Evan_
Evan_
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- Evan_
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The one that's doing literally anything else than a gen.
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You have met the most efficient tunneler ever.
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I like how you keep saying it's "just two perks-slots".
Remember that killer only takes four perks to the trial. Survivors bring twelve. FTP+Buckle up is 'just two perks slots' - they have ten more.
Two killer perks slots is half of what an entire side brings into a trial.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I can't imagine that scenario happening often but would suck for sure. I feel the same way when killers give hatch to the worst player on the team who did nothing.
Giving hatch is my expression of respect for the entire team. Sadly only the last one gets to enjoy it - and that's usually the Distortion gamer. :]
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3549283#Comment_3549283
The gen tracker and hook circle for killer are identical. They give a general understanding of the 'game score' but give no indication of which objective you should focus on to play optimally.
Giving the killer an indicator that specifically said 'go for this person next' is equivalent to survivors having an aura for 'do this gen next', which is clearly absurd.
But in both cases if you're paying attention, you can figure it out for yourself with game sense as the match plays out.
Nope, killer's hook tacker is not like survivors seeing a gen's aura. We still need to find our objectives (just one of those aren't keep running around).
If you want an actually fitting analogy, it's the same as survivors being able to see a gen's level of progress. And they do.
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@Raconteurminator said:
Yes, basekit Unbreakable would completely eliminate slugging from the game. It would also completely eliminate Killer players from the game. If a Killer downed you, it's their choice to pick you up, their choice to leave you for however long, it's their choice to try for the 4K; that's how player agency works. If you want the game to make decisions for the player and force those decisions through, start a petition for Killer bots. Basekit Unbreakable was dropped because it was an abominably terrible idea.
I thought this is the goal. Survivor could do gens without the slightest distraction.
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I play Clown with speed perks.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548819#Comment_3548819
When I say immediately, I mean more in the sense of that being your only goal. It's where the term comes from- tunnel vision. If you ignore macro play entirely in favour of trying to tunnel someone out immediately, and those chases aren't exceedingly fast, all you've done is gift the survivor team a lot of uncontested generator time. It's at best a gamble with a razor's edge, because if you do it poorly, you practically lose by default.
This obviously goes quadruple for facecamping, but you aren't arguing in favour of that here so I won't belabour that point.
What I'm getting at is that macro play is very important and the actual strength of hooks is a big part of why. You don't need to eliminate someone in three chases if the way you're playing occupies multiple survivors at once to drag them off generators.
Indeed. I have nothing to argue here. Tunneling is not the "I win" tactic (as some like to paint it), but a gamble. And facecamping is almost all the time a sure way to fail.
Sadly the upcoming change in it's current form often makes it more difficult to secure bonus hook-states originating from survivor mistakes (arriving late to unhook), or capitalizing on opportunities when facecamping -is- the optimal play - like when you can hook multiple survivors close to each other, or even at the very same spot - for example in basement.
I have the feeling that many killers will resort to other less enjoyable methods of securing kills instead of optimal macro play, regardless of if their reason is their lack of skill, or just their preference of characters who's kit is not optimal for tracking multiple targets while quickly traversing the map. I feel that will further widen the gap between killers with high mobility and the others - and players tend to agree that the latter group is already not at a very good spot.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548812#Comment_3548812
Yes, which is why I just explained that the strongest and most efficient method of killing survivors is to not facecamp or try and tunnel someone out immediately.
The things that have been touched so far - camping and tunnelling - are easier. They are not stronger, and they weren't stronger before these changes were rolled out either.
You may not be wrong that people are going to try and do bleed-out or endgame builds more frequently now that they can't stand by the hook and leverage survivor player's general desire not to be bored out of their skulls for a match, but that doesn't mean hooks were nerfed. It means the path of least resistance suddenly started looking a little more hostile, and the unexplainable urge gamers actually have is to try and find as many shortcuts as possible to a win.
