Firellius
Firellius
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@Zeidoktor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3343333#Comment_3343333
That's generally been my experience when people talk about Boons. They almost always actually mean Circle of Healing.
To be fair that actually does tend to be the issue with doing anything about Circle of Healing in particular. How to change it without damaging the other Boons in general, which is what most suggestions I've seen made would do.
I've seen some suggestions like remove the self-heal or, conversely, make it only a self-heal when in the Boon's area. Also saw a suggestion of it doesn't affect healing directly but shows the aura of injured Survivors in its effect Empathy-style.
That's generally been my experience when people talk about Boons. They almost always actually mean Circle of Healing.
Yep. Keeps coming back.
And while Circle of Healing is strong, I wouldn't say that current Circle of Healing is overbearingly so. It might need some slight adjustments, like halving the heal speed boost when healing yourself, and probably disallowing it stacking with medkits, but people keep yammering about this scorched earth approach to ALL boons.
And there's usually the argument of 'well, hexes...', but hexes are almost universally -way- stronger than boons. There's like six hexes that are all more popular than the second most popular boon.
If Circle of Healing is getting another nerf, let it be this: Circle of Healing increases the time it takes to boon a totem by 6 seconds. That'll knock its effectiveness a little bit, and add more value to snuffing it out without drilling it down to sit with the rest of the boon perks in absolute oblivion.
But it's always a scorched earth nerf suggestion that is massively disproportionate to how effective CoH actually is.
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@Xernoton said:
Don't give them ideas! All of these perks would be absolutely worthless. I'm talking "Beast of Prey"-worthless here. 😂
- Beast of Prey: Now reduces terror radius by 50%, rather than giving Undetectable
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Partially.
Higher prestiges increase the spawn chance for higher rank add-ons, offerings and items in the bloodweb for that character. They don't guarantee anything, but they alter the spawn logic.
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Survival BP offerings are noticeably worse than the other types, so something being done about them would be nice. Other than that, bloodpoint offerings are fine. Map modifiers are fine. Luck offerings are fine. Moris are fine. Event offerings are fun.
Map offerings should be changed to make them exclude a map, rather than force it. This still gives some control, but not full control.
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I don't think I've ever seen anyone call Scratched Mirror boring...
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I don't think it's fine. Even if Eruption is still usable after the nerfs, the problem is that the community points out a specific issue, and then BHVR goes scorched earth on everything in a five mile radius of said issue. Again.
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@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3342231#Comment_3342231
that's your opinion... for me DS is still useful and the nerf was justified... i can understand when you are aganist a good blight (in that case you'll probably won't reach the tile in time), but aside that case you have enough time to gain distance with the other killers
Okay, but there is a difference between a perk still functioning after the nerf, and the nerf being justified, isn't there?
Deliverance could get a nerf where you get deep wounds too when you get off the hook and the perk would still function, but that doesn't mean the nerf was deserved.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3342169#Comment_3342169
"Hmmm, this one thing only has one slight problematic aspect about it... let's change the whole thing."
Happened with Billy.
Happened with DS.
Now it's Eruption (and dont get me wrong, I hated Eruption, and even I think this this too much).
Yeah, the only issue I had with it was the 25 second break it forced survivors to take, since you could do basically nothing.
@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3342169#Comment_3342169
DS is still good if you know how to use it (i said this because now require a bit of knowledge to be useful while before was braindead to use): if you run in a dead zone while you have this perk active nothing will change, but if you run in a zone with tools for keeping the killer busy (pallets, walls, windows) and use DS here, it's a free escape from the killer's grasp and you'll waste the killer's time even more
Doesn't change that DS did not deserve any nerf beyond the EGC change. The 40% stun nerf was one of the dumbest things BHVR's ever done, since that perk was a contributor to game health.
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It's DS all over again.
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@JustWhimsical said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3340977#Comment_3340977
I just don't think shattered hope is ever going to become basekit, they are more likely to nerf the COH than add shattered hope. Though they definitely need to change dark theory because they clearly won't make the movement increase busted leaving it as the weakest boon perk at least boon unbreakable has some niche uses while boon dark theory is just bad all around.
One thing I suggested when the second CoH nerf rolled around is fiddling with boon parameters. The fact that CoH does what it does, and Dark Theory does what it does is a pretty big imbalance, but it's kinda ridiculous that Dark Theory has the same radius as CoH and takes just as long to set up.
Boons should have individual parameters (Radius, boon time, maybe a cooldown on snuff) and picking up multiple boons will pick the worst parameters from all of them.
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@JustWhimsical said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3340958#Comment_3340958
If im being honest shadowstep most definitely doesn't need a buff, it's already super oppressive on indoors maps against most killers and aura reading killers absolutely despise it. That's for a reason, because it's very strong, just the placement is what really decides whether this perk is used or not. When you get a perfect totem spot, it can really really mess up killers. So no shadowstep definitely doesn't need a buff.
Oh, I agree. Shadowstep is, in my opinion, in a pretty decent spot, mostly because it can become way more powerful on indoor maps, as you mentioned. It's more situational as a result.
But if killers get basekit shattered hope, Shadowstep is going right down to 0% usage rate, I can promise you that.
