Devil_hit11
Devil_hit11
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Survivor items are more like cheats to the game. Weakening an item like toolbox is like weakening cheat in the game. You can make a cheat so worthless that it never get used like Green keys, but It doesn't change base game. I don't think Hex:Ruin was used 80% of the games because of the item in the game. I think everyone just considered Old hex:ruin as default hard mode. It was almost like normal mode. It almost felt strange to be able disable hard mode. I feel like killer is going to be very stressful and it will feel very draining to play so much so that i'd be concerned about matchmaking more than the game. Survivor is going to feel too much like baby mode now and in some regard it kinda already did feel like that against 90% of the killer cast anyway. hopefully some creative remedy is made to the base game.
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@Coder said:
Otz is a great killer, but I've read people saying "oh, well, but how does Otz win without ruin then?". He also struggles without ruin, A LOT. This is the kind of game all killers will be facing from now on, since you can't tunnel (DS) to do your objectives faster and Adrenaline will still be a frustrating thing for killers.
Also, you can't expect every killer to be like Otz, that's the problem with DBD, for survivor you have to be able to hold M1, but as killer you have to be a Pro, 5k+ hours into the game, know all mind games, know all details of your killer, or else f*ck off and go play civilization, cuz you're bad.
I've seen him struggling a lot unless he faces potatoes, I've also seen him panicking in most trapper games "OMG... this is bad, this is bad..." until he gets a little lucky and snowballs, because you can do that with trapper, but not with other killers like pig, doc or clown...
Not having an early game mechanic with all pallets up in maps where loops are super safe (like McMillan or Autohaven) and 3 guys working on gens while you're chasing the first one gives survivors an insane head start.
Welcome to reality when playing non-viable killers. When you don't have tools to win or showcase skill expression, than you'll lose and get numb to it. Otz is playing doctor and doctor doesn't have tools to win so expect this to be the case for a lot of killers m1 killers when they face a decent team.
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Add a new perk for totems that removes the risk of using totem perks and make them secondary objectives to the survivor.
Example:
"If a lit totem is destroyed and another dull totem is remaining on the map, Apply the destroyed hex on that dull totem in 60/45/30 seconds, This effect persists until no dull totems remain in the trial."
I am sure people would think to use Hex:Ruin+Surveillance+New perk+Thrill of the hunt to make totems stronger, but realize that killer would be using like 4 perks slots just to make totem perks reliable useful. I mean, if your using all 4 perk slots, you'd think that perks would do something. People don't have to break the totems to win, but if they decide ignore their secondary objective, than killer should be able capitalize. I think it would also allow other totem perks to perhaps get used and maybe new totem perks could be invented like having new totem perk that grants undetectable status for entire match until broken would be an interesting addition to the game.
One of the fears I have with current change is that a lot of survivors will play in something called Auto pilot mode. They won't really bother to hit great skill checks because they're no longer requires to do so. So what if Great skill checks added more bonus progression like 5% but generator took longer like 100 seconds. In that way, if people play auto-pilot and don't bother to land greats, than it takes longer to do generators and if they do, they get rewarded about same time as it is now so it becomes more of an optional skill.
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@Almo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/976446#Comment_976446
Not true. We're talking about players with literally thousands of hours in the game. Some main Survivor, some Killer. Hell we even had a veteran Doc main try new Doc. :)
I find it interesting that 1000+ hours survivor mains were complaining about Hex:Ruin. If Hex:Ruin was so popular, did you guys think about perhaps buffing Rainbow map to perhaps disable totem perks instead of deciding to obliterate the only relevant killer totem perk? I can't even remember last time I've seen a survivor use actively use maps. What about improving perks that make landing Great skillchecks easier such as making stake out have more token charges, less time to charge or Removing Injured condition from "This is not happening perk". Heck even making detective hutch work at the start of the match or giving aura reading to small game perk could been viable solution for making hex:ruin less effective. in any case, what's done is done. Totem perks are never going to be viable anymore simply because they never make it to end game and all of your totem perks beyond noed are mid-game risks not worth taking. In any case, I think change somewhat misguided regarding this topic.
As for doctor, I wish shock therapy attack was more threatening in forcing survivors to "play" pallets by making survivors more afraid to loop pallets in risk of being unable to drop them at key times. The current Shock therapy feels like it only helps against unsafe pallets/pallet camping situations which normal killers can acquire hits in such situations. basically it helps you when your already in a winning position which is exactly when you don't need help in loops. I wish it was more base off being able sidestep/juke shock, but giving doctor near full movement so he doesn't lose much distance when charging it. If he lands it, he should get significantly reduced recovery time so he can confirm the hit where as missing shock would punish him. it would make him closer to different version of Huntress where there is more risk/reward aspect to it. Perhaps some tweaking would need occur to make it feel closer to skill shot though I wouldn't be able to determine what degree adjustment would be needed for that to be possible. The current versions of his shock therapy feel like you can just make another loop every time he charges the shock and it seemingly makes his chases longer rather than shorter which sounds objectively bad. In any case, I'm sure after PTB is over, he'll return to his tomb of slumber to collect dust.
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@not_Queen said:
Hey @underlord99!
You'll be happy to know that we already are looking to change the 3 second cooldown cause we know this is not working. The final change isn't yet approved so I cannot tell you what it is but when we have a confirmation, we'll communicate about it.
the biggest problem with current doc is that pause. its a bit long. For reference the old switching stance was 1 second according to wiki. it was pretty fast. The shock therapy delay is throwing off my muscle memory completely and I still feel like you lack base range to use shock therapy in most cases.
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There is no execuse for this Hex:Ruin change. Hex:Ruin helps balance the game time at red ranks. If anything, this perk should be a permanent effect for survivor/killers playing in red ranks(Rank 1 level). Landing great skillcheck isn't hard and it is basic skill in DBD. This "New player" joke is excuse. If you want to protect new players from the perk, than just disable the perk from green-rank to grey rank(rank 10-20). The biggest problem in DBD for killer at the moment is how the killers ability to apply map pressure(Earn hits/end chases quickly) has little influence for how fast the survivor can escape the trial through brute force. The crazy difference between Survivor and Killer perks is how most of the survivor perks are luxaries where as Killer perks are practically necessity. The perks that reward injuring or hooking survivors have complete trash numbers and over-time regression perks like Surge,PTGW and New Hex:ruin only help the killer when they already winning. If your passively able to regress generator as killer, than you've already won the match. why would anyone bother equipping perks when you've already won. This perk change just comes at really bad time and makes matters worse than they already are. Sadly speaking, I'm still going to use Ruin, but the game will go faster and it will suck for killer. This whole PTB will be one crazy failed experiment in the end that will be witnessed soon. Survivors are going to have fun being slugged on the floor I guess.
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@Peanits said:
I'd definitely suggest giving it a try first. My initial reaction is that remove the hex condition would make it far too strong. Combining it with Surveillance means you can see exactly which generators are being worked on at all times, and you can tell exactly when someone gets off the generator. If you aren't able to cleanse it, you wouldn't stand a chance.
Why can't the new version of Hex:ruin be another new hex perk in following new chapter? Instead of looking to why current Hex:Ruin is being used 80% of the games, the solution became to remove the perk altogether? The reason why Hex:Ruin is used 80% of the game is because generator times in term of skill-cap are overly simplified and too easy to complete. Some people regard it as "poor game design". Ruin was one few perks that increased skill-cap for playing survivor both from skill-check perceptive and map knowledge. It was seemingly the only reliable version of secondary objective for survivor. The only bad part about the perk was that if secondary objective got eliminated too quickly, than the game would be cakewalk for survivor at rank 1 level. The new version of Hex:Ruin is win-more perk. It's slightly stronger version of demo surge perk. In general, totem perks that are not oriented to early game aren't really worth anything because they're likely to get disabled before they make an impact to the match. Even if new Hex:ruin wasn't a totem perk effect, I'm sure survivor who are competent at using map tileset would be able to win. Looks like playing killer just got way more stressful...from start to finish.
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@Almo said:
The new Doc is not intended to be a nerf. If there is a problem with his power level after this update, we will adjust accordingly in a later patch.
The part that looks upsetting is the "So we've added a brief pause after using Shock Therapy before he can attack or use another ability.". This change already signifies that doctor will either be same or perhaps even weaker depending how long this is. It's only concerning part of the developer notes.
