Firellius
Firellius
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@shalo said:
How about just making Endurance not work for Protection hits?
This would fully disable BT, as any hit taken within that time will likely count as a protection hit.
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Going by the last stats BHVR released, the game is slightly killer-sided.
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@hailxsatanxeveryxday said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396969#Comment_3396969
You're missing the point.
There are still lots of excellent killer perks, and most of them are pretty decent at accomplishing whatever it is they're trying to accomplish. But those don't help low-tier killers or killers with little-to-no mobility who needed some kind of gen regression meta.
A lot of those killers still would've had a hard time with no gen regression perks left, but maybe the anti-healing meta would have balanced it out. But there's no anti-healing meta anymore, and Dead Hard got a placebo nerf instead of the real nerf it was finally supposed to get, so those killers are left high and dry.
Leaving the OC/CoB combo out of it (which could be overpowered at times), CoB, Eruption, and Pop were all in good places before the coming changes. None of them were great on their own, but they had synergy, and you could use three perk slots to have a chance at doing heavy damage to a gen at least a couple of times a game, plus maybe some mediocre information on the side (I say mediocre because you could easily do half a gen before seeing a skill check a lot of times, and if you hit a great skill check, CoB gave no information, and there were plenty of times when a gen I kicked 30 seconds ago suddenly popped out of nowhere without a loud noise notification).
The only change CoB and OC needed were to not stack with each other.
Leaving a handful of regression perks in the weakened state they already were would have allowed them to be a viable playstyle even as mid-tier perks, but now they're all C and D-tier garbage. And survivors kept their favorite perk at the end of the day.
tl;dr:
No amount of Starstruck and NOED being good killer perks helps Ghostface keeps three gens from popping by the time he's gotten two hooks.
The issue isn't that these were "the only good killer perks", the issue is that they were the only good regression perks left. Imagine if Dead Hard was given its original, intended nerf, and every other exhaustion perk was given a 300 second cooldown on top of it. Every single perk in the entire category is gone.
And that was the point, but the meta that was supposed to replace them was stomped before it was ever given a chance.
I think if you go back up the thread, you'll notice that what you are talking about is actually a left turn in the conversation somewhere. The OP complains survivors got buffed and killers got nerfed. People point out that survivors got nerfed, to which the OP replied 'but survivors have other perks'.
So do killers.
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@imakepeoplehateme said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396960#Comment_3396960
You are making bold assumptions about my playstyle,i don't follow the meta spewed out by content creators. I seldom use gen kicking perks regardless of their viability,i didn't use pop back in the day and have never used CoB or Overcharge.But at the same time im not going to use Leverage,Remember me , I'm all ears or Coup only because Otz made a video about it.These are all terrible perks,and you not admitting it shows your bias,its like saying no mither is good because you can't get slugged,and you have deadhard(or used to have) vs instadown killers,its a stretch to say its good.
Regarding your min-maxing point,the survivors i am facing don't lose any sleep over running the sweatiest builds out there,but as killer we are slowing losing the ability to match theirs with every patch.You guys kept all your strong perks to a decent degree or got better ones,while the killer meta has been going down for years.
Also how aren't the survivor perks mentioned beyond strong?
WoO gives you consistent information at a glance,it turns mediocre loopers into great ones,and allows experienced players to always have a resource to use vs a killer.I would say its a necessary perk in solo queue.
For the People is effective versus a tunneling killer,you know the most efficient strategy to win games.The downside is non existent when the killer cannot afford to go for you.(On top of its endgame capabilities)
Deliverance,as long as you play safe and can coordinate with your team for someone else to take agro and for you to unhook,allows you to complete destroy a killers pressure,since no one needs to unhook you,on top of destroying killer endgame strategies.
Decesive is still strong,it seems to me like you are the one contributing to the echo chamber,unable to form your own oppinion.It doesn't let you make free distance,and can't be used in endgame.Still strong vs tunneling killers,once again a very prominent strategy,if you have a team bodyblocking for you this perk can be especially brutal to face.Its strength is in it's pairing with Dh.
Also how isn't reassurance complety bonkers?.They took Kinship,and made it better in every single way.
I'm not even affected by the nerfs as the only slowdown i use are DL and CI anyway,since the rest are inconsistent or not my playstyle and yet even though this patch is a buff for me,i am able to objectively look at the fact that killer is being treated unfairly.
These are all terrible perks
Not really keen on accepting that from someone who thinks there's only 3 good killer perks and they're all getting nerfed this patch. Did you ever consider that maybe your perspective is a bit warped because you're used to overtuned perks?
Also how aren't the survivor perks mentioned beyond strong?
Windows of Opportunity does almost nothing for a competent player. For the People is insanely situational and, in probably 49/50 matches will not benefit the survivors. Deliverance has way too many hooks and eyes for a relatively minor benefit that's further cut down outside of well-coordinated swiffer play, and Decisive Strike is the most egregious of them all.
DS got trimmed neatly into the position of anti-tunnel to the point where it's effectively in the killer's control, 100%. The -killer- has to put in effort to get this perk to fire. And now, when it does fire, its effect is pretty much negligible. So not only does it very rarely come into play, its effect is also terrible.
'But you can pair it with other endurance!'
Now I'm sinking two perk slots into being able to do something when the killer tunnels, leaving me with only half a build if the killer doesn't! What a steal!
Also how isn't reassurance complety bonkers?.They took Kinship,and made it better in every single way.
And what was Kinship's value, exactly? How good was that perk?
Seriously, stop comparing perks amongst each other and assess them on their own merits. Reassurance, in this regard, is not a strong perk just because Kinship is worse. Reassurance has limited value in very specific situations. It could've been good, but then it got gutted before it hit live in order to protect camping.
i am able to objectively look at the fact that killer is being treated unfairly.
Every single person crying about killer nerfs also thinks themselves objective when they do so, including the folks that cry about survivor stuff being OP while posting 2-gen 4Ks as 'proof'. Probably about 90% of them claim to be 'top MMR', and a similar number will probably answer that killer has never once been buffed.
The game is way more balanced than people make it out to be. It may not be balanced to a plateau that people like, but it is balanced.
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@imakepeoplehateme said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396939#Comment_3396939
You are just wrong.Killers are ridden with situation perks that seem better than they actually are.No one is using Iron maiden or remember me in a serious game to win.I would argue after the next patch goes through the META perks(MOST EFFECTIVE TACTICS AVAIABLE),not strong or fun,will be in abundance for survivors compared to killers.
Killers meta perks are:
Noed,DL,CI,Sloppy,no way out.You could also argue for Pop,Bamb,Lethal,STBFL but they aren't quite as strong as they are fun.And then there are a lot of situation perks that are good on 2 killers,or that seem better than they actually are.
