Doomsaki
Doomsaki
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Updated with agitation and shadowborn.
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@Delfador said:
The only problem I have is territorial imperative. Though the perk is useless as it is, one generator in the basement is not a great idea. I like all the other perks though.
My thought process was that it might be combined with the monstrous shrine basement perk to have a generator with 2 ways to access it. From this, 3-gen strats would be easier.
But if you have any other ideas for how TI could be redone, I'm all ears for other suggestions. 😄
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In light of the last live-stream, I'm going to bump this.
The developers seem interested in fixing situations where the game seems hopeless for one side in an effort to fix disconnects. One of the most hopeless situations in DBD is when a survivor dies or disconnects early. Try winning a match with 3 alive and 4 or 5 generators left and you'll find it an exercise in frustration.
Oftentimes I see everyone disconnecting after that first disconnect happens, but with scaling generator times, there can always be hope for those who remain.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
Wait it stops actions? That's really good actually
I'd assume so given how the Doctor's screams work.
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@HatCreature said:
I can get behind this, there's only 1 perk that gets rid of the Red Stain and it doesn't work, this perk would be perfect for it. But yes we don't know the numbers for this or the other perks and those numbers will make or break everything. Of course I'm expecting something ######### like 12 seconds so it needs to be higher than that. I'm thinking 20/25/30 or 40/55/60
It would synergize with that other red stain perk as well. You can hit the obsession, start another chase or continue after the obsession looper and by the time the duration wears off, you will probably have bloodlust if the chase dragged on.
I could see my hag running this since I often teleport to start new chases for example.
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@Janick said:
@Might_Oakk said:
The devs designed him so you don't use his ability to down survivors. Downing with Frenzy is pretty much similar to blood lusting efficiency wise.The playstyle is once you hit 1 survivor the others nearby are highlighted. You hit everyone nearby then run down the last guy you hit without your power.
The powers strength is when you hit multiples they must heal thus slowing the game.
Power is just a slow down game thing assuming survivors are dumb enough to be close together.
Hello
That is correct. I just wanted to confirm our intention. It is very easy to get a hit with him but harder to down survivor.
At first, the balance is in the favor of the killer then it is put back in the hand of the Survivor. We will probably talk more about the design intention on a future stream. Thank you!
The problem I run into in-game when trying to execute this multi-hit strategy is that on large maps (swamp for example), the generators are too far apart. I can run over to where I think another survivor is but I'll be out of breath far before then. So I'm stuck having to knife and M1 chase people.
If this is to be his design, he needs a longer lasting power.
Basically it goes like this:
-Queue into autohaven
-find a survivor after sometime
-Use power and hit, you seen no one else in range to combo
-Do it again on another survivor
-You see no one in range to combo
-Game is now lost -
@DarkWo1f997 said:
but what it really needs to do, is slow the killer’s movementBoil over is a perk that can easily cause a lot of balance issues. Adding a slow always increases the number of deadzones on the map. An inverted control scheme is a skillcheck on the killer that might cause an initial surprise the first time.
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@Kind_Lemon said:
This would be hard to do, but super cool.Fog scales with height, so some maps would have to be looked at (preschool especially).
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The entity window blocker needs to be more generous and longer lasting.
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I like the basic premise of this. Rescuing someone from a hook and it automatically progressing sabo would help punish tunneling.
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Back when the PTB was in existence, I assumed she sounded consistently like she did on the wiki page which had sound clips back then:
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Its ok to me, but the PTB version was more chilling and spooky. We have lots of killers that make grunts and growling so hearing a high-pitched shrill sound was more unique.
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@powerbats said:
@Doomsaki said:
@Dreamnomad said:
The wraith doesn't need anything. He is in a pretty great place now. If you aren't performing well on him now then it is your fault, not the wraiths.The problem is that there is mathematically not enough time to kill two people before generators complete.
Finding someone at the start, chasing them for 2 or 3 different pallet loops, and doing it over again twice and bam all the generators are done at the high ranks. Wraith doesn't have the map pressure to delay much elsewhere in between. All wraith has going for him in his base kit is 0 terror radius, but killers like myers and pig pretty much do that but more without having to ring a bell and start a chase after survivors have run away a bit. Hillbilly moves faster and gets surprise chases as well.