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@wydyadoit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3340889#Comment_3340889
nothing a survivor does in a trial is a net loss unless actively trying to die or afk. most of your rebuttals were semantics based.
cleansing or booning a totem is an effort to survive.
boons don't stack, but survivors can only boon a singular totem at a time. meaning their aoe is fixed. 4 survivors with circle of healing can't all boon the same totem, but 4 survivors with circle of healing can boon 4 totems and enhance the aoe's distance.
the choice to use or not use boon perks is more of a financial decision than it is a power budget issue. all of the boon perks require purchases. or would you honestly argue that sabotage and bond are high tier perks?
i earned adept mikayla literally minutes after purchasing her.
boon totems themselves are a fun mechanic, but there has to be more counterplay.
it's a logical fallacy to say that something should be because it has always been. i think it's called appeal to tradition.
nothing a survivor does in a trial is a net loss unless actively trying to die or afk.
No, that is definitely not true. Everything a survivor does is either optimal, or subtracting from it. There are LOADS of things survivors can do that they don't need to do that detract from their chance to survive.
14 seconds spent booning a totem aren't guaranteed to increase your chances of survival. 14 seconds on a gen, are.
cleansing or booning a totem is an effort to survive.
Lemme spend 1.5 minutes running around the map trying to cleanse 5 dulls, see what that does to my winrate.
boons don't stack, but survivors can only boon a singular totem at a time. meaning their aoe is fixed. 4 survivors with circle of healing can't all boon the same totem, but 4 survivors with circle of healing can boon 4 totems and enhance the aoe's distance.
And the benefit from that falls off -really- hard. Sure, you can have four boons up all at the same time, but only one will be used to heal. Which means that what could've been accomplished with 14 seconds worth of work and one perk slot now takes 4 perk slots and 56 seconds.
What a deal!
the choice to use or not use boon perks is more of a financial decision than it is a power budget issue. all of the boon perks require purchases. or would you honestly argue that sabotage and bond are high tier perks?
Why on earth are you bringing finances in this? And what do sabotage and bond have to do with boons?
(Also, no joke, Bond is actually a pretty strong perk for solo players)
i earned adept mikayla literally minutes after purchasing her.
And that is obviously and exclusively due to her boons, and the performances of the killer and three other survivors had -nothing- to do with that.
boon totems themselves are a fun mechanic, but there has to be more counterplay.
That'll require gargantuan buffs to Shadow Step, Exponential and Dark Theory, because Shadow Step is underperforming and the other two are at the bottom of the trash bin.
it's a logical fallacy to say that something should be because it has always been. i think it's called appeal to tradition.
Okay, but then you have to break down the entire system and not just hand-pick the one thing that frustrates you.
And you'd still need proportionality, because as mentioned, most boons are actually really really really, REALLY bad. So why install a gargantuan mega-nerf that'll knock the only good boon from 'solid pick' to 'No Mither-tier', while the rest is already on the bottom?
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@wydyadoit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3340591#Comment_3340591
no. i'm clearly accounting for effects. boon totems are stronger. just the simple fact that a killer has to run a specific perk to disable a boon permanently makes boon totems stronger since it's a blind guess.
devour hope does nothing except waste a perk slot if it gets cleansed in the first 10 seconds of a round. and likewise does nothing after getting cleansed at any point in the round. it takes 30 seconds to land a single melee strike minimum in any situation other than having an afk. it takes 2 strikes to down. and you still have to hook a player, walk a distance and wait for another player to unhook the survivor for a SINGLE token. survivor hook state 1 is 60 seconds. that's 3 minutes on average to get any benefit from devour. it's roughly 10 seconds to set a boon totem. and if all 4 players are running circle of healing as they typically do then that's 10 seconds for full map coverage at any point in the game.
killers can't destroy dull totems. and without a perk killers can't destroy boon totems. the agency is given to survivors when it comes to totems. so you're completely wrong about that part. hex totems initiate the match, but boons override hexes. if a killer brings 5 hex perks - then that killer cannot bring shattered hope to destroy boons. and is giving up any other perk options for totem control. in this situation there's zero guarantee that a survivor even brings a boon totem perk to begin with. which means a killer has to blind guess a strategy completely on the fact that it's such a threatening perk. that's a clear indication of something not being balanced.
on top of that if one were to bring the entity blocker perk for hexes im pretty sure then that the killer has to sacrifice haunted grounds as a double hex. meaning the killer only gets 2 hex perks guaranteed. i haven't tested this yet, but if this is the case then that's the best case scenario and it essentially makes 2 totems useless.
with 5 dull totems spawning every match - covering the entire arena in boons that grant flat stat buffs is entirely possible. 7% haste is .28 i'm pretty sure. that's enough to outrun a bloodlust nurse.
finding the totem is easy, but with 4 survivors running boons it's an exercise in futility without the perk to destroy boons.
even with my best educated guessing about some specific interactions it should be obviois that boon totems are stronger. how you could even attempt to argue otherwise is silly. it's not even an opinion at that point. it's just plain falsification. but you're welcome to your false opinion. 🤷🏻♂️
no. i'm clearly accounting for effects. boon totems are stronger. just the simple fact that a killer has to run a specific perk to disable a boon permanently makes boon totems stronger since it's a blind guess.
No, it doesn't make them stronger, and here's why:
devour hope does nothing except waste a perk slot if it gets cleansed in the first 10 seconds of a round.
