Devil_hit11
Devil_hit11
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@Archol123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3269791#Comment_3269791
Most killers have some form of tell... Trapper has an animation (he can cancel to try and make the survivor leave the tile preemptively), Wraith can fake his uncloak to make the survivor drop the pallet preemptively, Nurse has an indication when she is starting her blink, Huntress lifts the hatchet before throwing and so on... Most of them have some form of an animation that indicates they are using their power or at least starting to use it... Does not necessarily mean they'll go through... But old spirit and old deathslinger just did not have those things... And I think that's also somewhat sad from a killer point of view... Because when you're not really giving information to the survivor to trick him then you're not deceiving them in a skillfull way... And that's probably the most fun stuff: seeing your tricks work... But when you just stood still as old spirit and pretended to phase and the survivor had no clue and could only guess and vaulted into you and got grabbed you didn't really do anything to deserve that outcome... You did nothing but stand still... that's like the stupidest thing in any game... getting a good result despite not doing anything for it... And that's why I am glad it got changed. On a sidenote.. When you have good addons on a spirit you're not really deceiving them anyway... You move so fast it does not really matter and can just catch them regardless when you know what you're doing.. But at least the survivor gets something he can work with and potentially act accordingly... Does not mean it will work out...
Huntress lifts the hatchet before throwing
That is because your expected to wiggle against huntress and she is expected to hit survivors that are wiggling because of her bigger hatchet hitboxs at middle-to long ranges.
But old spirit and old deathslinger just did not have those things
Slinger is not expected to deal with wiggling, he is expected to do flick shots and your expected as survivor to flick dodges(last second dodges) in his original design. Spirit is obviously stealth killer in chase. gaining information defeats purpose of stealth. Different killers, Different mechanics, Different balance.
Most killers have some form of tell
that is why most killer are not strong as a result of failure to induce mindgames. Too easy to loop. too safe powers.
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@Blue_Archer33 said:
PREDITORIAL AWARENESS:
Every good predator can predict what their prey thinks. Remind the prey of who does the hunting.
When a survivor would have revealed the Killer's aura, they instead scream to reveal their location. The Killer becomes Undetectable for 10 seconds. This perk has a cooldown of 45 seconds.
here's the problem. if the survivor has no aura reading, then this perk cannot trigger because survivor never screams so you never get undetectable.
if you want a perk that counters aura-reading on the killer, it is a hex perk. the perk is called hex:third seal. It applies blindness status effect. Blindness currently disables all aura-reading capacity.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3269613#Comment_3269613
You cannot pin point her down to an exact position when you're on the complete other side of the loop dude... You can know that she is somewhere back there, but it is not that on point. You can somewhat estimate the position but at that distance you cannot know exactly where she is...
I really don't like that you're always putting words in my mouth... I don't want a fool proof system that always works, I just want a system where a player can use their skill to change the outcome of the situation if they reacted correctly... And a shot that does not provide that possibility at all is just not good game design in my opinion... I play both sides equally so once again what is with this assumption without any basis here?
The speed of slingers shot did not get changed at all... After he pulled up his gun you still don't know when he will shoot... You only get that much of a warning... Even today you cannot reaction dodge slingers shot at close distance... You really need to inform yourself better since your understanding of the game its mechanics and the numbers behind it is just atrociously bad...
Also trying to go over an argument just by stating that it would be the logic of a certain group of players while neglecting that most people play both roles seems like a really high IQ move... An argument does not loose its worth or gain any just because the person that said it changes... You need to still go over it and try to find flaws in the logic or mistakes in the numbers behind it... But you do you buddy... And if you don't people will mostly just ignore you when you don't provide proper counter arguments... Which works fine by me dude.
I just want a system where a player can use their skill to change the outcome of the situation if they reacted correctly
Let me repharse my position. I want a system where the a player can use their skill to change the outcome of the situation if they predict correctly their opponent play. When I play killer, I make the plays and you need figure them out. You should not know my play in advance before I make the play, that is your job to figure it out.
The knight is perfect representation of showcasing everything the killer does before hand to the survivor. No guess work required from survivor part. So don't worry, dev already took your side even though I disagree with it.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3269168#Comment_3269168
Agreed but apparently words have a different meaning for the guy...
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3269001#Comment_3269001
"Mindgame in the context of DBD is not deception. We are not playing town of salem or original name, Mafia. Its not game about deceiving. In the context of dbd, when player refer to a mindgame, its related to predicting what the opponent will do before they do it with minimal/no information."
