be still in game, killing directly the downed survivors on the spot without hooks required because it should be "powerful" and not "useful" as you said... unrelenting should be like it was before... keys nerfs should be reverted, old loops should stay in the game... did you think at least of what are you saying? Just because something was broken/extremely strong doesn't mean that was funny/fair or right...
You realise you're talking about post-conspic DS, right? A perk that, in well over 90% of matches, would never fire, right? A perk that sat in the majority of survivors loadouts, slowing them down without activating, right?
I can't understand how you think that anti-tunnel DS is in any way comparable to non-totem NOED, old moris, infinites or keys.
I will remind you of what I said: "The perk is dead weight in any situation in which the killer uses any of the plethora of ways to circumvent it. "
NOED could not be circumvented. Old moris could not be circumvented. Keys could not be circumvented.
DS? Just don't hit spacebar on anyone that was unhooked in the last 60 seconds, unless they did anything to help the survivor side. It was the easiest perk to counterplay, to completely flatline its value. I have been hit with DS literally only -once-, when I was a dumb newbie and fell for a bait. After that, even though DS was in every match, it never fired again. At all. Ever. Not for a lack of trying on the survivors' part, either, but DS is a survivor perk that can only be activated by the killer.
If a perk is so phenomenally conditional that it may fire once every fifty matches, it better bring some fireworks when it does.
NOED does not fit that description. Old moris don't fit that description. Old keys don't fit that description.
Seriously evaluate your biases, Tostapane, if you think that post-conspic nerf DS is in any way comparable to old moris.
only the fact that you mentioned that huntress and trickster can hit right after hitting someone with their power is the proof that you gave me right since only newcomers to the game will stay near the killer after being hit from their powers in order to get the 2nd hit from a m1 or another use of their power...
I'm not talking about survivors staying near after getting hit by Trickster or Huntress' powers. I'm talking about the on-hit cooldown being reduced, allowing these killers to ready their powers quicker after the hit and being able to score downs that they wouldn't before the killer buffs.
Did you forget the topic?
i want to ask you something... when survivors use their strongest items, did they get some negative effects/sides? NO, while most of the killers out there have certain condictions/negative effects on their powers (iri hatches reduced to 1, clown bottles reduced by 2, etc etc). this is related also with the weakest stuff: while survivors have brown medkits and addons that are still useful somewhat, the killers have NERFING addons that will only improve the bp gained for certain events or even the strongest addons at their disposal (knight and map of the realm for example), just to tell you how much "fine" are the killer's addons compared to the survivor's ones...
Most killer add-ons don't tack on penalties either though...
you can't be on 4 places at once, period. you can't stop all the survivors to do gens, period...
Game would be fundamentally broken if you could.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3354480#Comment_3354480
One survivor healing for 20 seconds while 3 survivors are pressuring 3 separate generators and can easily switch off or 2 survivors (one of which has to hang back to even heal the others btw) who have to heal across the map while the other 2 pressure gens at a much slower rate
There aren't three survivors pressuring separate gens unless the killer is afk. There's also no reason for the person with botany to hang back instead of doing gens. And CoH does not affect gen speeds, so why do 'the other 2 pressure gens at a much slower rate'?
Also, have to keep the minimum 14 seconds set-up time in mind. CoH cannot play even with other healing perks once it's set up, it needs to have a chance to overtake them to offset the set-up time.
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3348623#Comment_3348623
CoH doesn't take 32 seconds, it takes 21 seconds. Additionally, the reality is that the amount of time a survivor spends healing themselves is less than the amount of time it took the killer to land that hit. That is the problem with CoH. At least with medkits, they have a limited amount of uses. But the boon is forever, even if you cleanse it. When 2 survivors heal each other, then it takes 32 seconds (16 total seconds, but 2 survivors) which tilts it more into the neutral zone.
The reality is, CoH and many other perks are just reasons why tunneling is the meta. Better to tunnel someone off the hook, and only deal with 1 health state, then to deal with dead hard, and 3 health states, and trying to spread pressure that just gets deleted with CoH.
"When 2 survivors heal each other, then it takes 32 seconds (16 total seconds, but 2 survivors) which tilts it more into the neutral zone."
Well, yeah, that's the neutral zone. That's the flat default. But if you're trying to argue that that is where CoH should be balanced to, you're legitimately trying to make the perk pointless.
It's a perk. It's supposed to be beneficial to the survivors.
Not every perk can be No Mither/Autodidact.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3349031#Comment_3349031
Again, you need one person to bring COH and then you never have to worry about healing someone. COH allows one person to be injured, run away, then start healing while the other 3 keep on pressuring the 3 gen or whatever else is needed. Botany you need 1 person always out of the game so you're left with 3 people and again, the slow down doesn't matter its the self heal that makes it op
Either you have one survivor healing for 21 seconds, or two survivors healing for 10.5 seconds, it really does not make that much of a difference.
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@NewPlayer100102 said:
OMG
" Toolbox greens for example are terrible. As are most offerings. Keys and maps are pointless"
Keys remove your collision last time I checked. That is not pointless. Maybe exploitive is more accurate. Toolboxes still load BNPs, and reduce generator time.
Survivors have the potential to be set up all wrong beyond a certain point, when coordinated and loaded with toys.
And this feels like a massive over compensation for the lack of decent tutorials that might tell new, solo survivors how to succeed.
I'm not really wanting to compare add ons for each killer vs the total survivor pool of junk, but I do not see it being contentious to note that some killers only have a handful of useful add ons. And I'll take 25% of a gen+ 1.5x basespeed for 16seconds over Blight's shredded notes or placebo tablet.( To pick a killer with good add on options to highlight that they all have some trash.)
When I said 'Toolbox greens' I meant the green add-ons for toolboxes.
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Are you running any add-ons? Some reduce the number of chains that hit with a possessed chain.
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@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3353177#Comment_3353177
instead of telling me that's nosense explain to me why it's nosense and why it was changed for your opinion... Iron will was tweaked mainly for that reason since people complained that survivors with that perk alone completely countered the spirit, without counterplays (plus stridor received the same treatment if not worse)
DS as i already said was tweaked but it's still useful... remember that you still have the basekit bt that allow you to reach a safe zone, and even in the case you can't reach it in time due for being too much far, DS will help you in that regard... it's still a 2nd chance perk pretty much effective if you know how to gain the maximum advantage from it
no it won't depend from the build and the killer... this it could be considered valid only with blight and nurse, everyone else rely too much of the mistakes that survivors do paired wth the fact of being extremely map dependant (a trickster/huntress/deathslinger for example won't do much in maps with high walls and obstacles due to the impossibility of using their powers; ghostface, myers, pig and wraith can't do much when in maps like ormond, haddonfield, badham, corn maps due to being easily spotted/unable to stalk properly). Btw if a killer like twins will down someone in a short amount of time as you said then the twins are facing awfully bad survivors imo.
i never said that it wasn't from both sides, but i wanted to point out that survivors have the upper hand since their items/addons are ALL useful (except the ones for the keys minus the one that reveal the killer's aura to you), not to mention that killers have those items available even before the rework of the bloodweb (i stil have A LOT of those items wth various killers that i don't even use anymore, leveled up BEFORE the bloodweb changes), while the killers usually have ONLY a couple of addons that are worth to be taken
regarding the last point do you like doing gens? That's the reason why it's not popular, but it's busted af, especially when aganist competent survivors... shall i post a video that show to you how much strong this can be? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nco8WCnAziE
instead of telling me that's nosense explain to me why it's nosense and why it was changed for your opinion... Iron will was tweaked mainly for that reason since people complained that survivors with that perk alone completely countered the spirit, without counterplays (plus stridor received the same treatment if not worse)
You're saying it's not a nerf, but a 'rework' to fix how it interacts with one (1) killer, while completely disregarding that this invalidates the perk against ALL killers.