Under worst case scenario, Devour Hope is going to occupy one survivor for 14 seconds and then becomes a blank perk slot. Which means it gave some slowdown as a benefit to the killer.
Under worst case scenario, any boon in the game will occupy a survivor for 14 seconds and then provides no benefit. Which means it gave some slowdown as a benefit to the killer.
The absolute worst performance you can get out of a boon is NOT zero. It's negative. The fact that these perks don't go out permanently does not make them stronger. It -can- allow them to recuperate some value later, but it can also allow them to double up on the time they've already wasted for the survivors.
it takes 30 seconds to land a single melee strike minimum in any situation other than having an afk. it takes 2 strikes to down. and you still have to hook a player, walk a distance and wait for another player to unhook the survivor for a SINGLE token. survivor hook state 1 is 60 seconds.
30 seconds minimum, except against AFKs. Or against obliviousness. Or if you have no TR. Or if you use powers. And then you're assuming survivors wait exactly 59 seconds before the unhook. Also not taking into account variable chase times because not every chase from first hit to second is going to take another 90 seconds.
it's roughly 10 seconds to set a boon totem.
That's VERY roughly, because you're off by 40%, buddy. Have you not used a boon perk before?
and if all 4 players are running circle of healing as they typically do then that's 10 seconds for full map coverage at any point in the game.
A: If all 4 are running CoH then joke's on them because they don't stack, so three folks brought useless perks and are wasting time.
B: How are four people all going to be at a totem at the same time without any of them getting caught and interrupted by the killer? Also, at -any- point? What killer struggles so badly with finding survivors that, after getting a couple of hooks and a few gens are gone, they still can't get into a chase?
so you're completely wrong about that part. hex totems initiate the match, but boons override hexes.
That's a misrepresentation too. Yes, a survivor can boon a hex totem, but to do so costs them almost half a minute, all of which is lost if they are interrupted at any point during the process, at which point they lose both the time spent on the totem and the opportunity to clear the hex. It's very high risk to try and boon a hex.
if a killer brings 5 hex perks - then that killer cannot bring shattered hope to destroy boons.
There's a hex in the game that can hex four separate totems, so you'd really only need two slots to cover all totems in hexes.
and is giving up any other perk options for totem control.
One of the hexes IS totem control.
in this situation there's zero guarantee that a survivor even brings a boon totem perk to begin with. which means a killer has to blind guess a strategy completely on the fact that it's such a threatening perk. that's a clear indication of something not being balanced.
This is the standard for DBD balancing. Before 6.1., 3/4 of the survivor meta was comprised of perks that do nothing unless the killer plays a specific way. This game has always worked like this.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for giving Shattered hope a little bit of extra oomph in its kit for when it's being used against the boonless, but having a perk that's useless unless the opposing side plays a certain way is nothing new.
on top of that if one were to bring the entity blocker perk for hexes
Is there one? I think it's only Pentimento that does that.
7% haste is .28 i'm pretty sure - which you get from the egc perk hope.
Hope is not a boon.
that's enough to outrun a bloodlust nurse.
NOT THE BLOODLUST NURSE! ANYTHING BUT THAT!
2% on top of that is enough to outrun hag.
IIRC, Hastes don't stack.
Also, again, Hope is not a boon.
Also also, 7%+2% = 9%. Hag is 110%.
finding the totem is easy, but with 4 survivors running boons it's an exercise in futility without the perk to destroy boons.
No it isn't. People need to remember that the worst a boon can perform is NOT 0. It is a negative value. Survivors are not doing gens if they're busy booning. If they prop up a CoH and you snuff it before they can heal at it, that perk has slowed the survivors down.
even with my best educated guessing about some specific interactions it should be obviois that boon totems are stronger.
Except it's not educated guessing, it's just wild assumptions. You didn't even know how long it takes to bless a totem. That is the opposite of an educated guess, since the actual bless time is on the wiki and not that hard to find, so you did not educate yourself at all!
but you're welcome to your false opinion.
Strangely, this 'False opinion' is shared by the majority of the community it seems, since Pentimento, Undying, Ruin, Devour Hope, Plaything and NOED are all more popular than the second most popular boon.
If only circle of healing is so widely used, is it really a boon thing, or is it perhaps a circle of healing thing?
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Circle of Healing is not nearly as strong as people seem to think it is.
DS should be basekit.
Both sides need nerfs to their sweatiest aspects in order to increase average game length. BNPs are the same problem as camping/tunnelling and both need out.
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'Nice tunnel'
BNP is the exact same problem. They got really salty over you denying them their bully.
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@Nihlus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3340034#Comment_3340034
Would be crazy if more than 1 of them was any good...
Theoretically...
I'm kind of thinking of Shadow Step, Circle of Healing, Bite the Bullet.
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@Unimatrix00 said:
In my opinion, they should nerf boons so that the totem is destroyed when the killer snuffs it. Make it just as useful or useless as killer hexes.
That would completely invalidate all boons, and half are already considered garbage tier, one is considered underwhelming, with only one being above bad.