If necessary, those methods can be nerfed too. Eventually, players will realise that the strongest path was there all along and just required a little more effort... or they won't and the tools they try and use aren't free value anymore. Either way, the game improves.
It's interesting that you say 'not tunneling out someone immediately' isn't the most efficient method. Are you suggesting that tunneling someone out later in the game is more efficient?
I'm failing to see how eliminating a survivor after three chases is less efficient than doing so after (for example) five. In both approaches, the number of survivors being in chase / on hook is the same. The only difference is that one less survivor is doing gens during two of the chases if the first sacrifice happens on the third hook.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548800#Comment_3548800
When you get a hook, one survivor is immobilised. -25% generator efficiency while they're there, assuming all survivors are still alive.
If you get into a chase while that first survivor is still hooked, two survivors are occupied. -50% generator efficiency.
Because you aren't by the hook (and so a save is possible), and there's a timer before hook stages progress, a third survivor has to go rescue their hooked teammate. -75% generator efficiency.
Hooks aren't just the way you achieve your overall win condition, they're also your basekit slowdown. It's temporary, but your goal as killer is to repeat it as often as possible, and that requires not camping and not tunnelling by default. None of the changes we've received to hooks have changed this, and in fact they've been largely aimed at the ways people try to circumvent using hooks this way in favour of tactics that require less effort - by standing directly in front of a hooked survivor, and/or trying to immediately down them as soon as they're unhooked.
Yes, but you also have to see that the killer's goal is killing survivors.
There are multiple ways to achieve this: putting them on X number of hooks, bleeding them out, using specific killer powers or perks that instantly kill, or preventing them to leave in time during egc. As these methods are not equally easy to perform, any change regarding their mechanisms also changes their relative strengths.
Since gamers tend to have an unexplainable urge to win in their games, we often find that when the relative strengths of their methods for achieving their goals change, they adapt.
In this specific case, we happen to have a great set of perks that aid the bleeding out, or the keeping gates closed in endgame method. I wouldn't be surprised if their popularity will skyrocket if killers will find that it takes more and more chases to eliminate survivors the conventional way, while the time it takes for their opponents to complete their goal isn't changing.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548791#Comment_3548791
Not really? None of those things actually affect the strength of a hook, which is that it immobilises one survivor and requires another survivor to come and save- except for the self-unhook, but that's only when you're camping, which is when you aren't getting proper value from hooks anyway.
It's only less appealing if you want to force someone to progress hook stages without being unhooked, or if you want to put someone back on the hook immediately to chew through hook stages. Neither of those are the main strength of hooks, so the changes aren't actually nerfing them.
So what exactly is the strength of a hook if not that survivors can die on them? Farming bp?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548772#Comment_3548772
What?
No, my point is that you never have to facecamp or immediately hard tunnel someone. I think you're conflating two separate parts of the message there, the only time I bring up slugging is in response to this idea that killers are being forced to go for 12 hooks, which is a claim with zero evidence.
Also, what do you mean by nerfing the hooks?
Good examples for nerfing the hooks is removing hook-grabs, allowing self-unhooks under various conditions, or giving an Endurance effect to anyone who goes off a hook.
All of these changes make hooking survivors a less appealing option as opposed to any alternative we have.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547701#Comment_3547701
Tackling those first two points together: No you don't. You do not ever have to facecamp or hard tunnel someone immediately off hook. Facecamping is a pretty bad tactic in almost all cases if you want to win, and hard tunnelling only works if you've picked the right target + even then isn't as effective as other strategies.
I imagine what you mean is that you sometimes have to proxy camp, or prioritise someone who was unhooked recently. I would disagree with the phrasing "have to", but there are circumstances where that's the optimal play. Since neither of those things are being touched right now, though, I don't see any reason to shift the discussion to them.
Moving on, you don't need to go for 8-12 hooks? I don't know where that idea came from, there's nothing wrong with getting snowball downs on survivors who haven't been hooked yet/only hooked once and hooking them all at once. That's still a win and that hasn't been taken away from you.
