Firellius
Firellius
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@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3338131#Comment_3338131
Yeah...3/5 done is, in fact, 60% generator completion.
Idk what level you're playing at, but 5 minute gens are definitely a reality. The 20 second gate pull is negligible and frankly, for some killers, indefensible unless you possess nwo and/or remember me + the rng puts the gates close together. There are times that items enable the completion of 4 gens (80%) before the killer gets a single hook. It's absolutely astonishing to me that this is the case and people are actually wondering why the behaviors of camping, tunneling and slugging are so common.
But it's not 60% of the -objective-, which is what you said in the post I quoted. The survivors' objective is to escape, not finish the gens. If all gens get done and all survivors die before they can power the gates and leave, that's still a win for the killer.
And nothing of what you said has anything to do with what I said. Survivors slow down as the match progresses. That first chase will likely have three survivors working on gens, the second chase will likely have only one. That is major slowdown compared to the start. Loads of games get hung up on 2 or fewer gens left.
It's absolutely astonishing to me that this is the case and people are actually wondering why the behaviors of camping, tunneling and slugging are so common.
Sure, blame it on gen times, even though the initial increase from 80 to 90 seconds did nothing to decrease those.
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@LordSturm said:
If it was actually balanced, chances are it wouldn't be the single most picked perk in the game bar none, in the highest percentage of builds for either side.
There are many more factors that go into a pickrate, so pickrate itself is not a foolproof gauge for balance.
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@Moxie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3338184#Comment_3338184
Comparing No Mither to DH. Just lol.
You know exactly what he meant or you have never played Killer ever since DH change.
Oh no, I know exactly what he meant, but you evidently don't know what I meant.
Loads of games are balancing on a string, doesn't mean the ability to swing it one way or another is any argument for anything to be classified as OP or not. Even the trashiest perks can sometimes turn a game around.
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@Gylfie said:
It's still unavoidable in many scenarios, completely negates some killer powers, forces people to play around it even when the perk isn't in the current match and even one successful Dead Hard can outright win the game, so yeah, people are still complaining.
"It can win a game"
Buddy, even No Mither can win a game, doesn't mean it's too powerful.
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@Anti051 said:
Higher skill matches tend to see 3 out of 5 gens done by the time the killer gets 1 hook out of 12. That's 60% of the objective done by the time the killer's got about 8.3% of theirs, at this point the killer is thinking something along the lines of "alright better make a difference pretty quick or I'm screwed with nothing but 2 or 3 hooks out of friggin 12."
As this scenario begins happening more frequently, the killer gets conditioned to expect it and act accordingly or be stomped and made fun of in endgame chat for being "bad."
In short - You can't have the ability to go from 0 to 60 in 1 chase and expect the killer to act cool, especially if it's an M1 killer
Higher skill matches tend to see 3 out of 5 gens done by the time the killer gets 1 hook out of 12. That's 60% of the objective done by the time the killer's got about 8.3% of theirs, at this point the killer is thinking something along the lines of "alright better make a difference pretty quick or I'm screwed with nothing but 2 or 3 hooks out of friggin 12."
It's not 60%, there's the exit gates too, and survivors slow down massively as the game progresses. This obsession with first chase is giving a really skewed perception of the game's balance and tipping point.
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Event is in play too, don't forget that. It'll draw some players back and there's a good chance most of them are survivors. I'm still seeing 100% survivor bonuses during the day though.
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I think it might be, saw a similar complaint yesterday I think.
I also don't know why killer adepts aren't on 3Ks instead of 4Ks.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3337597#Comment_3337597
No, I have no idea what you're talking about.
If you want to make a thread about buffing crap survivor perks, maybe go and do that. Like...if you're going to sulk, I guess you can keep bumping this one, but I have no idea why.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3337614#Comment_3337614
- Hopefully you aren't trying some sort of sneaky semantics but: Thana is now worse than pre 6.1.0, Overcharge is potentially even worse too (12 seconds...that's just silly). Ruin, Pop, yes. Eruption? Going to be nerfed out of existence in less than 2 months. Then we'll have an even less varied regression meta than pre 6.1.0. Tan frigging frastic.
- I think you might have completely misunderstood what I said. One of the stated goals of 6.1.0 was to slow down gens, nerf the strongest regression options and allow killers more variety. Except now, regression is worse and gens can potentially be faster than before, thanks to the new perks. Hyperfocus is too powerful when combined with Stakeout and Fogwise, especially in an SWF. I don't think many folks are going to disagree with that.
BHVR seem 100% set on adding in crazy strong gen perks - so killers need to run deeper regression to stand a chance.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3337668#Comment_3337668
It absolutely is - but I think you're misunderstanding the perk.
It's not a 'meta' perk. It can't be, unless you want to rework it to do something completely different.
What it's there to do is allow you, if you escape, to potentially gain a nice item, at the expense of a perk slot. It does that fine.
In an SWF, you could even give your allies items.
What it's there to do is allow you, if you escape, to potentially gain a nice item, at the expense of a perk slot. It does that fine.