No it is not... You give someone a certain information and assume they will react accordingly to it base upon that you do the opposite of what you made them think is gonna happen... That's exactly what a mindgame is in DBD.
"I also do not understand all these scottjund because.... these scottjund videos are textbook example of... how not play vs spirit. Man, I hate the whole balance around -bad- survivor players mentality. This whole thing he is talking about does not work vs good survivors..... you hear directional where spirit is phasing. in other words. you know exactly her precise location every second. that is why she has no dust clouds because who needs dust clouds with directional audio cue, the audio cue is better then seeing the killer with wall-hacks. you slide pallets on reaction. there is no mindgames. I went to search old video to showcase this. tru3 showcases this on ptb."
How is it balancing around bad survivors... A good or a bad survivor had to guess in the exact same way and the skill did not matter as they could not use their skill to process the given information since ther was just no information given at all... Also he was saying that when staying in the way he described the difference was so narrow that you could not necessarily pin point her exactly ...
First of all this is probably one of the most clickbait titles ever... Spirit is not dead at high level... Having to break two pallets a map does not kill spirit... And I love the assumption of balancing around bad players when this spirit is constantly loosing him and not being able to keep track of where he actually goes...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIiGws6MTwk
This is a far better example of spirit performing in high level... We a team of comp players playing against a comp spirit and oh my god who would have thought spirit is still able to perform really well... The spirit is one of the best spirit players in comp and the survivors are team Eternal... The best comp team at the moment... The whole point is even if you know where the spirit is it does not really matter as she moves so fast during her power that she can catch you regardless of you knowing where she is... That's exactly what happens in this spirit showcase... It does not matter if the survivor messes up because most tiles are just not safe against spirit especially when she is not going in addonless... And when you hear her rotating in one direction you need to act accordingly to that... unless you can just leave the tile entirely and go to the next one... But that risks that she will catch you in the open without any safety...
Mindgames play around reactions... you want them to react in a certain way... and then change to doing something different which puts them in a bad spot because they assumed the killer was coming from a different direction...
"This is wrong. you do have general information. Deathslinger is going to shoot at some point, you need figure out at what point he is going to shoot and Spirit is going phase and you need figure out her routing to neutralized effectiveness of phasing. that is entire mindgame behind their ability. this is entire point of their mindgame."
No he is not gonna shoot you necessarily... If you just wiggle around and don't go anywhere he can just M1 you without the need to use his power at all... And even if he was guaranteed to shoot you at some point... What does it matter? It does not narrow it down to give you anything to work with...
The whole point of a mindgame is to force a wrong reaction... That's the entire thing... How can one be so stubborn to not understand that...
"there is skill in blind guessing. I mean Poker is great example of a game based off guessing your opponent cards, the incoming cards on the board which are known as flop, the turn and river. Some player win a lot and other player lose all the time. There is skill-cap behind guessing correctly more often then being wrong. you can never be fully correct because there is element of luck, but it is not pure luck. it is combination of luck and intuition.
The killer that are strong in DBD are strong because they force you to guess on their gameplay. They play a mindgame on top of regular dbd gameplay loop. One of key details behind mindgames is that they create an illusion of lose/lose situation, not that situation is lose/lose. it just looks like lose/lose situation. there is suppose to be always a correct play. It is just difficult to always do the correct play because principal of mindgames is revolves around a lack of information to make correct play every time. If you could see your opponent hand every time, you'd win every card game but that is whole challenge."
- There is no skill in blind guessing... Because what blind guessing means is without having any information that could lead you to assume one or another thing you just guess... That's why it is just like tossing a coin... Pure luck, no skill.
- Poker is a terrible example... In poker you know how many cards are in the set, you know which cards are played and calculate which cards you haven't seen and which card combination would beat yours, therefore you can calculate the probability of winning or loosing and play accordingly to that... In addition you can try to read your opponents if they have tells... Let's say we have a player with a very obvious tell.. When he has a bad set of cards he touches his left ear... You can now try to read into that tell when he is touching his ear... But what your opponent can do know is touch his ear when he has good cards to throw you off... Both players can make assumptions based on the give information... The player touching his ear is trying to make you believe he has bad cards, therefore he is trying to mindgame you... Such an obvious example is for sure not gonna happen in pro poker tournaments I assume... But I hope you finally get what a mindgame is... If you still don't understand then I guess hope is lost....
