Firellius
Firellius
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382405#Comment_3382405
This would've been my exact suggestion. If their problem is with camping a 3gen with a pain res hook nearby to force a trade then delete that aspect of it but reward cycling hits and hooks by refreshing tokens once all survivors have been hooked at least once.
Oh, for hook trading: all scourge hooks should be redistributed whenever a survivor is put on any hook. This to also fix the 'all scourge hooks spawned in one corner' issue.
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I was thinking the perk should reset once all four survivors have been hooked once, so you can get a second batch of procs.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381241#Comment_3381241
3 gen was massively nerfed. We are going to see a SB meta and trying to do a 3 gen vs SB and need hits for slowdown just isn't going to work. I don't see how you come to the conclusion that the healing changes bring 3 gen back to anywhere near the power it was at. It's still going to be a strat but it has always been one in dbd since Doc release. It has only be a serious issue with the gen kicking stuff which has been nuked.
Camping falls down with the kicking nerfs. You are now not heavily encouraged to camp hooks where gens are high since you no longer have cob and 3 gen nerfs mean getting a down and going into a 3 gen was also nerfed. On top of this PR was nerfed which was another thing strong for camping since you could camp a survivor on a PR hook and cycle procs. Healing changes are a nerf for camping unless survivors think they can be cute and not heal which camping counters. The name of the game next patch will be split pressure. This is where you get your game delay since slowdown is kinda trash now. The healing changes are basically base kit buffs for going for 12 hooks.
With camping nerfs you see OTR buffs since proxy camping countered this perk. PR is a nerf for tunneling since you no longer have a good regression perk. DH change also increase value for OTR which again is nerfing tunneling. The healing changes make gens go faster if you are tunneling and slow if you split pressure. Tunneling nerfs is mostly being that split pressure is how you slow the game down and OTR should be used massively now which is the anti-tunneling perk.
Camping falls down with the kicking nerfs
Camping =/= kicking. CoB and OC were never components of a camping build and honestly, neither was PR. Yes, PR is now potentially less effective if the survivors decide to trade more than four times (What kind of camping this is is beyond me at this point) but that's not exactly a fall for camping.
Healing changes are a nerf for camping
Survivors being slower is not a nerf for camping in any shape.
The healing changes are basically base kit buffs for going for 12 hooks.
Those are not nerfs to camping and tunnelling. I know it gets regurgitated ad nauseam, but no matter how much the game favours killers, they will continue to camp and tunnel.
With camping nerfs you see OTR buffs since proxy camping countered this perk.
And it is not gone, so no, OTR doesn't move.
PR is a nerf for tunneling since you no longer have a good regression perk.
That's not a nerf to tunnelling though, tunnelling is still by far the most effective method and its every bit as efficient as it has been.
Though of course, the killer does now have more time to find the unhooked survivor before they can get healed, so that's a buff to tunnelling.
The healing changes make gens go faster if you are tunneling
No, they don't. Gens are gonna go as fast as normal, unless you're referring to survivors picking up more genrush builds, but that's not a tunnelling specific nerf, is it?
OTR should be used massively now which is the anti-tunneling perk.
In other words, if you tunnel hard enough, survivors will now have 3 perks instead of 4. That's a buff to tunnelling.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380993#Comment_3380993
Players think gen rushing is going to be more of an issue because they think players should not heal. So lets go over how clearly wrong that take is by theory crafting it. Lets stay on average 1 hit will take a killer 30 seconds. In the next patch you will run healing perks as survivor. For soloq I'm planning on running botany and bond to completely remove these nerfs. Now for those 2 perks lets say it takes 16 seconds to find a survivor and 16 seconds to heal. This would result in 48 seconds of gen efficiency to get healed. If they last 30 seconds longer in chase because they were healed they now can potentially add 30 x 3c=90 charges or one full gen. 3 survivors all doing sperate gens at 1c per second. This means by healing and last 30 seconds in chase longer because of the additional health state we get more gens done compared to 16x2+16=48.
Just because killers can camp and tunnel doesn't mean you will still see it as much with both being nerfed. The strat is weaker next patch.
This update does buff soloq. 3 genning, camping, and tunneling are all getting nerfed. If you think all 3 of those things being nerfed and survivor just needs to bring bond+botany to remove the changes killer got then idk what to tell ya. And I'm not looking past the faults. I'm injecting the changes into the game and mentally simulating how these affect the game and coming to a conclusion on what the game will look like because of it.
Just because killers can camp and tunnel doesn't mean you will still see it as much with both being nerfed. The strat is weaker next patch.
How?
Nothing was done to address these. The 50% heal nerf is going to bolster both of those tactics. Tunnelling now also hard-counters DH.
What, exactly, was nerfed about tunnelling and camping?
3-genning got a hit with CoB and OC getting nerfed, but the heal nerf then buffs it back up again.
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How many times did Pain Res get triggered on average per trial?
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@Hannacia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380950#Comment_3380950
I'm not even going to bother explaining why this nerf is needed... If survivors can't see how powerful medkits + healing + CoH are then..i have nothing to say. LIke i said i play mostly survivor nowdays and even i found healing to be disgustingly powerful.
Anyways im done. At least i can see things from both sides.
I used Brine by the way..and scourge hook, yet i can still understand the nerf behind them. I will start using Jolt or Deadlock. Its fine. Im glad i get to use different builds instead of always relying on the same gen regression. Slobby has always been with me and it will stay. Survivors have always been scared of being injured, nothing is going to change their willingness to heal. Nowhere to hide. Love me that perk always with me.
Darling, the baseline 16 second altruistic heal was never a problem, but it got hit anyway. Medkit change is fine, CoH change is massively overboard but what's another perk in the bin?
It's the baseline change that's excessive.
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BHVR be pushing for queues being longer than the trials.
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@Hannacia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380849#Comment_3380849
Again. You can't nerf killers only and expect nothing to happen to survivors. If you look at that update most killer gen regression perks got gutted. So survivors are slowed down on healing.
Sure good killers will still be good killers but i personally think it was time to attack the healing survivors had. I play mostly survivor but im not biased thinking oh woe my poor medkit which healed me 4 times in a match and CoH that gave me unlimited heals. Those were broken and needed fixing.
Survivor have gotten good updates lately, so now something had to be taken away for killers to lose 3 MAJOR perks. Like i said. you can't just give give give and expect never to lose anything.
It will still be fine. You can heal yourself 2 times. You can still use CoH to heal eachother. People can still heal you.
"You can't nerf killers only and expect nothing to happen to survivors."
Killers didn't get nerfed, killer perks got nerfed.
The trade-off for this is an unconditional nerf to -all- survivors. That is not a fair trade-off. Anyone who didn't use these major slowdown perks is going to get a monstrous, no questions asked buff.
Imagine if DH and CoH were hit but the animations for picking up a survivor and hooking one got extended by one second. That would be horrible. Not only would this slow killers down unconditionally, it'd also have a knock-on effect where it's practically exploitable.
This is going to make the game worse. If survival rates don't plummet, there's going to be a major increase in genrush to compensate for the fact that you can't heal anymore, much like genrushing saw an increase when anti-tunnel was removed.
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@TigerSnake said:
It’s like they didn’t notice the nerfs to PR, COB, and OC. Substantial game play changes for both sides.
How many people complained about these?
Imagine if they made Dead Hard basekit but then nerfed Red Herring, Urban Evasion and For the People and everyone went 'well, they made things better for your side too!'.
Tunnelling, something that did actually get loads of complaints, got buffed, by the way, just as an aside. As did 3-genning, which was the root concern for COB and OC.