On the other side however:
OtR,UB,Adren,Deli,Prove, Reassurance,Sprint burst,lithe,Distortion,WoO,For the people,Resilience,Decisie strike as VERY powerfull,top of the notch options.If you play solo queue then Kindread,and bond are amazing.Aditionaly although not the best strong options can be found in BT,Balanced,Overcome,Will make it,We're gonna live forever,Streatwise,Built to last,Shadowstep and CoH,Lucky break.
I also believe Dh will still be used,but it will still be an A tier perk at worst after the changes.
You CANNOT argue that killers have worse perks at the moment compared to survivors.
You completely missed the point. Why are you so obsessed with min-maxing that you write off any perk that isn't the absolute incontestable universal best-pick as being immediately non-viable?
And then you pad out the survivors' meta list (not even just viability, but -meta- picks) with such bangers as Reassurance, Deliverance, Windows of Opportunity, For the People and Decisive Strike.
Have you ever, at any point, attempted to run any killer perk that didn't get handed to you by a youtube video with a big red arrow in the thumbnail?
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@imakepeoplehateme said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396645#Comment_3396645
The perks you are describing only became meta or usable by lack of competition.Perks don't really matter until you verse strong teams,the kind that bodyblock at the right time and do all gens in 5 minutes.
Plaything,DevHop,Rember me,Gift of Pain,I'm all ears,Iron maiden,Leverage,Make your choice,Remember me are terrible perks,this tells me you either don't play killer or are just running meme builds.
Floods of Rage is only competitive on nurse.Bamboozle is indeed strong but only m1 killers can use it(half the roster).
NOED and Deadlock(i would also add corrupt) are indeed strong perks,but it feels like all killers have left.No way out gets outshadowed by noed which both allows you to conclude a strong game while also providing a comback mechaninc (since its uselss if you are losing)
Meta and usable are drastically different things, and no perk ever becomes 'usable' through removal of alternatives. No matter how much other perks get nerfed, for example, Red Herring will never be a good, worthwhile perk.
Plaything,DevHop,Rember me,Gift of Pain,I'm all ears,Iron maiden,Leverage,Make your choice,Remember me are terrible perks,this tells me you either don't play killer or are just running meme builds.
I do play killer. I also play survivor though, so my standards for what is a 'bad perk' seem to be considerably different from yours, considering survivors have such bangers as the aforementioned Red Herring, or No Mither, or Up the Ante, or Slippery Meat, or Plunderer's Instinct, or Ace in the Hole, or Calm Spirit, or Left Behind, or Sole Survivor, Autodidact, Breakout, Power Struggle, Corrective Action, Visionary, Technician...
Lots of these perks are trash and not worth using. Some of them will hardly ever fire, some of them don't give any value when they do fire. This is extremely common among survivor perks, but significantly more rare among killer perks. Does that mean all killer perks are fantastic? No, of course not. Some are truly just worse than others.
But just because Desperate Measures, at max, gives only 2% more healing speed than Botany Knowledge does 100% of the time doesn't mean Desperate Measures itself is bad. It still generates very consistent value, and can spike to strong value. It is worth using, even if Botany Knowledge is pretty objectively a better pick.
Now, for survivors, their perks are much more directly comparable, since survivors are all just reskins of one another.
But if there's a killer perk that's just pretty unconditionally best-in-slot to such a point that it makes you think other, perfectly serviceable perks are -unusable-, across the plethora of different killers with different playstyles, then don't you think that's indicative of a problem?
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@imakepeoplehateme said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396572#Comment_3396572
No there aren't because they all got nerfed.Jolt/surge is the new peta for gen defense,a perk only m1 killers can use,that may or may not hit a gen,for what 8%? Pain res is to situational,what if you don't get a scurge hook?What if the gen you are hitting doesn't have a lot of progress because they did it in your face or it got blocked by deadlock,its hard to justifying running it.Pop can only be used by blight or other high mobility killers as an aggressively mid perk.DMS got nerfed a while back due to its synergy with pain res,and it did not receive any compensation since it works on two killers.Thana is in the same boat,it got buffed when no one asked for it and got hit with a harsher nerf than its original self for no reason(only good on 2 killers).Eruption was a good perk that got overbuffed for no reason once again just to be gutted.
The only strong gen perks remaining are Deadlock and Corrupt intervention,meanwhile CoH and Dh are still serviceable(reset zone abused by swf dead in solo)(Dh can be used twice per game instead of 3 times still strong).Medkits still serve the same purpose of healing yourself faster and alone,you just can bring a 3 heal medkit anymore big deal.Also if you truly believe Dh is dead than dw,other exhaustion perks exist that are on a similar level,meanwhile regression got gutted.
No there aren't because they all got nerfed
No, they didn't. Stop staring yourself blind on gen regression. You've got Plaything/Pentimento, Devour Hope, No Way Out, Remember Me, Gift of Pain, Floods of Rage, Deadlock, Bamboozle, NOED, I'm All Ears, Iron Maiden, Lethal Pursuer, Leverage, Make Your Choice, and so, so many other perks that are perfectly serviceable but don't see use because everyone got so incredibly obsessed with gen regression.
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@Ἥφαιστος said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396536#Comment_3396536
... There are other perks besides Dead Hard? Hello? Lithe or Sprint Burst??
Gen rushing is still going to be a problem who cares if medkits getting nerfed when you have toolboxes hahahaha!!
... There are other perks besides Dead Hard? Hello? Lithe or Sprint Burst??
There's also tons of different perks besides the ones that got hit on the killer side.
Seriously, why are people acting like nerfs to Pain Res are the same as a basekit nerf? If the perk is that damn ubiquitous, isn't it basically the killer equivalent of DH?
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@Chordyceps said:
I think it's mainly because hex perks are generally more powerful than boons.
Boon effects are things like: heal faster, recover from dying state, 2% speed boost, hide scratch marks. And these are in a small area.
Hexes do things like expose everyone for a minute, make survivors instakillable, regress gens automatically, and significantly slow gen progress. Also these effects are global.
Also keep in mind that in order to disable a hex, survivors need to find it and then spend 14 seconds on it, meaning that if the perk gets disabled, it's got a little bit of slowdown to it.
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Scourge hooks should reshuffle any time any survivor is put on any hook. This prevents repeatedly using the same scourge hook and prevents all scourge hooks from being permanently huddled together in one distant corner of the map.
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@illNicola said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394859#Comment_3394859
I don't see where you read this, and I think you dreamed it. I never said that survs with 25% win rate should face a killer with 75-100% win rate. Survs with a range like 70%-95% win rate should face killers with the same range of win rate, the problem is that survs have the advantages with this because they can break the game with things that shave like 70 seconds from a gen. I'm saying that the challenge shouldn't be based on how fast you make your objectives, it's not a speed run, it should be based only around on how you play.