The best you can do is pray that survivors don't find your ruin totem until its too late.
Wraith at rank 1 are pretty much cleaning house right now and it's rare for them not to get at least 3-4 every game.
That's an interesting claim, but whats the evidence behind that statement. What is he doing that other killers aren't against high ranks? Camping? Gen-patrol? I've given examples on how he's very much eclipsed in terms of base-kit.
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@TiredFluffball said:
@blue4zion said:
Giving him the built-in windstorm was a waste of time since he's slower when he uncloaks. smhAgreed. Once again, instead of actually buffing his base power.. they just made it function differently. The Wraith is still addon dependant. Hell, you actually cover less ground now than you used to.
Well the wraith is lacking an identity. He's weak at chases being an M1 killer. His scouting is eclipsed by hillbilly whose mobility tool also happens to 1-shot people instead of just slowly ringing a bell. Pig and myers have his signature zero terror radius patrolling capability. With bad add-ons, he feels like a pure vanilla killer at times since high ranking survivors pay enough attention to see his cloak shimmer from far away.
Wraith needs to be THE supreme mobility scout, but weak in chases. His cloak needs to make him faster but be on a cooldown until a few seconds after a chase has ended. His stealth could also be a bit more scary looking as well.
Using the above image, terrifying ghostly howl that is rapidly checking all generators on the map within 25 seconds zipping around at 250% movespeed (use imagination on numbers). The survivors are terrified at his ability to always start a chase--he is the king of starting chases against survivors--but he's still vulnerable to being looped. Only after he has not been in a chase for a while can he cloak again.
Its a niche not filled right now. Right now, DBD is wildy inconsistent with its base power budget given to killers.
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@Orion said:
@George_Soros said:
@Orion said:
@George_Soros said:
I find it rather weak too. I experimented quite a few times with it, and I can't remember a single occasion when the killer did not make it to the hook with me, nor do I remember it ever causing me any problem when carrying a survivor who has it.
No, I don't mean it should grant a free escape any time, but I'd say a slight buff is in order.Why do you think it needs a buff? Mentioning that you've never escaped with it just makes it look like you think it should guarantee an escape.
No. "Free escape every time", you said, that's a 100%. I wouldn't want that, would be unbalanced obviously. I said I NEVER, not once managed to wiggle out because of Boil Over, not even when killer wasn't running Iron Grasp or Agitation. That's 0%. Maybe others have different opinions, I'm open to that, but from what I've seen, in its current state it's a rather useless perk unfortunately.
Possibly, for very inexperienced killers, the effect that prevents them from seeing nearby hook auras may be a problem, but I don't think that's a real issue over, say, 10 hours of gameplay.I ask you again, why do you think it needs a buff? We already have a "free escape" perk, it's called Decisive Strike. Boil Over can be useful under certain circumstances, but it's not supposed to guarantee a free escape by itself.
Conditionally inverting killer controls doesn't guarantee a free escape though.
@Acromio said:
Implementing your idea would mean giving SWF trololololol squadettes yet anothe tool to harass the killer.With only 4 perk slots, at some point with enough tools, people will have to pick and choose their poison. Its always been the same meta perks for so long. Every time I see new perks that are so weak, I always sigh at a wasted opportunity to add variety to the game.
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@Ogurcha said:
Yeah, dynamic generator completion is what what we need. 110 seconds though... it's too much. Not in term of balance - it's boring.If not generator times, then a scaling secondary objective that is no longer required as people become sacrificed could suffice. Something has to be done though to fix the binary snowballing nature of DBD.
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@Dreamnomad said:
The wraith doesn't need anything. He is in a pretty great place now. If you aren't performing well on him now then it is your fault, not the wraiths.The problem is that there is mathematically not enough time to kill two people before generators complete.
Finding someone at the start, chasing them for 2 or 3 different pallet loops, and doing it over again twice and bam all the generators are done at the high ranks. Wraith doesn't have the map pressure to delay much elsewhere in between. All wraith has going for him in his base kit is 0 terror radius, but killers like myers and pig pretty much do that but more without having to ring a bell and start a chase after survivors have run away a bit. Hillbilly moves faster and gets surprise chases as well.