@wydyadoit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3340214#Comment_3340214
yeah, but you gotta admit that boons are more powerful than hex totems. for starters - killers can't really waste time on cleansing like survivors can. and hex totems can be completely destroyed without the need for a perk. like - if i spawn as a survivor next to a hex totem then that killer perk is wiped from the game completely with zero counterplay. but a survivor can constantly boon until dead. and there are 4 survivors meaning a possibility that 4/5 totems are going to be booned - until a survivor dies. meaning even if i chase and kill 1 survivor it will still take the whole match to rid the arena of boons. but if 4 survivors spawn near 4 different hexes then all my hexes except maybe the closest one will be gone in 30 seconds.
You're not accounting for their effects. Ruin puts out extra pressure on survivors by undoing their progress. Devour Hope allows you to instadown and skip hookstates.
There's a 30% repair speed slowdown, there's persistent obliviousness, there's persistent exposed, there's pallet and window-blocking...
Survivors have four boons, one of which is extremely unlikely to ever grant value because it's hard-countered by killer pressing spacebar. One is a 2% haste in a limited area, which is negligible. One is scratch mark removal, which can be valuable, but also immediately loses most of its value if the survivor is injured. And one is Botany + Self-care.
None of these boons even come close to something like Devour Hope, Pentimento, Plaything or NOED.
And then there's the fact that hexes are set-up automatically, straight from the start, while boons require a pretty hefty time investment to set up, which the boons then have to earn back in order to get value out. And if they get snuffed before they earn themselves back, the killer gains some time.
Hexes are also global, while Boons are range restricted. This localisation can also adversely impact boons. Dark Theory set up in a dead zone where all the pallets are gone is going to be of no use whatsoever. No Hex has this kind of problem.
Also, the two share resources, but killer takes priority. If the killer brings a bunch of hex perks, that's going to hinder boons, not the other way around.
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If the killer says tunnel, your score says 'wheeeeeee!' as it goes into free fall.
Not as badly as with camping though.
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"But [title of game]!" might just be the only take that can overtake "but realism!" for sheer pointlessness.
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I mean... Plenty of killer skills are transferrable between killers. You're not a complete newbie, just because you've barely ever played Huntress. And it's not like she's one of the harder killers, either. She's got a high skill ceiling, sure, but her skill floor is pretty reasonable. More so, IMO, than for example, either PH, or Trickster, or Deathslinger.
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@wydyadoit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3340163#Comment_3340163
for me as the killer - it's scaring survivors. like when you can tell you ACTUALLY just made them jump.
I love Dredge for that! That teleport can keep people guessing on your whereabouts, and especially in Nightfall you can get some great scares in!
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I don't know if it's going to be some kind of 'meta shakeup', I think Eruption's just gonna get a change to make it not pause survivors' games for 25 seconds. I don't know if they're going to hit CoB, they might do something about its synergy with perks that damage multiple gens at once. They maybe might knock Pain Res down a little bit? I can't see them doing anything to Overcharge and certainly not to Deadlock, as, IMO, that is Pinhead's weakest perk.
Killer needs strong regression much more than survivor needs strong 2nd chances
Hard disagree. The term 'second chance' has been tossed around a lot but really only applies to DH and maaaaaybe Unbreakable. OTR, DS, BT and the like are all counterperks meant to ensure that a survivor's gameplay doesn't end at first hook, which is how the game was originally designed.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339899#Comment_3339899
I mean calling having to find totems as a downside just sounds silly to me. Anyone even at an average mmr finds totems passively all over. I find this only relevant for a new player that’s still learning the game.
You're looking at time saved in healing but realizing the time saved as it’s a self heal, rather than requiring another teammate to get off a gen to heal you, which is massive.
If you’re not seeing lots of heals from CoH it sounds like bad killers and we’re not wanting to balance around the lowest denominator, that’s how we end up with balance issues.
Sayin CoH is the only healing perk we see now because it’s fun sounds silly to me as well, it’s not 95% of the time the only healing perk we see because it’s fun. People run what’s strong, that’s why they’re running it. Let’s be honest with ourselves.
Lastly you didn’t comment on it only requiring 1 perk slot for the entire team to have infinite medkits essentially. Only requiring 1/16 perks instead of each of them individually is massive. That is a ton of extra value in terms of freeing up perk slots.
I mean calling having to find totems as a downside just sounds silly to me. Anyone even at an average mmr finds totems passively all over. I find this only relevant for a new player that’s still learning the game.
Maybe you're getting lucky with totem spawns, but I'm not. Most of the totems I find are quite out of the way, which is a double whammy since it increases set-up time and decreases CoH's value.
You're looking at time saved in healing but realizing the time saved as it’s a self heal, rather than requiring another teammate to get off a gen to heal you, which is massive.
Yes, it's more efficient when dealing with self-heals, but it's still total time subtracted from doing gens. Yes, self-healing does allow one survivor to work on gens for that time, but it also means that self-healing survivor will be spending more time healing. It's not like self-healing also takes 10 seconds.
If you’re not seeing lots of heals from CoH it sounds like bad killers and we’re not wanting to balance around the lowest denominator, that’s how we end up with balance issues.
How do bad killers -reduce- the amount of CoH heals? Surely bad killers would just repeatedly lose chases and fail to pressure people, thereby giving more time for booning and healing?
Sayin CoH is the only healing perk we see now because it’s fun sounds silly to me as well, it’s not 95% of the time the only healing perk we see because it’s fun. People run what’s strong, that’s why they’re running it. Let’s be honest with ourselves.