Now, if you keep saying that I said "Oh but you said that survs with 25% should face killers with 70-100% win rate" I want you to prove it, because I never said such a thing
"If you're good, you're supposed to get at least 3k every match"
What did you mean with that, if not that you think the game should be aimed at a 75/25% winrate for killers/survivors?
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@illNicola said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394731#Comment_3394731
If you are good it is right that you face people at your same skill level, but it is right that you have the same chances of winning. Currently, 4 survs that each have the same skill as a killer have a better advantage, because the game is unbalanced in their favor and, even if the killer plays it better than them, the survs still have an advantage because they manage to make gen in very few seconds. If you give same possibilities to win to both killers and survs, you find yourself in a game that rewards which parts play better
That's not what you're arguing for though. You're arguing that, all else even, survivors should have a 25% win rate, with killers getting 75%-100% winrate.
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@illNicola said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393974#Comment_3393974
If you're good you're supposed to get at least 3k every match. Before genrush was a problem I never tunneled/camped, all matches 4k. Now also if I play well and I don't tunnel, I find myself with lots of hooks, but 1k max 2k.
How on earth would that work? If you're good, and you're up against equally qualified opponents, how is the game supposed to be balanced if one side has a 25% winrate, and the other has a 100% 'win' rate, with a good chance of being a total landslide victory? That doesn't sound balanced to me.
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@Mr2ThumbsFGC said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394583#Comment_3394583
The reason why they do a lot of things:
Survivors whined and complained and cried until it got added. But there's a reason why perks like Bond exist... because you're not supposed to know where everyone is at all times for free. There's a reason map's exist... because you're not supposed to know where all the gens are precisely located for free.
There's a reason why perks like Fogwise or Spinechill exist... because you're not supposed to know where the killer is for free. But SWFS get all these things for free, and get to run a bunch of extra perks on top of it. They're the only ones who get info perks for free.
So you're saying it was not, in fact, unintended?
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@Mr2ThumbsFGC said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394565#Comment_3394565
Lol. No, they're not. Most SWFs are formed on Discord in order to win more games. Ffs. The intellectual dishonest here is staggering. This idea that most SWFs are just trying to have fun with their friends is straight BS.
And even if it weren't, they still get a competitive advantage using outside, unintended software that makes the game pure ez mode.
If it was unintended, why did the devs add SWF in the first place?
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There was a thread a while ago where someone asked for suggestions for a bunch of underused perks: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/363344/how-would-you-buff-these-perks
Sat down and shook some ideas out, off the cuff. They're not perfect, but IMO, the highlights are:
Mettle of Man
Complete rework: Every protection hit you take grants you a token. If you have at least one token, you gain a 3% haste benefit. If you have at least 2 tokens, you gain a 25% increase to Great skillcheck zones. At 3 tokens, gain endurance. Taking a hit at 3 tokens will consume all tokens. This gives the perk some additional, more achievable value, instead of being a full on all-or-nothing perk.
Boon: Dark Theory
Radius increased from 24 meters to 32 meters. If multiple boons are equipped, all boons will operate on the worst parameters. This perk's effect is hard to bolster without going overboard, but a radius increase makes it easier to apply.
Corrective Action
Completing a cooperative action with 3 or more tokens remaining grants you and your cooperator 10% haste for 10 seconds, and consumes two tokens. This one's tricky to buff because its function is so niche, but if you're to be babysitting another survivor and they're doing well, some encouragement might put some pep in their step. This also gives it more value under pressure.
Claustrophobia
Reduce radius to 26 meters, but every generator completed increases the radius by 6 meters. Upon the third and fifth generator, this perk also blocks pallets.
Distressing
Increases Lullaby radius as well, and causes the Lullaby to count as Terror Radius for the purpose of other perks. Distressing by itself might seem weak, but its increased terror radius makes it harder for survivors to read the killer's position, giving it some stealth potential. Its other aspect is that it is a synergy perk for things like Coulrophobia and Dissolution, but that doesn't work on killers with a Lullaby. This fixes that.
Insidious
Increases gen regression speed of gens within 20 meters by 50% while active. Does not work when within 20 meters of a hooked survivor. This gives it potential to use a generator as bait, rather than a hooked survivor.
Blood Echo
Hitting a survivor marks them with Blood Echo. When hooking a survivor, all marked survivors become Exhausted for 45 seconds. If they are injured, they are also afflicted with Haemorrhage and Mangled. Current issue is just that it's hard to get a hook in while survivors are injured, so it needs to work differently. This makes it much easier to get its value to actually proc.
Unnerving Presence
Reduces the size of great skillcheck zones by 100%. Gives it more definitive, consistent value across skill ranks.
Predator
While within 6 meters of a survivor's scratch marks, this perk charges up. Once it is fully charged, it reveals the aura of the tracked survivor for 6 seconds. This improves its tracking potential and might make it useful in chase.
Bloodhound
While within 6 meters of any bloodpool, this perk charges up. Once fully charged, gain a 5% haste bonus for 10 seconds. This improves its functionality when chasing a wounded survivor.
Shadowborn
Reduces terror radius by 25%. While there are no survivors in your terror radius, you gain 10% haste. This effect persists for 3 seconds after a survivor enters your terror radius. Shadowborn is disabled while under the effect of Undetectable. The FoV thing seems like it should be basekit, which means Shadowborn needs a new purpose. I decided to make it a sneakier perk, while also giving it some map traversal potential.
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@Hannacia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393667#Comment_3393667
My question here is.. why do survivor perks need something worth to be running for? Theme with killers have been to destroy their perks so they won't be used anymore. So why can't they do the same for survivors? This new CoH is almost as broken as the old one. I can see it becoming an issue again. They were too scared to go through with the DH nerf so they ..balanced it. Making it so we will again see 8 DH in 1 match.
So answer why can't they give the survivor perks that are clearly overused and overperfoming the same treatment they have given killers?
Point to these metashake ups is to make killers and survivors use different perks, but obviously it only affects killers since survivors will just continue using the same perks as they do now.
So you want both sides to be treated poorly, as opposed to both sides being treated better?
@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393667#Comment_3393667
We´ll see. CoH, with its current 50% bonus healing speed, can currently perform extremely quick heals in combination with med kits and other healing perks. You usually only have to set it up once or twice at the start of the match.
I was actually surprised, that i never see people stacking healing perks to altruistically heal. But maybe that changes with the patch.