That does baffle me, now that I'm typing it out. Why do people act like there's a hard binary between immediately facecamping and/or tunnelling someone out as quickly as possible, and going for twelve evenly spread hooks on sequential survivors? The game doesn't work like that.
Wait, so your point is that camping or tunneling is not required, because we can also just slug everyone?
I feel that's exactly what we'll do if they keep nerfing the hooks.
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You can google 'translate image' to find sites that do just that.
"Win + shift + s" allows you to copy only the chat-box, and paste it directly into those sites.
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I'm fine with it. If survivors want to use their protection to protect someone else, it's their call. I'm more than happy to down them and put them back on the hook.
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I also think flashlights are op. They make the survivors hound me while I chase them, and waste a lot of time instead of doing gens. I'm really happy that they are back!
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The main thing is not expecting your guards to do damage, but using them for zoning survivors so you get to hit them yourself.
With that said, there are perks and addons that can help your guards actually getting hits. Besides the mandatory Map, I like Assassin's Blade or Call to Arms. I also had great results with Claustrophobia and Fearmonger.
And if you see that a guard is about to get a hit, try to hit right after for a quasi instadown.
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I could see those who don't need BP finding a slugging-focused playstyle appealing.
Good BP and Grade progress is still largely tied to hooks.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547048#Comment_3547048
You can play "nasty and efficient" and still be "nice and fair". I know nasty and nice seem contradictory but it depends on the context.
I'd like a guide for that, for I play both depending on my mood, but can't do both at the same time. Best I can manage is shift the approach mid-trial to adjust for the efficiency of the opposing team.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Up to you how you play. I just personally chose to play on the "nice and fair" side for most part because I try my best to treat others how I like to be treated. Online and off.
I also follow the Golden Rule. That's why I play nasty and efficient, as I prefer if people in online games do their best against me, so I know the results reflect the difference between our skills (as much as it's possible in any given game). Other times I just want to have fun in a chill match, so I also play nice and casual when I feel like it.
Though we are lucky that Pinhead is just a character in dbd and not a player - he also only treats others as he likes to be treated. :P
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3546911#Comment_3546911
"Darn, this guy really knows how to count to 10. Oh well, guess he's just better than me."
So you spend 59 seconds on hook to get best value from anti-camp, you get downed at 70 seconds (assuming you don't use anti-tunnel perks, don't make it to a window or pallet for some reason, and no teammate of you comes to body-block). Add the time of the pickup animation, the hooking animation and the time it takes for the killer to reach the second hook. That is close to 90 seconds. That's exactly the time it takes for the rest of your team to do three entire gens (assuming they have no perks or items that speed the process further).
Repeat the above process for your second hook, and you'll see that the killer gets a loss with 1k by the time you die, even if you start the trial facecamped on hook.
And again, the above numbers assume that your only skill is holding forward while running straight into the deadzone with zero perks that could help you.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3546896#Comment_3546896
Being tunneled immediately off hook is also frustrating. I'm not saying it won't help but there will be a lot of cases where you jump off hook into a dead zone and get nowhere.
Losing is frustrating. But most players tend to see that losing likely happens if you don't play as well as the opponent. You have the opportunity to display your expertise during the entire process of being tunneled, so you can avoid it if you play well. This is not the case while being face-camped. This is the reason that tunneling doesn't getting nerfed (any further), while camping is.
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@EldritchElise87 said:
At that point you may as well get rid of hooks entirely, give survivors a pool of 12 lives that the killer has to down through and the last 4 eliminate the survivors.
Personally that sounds incredibly boring and takes away a good part of the interactions of the game (member how that system worked in last year the nightmare) , but I genuinely dont think you will be happy till thats the case.