- Regular DBD includes many mindgames... Since otherwise you would only every follow the exact same path the survivor took... Doubling back, moonwalking, red light mindgame, coming from a different angle and so on .... those are all mindgames that are regularly used by players, not even necessarily good players...
The killers that are strong in DBD will put you in a loose loose situation if mastered... You can only delay them for so long... Nurse does not need mindgames, she can just run straight on top of you... Spirit with mother daughter ring does not need mindgames, because she is so fast she can just catch you regardless and so on... I think you just don't understand how this game works at that point and for some reason don't even question your beliefs even with that massive amount of information that proves it wrong... Sad to be so delusional... :/
Also he was saying that when staying in the way he described the difference was so narrow that you could not necessarily pin point her exactly ...
I am saying you can know her position as shown in the spirit is dead video.
How is it balancing around bad survivors... A good or a bad survivor had to guess in the exact same way and the skill did not matter as they could not use their skill to process the given information since ther was just no information given at all... Also he was saying that when staying in the way he described the difference was so narrow that you could not necessarily pin point her exactly ...
No he is not gonna shoot you necessarily... If you just wiggle around and don't go anywhere he can just M1 you without the need to use his power at all... And even if he was guaranteed to shoot you at some point... What does it matter? It does not narrow it down to give you anything to work with...
one of major differences between better survivors and worse survivors is putting yourself in favourable position to guess correctly. there is no name for this, but it is about taking the path of least resistance. Remember what I said about wiggling in my previous post? Wiggling is about confusing killer where he is suppose to shoot while moving as forward as possible.. its risk vs reward mechanism. Worse survivor over-wiggle/wiggle incorrectly because their objective with wiggling is never get hit rather then to reduce probability of getting hit. You need to know how to hold-w effectively vs slinger to take path of least resistance then guess incoming shots that are inevitable to occur through normal dbd gameplay loop. You just want a full proof 100% strategy that asserts 0% probability in getting hit. In your ideal form of killers, you want to line of sight the killer and give near zero probability for the killer to shoot and just in case, he does get to shoot, you want to react to his shot and be able to near 100% dodge it. That is kinda of where slinger is at now a days. Survivor main logic is amusing. I will give it that.
I have nothing more to say about the topic. you can believe that seeing everything the killer does precisely and doing appropriate play is you outplaying the killer(winning mindgames) but I do not agree with that notion.
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I just want healing reduction speed back. the perk was suppose to incentive killer to spread injure pressure and keep everyone injured. the whole repair bonus aspect was there to give a lower bound reward for survivors that refuse to heal and decide to play injured the entire trial(to counter the perk).
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@Xernoton said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3268821#Comment_3268821
Are you honestly comparing the entity blocking windows after 3 vaults and Bamboozle? The difference is that Bamboozle is used by the killer. Make that base kit and see what happens. Shack and other window loops become completely useless, if you add a mechanic like that. You are proving my point that we should NOT make perks base kit but find other ways to deal with these issues. Bamboozle is already a good perk. Its biggest weakness is... Well its a perk. 1 of only 4 you can actually bring into a match and most killers would rather bring something other than Bamboozle.
Its good that you bring up BT as well. I was one of the people that asked for the unhooked survivor to lose collision instead, mainly so that it could not be used in unintended ways. They went with BT base kit because (probably because, as you said, it was easy). And look what happened after BHVR created precedence for one perk getting that treatment. Already people are asking for more. Not just balancing but entire perks implemented as base kit mechanics. You see people asking for Bond, Kindred, DS (though that one isn't a new development) and quite a few perks on killer side as well.
Perks are designed to help you out in dealing with certain situations. For example: You play survivor, don't know the maps all too well and therefore you have trouble making it to a safe structure in chase. The perk that helps you out is Windows of Opportunity. If you find yourself having trouble with a situation then use a perk that helps you with that. A friend of mine is completely addicted to Safe the best for Last and has changed his playstyle quite a bit to maximize the use he gets out of that perk. If he decided to all of a sudden not use it anymore he would have change his playstyle. Do you think STBFL for be base kit for that reason? He obviously feels like he has to use it.