But it does nothing to help facilitate that escape. Its only function even requires you to soft-throw the game because chests are, 9 times out of 10, not worth opening. They take too long to get to, take too long to open, and if it's a map or key, it's all been a complete waste. If it's a toolbox, it can recoup a fragment of its loss because you can shave 5 seconds off a gen. If it's a medkit, it might break even. If it's a flashlight, you're going to have to pull off a save, which is pretty tricky.
Either way, if you are actively using this perk, your escape rate is likely to go down, rather than up.
In an SWF, you could even give your allies items.
Yeah, I've run a build like that. Plunderer, Ace in the Hole, Appraisal and another item related perk.
It's funny.
It also has a 0% winrate. Plunderer is a sandbag perk.
I'm not saying it needs some kind of drastic buff or anything, I think it's fine where it is as just a 'for fun' perk. But it's not a 'good' perk. If you bring it, you're not playing to win.
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@calem said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3334365#Comment_3334365
And are these 'killers' in the room with us now? Absolutely no one wanted this, we want more perk variety to be viable and for weaker killers to have buffs to be viable. That is all.
I think most of them have left, but there's already two in this thread. Around 6.1., any thread made about tunnelling would be snowed in with people going 'it's a valid tactic', adamantly arguing against any nerfs to it. You might not like to hear it, but tunnelling and camping were fiercely defended, so that's where BHVR took things.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336679#Comment_3336679
...
No.
Just...no.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/GGKN41401F8P/image.png
- You don't get to hijack a thread about one thing and then say 'well, I want to talk about something else now so sod you'. Make your own thread if you want.
- Do you...not know what 'varied' means? It doesn't mean 'vast'. It means that you have far, far more viable builds than killers do in the current meta.
- Do you think it's fair to focus on buffing a handful of crap survivor perks when killers have far more crap perks?
- Plunderer is a perfectly fine perk. As is Pharmacy. They aren't top tier, but they don't have to be.
- Yes, doing the gens is what survivors are supposed to do? That's like saying 'well, killers need to be chasing and killing survivors to win'. It's not wrong, but also...duh?
- I spend a lot of my survivor matches interacting with the killer. I still win a goodly amount, and that's in solo queue. I like being chased.
- That makes absolutely no sense. No, seriously, what on earth are you on about?
- What hypocrisy?
Not sure if I'm being baited here or what.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336966#Comment_3336966
...Okay?
It's not me agreeing or disagreeing with his video, it's just using it as a springboard for a discussion.
Plunderer is a perfectly fine perk
It is absolutely not. Chests are predominantly a waste of time and Plunderer doesn't fix that. It's a funny perk to run, but it's absolutely atrocious, basically a trap, like Autodidact and No Mither.
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@BlueRose said:
Otz talked about it today some and I agree with him. The problem with putting the stun back to 5s is that it won't really hurt the strongest killers but will be very punishing to the weaker ones. 5s stun does nothing to killers like nurse, blight or Spirit (with speed addon's) but it devastates killers like trapper, Myers, and Freddy. Now I know what you will say "well just don't tunnel and you won't get hit by DS" Well you right but survivors will use the power of DS force the killer to tunnel them by body blocking and ect. Even now they use things like OtR and the basekit BT to make the killer hit them and force them to chase them. If you add 5s DS and a basekit DS to this you just asking for survivors to use these antitunnel tools offensively. Now what you could do is make it where DS makes killers like nurse and blight lose tokens so they can't use thier power right after getting stunned.
Yeah, I did say before 6.1. that BT was the wrong thing to implement basekit, and the move from DS to OTR is literally worse for both killers AND survivors.
DS needs to be basekit, OTR needs to be changed to total information black-out until conspic action after unhook.
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@Dark_Alex said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3337365#Comment_3337365
It was a great way to make the killer helpless with the gate open. He couldn't lift you up, and you could still crawl away. Lose-Lose situation.
5 seconds seems too long to me, as a killer. I managed to endure a mini existential crisis while recovering from the stun. However, 3 seconds is also not the right time, since the survivor does not always get a chance to start a new chase. My solution is 4 + deletion in endgame as it is right now.
It was a great way to make the killer helpless with the gate open. He couldn't lift you up, and you could still crawl away. Lose-Lose situation.
Yeah, that got removed. Justifiably, but then it also got slapped with a 40% nerf despite it being the healthiest perk the game's ever had.
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@Raz_cr0w said:
The main problem with ds (or with any stronger survivor perk for that matter) is that survivors found ways to abuse it's power and force the killer to either eat the ds and loose time or let them do stuff in the killers face. I do agree the 5 to 3 second nerf is a bit overshot but we need to be careful to not make a perk that survivors can abuse to force the killer into a loose loose situation
Thing about DS, though, is that the only way to use it 'offensively' at the end was to get slugged. It's not full on protection to do whatever you want, because you'll still get incapacitated until you're picked back up. DS was not worth trying to use offensively against any killer aware of its existence because it'd cost you more than you'd gain.
DS was the perfect anti-tunnel, or it would have been if it had only gotten the EGC nerf.
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@scenicpickle said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336733#Comment_3336733
that's a good idea or a perk that allows basic attacks to ignore endurance
or power addons that ignore endurance
Not under the current situation, as those would also invalidate the anti-tunnel effects.