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I think we're going into the dark times for killers. at least for red rank killer. I think we're going have a lot of 5 generator chases as survivor now at high level. I hope it gets reverted. The entire ruin part of the post looks very green rank. It's like here I am thinking how could they improve game time for killer with this whole idea of secondary objective of ruin not disappearing instantly at the start by luck and than we get this post which makes Hex:ruin perhaps worst hex totem perk in the game. Maybe I'm missing something but it just feels strange. Maybe another perk will make hex totems more useful/reliable. This might be one of the worst updates that for killer in a really long time.
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Killer scoring system regarding Instant downs and 4 kill depips/draws could use an improvement. You just have to play Plague at red ranks to see faults in scoring system. Killers like Myers,Billy and Leatherface also get punished for using their power. I believe 4th category(Chaser) should award emblem points any time a survivor loses a health state and if they lose 2 health states, than you get rewarded twice. I do think the entire emblem system needs changes as a whole to better determine a single victor and the loser/draw in a match but If they do intended to keep emblem system as it is right now. it needs some slightly adjustments on killer side. Survivor ranking system seems in an ok spot where if your good as survivor, you'll be at the top and if your bad, you'll be placed lower. Perhaps we'll see changes when they do rank rewards.
Key and Mori: The principal of keys and mori are to shortcut the win condition of the game which is to land 3 hooks on a survivor(without slugging) and to complete 5 generator for survivor. Keys are overall not very fun to face because they steal the win from the killer even if the survivor played badly entire game. They are in a true sense a free escape for playing badly. Veteran players play a ton of the game and by this point, you can memorize common hatch spawn locations and because of this, Key is practically free escape for up to 3 survivors if 4 generator are done. I would say it is most single player-oriented mechanic in the game. In some regards, there isn't even counter-play to this mechanic, like if you get to trap door first with a key, the killer can't do much. I'd propose that opening hatch only works for key holder and they should need to pick-lock so that killer can prevent somewhat prevent a key hatch escape. As for Mori, they reduce another number of hook states for survivor to 2. I think mori should just be cool death animations that don't really affect gameplay. If your good at killer now, Using mori is like cheap instant win and it's probably most toxic item to play against. Half the time, survivors just disconnect if you use a hidden offering. It's not to say that survivors can't win against it if they're good, but the way you win with it is purely artificial cheese. I'd suggest making mori only work on 3rd hook for Ebony Mori and Ivory Mori. I think weakening mori and keys would be healthy change to the game as it would reduce toxic/dc behavior.
Dedicate servers & Latency: Ever since dedicate servers came out, I personally feel that the overall gameplay for survivor and killer can sometimes feel unstable. In such cases, it provides a negative gameplay experience. I feel like the servers provide unnecessary delay for both sides. I would like to think that these server could be improved but I personally think that peer to peer offered a far superior gameplay experience for the game. I know this opinion might be subjective but I wish that we could go back to peer to peer. It feels bad when you get hit through window vaults/pallet drop as survivor and playing with delay with killer kinda sucks. They're not always bad but sometimes it feels like it could be better.
This is just my personal opinion for what could be improved. Some of lesser used/useless perks could use some work but most of the time players won't use them in favor of superior options.
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Legion feels less enjoyable to play now because you have nothing to work for when using his power. I don't think Legion will ever be an amazing killer or anything but he's not fun to play now. If anything he feels more boring to play than before. STBL and Sloppy allowed him to stand out more because it allowed him to deter healing to get instant downs later in the match and faster attackspeed at quick rates than other killers. These advantages were not really gamebreaking, they just added fun factor to the killer. legion's fun factor is kinda dead. I don't think he'll receive any changes but I wish his power were somehow more interactive for the survivor and more rewarding for the killer to use. It feels a bit dull now. In his case, it is not about effectiveness but more about lack of uniqueness. Just lack of satisfaction. Just my 2 cents on it.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/931561#Comment_931561
Yes. I'm rank 1 killer and survivor for the past 18 months at least. Thanks.
Do you play survivor?
I can't believe people defend this kind of BS. "It's all he has" yea that's what a rework is for. To make him better, both for killer AND survivor. You act like he could never get some new tech.
Just the fact he can shock you and hit without losing speed OR needing to change stances just makes this issue even worse. HE DOES NOT NEED IT. Stop saying he does. It's like saying Legion needed a broken Deep Wounds timer from his launch.
Legion did need it, Legion is terrible now, he can't fulfill basic role of keeping everyone injured or punishing co-op actions. Legion is laughable killer now. Who knows, maybe he will find some hope in another universe. Doctor's niche is related to preventing vaulting and pallet droping. It is meant be skill-shot. How hard the skill-shot is to land is debatable. Slowing vaulting is clown and Freddy mechanic and as such, it belongs on them. I'd wait till PTB before freaking out about the changes.
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After watching the stream, I'm completely relieved about his changes. they're solid. You'll see when PTB comes out. Doctor will change for the better. I just hope he doesn't get changed negatively after.
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@Peanits said:
I think it's pretty silly to balance an entire game around one match, but let's go through a couple things:
- No down until ~1:10 in.
- Sees survivors on gens with BBQ, does not attempt to stop them.
- The game slowed way down after that when he started getting some pressure.
You can't expect them not to do generators when you give them no reason not to. That is their objective. They aren't going to stop just because you're putting portals down.
Anyway, let's say that generator times do go up to 90 seconds. That's a grand total of 50 seconds per game if they're done sequentially, or 20 seconds if they are efficient and work on separate generators. That's not really going to change anything. You'll still lose if you were going to lose.
I think this is bad way to look at things. Increasing generator time isn't suppose to turn losing games to winning games. It is suppose give more chances for killer to make mistakes. The current state of the game is that killer isn't allowed to make any mistakes and even if they play to the best of their ability with given events in a given game, they still lose. Say that a killer loses in 3 minutes, by generator being longer, he would now lose in 4 minutes, but sometimes this extra minute can be difference in turning the tides of a match. How many times have you had pop goes weasel and you walk to generator and as soon as you get there, the generator is completed? If you had those extra 10 seconds, you might have been able to pop generator and if generator isn't complete, it is still in play. Once it is done, it is done and there is nothing change the event.
As for Demogorgon, you guys messed up on his add-on, it's too bad he couldn't get more useful shred add-on's, perhaps an instant down would made him more fun to play, but I guess it is water under the bridge as they say. In some cases, the toolkit of the killer too weak such that no amount of skill from the player can change outcome of the match. It is just too poorly balanced at that point i suppose.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/922529#Comment_922529
What? Freddy is top tier dude. He can shut down loops without any chase perks. He can instantly teleport across the map. He is very hard to track for survivors. He has a lot of potential to slow the game. Freddy right now is one of the best killers in the game. If you think he wasn't good in a chase either you don't know how to play Freddy, or you are using dream pallets (which is basically you not knowing how to play Freddy).
Freddy success completely relies on survivor's skill now. Oni feels like shadow of his former self compare to PTB version of him. It is just very stressful to play most of the M1 killers. I love facing good players but not when odds are stacked against you too hard. I don't mind when they change stuff like prayer breads or extremely unfair add-on to face like old nurse add-on, but those recent changes are extreme anti-fun changes that punish the player for playing well. Nothing more to say regarding the topic.
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I mean I'm sad freddy got nerfed. Many loops in the game have little to no mindgame to them and often you are forced to break a lot of pallets, however by the time you actually begin to have gameplay with the killer, the game is over. Freddy wasn't even that great, he still needed chase perks to effective, it sucks that developers changed him because they somehow believed that some weird forever freddy build was Root cause of the problem. What those add-on allowed him to do is not need to slug constantly like other M1 killers to stand a chance at winning. Now he's in same boat as everyone else.
Oni suffered same faith, He had potential to make a lot of loops unsafe with his power and he could break a lot of safe pallets really quickly with his power and he could capitalize on survivors out of position. This would allow him to quickly create a lot of dead zones where he could capitalize on survivor who are out of position, it gave him opportunity to compete against better teams, but the developers went and slammed many changes to make it as hard as possible to snowball with him. I am not sure why but I saw a video on Ohtofu channel that questioned Oni power level on PTB against bad players so I guess they listen to him and he turned out in current state he is in.