I like to run mega heal-stack builds (not even necessarily CoH, it's not impressed me that much, and never with medkits), and while it can pay off and be pretty fun, there's also plenty of matches where I just don't get an opportunity to heal others, leaving those perks burning a hole in my pocket. That kind of coordination is still a bit of a pain, particularly for solo queue, so I can understand why people aren't too keen on running healing perks.
CoH feels more bluntly impactful, so it's a more popular pick, even if it isn't necessarily better.
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@Rizzo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393664#Comment_3393664
I think it was pretty straight forward, but I'll pass the feedback on.
It is mostly straightforward, but I can see how, for example,
'Activates when someone unhooks you, or you unhook yourself'
can be read as
'Activates when someone unhooks you, or you unhook (someone) yourself'.
I don't know if it's grammatically appropriate, but in colloquialisms I can see this happen.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393513#Comment_3393513
Off the Record is the most busted perk they ever released if you ignore og Mettle of Man. The perk has much less restrictions than old DS, which people already agreed it was busted af. People think that just because the killer didn't decide to tunnel you, you aren't getting value of OTR. That is not true, Off the Record mutes you so it may be a deliberate decision of the killer not bothering with you since you have that perk. In which case, you are already getting value out of it. The only way I can see someone saying 100% that OTR was useless for them is if they died on the first hook, or never found the killer for the entirety of 80 seconds after getting unhooked. As it is now, Off the Record is a free health state, basically a Second Wind without the broken activation time you have to go through.
Off the Record is the most busted perk they ever released if you ignore og Mettle of Man.
Not really. I mean, it's definitely stronger than DS used to be, but that doesn't make it powerful. It's very restricted in its use, demanding inefficiency from the survivor if they want to put it to use outside of its intended use, and that intended use is entirely in the killer's control.
The perk has much less restrictions than old DS, which people already agreed it was busted af.
If you, like me, meant to say DH there (I royally messed up in the post you quoted, freely admit that), then yeah, old DH was pretty busted.
If you're talking about the DS prior to 6.1, then no, no one agreed it was 'busted af'. Pre-6.1 DS was incredibly healthy for the game since it basically blocked a perk slot for survivors in exchange for blocking tunnelling for the killer and doing barely anything else. It took the spikes out of both sides and slowed trials down, which is what both sides are constantly begging for. The DS stun duration nerf is one of the worst changes DBD has ever gone through.
That is not true, Off the Record mutes you so it may be a deliberate decision of the killer not bothering with you since you have that perk. In which case, you are already getting value out of it.
No, you're not, because you're not allowed to do anything to further your team's interests if you want to keep OTR. The moment you do -anything- to help the survivors, you lose OTR. You're a non-entity as long as you have OTR on, outside of bodyblocking, which is admittedly unfair to the killer.
The only way I can see someone saying 100% that OTR was useless for them is if they died on the first hook, or never found the killer for the entirety of 80 seconds after getting unhooked.
Or you got hit within 10 seconds of being unhooked, in which case OTR becomes blocked, ironically making tunnelling harder the counter to the anti-tunnelling perk.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392417#Comment_3392417
If you don´t see the issue of a 100% CoH heal, that stacks with Med kits and other perks, then i really don´t know what to tell you.
Streamers pointed out extreme cases of 6 minute heals, that we will never encounter in a real match. Less than 5 second heals are however effectivly doable by SWF that stack healing perks.
But i guess, no issue in that.
You're not going to get 100% out of CoH though, due to the 14 second time investment of setting it up, and the restricted range. As it was, the 50% was simply not giving the perk any value, making it a flat worse version of Botany Knowledge. It needed something to be worth running.
This is not what I would've chosen, but I think it does work.
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@Rizzo said:
Unhooking yourself means freeing yourself from the hook by kobe'ing or with Deliverance, so it is only up to two uses per game.
I suppose the wording is a bit ambiguous. Maybe pass on the note to in future use 'self-unhook' as a separate term for that?
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393066#Comment_3393066
"-You're not supposed to benefit from DH as killer, it's a survivor perk! Do you expect every survivor perk to be balanced to No Mither/Autodidact levels?"
Why does Dying Light buff survivors. DH could have been balanced around something like : using it gives the killer an emblem that does whatever for the rest of the game. Maybe it could be a 1% permanent movement speed boost if they hit you when you use DH the first time.
-"DH's effect being an exhaustion perk is a con to DH. Remember that you can also get endurance from BT, OTR, and MoM."
MoM was stupid broken and they nerfed it. DH has needed years to let survivors abuse it before it was tapped on the wrist. Nobody uses OTR with DH as it ends up with exactly the same result - the killer just hits you 1/2 a second after your feet hit the floor from a hook. That's what I do.
"How do you want to balance this out if you took away the on-hit sprint from DH? "
Remove the movement speed effect on DH then it will only work when you DH to make a vault or pallet. There will be no more "free distance" from DH. The only distance you get is with the recovery time of the killer.
Since you seem so keen on STBFL countering DH this makes the most sense.
Why does Dying Light buff survivors. DH could have been balanced around something like : using it gives the killer an emblem that does whatever for the rest of the game. Maybe it could be a 1% permanent movement speed boost if they hit you when you use DH the first time.
Oh, you actually ARE suggesting survivor perks should help killers more than survivors. Okay. That's... Uh... That's a hot take and a half there, buddy.
MoM was stupid broken and they nerfed it. DH has needed years to let survivors abuse it before it was tapped on the wrist. Nobody uses OTR with DH as it ends up with exactly the same result - the killer just hits you 1/2 a second after your feet hit the floor from a hook. That's what I do.
Then what's the problem with DH if it never fires anyway?
Remove the movement speed effect on DH then it will only work when you DH to make a vault or pallet. There will be no more "free distance" from DH. The only distance you get is with the recovery time of the killer.
So then why should I pick this perk over Lithe or Sprintburst which will net me similar amounts of time without any strings attached?
Also, what the heck do you mean 'free'? You have to predict a killer's hit, and it costs a health state, that's not free, bud.
Since you seem so keen on STBFL countering DH this makes the most sense.
I'm not 'keen on it', just pointing out STBFL already counters DH.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392828#Comment_3392828
DS - Still good, just outclassed by Off the Record. Off the Record has 20 seconds of more usage, can be used twice per match and can't be countered by slugging. It is old DS on steroids.
Iron Will - I don't know if this is a bug, but survivors still feel like they have 0 sound when they have this perk. I can't say for sure because I don't see it enough, but when I see it survivors still feel muted.
CoH - Still good. You only need one survivor to have the perk for the whole team to get benefit for something that is always useful, which is healing.
DH - Still incredibly strong. Now instead of using it on all 3 of your chases in a match, you only get to use it two times. Wow, big deal.