I mean... No. Prior to 6.1, DS was one of the most run perks in the game and it was mostly picked because it pushed back against an unfun killer strategy. Most of the time, DS would not fire or contribute in any way, but people still picked it because it made for better gameplay. 'Fun' is definitely a pick booster.
Lastly you didn’t comment on it only requiring 1 perk slot for the entire team to have infinite medkits essentially. Only requiring 1/16 perks instead of each of them individually is massive. That is a ton of extra value in terms of freeing up perk slots.
As I mentioned, the perk does not have value for the team as a whole if your team can't make it work. If your team is only able to break even on the boon time cost with heals taken from it, then the perk has an overall value of 0. It doesn't matter that others don't need to bring it, if it is not benefitting the team.
An organised team can probably make killers' lives worse by running We'll Make It.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339883#Comment_3339883
1 perk for the whole team rather than healing perks on everyone, you are not wasting time looking for totems as you passively run into them all over the map on the way to gens, and 3 heals out of the totem to equate value I would even argue is a stretch but that’s also across your entire team, not just yourself. If you looked at the amount of heals coming out of CoH on average it is way, way over 3 heals. Even look at what healing perks are in the meta, it’s literally nothing but CoH and that’s for a good reason, it’s because it makes all other healing perks that even used to make it into the meta look like trash in comparison. If I wanted heals there’s no reason I would ever run a different healing perk.
you are not wasting time looking for totems as you passively run into them all over the map on the way to gens
I'm not tripping over them as I move from gen to gen. You might be getting lucky with spawns, but I've had plenty of games where I can't find a totem, or they're very out of the way, or I only find them when the killer is nearby or chasing me. Plenty of hooks and eyes to the blessing alone.
and 3 heals out of the totem to equate value I would even argue is a stretch but that’s also across your entire team, not just yourself.
It's time saved versus time lost. You have to make up for the time you spent finding a totem and blessing it. CoH shaves about 5 seconds off of a heal, so you need 3 heals to offset the 14 second boon time.
Actually, no, you're right, it's less than that, since it's five seconds for both survivors. Still, that requires at least two heals before CoH begins to be effective, and that's not counting the time lost moving to the boon, which comes out of the benefit. If the boon is not nearby, the time saved quickly evaporates.
If you can't make it to the boon in under 5 seconds, then healing on the spot is faster.
If you looked at the amount of heals coming out of CoH on average it is way, way over 3 heals.
I doubt that. Certainly not seeing that in my games. But that's also not necessarily a problem with CoH, it could be a killer misplay.
Even look at what healing perks are in the meta, it’s literally nothing but CoH and that’s for a good reason
It's probably because CoH is actually kind of fun to use. It's not like healing perks themselves are really meta to begin with, as even before CoH, none of them were actually popular with the exception of Self-Care. Medkits have always been a far more popular solution than picking up healing perks.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339816#Comment_3339816
Explain the quite a bit of work required you’re referring to? I completely disagree. I’d argue extremely little work, zero risk, very high reward and low cost.
You have to find a totem, bless it, and then once people are injured, they need to make it to the totem in under the amount of time that CoH saves, I think at least 3 times in order to break even with the earlier timesink.
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@AssortedSorting said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339695#Comment_3339695
For anti-tunnel:
too much anti-tunnel starts to remove agency from the Killer and can be used by crafty Survivors to troll.
Honestly I just think there should be a way to absorb Sacrifice states from one survivor to another.
Say interacting with The Basement Shrine of Sacrifice will allow you to remove a sacrifice state from the Survivor with the most sacrifice states, but increases your count by one.
If the survivor is on hook when this happens, it acts like reassurance.
For anti-camp:
Why not just remove Healthy Grabs and make starting the Unhook animation uninterruptible?
This would make it a lot easier to trade hooks even when the Killer is facecamping, also allowing players to cycle their Hook states themselves instead of artificially elongating the Hook state of a single Survivor.
But you’d still want to add a carrot because the Killer gameplay is honestly quite monotonous given it doesn’t really have milestones or events that impact how they interact with the Trial. It’s just a constant loop of chase, down, hook.
too much anti-tunnel starts to remove agency from the Killer and can be used by crafty Survivors to troll.
I mean, we're talking about getting these playstyles out of the game, that kind of requires a reduction in killer agency.
As for how survivors use it to troll, we've had DS for a very long time, and for a very long time, it wasn't efficient as a troll tactic. I've pruned it back a little further from what we have now by removing collision so you can't bodyblock with it, so I don't really know what else you can pull off with this anti-tunnel idea that could make it a problem.
Why not just remove Healthy Grabs and make starting the Unhook animation uninterruptible?
Any form of instadown would get the unhooker downed anyway, and it would free up the killer to tunnel the camped person back onto the hook. Healthy-grabs aren't the problem. Survivors can cycle that out, but there's nothing they can do to prevent the killer just using their unhook to speed up the sacrifice process.
This slowdown specifically teaches the killer that the tactic is unrewarding, and it risks costing them the kill with a good EGC save.
But you’d still want to add a carrot because the Killer gameplay is honestly quite monotonous given it doesn’t really have milestones or events that impact how they interact with the Trial. It’s just a constant loop of chase, down, hook.