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Oh, they're add-ons for the Map item!
Rarities don't always make sense. Tombstone piece is better than Tombstone for example.
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Which add-ons are these, specifically?
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@Dbdfan398 said:
People are putting too much focus on me saying I just want killers to be scary, as in the horror kind of scary.
I mean survivors dont fear killers. They bully them, causing killers to run blight / nurse who are the only killers they fear. Then complain they see nothing but nurse.
I just got out of a match that in by my first down 3 gens were nearly done, it was on the game and I was just devouring pallets. Even one of the twitch streamers I was against said holy ######### is it already nearly over?
BHVR making previously entire builds basekit for survivor is allowing them to bring entire bully builds.
The survivors should never be able to just bully killers its stupid.
So what you're asking for is for killers to be unconditionally insurmountable. I see.
That's not going to happen.
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@LuthirFontaine said:
I hear killers complain about boil over but every time I use it the killer barely notices what gives?!
Boil Over is one of these perks that are unbelievably aggravating to play against if someone pulls it off, but it's very hard to use. It's just overall an unhealthy perk and should never have been buffed.
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I hate tunnelling and camping. I don't do either, under any circumstances. If I see the most recently unhooked survivor, even if they're my only target, I ignore them and find someone else. I'll even ignore folks that I feel where unhooked too recently, even if they weren't the most recent.
I like giving survivors a more fun match, and letting them get better BP hauls.
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@DEADMAN5TOAST said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336338#Comment_3336338
Well for starters yall seem to have each others back like yall butt buddies or something
So are the people who say DH does need nerfing in one big polyamorous relationship too?
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336255#Comment_3336255
Pretty sure it's not, but even if it is, it's not that big of a deal that it needs to be killswitched. Killswitch is for game-breaking bugs, and this is not.
Inner Healing wasn't gamebreaking either, but that got killswitched.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3335616#Comment_3335616
1) FoV slider, so that killers aren't forced to deal with outdated mechanics related to their terrible FoV
2) Quieter chase music. This includes Nurse, because BHVR actively reduced her quality of life, by purposely giving her new chase music that is both way too loud, and has a bunch of thud noises in it, which makes it absolutely miserable to hear survivors.
3) More reliable survivor noises. We have a sound occlusion mechanic that can muffle or delete sounds if we don't have line of sight with the survivor, even if the survivor is behind a paper thin unenclosed wall. Bonus improvement: the 100% sound reduction survivor perks could be nerfed down to 75%.
4) Change the survivor injured pose, so it's not leaning forward so much, so the survivors hitbox matches their character a lot more, and so survivors aren't whipping around like a rag doll when they are spinning their controls. Bonus improvement: a survivor spinning their camera shouldn't affect how quickly they can turn their character.
I can agree with most of those, except the sound thing. It should work as can be expected, that I agree with, but nerfing sound-blocking perks from 100% to 75% defeats their purpose entirely and isn't QoL, but a nerf to perks that already aren't good.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3335427#Comment_3335427
Killers got zero quality of life improvements. How many people have you heard say "wow, the killer experience feels better because I kick pallets ever so slightly faster"? How many people have you heard say "wow, the killer experience feels better because I recover ever so slightly faster"? Quality of life improvements are supposed to make the playing experience feel better, and none of those killer changes did that. Meanwhile, we had survivor quality of life improvements that were so exciting that someone from BHVR ran to the forums and was super excited to let us know about these exciting changes. Do you think that would EVER happen to killers? Do you think anyone from BHVR would EVER run to the forums to let us know about exciting killer changes?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3335420#Comment_3335420
Your opinion doesn't matter. If some killers think BHVR is showing a double standard, by placing so much focus on quality of life changes for survivors, and at the same time absolutely refusing to even comment on whether or not killers will ever get any quality of life improvements, then it's both related and relevant for people to be upset at BHVR for the lack of killer quality of life improvements.
What kind of QoL improvements would you want to see for killers? Because the only things I've seen so far that qualifies as a QoL improvement would be FoV adjustments, and Nurse's chase theme being quieter.
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The mori one is the only one that surprises me. I already knew about D/Cs not counting, and a bleed-out has never been counted as a kill for the killer.
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I wholeheartedly agree. He's got huge map pressure, he's great at jumpscaring during nightfall, and his power is actually interesting as anti-loop!
The brown add-on that highlights locked lockers is also kind of nutty value for how cheap it is. It's great intel and I've even scored locker-downs off it!
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@LordSturm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/363296/leaving-until-tunneling-is-addressed
That's not tunneling, that's just camping.
Realistically your solution to being camped is to either not get downed or to play in a SWF that can coordinate a save or slap some Reassurance on you and win the game while you're on hook.
Many solutions for camping have been attempted and all have failed, so that's really the best we've got. Any sort of "if the killer is too close to the hook....." change is abused by the other survivors in some way, or ends up not fixing the problem at all.
Actually, only one thing was ever tried, once, six years ago. Since then, the only thing that can be construed as trying to curb camping was Reassurance, and that was butchered to no longer work against it before it could hit live.
