Firellius
Firellius
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- Firellius
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@Spectralfx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3439835#Comment_3439835
Yes Firellius.
Camping and tunneling are perfectly acceptable strategies, as per the devs own words.
Now how you decide to deal with that fact is entirely up to you and no, you are not entitled anything else from that point on.
The devs have offered plenty of built-in advantages to address the concerns survivors had in the past and its plenty as it is.
Now it would be only fair for killers to see their concers addressed as well.
Respectfully, deal with it.
"Now it would be only fair for killers to see their concers addressed as well."
Why?
If survivors don't get to change the devs' minds, why do killers?
What's to say the killers' alleged miserable state isn't by dev design?
Why would killers get to address their concerns and campaign to have them resolved, but survivors have to shut up and take it?
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@Pluto_1 said:
"4: The survivors being in a rush fit the games theme. In a horror movie the normal characters are trying to get out as quickly as possible."
And there it is. Survivor entitlement wide open for all to see. Doesn't even try to hide it.
Killers are the ones setting the time limit and putting the pressure on, my dude. Survivors just can't afford to flop around and waste time anymore.
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The definition of genrush has expanded a little bit nowadays. It's not just bringing big toolboxes or Hyperfocus, or BNPs anymore. Now it includes things such as 'healing another survivor', 'doing a generator', 'not immediately rushing towards the hook the moment a survivor is put on it' and 'using a perk'.
So yeah, obviously guilty.
/s
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@Patokiller said:
What´s the point? You are a killer, you hit a survivor, you made your goal, what do you get? 2% penalty to gens speed.
You are a survivor, you get hit, you failed... Tha killer got you... You are punished? No... Take this 9% against my 2%...
If the killer hit all four survivors you have 20% (8 + 12 bonus), if all four survivors get wounded what they get? 9% FOR EACH ONE! Total: 36%, if survivors have a Prove Thyself bonus increase to 15%.
I´m not including all other gens speed perks or Brand New Parts and toolboxes.
It´s not fair.
If the killer hit all four survivors you have 20% (8 + 12 bonus), if all four survivors get wounded what they get? 9% FOR EACH ONE! Total: 36%, if survivors have a Prove Thyself bonus increase to 15%.
That doesn't work like that.
Thanatophobia applies to all survivors at the same time, resilience only on the survivor that has it equipped. If all four survivors bring Resilience, they all get 9%.
But either you count Thanatophobia AND Resilience for all of them, or you count neither for all of them.
IE: Thanatophobia will slow each survivor by 20%, which means it's a total slowdown of 4 x 20% = 80%.
OR: Resilience boosts repair speed by 9%, but Thanatophobia slows it by 20%, so it's a total of 9-20= -11% repair speed.
Additionally, Prove Thyself does not increase repair speeds, it just removes the co-op penalty.
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@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3440081#Comment_3440081
if the teammates are not being proactive and dont try bodyblocking then yeah that is on the teammates not the killer. if i see a teammate getting tunneled i am for sure going for a bodyblock hit or getting in position for when they go down to try for the pallet stun/flashbang/sabotage play or at the very least making more scratch marks available and try to divert the killer to chase me.
I once took four protection hits in one chase. A tunnelling killer will tunnel no matter what, and someone else playing guardian angel means gens aren't getting done.
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@Frogsplosion said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3440081#Comment_3440081
If we're going to talk about removing gameplay let's talk about how many stuns and blinds completely neuter the killer over and over throughout the entirety of a match. Realistically this is a game of cat and mouse where the gang of mice mercilessly beat on the cat till it gives up.
Oh, I'm fine with flashlight nerfs, but how many times are you getting stunned in a match before you figure out that you can dodge pallets?
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Survivor gameplay consists of doing gens, performing altruistic actions, and doing chases.
Camping removes all three from the person being camped, and two-thirds from the other survivors, while also completely stopping killer gameplay.
Tunnelling removes two-thirds from all survivors, as three are left only doing gens, and one is left only doing chases.
In short, both methods completely annihilate the core concepts of the game.
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@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3439328#Comment_3439328
isnt it more like camping in reality? especially with two people and one leads the killer on the chase the other survivor is technically proximity camping the gen
I'm sure the generator will be very upset that it's not allowed to leave its spot.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3439759#Comment_3439759
What ever you belive me when im saying im a survivor main or not, is really not my problem. I dont owe you anything.
An appeal to authority ?? im correcting you when you are trying to make up rules that dont exist. I guess you are a fan of the survivors rulebook for killers??
When i play killer (yes i sometimes do my dailies). I play as i like, im not following the some custom rules that some random person on the forum made upm just to make their own game easier. If gens are getting rushed, i have no choice than rush kills.
When im playing as survivor, i am also aware that if we rush gens, or keep saboing hooks ect. that the killer will prob also start playing sweaty, and you know what.... im not going to the forum to complain about it.