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CoH probably would've been fine if the 50% heal speed boost did not apply to the self-heal. Currently, it has no reason to exist anymore.
Pain Res was fine, scourge hooks just need to swap around after every hook so the killer can't just camp one lucky SH spawn and force hooktrades to keep triggering it. (Also prevents an unlucky SH spawn from ruining an entire subset of perks)
DH could've been put on just a token or two, but demanding a safe unhook means it won't work against hard tunnelling/camping, so that's another buff to tunnelling/camping.
Call of Brine seemed fine to me.
This sledgehammering is looking awful.
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You nuts, man!?
Slower base speed also means those first skillchecks take away MORE time! Any survivor sees that progress bar reset, they're going to throw pallets on your face and lead the killer to you and they'd be damn right to.
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@ReikoMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379281#Comment_3379281
Jokes on you, I'm a Mikaela player, I'm still bringing CoH and Shadowstep. I also I run bond so I'll just make you heal me.
Yeah, duh, no one is going to bring Self-care, it was already considered bad at 50% speed.
But that makes this 'take self care' comment kind of asinine, don't you think?
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@ReikoMori said:
Take Self Care and Botany Knowledge. The game was never meant to have solo self healing be as efficient as it became in terms of frequency, speed, and item/perk slot usage.
If you want to be able to heal yourself super efficiently, you'll need to dedicate a significant portion of your build to doing so which is how it used to be back in the day and it should have stayed. So it is good that it is getting back there which will hopefully force people to actually play more like a functional well rounded team that heals each other.
If you bring self-care after this patch, I am reporting you.
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@Emoba said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379210#Comment_3379210
3 meters is a long distance?
6 meters. 3 meters is the radius, 6 meters is the diameter you have to cross.
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@HugTheHag said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379160#Comment_3379160
It was possible to unhook, provided both players had the crouch key pressed ?
(Plus I genuinely wouldn't mind making placing a trap under hook impossible, I have no quarrel with that idea at all !)
You'd need to crouch for such a long distance that the hag had ample time to make it back to hook and just tunnel the unhooked.
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A hag trap under a hook just made it impossible to unhook without a flashlight. It's either giving survivors a universal counter to those traps, or banning her from putting them around hooks.
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@Pepsidot said:
My biggest fear!
CoH, medkits and base healing nerfed - 24 seconds to heal. This will re-introduce a strong Wraith sloppy butcher and slugging (potentially with Knockout) meta. Solo Q will be awful, coordinated SWFs could cope but will be more difficult. CoH will no longer be the saving grace and medkits could be easily interrupted and your healing progress gone with Sloppy.
I'm really not looking forward to this meta... and trust me it will happen if these changes go through. Once pallets are gone by gens it'll be:
- Hit
- Injure
- Leave
- Hit
- Down
- Slug
- Hit
- Down
- Slug
And so on.
Even if you're on an open gen, you won't see the Wraith coming until it's too late due to his invisibility. The new(ish) HUD will help a bit, but not totally ideal. Won't be fun.
Solo Q will be awful, coordinated SWFs could cope but will be more difficult.
Oh, true, this is going to widen the gap again. Great job, BHVR.
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Yeah, the medkit nerfs made sense, and they could've taken a different route with CoH...
But CoH now legitimately no longer has a reason to exist, and ALL healing got sledgehammered with a 50% nerf. This is going to have a knock-on effect on perks, too, as I can't imagine things like BK, DM, EC and the like to feel satisfying to use going forward.
More toolboxes and BNPs I guess.
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@ARTRA said:
I was specting CoB Over and maybe pain and dh to be nerfed, didnt spect Coh and med kits.
Hope they dont rebuff DH and Medkits but let all killer perks nerfed or something like that.
Pain now is a joke xD, can sit together with laverage.
Not just CoH and Medkits. All healing got nerfed. By 50%.
Fifty!
I can't imagine this ending well.
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Yeah, CoH definitely not usable anymore. So that leaves... I think only Shadow Step.
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No because I usually don't do those tactics, but if you don't, you can bet that survivors will have an easy time to finish all the gens (the killer is only 1 while survivors are 4: if you are busy with a survivor, there will be 3 of them free of doing generators, but even in the case you have 2 survivors always busy due to keeping them busy to do saves, 2 survivors will finish all the generators in less than 4 minutes... This is pure and simple math) while you'll end the match with few points/hooks...
Well, you already got this one wrong, because once you get that first hook, most of the time the gameflow will have only -one- survivor on a gen. One in chase, one on rescue duty, and one waiting for the save. That's one survivor left, not two.
@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378978#Comment_3378978
Not to pull out the win, TO GET POINTS and the time needed to play this cursed game! Is that so hard to understand? Back in 2019 I could do those kind of matches without resorting to those tactics, but nowdays I can't anymore, and I'm tired of all the UNFAIR chances (especially if we consider the awful map design) that survivors bring with them...
What are you talking about with 'unfair chances'? You WON. Whatever they brought was clearly not unfair because you STEAMROLLED them.
You can't have it both ways. You can't run tactics that clearly overrule whatever 'unfair' thing survivors bring and then complain that THEY are being unfair to you.
You wanna complain about BNP, I'll gladly be there with you. But as long as you cling to this idea that you're 'forced' to tunnel and camp, you give the BNP a reason to exist. They NEED that stuff to stand a chance against the tactics you pull out. That's what happened after DS got gutted: Without actual anti-tunnelling protection, the only counterplay to tunnelling became genrushing.
Every time you employ these tactics, you are part of the problem, and all you are showing here is that the game is either perfectly balanced in this terrible state, or that killers are overpowered.
@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378974#Comment_3378974
Decent doesn't mean that they were at my level... They knew how to use loops but they weren't good at chaining them together and they were too much altruistic, this is the difference... I won but not because of my skills, nor because they were really good, but because they did a lot of mistakes in the end just to protect their mate (they ended slugged for that reason... Because they were OBSESSED to protect their mate).
And you will have made plenty of mistakes as well and won in spite of them. But you're not in a position where you can objectively judge that, because it's way harder to judge your own performance.
Listen, you want my advice? You want 'chill' matches where you can just slap on whatever and have fun?
Don't. Kill. Anyone.
Tank your MMR. Slap, chase, and get everyone on two hooks and then just AFK or just go for scares but do not kill anyone. You want to have chill matches, you want to have 'for fun' matches, you have to dedicate to that.
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@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378945#Comment_3378945
1 as I said I'm trying to have chill matches so unlike the other people I'm using NON META STUFF (hence why this build with those addons), is that hard to understand?
2 just because a streamer say something doesn't mean that the streamer speak the absolute truth, quite the contrary... Also see my previous supposition about streamers mmr...
3 did I say that deadlock is strong? Never said that, but it's the only perk that killer have that's GRANTED unlike the scourge hooks (can be denied by simple map rng, placing them in places that you'll never go or by simply Sabo the hook) or overcharge/cob combo (a single skill check will completely counter 2 perks, think how much is strong /s)
4 in certain loops wesker IS a m1 killer, there's no way that you can play around certain loops due to being too much safe or having messed up hitboxes...
1 as I said I'm trying to have chill matches so unlike the other people I'm using NON META STUFF (hence why this build with those addons), is that hard to understand?
You're not playing chill though! You're busting out whatever you need to pull out the win, that's not playing chill, that's sweating!
If you always sweat, the MMR isn't going to suddenly drop off a cliff just because you swapped Overcharge for Gift of Pain. It's going to take time for the score to recalibrate as it tries to estimate how competent you are -without- camping, tunnelling and slugging.