That's like saying Eruption isn't getting nerfed, it's just getting reworked because it was broken on Blight only. No, it's getting nerfed. It's going to perform worse in all situations.
It's a direct, downward numerical adjustment. That is a nerf, not a rework. Iron Will still functions the same way, it just does a worse job of it, that's a nerf. You know it's a nerf.
DS as i already said was tweaked but it's still useful... remember that you still have the basekit bt that allow you to reach a safe zone, and even in the case you can't reach it in time due for being too much far, DS will help you in that regard... it's still a 2nd chance perk pretty much effective if you know how to gain the maximum advantage from it
It's not supposed to be 'useful' when it fires, it's supposed to be 'powerful' when it fires, because the perk is dead weight in any situation in which the killer uses any of the plethora of ways to circumvent it. The perk was tailored for one specific situation, it needs to be powerful in that situation, not 'okay'.
Again, though, you are tying your brain into a knot in order to try and avoid having to admit that a survivor perk was nerfed. DS was gutted. It lost half of its effective value.
The 'tweak' part was the EGC disable, that one everyone was fine with, but the stun duration absolutely did not deserve to be touched. That was gutted.
no it won't depend from the build and the killer... this it could be considered valid only with blight and nurse, everyone else rely too much of the mistakes that survivors do paired wth the fact of being extremely map dependant (a trickster/huntress/deathslinger for example won't do much in maps with high walls and obstacles due to the impossibility of using their powers; ghostface, myers, pig and wraith can't do much when in maps like ormond, haddonfield, badham, corn maps due to being easily spotted/unable to stalk properly). Btw if a killer like twins will down someone in a short amount of time as you said then the twins are facing awfully bad survivors imo.
Blight, Nurse, Wesker, Dredge, Spirit, Nemesis, loads of killers have way more options than you are trying to claim here. Pallets aren't really safe around a lot of killers too. That's also not mentioning how Trickster/Huntress/Deathslinger can act faster after a hit and might be able to score downs they couldn't otherwise. This stuff interacts in varying ways with varying killers, so yes, it strongly depends on killer and build.
And we're talking about post-first-hit instances. Twins can down injured survivors unbelievably quickly and efficiently. That's their entire thing.
i never said that it wasn't from both sides, but i wanted to point out that survivors have the upper hand since their items/addons are ALL useful (except the ones for the keys minus the one that reveal the killer's aura to you), not to mention that killers have those items available even before the rework of the bloodweb (i stil have A LOT of those items wth various killers that i don't even use anymore, leveled up BEFORE the bloodweb changes), while the killers usually have ONLY a couple of addons that are worth to be taken
ARE they all useful? Toolbox greens for example are terrible. As are most offerings. Keys and maps are pointless. I'd say survivors suffer more bloat than killers do.
regarding the last point do you like doing gens? That's the reason why it's not popular, but it's busted af, especially when aganist competent survivors... shall i post a video that show to you how much strong this can be? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nco8WCnAziE
And how much of that is due to changes post 6.1? Shall I tell you how much?
10.5 seconds. That's all that was added after 6.1. And that does require hitting those consistent great skillchecks on top of Stakeout. And a fully kitted toolbox with Streetwise. And if you want to do it more than once, you need Built to Last. And you need to hope there is no interruption of any kind.
But when everything's lined up, sure, you can do a gen fast. Not that much faster than what you used to be able to before 6.1, I mean, it's half a second faster. But it IS technically faster.
How did the rest of the match go?
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@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3353198#Comment_3353198
what are you really going to do with chunks of .3 seconds
Close the distance. Obviously.
Yeah, you can't teach much in one minute, but you can give chase with that additional .3 seconds. These DO actually add up. Just because you can easily discard them in your perception doesn't mean they aren't there, or that they aren't contributing to higher kill rates.
Excuse me, but close the distance to what degree if not minuscule/none at all? You would need to take a constant, practically clairvoyant path of least resistance for the entire match, and any sort of tidbit time chunks you'll have "saved" would evaporate with a single stun or blind.
Very good, most rush teams are higher mmr. Also just because most people aren't bringing the rocket launcher to the pistol range doesn't mean that it's not a problem when a team DOES bring it.
And how much of that is down to Hyperfocus versus Stakeout/toolbox? How much of that is actually the new stuff? How much does this impact the average killer? And why is this being argued on this topic, specifically?
Did you not bring up the time added to gens as a killer buff? I mentioned the hyperfocus/stakeout combination because it subverts the added gen time and exacerbates the issue of ultra fast completion. It impacts the average killer because no human being who consistently plays this game is going to remain a novice, they will inevitably get better/develop game sense over time and adopt the most effective tools available or the "META". Is it not foolhardy as a game dev to leave crazy-strong combinations as they are just because a majority of the player base isn't running riot with them at the moment?
You are grasping at straws.
Am I? Because DBD already has trouble retaining newcomers and intermittent players, so upping the skill floor for 80% of match participants even more seems like a really bad idea.
Yes, you are. In fact, I'd actually go as far to say that if this is your stance, then you don't possess a hard grasp on the causes behind the 3 primary events that make uninstalling an attractive option for survivors and killers alike, i.e. tunneling, camping and/or hard-slugging.
Our current predicament with tunneling, camping and hard-slugging has spawned primarily (albeit not entirely) due to:
- Prolonged exposure to generator efficiency elements that boost completion speed beyond the scope of reason, conditioning killers to jump to desperation tactics early unless playing one of the few top-tier killers quite well.
- Overabundance of defensive resources and 'second chance' perks inside a high efficiency environment.
- Killers looking at their hud not far from the start of a match, seeing that survivors have 60%+ completion while they merely have 0 - 8.3% completion and effectively going into 'oh s**t mode.'
Necessity is the mother of invention and it became a necessity to deal with fast completion inside overly safe environments, thus tunneling, camping and hard-slugging were born. Atm if anything negative is done to camping, tunneling or slugging without also including some form of meaningful base kit completion limitations or map changes, it's likely that even more killer players will turn coat or flat out uninstall because there would be even less that could be tried in scenarios of desperation, the occurrences of which are very probable in swf matches and more probable now with SoloQ due to the upgraded hud (especially with M1/Stealth killers).
If killers can be easily pushed into a scenario where tunneling, camping and slugging are the only real cards they can play (or lose the game), you can count on at least one if not all 3 of those deadly sins happening. This, in turn, makes playing either side obnoxious with extremely unsatisfying gameplay, leads to people uninstalling and writing bad reviews, company reputation decays, overall sales decrease, etc.
So, most certainly, ultra fast gens have to leave the picture and base killer stats need another slight increase due to the general increased player efficiency from the new hud (or map generation needs a big revamp). AFTER THIS more strict mechanics can be introduced to make tunneling, camping, and slugging virtually pointless/tactically undesirable. I'd rather play hook-based matches (with more chases) that feel more fair and fun instead of kill-based matches that mostly feel like a sweating fever dream.
The OP is correct, the current state of affairs sucks.
Patrick's hockey-based vision of DbD, gameplaywise, is a failure and does not deserve further support.
Excuse me, but close the distance to what degree if not minuscule/none at all? You would need to take a constant, practically clairvoyant path of least resistance for the entire match, and any sort of tidbit time chunks you'll have "saved" would evaporate with a single stun or blind.
These build up over time because they occur very, very frequently. On an individual basis they won't make much difference, but repeating multiple times per match, on top of the other compounding buffs. You ARE saving time, and over the course of a trial, likely quite a bit of it.