So in short, you are fully convinced that camping, tunnelling and slugging are fair tactics. So this whole business splitting hairs over me axing the 'devs said so' part from your quote was purely performative then, because you come out and state it anyway. And from the onset, I knew you would, because that is the only reason why you'd bring that up.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3439734#Comment_3439734
Hold your horses, you are trying to make up rules, because it does not fit your agenda. And im telling you that those rules you are trying to make up, are invalid. And im referring to the devs, who said that camping and tunneling were legit.
You change my quote, so it sound as if its something i came up with. There is a big difference.
It's not functionally distinct. Why bring it up if it's not to strengthen your own position? And how would it do that without at least partially matching it?
Or did you make an appeal to authority just because you felt like it?
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Honestly, Ruin did not deserve the regression rate nerf it got. The 'breaks if a survivor dies' thing was a fine change, but the regression rate got pushed down waaaaay too far.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3436835#Comment_3436835
Could you stop quote mining me??
( Quote mining is an informal fallacy and a fallacy of ambiguity, in that it removes context that is necessary to understand the mined quote.)
I said..
"Camping, tunnelling and slugging are completley legit strategies, devs said so many times."
What's the point of that distinction if you use it to argue against anti-camp, anti-tunnel measures? Do you want a game that's fun for everyone, or are you just going to defer to the devs?
Pick one!
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3439305#Comment_3439305
-"You're the only person who believes in 'gen tunnelling', and your definition of genrushing includes 'using a perk' and 'doing a gen'. Your perspective is a bit off."
That's just not true; what you have said just now is not at all what I suggested previously. Gen rushing is a posture stance that you can easily recognize when you see it. You kick a generator and before you even have a chance to leave someone else has touched the generator again. It's an attitude where survivors are on the generators literally non stop.
Tunneling is a problem when both sides do it. Survivors tunnel gens so killers tunnel out survivors. We go back to the old problem that survivors don't really have a main objective other than the generators. It's a shame that in ~7 years of development we couldn't find one.
Tapping a gen is now also genrushing, sweet lord.
It's like every third post from you has a solid 75% chance of adding something new to your list of things that you qualify as 'genrushing'.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3439246#Comment_3439246
Tunneling is the strategy right now.
What do you get if you don't tunnel? One hook on multiple people gives you nothing. Adding a base kit mechanic to change that would influence killers to do something else.
But with the same thought in mind Survivors literally have nothing to do but tunnel generators. It would almost make sense if we just went ahead and gave killers NOED base kit. That would force survivors to break all the totems so they couldn't just gen rush in 3-4 minutes and then be safe b/c they brought adrenaline.
What do you get if you don't tunnel? One hook on multiple people gives you nothing. Adding a base kit mechanic to change that would influence killers to do something else.
The problem is that that base kit mechanic would need to be MORE oppressive than tunnelling in order to wean killers off of it. You yourself already suggested a whopping, agonising THIRTY-SIX percent repair speed slow, and it still would not even be enough! Both mathematically (In which I made a mistake, so the actual numbers make the comparison even worse), and by your own admission!
You're correct that tunnelling is the strategy right now. But we're not fixing that with 'more carrots'. You would keep tunnelling. You'd keep tunnelling with an average kill rate of 70%. You'd keep tunnelling with an average kill rate of 80%.
Tunnelling needs the stick, not the carrot.
But with the same thought in mind Survivors literally have nothing to do but tunnel generators. It would almost make sense if we just went ahead and gave killers NOED base kit. That would force survivors to break all the totems so they couldn't just gen rush in 3-4 minutes and then be safe b/c they brought adrenaline.
You're the only person who believes in 'gen tunnelling', and your definition of genrushing includes 'using a perk' and 'doing a gen'. Your perspective is a bit off.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3438963#Comment_3438963
Do you even play killer? I would stop tunneling with such a massive slow down - at least for the first hook. If they weakened some of the tiles to make chases a little more difficult to loop without using resources then it would have a huge impact on the game.
You'd stop tunnelling until you lose a match again, and then you'd be right back here demanding more killer buffs and survivor nerfs and promising that you'll 'totally stop tunnelling, guys, trust!'.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3438221#Comment_3438221
-"So 36% in four hooks, or 33% and way higher pressure in three hooks. Swing and a miss."
The alternative is I hook one person three times in a row every game because 3x hooks is -25% so it has to be better than 8% per hook.
It's only -25% if the killer is AFK, otherwise you will never have four survivors on gens at the same time, the max will be 3. Which gets reduced to 2 if you tunnel one out and then target the next, so that's -33%.
So yeah, 36% in four hooks, or 33% in three, with an easier time pressuring once you hit those three. Even though you are suggesting a crippling 36% slow, it still doesn't compete with tunnelling. This is why the 'carrot' doesn't work. Tunnelling is way too powerful, so that 'carrot' would need to basically fundamentally break the game in order to overshadow it enough to wean people off of tunnelling.
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@DyingWish92 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435358#Comment_3435358
The 10 seconds to gens did absolutely nothing. It did something for the first few days then everyone started using Prove Thyself and strong toolbox addons more which negated the 10 second nerf to gens. The fact people keep bringing this up as massive killer buff is laughable. I never felt a difference in the gen speed at all.
then everyone started using Prove Thyself
At the expense of what?