Once it does that, you'll have your chill matches.
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@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378902#Comment_3378902
that was an example: if survivors are good they'll give you an hard time even without the usual bs (but still they were a premade, with the map choosed by them and a brand new part and 2 dead hard aganist a NERFED wesker with only deadlock as gen defense)... those ones were extremely fast to do gen and they were decent at looping, but as i said before i won because at a certain point i didn't wasted time by hooking, just slugging everyone of them cause they were too much efficent with the genspeed (this explain why everyone here made few points, me included). If i wanted to put a screenshot about survivors that were bad but they were EXTREMELY annoying due to all the BS that they used, then i've another screenshot that will tell you without doubt that those survivors were bad just by looking at the killer that i was using and the map that they putted
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/70M0NGPWJ0IU/img-20230324-143623.jpg
(nerfed trickster with a build that was made for the purpose of farming together with the others btw)
if survivors are good they'll give you an hard time even without the usual bs (but still they were a premade, with the map choosed by them and a brand new part and 2 dead hard aganist a NERFED wesker with only deadlock as gen defense)... those ones were extremely fast to do gen and they were decent at looping, but as i said before i won because at a certain point i didn't wasted time by hooking, just slugging everyone of them cause they were too much efficent with the genspeed
So they pulled out all the stops and you purposely held back and you still came out with a 4K where the survivors didn't stand much of a chance.
You're making a really good case for this stuff being OP as heck, dude.
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@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378722#Comment_3378722
just like killers aren't complaining about getting tot kills par match, but the fact that they are FORCED to play in that way if they want reach their goal, not to mention that some people should be punished for the toxicity showed in matches but since we know that devs on that matter won't ever punish someone for this (i did so MANY reports with screenshots as proofs, where people were using slurs, death threats and even some of them admitting that they were cheating... all of them unanswered obviously). The perfect examples was the 2 matches that i did 2 days ago with Wesker and another 2 that i did yesterday: one in rpd where i played with the survivor's rules (going for mixed hooks, not camping and not tunneling), got a 0/4 despite short chases (would have been shorter if wasn't for the usual dead hard that all the survivors in that match had) because they actually played to be optimal (finishing gens almost completed despite i was at 2 meters from them, bodyblocking for denying a successful chase, etc etc)... they had fun, but for me it was only frustrating seeing people tryharding so much and having their asses saved by perks (put also adrenaline into the equation)... 2nd day i still was rather annoyed for being punished for playing well so i went again for the usual playstyle that survivors hate (occasional proxicamping and focusing on tunneling the 1st survivor out from the game asap...). Perks, survivor's skills and items/addons were similar to the previous matches, but wanna know what changed? i actually had a better result on everything, both in kills (3/4 and 4/4) and in hooks (11/12 hooks and 6 hooks for the 2nd one cause in that match i wasn't giving importance to hooking people due to their speed at doing generators aganist the 6 and 4 hooks of the 1st day) by playing in a way that i DON'T ENJOY (but generally speaking i doubt that people enjoy this playstyle generally speaking) than by playing in the way that this game is "supposed" to be played.
P.s: this is another reason why i made this thread: if developers are giving tools for countering the unfun tactics that killer can use it could be ABSOLUTELY fine IF they'll compensate by making viable the GOOD GAMEPLAY, but this is not the case unfortunately and personally speaking i'm tired to being forced to play in that way in order to keep up the pace aganist good survivors... i play for having fun, not for work like streamers do... i should have also a screenshot of one of those matches...
for those that think that i'm not a good killer btw mind you that i was playing with a nerfing addon since usually i play with those ones for chilling (few people on this forum will probably have the guts to do those things btw)... a pity that the survivors that i'm aganist won't EVER do the same thing (especially since they'll abuse map offering whenever they had the chance)
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/CBGAIBD6IVBP/img-20230324-075734.jpg
just like killers aren't complaining about getting tot kills par match, but the fact that they are FORCED to play in that way if they want reach their goal
What IS your goal?
Because if your goal is anything that's not 'win literally as much as possible, no matter what', you are absolutely not forced to tunnel or camp or anything of the sort.
Did you ever consider the possibility that your reliance on an overly powerful tactic has inflated your MMR to a rank where you aren't supposed to be?
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@Chomperka said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378927#Comment_3378927
Maybe, not a problem for me to admit it, but why game continue to put me against them? How can you explain that?
If you tunnel to give yourself an extra edge to win, then the MMR will adjust accordingly. Remember, the MMR cares about literally nothing except which survivors you take down.
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@Chomperka said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378897#Comment_3378897
it really is, if you play against equal skill SWF. And if you say otherwise, then either you're survivor main trying to be salty, or game matches you against lower skill players.
If you struggle that badly, they're not an equal skill swiffer, they're above your skill level.
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@NerfDeadHardPLZ said:
- Devs will give love to m1 killers
- Devs will remove Dead Hard or nerf it to the ground
- Devs will nerf Medkits/Toolboxes and COH
- Killers will destroy blessed totems once they snuff them
- Gens will have constant repair speed ( no more gen rushing perks )
- Corrupt Intervantion pre nerf will become basekit
- Every Hex totem will have second life by default, undying will add 3rd
- Cleansing tottem will require 30 seconds, same as blessing
- Opening End game doors will immeditaly regress to 0% if they are not opened within 5 seconds of being touched
When Devs start maining killer and get good at it, they will realise all the problems the game have
Killrate of 95%.
And you'll be here going 'It's unfair that No Mither just allows you to get up, it should add a 10% hindered for 60 seconds after getting up'.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378528#Comment_3378528
If you fall for that trick more than once, you are the one making a mistake and you deserve to get punished for it. If someone tries to DS bait you, just leave them slugged and they lose more than they gain. DS was not abusable opposite a competent killer. I've only been hit by DS -once-, and it was 100% my own fault.
The fact that DS made killers afraid of downing a survivor and attempting to hook them, the most basic gameplay loop of killer, says a lot about how stupid a perk DS was and what kind of garbage gameplay it resulted in. If that's what's being defended, then I'm glad DS is dead. Good riddance.
No, it didn't. No one was afraid of that because it is the most easily avoided perk in the game. People would just not tunnel and not get hit by it.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378335#Comment_3378335
How is basekit DS a problem? It was the most well-tailored perk. The only thing that could improve on it is removing collision with the killer while it's active.
If there's one thing we don't need back, it's the meta of everyone running DS and then baiting killers into attacking them just so they can use the stun. Every single new tool you give survivors is immediately abused in the most annoying ways possible.
The problem with "fixing tunneling" is that sometimes the killer doesn't have another choice, because they either just can't find another survivor or the "tunneled" is actively seeking the killer's attention. What should they do, just ignore the guy who keeps getting in their face with a flashlight no matter what? I will never accept any "solution" that punishes innocent players. If someone is unhooked and they immediately get in my way while their teammate flees in the other direction, I do not deserve punishment for downing the unhooked again for their stupid play. I had a killer game a few days ago where a Kate kept unhooking teammates then using Sprint Burst to run away, leaving the unhooked with me as the closest and most convenient target. Am I supposed to be punished for that Kate's bad playing? Was I supposed to follow the imaginary Survivor Rulebook and do the obviously bad move of chasing someone who was already halfway across the map?
Tunneling is a valid aspect of this game and doesn't need to be "fixed". Disincentivized, sure, but not eliminated, because there are times where it is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
If there's one thing we don't need back, it's the meta of everyone running DS and then baiting killers into attacking them just so they can use the stun. Every single new tool you give survivors is immediately abused in the most annoying ways possible.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
If you fall for that trick more than once, you are the one making a mistake and you deserve to get punished for it. If someone tries to DS bait you, just leave them slugged and they lose more than they gain. DS was not abusable opposite a competent killer. I've only been hit by DS -once-, and it was 100% my own fault.