On the killer side, almost every single thing that was remotely good.
Ruin became basically a hindrance for the killer, you can't kick gens to apply other perks and survivors get free Soul Guard for a minimal drawback.
Pop Goes the Weasel has a extremely limited usage window for a perk who only gives significant regression if the generator is almost fully completed.
Pain Resonance now has 4 usages for a regression that Pop gave you infinitely.
Thanatophobia has an insignificant amount of slowdown unless you can keep all 4 survivors injured all the time. And even so, it isn't a good amount of slowdown.
Overcharge was never good to begin with. What made it decent was the ability to stack with Call of Brine. By itself, it was a thrash perk.
Call of Brine now gives a insignificant amount of regression. Before, it gave 50% on the speed of a solo for regression, which meant that for every two seconds of regression, you only had to repair one.
Dead Man's Switch was only used when pairing with Pain Resonance for the ability to get instant usage out of it. Not only it's usage time got nerfed, which made it more dependant on PR to work, but the survivor HUD changes made this perk completely ineffective, since you could avoid getting your gen blocked just by looking at the HUD.
Eruption wasn't considered good when it was released. It was only being used when it got a slight buff on the incapacitated time and the other gen defence perks got nerfed. Then, they decided to removed the incapacitated effect altogether, which was the main attractive of the perk.
The *only* killer perk that survived the nerfs until today is Corrupt Intervention. What happens to killer meta is that every time something gets nerfed, killers switch to second strongest thing available and so forth. It is never about a new release that outclasses stuff, but something that was meh and turned good when it's better counterparts gets destroyed. That doesn't happen on survivor, Dead Hard is still the most used perk after half a decade, DS just got buffed but as a new disguise that is Off the Record and Borrowed Time got made basekit. Not only that but other broken stuff still gets released giving more variety to an already big pool, so it is with CoH, Hyperfocus and Windows of Opportunity.
DS - Still good, just outclassed by Off the Record. Off the Record has 20 seconds of more usage, can be used twice per match and can't be countered by slugging. It is old DS on steroids.
Okay, but OTR is already not good, considering its restrictions, and DS has worse restrictions. Keep in mind that DS is still an exhaustion perk, precluding the use of Iron Will, Sprint Burst, Lithe, Overcome and other exhaustion-related perks. Additionally, as far as I understand, this version of DH will still lose its activation token if it gets used without tanking a hit with it. This makes it incredibly hard to use, very limited in its usage, and extremely punishing to misuse.
I don't think that's 'still good'.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392731#Comment_3392731
Saying to bring STBFL to ''benefit'' from DH doesn't actually do much unless it's the 8th stack that you've gained from that hit. Also not many killers need STBFL in the first place where DH is a solid choice for all survivors once they learn to press the button in time.
You're not supposed to benefit from DH as killer, it's a survivor perk! Do you expect every survivor perk to be balanced to No Mither/Autodidact levels?
Seriously, how do you expect to balance DH with Lithe/Sprintburst when DH gives a 35% shorter burst, requires a hookstate to be used, and can easily be outplayed or missed?
@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392731#Comment_3392731
-"Are you talking about the on-hit sprint? Because that's not unique to DH."
Name another exhaustion perk where you get sprint burst from the killer hitting you twice. Oh right - there isn't one. This is where the "third health state" problem comes from.
DH's effect being an exhaustion perk is a con to DH. Remember that you can also get endurance from BT, OTR, and MoM.
But again, as I mentioned, you either take DH for 2x on-hit sprint, or take SB/Lithe for a longer sprint + 1x on-hit sprint. How do you want to balance this out if you took away the on-hit sprint from DH?
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@ShroudedGhostFace said:
Watch, killers are still going to see 3 or 4 Dead Hards in every single match despite the nerfs because it’s a free 3rd health state. So much for a meta shakeup.
What do you mean 'free'? It costs a hookstate. That's not 'free'.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392702#Comment_3392702
-"DH doesn't give movement speed."
When you gain the endurance effect from using DH you get a speed boost.
No you don't.
Are you talking about the on-hit sprint? Because that's not unique to DH. People who use SB or Lithe will get that too when they become injured.
Either you use SB/Lithe and get one on-hit sprint, or you use DS and you get two on-hit sprints. You are trading SB/Lithe for an on-hit sprint.
Except DH is hard to land.
@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392702#Comment_3392702
DH makes killer literally stop and do the recovery animation while survivor can continue to run which is pretty much the same as giving the speed to survivor upon being hit without killer doing the weapon clean-up animation.
Then bring STBFL if it bothers you that much. You can't expect DH to give the exact same value result as Lithe and Sprint Burst when the latter two are infinitely easier to use and far more consistent. (And now DH also costs a hook state to use)
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@DrFrozen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392588#Comment_3392588
CoH had it's time to shine but it should not grant survivors huge advantage... ability to instaheal... survivors are supposed to fear the killer or sth ? Nah not until this perk exists
So what should it do? Waste 14 seconds and then give the survivors nothing? What is this genre of 'yeah, this perk is waaaay more conditional than X, but that doesn't mean it should get to do marginally more than X when its conditions are met' complaints?
@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392662#Comment_3392662
DH is stronger now than the old "DH for distance" because you get sprint burst distance on demand.
DH should give endurance but no movement speed buff. The problem is that it has always given better distance than both Lithe and Sprint Burst and as a result lets you waste more time.
Look at what happened to Eruption - the core effect that made it worth using got obliterated.
DH should get an equal treatment to where it goes down to 1-5% usage among top players.
DH doesn't give movement speed.
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@Sometimes_Sage said:
The thing is that the new Dead Hard won't discourage tunneling; a good anti-tunneling perk would be strong if the Killer tunnels but meaningless if they don't, the new Dead Hard will be meaningless if the Killer tunnels but strong if they don't.
'Strong' is a bit of an overstatement, but yes, it will be at its strongest, marginal as that is, if the killer doesn't tunnel.
Same issue with OTR, which is why the shift from DS to OTR is so baffling.
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@imakepeoplehateme said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392479#Comment_3392479
Pain Res did not get buffed.Its a rework at best.You need to keep in mind how inconsistent it will become.It only proks once on a different survivors,you need to hook them on one of the 4 hooks.It doesn't reward you for quick chases like before,and it lacks the ability to be delivered it where and when its needed like old pop.
CoH is less powerful yes,but its still like a top 10 perk.Why didn't they leave it be,and murder a survivor perk for once,thats the point of my post.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392491#Comment_3392491
Dh is weaker,no arguing here but its still annoying to face.They changed it so many times and yet it will still be used.Name a killer perk that received the same treatment.
My point still stands,they are afraid to out right remove a survivor perk from the game,while they don't hesitate to do it to killer.