Killer gameplay is definitely comparatively more stale than survivor gameplay, but that's not something that should be fixed with net-buffs to killers. I'm all for diversifying gameplay in a way that is mutually fair, but killer gameplay being stale is a separate issue from camping and tunnelling.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339836#Comment_3339836
It's what the wiki writeup says, and given that the information in the wiki is official, if it's not, then the perk isn't working as it's supposed to.
That would be a pretty nasty mess-up on the wording. Need to check it sometime in a custom match.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339832#Comment_3339832
What...? Reassurance isn't mutually exclusive; multiple people can use it on one Survivor.
That's not what the description says.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339820#Comment_3339820
Well, if it's checking something the game already tracks for some reason, it's not any more difficult to check than a condition already used by another perk.
So, when the Survivor's hooked, it could enable the reassurance usage.
The condition it's checking on (Survivor being hooked again) doesn't introduce anything new that needs to be specially tracked. Which makes it no more work to implement than any other change.
But it's not just hook instance that's getting tracked. It's also forcing mutual exclusivity between perks of multiple survivors.
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@Dbdfan398 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339819#Comment_3339819
You must be a god at this game, so wise, meta avoiding and superior
Nah, I'm not that good. But I can do maths.
Healing takes 16 seconds by default. CoH reduces this to 10.66 (recurring) seconds. If a heal is taking 3 seconds, that means they're shaving off 70% of what's left AFTER CoH's heal time reduction, a much bigger reduction than what CoH is contributing.
Maybe they've got We'll Make It? That perk is twice as powerful as CoH.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339767#Comment_3339767
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339791#Comment_3339791
I think that you're being ridiculous and seeing the Loch Ness Monster instead of a bunch of sticks.
Not going to get into the coding here, because neither of us know exactly how this is coded, but intuitively speaking, it's not a new conditional - it's something that already exists in the game.
You don't know it's extra work, unless you are now about to claim you work at BHVR.
it's not a new conditional
What other game function uses this?
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@Dbdfan398 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339816#Comment_3339816
True, 3 second heals against coh first aiders as wraith is fun you're right
If they're 3 second healing, CoH is not your main problem.
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I don't particularly care, it takes quite a bit of work to get value back from that perk, and my playstyle doesn't really create much opportunity for that.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339791#Comment_3339791
Have you ever spoken to a developer in general, not just BHVR's ones?
Overcomplicating the solution by going with the first thing that comes to mind is a really recurring problem. xD
Okay, so they put thought into it. And at no point did any of them say 'hey, this completely defeats the point of the perk'?
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339767#Comment_3339767
I don't think you're removing the possibility that requires the fewest additional assumptions.
I think people aren't thinking this through.
If they really -only- wanted to address the 'perma-hook' issue, why add the 'once per hook instance, per survivor' stipulation? That's a new conditional that didn't exist yet in the game, so it's not some numerical adjustment, which would've worked, nor is it a pre-existing condition that could be copy-pasted from another perk.
Why put in -extra- work to make a -less- tailored solution?
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339743#Comment_3339743
Are you familiar with Ockham's Razor?
You're picking up the wrong razor, I'm using that one.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339654#Comment_3339654
(Does a quick search). Nope, not finding anyone credible. For the...fifteenth time? - Do you have any actual examples or are you making stuff up again?
Also...wait, are we really back in 'BHVR are secretly conspiring to fudge over survivor players in favor of killer players despite that making zero rational or financial sense' land?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/ICU3EBNZI7A8/image.png
If you aren't going to believe the developers when they literally come along and say 'this is why we did a thing' - then what's the point of even giving feedback? Clearly they're all just out to get you.
Again - I was there. People said 'oh, this is going to be used to grief people'. BHVR said 'yes, we're going to change it'.
And then they changed it.
Now, you're welcome to your tinfoil hat here, but you need to realize that it makes you (and your alts) look a wee bit silly.
So if BHVR said 'We want to buff No Mither' and the first and only thing they do is remove the sound reduction on it, would you still believe that they actually intended to buff it?
Words speak louder than actions, I suppose?
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@sanees said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339650#Comment_3339650
you forgot that in 6.1 the survivors got an improved version of bt( s tier perk ) and after hyperfocus which allows you to make a solo generator in 60 seconds, at this time the killers break the pallet 0.1 faster
so killers camp you not because all killers are evil, they just have to because unlike survivors they don't have 50 second chances
start rewarding hits and hooks, and make sure the game can't last less than 5 minutes and then the camp and tunnel will disappear
6.1.0 cut on-hit speed boost by 10%, increased gen times by 10 seconds, and decreased action cooldowns for killer on both pallet breaking and successful hits by 10%.
Seriously, I have not seen a single killer player actually take ALL these compounding buffs into account, they always forget half of them.
But this also plays into a fundamental disagreement I have over how to handle camping and tunnelling: Incentivising 12-hooking won't do the trick, for multiple reasons. For one, as seen above, players don't have a proper grasp on the game's balance or their own position in it. Feels like roughly 30% of the playerbase is in the 'top 5% MMR' if we're going by how many of those posts crop up.
The moment they are losing, it is the game's fault, it's unfair and unreasonable, and they resort to camping/tunnelling. You can try and shift the comparative quality of 12-hooking, but you have to take into account that the bar for what the players consider 'fair' can easily drop through the floor, putting 12-hooking squarely back in the 'I'd rather tunnel' category.