The only argument you -could- make is that bodyblocking with DS should be removed, which I would fully support.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378211#Comment_3378211
-"that idea has already been broken down when the 'no holds barred' tournament"
And how many killers actually got used? It was around 8-10 if I recall. So that means ~21 killers were not worth picking/considering. What does that tell us? It means about 2/3 of the killer cast would be ineffective in such an environment. If you want to put that another way : they are not viable.
-"Under what circumstance would Doctor and Nurse be pitted directly against each other?"
Doctor and Nurse are pitted against each other every time a Doctor with the same MMR as a Nurse player enter the queue. It's a mockery of game balance. There is no scenario where Doctor and Nurse are an even pick. You sometimes want to agree to this point and other times not.
-'Viable' means "Can you beat SURVIVORS?"
Since the Doctor did not appear in the "anything goes" tournament we can assume Doctor was not a viable choice.
I am saying: Doctor in an ineffective killer against very good players. Take your favorite streamer and donate 100$ and do the same for the members of a tournament team have them play a nice scrimmage match. Streamer XYZ playing the comp team with "anything goes" will be a one sided game with 3/4 escapes. Clown is better than Doctor in such an arena because he has one hit downs with a skillshot. Doctor has no "skillshock" for damage addon.
You can say whatever you like about "maybe doctor is fine" but at the end of the day he has :
- No movement power (making him weak on large maps)
- Weak anti loop (making him weak on most map tiles)
- Ineffective chases (because of previous mentioned problems)
- A power giving detection (which good killers already have via many hours played)
- a weak power without addons and has no real " punishing" addons like pinky finger/tombstone piece
Put this all together and you reach the conclusion that Doctor is not effective when compared to Nurse/Blight when considering playing against tough opponents. And that is why nobody has ever considered using him in a tournament when Nurse was available.
The conclusion I am making is along the lines of : Doctor should have some kind of "protected" match making when queuing for a game.
And how many killers actually got used? It was around 8-10 if I recall. So that means ~21 killers were not worth picking/considering. What does that tell us? It means about 2/3 of the killer cast would be ineffective in such an environment. If you want to put that another way : they are not viable.
No, it means they weren't picked. Anything else you infer from that is YOUR conjecture.
You've never seen how well a Doctor performs against survivors, and you are using that absence of data to state, positively, as matter of fact, that he is unviable. You do not know that. You have no data on which to base that assertion. You are literally saying 'I have no data on this, therefor I know, for a fact, that...'. It's the opposite of logic.
Doctor and Nurse are pitted against each other every time a Doctor with the same MMR as a Nurse player enter the queue. It's a mockery of game balance. There is no scenario where Doctor and Nurse are an even pick. You sometimes want to agree to this point and other times not.
Oh no, I fully agree they're not on the same level.
What I am pointing out to you, repeatedly, is that your argument is 100% irrelevant. Yes, Blight and Nurse are stronger than Doctor.
But that does not mean that Doctor is unviable.
Going by your first 'point', if there were 6-8 other killers that WERE picked for the no-holds-barred tournament, then surely, those are viable, correct?
Even though NONE of those, by ANY stretch of the imagination, are as strong as Nurse and Blight.
Since the Doctor did not appear in the "anything goes" tournament we can assume Doctor was not a viable choice.
No, we can't. You are SO eager to go there, but you can't. Just because he didn't get picked doesn't mean he's non-viable. There are a myriad of other factors that you would have to eliminate before you can come to that conclusion.
It also goes back to the exact same point: Not being a top pick DOES NOT MEAN IT'S NOT VIABLE.
Would you also say that Lithe is non-viable because Dead Hard is top pick?
You can say whatever you like about "maybe doctor is fine" but at the end of the day he has :
He has intel, anti-loop and slow-down, along with a stealth option on his add-ons. Instead of lambasting a purely theoretical vision of the killer, have you considered
that YOU specifically, don't know how to play him?
Because other folks are doing fine with him.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378335#Comment_3378335
-"How is basekit DS a problem?"
Basekit BT gave survivors tunnel protection. The result of giving survivors this perk only increased tunneling - not decreased it.
Why did that happen? Because the killer was already too far behind on their objective.
Why didn't the killer get Basekit Deadlock? The answer is because survivors would feel bad and not like it. From a balance standpoint the killer needs tunnel protection so they don't lose a lot of generators quickly. They don't get it because the survivors would have less fun.
The balance method for this company is : what makes the survivors happy will make us the most money. Therefore we don't really care about the killer's fun. "F*** em!"
Before DBD bought their IP they were under a mandate for 2 years where they were not allowed to nerf survivors again. When they bought the IP they had the opportunity to change the formula to a balanced game. But they didn't do that.
McLean made a quote from around this time concerning the Marth experiments : " We weren't trying to make a balanced game."
And they still are not. They want to make a game that is fun for bad and average players so they buy all the DLC and then move on. They do not balance high level survivor play because then 70% of the "long term" players would quit.
Before we had the 6.0 shake up we had regular scenarios in queue where there were ~30 killers or fewer for 4500 survivors. This data was gathered by pinging the DBD servers to see who was in queue.
Remember that the recipe for this game is supposed to be 4 survivors for every 1 killer. The queue was missing about 850 killers on average.
Since some people weren't here I will remind everyone that after the game had been out for about a year there was a killer strike where at least 2k killers stopped playing the role. There was a 15+ minute wait time to play survivor. But there was no other game to play so people waited.
This same wait time killed VHS a few months ago.
Ultimately killer is a lonely experience with very little reward. Most of my killer main friends are excited for TCM because you can play 3 killers vs 4 survivors.
Basekit BT gave survivors tunnel protection. The result of giving survivors this perk only increased tunneling - not decreased it.
Could that perhaps be because BT only works for 10 seconds and DS used to work for 60 seconds so now killers can just wait out the 10 second endurance to get a free down now that DS is garbage?
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377723#Comment_3377723
Stop suggesting basekit DS, it's the worst idea since basekit Unbreakable.
How is basekit DS a problem? It was the most well-tailored perk. The only thing that could improve on it is removing collision with the killer while it's active.
@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377890#Comment_3377890
That's putting a lot of trust in BHVR to do an extreme rework of their game and rebalance it without breaking something/everything.
Doesn't have to be just BHVR though. They do sometimes take suggestions from forums. They took a pretty ambitious one of mine, so we can all just brainstorm together about possible solutions.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378193#Comment_3378193
-"I'm trying to say that Doctor was best performing killer at all ranks."
And as I said before that statement means nothing. The metrics the devs use to balance the game are largely empty.
-"The issue you're having is that you're equating 'top pick' with 'viable', while there's a huge gulf between the two."
It's not a logic loop but it is a very simple idea. Because SWF exists and the maps we have are balanced for very low skill players - there are only two killer who are "fair" to play if you are playing people who are "good" or better at playing survivor in a SWF.
-"Therefor, Doctor is, by definition, viable."
Doctor might be viable the second top team A beats top team B where both teams can use Nurse and Team A uses Doctor while Team B uses Nurse. That will not happen without years of map/swf/killer rebalancing. It could theoretically happen. You could also theoretically have a solid gold meteor the size of a bus land harmlessly in your back yard.