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Second Wind/Renewal
Remove the activation requirement. It already requires a hookstate, which is one of the highest costs in the game. This perk won't break if it allows you to skip a heal twice, with no questions asked.
This is not happening
Landing a great skillcheck reduces any active 'Broken' status effect timer by 1 second. This perk is sort of okay, but I think the big ticket is how it can interact with perks that inflict Broken. To bolster that synergy, this is my suggestion.
Premonition
Upon activation, you gain 2% haste for 10 seconds. Premonition has its niche against stealth killers, because I think it circumvents Undetectable, but it's generally pointless against anything else. A small 'startle' effect seems like it would give the perk a bit of value when you're not up against a stealth killer.
Potential Energy
Gain a token for every 1% of progress you would've made
OR
You lose half of your current tokens, rounded down, whenever you lose a health state while carrying tokens.
The double whammy of being guaranteed to lose a bit of progress on top of losing a LOT of progress if the killer is defending a gen (Which is what this perk is supposed to be for) makes this perk's risks outweigh its benefits.
Also, unconditionally: You no longer lose stacks upon failing a skillcheck. Gens blow up all the time when you let go, even when there isn't a skillcheck, this perk should not be hampered by that.
Technician
Within a range of 24 meters: generators that are under the effect of Eruption, Overcharge or Dragon's Grip are highlighted in red. The most progressed generator is highlighted in white. This is a training wheels perk first and foremost, but that makes it useless for players that are more familiar with the game. This change would turn the perk into a mild counter to gen-trapper perks.
Mettle of Man
Complete rework: Every protection hit you take grants you a token. If you have at least one token, you gain a 3% haste benefit. If you have at least 2 tokens, you gain a 25% increase to Great skillcheck zones. At 3 tokens, gain endurance. Taking a hit at 3 tokens will consume all tokens. This gives the perk some additional, more achievable value, instead of being a full on all-or-nothing perk.
Buckle Up
You gain a 50% healing speed increase when healing a downed survivor. Helps this perk achieve its goal.
Visionary
Cooldown removed. You see the auras of survivors working on gens you can see. This helps with coordination.
Self-Preservation
You also gain 5% haste for 7 seconds. It's hard to buff this one, since it can be valuable, but it does require the Yun-Jin to break line of sight. A slight haste might just help with that.
Boon: Dark Theory
Radius increased from 24 meters to 32 meters. If multiple boons are equipped, all boons will operate on the worst parameters. This perk's effect is hard to bolster without going overboard, but a radius increase makes it easier to apply.
Corrective Action
Completing a cooperative action with 3 or more tokens remaining grants you and your cooperator 10% haste for 10 seconds, and consumes two tokens. This one's tricky to buff because its function is so niche, but if you're to be babysitting another survivor and they're doing well, some encouragement might put some pep in their step. This also gives it more value under pressure.
Inner Focus
While within 12 meters of another survivor's scratch marks, those scratch marks last 50% longer. This makes it easier to confuse a killer through the use of an ally's scratch marks.
Calm Spirit
Removed action speed penalty on opening chests and breaking or blessing totems.
Claustrophobia
Reduce radius to 26 meters, but every generator completed increases the radius by 6 meters. Upon the third and fifth generator, this perk also blocks pallets.
Deerstalker
Global range. It's really hard to buff this perk without making it a slugging tool.
Distressing
Increases Lullaby radius as well, and causes the Lullaby to count as Terror Radius for the purpose of other perks. Distressing by itself might seem weak, but its increased terror radius makes it harder for survivors to read the killer's position, giving it some stealth potential. Its other aspect is that it is a synergy perk for things like Coulrophobia and Dissolution, but that doesn't work on killers with a Lullaby. This fixes that.
Insidious
Increases gen regression speed of gens within 20 meters by 50% while active. Does not work when within 20 meters of a hooked survivor. This gives it potential to use a generator as bait, rather than a hooked survivor.
Unrelenting
Gain a 3% haste for 5 seconds upon missing an attack. It's kind of niche, but it's useful, this just bumps it up a little bit.
Blood Echo
Hitting a survivor marks them with Blood Echo. When hooking a survivor, all marked survivors become Exhausted for 45 seconds. If they are injured, they are also afflicted with Haemorrhage and Mangled. Current issue is just that it's hard to get a hook in while survivors are injured, so it needs to work differently. This makes it much easier to get its value to actually proc.
Gearhead
Gain a token every time a survivor loses a health state. While you have a token, any time a survivor makes a Great skillcheck, a token is consumed, the progress bonus for that skillcheck is halved, and their aura is revealed for 10 seconds. This adds some more definite value and makes the perk more consistent.
Deathbound
While under the effect of Deathbound, every 20 seconds they are near the healed survivor, their aura is revealed for 3 seconds. This creates more consistent value for this perk, making its counterplay an evaluation of benefits.
Dragon's Grip
Cooldown reduced from 80 seconds to 40 seconds.
Hex: Crowd Control
When a survivor performs a rushed vault through a window, that window is blocked as long as the hex remains active. Improves consistency and adds pressure on survivors to cleanse it.