The best you can do is pray that survivors don't find your ruin totem until its too late.
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@fakelove said:
@kingreaps here you go, maybe that's what happened to you
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kbzrt-6e0acTo be honest, I'd like it if the devs kept that trick in the game (though adjusting numbers if necessary).
Variety and different builds and playstyles are a good thing.
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I agree that leatherface needs speed. He lacks the design space that other killers have like map pressure or stealth.
He has an identity of being the killer you don't want to be caught in the open by, and he is the killer who carries you far to the basement. Movement speed would reinforce both aspects.
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I guess this will be the last thing I'll mention on the topic and I should have opened with it.
@ASpazNamedSteve said:
I always thought Wraith would be cool to have slightly increased movement speed on... feels like it suits his character and might make up for his otherwise weak chasing.Characters like wraith actually have unexplored design potential to make their stealth into something actually useful.
@DocOctober said:
That problem is mainly due to chases lasting too long, which should be fixed by increasing a Killer's base speed, but rather by getting rid of what allows Survivors to draw out chases for that long.Leatherface is stuck in a "king of the close range trope". Even if his chainsaw power is buffed, which I know is a popular suggestion here, its not going to fix his problems. Leatherface has structural issues.
Characters with no map pressure will always suffer from the generator rush problem. While underpowered, Trapper and hag have lignering presence with traps. Wraith, Myers, and Freddy have stealth. These things can be buffed to a point where they can apply the necessary pressure. Leatherface has neither reach nor subtlety nor mobility. He suffers from avoidance.
I've seen autohaven wreckers games where by the time leatherface manages to walk across the map in the time span of half a generator being done, everyone is hidden see since he can be seen across the map. Poor leatherface can't kick generators fast enough and only gets to start 3 or 4 chases at best on large maps before those exit gates power up.
A movement speed buff gives this close range guy a way to kick more gens, patrol more gens, on top of buffing his combat potential. He needs them all, or he will be subpar always.
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I guess this will be the last thing I'll mention on the topic and I should have opened with it.
@ASpazNamedSteve said:
I always thought Wraith would be cool to have slightly increased movement speed on... feels like it suits his character and might make up for his otherwise weak chasing.Characters like wraith though actually have unexplored design potential to make their stealth into something actually useful.
@DocOctober said:
That problem is mainly due to chases lasting too long, which should be fixed by increasing a Killer's base speed, but rather by getting rid of what allows Survivors to draw out chases for that long.Leatherface is stuck in a "king of the close range trope". Even if his chainsaw power is buffed, which I know is a popular suggestion here, its not going to fix his problems. Leatherface has structural issues.
Characters with no map pressure will always suffer from the generator rush problem. While underpowered, Trapper and hag have lignering presence with traps. Wraith, Myers, and Freddy have stealth. These things can be buffed to a point where they can apply the necessary pressure. Leatherface has neither reach nor subtlety nor mobility. He suffers from avoidance.
I've seen autohaven wreckers games where by the time leatherface manages to waddle across the map in the time span of half a generator being done, everyone is hidden see since he can be seen across the map. Poor leatherface can't kick generators fast enough and only gets to start 3 or 4 chases at best on large maps before those exit gates power up.
A movement speed buff gives this close range guy a way to kick more gens, patrol more gens, on top of buffing his combat potential. He needs them all, or he will be subpar always.
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@DocOctober said:
There's no reason to give him more than 115% base speed.Simply put, right now all non-top tier killers are suffering from being gen-rushed. This problem is especially acute on larger maps.
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@powerbats said:
@Doomsaki said:
@oke said:
Add a Narnia-like ability. Hag can teleport between lockers, with a cooldown (like 30-60s) to any of her teleporting abilities. Seriously, this would be pretty funny to play and to play against.I could easily see that working by pointing your screen at the locker you want to teleport to and its highlighted.
It'd have to be a distance thing as in you could only tp sof ar and then it'd go on cd.