If Prove Thyself came up, something else had to go. So survivors would lose out in another area, maybe becoming weaker in chase, having less intel, healing slower... Prove Thyself didn't take up a new, empty perk slot.
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@mustdogen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3438425#Comment_3438425
LUL did any of them still alive?
We're talking about the state of the game in 6.1.0, not the current state.
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@mustdogen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3438376#Comment_3438376
No, the slow meta was
Pop+pr
Pr+dms
Ruin+undying
Etcetc.
Before the 6.1.0 you really have lots of combo to choose.
But after 6.1.0 and every patch after that.
Killer literally have no perks could use now
No perks? Eruption, Call of Brine, Pain Resonance and Overcharge all took the game into a chokehold, what do you mean 'no perks'?
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@RoastedGarlic said:
otz broke down the math, perk is op especially when paired with built to last. you cant argue with math.
BTL and Scavenger do not scale each other up internally, so it's not 'especially' egregious with BTL.
That said...
@Nebula said:
This is literally blood rush and Hyperfocus all over again. This perk is the equivalent to built to last and next to no one will run this. It’s RNG dependent and a perk that 95% of the playerbase will not find enjoyable. I won’t name and shame but there are multiple streamers who are already crying for a nerf for this perk with extremely limited actual gameplay. This just leads to group think and everyone saying “yeah you know what scavenger is OP, pls nerf BHVR”
One of the reasons why there's often a firestorm over new survivor perks that ultimately end up with a sub-1% pickrate is that a lot of killers have trouble understanding the game outside of what is readily visible on HUD or in FoV. This leads to conditional perks very quickly being declared 'game breakingly OP' because they overlook the underlying conditions.
Like killers complaining about CoH healing too fast without incorporating the 14+ seconds of set-up time.
That said, the problem with Scavenger, and the reason I actually agree with the killer main take on this perk this time, is that Scavenger is NOT a conditional perk. All it requires is a fat toolbox, and you're practically guaranteed the full breadth of its extensive value. This is not a 'stars align' value like with DS, this is practically guaranteed, so it's fairer to take it at face value.
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@Tsulan said:
Ironic how everyone instantly names 6.1.0 as carrot, but completely ignores that this was the ONLY carrot killers ever received. Which also came with a stick (slowdown meta was nuked).
What?
6.1.0:
- Increased Eruption's detonation regression from 6 to 10%
- Increased Eruption's incapacitation duration from 16 to 25 seconds
- Removed Jolt's cooldown
- Added Overcharge's regression speed increase from 75 to 200%
- Gift of Pain's repair speed penalty was increased from 9 to 16%
It didn't nuke it, 6.1.0 -created- the slowdown meta.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435253#Comment_3435253
-"Carrots don't work without directly making camping and tunneling less efficient in some way, plain and simple."
Wake up - reality is calling. If you put in a base mechanic that is better than tunneling then I'll do that. It needs to be a stronger bonus than hooking one player three times.
Imagine for example you give survivors a 9% permanent penalty to all actions each time someone is hooked for the first time if no one is dead. Hook everyone once and there's a nice 36% penalty to all actions for the rest of the game.
Anything less than that and I'm gonna tunnel at 5 gens because it works.
Okay, but we're generally trying to keep the game balanced, not just hand out free wins to killers all over the place. With that in mind, carrots don't work.
But yeah, if you throw balance out the window, you could probably design something that makes not tunnelling more effective than tunnelling.
Imagine for example you give survivors a 9% permanent penalty to all actions each time someone is hooked for the first time if no one is dead. Hook everyone once and there's a nice 36% penalty to all actions for the rest of the game.
So 36% in four hooks, or 33% and way higher pressure in three hooks.
Swing and a miss.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435989#Comment_3435989
Im a survivor main buddy, but i want a balanced game thats fun for everyone.
While you say that you understand fine, what you write suggests that you dont, when gens are rushed the killers need to rush kills. The easiest way to do that is what?? Tunneling and camping, yep.
- and the survivors are alturistic this is why camping is effictive.
Gens can be done in 30 secs (45 is more realistic). 2-3 gens pop on first down in most matches.
The killers need 6 downs (this is when tunneling, they need even more if they are not) just to get a draw.
Now do the math (its not that hard).
Oh yeah and btw - Camping, tunnelling and slugging are completley legit strategies, devs said so many times.
But you are trying to make up rules that dosnt exist because you want easy games.
Im a survivor main buddy, but i want a balanced game thats fun for everyone.
Camping, tunnelling and slugging are completley legit strategies
Pick one.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435378#Comment_3435378
I've heard this about a million times on these forums.
You may be struggling as killer, I'm not. And many others are also not struggling.
1). you are pretty much countradicting your self here.
2). its not a big issue on the lower mmr, or on the fast moving killers, but once you get up or are playing on the slow moving killers you will see the issue.
I've heard this about a million times on these forums and I don't care.