It is quite sad that M1 killers are not allowed to have any possible chance to win against better teams and it seems they are changed based off phony statistics related to solo queue and potato survivor gameplay. If this continues to be the case, it will be a major downward spiral. I find the game in its most healthy state when killers are able to capitalize on survivors bad positioning and their game pressure means something towards rank system/outcome of the match. I think last few changes have been very anti-fun for killer and that is not exactly good for the game. I am not exactly opposed to them, but rather disappointed as I think they are step backwards in game health. It is stressful enough to play M1 killers, no need to make the situation worse.
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@yandere777 said:
As the title says, it really isn't needed for red ranks. Sure you'll have more time and in turn makes games more bearable but you can do fine without it.
Let's take both otz and tru3 into this. They both did a viability test. Tru3 had ruin and he went for specifically pipping or double pipping. That's precisely what he achieved but in a good portion of those games ruin went out relatively quickly.
In otz video he didn't use ruin and used a poor early game killer. He didn't depip once out of his 16 games and only used browns and yellows for addons. He didn't go for the 4k but he went for his personal idea of a win. In both sides neither one depipped once and they both felt like they "won" so this is why i feel ruin is not needed for highranks.
people have misconception about add-on rarity. I think in the games original conception, the developers wanted to make add-on scale on killers and survivor's power. that's why a lot of add-on for survivor were quite powerful like brand new parts, full instant heals, instant blinds. It was meant to be kinda instant win like. The same logic was suppose to be applied for killers, but over time, I would say direction of pink add-on are just brown-level useless add-on's, like just look at new killer, his pink add-on are pretty much worthless. The point being that rarity is not what should be considered, but functionality. If an add-on has good effect, than people will use it. Trapper bag are standard to every trapper load out regardless of their rarity because they're good. They allow him to trap more, just like Wraith's bell and Windstorm add-on allow wraith to be a better stealth killer. Add-on rarity was once representative of power, but i think that dev have given up for both sides because people got entitled with the game and just disconnect whenever they feel like they are on back end. I think the goal was to make both side maximize "fun" because it is fun to play powerful killer with strong add-on just like it was fun for survivor to have instant blind flashlights but grim reality about fun for one side equates for negativity for another side. I would say everyone has different tolerances and different expressive preferences for not fun, but in the end I think you need have quite large level of tolerance of losing in dbd to get by.
Hex:Ruin is needed in the game. The only way you will get by without Ruin is slugging. Slugging is largely a killer trying to plaster fix objective time. Killers with very short chase time or instant down are able to capitalize on slugging. To some, Slugging is a more potent version of map pressure for killer and while true, it can also be better described as a fake ebony mori where your just trying to skip a large portion of the game by skipping a bunch of hook phases. I never really enjoy it but sometimes it's only thing left for you to do as killer to win against certain teams and even then, victory isn't assured. Ruin isn't needed to 4k(Win as killer) but it is needed to win by definition of the emblem system.
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@Venom368 said:
I dig the suggestions other than the mending as a healing action. He feels much better to play now after the changes, but these changes would bring him close to the A-tier killers, i'd predict
He'd still suck. All m1 killers rely on survivor's mistakes. He's never going to go past anything above average. The only thing that would push him further than average is if they ever made deep wound a lethal mechanic where like him hitting 3 different people downs you or hitting you eventually down you. the problem of course has been that when he can down people in that fashion, they never really bothered to balance his vaulting mechanic, as such, his hits are somewhat unblockable, however there is small mindgame that you can try the next time you face legion which only works on wall-blocker pallets and vaults. It is to put pallet down, pretend to walk in one direction, but then walk into behind legion's vault and vault over. Since there is no limit to vaulting, legion will just revault and hit you anyway, but this mechanic is very fascinating because it means that legion has potential to be a juking-type killer if his vaulting power was more limited, only then would he have any chance for his power to be chasing power. A rework of that nature would be far more ambitious and risky.
The change proposed are run at mill changes that could basically get applied tomorrow and he'd just feel less crap to play.
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@Spooky13 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/899045#Comment_899045
The problem is killers not being able to apply pressure effectively. Killers with powers that aren't for map control aren't able to move around the map fast enough to get and keep survivors off gens. This is why killers like Nurse, Spirit, and Billy are top tier. They can control the map and flow of the game, like the power role should. Factor in the larger maps like Sanctum of Wrath and Mother's Dwelling and it is extremely difficult for M1 killers to apply pressure off of gens.
I have to agree with this comment. survivors have very few obligations that matter to them, beyond healing to regain their exhaust state, If you can't make the survivor do other actions, than you will lose very quickly as killer vs good survivors. Tru anti-heal build with Ghostface and Wraith achieve similar gameplay style where you hit someone, then follow them to a loop, if loop is too good, you'll break pallet and than just leave survivor. If survivor heals, they aren't on generators, but if they attempt to do generator, they will be slower at it and 0 TR will 1 shot survivors before they get to a loop. This achieves an artificial secondary objective where healing becomes a an important primary objective to map presence. Freddy and Pig achieve similar gameplay where pig slows the game down by putting bear traps that force survivor to remove them where as freddy applies sleep debuffs which force survivor to find teammates, fail skillcheck or go to clocks to create artificial secondary objective. Nurse and Spirit also create secondary objectives by the fact they're so powerful in a chase that people are forced to heal against them to survive longer. Not all of these are of equal strength but they all do fulfill same objective of creating relevant map presence.
@BunnyTheHutt said:
Title. It feels like every other game has a survivor team who just holds M1 and does all the gens in 5 mins. The only counter I found is being Gen Slow Freddy, but it's such a boring build IMO that I just loose all fun playing it. Tru3 on twitter even said he's done playing killer because of how bad it's gotten. I shouldn't have too play a boring build just too have a chance at red ranks.
Something needs too be done with gens too make killer actually fun again. You either run a super gen slow build and make them game lasts 10 years and become bored out of your mind, or play a fun build but loose after 5 mins. I don't know what exactly needs too be done, whether it's more gen time or nerf too toolboxes and Prove Thyself, but something needs too be done so red ranks don't feel so miserable.
It is no wonder a majority of killer use hex:ruin because that perk also creates secondary objective. It is just a shame that it is a little bit luck based for where it spawns and how quickly a survivor finds it. I feel like there should be a perk that if a totem is broken within first 2 minutes of a match, it will respawn in next minute on another totem(Corrupt intervention for Totem perks). It would make totem perks more consistent and give better game length. I don't think toolboxs or prove thyself really play that much of a part in generator's going too fast. It is more that survivor got good at optimizing their chases and since generator are too easy to do without ruin, it makes game harder for killers. As such, only few killers are competitive enough to match their chase times with their survivor's objective time. It is not that killer want to 4 kill all the time, it is more that you want have ability to win and a lot of killers don't really provide opportunity to win so your less likely to have fun playing them. I think killer is still fun to play though, you just need ignore bad matches and keep a clear open mind with killer.
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I think you misunderstand what statistics represent. A killrate for a killer is known as GLOBAL statistic. Global means that regardless of who the opponent is and regardless of skill level of the player, they achieve a certain killrate. In almost every video game, the hardest characters ALWAYS have the lower winrate because if a character is truly difficult to play, it means not everyone can play that character and since statistics measure a global average, those who can't play the killer bring down the average. Killrate do not measure effectiveness, they measure overall difficulty of a killer. you need micro statistics to measure effectiveness and in this game, you need statistics to measure "killer momentum" which is determined by how fast generator pop in comparison to how fast a killer gets hits on survivors/downs or how fast they hook. There are other factors to consider like toolboxs and keys escapes but that's jist of it.
Spirit is weird one, the thing is, spirit is harder to play than most killers, the problem is, she's also hard to face as survivor so even if spirit makes a lot of mistakes, odds are that survivor will make just as many mistakes against her, so it sort of cancels out in killers favor.
Nurse isn't bad. Nurse has recharge add-on that bring her back to old nurse. The omega blink isn't even gone, It's still mostly there, it just doesn't give extra charge speed to buff chain-blinks which was major problem with it in first iterations of it. The stuff they removed were add-on that remove counter-play of the chase for nurse which included charge time add-on, extra blinks, faster blink movement speed. are her add-ons in a good spot? well not exactly, a lot of them were pretty much useless but that can be said for almost every killer, so nothing changes there.