Did you not bring up the time added to gens as a killer buff? I mentioned the hyperfocus/stakeout combination because it subverts the added gen time and exacerbates the issue of ultra fast completion. It impacts the average killer because no human being who consistently plays this game is going to remain a novice, they will inevitably get better/develop game sense over time and adopt the most effective tools available or the "META". Is it not foolhardy as a game dev to leave crazy-strong combinations as they are just because a majority of the player base isn't running riot with them at the moment?
But if this is supposed to be the 'meta', why is it on such a low pick-rate? That's the point: If this is supposed to be so damn effective, why are people not picking this up? I rarely ever see Hyperfocus. The biggest problem I'm seeing for gen speeds is BNP, not Hyperfocus.
Then there's the point that Hyperfocus and Stakeout are perks, which means that the ability to do these gens faster comes at the expense of other things, so that benefit has to be offset against whatever it replaced, unlike the benefits killers got, which were basekit and are flat increases.
Yes, you are. In fact, I'd actually go as far to say that if this is your stance, then you don't possess a hard grasp on the causes behind the 3 primary events that make uninstalling an attractive option for survivors and killers alike, i.e. tunneling, camping and/or hard-slugging.
This is an extremely tired argument, but let's go with it, yet again.
Prolonged exposure to generator efficiency elements that boost completion speed beyond the scope of reason, conditioning killers to jump to desperation tactics early unless playing one of the few top-tier killers quite well.
There is one element that can be considered proliferous, and that's Prove Thyself. And it does not increase gen speeds overall. It can break 3-gens more efficiently, but it doesn't increase survivors' total repair speed. This 'prolonged exposure' is largely rumination. The other day there was a complaint about how many gen repair speed perks are being added, and as multiple people in that thread rightfully pointed out: They all suck. The majority of them are really bad perks. Hyperfocus is the only one that sees any kind of use, and it barely does.
Overabundance of defensive resources and 'second chance' perks inside a high efficiency environment.
I am generally quite tired of the inane use of that buzzterm 'second chance perk' because it's built on total misunderstandings of the game's core principles, but the application here is, admittedly, bloody hilarious.
Because what is the red thread connecting these 'second chance' perks, with the exception of Dead Hard?
They are ALL counter-perks designed to stop camping, tunnelling and slugging. In your argumentation for why people resort to camping, tunnelling and slugging, you mention that the 'overabundance' of perks that counter it are a reason to start employing those tactics.
That does not make sense.
Killers looking at their hud not far from the start of a match, seeing that survivors have 60%+ completion while they merely have 0 - 8.3% completion and effectively going into 'oh s**t mode.'
Another misunderstanding of the game. Once again, only the generators are counted, but when people complain about NOED, it's 'the game isn't over until you're out the exit gate'.
Survivors aren't immune to damage once the fifth gen is completed. The killer isn't incapacitated when the fifth gen is done. Each gen isn't a neat 20% of survivor objectives.
In addition: The speed with which survivors repair generators at the start is a speed they will not attain again at any point in the match after the first chase, if the killer is in any way competent. This makes a flat percentual perspective objectively misinformed.
Necessity is the mother of invention
So is laziness. Tunnelling is fast, easy and efficient. Why wouldn't you tunnel? It is objectively the best way to play! Not to mention that it's a great way to turn bully to someone, and lord knows people on the internet love bullying.
This incredibly optimistic attitude of 'killers only tunnel because they have to' just does not line up with fact. When killers were boosted in 6.1, there was no reduction in tunnelling. Killers objectively got stronger, survivors objectively got weaker, and yet tunnelling continued unabated.
I am sick and tired of this 'woe is me' attitude killers have and the tantrums they throw. The reality behind tunnelling is that it's fast, efficient, easy, and it makes survivors miserable, those are the driving factors behind tunnelling. Anyone that tells you otherwise is just pretending they care about game health when in reality, they just want to demand buffs.
AFTER THIS more strict mechanics can be introduced to make tunneling, camping, and slugging virtually pointless/tactically undesirable.
No. We're not doing this again. Because this exact same promise was floated before 6.1 and then nothing came of it. Roles should reverse this time: FIRST we fix tunnelling/camping/slugging, and THEN we adjust balance.
I'd rather play hook-based matches (with more chases) that feel more fair and fun instead of kill-based matches that mostly feel like a sweating fever dream.
Then stop sweating. Play easier and you'll get easier opponents.
@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352171#Comment_3352171
We've heard all this before. But you know what's interesting? You bringing up kill rates that are this old. That was shortly after the patch 6.1.0. Survivors have gotten a lot more used to it by now and we see DH in every game again. You know, that fance little perk that some people solely rely on to help them in chase?
I find it funny how many times we've heard this: "Yeah, because of the extra gen time games are 50 seconds longer than before" nonsense. The average game is now shorter than before 6.1.0, if the killer doesn't stack slow down and it's clear that you didn't do the math. This would imply that all games take at least 5x90 seconds = 450 seconds = 7 minutes and 30 seconds (this is not even including the time you'd need to get from gen to gen). You're missing a very small detail there. There isn't 1 survivor on gens all game. There are 4 survivors and the best a killer can realistically do is only have 2 people on gens with 1 person on a hook and 1 person in chase. Anything more is very lucky and can't be applied for long.
What happened after 6.1.0 is the HUD change and an inflation in items and addons. Everyone knows that the HUD does have at least some impact on the game's balance because in DBD information is crucial. How many times did killers win because survivors were less efficient before that? I reckon this will reflect on kill rates. We haven't had any official kill rates since, so bringing up the kill rates of 6.1.0 as if nothing had changed is not helping your argument at all. If anything, it makes it even weaker.
This is all largely irrelevant to the topic at hand though.
"Why are survivors the only ones getting buffed?"
Because the killers already got their buffs back in 6.1. What survivors are getting now is already compensatory. Killers don't get compensation for the compensation survivors got.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3353177#Comment_3353177
It does though? because undeserved kills are more or less corrupted data.
Also only thing that can actually be considered as "buff" was eruption and thana, which got nerfed and now worse than ever.
Anything else is at best sidegrade, and since best regressions has been nerfed calling it a buff at all is laughable now.
Again: Killers got four compounding buffs. Not in perks, but in their basekit. Stop dismissing these.
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@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3353177#Comment_3353177
It's an extra 2 seconds every time you kick a gen. Whenever you injure a survivor, you shave off .3 seconds. Get ten hits throughout the game, that's 3 seconds off. Then add the reduced on-hit sprint, taking away some extra distance, combined with the reduced on-hit cooldown to take away even more distance.
If you combine all of the buffs killers got, on an average match, you're probably saving way more time than any of you are willing to admit.
This reminds me of an argument from high school: "Adding 1 minute onto the end of each class before the bell will improve the educational value of the class because at the end of the year that's an extra few hours of class time added up." That argument didn't work because what are you really going to teach inside of 1 minute that students will actually retain? Much like this argument not working because what are you really going to do with chunks of .3 seconds that may or may not be experienced in the only way it would be minutely useful (as a lump sum).
Gen completion times having ten seconds added was rendered completely inconsequential from hyperfocus/stakeout (which enables gens to be completed faster than ever except for original BNP).
And very few people are actually using that, for some reason.
Very good, most rush teams are higher mmr. Also just because most people aren't bringing the rocket launcher to the pistol range doesn't mean that it's not a problem when a team DOES bring it.
The only kill rates that can truly be referenced for any accuracy when it comes to how lethal a killer really is are from the best vs the best, not a gaggle of varied skill levels/knowledge.