Sounds to me that the only thing that matters to you, is you...
I am a survivor main now, and i could just say f... it we are in a good place now. But i really want the game to be balanced and fun for both sides.
If you understood what was said, you would also get the reason behind the camping, but in stead you just say "
I've heard this about a million times on these forums and I don't care."And that indicates that you really didnt understand it, because if you did you should care, - if you wish the camping and tunneling stopped that is.
A bandage can only soak so much, if you dont stop the bleeding....
1). you are pretty much countradicting your self here.
There's a distinction between hearing it a million times and hearing it from a million people.
2). its not a big issue on the lower mmr, or on the fast moving killers, but once you get up or are playing on the slow moving killers you will see the issue.
Higher MMR has higher kill rates.
And that indicates that you really didnt understand it, because if you did you should care, - if you wish the camping and tunneling stopped that is.
I understand it perfectly well. I understand it to be the excuses of a small but very vocal group of killer mains who just don't want to lose, ever. Folks that continue to insist that we should 'use the carrot, not the stick!', even when that has been tried and tested and found to not work at all, in the slightest.
We've got massive kill streaks all over the place, perfectly healthy kill rates, healthy tournaments, and still the same handful of people will insist, incessantly, that the game is literally, objectively and even mathematically unplayable.
I am over the excuses.
Camping, tunnelling and slugging need the nerfbat. It's the only way they can be phased out.
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@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435180#Comment_3435180
Camping is a strategy and is what makes it important to distinguish the types because punishing some types is stupid and punishes people for playing well.
That's where you and the devs disagree. That's what the system disagrees with you on. It's been exactly a problem because it is a strategy, which renders the game unenjoyable for everyone involved.
They want to get rid of camping, not give a light slap on the wrist with a 'you can camp if you still feel like it uwu'.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434889#Comment_3434889
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_nsrd1IZiQ&t=121s
Do you think its fun to be killer right now?
Most of the camping and tunneling are because thats the only way for a lot of killers (not all) to get a draw.
How much time do you spend on getting a hook vs. how fast is a gen done, the killers need 6 downs (if they are tunneling, if not they need more) before all gens are done..
I quit as a killer because it became unfun and stressing AF.
I've heard this about a million times on these forums and I don't care. You may be struggling as killer, I'm not. And many others are also not struggling.
I am sick and tired of this 'woe is me' pity party by camping/tunnelling killers who get upset that they F'd up their own MMR to be well above what they can handle, and then they want everyone else to suffer for it.
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@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435078#Comment_3435078
If 0 survivors are nearby, then the killer's smartest play is to not camp, so this mechanic does not affect them unless they decide to camp anyways for some other reason (stupidity, spite, 3-gen nearby, important gen or totem nearby). If it's not because of a 3-gen or important gen or totem, the killer should be punished for misplaying by enabling the mechanic.
If survivors are nearby, the killer's smartest play is to camp, but the mechanic affects them, which is completely and irrevocably unacceptable.
If the killer is not camping, the smartest play for a survivor is to rescue the hooked survivor. If the killer is camping, the smartest play for a survivor is to ignore them and work on gens. If the survivor decides to try and unhook even if the killer is camping, they should be punished for misplaying by it disabling the mechanic.
"If survivors are nearby, the killer's smartest play is to camp, but the mechanic affects them, which is completely and irrevocably unacceptable."
No, it isn't. You may not like it, but that's of no concern. You're still camping, and that is what the system is set up to punish.
Your concern is that a survivor will be able to get the unhook. That's your reason to label the option of chasing a survivor a 'lose'. That is what the system is adressing. You are not supposed to indefinitely stall an unhook.
The system works as intended. Take the L on the micro and take the W on the macro. Get over your pathological fear of survivors getting to play the game.
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@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435046#Comment_3435046
False dilemma. Those aren't the only two choices. It's also bad faith to act like it is.
In the new system, if the killer is camping, you have no need to rescue them. Go do gens. They will unhook themselves and you will get generator progress done. The killer has no one to defend the hook from, so the mechanic is acting as intended.
If someone comes to contest the hook, then it instead becomes the killer is now defending the objective. The mechanic is not intended to punish the killer in this situation, which is why BHVR already made it slow down if a survivor is there. The issue is it still progresses, meaning it will eventually lead to the hooked survivor unhooking themselves. Except, there's a problem, and that's that it is a misplay for the killer to leave the area unless they chase the survivor. Except, that leads to another problem. If there's a second survivor, by camping, you are pressuring 3 people (the hooked survivor and the other two). If you chase one of them, you get a chase, but you in return, give a completely free and safe unhook with no danger at all to the other survivor.
A survivor aware of exactly where you are and can see you coming standing 16m away as a headstart and immediately running to a strong tile or running away to waste way more time than a normal discover-and-chase situation is not "literally throwing themselves at you" unless you are quite literally stupid.