One also has to keep in mind that hooking is optional. Going for hooks grants a lot of bp and grade progress for everyone involved, but if someone only wants kills, downed survivors die in 4 minutes. There are also really neat perks and even killers that facilitate such a playstyle. The more base mechanics discourage hooking, the more players will default to slugging. I'm sure we'll see a noticeable uptick of this strategy following even just the current anti-facecamp changes.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3546406#Comment_3546406
They also added new objects for break LoS.
I don't know how to feel about this map.
Well, we could say it's getting more balanced if ranged killers will hate it as much as slow killer already do. :P
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Occasionally. For a fraction second. If the trial was two sided - because from that moment it is not.
Then I down them and wrap up the match, quick and efficient. That's how I express respect to their team they screwed over.
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I have a spotless K/D ratio with every dbd killer besides Twins. Survivors sometimes score more kills on Victor than I do on them. I find this unacceptable.
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Do we really need those lobbies?
What would be the most impactful consequence if we just didn't have them anymore? Some killers would need to go all in with Lightborn or learn to play without it. I think it's a small price to pay.
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3544648#Comment_3544648
i couldn't bring myself to play the game nowadays without dailies or challenges. i won't even touch it if the incentive isn't 100% on either side. dailies can use some reward increase for sure along with the bugfix that causes you to get killer dailies 90% of the time.
I can give you a personal challenge! It's unique, no other dbd player has it. You could be the only one who ever completed it!
Play 1000 trials exclusively with the side / character / perks / playstyle you feel like playing! The reward is a massive amount of BP and XP - you'll get it in small increments after each one.
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It's going to be hard to ingest for some, but I swear this is true:
You don't have to do any challenge or achievement you don't like. Ever.
(source: I play for years, and I don't have a single adept achievement)
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Let me guess... a big content creator tweeted that it's strong, so now it's only a matter of time.
(I'd unfollow if it made a dent..)
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Frankly, this sounds like extortion to me. "Hey, we won't screw up the matchmaking if you gave us quicker and easier progression!"
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When I had an Insidious Basement Bubba phase, I quickly learned to camp the entrance from outside of Kindred range - that happens to be 16 meters, just like the anti-facecamp feature. Insidious will remain as... viable as it always was.
Otherwise I used it on Hux to be undetectable while cycling through the pods... until I learned he does that by default. :P
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@Majin151 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3542012#Comment_3542012
Ah I can't wait for survivors to find a way to abuse this like the last time they tried implementing an anti camp mechanic I can already see them abusing it via having one guy getting chased on a floor above/below the hooked player and bringing map offerings that take you to realms that allow that playstyle
Do you think there are many tiles above / below hooks where they can loop you for 20-30 seconds within a 16m radius circle? Preferably while they are staying outside of that radius, as we've been told that survivors in range slow the progress of the self-unhook timer.
Maybe I'm naive, but I think simply unhooking is less of a hassle and more reliable.
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@Venusa said:
Leave them alone... you're forcing survivors to run nothing but mft adrenaline sprint burst...
If anything UW is problematic and calm spirit needs a buff to not make you handicapped when you run it...
You could also say that survivors running highly reliable aura / scream counter perks forces (well, I'd rather say encourages) killers to run the good ol' slowdown / regression. That gives time to find survivors the old fashioned way.
Maybe that is what we want, but I'm personally always happy to find semi-viable alternatives to stacking the boring generator-perks.
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Legends say that in the highest ranks of competitive play it leans towards survivors, but that only matters for an insignificantly tiny fraction of players. In public matches the deciding factor is how accurately the matchmaking can pit killers and survivor groups of similar efficiency against each other at any given moment.
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Anti-facecamp feature is being worked on, that should ease up STBFL camping.
No need to cripple a perk of m1 killers.
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@Mooks said:
My expectations:
certain parts of the community act overly toxic and insult the devs personally while hiding behind ‚they can’t take criticism‘ while not giving one bit of actual criticism
srsly though, I kinda hope for Blight add on changes, as well as some add on tweaks for other killers as well as perks as that’s kinda the norm now. Two or three maps from the same realm probably getting some balance adjustments. Aaaand. That’s it?