After playing hag a lot more in the upper ranks, I'm surprised to say she's not that bad. What I've learned is that its better to let people go and go back to setting traps. People have said in post-game chat that the terror radius surprises are spooky with monitor and abuse and locker hiding would add to that. She's held back though on large maps. If she gets a locker teleport on long cooldown, it needs to be her occasional long range option. Some maps are so painful to traverse with her lower movement speed. No possible way to stop a gen-rush on those.
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I've seen suggestions where killers get to place the hex totem. (dull totems are still randomized)
Takes a lot of work out of trying to code proper hidden placement which will inevitably sometimes fail.
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@M2Fream said:
.....
Nerf billy and nurse considerably
Nerf huntress slightly
.....The question of how powerful killers need to be, should also be addressed.
I talked about how huge the gap is between wraith and billy for example. But is billy where other killers should be at? Or is billy too strong?
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@SaltyKiller said:
being able to hit a cluster of themThere's no way for the clown to capitalize on multiple targets with a cloud. He can still only down 1 at a time. SWF is still going to bully you and the others don't care about the cloud.
@SaltyKiller said:
and countering BS like Sprint Burst, and -again- the only Killer that can counter DS. Plus there's other things he can do like: down someone and think a flashlight rescuer is going to come by? Throw a tonic near the downed guy so that way the rescuer gets slowed down and (hopefully) can't flashlight save in time.Sometimes and only hopefully, but do these maybe situations equalize his far longer M1 chase time?
@SaltyKiller said:
Chasing a rescuer down in the basement? Throw a tonic at the stairs and go after them. After they get hit they will get slowed down by the tonic at the stairs and can allow you to maybe get another hit pretty quickly.Or throw an axe in melee range on the stairs and swing for a near instantdown.
@SaltyKiller said:
Not to mention that he can throw a tonic at a hook diver and interrupt the action (just like the Doctor) and can allow him to grab the guy going for the rescue.Or throw an axe and get a health state as well.
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@Runiver said:
@SaltyKiller said:
@Runiver said:
The only thing he could use, is some tools to improve his map pressure. His bottles are already great for the chases.
That applies to every Killer that isn't Billy or Nurse.
Pretty much.
Devs kinda forgot that aspect of the game since the release of the game it seems.I'd wager that the devs don't evaluate time invested vs reward when judging killer powers. Instead killers are designed by what intuitively feels overbearing or not to be chased down by.
That's why things like blinks/chainsaw/axes get a free pass on having so much free lunch and oomph because they are at least aimed and feel better to be killed by skill.
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@Jack11803 said:
How to make wraith super viable, guide by Jack. Buff ghost speed. Increase regular speed to what cloaked speed used to be. Instant top tier.If killer power reworks take too long, some kind of band-aid fix might do temporarily.
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@GhostEuant said:
Another point, the Nurse/Huntress/Billy’s drawbacks are all self-caused (poor aim/direction) that skill and experience will reduce. Hag, Trapper, and Wraith can all be sabotaged by an uncontrollable force (survivors) in comparison and these cannot be as improved by skill and experince. Trapper/Hag can always be countered by survivors with specific items (or perk) regardless of how well their traps are placed and Wraith needs to hope he can destealth before being lightburned.I’ve said in another thread that I am all for play and counter play options but it only works when everyone has equal number of play/counterplay options. And I think you’ve revealed that isn’t the case.
What I suspect is happening is that during the design process, killers are designed by what feels intuitively overbearing or not. An actual evaluation by how much time is invested or needed with a killer power is not being factored in at all. Aimed abilities seem to be given a pass because it feels better to be killed as a result of skill rather than binary mechanics with no room improvement.
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Clown is still chasing people all over the map even with bottles.
I don't understand why people are saying he's huntress tier. The time comparison in chase situations are way in favor of huntress. He's far below her. Direct damage > slows.
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Sloppy Butcher and Deja Vu still wouldn't be picked in comparison to other options.
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Beyond the big 3, nurse/huntress/hillbilly, doctor gets an honorable mention when compared to them. He's powerful but inconsistent. When its a small map like Gideon Meat plant, he can be considered on the same tier.
Doctor has some of the best time wasting and scouting in the game.