I would prefer you don't pretend abusing a situation to force the killer into a lose-lose by making them have to pick between the survivor unhooking themselves or letting a person unhook them for free completely safely is remotely similar to your bad faith false dilemma. If the survivor comes to challenge the hook, then it is the killer defending their objective and thus not something to punish, and thus they should not be forced to leave the area. If no one comes to challenge the hook, then it is not, and thus something to punish.
If someone comes to contest the hook
Then, by your own admission, they are wasting their time! This is the problem that you cannot wrap your head around. You call it a lose/lose for the killer when in fact it's a win, because the killer is better off than if the survivors hadn't bothered contesting the hook.
That's not 'abusing the system'. That's the survivors making a misplay and you failing to understand the macro perspective behind it. You are not losing out as killer under this situation, you are benefitting from it.
If no one shows up at the hook, you are left with no intel, no eye on any survivor, who are likely all doing gens. You can try and make your approach, but there's no guarantee that you won't be spotted beforehand and there's no guarantee you won't lose the survivor during the approach. You might even head to the wrong gen and waste a ton of time travelling up and down the map. And if you DO enter a chase, you do, in return 'give a completely free and safe unhook with no danger at all to the other survivor'.
In contrast, in the situation you describe, you are immediately upon a survivor, you know where the are, they can't slip from you without blocking out their scratch marks, you don't waste time travelling, and you have zero chance of heading the wrong way.
What do the survivors get out of it? 'A completely free and safe unhook with no danger at all to the other survivor'. The exact same thing they get if all of them had just stuck to their gens.
The 'misplay' in the situation you describe leaves you in a better state than the correct play in any other situation.
Your problem here is that you want to retain the ability to deny an unhook by camping. And that is exactly what the system is meant to refuse.
Your frustration with this scenario is an argument -in favour- of the system, because it suggests that it is working.
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@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435038#Comment_3435038
"It's purely beneficial to the killer to be forced to leave an area so that survivors can unhook the hooked survivor with completely zero danger or risk."
If I'm slow, you're literally frozen.
You are forced to leave that area -anyway-. Whether there is a survivor or not, you are forced to leave that area.
You can either do so with a survivor sitting on a gen, making actual progress, more than 16 meters away, with the ability to hide from you while you approach, or you can do so with a survivor sitting in plain sight right in front of you, not doing a gen.
Which would you prefer? Survivors literally throwing themselves at you, or survivors doing gens?
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@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435027#Comment_3435027
If the killer is camping without a survivor there, the one on hook self-unhooking is fine. But if survivors are there, it instead becomes the killer is actively defending the hook. Expecting the killer to not defend the hook from someone literally waiting for the killer to leave to get an unhook is stupid. And if there's a second survivor, by chasing the first who has a 16m headstart, you completely throw away all pressure on the second one, who can then just go and rescue the hooked survivor without any problem or difficulty or danger at all. That is a massive misplay for the killer, and stupid to expect the killer player to do.
That's literally my point. Go do a gen instead of coming to the hook, and this system will allow the person on hook to just unhook themselves. Then the killer isn't defending the hook from survivors, nor do they have to be forced into stupid decisions. But if you force the killer into a situation they have to defend the hook, then it's even stupider to punish them for doing exactly what you pushed on them.
A 16m headstart against a survivor who knows you might chase them and will most likely still be hovering near good tiles or just run away to delay as much time as possible is a trash chase to take. It's not comparable at all to showing up suddenly to a survivor working on a generator or doing something else when they likely aren't prepared or in the best position to lead you on a time-wasting chase.
It is objectively better for the survivors to NOT employ the strategy you are describing. The 'abuse' situation is purely beneficial to the killer.
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@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435009#Comment_3435009
If we’re going to force people to play stupid just because it’s not fun for the other side, survivors shouldn’t be able to do generators while injured, they shouldn’t be able to spread out on different generators, they shouldn’t be able to do generators or totems while killer is chasing someone else, and they shouldn’t be able to 99 the Exit Gates. See how completely stupid that sounds?
A 16m headstart against a killer that means he has to actively just let the second survivor unhook for free for is a stupid trash premise.
Talking about playing stupid: It's also really stupid to actively walk into the killer instead of just doing a gen.
You're comparing 'Abuse situation with system' to 'abuse situation without system' and then complaining about that change, but you -should- be comparing 'abuse situation with system' to 'non-abuse situation with system' instead.
You get upset over this situation you describe and having to give up the hook for that, but if the survivors don't play to exploit that tactic, you've got at least one extra survivor on a gen, making progress, and, quite possibly, a long trek and search to go before you can get into chase. And you're going to lose the hook anyway.
The survivors doing what you describe is literally slowing them down and speeding the killer up. They are making the game easier for you if they try to 'abuse' in the way you describe. You, as the killer, are better off if they try to pull of this tactic.
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@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435006#Comment_3435006
"Just let the second person unhook for free."
"A bunch of gentime, cut hide-and-seek and map traversal time = free"
But think for a moment, though, about how the situation you're clinging to compares to the survivors -not- employing that tactic.