Sure, if you want DBD to turn into an unplayable spectator sport.
You are grasping at straws.
what are you really going to do with chunks of .3 seconds
Close the distance. Obviously.
Yeah, you can't teach much in one minute, but you can give chase with that additional .3 seconds. These DO actually add up. Just because you can easily discard them in your perception doesn't mean they aren't there, or that they aren't contributing to higher kill rates.
Very good, most rush teams are higher mmr. Also just because most people aren't bringing the rocket launcher to the pistol range doesn't mean that it's not a problem when a team DOES bring it.
And how much of that is down to Hyperfocus versus Stakeout/toolbox? How much of that is actually the new stuff? How much does this impact the average killer? And why is this being argued on this topic, specifically?
You are grasping at straws.
Am I? Because DBD already has trouble retaining newcomers and intermittent players, so upping the skill floor for 80% of match participants even more seems like a really bad idea.
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@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352215#Comment_3352215
Iron will wasn't gutted but reworked since this single perk could completely counter the power of a certain killer (spirit), so it was a needed thing to do. DS wasn't nerfed but fixed since it was supposed to stun for 3 seconds (was 5 due to the fact that enduring back in the days affected the stun mitigated ANY KIND of stun... after nerfing enduring and fixing the fact that it worked even on "special" stuns DS stayed in that way for A LONG TIME). People that claim that this perk is useless it's because they don't know how to use it properly since even 3 seconds are more than sufficient to reach a safe location like pallets and windows.
Good luck trying to catch someone then in the maps that are present nowdays with a killer that isn't a blight or nurse then (maps full of pallets, most of them extremely safe due to the fact that they are near jungle gyms and strong loops make impossible to end a chase in few time if the chased survivor is decent at looping)
improvements? Are you talking to red addons that are gimmick or awfully bad perhaps? the only killers with decent red addons are blight and trapper (and despite this he need to waste an addon slot for the trapper bag to be somewhat viable), everyone else has red addons that are mediocre or bad. As i said if you see the entire picture you'll see that survivors have the upper hand regarding items and addons
so for you seeing the classic hyperfocus/stake out/build to last combo paired with green toolboxes isn't troublesome and won't definitely boost the genspeed uh? Please, try to be impartial, even certain survivor mains that i personally know told me that this combo is BUSTED af
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352228#Comment_3352228
as i said above iron will was nerfed due for the simple reason that this perk alone could completely counter the spirit, so it was a necessary nerf (if wasn't for her that perk itself could be fine... if we don't consider boon: shadow step into the equation); DS stun time was fixed (again read above what i wrote) and selfcare well... they nerfed it because it was popular, but the perk itself was fine (again here you should blame bhvr for their poor decisions since NO ONE complained about that perk)... the difference was that survivor's perks were still useful after the nerf (except selfcare), while the killer perks were gutted (ruin became 100% instead of 200%, still a hex and deactivate itself once a survivor die... should i keep going or it's clear how much ######### those perks became?).
the swamp is one of the SAFEST maps in the entire game, are you sure that we are talking about the same game? regarding shelter woods it doesn't have many pallets, true, but those are all near jungle gyms (and this map has a lot of them), making loops strong enough to kept busy every killer in the game except nurse (for obvious reasons i might add), not to mention that the size of the map is really big, so really hard to defend generators... add the fact that now a new building will be implemented in that map due for the new chapter and you have every maps of the game UNPLAYABLE for weak killers like trapper, pig, myers, etc etc
for the last point see what i wrote above
Iron will wasn't gutted but reworked since this single perk could completely counter the power of a certain killer (spirit), so it was a needed thing to do.
That reclassification is nonsense and you -know- it is nonsense.
DS wasn't nerfed but fixed since it was supposed to stun for 3 seconds
That one may actually be true, but it's also turning a blind eye to the entire state of the game, and the perk itself. It was 3 seconds back when it was on-demand. It became 5 seconds, then it got tied to getting unhooked, then it got the conspic action nerf.
The bottom line is that the DS that was 3 seconds but needed to be 5 seconds because of Enduring is not the same perk as the DS that got its stun duration axed from 5 to 3. It's blatantly disregarding the state of the game with a 'well, technically' that you KNOW is just a rationalisation.
Both Iron Will and DS were gutted.
Good luck trying to catch someone then in the maps that are present nowdays with a killer that isn't a blight or nurse then (maps full of pallets, most of them extremely safe due to the fact that they are near jungle gyms and strong loops make impossible to end a chase in few time if the chased survivor is decent at looping)
That depends entirely on the killer and the build. Y'all act like you're playing adept Twins all the time.
And even those can secure a quick down, at least.
improvements? Are you talking to red addons that are gimmick or awfully bad perhaps? the only killers with decent red addons are blight and trapper (and despite this he need to waste an addon slot for the trapper bag to be somewhat viable), everyone else has red addons that are mediocre or bad. As i said if you see the entire picture you'll see that survivors have the upper hand regarding items and addons
You also get improved access to yellows and greens that ARE competent, and you need fewer BP to build up a stock of these add-ons so you can afford to be less frugal with them. The bloodweb improvement was for both sides.
so for you seeing the classic hyperfocus/stake out/build to last combo paired with green toolboxes isn't troublesome and won't definitely boost the genspeed uh? Please, try to be impartial, even certain survivor mains that i personally know told me that this combo is BUSTED af
It's got a 2% pickrate. If it was that brutally busted, why is almost no one running it?
@fulltonon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352171#Comment_3352171
Because the number 59-61% was actually equivalent of 50% if you think about how this game works, and their " regression buff" actually got reverted in 90% of aspect and now it's basically nonexistent.
And I said "technically" because it doesn't match solo experience, it's just that this game got much less balanced in big picture aka "statistics".
What, because of freebie kills? Because of how the EGC can shove in an extra undeserved kill here and there? Doesn't really help your argument though, does it? And no, the regression buff did not get reverted at all.
I'd be interested to see where you get these 'statistics', because we didn't get any since October. Unless you count Azhimovs' community thing, but those statistics definitely don't support your argument.
@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352171#Comment_3352171
Regression remains at 1:4 ratio with a 2.5% kick which has no practical application besides lightly punishing gen tapping (which shouldn't even be a thing in the first place).
The on-hit cooldown and hit-sprint reductions are so minute that they have no noticeable effect in higher skill matches.
Gen completion times having ten seconds added was rendered completely inconsequential from hyperfocus/stakeout (which enables gens to be completed faster than ever except for original BNP).
Killers might not come to the forum with such a sour attitude as often if they received buffs that were not subverted shortly after being given.
And as for anyone trying to cite global kill rates: These rates do not reflect the true lethality of a killer (nurse for example). The only kill rates that can truly be referenced for any accuracy when it comes to how lethal a killer really is are from the best vs the best, not a gaggle of varied skill levels/knowledge. There's a reason they cut off showing the rates at the top 5% marker.
It's an extra 2 seconds every time you kick a gen. Whenever you injure a survivor, you shave off .3 seconds. Get ten hits throughout the game, that's 3 seconds off. Then add the reduced on-hit sprint, taking away some extra distance, combined with the reduced on-hit cooldown to take away even more distance.
If you combine all of the buffs killers got, on an average match, you're probably saving way more time than any of you are willing to admit.
Gen completion times having ten seconds added was rendered completely inconsequential from hyperfocus/stakeout (which enables gens to be completed faster than ever except for original BNP).
And very few people are actually using that, for some reason.
The only kill rates that can truly be referenced for any accuracy when it comes to how lethal a killer really is are from the best vs the best, not a gaggle of varied skill levels/knowledge.