Dissolution
Injuring a survivor by any means grants a token, up to 2 tokens. When a survivor vaults a pallet within your terror radius, a token is consumed, and the pallet is destroyed. Improves consistency by removing the stringent time limit.
Septic Touch
While under the effect of Septic Touch, the size of great skillcheck zones is reduced by 100%, and the size of good skillcheck zones is reduced by 50%. Makes healing harder, giving it more consistent value.
Terminus
Survivors under the effect of Terminus cannot gain Endurance by any means. Improves end-game control.
Hex: Face the Darkness
Reduced scream interval from 25 seconds to 15 seconds. 25 seconds is just too infrequent. This could make it a serious powerhouse combo with Thrill of the Hunt.
Unnerving Presence
Reduces the size of great skillcheck zones by 100%. Gives it more definitive, consistent value across skill ranks.
Predator
While within 6 meters of a survivor's scratch marks, this perk charges up. Once it is fully charged, it reveals the aura of the tracked survivor for 6 seconds. This improves its tracking potential and might make it useful in chase.
Bloodhound
While within 6 meters of any bloodpool, this perk charges up. Once fully charged, gain a 5% haste bonus for 10 seconds. This improves its functionality when chasing a wounded survivor.
Shadowborn
Reduces terror radius by 25%. While there are no survivors in your terror radius, you gain 10% haste. This effect persists for 3 seconds after a survivor enters your terror radius. Shadowborn is disabled while under the effect of Undetectable. The FoV thing seems like it should be basekit, which means Shadowborn needs a new purpose. I decided to make it a sneakier perk, while also giving it some map traversal potential.
Thanatophobia
Increased slowdown per stack from 2% to 3.5%, and reduced the bonus for all survivors being injured from 12% to 6%. While old Thana was perhaps a bit too oppressive, the new Thana is unusable on anyone but Plague and Legion. This should push towards a bit more of a middle-of-the-road solution.
Dying Light
Whenever a survivor is unhooked, they become the obsession. If an obsession dies, you cannot gain any more tokens, and the maximum number of tokens is reduced to 6. This makes it somewhat anti-tunnel incentive, and preserves its effect in diminished state once the obsession is killed.
Hex: Ruin
Increase regression speed from 100% to 200%. If a generator is blocked, the regression rate is halved. The regression rate nerf was unnecessary with the perk also disabling itself upon a survivor's death. I'm just a little hesitant about gen-blocker perks synergising with this thing, so I'm giving it that little bit of anti-synergy, but it might not even be necessary.
Beast of Prey
Bloodlust no longer ends when you lose chase. This means a killer can gain bloodlust off one target, become Undetectable, and then rush to another target, spreading pressure and confusing the survivors.
Territorial Imperative
When you damage a generator, Territorial Imperative activates. If you are more than 24 meters away from the damaged generator, the first time a survivor comes within 12 meters of it, you gain a loud noise notification, the survivor's aura is revealed for 7 seconds, and Territorial Imperative deactivates. Improves its usability as an intel perk, while getting rid of the basement dependency. In part because I think the basement should be removed, it only boosts tunnelling and camping.
Hex: Huntress Lullaby
You can no longer gain tokens when the hex is destroyed, but the effect remains.
Overwhelming Presence
Gain 5 seconds of killer instinct on any survivor that uses an item within your terror radius. I think this perk is decently useful in a synergised build, this just bumps it up with some intel.
Fire Up
Increased from 4% per stack to 5% per stack. I think this perk has potential but just doesn't quite cut it.
Hangman's Trick
Any survivor that sabotages a hook is afflicted with exhaustion and 10% hindered for 10 seconds. Really punish those sabos.
Surveillance
When regression is interrupted, gain 5% haste for 10 seconds. Allows you to actually do something with the intel.
Furtive Chase
Value of each token changed from -4 meters to -20%. This gives it more consistency between different killers, and a more thrilling maximum potential.
Whew, that was way more work than I thought it would be...
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@Forza said:
ya the game feels different on some kind of fundamental level. it does help you make better decisions and i feel like that's actually a problem. in solo queue half the fun is not knowing what the hell is going on. now a lot of that mystery is gone.
I feel like there might be an opening for new 'challenge' type perks. If No Mither can allow you to royally mess yourself up for the sake of 'challenge', maybe we can get some other perks that shut down the new UI in exchange for other benefits?
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3335002#Comment_3335002
For the...ninth time now - who exactly is 'they' and why are they representative of all killers?
I keep asking this and you keep dodging.
You'd have to go back to figure out the exact names, but that's a pointless exercise. The point is that there were plenty of killer players standing by those standpoints, broadcasting them on the forums, and evidently they're the ones BHVR listened to.
You'll probably draw in however many are left if you make a discussion titled 'camping and tunnelling should be nerfed'.
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@JordanMalicious said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3334395#Comment_3334395
No, killers didn't ask for it, they simply pointed out that because of how the game is in its current state, camping and tunneling is a viable way to secure kills. It doesn't mean that wanted that to be the most efficient tactic available.
You're conflating the issue by suggesting that because killers pointed out an objective fact, that its what they wanted all along, which simply isn't true.