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@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434599#Comment_3434599
"If a survivor is obviously waiting for the killer to leave so they can unhook, the killer should be forced to leave or have the hooked survivor unhook themselves. This is totally reasonable and not at all an insane abuse of the mechanic."
"I'm gonna abandon gen, walk up to the killer to make sure he knows where I am and start the chase without the killer having to waste time to get to me and find me because it'll allow someone else to safely unhook, which they'd be able to do anyway if the killer just went out to find me and chase me."
Again, buddy, you aren't thinking about what this scenario you're describing is in contrast to.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434484#Comment_3434484
You forget that those +10 secs and +2.5% omn kick, means nothing if you calculate in the gen rush perks added to the game with and after that change.
Okay, they pick a genrush perk to balance out the +10 secs and 2.5%, and now they're weaker in chase and have less intel because they had to replace something else.
+10 secs is basekit, perks are not.
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@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434130#Comment_3434130
If the killer is at 1m and the survivor at 15m, it should still stop. Because the killer has no reason to leave and just give them a free unhook. Punishing them for that is stupid.
"Anti-camp is fine, so long as it doesn't interfere with camping"
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@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434017#Comment_3434017
- Doesn’t matter. Chasing is a misplay. But not chasing now punishes you thanks to this system exploit possibility.
- You aren’t denied making a save if the killer is that far away. Hook trading is not denying a save. Bubba is a solo exception problem specifically because of his power.
- Because it punishes the situational strategy being used in the exact situations it’s meant to be used and do well in, not just the “reckless camp literally any timel idiocy?
- If you actually watch the stream, you’d notice devs say they aren’t targeting proxycamping, only facecamping.
Do a favor and watch the stream before you waste time on another reply.
- Listen, if you feel that you should just be able to sit under hook and camp a survivor to death, then I hate to break it to you, but no matter how the anti-camp measures are designed, you are not going to like it. That is very much a -you- problem. If you believe that 'chasing is a misplay' in any situation where you have a survivor on the hook, you are the problem, and these measures are addressing it. You are not going to like the outcome.
- 'Hook trading is not denying a save!' Where's your blabber about effective strategies now?
- So it's inefficient AND situation and yet you are still up in arms over it.
- Targeted denial of saves.
How about you address the actual scenario?
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@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434002#Comment_3434002
- You misspelled "2 survivors nearby forces camping as the only smart play". The fourth is on a generator. If you chase the other that has a large advantage due to starting 16m away which will make the chase take a while, you give an uncontested unhook to the other. If you stay, you now get punished by them self-unhooking for not playing stupid. Don’t be stupid.
- Rewatch the stream. Devs explicitly said facecamping. Non-facecamping allows for trades. Don’t be stupid.
- Splitting up on gens hard-counters camping in time efficiency. The killer cannot pressure non-nearby gens in any strong way while camping. Regression perks were also balanced out. Situational strategies are strong for the exact specific situation they are designed to excel in. Don’t be stupid.
- Rewatch the stream. The mechanic is only for facecamping. Don’t be stupid.
- So you admit you are wrong, because the stream mentioned the survivor can see and nothing was mentioned for the killer to tell. Glad to know you didn’t watch the stream you’re busy arguing about.
- Quick question, just please, think it over for a second: That survivor that's standing 16 meters from the hook (Not doing a gen, by the way), if he wasn't pulling off that tactic, how far away would he be from you as the killer? More, or fewer than sixteen meters away?
- Dev also said 'the problem is being denied the ability to make a save'.
- Okay, so now you're arguing that it is a tremendously inefficient method of play, so why do you care that it's getting nerfed, then?
- See 2.
- I will ask again: Was I wrong, or did you get your knickers in a twist and fail to read what I wrote? But judging from the fact that you're repeating 'don't be stupid' as some kind of mantra, I'm going to guess that you saw someone disagree with your take and just saw red from that point onward.
Just as a thought experiment: Consider the situation you are painting up with the two survivors on opposite sides of the hook, and compare it to the situation as it is at the moment. What are survivors going to do under the current system, and how does that compare to the 'abuse' situation? Because from what I'm seeing, that 'abuse' situation is literally flat-out better for the killer than the more likely situations that occur under the current system.
@sanees said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434002#Comment_3434002
you are literally wrong, to save a survivor or make camping ineffective you need either 2 perks or 3 survivors who will simply rescue the survivor from the hook in a crowd
'Just clog your build with perks that only work for camping and then execute a perfect strategy in perfect coordination with total strangers and no communication to counteract the killer putting in effectively no effort whatsoever.'
Okay.
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@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3433974#Comment_3433974
- Don’t be stupid. If two survivors are standing apart at 16m, then leaving is giving one a free unhook for no reason, while the large starting distance gives a big advantage and time-cost to chase the other. There is no good reason to chase either.
- Don’t be stupid. The devs said it was for facecamping, not camping. They have distinguished the two lots of times.
- Don’t be stupid. Camping is not always the best play. It was for a few patches because of overpowered regression perks that are no longer issues post-nerfs. Punishing the player for playing smart is still stupid.