Dh is weaker,no arguing here but its still annoying to face.They changed it so many times and yet it will still be used.Name a killer perk that received the same treatment.
That's a pretty unreasonable standard to begin with, but also...
My point still stands,they are afraid to out right remove a survivor perk from the game,while they don't hesitate to do it to killer.
That's probably because the vast majority of killer perks are at least somewhat usable, while the vast majority of survivor perks are downright awful. Survivors don't have that many options to go on, so removing one is way more impactful.
This is something that's been frustrating about watching the discussion on this PTB too: people acting like the nerfs to CoB/OC/PR were basekit killer nerfs when they're perk nerfs, unlike what the healing nerf was.
Yeah, you lose CoB/OC. Slap on Deadlock, or Gift of Pain, or Bamboozle or make a build with Distressing/Coulrophobia or Plaything/Pentimento, or grab any of the other perfectly serviceable perks that you never use because PR/CoB/OC is so incredibly over-efficient.
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@imakepeoplehateme said:
Throwing balance completely out of the window of weather the changes are healthy or not,my biggest issue with the announced changes is the devs inability of nuking survivors perks the same way they do to killers.
Ruin,pop,Eruption(it was decent before its first buff) were all nuked.
Dms and thana went from universally usable perks to only working on 2 killers(Artist,doctor)(PLague,Legion)
Tinkerer although still usable,lost a huge part of its appeal.I barely see it in my matches as a result
CoB and overcharge barely save any time now,dead aswell
I am perfectly fine with perks being buffed and nerfed as time goes by if the treatment was fair on both ends.Survivors however only lost like 3 perks in the span of years...
Ds an Iron will recieved harsh changes,however they also released Off the record as an alternative that has the effects of 3 perks TWICE.
Spine chill,it pains me that this perk got shafted,however it was innately toxic as it completely countered stealth killers
With the upcoming changes Dh and CoH however did not get nuked.They are still usable in a different sense.
CoH is now a reset point.The perk got a power budget #########,a rework if you will.You will still see it used in SWF to fully heal a team in 16 seconds.
DH still keeps its annoying aspect of not being able to lunge with confidence,it's been meta since release and probably the most complained survivor perk,can't we just remove it already?
DH still keeps its annoying aspect of not being able to lunge with confidence,it's been meta since release and probably the most complained survivor perk,can't we just remove it already?
You know, de facto, who can have it, and who can't. It's still going to be a really trash perk after this change, assuming that they stuck with the 'it deactivates whether it works or not'. Even without that second nerf, I'd still say the perk is not worth using.
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@knifola said:
Preface
Now, I try and play the game in a way that's fun for everybody. I tend to avoid tunneling or camping, because those just aren't very interesting ways to play the game for me. Chases are where the game is the most fun, because I'm actually able to interact with a survivor in a way which I can mind-game and out-skill them. Because of this, my builds on killers are usually designated to help find and chase survivors more effectively. Here is an example of my slot 1 build on Wesker and Billy.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/1TP64YW9AH26/screenshot-2023-04-02-132758.png
As you can see, my entire build is dedicated to finding survivors, getting critical early info to get a down before the first gen pops with lethal, and feeling extra speedy when using double engravings with shadowborn.
The Problem
This might all seem well and good, the general gameplan of these perks being "get into a chase early with lethal, get an early down, get that survivor on a hook to proc bbq, go towards info obtained via bbq." Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. I've seen more distortion/shadowstep users in my games now than at any other point in my playtime. These perks, at their core, might seem fair at first glance. Against killers who only run maybe one aura-perk, it's a one for one perk tradeoff. It's when the killer runs multiple where the issue is brought up. In my build's case, it's a two for one tradeoff. Given the rest of my build (shadowborn and infectious) however, it's taking away all of my ways to actively find survivors via hooking. Especially with bbq as it is, where you're going to be lucky if you find more than 1 or 2 survivors (2 is generally cooping a gen), it can be difficult to find stealthing survivors.
The Solution?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/JKWMKFPUDMFA/image.png
It's literally that easy. Why would a killer run builds which can be countered easily by 1 perk, when they can use builds which work with 100% effectiveness, and make games impossible to lose. Distortion and shadowstep are problematic because at their core, they work to disincentivize the killer to run aura-reading perks. Further still, running Distortion (especially against bbq) lets the killer feel more comfortable camping a hook, because the killer doesn't know where else to go. Why would a Billy sprint to the other side of a map to check on a gen he has 0 info on?
Preliminary responses to counter-arguments
"Would you prefer them to run something stronger instead of distortion/shadowstep?"
Yes.
"But what about (x perk) on killer???!!!! Are you saying that's alright and needs no changes?"
No, I'm not saying that. I only really play killer, so that's where most of my experience lies. I think that looking at the game overall in this "killer vs survivor mains" way is dumb. There are things I'd like to see nerfed for killer and survivor, there are other things I'd like to see buffed as well. I think that gen-regression perks are equally as boring as gen-progression perks.
"You fool, just get rid of distortion stacks!"
If you've played killer, you know how hard that can be sometimes. Especially on smaller maps, getting stacks on distortion can be VERY easy.
There are definitely more, but my main point in this discussion is that perks which completely eliminate an aspect of the other sides game plan aren't very fun, and further incentivize running more meta-focused gen regression builds instead.
There are definitely more, but my main point in this discussion is that perks which completely eliminate an aspect of the other sides game plan aren't very fun, and further incentivize running more meta-focused gen regression builds instead.
Dude... Stealth is part of the game. Nowhere to Hide removes that part pretty much in its entirety. Why are you directing your anger at Shadowstep/Distortion when they rectify the problem?
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3390129#Comment_3390129
I mean, I have no problem accepting this, but as you said: if the survivors can get a 3E, they can also nearly always try for a 4E, and I never ever experienced that they said to themselves "you know what? That killer earned that one kill. Lets just leave." I will stand on the hill that there is way, way, way more altruism from the killer to the survivors then the other way around, as I have given hatch to more survivors then I can count, where as it is somewhat rare that survivors would give me a couple of mercy hooks in games that they totally dominated, and actually mercy kills are the real of legends, with less then two hands full, even after 2k hours of gameplay.
I am not complaining, btw, just observing. Its not rare for the killer to have pitty on a group of survivors that they stomped, whereas its exeptionally rare for survivors to show any kind of mercy to a killer that they dominated.