No, they didn't say 'it's a viable way to secure kills'. They said 'it's a valid strategy', or 'it's the only way to win'. It wouldn't make sense for them to say 'it's a viable way to secure kills', because everyone that complains about these tactics -knows- they're viable strategies. That's part of why they were complaining.
And while no, they didn't say they wanted them to be the most efficient tactics available, if anyone brought up the concept of nerfing those tactics, there would be more than enough pushback, ranging from 'it's just the killer doing their job' to 'they tried a single thing 6 years ago and that didn't work so no'.
Even in this thread there's a couple of people that are stating that tunnelling and camping should not be nerfed. The result is that the game is now balanced around camping and tunnelling being in the game. Killers aren't having fun. Survivors aren't having fun. But at least camping and tunnelling are still around.
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3334744#Comment_3334744
I guess we’re just going to disagree then, I do think most killer players that want 12 hook games viable want camping/tunneling much weaker or impossible. If 12 hook games against equally skilled high mmr swf groups was viable I would even give the unhooked people zero collision until a conspicuous action or another person was hooked so they literally couldn’t be tunneled. (exceptions would need to be made for certain circumstances of course). People that do want 12 hook games viable but don’t want changes to camping/tunneling I would not agree with then. I don’t want them to exist they’re only forced to in the current state. We at least agree on wanting the same end goals though.
We at least agree on wanting the same end goals though.
Amen to that!
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@StarLost said:
Do you know what an analogy is?
In this case? Figurative speech designed to illustrate a point by comparing one of the items under discourse to another.
He's saying that telling killers to 2-hook everyone before killing anyone is like telling survivors they need to partially complete 5 gens before finishing any of them.
That depends very much on a wide variety of circumstances. If the repairing survivors are on the other side of the map, the rescue and healing is going to take way longer. If the killer has good mobility (Sadako, Dredge, Demogorgon) a new chase can be started very quickly. You can intercept the person going for the unhook, which means the time they spent moving to the hook now benefits the killer instead.
Can is the operative word here. It's a possibility, sure, but it's not exactly a likelihood.
Also...what's Demo doing on that list? Demo isn't going to be intercepting, he's going to be using his portals to try and pressure gens. Then generally losing because of how bad shred is now.
Yeah, I wasn't responding to the 'stop doing gens at 33%' part, darling.
Also...what's Demo doing on that list? Demo isn't going to be intercepting, he's going to be using his portals to try and pressure gens.
That's what I'm referring to. I specifically mentioned him as a killer that, after hooking a survivor, can very quickly start a new chase.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3334572#Comment_3334572
The irony here is that all those things you said killers determine and exaggerate can literally be applied to survivors as well and do, I’d argue even more often as well. That said I think where this falls apart is that “most” killers while pushing for changes to not make it required also are pushing for changes simultaneously that make camping/tunneling either impossible or much harder to do. So their idea of when it’s required is much less relevant since in order to get the improvements they want their idea of when they need doesn’t matter as much since they can’t anyway hypothetically. Very, very few killers players I see are pushing for hard survivor nerfs but just want camping and tunneling left just as viable. Generally speaking that isn’t a thing. We’re essentially going into talking about bias opinions or both sides here is what it boils down to of which many will exist, but I think we can objectively look at balance with enough experience to try and make as close to objective changes as we can so that either sides bias view will just be that, views, and less a factor on deciding to or not tunnel/camp.
That said I think where this falls apart is that “most” killers while pushing for changes to not make it required also are pushing for changes simultaneously that make camping/tunneling either impossible or much harder to do.
They're not. That's the problem. They are adamantly against camping/tunnelling nerfs, and want 12-hooking to be buffed to the point where it exceeds camping/tunnelling in efficiency, -without- nerfs being applied to camping/tunnelling.
I appreciate that you may be of the opinion that camping/tunnelling should get nerfed, but that wasn't the case for the crowd that BHVR listened to when they designed 6.1 and onwards.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3334698#Comment_3334698
Survivors can recover very quickly from whichever bad situation they find themselves in, as long as it's nothing permanent. That means there is no pressure in having all 4 survivors injured when they can all heal up in 20 seconds, 1 person on hook is little to no pressure because unhooking and healing go faster than chasing and hooking. If a killer can keep up the cycle of hooking and chasing with only 2 survivors on gens, then that's an easy game for them. I have more than 1400 hours on killer and I almost NEVER can keep this cycle up. Unhooking + healing often takes around 15-20 seconds (keep in mind that this can go MUCH quicker). With many killers I'll be happy to be in another chase after those 20 seconds!
It's not 1 survivor on gens, 1 in chase, 1 on hook and 1 on the way to unhook all game. This is a situation that will occur but most of the time it's 3 survivors on gens and 1 in chase. Maybe Nurse and Blight can keep this up. But tell me how in the world would you apply this kind of pressure with Michael Myers, Sadako, Doctor, Clown, Trapper.... all the way up to even Hillbilly and Demo, who have map mobility and chasing powers yet still struggle to hold their own.
I will say though, 400% (which would be 400% * 0,25c/s = 1c/s, exactly the same speed that one survivor has at repairing a gen) base regression is a bad idea. 50% though instead of the current 25% would be nice.