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@Peanits said:
We respond to as much as we can, but we aren't watching only the forums around the clock. Odds are if a post is disrespectful or outright insulting, it's not going to get a response. There's a fine line between constructive criticism and insults, and the latter is not how you have a conversation with another person.
As far as the basic attack change goes, it's the same as the Pig. It's to create consistency between powers so it's easier to understand what a basic attack is and what works with it. Previously, it was a bit of a mess. Something like Sloppy Butcher would work, but NOED would not. Both activated on basic attacks, but both were treated differently with Feral Frenzy. Not only is this less confusing for someone new to the game, but it also makes it much easier for us to balance.
As for mending, previously it was too easy to get stuck in an endless loop of mending (with mending times of up to 20 seconds). This left people mending most of the time which isn't exactly thrilling gameplay. There's no interaction between the killer and survivor there.
The movement speed, vault speed, and pin changes were all common requests.
Regardless, the changes have only been out for a little over a day at this point, so we'd like to see what kind of effect they have before making knee jerk reactions.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/890425#Comment_890425
We've also commented on similar threads about that exact same thing- it's not coming back because people use it to dodge lobbies. It was never intended to come back.
Legion's feral frenzy attack never worked with exposed effects, so why bother mentioning a mechanic that never worked for him in the first place. The loss of basic attacks to his power negatively impacts Legions power as legion is expected to use his power to land first hits on survivors. The pin status effects add-on are still underwhelming as their duration is too short to make an impact in a match.
Legion feels very unsatisfying to play as an M1 killer because his power does not amount to any additional rewards after everyone is injured. The sprint burst when a survivor is hit in combination with a very high stun time cripples his ability to punish people who are out of position. Normal TR makes him have no surprise factor when a survivor is near a loop and as such, he has trouble capitalizing on injured survivors as he turns into M1 killer with no power when survivors do not heal. Legion feel like a killer who was suppose to punish survivors who co-op generators and stick in close vicinity of each other but he simply lacks meaning threat level in his power to achieve that goal. Legion feels pretty miserable to play and I personally think he could use redesign but I don't really know what that would look like.
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@Atrushan88 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/892458#Comment_892458
3 gens may pop in a small amount of time if you have trouble with pressure but once those 3 gens pop the game slows down tremendously for those last 2. Unless again, you are having trouble pressuring. Most of the game is inbetween those 3 gens popped and the exit gates opening so 3 gens popping really fast doesn't make a whole lot of difference because you only have 2 on gens when you get your first hook, if they're a coordinated SWF. If not, likely no one is on gens because they want altruism points. It becomes significantly easier after your first hook.
At the rank 3-5 survivor rank level, yeah that's probably the case, but not at rank 1-2 level. there is massive difference between rank 1-2 and rank 3 to 5. It's like difference between grand master and Diamond/Platinum in other video games. Generators fly in about 4-5 minutes with map presence. If you fail to apply map presence, it can sometimes end in around 3 minutes. The rank 1 survivor is extremely optimized. When your rank 1 killer, you don't even aim for getting kills against these teams, you just aim to black pip. The changes to M1 killers actually quite laughable as if it is total disconnect. 80% of the killers are nowhere near equip to face that caliber of survivor. The term gen rushing is somewhat seen as negative, but it should not be. It should be more of term to say that survivor is playing properly.and is actively trying to win. It's just that it becomes extremely stressful to play killer when the players are very skilled at the game.
Just to give anecdote example, I had a game of Oni where the survivors all played super safe for 2/3 of the game by drooping every safe pallet and then when one of the survivors messed up on very end, I got my power, but the entire team decided to hide perfectly and I could not find anyone before my power ran out. It's like survivor dream to face a killer who is extremely loud with directional sound that you can loop into oblivion with no power. Playing survivor against Oni is fun, playing the killer is just headache. It's like PTB and live version of the game are completely different.
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It look really weird. Iridescent king no longer gives exhaust effect at tier 3, but instead, skill-checks move counter-clock wise? I don't know if that is going to do anything. I mean, the only skillchecks that i have ever not done great skill checks on are 4 clock skill-checks. When you play the game enough, you don't even need to think about skillchecks, you can "feel" them out and they just land on great skill checks. A person could be half asleep and probably hit good skill checks at 100% consistency due to the size. I feel it might better if it was like Hex:Lullaby 5 where you don't hear sound but who knows. People just don't really fail normal skill checks or snap out, they're just too big to really fail especially at the red rank level. They need to be Hex:Ruin size to have any impact. I guess we will see how useful that is in-game. No exhaust add-on makes madness less useful in a chase and he can no longer prevent dead hard, so yay for longer chase times.
Static blast sounds really cool name, but it seems to only increase madness and madness isn't really lethal by itself so, it just seems like an information tool when you want it.Personally, the only thing i have ever cared for doctor is being able to make reads/predictions with his shock therapy to prevent pallet drops or vaults and you obviously can't really do that if the range is too terrible and it takes too long.
I remain skeptical of the changes, Most killers either thrive on 1 shots,unpredictability, deception, mobility or something a chase and he kinda falls short not excelling at any of those metrics so I think he will always be regarded as rank 20 meme killer.
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@Kumakx said:
so if he sees injured survivor he can just use FF to have guaranteed (5.2m/s + faster vaults = it's hard not to hit a survivor) down on him? Is that what you want? Seems kinda strong on first look. Survivors would have to keep healing against him.
That's suppose to the point. Survivors are so used to being able to brute force killers because power is so non-exist that whatever negative you put on the survivor, people just objectively ignore it. Killers need some way to enforce map presence that do not involve using a cheese tactic known as slugging. It's large reason to why BVHR has been designing killers with powers that take advantage of health state mechanic. You can just look Plague,Oni, Spirit's designs to see big picture where many of killer powers are being designed to specifically punish survivors for attempting to ignore health states and trying to brute force killers by playing injured. It doesn't help that survivors are also playing with perks like Borrow time(Instant heal perk), DS(Instant heal perk on pick up), Dead hard, Iron will, Adrenaline etc. to escape goat the killer's pressure and minimize the risk of playing injured. The irony is that some player believe that it doesn't happen often and it's just some isolated incident and it is like they're playing different game of killer on daily basis. Legion could very well follow that design. It gives map presence a whole new meaning unless they're expecting everyone to do hillbilly strategies and just slug everyone at 5 generators with 1 shots.
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@PickCollins said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/868645#Comment_868645
I do admit Hag is one of the most galaxy brain killers in the game. From an outside perspective it's honestly very entertaining to watch Hag gameplay. The mindgames and strategy is admirable.
I'd take statistics with a little bit of grain of salt. Huntress has same kill-rate as Nurse and many players rate huntress very highly. Demogorgon shred is very similar to Huntress Hachets. The reason why those kill-rates are low is because those powers are hardest to master, so when you make a mistake with those killers, you get punished more severely than any other killer. I think there is also psychology factor being played here. Clown, Nurse, Huntress and Demogorgon are extremely 1vs1 oriented killers, so when survivors get destroyed in the chase, They end up playing the objective better, so more people end up escaping. Personally, I think kill-rates are higher than they should be because people don't try as hard as they could to push for a escape on weaker killers. If someone told you that Leatherface is a better killer then Nurse and Huntress, I think some people would think that your crazy, but that's kinda what the stats imply and it just doesn't feel like that in game. Don't let a number deceive you that you can't play better than what the average can play at. The game does leave room for skill and creativity to triumph over numbers.
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@Carlosylu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/866440#Comment_866440
I actually believe the time he spends reloading his bottles is what's keeping him down, if you could just keep walking normally whyle reloading and even hit someone breaking the reload he'd be fine
I think it's 107% walking speed when he throws bottle and amount of base bottles he starts with that keeps him down. If you do math, you need get 2 hits within 4 bottles, that's around 2 bottles per hit. It's not that realistic. With huntress, you get 5 chances for 2 hits. It would make more sense if he had 5 or 6 bottles so he doesn't run out in chases. Dedicate servers latency issues mess up his bottles as well, so hopefully that get fixed one day. Just my personal opinion on it.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/866163#Comment_866163
It's actually gone up, since people who previously did not play her started to play her (or came back to her) to try out the changes. Basically any time something is changed, the usage will go up, not down.