The other thing is that camping/tunnelling are also used as intentionally malicious acts. There are killers out there that are not playing specifically to win, but to make the game miserable. Any buffs to non-camping/tunnelling tactics won't fix this, as long as these tactics still feel powerful and effective.
So I strongly disagree with using the carrot. These tactics need the stick. And I think it's achievable. DS was super healthy for the game back when it was a 5 second stun, with the one problem being its activation under non-tunnelling conditions, but those were pruned off all the way through to 6.1. And Reassurance certainly has the potential to work, just not with its usage restricted specifically against campers to be only once per trial.
For anti-tunnelling, I'd want there to be a Desperation mechanism. Activates upon unhook, lasts 80 seconds, or until a conspic action, and the survivor has no collision with the killer while under the effect of Desperation. Additionally, if the survivor is picked up by the killer while under the effect of Desperation, they get to make a skillcheck to stun them for 3 seconds, which ends Desperation.
DS can be changed to 'desperate strike now stuns for 5 seconds'.
OTR can then be changed to complete info black-out while under the effect of Desperation.
And for anti-camp, make the hook timer slow down while the killer is near the hook, based on the number of survivors working on gens. One surv on gen = 5% slowdown, 2 survs = 20% slowdown, 3 survs = 45% slowdown. That way it only hinders the killer if they're actually camping and letting other survivors do gens.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339489#Comment_3339489
I don't mind the first idea, but I was there for the reass 'nerf', and it wasn't 'killer mains' demanding the nerf, it was survivors worried about being griefed.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/6O2I5E1ODT4D/screenshot-2023-02-08-003027.jpg
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339580#Comment_3339580
If I had one wish for 2023, it would be that anyone who says 'x mains did y' without substantiating or bothering to specify loses their DbD account.
There are tens of thousands of people on these forums. You can find someone who fits nearly every crackpot opinion you can name. They aren't representatives of anything.
The issue with hook suicides isn't that folks do it when they're being camped.
The issue is that they'll do it on first down, at 3 gens, because they challenged the killer to a chase at shack and lost.
I don't mind the first idea, but I was there for the reass 'nerf', and it wasn't 'killer mains' demanding the nerf, it was survivors worried about being griefed.
No, it wasn't. I know that's what BHVR claims it was, but the nerf they chose says different. They could've opted for any number of measures to make the perk not keep survivors on the hook indefinitely, which is a scenario that would require all three other survivors AND the killer to cooperate for that, so that would still be incredibly unlikely to occur, but they went for the absolute most crippling nerf, inventing new conditionals to make sure this perk would be as weak as possible against camping. If it was once per hookstate, it would've worked. But they made it once per hook -instance-, per survivor. It cannot produce more than 30 seconds now under any circumstance. Even if multiple people bring the perk, it's still locked at 30 seconds and no more than that.
So where before, counterperks like DS would be largely useless unless the killer specifically played that one particular strategy, now we have a counterperk that may not even work, even IF the killer is employing the strategy it is supposed to counter.
You could maybe argue incompetence, but let's be honest: It was harder to make Reassurance as ineffective against camping as it is now, than it would've been to just give it three tokens. This would be the weirdest incompetence I've ever seen.
So I'm just going to say it: BHVR lied. They nerfed Reassurance because they wanted to protect camping.
And yes, there were people on the forums adamantly arguing that Reassurance was punishing camping too much.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3337993#Comment_3337993
...How is it a sandbag perk?
It's not No Mither. It's just a fun gimmick. It's not worse than an empty slot.
Because in order to use the perk, you have to sandbag. You're right that it's not the worst perk, that award definitely goes to No Mither with Autodidact in second place, but it's a perk that does nothing, unless you sandbag.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339445#Comment_3339445
DS basekit would be a disaster. DS is already really damn strong when it comes to giving a massive and completely free bodyblock, which - especially if it's done in a coordinated manner when you're carrying a survivor can turn games around.
You'd have to give killers a pretty enormous buff to compensate, otherwise we'd probably be in a worse state than pre 6.1.0 kill rates were.
Uh...Reass works twice per survivor, right? Not once a trial.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339444#Comment_3339444
Huh?
A. What? Okay, I'm not sure if you understood what I'm saying. Right now, the best option if you're being facecamped is to sit there getting hit on the hook for ages so your team can do the gens and get out. You get 0 BP for any of that and you'll depip.
Getting facecamped isn't 'messing up', nobody can loop every killer for 5 gens every game.
The issue is that, in solo queue, you have zero reason to sit there and take it. Much faster to just cable pull or suicide. And that's a problem.
B. Uh, yeah? The...mechanics of the game? There is even a 'Distraction' system where, if you're being chased while other survivors are doing stuff, you get partial credit for that stuff. The problem is that this partial credit is A. pitiful and B. doesn't apply to sitting on the hook getting slapped by a Bubba.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339438#Comment_3339438
Here's an interesting thought for you then.
What is 'winning' as a killer?
Is it a 4k?
A 3k?
A 2k?
There is no formal win state whatsoever.
On survivor? Is it escaping personally? Getting a majority out?
For me, on both roles, by win-state is pipping. That's honestly as far as I can take it.
DS basekit would be a disaster. DS is already really damn strong when it comes to giving a massive and completely free bodyblock, which - especially if it's done in a coordinated manner when you're carrying a survivor can turn games around.