1 person on hook is little to no pressure because unhooking and healing go faster than chasing and hooking.
That depends very much on a wide variety of circumstances. If the repairing survivors are on the other side of the map, the rescue and healing is going to take way longer. If the killer has good mobility (Sadako, Dredge, Demogorgon) a new chase can be started very quickly. You can intercept the person going for the unhook, which means the time they spent moving to the hook now benefits the killer instead.
1 person on hook is plenty of pressure, it's just not 'win the game right then and there' levels of pressure like having 2 hooked at once is. But it also shouldn't be that overbearing. 1 person on hook is the kind of pressure where neither killer nor survivors clearly have the upper hand, and the game can still go either way. It's really healthy.
@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3334698#Comment_3334698
...
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/8AVCXHSAW1O8/image.png
Why are you taking an analogy literally?
Do you know what an analogy is?
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@Marik1987 said:
You dont want killers to tunnel and spread the hooks?
Fine. How about doing 33% of a gen and moving on to the next one etc. - after 5 have 33%, you are allowed to do the next 33%.
Thats the counterpart. Survivors tunnel gens at maximum possibility with Toolboxes, Prove, Hyperfocus etc., but the killer has to worry about your "fun".
Okay then...
I do NOT like to go after the weakling over and over to create the 3v1, but that is the best and by far most viable strat.
It will become more and more meta, because gens fly and our gen-regression-perks are weaker than survivors BASE (!) Gen-Speed (400% is survivors Base-Speed).
I dont have a perk which decreases with 400%. And then, I havent even spoken about the many ways you can speed these 400% up. Btw. why should it be a perk. This should be Killers Base-Kick. Then, remove all speedup and regression tools on both sides and see where it goes.
I'll tell you where it goes: Straight to 100% kill rate, because survivors literally cannot finish gens if the killer can break it down as fast as they can optimally repair it.
There's a reason gen regression never hit the same speed as survivor repairs: Because it's broken as heck. I mean, you're even taking 400% repair speed when the only way survivors ever hit that is if the killer is literally AFK. Vast majority of time, if the killer keeps the pressure up, that repair speed is going to be around 100%: One survivor on hook, one in chase, one on rescue duty, only one on gen.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
The thing about Reassurance is that it is really bad against the one thing it should be good at - Anti-Camping. Since they changed the PTB-version, the Perk might only be valuable for 4 man SWFs. And there are better Perks to use out there.
The only time I see Reassurance being used is when I am just about to be unhooked so with 0 value.
When it comes to tunneling overall, it is without a doubt easier. Every Anti-Tunnel measurement resolves around Endurance, one hit and everything is gone. DS is worthless, it grants 7 meters of distance. It was already a Joke against strong Killers, now it is a Joke against basically every Killer (except maybe for someone like Trapper or Myers).
And when it comes to comp - Comp cannot be compared to Public Matches. It is a different game.
TBF, in regards to Reassurance: That is what the community wanted it to be good at. But like 3 killer players complained that they weren't guaranteed a free kill if they just facecamped someone all the way into end-game, so the perk got a nerf specifically to make it really bad for solo players, and make it really bad against camping.
So clearly, while everyone wanted Reassurance to be an anti-camp perk, BHVR didn't.
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While it's certainly true that pre-game co-ordination is strong, I also think that the most powerful thing survivors can do isn't just being efficient on gens, it's turning a 1v1 chase into a 2v1. Chain flashlight-saves, pallet saves, sabo saves, breakout + boil over, all the usual bully squad trappings. And that requires constant intel and coordination.
I think killers should get better pick-up protection after failing a hook.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3334395#Comment_3334395
Valid tactics and necessary because of poor balance. That is “not” saying they “want” those things, that is saying it’s necessary. Those are two very different things. Killers don’t “want” those things, it was them saying it’s required until we get changes to make it not required.
Here's the problem with that: that bar, the part where it's 'not required'? It's the killer mains that determine where that bar lies. And that bar has been dropping -fast-. Not to mention that what killers consider to be 'fair' is also pretty damn far off from reason in a lot of cases. It's way, WAY too common for a killer player to call BS on some game mechanic, and then the match they use to highlight it is a 4K.
Also, @Crowman coming through for me and immediately proving my point.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3334365#Comment_3334365
That is not what killers wanted whatsoever. That’s strawmanning. What killers wanted was map reworks and and weaker killers to be buffed.
No, every time anyone wanted to address tunnelling or camping, the thread got snowed in with 'valid tactics' and 'can't win without it' comments. Killers asked for tunnelling and camping to be protected.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3334328#Comment_3334328
If it hasn't been fixed after all this time, it is probably intentional. As i mentioned, the point is to give the killer more pressure/regression if they come up on survivors on a gen and they wait too long to let go. Granted it is RNG based. I'd argue it should be normalized and not RNG in that case.
Then just make it so you get a failed skillcheck if you let go of a gen while in chase. Problem solved.
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@Mistseer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3334340#Comment_3334340
erm i am sorry if i seem very wrong but i dont think many killers wanted the "nice guy perks" to be nerfed? or if they did not to this point where they have to not care about the survivors fun at all?