Interesting, I was always wondering whether Doctor or Clown was worst killer in the game. I guess wrong. Guessed that Hex:Ruin doctor really keeps him a float. Poor clown can't catch a break with generators at red ranks.
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@PigMainClaudette said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/861676#Comment_861676
Most people just can't play him properly from my experience. He can stop chases really easily with his gas and the Hindered status effect, but people don't know how to apply it properly. Or people have learnt how to deal with him.
Just look at Freddy 2.0 and his Blood Snares. He's able to stop a lot of chases and loops because of his ability, which applies the same penalty as the Clown's bottles, but in a smaller area.
Clown's power counters himself. When you throw bottle, Clown's movement speed decreases briefly weaken his own slow. Clown makes survivor's scream, so it essentially tells entire survivor team when he's in a chase making extremely easy to do generators. It's strange that they designed a killer whose power is essentially bloodlust on demand since slowing a survivor is the same thing as speeding up the killer and yet whenever you throw a bottle as clown, he cancels his own bloodlust. I'm not sure who balanced clown but he did meghead job. It doesn't help that he has only 4 bottles and reload is really slow. I think even if clown had 1 extra bottle and didn't get slowed down from throwing bottles, he would still have trouble being competitive killer. He's unrewarded killer to play and probably trends to being of the worse dbd killers despite looking good on paper. He's also plagued with dedicate server bugs now.
Freddy has no movement slowdown, no reload and he is quite deceptive of a killer. It's just a bit sad that they nerfed bloodlust on freddy as it gave him a better chance against rank 1 teams. Now he just gets looped too easily and get punished for using unreliable power. He's good killer but he's a bit overrated.
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@Peanits said:
I'd love to see something like that in the future and make it a regular thing. We would need to figure out what type of data you guys want to see, though. If we do it regularly, we couldn't give a ton of different stats each time (that would take way too much of the data team's time). It'd also be nice to narrow it down to a few categories that would appear every time so you can compare one month to the last.
I would say killer kill-rate, pick rate and most common perks are cool statistics to see.
For survivor, I think Map escape rate, most common perks used on survivor and Highest escape rate perks would be interesting. I wish there was a better way to measure survivor pip rate and Average duration survivor survives a trial vs X killer, but survivor win condition is really vague.
There are other statistics to look at like how often survivors restore health states per game, Average time Elapse per generator completion, Average Time elapse between X killer getting hits, Average Killer hook speed, Killer first kill-rate speed, though these type of statistics are more micro-oriented to see how well one side performs at a certain task at given rank. Statistics are a bit too difficult to make for DBD because there are too many variable so it is difficult to find any meaning from them.
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It was hard to write that distinction in my post. Potency = how strong something is. How dynamic a mechanic is =how much inconsistency/counter-play a mechanic has. Iridescent head Huntress is very powerful, but it is still dynamic killer. you either miss or hit hatchets. Legion's deep wound mechanic is either garbage because you have no lethality/weak.or strong because lethality is good enough to win. You can be strong and have counter-play, Weak and limit counter-play or strong and still limit counter-play. you always want first one, and don't want other two. Legion franks tape/cold studies fall between 2 and 3 and not really first one. Maybe legion could somehow be juked than he would fall closer to first one. Maybe if for example, if he vaults a pallet, he loses 80% feral frenzy gauge and he has to hit you in like 4 seconds or his power expires, this might allow you to window jukes or pallet jukes. Revaulting a pallet or window ends the power automatically than maybe franks mixtape could be default legion or something along those lines.
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@Maníaco_da_garrafa said:
I think Nemesis by itself is not a problem, but rather Nemesis + BoP + Stab wounds/frank's m. combo. Literally a low-iq bloodlust chase crutch.
The perks are pretty irrelevant. See, when they rework legion, they never "really" removed old legion from the game. Old legion is just an add-on. It's very same add-on that made Old legion hated. Let me elaborate further. Nurse has an ability called Blink and as everyone knows, Blink allows you to go through objects which devalues pallets, vaults and virtually every tileset in the game. Legion ability increases his movement speed and allows him to vault over pallets and windows, but the drawback of legion is that his ability was gated by deep wound mechanic, a mechanic specifically designed to "weaken" or remove lethality from his power(in his reworked state). Frank tape add lethality to his power and gives him the ability to ignore tilesets exactly how nurse ignores tile sets. Ironically enough, Nurse gets a pass when it comes to ignoring tilesets because her power has large skill-cieling where as Legion's power is look down upon because the skill-cap to achieve same result is considerably lower and therefore more consistent. It begs to question if mechanics such as these should exist and how potent should they be towards overall gameplay experience.
At the end of the day, all of the arguments boil down to being able to 1vs1 a killer because survivor bias players only have fun if they're able to consistently avoid being downed for the entire match. For some reason, The "1vs1" Survivor experience trumps the 1vs4 experience for killer. Old Legion's High dc rates comes from the 1vs1 survivor experience being miserable because regardless of how good the survivor was, Legion could always down them because of brute force anti-loop behavior his power exhibits. This is very same reason why people don't like bloodlust for killers because that mechanic through movement speed increase achieves similar unworthy downs that deep wound has for legion. At the same time, The killer has to eventually down you in a chase because if he can't down enough survivors in a chase before the generator are powered, you simply will never win as killer. I would say the last 2 years of dbd has truly evolved into being a looping simulator where survivors aren't afraid of the killer and the killer ability to provide any meaningful fear factor in a chase isn't really present so long as pallets exist on the map. as such, working on generators isn't scary or difficult, so in that sense, survivor's skill-cap for completing generators is about as skillful as Legion using Feral Frenzy to down survivors.
TL:DR Legion Franks Mixtape/Deep Wound mechanics isn't a fair gameplay mechanic, however the gameplay implications will not really change the outcome of match if the survivors apply the same tactics they use to beat every other killer(Stall chases, Complete generators & Unhook/heal to pip).
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/852572#Comment_852572
It's only extremely rare until people realize it's good, and then it's not. Take old Decisive Strike for example. Getting hit by it once wasn't a big deal, but when all four survivors started to run it because it was a free second chance every match, then it was a problem. We'd rather stay in front of problems like that and stop them from ever happening, not wait for everything to go wrong and then react.
I can explain why the perk won't really take off. If a pallet is safe, a killer will break the pallet because it's more efficient to break a pallet then it is to blood lust it. If the pallet is unsafe, than a killer who is confident will attempt to score a hit.
basically, whichever action takes less time is best decision to intake. Lift unsafe pallet doesn't impact the game because of technique that killers can do which is feinting. Feinting is when you pretend to go into a pallet stun range, then back out so that you avoid the stun. For this reason, you don't really need enduring as a perk unless you plan to lunge into every pallet hoping dedicate servers connects a hit. Rarely will you be able to lift safe pallet as most killer will either break it in the chase or break it after they hook a person to clean up the drop pallets.
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@DepressedClownMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/851503#Comment_851503
Adrenaline would be weird if you got the health state and had to wait the whole previous exhausted to sprint. While the perk is extremely strong, the community really likes it, and that would make the perk bad in my opinion.
The Legion FF change is just to adequate him to the rest of the killers
My understanding of special attacks was that a killer was a special attack if it had charge up and did not behave like lunge attack. So Leatherface Chainsaw, Billy Chainsaw, Demogorgon and Pig ambush attack are all special attacks because they are offensive actions(stuff that hurts the survivor) that have their own tailor behavior. Oni killer has 2 special attacks as well explicitly saying it's special attack. Huntress hatchets is another example of special attack.
Wraith's Uncloak attack, Myer EV3 special lunge attack, Nurses blink attack, Spirit's phase walk and Legion's Feral frenzy are all just normal lunge attacks with slight modifications. I don't want to list the differences between each one, but some of the type of attacks are mostly for blood point calculation. I'm pretty sure that this change was intentional nerf for legion. Ironically enough, A very controversial add-on known as Franks mixtape now has potential to be used with those oblivious status effect perks. I mean it always had potential to be used with insidious and Tinkerer but the strategy wasn't really winning strategy. I think if people had to choose between a world where legion has non-dynamic chases that are reliable downs and slow healing/faster attack speed, I am pretty sure people would take latter. There is more counter-play this time around in trying to make the legion whiff an attack and preventing him from getting a pallet stun, while also wasting the killer time if people try blood lust route, but it will still probably feel a bit iffy to play against.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/833204#Comment_833204
We're on it. It seems like the wrong version slipped in there. We'll get it fixed as soon as possible.
can you fix clown bottles while your at it. For some reason, sometimes when you hit a bottle on moving survivor. the survivor screams, but they don't get slowed. Ironically enough, stuff like aura reading bottles still apply their effect. It's super weird. It is like there is client latency issue or something.