Sure, if you want DBD to turn into an unplayable spectator sport.
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@Sillymare said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352222#Comment_3352222
You do know right, that "usually" and "always" don't mean the same thing right? I've ran into non-bully swf groups but more often than not, the sfw group does all 3 as i said.
That doesn't actually contradict what I said. You say a majority of swiffers are bully squads, I point out that you don't know when you're going up against non-bully swiffers.
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This is the most DBD forums take ever.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3351557#Comment_3351557
-"Killer is at its strongest, and tunnelling is more prevalent now than ever."
You obviously never played DBD when we had super bloodlust in 2018 .That was a pushback effort to make killers come back.
-"Then don't play killer. because the reality is that you are going to lose those difficult to pressure gens early on when the killer is at their lowest point."
If I lose 2 generators as a result of the first chase then the first survivor will usually pay for it with two hook states. And then I will tunnel them out of the game. This is the only way I come back form losing approximately half of my objective. Everyone knows this and that is why the best players that want to win are tunneling.
-"What's to stop you from getting just as upset and 'muh tunnelling' over survivors getting 1 gen done in first chase?"
Perhaps you should go watch some tryhard streamers who don't play Nurse or Blight all day. A lot of killer mains play with the intention to tunnel one player out on game start. Why? Because DBD stops being a fair game anything past mid level MMR (unless you are playing fully loaded Spirit/Blight).
"You're not at 'high skill' play."
My regular opponents are DBD comp tournament players. It's common for me to play against people with 5000-10000 hours more than not. But tell me more about how I'm not playing at high skill levels.
-"That's why tunnelling needs to be beaten down into submission. No amount of asking nicely, no amount of 'dangling the carrot' is going to fix it"
Tunneling is the most efficient way to play killer. Gen rushing with the mindset of gens before firends is the most efficient way to play survivor. But this too is tunneling. Survivors want to tunnel generators and not get tunneled out as a response. That is foolish.
-"Or you can -not- completely nuke the game by making regular gameplay as oppressive as tunnelling"
Which will it be then? One person gets removed every game by the third hook or the game is slowed down and you can't win in 4 minutes because the game is focused on chases not holding m1.
Every comment you make has almost no consideration for the 5th player. It seems like the game would be a lot better for everyone if gens didn't get finished so fast. Then the killer would not feel the need to remove one survivor with the third hook. A base kit mechanic that makes the game harder but encourages keeping people alive would make the game more fun for all parties involved.
You obviously never played DBD when we had super bloodlust in 2018 .That was a pushback effort to make killers come back.
Stop dodging the point: The situation has improved for killers past 6.1., and tunnelling went -up-, not down.
If I lose 2 generators as a result of the first chase then the first survivor will usually pay for it with two hook states. And then I will tunnel them out of the game. This is the only way I come back form losing approximately half of my objective. Everyone knows this and that is why the best players that want to win are tunneling.
That first chase has three survivors working on gens for a total of 300% progression speed. As soon as that first hook happens, that goes down to 100%, because you'll be chasing one, one's going for unhook/heal, and only one is left on gen. Stop getting hung up on the first chase.
This is part of the problem: Competent killers understand that the first gen makes practically no difference. Neither does the second. It's the later ones that will make or break the game.
You're making a stink over losing those two first generators, but how does the rest of the game progress for you? Because plenty of matches have one hook at 2-3 gens done, and then STILL end in a 4K. You're taking a tiny part of the game and going 'that's unfair', and you're throwing the rest of the picture out.
Yes, you lose gens during your first chase. Everyone does. Yet somehow, everyone else is still getting kills, even without tunnelling, but you are the one struggling.
Perhaps you should go watch some tryhard streamers who don't play Nurse or Blight all day. A lot of killer mains play with the intention to tunnel one player out on game start. Why? Because DBD stops being a fair game anything past mid level MMR (unless you are playing fully loaded Spirit/Blight).
That's funny, because the kill rate is HIGHER at top 5% MMR than the total average. So it seems like -most- killer players actually outpace the survivors they're matched with.
Just not you.
Tunneling is the most efficient way to play killer. Gen rushing with the mindset of gens before firends is the most efficient way to play survivor. But this too is tunneling. Survivors want to tunnel generators and not get tunneled out as a response. That is foolish.
Honeydoodle, if survivors are 'tunnelling' a generator, the killer wins. If they're all playing orbiter around a gen that they are desperate to finish, you have all the pressure and control you need because that gen is not getting finished while you're on top of it.
This is the entire problem: Your demands for a 'fair game' are getting more and more outlandish as the discussion goes on. Survivors can't do gens during the first chase. Survivors can't finish gens. They can't be allowed to power the exit gates. You just keep dropping the bar for what you consider an 'unfair' game. No matter what you get, you will find something new to complain about, and we'll be right back here.
Which will it be then? One person gets removed every game by the third hook or the game is slowed down and you can't win in 4 minutes because the game is focused on chases not holding m1.
You know my decision. You know what I want the game to be aimed towards. The only difference between you and me is that you think survivors should not have any chance at victory.
Every comment you make has almost no consideration for the 5th player. It seems like the game would be a lot better for everyone if gens didn't get finished so fast. Then the killer would not feel the need to remove one survivor with the third hook. A base kit mechanic that makes the game harder but encourages keeping people alive would make the game more fun for all parties involved.
Here's the problem with everything you're arguing: YOU position yourself as the sole arbiter. You say I'm inconsiderate, but you fully disregard everything beyond your own limited experience. YOU think that YOU should be the one who, singlehandedly, gets to determine whether the game is fair, whether the game is slow enough.
Say you implement everything YOU desire, and survivors get slowed down enormously, and you get in a chase with someone who massively outplays you, what's to stop YOU from failing to take the L on getting outplayed and instead just ruining the game for everyone else? Again?
This is a gunfight. You and I are both tired of it, but whereas I'm perfectly willing to toss the gun out the window, you want to keep that gun in your back pocket, 'just in case'.
No. We already know killers will just go back to tunnelling at the slightest inconvenience. Literally anything can be used as 'justification' for tunnelling, as you yourself are demonstrating. You need to be stripped of that toy, not just leave the entirety of the game exclusively in your hands with a half-hearted promise of 'I won't abuse it, trust me'.
6.1. told me enough.
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@Basement_Bubba420 said:
The problem is that the game is balanced around 4 solo survivors.
4 SWFs throw things in the survivors advantage tremendously. It's a bunch of free perks.
To balance the 60% kill rate target killers need to have bigger advantages. These advantages are multiplicative against solo Q players and make solo Q hell. However, they can't give killer too many advantages as that would make things for solo Q even worse.
So now, solo Q players get some advantages to make up for the built in advantages SWF have. This should make balancing much easier as there is less of a gap between solo Q and SWF.
Why they didn't start this 4 years ago is a mystery.
Of course, when it comes to balancing don't expect much.
Remember the Dead Hard "rework" PTB. The goal of the "rework" was to reduce the distance survivors gained from Dead Hard.
Dead Hard was changed so that it provided 1 second of Endurance. This means that survivors would cover ONLY 4m compared to the 4.2m gained prior to the rework. A 5% reduction. A patch where the goal was to reduce the distance Dead Hard gave survivors started out with a reduction of.... 5%. Ofc, it could be said the goal of testing is to make discrete small changes so that the effect of such testing can be measured. But then we get things like the Eruption change so I'm not even sure if this is a the devs follow.
Dead Hard was changed so that it provided 1 second of Endurance. This means that survivors would cover ONLY 4m compared to the 4.2m gained prior to the rework. A 5% reduction. A patch where the goal was to reduce the distance Dead Hard gave survivors started out with a reduction of.... 5%.