-"We don't know, because Doctor didn't get picked"
Doctor will never get picked in the current balance because Doctor is at least 2 if not 3 categories weaker than Nurse. It's like you're trying to say : maybe fist wins at 100m if the other person with the gun is blindfolded.
In terms of ability to counter a SWF : doctor is not viable.
In terms of moving around a 11,000m² map : doctor is not viable.
In terms of getting quick downs : doctor is not viable.
Compared to other stronger killers with good anti loop: doctor is not viable.
Doctor has high marks in detection. That's great and all but a killer who has played for thousands of hours has good game sense and can find people just fine without "wasting" their power for that. Doctor is essentially pathetic in all the categories I mentioned. Let's get some top notch survivors and have them play the best Doctor in the world. Then we can have Hens come play Nurse. The best doctor in the world will look terrible.
Then we can walk it down a few notches. We take the best doctor in the world and we have them play some experienced/good survivors. We invite someone who is a good Demo player and once again Demo will make Doctor look bad.
If we walk it down again and have a mid tier killer played by just an "ok" killer main against mediocre survivors then sure maybe the Doctor would look good.
To make a long story short : We know the DBD metrics are essentially worthless when Doctor is the highest performing killer when he is easily in the bottom 8 section of "weakest killer" in the game.
And as I said before that statement means nothing. The metrics the devs use to balance the game are largely empty.
They're better than what you've got, which is -absolutely nothing-. Everything you say is conjecture.
It's not a logic loop but it is a very simple idea. Because SWF exists and the maps we have are balanced for very low skill players - there are only two killer who are "fair" to play if you are playing people who are "good" or better at playing survivor in a SWF.
Except that idea has already been broken down when the 'no holds barred' tournament was brought up where more than just Blight and Nurse were successful.
This kind of goes back to what @C3Tooth was saying earlier in the thread: Your standards for what is 'viable' are simply misconstrued.
Doctor might be viable the second top team A beats top team B where both teams can use Nurse and Team A uses Doctor while Team B uses Nurse. That will not happen without years of map/swf/killer rebalancing. It could theoretically happen. You could also theoretically have a solid gold meteor the size of a bus land harmlessly in your back yard.
At this point, you're so far off track that you're not even talking about DbD anymore. Under what circumstance would Doctor and Nurse be pitted directly against each other? Is there a new killer vs. killer gamemode that I missed somewhere along the way? Because from my understanding of DbD, having played it a few times, killers go up against SURVIVORS, not other killers.
Why are you pitting Doctor versus Nurse when that has nothing to do with viability? Again: You are conflating 'top pick' with 'viable'.
Doctor will never get picked in the current balance because Doctor is at least 2 if not 3 categories weaker than Nurse. It's like you're trying to say : maybe fist wins at 100m if the other person with the gun is blindfolded.
Again: 'Top pick' =/= 'Viable'.
'Viable' for a killer is NOT "Can you beat Nurse?". 'Viable' means "Can you beat SURVIVORS?". By all metrics we have, it is evident that he can. We've not seen the best Doctor player in the world against the best survivor players in the world, but you're jumping to the immediate conclusion that he can't win based on nothing but your gut feeling.
To go with your 'fist' vs. 'gun' analogy: You're essentially claiming that, since a gun is a more effective weapon, it is physically impossible to kill anyone with a fist.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377547#Comment_3377547
It's probably far worse than you think. Did you know there is a way to fall and skip the recovery animation into a fast vault if a certain window is open? Needless to say it makes the main building an actual infinite if you know how to "shift tech".
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377556#Comment_3377556
-"ALL killers are perfectly viable"
Are you trying to say : All killers are perfectly viable at every possible level of play? That is clearly false. And the proof is that nobody has ever played Doctor in a tournament where they had unlimited access to Nurse/Spirit/Blight.
-"Just because you don't win every game doesn't mean a killer is not viable."
This is an empty statement with almost no value. The truth of this statement is : if you lose a game as killer then that does not mean the killer is bad/has no redeeming value. But the reverse is also true - Just because you beat up on some noobs using Doctor does not mean that killer chassis is viable at top levels of play.
I will remind you about a paraphrased quote from the Developer Dave : "DBD DLC killers are pay to lose".
Yes by the way he actually said something equivalent to those words (somewhere between 2016-2018 if I remember correctly).
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377545#Comment_3377545
-"Doctor was top performing killer at all ranks."
What are you trying to say with this statement? Please tell me if you believe any of the following are true
- Doctor is the best killer in the game
- Doctor has better movement/map pressure/quick chases/anti loop compared to Nurse/Blight
- Doctor has "amazing" addons compared to Nurse/Blight Best in slot options.
- Doctor can be played in a very strong way with no addons vs survivors with best in slot items.
- Doctor has an easy time playing against Comp level survivors vs SWFs on all maps.
Most people would say that all of these sentences are false (not only that but for Good Nurse/Blight players you could make the checklist with their name and everything is very possibly true) . If you agree that the majority of these statements are true (signaling that Doctor is in fact amazing) then that gives us the conclusion :"how many kills a killer gets is a poor reflection of the health of that killer".
This raises the question how could that be possible?
- Kills are a poor metric of killer performance. A better metric would look at how often the killer gets meaningful hits that lead to a down. A better metric would look at how quickly relative to generator speeds the killer downs survivors; a killer that trades 1.5 downs/hooks for 1 generator would be better than a killer that trades 1 hook for 1 generator. Another good metric to look at is how often does a strong killer interrupt heals, saves and generators vs good players?
- The doctor stats are possibly skewed in some way. How could that be possible? Recently I made the argument: why pick "fist" as a weapon when guns were an option. Some people play doctor because they like doctor and are good at doctor. Some people play doctor for the daily but are in a MMR pool where you can literally win with anything and have fun with meme builds. Some people never touch doctor because they realize Doctor is a "fist" and other killers are "guns". Therefore I present the question: Is it possible that the people who are playing Doctor regularly are some of the very best Doctors? Maybe for example almost nobody in a difficult MMR bracket plays Doctor except for the people who are really good. Furthermore what happens when we get the top 3 doctors in the world and have them play the best 3 survivor teams in the world. How do those doctor players compare to the best 3 Nurse/Blight Players in the world? The answer is : the Doctors get made to look foolish because Doctor is an inferior platform.
What are you trying to say with this statement?
I'm trying to say that Doctor was best performing killer at all ranks.
Sure, Blight and Nurse could probably beat out his performance with enough practice, but cross-referencing ease of access with performance resulted in Doctor being best performing killer.
As for the rest of your weird 'rebuttal', you're stuck in a logic loop.
- Nurse and Blight are the only viable killers
- Other killers have worse maximum potential than them
- Therefor other killers are not viable
- Therefor Nurse and Blight are the only viable killers
The issue you're having is that you're equating 'top pick' with 'viable', while there's a huge gulf between the two. Just because a killer isn't the incontestable best pick doesn't mean they're non-viable.
Therefore I present the question: Is it possible that the people who are playing Doctor regularly are some of the very best Doctors?
Quite possibly. But that doesn't change anything about the argument. Anything they can do with Doctor, you can, too. So if they can make Doctor perform well, so can you. Therefor, Doctor is, by definition, viable.
Furthermore what happens when we get the top 3 doctors in the world and have them play the best 3 survivor teams in the world
We don't know, because Doctor didn't get picked. For all we know, if someone had picked Doctor, they could've smoked them. But you immediately jump to the conclusion that Doctor is non-viable from him not getting picked in a tournament. Problem with that is that
A) No one plays tournament level anyway, so that's a really bad balancing benchmark.