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@Nobsyde said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/827849#Comment_827849
I'm half way through so I don't know if anything will change, but right now everything seems to be yes, I will use every pallet in the map, but my team mates can work on generators. There are two problems with this statement:
1- you are assuming that you as a survivor will win every read, which will be 100% based on sentiment - you are not reacting to anything a part from Spirit has stopped moving, I suppose she's phasing. Imagine if every loop blocked line of sight with the killer and the killer has no TR or red stain. How many times can you win the loop? And that's assuming that there actually are a lot of loops one next to the other, which is certainly not always the case.
2- at 23:00 of the video tru3 admits that this could only work in a very strong team. In other words, the only counter to any competent Spirit would be to have a strong team. That would be fair in a tournament scenario, not in a casual game, especially for solo survivors.
This being said, I'm one of the players that wishes swf teams to have their own queue, but even if this is not (yet?) the case two wrongs do not make a right.
If your not confident in your reads against any killer then you deserve to lose for playing badly at the chase game. You should need to play well to win against a skilled killer. Escaping should be more of a rare occurrence. Tru3 states this as a problem with the mindset. I'm not sure what separate queue is suppose to accomplish, In general all the killers should be able to handle their own regardless for who their opponent is. Obviously, this isn't exactly the case. part of the reason being is that a lot of the killer powers have near crippling drawbacks to their ability disabling them from creating strategic play style to winning a match. The few that have reliable power with least drawbacks have the greatest chance of winning a match(In my opinion).
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7RhjYo9bAE@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/827038#Comment_827038
2k is the target, not 1k. 1k on average would mean they're very weak and desperately need a buff.
I just hope you guys respectfully understand both sides of the conversation. Spirit has large kill rate because of her skill-cap. It is unfortunate but killers need strong powers with little drawback to have competitive chance to win. The game variables just aren't favorable. I still think that statistics should be 3 kills, 1 escape but that's just me. The average should lose to the killer, not beat the killer, however there are a lot of variables such as difficult of the killer and map.
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@FrenziedRoach said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/826774#Comment_826774
Doc isn't nearly the same tier as the nurse.
If they want to tone down how annoying he is, the most likely thing they'll hit is his static field in treatment mode because it's influence has the biggest impact on the game - especially when the doc is running a Terror Radius/Anti-skillcheck build.
Personally, I just hope they do a little QOL where hiding survivors in Tier 3 near the doc giggle maniacally to themselves. That would make my day.
It would be pretty scary if doctor got weakened. The thing with doctor madness is that the so "called" impossible skill check build isn't impossible. Just like Hex:Ruin, It raises skill-cap of generator. I mean generator have like widest skill-checker in the world. Doctor makes them slightly harder, but it's still pretty laughable skill-cap increase compare to Hex:Ruin. I find that madness doesn't do much in my experience because a lot of the afflictions are easy to ignore through skill and experience. For example doctor is one of 3(?) killers to be able to apply affliction "exhausted", however most of exhaust perks are used at the start of a chase. Lithe impairs you from window looping so you have to use it at the start. Balance landing is used for stagger reduction and sprint burst has to be used at the start of a chase. only dead hard get impacted by his add-on. The only affliction that does anything is red glow affliction. This requires wall blockers to be effective and you can achieve the same effect by hiding it when you turn corners on wall-blocker loops that have potential mind game. The static field build up add-on is sort of only way for doctor to pinpoint your exact position by increasing your madness up. I understand people have tried to use it for 3 generator strategies, but I feel like survivors mess up their generator priority if you 3 generator yourself. It is there fault if they get 3 generators and they fail to use their numerical advantage to finish their objective.
Madness as a concept and Hex:Ruin are honestly balanced for rank 5-20. It's skill-cap that used to work like 2 years ago. For rank 1 red survivors, I am almost never have anything less then silver in my objective category, Skill check need to be like Hex:Ruin+Lullaby 5 for any good survivor to really start messing up on them. i feel like you should have iridescent in 3 major categories in most games even if your team is bad. Maybe madness should be like the further you go into madness, the smaller skill checks become until they become like great skill-check size. By doing this, you could then remove snap-out to prevent abuse from static field add-on's. I had another silly idea that makes skill-check indicator move faster the further madness you are but I'm not sure how that would impact gameplay. In any case, most of doctor's game-play revolves around shocking at loops and using information correctly and if this got weaker in any possible margin then doctor changes would make him weaker.
If the spirit complaints are anything to go by, they better not be messing around with M1 killers or they could really messed up the game.
@SnakeSound222 said:
I think the way he plays is mostly fine, but he could do with some buffs. His shock has some pretty stupid drawbacks and his illusions could do some more things other than just stand around. I've had a list of changes for some time now that would bring Doc out of mid tier and up to the top 5.
- Increase shock therapy range by at least 25%. The current base range is ridiculously small to the point where you won't even want to use it because you'll be in M1 range. Adjust range add-ons to compensate for this buff if necessary.
- Increase movement while charging up the shock to at least 105% (yes, this is a different stat from movement speed while just walking in Treatment mode). He can lose a lot of distance from just trying to use his shocks. Currently he moves at 85% speed while charging up the shock, which is way too low.
- Remove the shock delay. This is really dumb, I really don't understand why it exists in its current state. Is it to give Survivors a good chance to dodge the shock?
- Significantly shorten or remove (if it wouldn't make him too strong) the transition between switching modes.
- Add the illusionary pallets to his base kit. They would spawn within an unlimited range of the Doctor every 20 seconds (like the current version of the Very Rare Order add-on). If the pallet spawns standing up, then the Survivor can drop them (similar to Freddy's Dream Pallets).
- Have the Order series of add-ons make the illusions perform some kind of action to make up for illusionary pallets becoming part of his base kit. The common version should just have the illusion run towards the Survivor and swing at them. The uncommon version should have the illusion lunge at the Survivor and will switch to Treatment mode when near a pallet or vault location. A new rare version (Order - Class III) would allow the illusion to kick a gen or pallet or open a locker and then start looking for the Survivor. The very rare/Iridescent King version would allow the illusion to perform any interaction and then start hunting down a Survivor to initiate a fake chase. There is a chance to have a second illusion appear close by to catch you off guard. The Iridescent King version would also let the illusion's attacks pretend to hurt you (would most likely activate at Madness 3). This part might sound a bit confusing, but you would look and act like you're injured from your perspective. You would look completely normal from the Doctor's perspective. After the effect wears off, there would be an increased amount of electricity on the sides of the screen to tell you that everything was fake. If you happened to use something like Dead Hard and you got hit or the effect wore off right after, the image of Doctor's face would appear as you get pulled back to your previous position to tell you that it wasn't a hitbox or internet issue and that you were dealing with an illusion. You can have Survivors waste their DH on an illusion. They could also end up wasting a pallet or running for a "hook save" based on what your illusion was doing.
- This one is just personal (I'm not even sure if it's true), but the illusions shouldn't spawn on a different floor than the Survivor they're tracking on multi-floored maps like The Game. It's really annoying to check one floor because of the illusion and then find nothing because the Survivor was actually on the other floor.
- New Ultra Rare add-on: Dr. Otto Stamper’s Files. The static field becomes map wide and shock therapy range is increased by 50% but the charge time is slightly increased (10%). This will not stack with the Order add-ons (they increase madness gained from the static field).
I think number 1 and number 2 is kinda enough for doctor to be pretty scary to face. The rest of the stuff is sort of overkill and not really needed. Doctor has good soundbites to make the game feel like horror game, but he himself isn't very strong. Who knows if that will ever change.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/818226#Comment_818226
Coincidentally, she also happens to average three kills per game if not higher (with the target being two kills two escape). Fun is definitely a factor, but not the only thing that's considered. A game is meant to be fun though, advocating for not making the game fun is a hard sell.