At that point, it's the coordination that's the problem, not DS. DS isn't a free bodyblock because if the killer doesn't pick you up, it does nothing. You'll still be slugged out.
But don't worry, I've still got you covered: Anti-tunnel mechanisms should be dependent on an effect called 'Desperation', which persists for 80 seconds after unhook, or until conspic action, and Desperation also removed survivor-killer collision for the duration.
There, no more bodyblocks.
Uh...Reass works twice per survivor, right? Not once a trial.
It's once per hook instance, so if the killer camps the hook and prevents an unhook, it can only be used once. The nerfs it got were tailored to make it as weak as it could possibly be against camping, especially for solos.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339421#Comment_3339421
I'm not sure how much further we can go, really.
I mean, yeah. Fix the killers that can bypass BT or those that are nearly impossible to unhook against. But beyond that...mm, it would be a complete teardown of the entire game's mechanics and I'm not sure that's viable.
Oh, don't worry, there's already been two great deterrents to these strategies, it's just that both got axed.
DS basekit, Reassurance buffed to three times per trial per perk, instead of once per trial total.
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Bubba.
For obvious reasons.
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Generally speaking, survivor perks are really bad, with most being way, way too conditional to ever really see the light of day. And when they do, the next day there'll be a forum post about how they should be nerfed.
That said, I think Potential Energy can really be fixed by the aforementioned fixes, though I'd do a % of tokens lost, rather than a flat value so subsequent hits don't bite as much, gives it a little more of a minimum performance value.
Quick Gambit is a perk that's just... not good design, as already mentioned. But buffing it very quickly runs the risk of making it too strong. It needs a redesign, really.
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I don't mind Lullaby that much, and it could be a decent idea for a sort of mini-rework where, when it breaks, you can't get stacks anymore, but the stacks you have stay (perhaps with the cap lowered by 1), so I don't think it's breaking enough to killswitch it.
But Sloppy should be gone by now. That thing is absolutely busted and getting exploited out the wazoo.
EDIT: Come to think of it, is the knight's grab-bug fixed yet?
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Had that happen to me, too. Went up to kick a gen right after I hooked someone, and it just locked in my face. It's good for a laugh!
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@wydyadoit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/363763/lets-play-guess-this-perk
freddy's bloodwall thing
@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3338834#Comment_3338834
Yeah I was about to guess Blood Warden too lol
@TWS001 said:
Barely play killer and only been playing 15 months and don't have them unlocked so not 100% sure exactly on their inner workings but could it be a killer end game perk. Maybe Blood Warden?
Bloodwarden is 30 seconds minimum though, so I don't think that's it, either. And I'm not sure what the 'niche situation where you can do other things' is.
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@TWS001 said:
Head On?
You can't really wait out a Head On, so I don't think that's the one.
Dying Light fits criteria 2 and 3, but it can't be waited out either. I do think it's a killer perk, rather than a survivor perk, since most survivor perks don't really have a 'wait it out' option. I also thought it might be Thrilling Tremors, which technically qualifies, but it only lasts 16 seconds, not 20+.
My interpretations of the descriptions give me the following assumptions:
- The fact that it's 20 seconds -or more- makes me think it's got a variable timer.
- The fact that -both- sides need to play around it, including the side that brings it, means it cannot be something completely passive that would activate under the most basic gameplay, it requires some investment to activate.
- The fact that both sides need to play around it, including the side it's used against, means it has counterplay.
- It can be waited out, meaning it's not permanent. It's therefor not a hex, for example.
- It extends the game, leading me to believe it's a gen-stopper perk. Theoretically, it could also be a chase-breaker or anti-hook perk, but time won from those is way harder to track.
Soul Guard comes to mind too, being able to extend the game by preventing a hook-state from a down, the endurance can be waited out, and the killer needs to avoid slugging for too long, while the survivors need to not break a hex. Only trouble there is that I can't really see what the 'Niche scenario where you can do something else' is.
Provided we're not overthinking this, this is a fun game!
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3338755#Comment_3338755
You do realize that you are arguing about 4%. I mean your technically right but if you add the 20 seconds to the total objective time then 3 gens isnt 60% it's 56% which is a pretty small amount to be so bullish on.
It's 20 seconds minimum. Not every survivor will be next to an exit gate. They also have to leave before they're safe, because even past the exit gate itself, you can still get downed and pulled back, done that plenty myself. There's loads of games that get 3 or 4 extra hooks after the gates are powered.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
Seems like every post I see like this is from someone who has a very high hour count. This is an mmr issue, experienced killers (especially with your hours) will have sky high mmr.
Survs tend to do better at high mmr. You have a team of 4 players who will often each know the maps, have comms, be consumate genrushers and chase runners. And will overall make it a nightmare for even the best of killers.
Low/mid mmr though is an absolute ######### fest for survivors. Killers steamroll into 4ks very easily.
What we need is a casual/ranked split for playlists. I like playing killer and I'm pretty good at it, but I'd like to just meme around with weak killers sometimes.
What we need is a casual/ranked split for playlists. I like playing killer and I'm pretty good at it, but I'd like to just meme around with weak killers sometimes.
This will achieve nothing. You'll have maximum sweaty blights and nurses file into the unranked mode just because they know they'll have opponents that want to take it easier, and bully squads hell-bent on making demogorgons cry. It's just a target painted on the casual playerbase.