- Don’t be stupid. Proxycamping and regular camping are not a problem, and also not what this mechanic is meant to target.
- So you admit you were wrong and that it’s left entirely on hoping BHVR will correct those issues. Thanks.
- What do you mean 'Free'!? They're investing two survivors' time on a one-man job, AND they're making your job easier by making you not have to go only 16 meters to get to a survivor instead of the breadth of the map, AND you don't have to find anyone. This is legitimately starting to sound more like 'anti-camp is fine, so long as it doesn't interfere with me camping'.
- 'The devs said it was for facecamping' - No, the dude that introduced the system stated that the problem is not being able to go for an unhook. That's ALL camping, not just facecamping.
- Take the right build, camping is still broken as F. It requires a lot of coordination from survivors to break even with it and the slightest slip-up on their part makes it a landslide victory for the killer. It continues to be a problem, and a lynchpin behind other balancing issues.
- See 2.
- Was I wrong? Or is this you getting your knickers in a twist and failing to read what I wrote?
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@Mushmallow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3433434#Comment_3433434
- The survivors don’t even need to loop. They stand at 16m. A huge distance that’s far enough the killer has to leave a far distance before they can begin chase and can easily cost a lot of time in the chase because of the starting distance.
- 16m is Kindred range. That is very big. That’s also not facecamping if someone is 16m away. Even 10m away isn’t facecamping, to be blunt. Any further than 10m range on this mechanic is stupid and doesn’t affect what it’s meant to target.
- Because a killer is literally stupid if they don’t camp in that situation. They are throwing away pressure for free after a good play or decision which led to this advantageous circumstance. Punishing the killer for playing correctly is stupid. This isn’t the same as reckless facecamping which is what devs dislike and are targeting. You know, facecamping without a care from 5 gens? Camping isn’t inherently a problem. It’s a strategy devs design this game around.
- You can watch the stream and see the news post.
- You can watch the stream and see the news post.
- What, as killer, are you doing where the survivor can just stand at 16 meter range, if not camping? Chase the guy! Survivor just walked up to you instead of making you cross the entire map and play hide and seek to find them.
- Yeah, it's not about facecamping, it's about camping. 10 meter range is less than 3 seconds out, the unhook animation alone is like a second, and that's assuming you can start it without the killer noticing.
- 'Punishing the killer for playing correctly', bro, camping was always a good choice to make, any move to punish camping would always be 'punishing the correct play', because the tactic is overly efficient and needs a nerf. Besides, you can still camp, you just can't camp it to death is all. And before you start: No. Remember that the guy explaining the anti-camp system opened up by specifically talking about being able to make unhooks. Just because you're a liiiiiittle bit further away doesn't make it suddenly 'not a problem'. Facecamping, proxy camping and 'regular' camping are all the exact same problem.
- & 5. This is pre-PTB. Way too early.
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@sanees said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3433508#Comment_3433508
survivors also received bonuses
+ Survivors have hyperfocus, so surv can solo repair generators in 45 seconds.
+ Survivors can already increase hook time by +120 seconds with Reassurance and Kinship.
so to say that killers got buffs and just continuing camping would be a lie
Wow, it's so OP how Hyperfocus gives a completely unconditional +100% repair speed for just a single perk slot and nothing else, that's incredible!
Wait, why's Flip-flop beating it for a pickrate according to Nightlight?
And wow, we can invest a ton of time to keep a survivor on hook and useless for longer, what a buff. That really compares to the... Was it six? compounding buffs that trigger frequently in every single match?
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@sanees said:
What if we don't punish killers for playing?
What if, instead of constant nerfs and reductions in tactics, we start rewarding killers?
for example, do not punish the camp (which will absolutely be used by the survivors to attack)
go from the opposite
for example, if the killer is not within a radius 16 meters of hook, then the survivor dies faster
and suddenly the killer gets more pressure from the hook and at the same time gets an incentive not to camp
Try to give a gingerbread instead of a whip
Last time they tried to give killers the carrot instead of the stick, the killers just started camping and tunnelling more, immediately forgot about the carrot, and just generally started whinging even more. I know it's a popular forum meme for some folks that 'tunnelling and camping will totally go away if you just buff killers out the wazoo' but it's not meant to be taken seriously.
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@Mushmallow said:
- It doesn't stop the progression when a survivor is near. It only slows it down, which means it's easy to abuse.
- 16m is giant and will trigger from the killer going through the map or patrolling gens.
- The anti-camping mechanic will also activate when multiple survivors are hooked together or near an important gen, 3-gen, or totem.
- The survivor on the hook sees the progress meaning they will always know exactly when the killer is in the range.
- The killer has no way of knowing if they're in the range or not for certain.
- How does that make it easy to abuse? Are you referring to someone just infinity looping the killer near the hook in order to 'abuse' the system? Because then they might as well infinity loop the killer away from the hook and let someone rescue. How 'abusable' this is depends entirely on the time it takes for the bar to fill if a survivor is nearby.