Nobody likes losing, I'm pretty sure there is correlation between winning a match and fun. Winning is fun. Losing is not. Spirit is difficult to beat, therefore she wins a lot so survivors don't have fun playing against her because they lose against her more than other killers. Those are global statistics. they are the average. the average player isn't exactly the best player. They are... just average. for that reason, I think 2 kills 2 escapes is good sign of under performing killer because the average player can beat them. It means better player can beat the killer consistently. I think it should aim for 3 kills and 1 escape and I think escaping killer should be difficult challenge to overcome. She is one of two killers that makes the game feel like horror game. Tracking, prediction and Intuition are skills. I think the coin-flip thing is somewhat of exaggeration for her. her power has a cooldown and she is 110% movement speed killer. she is a fair killer at the end of the day. maybe one day other killers will share her statistics.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/815136#Comment_815136
If you'd like, we can hop in a custom game and you can show me how you'd counter tunneling or camping without Decisive Strike or Borrowed Time. I'm willing to be proven wrong if you're up for it.
The point is that bringing a perk to counter a general behaviour that you can face regardless of who you're playing against is okay (e.g. Camping, any killer can camp). Bringing a perk to counter one specific thing is not. You cannot expect everyone to run a perk to counter something specific unless they know in advance what they're facing.
Iron will isn't a counter to spirit, It's perk that improves your chances at beating spirit by giving you a second health state that is equivalent to first health state. The way you counter spirit is juking, however juking will do you no good if your loud, that is why people bring Iron will. It's like urban evasion vs hag. You can crouch without urban evasion to avoid hag traps to perform safe hook rescue, but it's a lot worse without the perk. You can beat spirit without the perks, but the margin for error is more slim.
Spirit over-performs because many survivors simply disconnect against spirit. It's running meme in dbd that if you don't like to face something, you can just disconnect and there's literally no punishment for it. I think survivor mains call this "dc-tech" or sometimes they refer to it as "Dc=Countered". When I play Solo survivor, the biggest problem is disconnects. Any killer can win a 3vs1. It's like disconnects are used as weapons against killers. Imagine a killer disconnecting every time their Hex:Ruin disappears or every time they get a bad map like Haddonfield. Disconnects are incredible entitlement in this game.
In regards to proxy camping and tunneling, those tactics are used because the game doesn't reward "fair play". It has greater incentive for opposite. There are perks that give incentive for hooking multiple people and going for chases, but there isn't much reason to use them if they don't produce results. player choose tactic that give them highest probability to win. That's just how video gaming works.
That's the end of my rant.
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@Peanits said:
He was always intended to lose bloodlust when placing snares, like all other killer powers. Accumulating bloodlust on top of slowing the survivors is excessive and doesn't require any skill.
Was he? It's been like 2 months since rework and he always had it. Ironic on how bloodlust is frown upon so much yet for some reason still exists in the game.
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@not_Queef said:
This playstyle is so braindead and tedious to play against.
Really hoping for some devastating nerfs to dissuade people from playing like this.
Don't worry, It will be like spirit, "Hes Overperforming", then they wonder why the face same killer every game. If only more killers had viability.
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I like the idea. I hope one day legion becomes viable killer instead of his mediocre self.
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@THEghostface said:
This anti-heal build, which Tru3 is spreading about, is getting out of hand and is a poor impression for any new Ghost Face players. Sure, the build is handy for a versatile stealth killer like him, but thinking that his stalk mechanic is useless is laughable. You may as well play as dead rabbit Myers if you're using this build. As Ghost Face, marking survivors at the right given opportunity, applies more pressure than going about loudly with nurses calling and sloppy butcher, really boring gameplay that plenty of killers use, but Ghost Face is an exception because he can have no terror radius. Stalking can lead to map pressure if you use it correctly, unlike Tru3, who proceeds to call it bad while displaying poor usage of the ability, hence the build he calls "optimal". From what I've seen from Ghost Face mains, no one really tries when they stalk survivors, and that's pretty disappointing (PS4). Ghost Face carries the potential to add pressure by gaining fast downs and hooks, but the ever growing conditioning of playing a simple m1 killer with no terror radius instead brings people away from that potential. Play how you want, but I really don't want to see players using this great killer as if he's another killer, and not his own.
Ghostface stalk got a hotfix/nerf and if you use him as instant down killer, he's probably worst instant down killer in the entire game, probably worse then bubba against good players. That anti-heal build is best way to play all stealth killers, not just Ghostface. It's more of play-style rather than the build, but the perks maximize the play style. Ghostface when used this way uses his power as an information tool. He's 115% ms killer that can attack instantly out of stealth. The only drawback to the power is cooldown. Other stealth killers have too many drawbacks to be effective at stealth. Wraith needs silent bell and all-seeing blood to be as good as Ghostface, however he still needs to channel the bell to m1. you can use add-on to speed the bell but then you have no information tool. Myers has dead rabbit and Vanity mirror but vanity reduces your movement speed to 110% so nobody uses it. Pig has Amanda letter but her crouching is like really bad movement speed and it cripples her other power so it's pointless.
I've been playing ghostface like that since day 1 because I find almost all of his stalking add-on to be mostly garbage and I've always hated how hitting a survivor resets stalk meter. you can use his stalk against bad survivors, but if they're bad, you would won without using his power in the first place. Tru3 just looks for results and that play style/build is what gives him most results.
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@miniplayz01 said:
Tofu also uploaded a video on this
Ohtofu video was more brutal and to the point. His video made me realize just how much he hates spirit. He has real trouble finding out when spirit phases walks. They should take her shards and light her up like christmas tree than people will always know when she is phase walking. it would be pretty funny. Both of them state that there is no reliable way to counter spirit's power. The reason being is that her power is pure and complete stealth. There used to be another killer who also had perfect stealth and that killer was Freddy. He got reworked to remove that stealth. I miss his Old pill bottle add-on. It was a fun add-on to use. The whole point of stealth is to be unpredictable. you can't really counter perfect stealth. you can only make it less effective. As soon you can physically see her or hear her, than it is no longer perfect stealth. It becomes partial stealth which is little bit like what wraith has as power. The irony behind her power is that she also turns the survivors invisible, but just because you can't see a survivor doesn't mean you don't know where they are. Sound and Visual cues are valuable assets to being an effective spirit. He also complained about the add-on's. It is interesting perceptive though I'm not sure what you can do against perfect stealth to make it less frustrating for those players besides removing it. Spirit wouldn't be the same character anymore without her perfect stealth. I don't think she's that bad to face but that's just my opinion. Just like every opinion, take it with grain of salt.
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I've always been pretty competitive too, I like winning in games. I've been red rank in both sides. I think that you should receive a rank up if you escape as survivor and if the killer 3-4 kills. The emblem system should only apply if you end up losing on either side and all it should ever decide is whether you deserve to stay in same rank or derank. The higher rank, the stricter the requirements should be. In every competitive game, There always only ever be one winner but for some reason, DBD allows both sides to be winners/Losers and that doesn't make much sense. Maybe one day they'll end up fixing it so that Winning and Losing means something and rank gives some minor reward.
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@ScottJund said:
OP didn't word it very well but he's basically talking about how strong the speed burst is from a hit and how many survivors will waste a lot of their burst not committing to a direction. That's why you'll notice good survivors be so greedy at pallets at full health - they control their speed burst and gain massive distance so much so they can be chased running directly in a straight line without a single window or pallet and still last a minute.
I'm glad more people don't realize how instantly strong the speed burst and running in a straight line is.
honestly I would wager a group that experimented playing the game against M1 killers without using a single pallet or window could still win if they all had room to run in a perfect line for a long time.
Completely agree. Health states in general and exhaustion perks are just too good at stalling killers. Lucky that not every map is the size of red forest.
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@ScottJund said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/792577#Comment_792577
I disgaree. It actually makes it a real mind game. A mindgame implies the other side has equal chance to counterplay you, but you outsmart them.
For example, if a change was made so that you could see grass being rustled by Spirit as she ran through it, it would open up actual counterplay, while still keeping Spirit in the driver seat. Not only would the survivor have to look for the subtle movement, they would have commit to a decision based on the little information they have.