B) Even the top scene can make mistakes or overlook things. Any other competitive game, you'll find, mostly in international competitions, that one pro scene gets surprised by picks from other pro scenes that they thought were non-viable or never even considered. A small example of this with DBD is that Otz, in his analysis of the killrate stats from October, was surprised to see Sadako perform so well. Now, Otz is a very competent player, but he did not see that coming and could not explain it. So if Otz were to play in a tournament, would he pick Sadako? Not likely. Would that mean Sadako is bad? Evidently not, considering she performs well at high ranks.
I also want to highlight this from your other post:
There is a relevant quote from Truetalent's stream today : " When I play killer against survivors on my level I get 2-3 hooks".
This is a really bizarre quote. If you can only get 2-3 hooks against them, it would seem to me that they are obviously not on your level, but above it. How exactly do you come to the conclusion, when you get absolutely demolished in a match, that you are just as skilled as the people who smoked you?
Is this why half the killer playerbase is in the top 5% killer ranks?
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@Akumakaji said:
And gen repair should get a -15% action speed per different gen that gets worked at, when splitting up.
Of course not, but neither is your idea solving the camping problem. I recently noticed that I need to tunnel hard from the start of the matches to even have a somewhat chance to be successful, survivors are just incredible efficient since the HUD overhaul and splitting up on gens is so painfully good. Its like the GOAT tactic for survivors, the foil to tunneling, and its equally as fun, but at the moment there is nothing we can do about, so seeth, mald, adapt.
"And gen repair should get a -15% action speed per different gen that gets worked at, when splitting up"
I actually did suggest something similar. The problem with the co-op gen speed penalty is that it makes the safest method of doing gens also by far the most effective.
It'd be a neat boost to the killer's ability to apply pressure and slowdown if survivors were pushed more to co-op gen repairs. Finding a gen that's being worked on would interrupt more survivors, and hooking a survivor would slow gen progress a bit more. This would create more dynamic tactical choices for survivors: play it safe and slow, or fast and risky.
The only problem with it is that it'd be a considerable buff to camping and tunnelling. Those need to be addressed because practically every nerf to survivors is a buff that disproportionately affects tunnelling and camping.
Those are the lynchpins to a lot of issues with the game.
EDIT: Fixed a typo. I know survivors splitting up on gens can feel pretty oppressive, but to call it 'fash' is maybe a bit much.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377501#Comment_3377501
I expect that a majority of the killer cast would be completely unplayable. Let's say someone picked Doctor for example; people are likely to laugh because you even tried to bring doctor. And then when you get utterly stomped that game will serve as a reminder forever as to why nobody has ever brought doctor to an "everything goes" arena.
IIRC, time before last when stats were released, Doctor was top performing killer at all ranks.
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@moondos said:
800-hour killer main here. First off, I want to say I WANT to love this game but holy hell it is just not fun anymore.
I've been trying to figure out why, but I think the biggest reason it is 'not fun' comes down to the word demoralizing. There are so many things that demoralize you when playing killer that it just makes you want to quit.
- Chases take too long / gens are too fast. Every single game I play the first chase always costs me 2 gens. I play at high MMR so the first down tends to take a good 2+ mins from the game launching as the survivor holds W and drops every pallet or runs to well-known strong loops. By the time I've hooked them 2 gens pop (because survivors spawn on gens) and another is on the way. Basically 50% of the survivor's objective is complete and I have about 10% done.
- Second chances. Dead hard, flashlights, pallet stuns, sabotage, body blocking the list goes on. Nothing is as demoralizing as finally outplaying a survivor only for a second chance mechanic to pop and all your effort is wasted. In high MMR if just one of these going off in the early game its gg so long as survivors don't do anything stupid.
- Playstyle. Because chases take so long, and gens go so fast you cannot afford to spread hooks or enjoy a long chase. The game is forcing killers into playing an unfun camping / tunnelling playstyle and I hate that. I want to chase and spread hooks; I want the survivors to have fun too but if you want to 'win' you can't. I feel like an a-hole ruining some guy's game because if I don't tunnel someone ASAP gens just go too fast.
- Maps. HOLY HELL maps are broken. Why are they so big? Why do they have so many interconnected loops? Why do god windows and pallets exist? Why are the hooks so damn far apart and so few? Why is the floor so cluttered so I can't see scratch marks? Why do survivors spawn literally next to gens? This is probably my biggest gripe with the game. The map design is beyond awful, and every new map seems to make it even worse.
- Survivor Icons. I really like that the survivors don't need voice chat to know what their fellow survivors are doing, and it was a very good change to the game, however, it makes survivors MUCH more efficient with their time, for example: If you see one of your survivor friends is on hook and the other 2 are doing gens, then you go to the rescue. No longer do 3 people turn up to unhook just to waste their time running all the way back. This means the 30 seconds wasted on 2 survivors doesn't happen and now 2/3 of a gen is complete thanks to the icons. I don't want this removed; it is a great change, but it makes the killers job that much harder. You are basically going against SWF level communication every match and the game is just not balanced around that.
In the end the most fun part about this game is the chase for both killer and survivor. The mind games, the outplays, the moonwalks, hiding your light, double backing, swing through pallet, the mix ups. It's so much fun to chase a good survivor but if you do you are throwing the game.
I'll probably be back in 6 months or so because nothing scratches the DBD itch like this game, so I hope things are a little bit better by then but let me know if your experience playing killer has similar frustrations to this or what your opinion is.
Dead hard, flashlights, pallet stuns, sabotage, body blocking the list goes on.
Props for this one. Very few killers actually point these out as issues (Dead Hard excepted, of course). Particularly flashlights and sabos are a huge part of what makes bully squads so awful to face.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3376044#Comment_3376044
"I just get annoyed" that's a you problem not a reason to change the game.
"liked by 1% of the player base" That's an assumption a very weak argument to make. People often over estimate opinions that agree with them and underestimate the reverse, there is a lot of good research on why and how we do this. Its worth reading.
I'm not saying all RNG is good but in this case the specific item being discussed isn't as impactful and game breaking and people like to bemoan and if it results in game loss then things were likely not going your way to begin with, so again a very weak premise you have here.
I still maintain that for an RNG element this one isn't that bad and it kinda makes sense in game terms so it's an acceptable thing. Which has been my point all along and what I clearly rationally explained.
"RNG runs counter to the value of the game, why because it represents a loss of player agency or license" Lets dissect this one objectively. Loss of license (or player agency) is one of the core mechanics in DBD, you spend time on the ground or hanging on a hook unable to engage in your objective, which is a complete loss of player agency.
One side's entire goal is to remove the agency of the opponent, so how does a minor mechanic that removes player agency run counter to the "value" of the game. Especially when the entire premise of the game is to impose, or avoid, loss of player agency.
By that logic the entire game's premise is flawed and needs to be fixed which begs the question why do you play it if you dislike it so much at its core?
This is what I mean when I say weak arguments, it's really poorly thought out and often hard to logically justify. I'm happy to entertain a differing opinion but make it a rational one. Take more time to think between posts if you need would be my advice.
In any case the point has been made on this one. I'd say its time to move on.
"I just get annoyed" that's a you problem not a reason to change the game.
You're changing the subject. You try to argue that this failing of skillchecks you never get adds tension in a horror-appropriate way. I point out that it doesn't, and that it just frustrates and annoys. It's not thematically appropriate.
"liked by 1% of the player base" That's an assumption a very weak argument to make. People often over estimate opinions that agree with them and underestimate the reverse, there is a lot of good research on why and how we do this. Its worth reading.
I'm still pretty confident that you are part of a very diminutive portion of the playerbase that is actually positive about this mechanic, because humanly, it doesn't make sense.