Circling back to OP: something like this could work, IF you gave the survivors some kind of escalating debuff for each hook, while everyone is alive. Normally, getting a survivor out of the game is the most beneficial thing you can do as a killer, a 4th survivor alive and kicking can do gens just as good as everyone else and you can't win the attrition game as a killer if you can't seal the deal. If we got some debuff in the style of Dying Light or Leverage for every hook while everyone is alive, things could be different. IMHO DBDs biggest failure is that there is no catch up mechanic for either side and games can be decided pretty early on. Its exeptionally demoralizing if 3 gens pop at your first down, but with the current meta and increased efficiency since the HUD update its happening a lot more then before. Maybe its just as with 3 gens: 3 gens was always one of the best killer tactics, but only recently even cassual killers woke up to it; same thing with splitting up on gens: that was always the best survivor play, yet in the past survivors got away with slamming gens together and then moving on to the next, now its common to have 3 survivors sitting on their different gens, while you chase the fourth one.
Players skills have long since outrun the games basic mechanics and its comming appart at the seams pretty easily with just a little tuck. The reset of healing and gen regression as actually a good thing, even though it needs to be seen if this just opens more problems in different areas of the game. The thing is that the player base can't unlearn their skills, so certain things will never revert back to how they were during the golden times, because back then most people wouldn't and couldn't play as efficiently as today.
Just imagine sending some good (not exeptionally good, just regular good) survivor back to 2017, they would be totally untouchable and dominate everything and probably be accused of cheating. And 2 weeks later everyone would know about looping and be doing it. Not only the game changed, but also the audience.
I mean, I have no problem accepting this, but as you said: if the survivors can get a 3E, they can also nearly always try for a 4E, and I never ever experienced that they said to themselves "you know what? That killer earned that one kill. Lets just leave." I will stand on the hill that there is way, way, way more altruism from the killer to the survivors then the other way around, as I have given hatch to more survivors then I can count, where as it is somewhat rare that survivors would give me a couple of mercy hooks in games that they totally dominated, and actually mercy kills are the real of legends, with less then two hands full, even after 2k hours of gameplay.
That's mostly because killers can afford to do that, and survivors can't. Giving the killer a free hook risks giving the killer at least one free kill, flipping one survivor's game from a victory to a total defeat. This is not the case with a mercy hatch, where the killer has 3K and has the survivor at their mercy. I've also played matches where I 2-hook everyone in record time, basically before they've done two gens, and then let them all leave. It still feels like a win for me because I dominated that match.
But survivors just don't get that kind of luxury. You get put on that hook, all bets are off. There could be Blood Warden, they could camp, there could be Terminus in play, your team might make a slight mistake, and the slightest thing turns it into a 4K.
Survivors aren't the power role, so they have less leeway to give 'mercy'.
That all said though, WGLF used to be phenomenal for game health. That side objective gave an exterior win condition and should not only be reinstated, but further expanded upon.
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It just invites new balancing issues, and I'd rather it didn't.
What I've suggested before though, is having different survivors grant different BP bonuses to certain action categories, like Dwight getting +20% objective BP, and +10% altruism, while David gets +20% to Boldness and +10% to altruism, Claudette gets +30% to Altruism, etc.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3387435#Comment_3387435
Honestly, i think that the meta shake up is a good thing and if its really every 3 months, then it would be the best thing for dbd in a long time. As long as they are open to reasonable feedback, there shouldn´t be a problem.
The survivor meta has been stale for years and urgently needs to change. I would have approached it by buffing the lesser used perks, instead of what is comming now. But hey, we´ll see how it works out. If killers go full healing slowdown and people SC for 6 minutes in the corner of the map, then maybe survivors should change their playstyle and play more altruistically instead of just healing themselves.
If everything fails, the devs can always nerf/buff perks accordingly. This update won´t be the end.
The survivor meta has been stale for years and urgently needs to change
We got a completely different survivor meta in 6.1, less than a year ago.
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There is no 'DDoS' in DBD.
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It is as BHVR ordained it.
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And then a survivor heals like 6 seconds faster than normal after killing two teammates by resetting their heal progress and Autodidact gets nerfed to crap because 'wow, that's so broken!'.
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@Dbdfan398 said:
The only reason the heal speeds are so slow is because we have become used to insane, 6 second self heals. So now these heals feel insanely slow, but if they thought harder before adding insane medkits etc, wed just be used to slower ones
If they ever nerf gen rushing perks oneday itll feel the same.
The only reason the heal speeds are so slow is because we have become used to insane, 6 second self heals.
Or maybe they're slow because they got nerfed by a whopping 50%. Seriously, did you think this through?
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@Tsulan said:
While i´m not saying that DbD will die, there is a high chance the playerbase will drop in the next 2 months anyway. But that would be because of something that has nothing to do with DbD.
Next week is the release of Meet your Maker, in a month is the release of Age of Wonders 4 and in 2 months will be the release of Diablo 4. So there might be a visible decline in the DbD playerbase, but not because of the changes.
Sure, those games might not be everyones cup of tea, but there is a chance that at least one of those games will draw in heavy attention playerwise.
Is Age of Wonders that high profile? I always thought it was a pretty niche thing from my childhood!
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385723#Comment_3385723
So basically the loop is:
- unhook safely
- get one DH armed
- (other safe unhooks do not arm the DH further? tokens?)
- use the DH successfully or not
- lose the DH.
If it's not already using tokens, it probably should, with a timer.
Maybe missing its use should be linked to a timer to auto-rearm it after 45s/60s ...
What DH needs to lose is its ubiquity.
Maybe missing its use should be linked to a timer to auto-rearm it after 45s/60s ...
That's effectively what they had, but they nerfed it again.
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@HugTheHag said:
It's apparently not a nerf to the PTB, but was always the intention in the dev update, and it was just written in a way that was hard to understand.
Personally feel like it's much too hard of a nerf, I think the previous dev update version was fairer.
However, it won't change my DH pickrate as you can't downgrade from 0 haha.
It's apparently not a nerf to the PTB, but was always the intention in the dev update, and it was just written in a way that was hard to understand.
That's just plainly a flat-out lie. The original wording was very specific in that it required a negated hit to be deactivated, there was nothing ambiguous about it.
The fact that they went back to edit the original text to hide how blatantly clearly they stressed that it needed to protect you from damage to be deactivated just underlines it.
BHVR, don't just lie. Have the balls to admit that you just slapped another crippling nerf on DH before the first was even put into testing.
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CoH was already not that phenomenal. It was a good perk, but nothing gamebreaking, since the 14 second minimum time investment made it difficult to recoup on it with efficiency. The only thing that really bit was that the 50% heal speed boost applied to the self-heal as well, if that had been removed, CoH would've been fine as it would not have increased healing efficiency much at all if you also account for the restricted range.
This change is going to put it in the ground. Maybe swiffers can do something with it, but I think a more coordinated swiffer will just opt for double BK, since it offers the same value without the time investment and counterplay.