The pig only has time wasting + a pretty much nonexistent ambush lunge.
That sets up the framework of how much of a buff pig needs. More starting traps would give her the superior time wasting capability. A slightly more powerful lunge with give her something minor in the direct damage category. Doctor is still unique having scouting abilities instead.
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@M2Fream said:
leave doc and hag where they areI was going to do a section of hag vs nurse: setting up time to blink vs unlimited blinking at them.
But a long story short, the comparison is going to fall under the same conundrum of spending so much time setting up something counterable for even less a chance of a guaranteed hit.
I'd argue hag needs a moderate buff.
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@LittleWolf said:
I find this interesting and I agree. Do you have any Ideas on what they could do to these killers? I'm not saying that YOU are the one that needs to come up with changes, but I'm just wondering if you have any ideas.I don't have a comprehensive list but addressing some soft advantages that these killers should have, here are some random thoughts:
If M1 wraith is to be the superior scout over billy who can 1 shot ppl, wraith needs to be moving at like 200% to 250% (use imagination on the numbers) movement speed like this but slightly transparent:
It could have a cooldown so it couldn't be spammed as a chasing tool but a wraith needs to be THE patrolling scout to check all generators within 20 seconds every 35 seconds for example or through some other mechanic. Weak chase, but you are always afraid of his ability to cover ground to find and start a chase which is not the case right now.
Trapper's traps need to put people in the dying state at least, not wounded. All that time spent doing a setup needs to have a powerful effect especially since it can be disarmed with little consequence.
It'd be a good time to brainstorm what exactly they need to be the kings in utility and x-factors and cover the power gap between direct and indirect methods of killing.
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As a thought experiment, imagine if Huntress were like trapper.
She'd start with 1 axe and could carry one at a time.
Each locker would only have 1 axe. Addons would let her carry multiple.
She'd be almost stationary when throwing them.
Survivors with saboteur could sabotage lockers.
She would get her 115% movespeed but her lullaby would stay if we consider the directness of the hatchet as a damage dealing tool as something to be included in her power budget vs trapper's single trap doing damage in a generally less direct manner.
She'd have a bunch of useless addons that increase locker sabotage time but increase her windup time.
Survivors would be saying l2aim in the end-game screen still. -
@SaltyKiller said:
I admire the effort but I think the best way to "fix" the Trapper is much simpler:1: Trapper now starts with 2 traps instead of one.
2: Sabateur no longer destroys traps.
3: Traps will now insta-down and don't require an extremely rare add-on in order to do so. Because it's ridiculous when you don't have that add-on and they step into a trap they can get out of it in about 3 seconds.
Done.
Throw in some animation speed improvements and it would make him slightly competitive with the current viable killers (nurse/billy/huntress).
@Apex said:
@SaltyKiller I know but it's still boring to play him and so easy to verse him. Making the traps insta down survivors will make him boring to play and very very hard to play against.There is a very huge gap between the high-ranking viable billy/nurse/huntress and the rest of the killer crew. In terms of time investment, huntress can literally toss at melee range and swipe for an instant-down or at least gets free hits when a survivor has to vault or throw down a pallet from a chase. Trapper in comparison is spending over a minute finding and setting up traps for an investment that may not be triggered in the first place, may not catch people when it lands, and is still stuck chasing people through long loops with an M1 attack.
The devs need to start adjusting killer powers based on actual hard math numbers regarding time investment and actual opportunity cost instead of vague intuitive concepts of what might seem overbearing or not. Nurse, billy, and huntress kill with alarming speed, but those who don't have bizarre drawbacks and restrictions on top of being forced to M1 chase people.
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With every chapter release, there's a lot of experienced returning players. It'll take a while for the ranks to even things out again.
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Lets assume ideal play. In the video I showed though, the clown didn't have the luxury of an isolated shack. The fence jumps and 2 story brick building are also close. He also doesn't know which entrance the survivor is at and the survivor has the pallet to throw down anyways. Might be a shorter shack loop, but it'd be back to the buildings again.
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Not sure I'm convinced. As I mentioned before that play requires the survivor to go in the wrong direction.