The only ones I can imagine would be on board with it would be killer mains who never play survivor and don't care what edge they get, as long as it helps them win. They'll probably be positive about it.
I'm not saying all RNG is good but in this case the specific item being discussed isn't as impactful and game breaking and people like to bemoan and if it results in game loss then things were likely not going your way to begin with, so again a very weak premise you have here.
Swinging a close, fair, and thrilling match on complete RNG is even more antithetical to good game design. Yes, it won't turn a stomp around, but it will specifically devalue the best kind of match more than anything else, which, to me, makes it worse.
That's also underestimating the impact as well. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, it can happen multiple times in succession, which can have an enormous impact, especially if it's a hotly contested gen. Imagine trying to break a 3-gen but getting set back extra, for no reason. That's going to drag the game out and quite likely make you lose.
Also also, there's entire killer perks that have less impact.
"RNG runs counter to the value of the game, why because it represents a loss of player agency or license" Lets dissect this one objectively. Loss of license (or player agency) is one of the core mechanics in DBD, you spend time on the ground or hanging on a hook unable to engage in your objective, which is a complete loss of player agency.
Except in this case, it is a failstate concluding an exercise in player agency, meant to enhance the stakes of the preceding chase. It's also building up the teamwork aspect of the game as it creates situations for other players to go for rescues and heals.
The RNG we're discussing is not that. It has no meat on its bones, it's just a randomised set-back for no reason and through no fault or influence of the survivor. There is no interaction, no engagement. It just happens and the survivor gets annoyed. It doesn't create new gameplay or enhance any other gameplay.
This is what I mean when I say weak arguments, it's really poorly thought out and often hard to logically justify. I'm happy to entertain a differing opinion but make it a rational one. Take more time to think between posts if you need would be my advice.
Well, we're running into a bit of a problem here...
I hope they don’t remove it because I think it’s fine and if it annoys people and tilts them into playing poorly to the point they lose entire games over it than more power to it.
And that is that you are literally rolling like a troll and you flat-out say you -want- to frustrate players.
From a game design perspective, you can't rationalise that. It's legitimately just making the game worse. You may get a kick out of it, but no one else does.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3375734#Comment_3375734
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3375707#Comment_3375707
Ah the ol how would you feel if they implemented this extreme hyperbolic scenario argument.
The reality is if the mechanic makes sense functionally and thematically almost any RNG can add a lil flavour to the game. One good example would be if you had a chance to trip when performing fast vaults that prevented you from getting the speed boost. Running full speed and jumping through a window is risky business and a small chance of failure would keep it interesting.
For your killer swing example, aim dressing does this to some extent, when you are amongst a bunch of trash or bushes there is a change your swing will autotune you to smack a barrel or a tree. This is appropriate as swinging around a weapon amongst a heap of obstacles should grant a chance of failure not present when swinging at someone in the open.
I don't need to rely on extreme examples to make my point just logical ones.
In the specific case being discussed here the 7% chance for an auto failing skill check when stopping a task. Maybe your objection stems from the fact that a skill check spawns. Perhaps just having a 7% chance of gen exploding or heal failing when stopping early representing the chances you fumble when stopping abruptly.
That way people wouldn't interpret it as an auto failing skill check and feel helpless when it happens, rather its just a thematic risk to stopping an action early. Which mixes up gameplay and is mechanically and thematically appropriate.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3375707#Comment_3375707
None of this really answers the points made. Re-read it please and try again or not I don't mind either way, basically you are going in circles and I've answered all the counter points you made already so unless you can offer further rational for them then there's not much point really.
The reality is if the mechanic makes sense functionally and thematically
This is the part that you don't get: This does not make any sense functionally or thematically.
Thematically, because DBD is not a horror game. And even if it were, this doesn't 'add tension'. When a gen blows up when I let go of it, I'm not feeling any kind of scary tension. I just get annoyed. Scary would be good, but this is just annoying. No one is getting scared over their gen blowing up on its own when they let it go.
And functionally, because this kind of game design is liked by probably less than 1% of the playerbase. Random chance to lose has always been a terrible element in any game that implements it, which is why no one does implement it. The only other instance I can think of was the tripping mechanic in Smash Bros Brawl, which people -loathed-, and it was removed in following instalments in the series.
Additionally, invasive RNG like that runs counter to the value of the game. Your example of a chance of fumbling a fast vault would directly reduce player agency. You can practice your looping and you can master a specific cell and know how to run it against every killer. But all that skill expression gets tossed out of the window when the game randomly dictates that you lose, through no fault of your own.
This component of the game is just plain awful and should be fixed.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3374464#Comment_3374464
Why should you have perfect result when “not doing anything wrong” as you put it.
A little RNG keeps things exciting and adds risk to even good decisions. Taking that away makes the game more bland and predictable. Which is a bad thing.
Furthermore the rationale for taking it away here is I don’t like missing the skill check when I choose to 99 something rather than finish it, get rid of it so I don’t t have to worry about it.
As for it not being a horror game last time I checked Texas chainsaw massacre, Halloween and nightmare on elm street weren’t romantic comedies.
”It had a horror setting but it’s not a horror game” I’m pretty sure a game where the goal is to not get slaughtered by a homicidal maniac could be called a horror game. Just because it’s devolved into a Scooby doo loopy chase farce over the years doesn’t mean it isn’t still in the horror genre. The only thing that makes dbd less of a horror game is the loss consequences for survivors when playing thus reducing game tension.
The more tense the survivor experience the more interesting the game. The RNG adds to that tension and is a good thing.
Why should you have perfect result when “not doing anything wrong” as you put it.
A 'perfect result' would be hitting the great skillcheck. We're talking about not getting punished for not failing something.
A little RNG keeps things exciting and adds risk to even good decisions. Taking that away makes the game more bland and predictable. Which is a bad thing.
How would you feel if we applied this logic everywhere? Whenever the killer swings, there's a 4% chance they drop their weapon instead. Whenever you try to drop a pallet, there's a chance you accidentally down yourself. Whenever you pick a hex perk, there's a 5% chance it just fails to spawn.
Furthermore the rationale for taking it away here is I don’t like missing the skill check when I choose to 99 something rather than finish it, get rid of it so I don’t t have to worry about it.
That's not at all what's being argued here! Practically no one 99s gens or heals. People 99 the exit gate, but guess what? That thing doesn't get skill checks!
As for it not being a horror game last time I checked Texas chainsaw massacre, Halloween and nightmare on elm street weren’t romantic comedies.
That's part of the 'horror setting, not horror game'.
”It had a horror setting but it’s not a horror game” I’m pretty sure a game where the goal is to not get slaughtered by a homicidal maniac could be called a horror game. Just because it’s devolved into a Scooby doo loopy chase farce over the years doesn’t mean it isn’t still in the horror genre. The only thing that makes dbd less of a horror game is the loss consequences for survivors when playing thus reducing game tension.
If that is all it takes to be a horror game, literally every MOBA is a horror game. Camazotz, Urgot, Pudge and Azmodan would make SMITE, LoL, DotA and HotS into horror games. Are they? Are they really?
Yes, it is in the horror genre. But it is not a horror game. The gameplay does not revolve around horror. Ask anyone who's played this for more than two hours how scary the game is and they'll rate it around a 3 out of 10.
The more tense the survivor experience the more interesting the game. The RNG adds to that tension and is a good thing.
RNG might, but not this. This just adds frustration and imbalance to a competitive PvP game.
But you know what? You can have what you want.
Just make an opt-in toggle for random events to screw you over, so you can get your RNG horror, and everyone else can just play the game.