Hell, it could even make the Spirit able to use terrain as a mindgame as well. Intentionally run over a piece of grass, double back to flat land and go the other way. That's what I'm talking about - that's actual mind game stuff.
A mind game assumes that both player have lack of information. Spirit can't see the survivor and the survivor doesn't know where spirit is. In fact, that is where red glow mind games come from. Red glow gives away the position of the killer but if there is a wall and you can't see killer. You can hide your red glow, a survivor will need guess which direction you went. Unfortunately, A lot of the loops in the game can be played "Safely", for example at the shack, when approaching opposite entrance of the pallet spawn, you can play a red glow mindgame at the window, but the shack is also long wall and therefore can be played safely. The same can be said for Jungle gyms and many other tile sets. It is nice to force early pallet drops, however they do not net you the win. If the survivors are optimal at the objective, there may not be many pallets left, however the match is over and you have lost.
The beauty behind Spirit is that even when majority of the pallets are dropped, The majority pallet are still unsafe against spirit's power. Another common response to a killer trying to mind game a loop is running away from current loop in certain instances, however spirit can track scratch marks and she is a lot faster at moving then the survivor is. The end result is that a survivor is forced to make reads and inquire risk at some point. If the survivor receives adequate and enough information then they will be able to make the correct decision every time. If it's too little information than it won't make a difference. I understand that she's difficult to play against and beat, but I think all the killer should be difficult to beat. Being difficult to beat seems to have correlation between having fun or not. I think the whole point of the game is to conquest the challenge.
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@ScottJund said:
Its the same thing as Legion. Everyone talked about the old Legion being "overpowered" and people debated it saying he was "underpowered." I feel like people are missing the true reason for complaints against things like old Legion and current Spirit: they're not interactive experiences between both sides.
The whole core gameplay loop (heh) of DBD is the interaction between the Killer and the Survivors, and the Survivors and other Survivors.
The Old Legion, for example, removed that. There was no counterplay. No matter what, you were going to go down (eventually) even if it took a while. At that point, the interactive multiplayer component was removed - you were just basically playing "The Legion Cutscene."
Spirit is some of the same issue, though not as grim. There is no feedback from the Survivor side when going against Spirit. When she's using her power, the Survivor isn't reacting to anything - they're choosing an action and just hoping that was the correct one. That is not an interactive multiplayer experience. That's a single player game. The Survivors might as well be bots that are preprogrammed to choose an action.
And that's why Survivors hate Spirit. Their sense of choice isn't reactionary - its just a random choice they make and they hope they are correct. You cannot react to the Spirit while she's phasing until she is very close to you - at which point you will finally be able to hear her footsteps and bump into her. However, if she's that close to you you're just going to get hit and she can also bump into YOU, so that is irrelevant. That is the only time you can reliably react to what she is doing. No, you can't reliably study her "crystals" that require you to be in her face, not moving, and also requires her to not have a skin that obfuscates them.
Even though Nurse is stronger, she's still less annoying to go against. That's why I hate when people keep boiling down the argument to "Spirit is overpowered, underpowered, etc." That's not what Survivors are complaining about. You can at least see the Nurse blinking at you and react to it with a locker rushed entry, a Dead Hard, etc. While the Nurse still has way more control in the chase, at least you can literally tell what she is doing and make a choice based on that.
Its not even about lack of counterplay. Its just...the complete lack of "play" entirely. When a Spirit starts phasing near you, you can choose an option based on your surroundings and just hope it works. That's not rewarding. Even if you choose "correctly" and waste her power for 10 seconds, you don't feel good about it. You just guessed correctly, and then you'll have to guess again in 10 seconds. Meanwhile, the Spirit can react to your breathing sounds, your injured sounds, your scratch marks, your collision, the grass you shift when walking through it, etc. The Survivor can react to none of that because they can't see or hear any of that until she is so close they're hit anyway.
So how to you fix it?
You have to make her somewhat noticeable while phasing, and then buff the frequency at which she can use her new weaker phase. Whether they returned directional audio to her sound (and tied Prayer Beads to the current non-directional sound), or maybe greatly amplified her footsteps, or made her shuffle grass as she walked through it - anything. Survivors need some even extremely vague indicator of where the Spirit is, and in turn the Spirit needs to be able to use this power far more frequently. It would be a nerf and a buff, cancelling each other out while giving her some semblance of counterplay, even if it is still sided towards the killer as it should be.
Anyway that's all I got.
tl;dr stop discussing whether or not Spirit is overpowered and discuss whether or not both sides can react to each other in this multiplayer game.
Giving the survivor any information about Spirit's power completely removes the mindgame(Guessing part) of her power. A common complaint for spirit is that spirit has "no mindgame" Implying that there is absolutely nothing you can do against her power and yet, not every chase with spirit has same length. Another irony is how some survivor say "Standing still is not mind game" and yet I've seen some players suggest that spirit should have no collision such that. Standing still for survivor becomes a mind game. you can move slightly outward to a loop such that she fails to collide with you. If spirit became an easy to read killer, she's 110% ms killer with easy to outplay power. She would be doomed.
As for the buff, You can already reduce her cooldown of her power through add-on's. I believe a green add-on and some yellow add-on reduces it. Spirit used to have directional phasing in PTB, and the power was pretty bad, so no amount of cooldown reduction helps if the power isn't effective.
The way I see spirits power is that majority of the loops are extremely safe/survivor sided, like if there was scale of 1-10, there are loops that are like 6/10, 8/10, 9/10 and spirit changes all these imbalance loops into a 5/10. I rather live in a world where every loop is 5/10 50-50 then every loop extremely safe for good players. I know it's the usual survivor expectation to be able to stall a killer nearly indefinitely but I think killer who have powers that aid them in a chase should be able to end chases quicker in a fair way. I do wish her tracking ability was slightly harder to increase her skill-ceiling, but she is in good spot in majority of the cases.
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I don't think you need direct voice chat to be coordinate in this game. I think just simple notifications like knowing which person is getting chased (obsession mechanic), knowing that someone is going for a unhook and knowing where you should loop the killer(away from teammate) is all you really need to be successful at solo. Finding teammate for healing can also be useful in some instances.Technically Dwight Perk Bond accomplishes all of these goals, however a lot of players don't want to really use a perk slot to play to the level of SWF and then they blame that their solo experience is miserable because they're trying to solo carry in a game that somewhat requires teamwork.
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@Micheal_Myers said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/788619#Comment_788619
"Even when I'm playing Michael I don't care if survivors use those perks."
You will be when you get spotted before you even see a survivor.
Just let that sink in..
Myers is said to be one of the killers on the list of add-on reworks and I completely agree with it. Myers biggest issue is that he spends like the first minutes of the game being a crippled M1 killer. If you ask very good players, many player will say that the first minutes of the game are often most important and Myers applies almost no map pressure in those first minutes. Currently, there's like no reason to stay in T1 Myers unless your playing scratch mirror Lery. The other irony behind Myers is that he's suppose to become "More" powerful as he goes from T1->T2->T3 but this isn't expressed very well. I think his Tiers should be play-styles and add-on should encourage you to stay in a particular tier to fit that playstyle. For example, T1 should be like full stealth myers with 115% movement, No red glow but bad lunge range. He can keep current T1 add-on that increase lunge range and give like 32 meter aura reading and maybe there are some other bonuses that he could use in T1 like Nurse calling add-on that nurse has could be benefit a full stealth killer play-style. The add-on in Tier 2 should be like normal killer, but better statistics that other killers don't have access to. I can see a lot of creativity here like bigger lunge range add-on, faster pallet breaking add-on, faster vaulting+Faster pickups add-on, Lower terror radius(Dead Rabbit). Just like Tier 1, there isn't much reason to stay in T2, It's almost like "get me out of this tier" and hence majority Myers players use J.Myers+Memorial flower as their add-on of choice to spam Tier 3. Tier 3 is suppose to be like God mode, however when you use Tier 3 a lot, most players will just spam very safe pallet drops because they'll be scared of his extend lunge+Instant down+potential forced Mori, So the common strategy is to 99% your T3 to pop it in middle of a chase, but other killers instant down killers such as Billy are way more efficient at punishing bad positioning than Myers is.
In any case, Myers is great licensed killer and I like his concept, but I think he's highly overrated. Hopefully when they improve Myers add-on's, The spine chill nerfs won't really matter.