Many killers feel forced to run certain regression perks every single game. Are they going to be next on the list? Something tells me Eruption or Pain Res base kit is not a great idea. What is with all the lovely people that people that send themselves to Midwich to play starstruck Nurse? Are we going to add starstruck then? They use it every game and surely they would like to not give up a perk slot for that. What about Trapper, Hag and Myers, killers that basically have no choice other than running Corrupt Intervention every single game? Can't wait to see Corrupt Intervention base kit on killers like Blight, Nurse, Spirit, Plague, Oni, Wesker, Sadako and hell even Nemesis (basically all killers that can heavily profit from free slow down without downing a survivor). Basically you could take this further for every meta perk in the game because there is a reason these perks are meta and others are not, which is also reflected in their pick rates.
Think about what happens when perks become base kit. It doesn't just shift the balance a little. It also influences how the game is played. Surviors play more and more reckless around hooks and killers tend to break more pallets during chase. I am 100% against the idea of base kit Unbreakable for that reason as well. There is too many ways in which it would benefit you even when it shouldn't.
Next is of course the free perk slot you get with every perk that you don't have to equip anymore. It allows players to use other perks instead while still keeping the benefits of the old perk. For example: Lethal Pursuer. There are quite a few players that need this perk because they don't know the spawns or the they get unlucky and spawn in the middle of the map. You make that perk base kit for everyone no matter if they need it or not. Now everyone has a free 5th perk and the players that used it before could simply bring more slow down.
Also some perks synergize quite well with each other. Best example Kindred + Open Handed. This combination would be absolutely unfair if it didn't require 2 perks. There are quite a few equivalents on killer side as well and this will only increase as new perks are added to the game.
I think base-kit perks should only be considered if they resolve a particular problem that is not possible to avoid. Base-kit kindred or base-kit global bond is trying resolve a coercion problem for solo-q because its somewhat of unavoidable problem of team games that team games require a bit of teamwork to win. The effect of providing better team coercion is that survivor becomes more optimized at healing, doing generators, doing flashlight saves, sabo, looping and so on. its making soloq become closer to SWF-level.
scourge hook pain res would be really nice at base-kit imo. With faster everything, killer's might need an extra boost in term of rewards for hooking survivors when they are successful at the chase. I think it would be healthy addition for every hook to automatically regress the highest progress generator by 15%. It would promote killers to tunnel less and hook more individual survivors.
perhaps a change like this might be good for next year's dbd perk update in 2023.
In term of killer themselves, its better to improve the killer individually then to put blanket changes in form of perks. base-kit perks should only be considered for very important problems that are not possible to resolve without perks.
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@AMOGUS said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3269010#Comment_3269010
Even if this is a literal Survivor skillshot and can only be done a few times per trial at max?
Heck, if a mythical "4 man bully SWF" tries to run this perk, they'd be struggling for uses because more than 1 user would be consuming items on this perk... and of course, wasting time gathering items.
he is suggesting a perk that works like diversion that stuns killer for 5 seconds for throwing an item. Elodie has a perk called Appraisal. It allows you to search a chest after opening a chest to find a random item(3 tokens). his perk is game-breaking.
A ranged stun would break so many killer powers and be stronger then any exhaustion perk in the game. here's some examples.
Nurse is charging a blink at you, She blinks, Throws an item, 5 second stun. No second blink
Blight is charging at you, boom 5 second stun+2.5 second fatique
Wraith is de-cloaking, throw an item, 8 second stun(Decloak stuns you)
Bubba is using his chainsaw, 5 second stun.
Huntress is trying to charge her axes at you, boom 5 second stun
The killer is in the middle of breaking a pallet, 5 second stun.
The killer is trying to carry a survivor to a hook, 5 second stun, Survivor falls off.
The killer is trying hit a survivor in front of him that is unhooking, 5 second stun.
This bully material perk. The killer wants to have fun in the game as well.
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No ranged decisive strike please.
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@Archol123 said:
"so how is that any different with other killer powers when killer guess wrong? When I guess wrong, I get long chases as killer and lose. When survivor guess wrong, they get short chases. its fair interaction."
I have no clue what you are even trying to say with that?
A mindgame is by definition the attempt to trick someone into believing that a specific thing is gonna happen and act according to that specific thing just to do something else and throw them of by doing it this way... Therefore you need some form of interaction with which you make the other person mistakenly believing that you're going to do a certain thing. By hiding your light you generally intend to make them believe you changed direction... This can however be a double mindgame where you combine it with moonwalking... The survivor now has to act accordingly to what he think the killer is going to do... This is by definition a mind game. Yes curving is really hard to pull off against good players... But the back and forth around the loop against a Billy is basically the survivor acting accordingly to the billys movement... Billy only works on survivor mistakes... When he could get the survivor to place themselves poorly he can curve them.