- 16m is not giant, and the fill rate is based on distance, so skirting the edge will likely not push the bar that much.
- Camping multiple things at the same time doesn't make it not camping, I'm not sure why this would make a difference.
- They will likely also be able to do so by using their eyes and ears. Most killers have a terror radius, and if a killer is invisi-camping, well, they're still camping. And did they even confirm that the survivor sees the progress?
- Did they confirm this?
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@hailxsatanxeveryxday said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432954#Comment_3432954
Explain how or concede the point.
I'm asking a question here. What's to keep me from facecamping a hook until the timer fills up, pretending to leave for five seconds, and then tunneling them right back onto the hook with STBFL, killing them as fast as or faster than if someone had come for the unhook?
If you don't have an answer, I can accept that, but if you have some insight into this I don't, please do elaborate.
I would assume the self-unhook is elective, so the hooked survivor can wait until the last second of their hook stage and then hop off, causing the mini-chase to add to his time.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3433009#Comment_3433009
If you have time to do something, you aren't being tunneled. Its that simple.
It's not, that's your misconception. You are literally conflating camping and tunnelling.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432471#Comment_3432471
A little bit of both. But again, i ask you, define tunneling.
If you define tunneling as:
- The killer immediately goes for you all the time and stays near you to go directly after you after the unhook.
Sure, but i'm assuming you will define tunneling as:
- I was unhooked and ran away to go heal and the killer ran toward my direction.
As tunneling, but the reality is, it is not, because you had time to heal, so you were not being tunneled.
Ah, okay, so you only define it as tunnelling if the killer is camping.
I see.
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@AssortedSorting said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432702#Comment_3432702
Move trash pallets to god pallet spots, at least in optimal play. Not sure how I feel about that.
At the expense of gen-time though, and at the expense of said pallets.
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Alternatively, what if the ability to build pallets comes at the cost of naturally spawned pallets?
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@lifeisstrange said:
Nope every killer can face camp specially with stfbl/broken add ons, Bubba the king of it, it is time to put him out of commission we survivors long suffer enough of this.
Problem is, this is not going to work against Bubba. He can just chew through the endurance and down you again straight after. If anything, this anti-camp mechanism might make facecamp Bubba more effective.
I don't think this mechanism is going to go over well. It still has some room for exploitation on both ends. IMO, what should be done against camping is that the hook timer gets slowed per survivor working on a gen, squared. IE: One person on gen -> 5% slower hook timer. Two people on gens -> 10% slower hook timer per survivor, totalling 20%. Three people on gens -> 15% slower hook timer per survivor, totalling 45%.
Makes gen-slamming actually counter camping, makes it so that survivors occupying the killer around the hook renders the mechanism near pointless, and gets massively broken down if the killer chases someone off a gen like they should.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3432055#Comment_3432055
-"If two gens pop while someone's on the hook, what is the killer doing?"
Maybe they are chasing the person that came for the rescue that they saw in the middle of the map. You need to remember that there is zero pressure on survivors that are not in a chase when the killer is busy.
Once upon a time survivors died much faster on the hook. I think it was 30 seconds faster per phase- if I am wrong someone will be sure to correct me. The theory when Horvath put that in the game was that : survivors would rush to the hook sooner to get the unhook. But that's not what happened. Survivors got +30 seconds to finish generators and then only left when they had exactly enough time to get the unhook.
Let's assume the worst and the killer is playing scummy. Two gens pop and in 15 seconds the survivor will hit the next hook state. What do you do as killer? You make them go for an unhook and force a grab. If you get the grab you drop that player immediately so you can grab the other player.
Most of the time when you play against vicious hook campers the solution to stop the camping is to unhook that player almost immediately. Almost always the killer needs to kick a generator, pallet, reset a trap or reload from a locker right after a hook event. If you're across the map chugging away on a generator then you missed the moment when the killer was occupied.
Survivors don't think like that because they don't play killer. They don't know that nearly 95% of the time I hook someone I always have some little errand to do. The other thing on survivors minds is that this is not "efficient" play; they should only unhook a player right before the next phase to optimize the team efficiency.
At that point it becomes killer efficiency vs survivor efficiency. If you're playing survivor efficiently against me then I will have to mirror that stance against you. I will camp and tunnel one player out of the game.
In as few words as possible :
It's a show of good faith to the killer that as a survivor you rescue another survivor quickly. If you're not rescuing quickly and you try to play efficiently then I will do the same and force the second stage. Then I will immediately tunnel the person off the hook because that is efficient play.
I want to leave the hook and be able to go chase other people. Often times people hide or run to areas that lead to a nearly impossible chase. If that's the way you want to play it then I will pressure you by forcing a hook state. You can preemptively counter me by rescuing your friend early.
If you don't do that then you are contributing to the "camp and tunnel" meta.
Facecamper literally telling people 'nah, you counter me by walking straight into my trap and going for the rescue'.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3431879#Comment_3431879
Its making it so you don't go down instantly, so the killer still has to down you and you get a proper chase.
So what's it work against? Tunnelling, or camping?