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Part of the problem, IMO, is that one of the four score categories for survivors has almost no scoring events. The survival category has like two or three score events that give, what, a hundred points?
And then you get like 6K for escaping.
If survival had more scoring events, it'd even things out a bit.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3374967#Comment_3374967
Disagree.
Killers will tunnel as long as it's the easiest and most efficient strategy.
I'd go a step further and say that killers will tunnel as long as it is -an- easy and efficient strategy, not just the easiest or most efficient.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3375084#Comment_3375084
If they have to eat a DS every time they tunnel someone off hook, they're gonna stop doing that. They're going to feel like a fool if they just try to chew through anti-tunnelling measures.
Then the slugging begins. They will adapt. Imagine killers deliberately dumping survivors in corners to make it harder for their teammates to heal them. Things could get much worse than they are now.
Saying they'll do it out of spite is like saying someone will stab themselves in the spleen to annoy another person.
Have you ever heard the saying "Cut off your nose to spite your face"? People do stupid and self-destructive acts out of petty spite all the time, for centuries.
We used to have better anti-tunnel, and there used to be less tunnelling because of it. These anti-tunnel things work, we already know they do, they just got removed because BHVR.
You had one perk, which is still in the game, just weaker than it was before. Along with its nerf was a ton of other perk buffs and core game features added that are anti-tunneling, yet tunneling only got worse? Wonder why all this tunneling is happening in spite of all these anti-tunneling additions. It's weird, isn't it?
Then the slugging begins. They will adapt. Imagine killers deliberately dumping survivors in corners to make it harder for their teammates to heal them. Things could get much worse than they are now.
They're not winning either way. Tunnelling needs to not be an avenue to victory. If its as cumbersome to the killer as it is to the target, most of it will be gone.
You had one perk, which is still in the game, just weaker than it was before. Along with its nerf was a ton of other perk buffs and core game features added that are anti-tunneling, yet tunneling only got worse? Wonder why all this tunneling is happening in spite of all these anti-tunneling additions. It's weird, isn't it?
Yeah, about 50% weaker. And it was already not a good perk. It was just a safeguard. It did one thing, now it's bad at that one thing, no one brings it anymore because why would you? DS now fails as a tunnelling deterrent.
None of the other perk buffs did anything against tunnelling. We got baseline BT, which isn't good, and what was supposed to replace DS is OTR.
Except OTR is hard-countered by tunnelling due to baseline BT, and is actually better used to bodyblock a non-tunnelling killer.
So yeah, tunnelling got a major buff in 6.1 to be significantly more effective as the biggest anti-tunnel measure got effectively deleted and subsequently we got more tunnelling which no one could see coming of course.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3374738#Comment_3374738
Adding cons won't do anything. Killers will keep tunneling, and trying to punish them for it will likely just make them double down on tunneling out of spite. Beating them with a stick or putting them in timeout isn't going to fix it.
You will never get rid of tunneling and camping. Just like you will never get rid of bully squads.
Yea, no. If they have to eat a DS every time they tunnel someone off hook, they're gonna stop doing that. They're going to feel like a fool if they just try to chew through anti-tunnelling measures. Saying they'll do it out of spite is like saying someone will stab themselves in the spleen to annoy another person.
We used to have better anti-tunnel, and there used to be less tunnelling because of it. These anti-tunnel things work, we already know they do, they just got removed because BHVR.
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@Crowman said:
It's not that tunneling needs cons. It's that not tunneling needs to actually reward the killer.
Having 3 survivors with 1 hook each means nothing compared to 1 survivor with 3 hooks. There's no reason for killers to spread hooks, because there's no benefit to it.
No matter what changes get made to tunneling, it is still better to make the game a 3v1 than to spread hooks out.
"It's not that tunneling needs cons. It's that not tunneling needs to actually reward the killer."
No. Tunnelling needs cons, otherwise it's just going to continue. Changing it from 'tunnelling is an over-effective strategy' to 'survivors are screwed either way' is not the solution.
Not to mention that killers don't necessarily tunnel for the win, either, but rather to ruin a specific player's game.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3372704#Comment_3372704
Lets look at the elements that make this an uncomfortable outcome.
I happens at random - fear the unknown.
I has consequences you can't avoid - Fear the reprisal
There are no positives about it - Fear the consequences.
Nothing in this setting comes without risk making it a great survival horror experience.
"Cancelling an interaction for the benefit of your team should not have an invisible risk attached to it"... Seriously I mean just re-read this in the context of what you are asking for. I want to do stuff risk free in a horror survival setting.
Actions contain risk and that risk is healthy for the game given the theme.
If you want a risk free happy experience then a horror environment might not be the setting for it.
Its like going to see a scary movie with lots of gore and being upset that you felt uncomfortable when you were paranoid about being scared and seeing lots of gore.
Its a perfectly positive mechanic in the context of this game's setting and induces the very emotions that a horror setting is meant to induce.
Stop asking for the horror experienced to be watered down because you don't like the risk involved.
"I'm not scared when I'm trying to 99 a team mates heal" ok great you aren't scared... but you are trying to 99 a mechanic and want to be able to do that without any form of risk or repercussion,
"I want 0 chance of failure when I'm trying to do something." Doesn't sound like a good change to me. The game doesn't have to adapt to your inability to handle failure. And yes being annoyed at what happens (as you describe yourself) is a you problem not a game problem.
DBD is not a horror game. It uses horror for its setting, worldbuilding and aesthetics, but it's not a horror game.
"I want 0 chance of failure when I'm trying to do something."
That is not at all what's being argued. A better summary would be 'I want zero chance of failure when I'm not doing anything wrong'.
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3374341#Comment_3374341
All those perks have arguably more strings attached than a simple boon does, on top of only affecting one person. A boon affects the whole team.
The only one with more strings attached is We'll Make It, since it requires an unhook. BK, DM and EC are all total freebies.
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3374233#Comment_3374233
8s per heal without any strings attached as long as you are in a boon is insanely strong.
"As long as you are in a boon" IS the strings attached. 14+ seconds to set it up and whatever time it takes to get to the boon area. Say it takes four seconds to move into the boon range, you've only saved 4 seconds. You'd need FOUR heals in that boon to get a minor increase to efficiency that would pale in comparison to Botany Knowledge, Desperate Measures, We'll Make It, heck, even Empathic Connection would shave off more time with heals like that.
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@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3372225#Comment_3372225
Ehm ehm *clear throat*... Adrenaline, basekit BT, off the records, DS, unbreakable, any kind of exhaustion perk, power struggle and (despite being a niche perk) mettle of man... One thing is saying that survivors have some situational perks that maybe couldn't be considered true 2nd chances because there are some events that must happen in order to trigger them, another one is saying that survivors have only dead hard as a 2nd chance...
Adrenaline requires all five gens to be done under specific circumstances to count as a 'second chance' perk, if that's your concern, you have nothing to complain about.
Exhaustion perks aren't 'second chance', they're all part of the first chance, with the exception of Dead Hard.
Power Struggle and Mettle of Man are both unbelievably garbage.
BT, Off the Record, DS and Unbreakable are all only there to try and make sure that one down isn't the end of the game for survivors. If these are your 'second chance' problem perks, quit the game. Survivors get three hook states for a reason, if you can't deal with a second chance, just quit.
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@DemocRat said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3374052#Comment_3374052
My suggestion doesn't prolong the game, but it punish those who do prolong the game by sitting at the exit gate to t-bag the killer.
It actually doesn't change anything. You still have to come over to smack them, with or without your suggestion.