Dead hard is .5 seconds though, not 1. So it's 2m instead of 4.2m.
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@burt0r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352158#Comment_3352158
But isn't that mostly true?
Not every swf is a bully squad but (nearly) every bully squad is a swf group?
Randoms simply lack the coordination and the accompanying balls to play in a bully squad (successfully).
Also to your question about "how do you know it's an swf?". While @Sillymare has brought up on false and two very subjective arguments, they also said they play on PC and it's really easy to identify a swf from other steam players, check their profiles.
And since more than 90% of all lobbies you have to wait for survivor to ready up (if at all), you have more than enough tike and in my case boredom to check their profiles.
It's the funniest thing when 2 of 3 or 3 of 4 have their profile on private only for the last guy to have them all visible on their friendliest.
Of course this also doesn't work cross platform and the majority of the time it's back to the subjective guessing game.
Another indicator btw would be simultaneously last second switching. Randoms rarely do it in tandem.
Disclaimer: Yes i regularly checked profiles (again, why can't they just ready up ugh.) but i don't change my playtstyle when i find one. Tbh i was so casual and bad that i couldn't really change my playstyle to compensate anything. I already played with Lightborn on all my killers and cathegorically refused to tunnel or camp because of my experiment.
But isn't that mostly true?
No, it isn't. Bully squads aren't the only swiffers, and I doubt they're the majority, or even a large component of the swiffer crowd.
Not every swf is a bully squad but (nearly) every bully squad is a swf group?
That is true, but that's not what Sillymare said and it's not what I'm arguing against.
Sillymare stated:
Usually it's all 3. So yes, I judge swf ad they are some of the most toxic players in this community.
With 'all 3' referring to keeping everyone updated on killer position, pissing off the killer, and trolling the killer.
But that 'usually' stems from how they don't recognise any swiffer that doesn't do that stuff.
they also said they play on PC and it's really easy to identify a swf from other steam players, check their profiles.
But they didn't bring that up, leading me to believe they don't do that. And so they miss all of the swiffers they go up against that don't piss them off or play specifically to troll them.
That is the selection bias. They only recognise it as a swiffer if it's a bully squad, leading them to assert that "Usually it's all 3".
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@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352171#Comment_3352171
on paper... in practice it's another story:
1 they gutted ruin, corrupt intervention (now it can be useful only for a couple of killers that need to set up their power since once you down someone the perk is gone) and pop, buffing overcharge (moot point since the previous perks that i mentioned worked aganist people who were able to play, while overcharge is simply countered by tapping the gen and hitting the skill check) and later eruption, only to be nerfed again into the oblivion (so overall the perks for defending gens were NERFED)
2 shortened cooldown after a hit and the sprint reduced for survivors after a hit are useless if they have extremely safe maps (just for instance it's extremely common finding double pallets in a small zone or pallets and windows so close that you can link those loops, making an already safe loop even more powerful), so even this is a moot point (i could have gave you a point on this one IF the maps weren't so safe tho)
3 again, on paper is increased, but the truth is completely different due to various factors to put into the equation: starting from the bloodweb rework, giving access to better items and addons for survivors (extremely strong medkits/toolboxes paired with instaheals, brand new parts and styptic agents) to new perks that improve the genspeed, making the game overall shorter than before
regarding killer buffs having deerstalker and shadowborn as basekit wouldn't be so bad for a good start (those perks are more QoL changes than real and proper buffs since they won't gave you advantages regarding gen defense or chases tho)
they gutted ruin, corrupt intervention (now it can be useful only for a couple of killers that need to set up their power since once you down someone the perk is gone) and pop
And Iron Will and DS were gutted on the survivor side. Corrupt isn't even gutted, it's still solid, it still does what it needs to do, it's just slightly less oppressive if the killer gets a strong start.
shortened cooldown after a hit and the sprint reduced for survivors after a hit are useless if they have extremely safe maps
No, they're not. The survivor gets to make less distance still, they're specifically less likely to make it to these strong loops, the killer wastes less time catching up, too. They're compounding buffs that, over the course of the average match, will shave off a lot of time, way more than people give it credit because the individual effects are quite subtle. But they add up.
again, on paper is increased, but the truth is completely different due to various factors to put into the equation: starting from the bloodweb rework, giving access to better items and addons for survivors
But killers got the same bloodweb rework so they got the same improved access to add-ons.
new perks that improve the genspeed, making the game overall shorter than before
None of them see any use though. Only Prove Thyself has gone up in usage rate, and that doesn't actually increase overall gen speeds, it just removes the co-op penalty.
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It's a little snarl, but I've only ever heard it when he's right on top of me, at which point I can just see him, too.
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@SunsetSherbet said:
The biggest issue with "perk to counter x" is that not everyone is going to use that perk. People said reassurance would kill camping and I knew it wouldn't because that thought relied on the idea every survivor would be equipping it and it would have a 100% use rate. It did not.
Also we already have a perk that protects you for a long time after being unhooked. Off the Record. Which honestly seems far better than this. Killers would just slug you for 4 minutes in a situation where you have made the hooks unusable and made it impossible for them to hook you. They'd also camp even harder to ensure you have no way to use this perk, since if you are never unhooked, then you can't ever set this off. Even if basekit UB gets in, that won't stop the killer standing over your body and pressing M1 if you get up. So this would just result in increased camping and slugging
"People said reassurance would kill camping"
That was before BHVR took the sledgehammer to it and changed it from a 40 second CD to, effectively, 'once per trial'.
The change caused it to require perfect coordination to be used against campers, making it unusable for solo queue, which needed it most.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352111#Comment_3352111
Probably because game had like 40-60% kill rates with solo q in mind, so technically game is in lot more unbalanced state now.
59-61%.
How is the game supposed to be in a 'lot more unbalanced state'? You forget that in 6.1, killers had their regression buffed, they had their on-hit cooldown reduced, survivors had their hit-sprint reduced, and gentime was increased by a total of fifty seconds.
Why should killers receive buffs if y'all are just gonna show up here a month later pretending you didn't get anything?
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@Sillymare said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3351585#Comment_3351585
You're joking right? The odds of a bunch of randoms having that kind of setup followed by me the killer having all 3 things i mentioned in a previous post occuring all match are so astronomically low that i'd have better odds of finding a claudette hiding in the darkest area in the silent hill map!(your literally blind in those areas)
I have played this game long enough that I know the difference between an SWF group and a bunch of randoms. Nothing you say is going to convince me otherwise. idk what your goal here is but its sure as hell not working. I'm not going to throw 600 hours of experience away just because "you said so".
I'm trying to get you to understand that you've gone up against tons of swiffers that never did anything to you, you just don't realise it, because you only and exclusively think it's a swiffer if they're a bully squad.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3351646#Comment_3351646
By the time the heal comes in the perk has done its job. Not saying the perk wouldn't be weaker, just not useless.
It would be practically useless though. If you don't get the health state back, then using that health state to get a speed boost will make it functionally identical to taking a hit.
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@Sillymare said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3350448#Comment_3350448
I neglected to mention their signature setups in that post.
Two toolboxes, one flashlight, one medkit.
The tookboxes are always running perks that assist with gen rushing like built to last, the flashlight carrier runs tracking perks to keep tabs on all survivors to make sure they can make their saves sometimes running DS in case they get tunneled to ensure they can get away and get healed.
Healer also runs tracking perks along with DS and Built to last
Again, how do you know that anyone NOT running that set-up is NOT a swiffer?
How do you know, for sure, that anyone running that set-up IS a swiffer?