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@Pulsar said:
I mean, I've been around for almost 4 years now. I haven't gotten banned.
As long as you follow the rules, you'll be fine.
I got a temp-ban once for calling the devs 'walnuts', I believe. But that's the worst I've gotten.
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@Quizzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383469#Comment_3383469
For one, its honestly your responsibility to make sure the person you unhooked doesnt get tunneled for the next few seconds at least to get the safe unhook. Dont just leave them to die.
You can't. If the killer wants to tunnel, you have no recourse as anyone other than the tunnelled.
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@Bot_Salvo88 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383469#Comment_3383469
If you get hard tunneled, you can have off the record. It does the exact same thing as dead hard without you having to activate it and time it coreectly I think, right?
It's an overall healthier change for the game, as too many survivors rely on it. It's the exact same perk BUT you need to unhook someone.
No, both Off the Record and DH are now disabled if the unhooked is hit off hook, since it denies a safe unhook and inflicts deep wounds which blocks endurance.
I'm fine with DH getting nerfed, it's just that this nerf specifically exacerbates some overarching issues with the game.
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It's a really trash change that does everything the community doesn't want: It's blocked by camping, disabled by hard-tunnelling, and is going to work significantly worse in solo queue than in swiffers.
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You're supposed to, anything less than 2 gens before 1st hook is a landslide win for the killer.
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@TigerSnake said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383333#Comment_3383333
What a load of #########. You call giving a free anti-tunnel perk as basekit that’s better than the original “obsolete”??? DS isn’t even that bad, and how on earth did you get to the conclusion that UB is somehow weaker too? 10 seconds didn’t do anything cause it’s incredibly insignificant when hold M1 as much as possible is miles easier than sacrificing survivors, especially without “foul play”.
BT, the perk, became obsolete, yes. And yes, DS IS that bad. It's the most easily counterplayed perk by far, only working if the killer actively invests in making it trigger, and now when it does fire, it hardly does enough to justify both its cost, and how hard it is to get it to trigger. UB was mostly picked alongside DS because of the easiest way to sidestep DS, which is to leave the tunnel target slugged. Without DS forcing killers to not pick up, UB becomes less valuable too.
This is the point: Prior to 6.1, 75% of a meta load-out did nothing to help survivors against a killer who was not slugging, camping or tunnelling. But since one of those became baseline (Not necessarily improving its function against any killer that can count to ten), one got deleted, and the other lost the perk it needed to synergise with, that's three perk slots freed up for survivors.
OTR did not become a proper replacement for DS because of basekit BT giving tunnellers a solid option to just disable OTR, so what did those three slots get filled by?
Hyperfocus, Stakeout, Prove Thyself, CoH, or chase extending perks.
@Patokiller said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383333#Comment_3383333
Survivors will have soon Unbreakable freely in their kits man. It´s pretty easy to avoid tunnel: Body block and hook alternance, survivors do it all the time, at least good squads.
I once took three protection hits in one chase, was not enough to get the killer to not tunnel.
You can't stop a killer from tunnelling, period.
@Hannacia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383333#Comment_3383333
Old DS was broken. Don't sit there and tell me it wasnt. I got so many free escapes due to old DS and old DH it was ridiculous.
Those perks needed to be toned down and they arent the reason gens still go by fast. Reason is that there is perk called prove thyself which i see usually at least 2 people have. Also toolboxes and brand new parts havent been fixed. Still ridiculously OP.
I even see some hyperfocus stakeout builds. ( not as big issue as prove thyself is though ) .
Survivors got BT as basekit so they literally got meta perk always with them and could replace bt in their kits.
Killers have been asking shadowborn as basekit...SHADOWBORN but they havent gotten it. Survivors might get a second META perk as basekit..while killers havent gotten 1 tiny shadowborn.
Old DS? Which old DS? Because that perk has gone through a ton of revisions. If you're referring to the old old old DS, the one that was just a plain 'get out of killer grasp' free card? Absolutely broken.
If you're referring to old old DS, the one that gave you 60 seconds of 'get out of killer grasp' free card after getting unhooked, no questions asked? That was broken too.
If you're referring to old DS, the one that gave you 60 seconds of 'get out of killer grasp' free card, but disabled itself the moment you did anything to help your teammates? That was absolutely not broken, barring maybe the EGC use. If you got hit by that outside of EGC, that was your own damn fault as killer for tunnelling. And that EGC use got clipped from it the same patch it had its value cut in half.
Those perks needed to be toned down and they arent the reason gens still go by fast. Reason is that there is perk called prove thyself which i see usually at least 2 people have. Also toolboxes and brand new parts havent been fixed. Still ridiculously OP.
They're not going to get fixed. They're never going to get fixed. This is the balance point BHVR is aiming for. Killers tunnel, camp and slug to cut corners to their victory, and survivors are expected to do the same on the opposite side.
The stuff you're complaining about isn't 'ridiculously OP', because it's perfectly balanced with 'ridiculously OP' stuff on the other side. Maybe you don't like these tactics, and I'm right there with you, but it's what we're stuck with.
Killers have been asking shadowborn as basekit...SHADOWBORN but they havent gotten it. Survivors might get a second META perk as basekit..while killers havent gotten 1 tiny shadowborn.
No, you didn't get Shadowborn. You did get innate 12.5% repair speed slowdown, and a portion of STBFL and Brutal Strength basekit, and you're about to get double sloppy butcher basekit.
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@TigerSnake said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383195#Comment_3383195
”Heal nerfs” don’t slow down the game at all. 10 extra seconds to gens didn’t eliminate the need for gen regression, and 8-14 extra seconds for healing won’t do it either. You’re literally just making the killer role miserable and borderline unplayable. Course people won’t admit that cause of the 3 gen butthurt.
You wanna know why the +10 seconds of gen time didn't reduce the need for slowdowns?
Because the same patch that added that gentime also made BT obsolete, killed DS, and by extension, made unbreakable extremely unreliable. With killers getting the green light to slug, camp, and especially tunnel, survivors had to adjust to games where killers could cut corners to kill much faster.
Hence the increase in BNP, Prove Thyself, and other means of genrush.
It's perfectly balanced, you see? It's not what -anyone- wanted or asked for, but it is balanced.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382480#Comment_3382480
There are over 100 perks on EACH SIDE.
Think about that for a second. You get 4 perks OUT OF A HUNDRED you can run every game. If the death of ONE of those is a big deal, it's time to seriously address why it is a big deal and why it's death is probably good for the game.
There is a huge chunk of perks that do not see any use, and they are not improved with the removal of others.
Think of it this way: No matter how badly you nerf Dead Hard, Red Herring will -never- be a good or worthwhile perk.