Since when does it take an update to happen? :P
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540178#Comment_3540178
Mandy confirmed that flashlights can still spawn in chests, they just killswitch perks and the item to help lower the consistency of survivors having flashlights.
Ahh well, there goes my theory.
Time to hard tunnel coin-users to save the hassle of filling out forms and uploading videos. So out of pure kindness of course. :P
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Clown is a hidden S++ tier menace. This is why the recent updates
- made him unable to look down
- changed his point of view so his hands cover more of the screen
- removed the mist around bottle icons to confuse players
- made it possible to change bottles already thrown for further confusion
Forget Pig, nerf Clown even harder! We'll compensate by practicing more and playing even nastier! The Clown-threat cannot be contained!
HA-HAA-HAAA! *cough* *cough*
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Xeno looks somewhat like a bug, but I'm sure the devs can tell the difference.
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A fellow on reddit claimed that he opened 30 chests since the kill-switch, and didn't find a single flashlight. That makes me assume beamers don't spawn. Can anybody refute this theory?
If not, I'll smile a bit while thinking of the aspiring exploiters pillaging all the chests instead of doing gens or similar beneficial actions.
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@DwightDwigt said:
It seems like a reasonable reaction to getting toasted...
It would be also reasonable if survivors just burned to death when that happens, but it probably won't happen for balance reasons.
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Clown.
The classic m1 game is satisfying, bottles reward anticipating the moves of survivors - and even my own reaction to them. I also like low-tier. If I do well, I know it was all me and not the powerful tools I picked.
He also has a jolly, heartfelt laughter that elevates the soul.
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@Hanuka5 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/391034/p100s-are-rare-to-see-are-you-sure
I think they are kinda "rare" because there is no use to lvl up a killer that far besides wanting to have prestige 100
Depends on how reliant you are on some higher rarity addons. Permanent lv50 bloodweb is sweet.
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Whatever the survivor says it is. I'm lazy to argue semantics.
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@Nirgendwohin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3537937#Comment_3537937
My question is general. Is there even a penalty for "Working with the opposite team to gain an advantage" since it is neither against the EULA nor the TOS.
The rules section on the bhvr support page lists "working with the opposite team to gain an advantage or grief teammates" as a temp-ban worthy offense. A following post of yours of your mentions that your report was looked at, possibly with additional action taken.
To me that suggests that reporting such infractions makes dbd a more pleasant place.
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When I'm having a sweaty period, the goal is training against the most experienced loopers and coordinated teams I can manage to get matched with.
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I'm very satisfied. I love chasing, and can't care less about defending boring gens. They buffed Coup, and gave us Rapid Brutality! They also tricked survivors into running puny haste and endgame perks.
We may have not arrived to the speedup meta yet, but that's where we are heading, and it looks so much more fun than the slowdown meta. Let's not stop until Clown is S-tier!
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I remember joining this forum, and thinking 'ahh Pinhead is very new, they've yet to add his avatar. They'll probably get to it in the following weeks'.
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@egg_ said:
A normal unhook right now requires (without factoring deli) the agency of another survivor, regardless of what the killer is doing. With the current proposed camping solution, if you stick around the hook, the 3 remaining survivors will just keep doing gens, so you'll have 3 people of gens instead of at most 2, while the hooked survivor has the agency to self unhook
I don't really see how worth camping will be if you say so (after the implementation of the announced camping solution), especially because with 10 seconds bt a survivor can easily make a safe loop and waste some more of your time even if tunneled
An experienced tunneler will either wait out BT or hit through it.
What op was missing from the anti-facecamp announcement is that the survivor won't unhook instantly, but gets the option to do so - so likely they'll wait out the entire hook timer. It would be tunnelers wet dream if the unhook happened automatically.