Killers wanted camping and tunnelling protected above all else, so that's where we're at.
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@StarLost said:
TL/DR:
- Gens can go way faster than they did pre 6.1.0, due to a lot of regression perks getting nerfed and some 'faster gen' perks being insane especially in SWFs.
- 'Nice guy' killer builds are less viable/useful, due to the nerf to BBQ, Pop etc.
- Camping is less effective as a 'hail Mary' strategy.
It's an interesting take. Not quite sure where I come down on this or if there's a solution.
TL;DR: Killers got everything they asked for and are failing to realise that none of it was what they wanted.
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@Blinckx said:
What a surprise huh? I can't wait until everyone realizes that this so-called QoL (which is a buff to both soloQ and SFW) without counterbalancing the game, will only lead to unbridled tunnelling/camping and will only ever get worse
Literally EVERYTHING the devs do that isn't hard-buffing killers 'will lead to unbridled tunnelling/camping', because it's the killers' beatstick. It's their answer to literally everything.
with the gen progress indicator allowing accurate timings
Like what does this even mean? Does this person think that people hit better skillchecks now because of this gen progress indicator? What the F are these 'accurate timings' supposed to be?
But no, this minute change is enough to go 'tunnel and camp' some more.
Because literally every change is.
You really need to be stripped of your toys if you're just going to ruin the game for everyone else the second anything happens that you don't like.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3333963#Comment_3333963
So normalize the RNG, so you are guaranteed a skillcheck every "X charges" at minimum. Basically, let's say we want at minimum you do get a skillcheck every 15 seconds on a generator. Every second you have a 1% chance to get a skill check, but every second you don't get a skill check, you increase that chance, up to 100% after 15 seconds. Once you get a skillcheck, that chance reduces back down to 1%, and then pauses the timer for maybe a few seconds so you don't get another 1 immediately (1 out of 100 chance)
Just figure out how many skill checks you want per bar for every action and problem solved.
We could do that.
Or we could just not punish survivors for failing skillchecks they never got. Letting go of a gen before a skillcheck is on screen should just cancel the skillcheck, if it's not a special one.
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@wydyadoit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3333993#Comment_3333993
I was running trapper perks for adept trapper. If i take the time and effort to run iron grasp and agitation i just go full basement build with scourge hook and distressing.
Then you're already running Agitation. How are you not reaching a hook just because of breakdown?
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@Mew said:
dbd devs making the killswitch and then refusing to killswitch literally anything thats broken.
They killswitched the killswitch.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3333504#Comment_3333504
The problem is, people act like it isn't intentional.
Think of it this way. How do you prevent this from happening? You wait until you get a skillcheck, then you do it, then let go.
When can you NOT do that? When the killer is coming right at you. If a killer is coming right at you, i think you'd mess up repairing the generator too right? That is the point.
When can you NOT do that?
When the game randomly decides to give you no skillcheck.
Ask either Autodidact user, that RNG is F'd.
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Wait till OP discovers that hooks can be permanently broken!
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@appleas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3332828#Comment_3332828
A kill is a kill, I don’t believe that every game is 12 hookable and winnable especially when going against players of similar skill level or higher. This game definitely isn’t balanced for hooks and there’s no reason for the Killers to nerf their gameplay around it.
Keeping track of hook states so you know who to not hook to get out of the game asap is counterproductive. Keeping track of the hook states of 4 people is going to be more confusing than 1/2 people especially if people use similar characters/outfits.
You're still going to feel extremely frustrated when you're getting matched against higher and higher skill survivors, in sweatier and sweatier matches, just because you yourself employed the sweatiest methods of getting your kills in.
Sure, if you want to win above literally everything else, camp and tunnel to your heart's content. But if you want to feel better about your skill as killer and have a more engaging, fun match, absolutely avoid camping and tunnelling like the plague, because they will inflate your MMR and pit you against stronger survivors.
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IIRC, BHVR stated that if a match has a D/C in it, the entire match is disregarded for the purpose of stat tracking.
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@BarnesFlam said:
Not DBD but it concerns the topic of time-limited cosmetics: https://overwatch.blizzard.com/en-us/news/23910163/
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/2B3PWKDSYEBH/image.png
After a lot of complains, Overwatch 2 has decided to unvault a majority of their skins that were limited to buy only during events. It seems FOMO is a thing a lot of people DO NOT WANT. I wish someone else in the room would take a note of this cough 🙄
Also, just today, two games that were dependent of FOMO are shutting down: Rumbleverse (battle pass + rotation store) and Apex Legends Mobile (battle pass + rotation store + lootboxes). 🤔
IIRC, SMITE used to do limited availability, and they went back on that, too. They no longer do time-bound exclusives, they just make skins more expensive when you've missed them. (Possibly barring licensed stuff)
Time-walling is a very short-term profit kind of thing when it comes to digital goods. The material is there, the data is available for copying without anyone's effort, you can literally make money from nothing, but then the higher-ups just decide to spike their numbers a bit by preying on FOMO.
It pays out considerably less in the long run. Hopefully BHVR will realise that in due time.