The survivor in the video I showed demonstrated an ability to dodge and change directions in response to bottles in midair. You can see this on the vaults near the 2 story brick building. He keeps making the right play of running to another loop.
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@Runiver said:
As stated in the other thread, the clown you faced is terrible and is just trying to hit you with the bottle, which is dumb.From the video, I saw 3 situations where it could have been ended. 2 were missed swings and in the smaller 2-story brick building, he should have ran around that kitchen window.
But prior to that, the survivor presented no opportunity for a kill especially with that double stair basement loop. In a rank 1 game that's basically 3 or 4 generators completed or 5 in the case of this 3.5 minute mistake.
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@hMM said:
I'm a level 45 clown and i haven't had any issues with the bottles yet. Of course it might be because of i haven't even played on all maps. But if you want to throw in tiny spaces you can try to look down and charge the throw to maximum.To specify a bit more, what I'm referring to is the need to throw his gas canister ahead of the survivor. Throwing it at him doesn't have an effect in long loops because the gas has a delay on impact and takes time to spread.
Underhand lets you put it in front in a narrow indoor corridor. That would be the unique reason over simply aiming downward to have an underhand throw option.
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Here is an example of some of the elements I'm talking about with a video I saw from another streamer:
This video showcases how even with applied bottles, the clown faces a long chase. Many opportunities a huntress could have had guaranteed ranged hit on a window vault, pallet drop, or corridor. You can also see how much easier gas canisters are to dodge in midair as well only made harder for the killer to land with its arcing trajectory and delay once it impacts. Even worse, a big issue is that most of this chase was indoors and thus the clown's power couldn't be used.
[url]
https://youtu.be/Q5cbm83v2pE[/url]I'm surprised more people don't agree with my assessment that clown is generally a weaker huntress. Its a higher skill floor, but with less rewards for both landing on target and mastering use.
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I think these 2 videos highlight the current problem quite well:
Even with randoms wasting some time, a poor wraith doesn't stand a mathematical chance of getting enough hooks in to even pip:
[url]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJVQih5UwLs[/url]And then it gets worse with SWF:
[url]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP5CnUpComo[/url] -
@oke said:
Add a Narnia-like ability. Hag can teleport between lockers, with a cooldown (like 30-60s) to any of her teleporting abilities. Seriously, this would be pretty funny to play and to play against.I could easily see that working by pointing your screen at the locker you want to teleport to and its highlighted.
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The new cosmetic "dark souls" look on Wraith has my vote.
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The following clip shows how badly trapper is in need of some quality of life fixes.
47 seconds into this video: the poor trapper is now caught behind his own trap and even worse, he can't pick it up without setting the trap is in hand.
[url]
https://youtu.be/e6h_Y3p1NRM?t=47s[/url]Infinite carry capacity would go a long way into making him more convenient and avoid overly awkward situations like these. Bag addons can simply just affect the starting number of traps.
The ability to dead-hard over traps without consequence might also need to be looked at.
If he gets some QOL like the wraith did, Trapper would be in a much better spot.
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@Mister_Holdout said:
@Doomsaki said:
This isn't going to be popular, but I've found the most success using his gas clouds to hard camp and then running an end-game build (NOED+bloodwarden) and some 3-gen strat perks like overcharge and unnerving presence.Honestly, I really hope The Clown doesn't rely on end game builds. That would put a damper on things.
Regardless of overall strategy, keep in mind vs SWF that the gas cloud blurs vision. When faced with a camper, many survivors will try to bait a hit then go for the unhook. But with the cloud, I've gotten so many unhook grabs against survivors since they can't tell when I'm going to lunge.
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This isn't going to be popular, but I've found the most success using his gas clouds to hard camp and then running an end-game build (NOED+bloodwarden) and some 3-gen strat perks like overcharge and unnerving presence.
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@Soren said:
It's fun, I just don't see how that would buff her though. Sounds like a more of trouble for very poor results...Might be good for a new game mode, though. Something around hide and seek against Hag, you need to survive a timer and you can't run so you have to use lockers once in a while.
Think of it as a defensive tool like insidious is. Basement, 3 gen-strategy, add-on synergy, confusing people about which direction you went.
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Its the weekend.