What's to stop me from piling on a medkit, tracking perks, DS and Built to Last and being the completely randomly assigned fourth wheel?
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3351484#Comment_3351484
Your understanding of the game is laughable.
-"killer has never been easier than it is now, and yet tunnelling is at an all-time high."
Killer is not strong right now. The hud changes massively tilt the game if everything else were fine (it's not). The 6.0 patch caused Otz to start tunneling and right now Truetalent is playing killer by request and otherwise plays survivor.
-"Tunnelling needs to be nerfhammered into the ground."
Let me guess - you are one of those players that think it's fine for survivors to tunnel generators but bad when killers do it? Tunneling needs to be removed from the game for BOTH sides. Most people don't consider the killer's fun. It's not fun to lose 2/5 or 3/5 of your objectives in the first chase.
Why do killers tunnel?
- Because survivors tunnel gens.
- Gen speeds are too fast relative to chase speeds when we look at high skilled play. Only Nurse/Blight really have much of a chance.
- Base kit borrowed time encourages more tunneling. I know that doesn't make sense but that is what happens.
- Map sizes overall are unfair unless you are playing Nurse/Blight.
- Because you get nothing for going for 4 different people as part of the base kit.
It's not some narrative it's very simple.
Consider what do you get if you get 33% of a generator finished? You get nothing if the generator resets. Imagine a killer asking the survivors to get all 7 generators to 33% before trying to get one generator before 66% progress. It's ridiculous right? Well it's foolish to ask the killer not to tunnel.
You need to give the killer something better than tunneling to discourage it.
Killer is not strong right now. The hud changes massively tilt the game if everything else were fine (it's not). The 6.0 patch caused Otz to start tunneling and right now Truetalent is playing killer by request and otherwise plays survivor.
Killer is at its strongest, and tunnelling is more prevalent now than ever. This proves that this idea that folks like to spout on the forums of 'Killers only tunnel because they can't win otherwise' is nonsense. Buffing killers does not decrease tunnelling at all, yet you still want to cling onto it.
And 6.0? 6.0!? That's the Dredge release. That did nothing for the overall game balance! If Otz started tunnelling there, then that proves that tunnelling has nothing to do with how strong killers are. It was just a random moment!
Unless you meant to say 6.1, you know, the big perk overhaul that also gave killers a ton of compounding buffs. In which case you're smashing your own windows even harder.
It's not fun to lose 2/5 or 3/5 of your objectives in the first chase.
Then don't play killer. because the reality is that you are going to lose those difficult to pressure gens early on when the killer is at their lowest point. That is a necessity of balance. Plenty of games stall out really badly once the survivors only have one or two gens left to do. Not to mention that (And I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time) you leave out the exit gates and EGC.
This also illustrates exactly what I'm talking about: You can just drop the bar. Because now you're not talking about having a fair match, now you're talking about how survivors get gens done. What's to stop you from getting just as upset and 'muh tunnelling' over survivors getting 1 gen done in first chase? Or getting 3 gens done over the entire match? It's shameful how often it happens that killers complain about something survivors can accomplish in matches that the killer wins by a landslide.
Gen speeds are too fast relative to chase speeds when we look at high skilled play.
You're not at 'high skill' play. None of you are. If even half of the people whinging about how they are 'forced to tunnel' were actually in 'high skill play', we'd have 25% of the playerbase somehow crammed in the top 5% MMR.
Not to mention that if you DO tunnel, you're going to be pushing your MMR above where your chase skill is, so you're creating that problem for yourself in the first place!
Well it's foolish to ask the killer not to tunnel.
Congrats. That's why tunnelling needs to be beaten down into submission. No amount of asking nicely, no amount of 'dangling the carrot' is going to fix it. So stop advocating for a 'just buff killers' approach.
You need to give the killer something better than tunneling to discourage it.
Or you can -not- completely nuke the game by making regular gameplay as oppressive as tunnelling, and just nerf tunnelling instead.
Besides, who's going to judge what's 'better than tunnelling'? Is it, perchance, the killer?
What's to stop you from losing one (1) game and coming right back here to whinge about how you're 'forced to tunnel', and demand yet more buffs? After 6.1, I just don't take 'Just trust me, bro' for any kind of value.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
2021 Trickster, March chapter, first of the year chapter = Weak killer, most of community calling him the worst killer in the game, then he gets after few weeks buffs, but still nothing great of a killer.
2022 Sadako, March chapter, first of the year chapter = Weak killer, most of community calling her top weakest killer in the game, but she didn't get any buffs.
2023 Skull Merchant, march chapter, first of the year chapter = weak killer, most of community don't like her, will probably get buffs in future after realese as well.
I know it's probably not on purpose but I just find it funny.
Didn't Sadako turn out to be one of the stronger killers?
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/365411/tunneling-can-never-be-solved
Tunneling is not necessary on maps smaller than 9000m². Therefore I have to ask why do maps larger than that exist?
What is different on a small map? During chase you find people on gens naturally and can often partially interrupt people multiple times per game.
Only the fastest killers or teleporters can play large maps. You just dont have time to go to a generator and have the survivor pre-run early b/c their SWF team told them you dropped chase.
Tunneling can be ended very easily. You give the killer a reward better than removing someone form the game. For example : imagine if base kit the killer got a permanent 8% stacking penalty to gen speeds for each unique player hooked as long as no one has been removed from the game.
Or you give the killer the ability to kick completed generators. The generators are everything and all you need to do is make sure the important ones don't ever stay at 100% completion.
Or you give killers generator regression/blocking for each hook. Imagine for example if hooking a survivor made the gen with the most progress regress as if the killer had kicked it and prevented any survivor from working that generator until the hooked player had been rescued. Obviously this would only work if the killer is 16m away from the hook (starts immediately with a grace period to leave the hook zone) and would only work for one generator/hooked survivor not multiple.
Tunneling can be ended very easily. You give the killer a reward better than removing someone form the game. For example : imagine if base kit the killer got a permanent 8% stacking penalty to gen speeds for each unique player hooked as long as no one has been removed from the game.
So you can get a max of 32% slowdown for 4 hooks, or, what, 50-60% slowdown for 3?
People need to really stop talking garbage about how killers just need to be buffed out the wazoo to compensate for tunnelling. It's not going to work. It is never going to work. You've got people crying their asses off about how unfair the game is to killers when killer has never been easier than it is now, and yet tunnelling is at an all-time high.
We -know- that killers are just going to drop the bar for what they consider 'viable' and demand more buffs 'or else we'll tunnel'. It's the killer's beatstick. It's just something they pull out of storage to mess up talks of balancing and demand easier games. "Just make the game literally unwinnable for survivors, and we -might- tunnel a bit less"
Except everyone knows that as soon as you screw up anything in your game and a single gen gets done, you'll go straight back to tunnelling.
Tunnelling needs to be nerfhammered into the ground. It needs to be a garbage tactic that feels as terrible for the killer to employ as it is for the survivors to face.
And we -know- DS is a good deterrent, so all we need is for that to be basekit (And the stun cut reverted), with perhaps the tweak that you have no killer collision while it's up. Make it only usable against tunnellers and you'll seriously push that tactic back down.
@Dbdfan398 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3350085#Comment_3350085
Except you ignore all the genrush perks now in the game, and basekit BT, OTR
Basekit BT accomplishes nothing. OTR doesn't work if the killer tunnels hard enough. Genrush perks do nothing against tunnelling. In fact, the only 'genrush' perk that sees any consistent use is countered by tunnelling.
DS actually made tunnelling suck, before it got a random 50% nerf.
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@Phasmamain said:
So boon totems have been a part of dbd for over a year now so I thought it was about time to have an overall discussion of their inclusion and how they have affected the game
There’s currently 4 boons in the game being Shadowstep, Circle of healing, exponential and dark theory. I can say that only 1/4 of these totems are a well designed perk so let’s go from best to worst
BOON: SHADOWSTEP
Shadowstep is the only boon I would consider well balanced. It gives a strong effect that has utility when close to and potentially far away from the killer but doesn’t feel oppressive from the killer’s perspective. 24m is a perfect range from it and it always feel useful to set up
Honestly nothing I would change about it
BOON: EXPONENTIAL
Exponential is where the problems begin. As a boon it already comes with the restrictions of having a set up time and limited range. When within that range it has a decent effect but in most matches it falls short. Killers don’t always slug and even if they do you have to make sure to die within its radius. If the killer notices this trend then they’ll simply listen out for boon audio and snuff it before you get up
Also worth noting that it makes twins almost unplayable as if they needed to be kicked down anymore
BOON: DARK THEORY
Boon dark theory is one of the worst designed perks in DBD if I’m being honest. When within boon range all survivors receive a 2% move speed bonus. Problem is this can’t be buffed as even 5% to 7% could be too much. Movement speed should be very rare for perks and adding it to a team wide totem is just not a good idea
This one just needs a full rework with a new effect
BOON: CIRCLE OF HEALING
Last but definitely not least is Circle of healing. COH’s problems begin in the very nature of the perk. It has 0 risk because it’s most effective when placed far away from the killer which is counter intuitive to how boons should work. It provides too much value to the whole team while lacking the risk it should inherently have
I’d argue that it also needs a full rework too. It’s the only boon that is meta and should not be how they are designed
So can boons even be fixed? To be honest I don’t really think so. There’s a lot of inherent issues to their balance and how they give their effects to everyone on your team. Not only that but having multiple meta boons would lead to 1 survivor in a 4 man running them for the whole team which would encourage tunnelling the boon user out of the match
What are your thoughts on boons and do you think they are good for the game as a whole?
It has 0 risk because it’s most effective when placed far away from the killer
That's not true. CoH's value comes from making healing go faster. If you have to run across the map to benefit from it, CoH loses its value. It needs to be relatively close to the action to get value.
On the topic at hand though: I think there's some more potential to be had in boons, but one thing that needs to be done to free that potential up is getting rid of the rigidity in parameters. Dark Theory and CoH are not comparable in output value, but they share the same set-up time and the same radius.
Boons need to be changed so that individual perks use individual parameters, and stacking them should either set all of the effects to the same radius, or just layer the radii on top of one another.
Dark Theory and/or Exponential would be better already if they were 30 meter in radius, or 36. CoH might be better balanced if it was 18 meters, or took 18 seconds to set up instead of 14. There's just plenty of wiggle room, but the devs need to be willing to exploit it. You can make boons with weaker effects become more appealing by improving surrounding parameters (Having a boon that snuffs itself after a certain effect is used, but it can be set up fast. Having a boon with a weak effect over a large radius.) or make perks with stronger effects be balanced out by making the parameters surrounding it more restrictive.
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@MonsterDilf said:
Ah, nothing like starting off the night with a console Killer (as usual they're the worst,) camping the hook of any survivor. This guy let the gens get pushed, I managed 2.5 before attempting to rescue a Steve who was routinely hooked, tunneled, and the killer just stood around him, waiting for someone to rescue him.
"oH bUt yOu cOuLd hAvE rUsHeD gEnS" I hear your screech! I did, but I also feel bad for the survivors who have to spend their game, laying on the ground, and then getting hooks and sitting there for 120 seconds + bleed out time.
One thing I notice commonly in the camping discussion (tunneling is a different topic) is this patronizing "well you should just do this," attitude, which really does not set tone for a proper dialogue about the issue at hand. It REEKS of this crabs in a bucket mentality, and I'm not here for that: killers and survivors deserve a good mix of risk/reward.
cant wait to see how many posts hit me with a cry harder/rush gens/thats just how it is/should killers just not have any fun then/dont play the game
"oH bUt yOu cOuLd hAvE rUsHeD gEnS"
I want this to be kept in mind when people talk about how you can't fix camping.
Hinge it on doing gens and you can work to a solution. Adapt the old 'Hook timer slows down if the killer is nearby' idea by making it dependent on the survivors doing gens, making it an obviously bad play to camp, and disallowing a bunch of survivors to put pressure on the killer by hook-swarming, and you can probably get an anti-camp that doesn't break up normal killer gameplay.
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@Zokenay said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3350449#Comment_3350449
6 secs is too much.
It could be 10 or 20, and it'd still be fine, since it's super easy to counterplay.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3350128#Comment_3350128
It's better but I think Its still probably too strong. Remove the hindred and blidness and maybe reduce the hook sabotage distance to like 12 meters and then maybe it could be okay.
That would do literally nothing but slightly increase time from pick-up to hook. A perk like this requires a hookstate to activate and requires killer compliance, it needs an actually impactful effect.
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@Sillymare said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3349526#Comment_3349526
It's extremely easy to tell the difference between swf and non-swf.
For starters swf groups tend to load into the lobby simultaneously.
Secondly they are FAR MORE CORDINATED than a bunch of randoms.
Thirdly, they are often overly altruistic of each other, dropping whatever they are doing to unhook or heal their teammates.
A) That's not necessarily a swiffer. If three unrelated survivors are in a lobby and that lobby fails to fire, the three of them together might get shunted to a different lobby and thereby appear to be a swiffer when they're not.
B) This is the same selection bias: if you base your tallying of swiffers on how coordinated they are, you will miss the uncoordinated swiffers. Not to mention that solos can also be coordinated. My most 'coordinated' plays have all been on randos, not swiffer teammates, for example.
C) I'm overly altruistic to solos because all three of my builds on Vittorio at the moment have an emphasis on healing. Also, there's challenges that can compel survivors to rush for unhooks and heals.
So yeah, your means of identifying swiffers are pretty flawed, so how do you know most swiffers are bully squads?
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3348681#Comment_3348681
When people don't run CoH, it's super easy nowadays to run loaded medkits that never run out.
CoH just enables things like multiple BNP without losing the 'everyone can self heal fast' problem. Which is a problem, just for inherently transforming a situation which is 3 survs off gens (injured, healing, chased) into 2 survs off gens, vastly reducing the slowdown effect and meaning there's a lot less of people risking doing gens injured because they can't go get the heal (obviously, SWF and good players are way more likely to go get the healing in that situation, but it's still a thing).
It probably doesn't help that CoH's nerfs were followed by the Bloodweb rework, so we went from a game where great medkit stacking was occasional to being a thing that's pretty easy to do (if people weren't so flashlight obsessed). And very little slow self care use that eats a perk.
So it's not CoH that's the issue, because without it, people would be running much more efficient heals.
Also...
Which is a problem, just for inherently transforming a situation which is 3 survs off gens (injured, healing, chased) into 2 survs off gens
How does that work, exactly? Why is the injured person not on a gen? Unless you meant he injured person is currently being healed, in which case, there's not much difference between the two. Either way, survivors lose roughly the same amount of seconds, not counting the set-up and travel times.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
Just running Hex:The Third Seal by itself would make solo q completely unplayable with this change.
I think it'd be okay if it were declared on first application, like NOED.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3349865#Comment_3349865
People doing things just because they're unfun for everyone else isn't a Killer exclusive problem, and it's not like tunnelling is the only unfun experience that overlaps with optimal gameplay.
Oh, you won't hear me arguing that. I'm all for castrating bully squads and BNPs.