The chess example is terrible... Chess has much to do with possibilitys each specific moves opens up a large number of further moves the player can do, based upon the playstyle of the player. Even in chess there can be mindgames where one person cannot be sure if the other one wants them to make a specific move, maybe it is a bait, maybe they just made a mistake... Trying to make someone make a preemptive move by baiting them is a common mind game to pull off...
You can basically never know when billy is gonna start his chainsaw sprint because he can feather it... So once again this is a terrible example... A mindgame needs the intention to trick the other person by presenting them a specific set of information whether that information is true or false cannot be verified by the survivor easily... Let's for example take old billy... chainsaw without addons is 2.5 seconds with both addons 1.6 seconds... If billy starts revving his saw and starts the sprint at 2.6 seconds you have no clue if he has a faster chainsaw or not... All you can do is blind guess... A prediction usually needs some form of information on which the prediction is based and which is evaluated... And at the same time Billy has complete control over where is gonna aim his chainsaw just like huntress or nurse can flick just before using their power... You can only make an educated guess that they're probably gonna launch their power in the direction they are currently facing... Which is more than a blind guess but can still be wrong.
If you have watched the spirit showcase video that I posted from Hens you can see that the spirit does not have to predict where the survivor is... A good spirit knows exactly where the survivor is while phasing... Both survivor and killer have an somewhat accurate idea of where the other one currently is... The point that makes a mindgame possible in this situation is doubling back... When the spirit chases the survivor around the loop in one direction the survivor will run away from her in the other direction... When the spirit doubles back the survivor can adjust shortly after... and by changing the way she is going around the loop she can bring the survivor into a position from where he cannot reach the pallet before spirit can hit them... For further information on mindgaming with current spirit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95MMF04erLo
The safe loop argument is somewhat invalid as I said before, loops that are safe against normal killers are not necessarily safe against spirit... Since she moves so fast at Wreckers Yard for example there are two safe loops against spirit and that's shack with pallet and the crane... That's all... Any other tile is not safe against spirit. If a loop is safe or not depends on the killer not necessarily on the loop so that's where you wrong there buddy. Shack can be safe against M1 killers but is very unsafe against many others like Wesker, Huntress or Demogorgon.
"The frustration of reading this post drives me wild. Oh man. your not suppose to react the shot.... your suppose predict when he is about to shoot and dodge at very last mili-second. For how small his harpoon gun spear is (hitbox-wise), wiggling vs slinger's gun right now, he has greater odds to miss long ranges shot then hits shots. You can almost react to deathslinger's gun and side-step outside of his harpoon gun on reaction. Its so stupid for slinger at the moment. And this wind-up thing with huntress hatchets does not matter either other then increasing the odds for huntress to suffer from Line of sight(LOS) issues. thank goodness that wind-up add-on exist to make this less of pain. Once again, its suppose to be about mindgaming.... and anticipation."
With no indication of when the player is going to shoot you once again have no idea... So you are again just blind guessing... No skill involved there you toss a coin and if you by chance guessed correctly you'll not get hit otherwise you will... It is that easy. To anticipate a certain action you need to have a hint that something is going to happen... When a huntress is winding up her hatchet you can try to react to the shot that will follow soon... But with slinger just chasing you normally and randomly quick shooting you there is just nothing you can do but blindly guessing when he is going to shoot. Every pvp game is somewhat about action and reaction... You play a game, aquire the skills to improve and then try reacting accordingly to what the other person is doing... That works in RTS, Chess or whatever game you're basically playing... In RTS for example you can pull off great mindgames... I'll use starcraft 2 as an example here: If you build the tech building that is required for invisible units and make the enemy spot it he will probably react to that by building something that grants him invisibility detection... If you had the plan from the beginning to just trick him into building detection without wanting to actually build invisible units you have succesfully mindgamed him into doing that. You have given him a certain information to which he reacted in the way you expected him and used that to your advantage. That is the core of any mindgame... You give the other party misinformation and let them act the way you planned for and then benefit from it.
"what you learn over-time as playing survivor is knowing how to guess and when to guess. Also how to avoid guessing when it is not necessary to guess. your looking for how to loop killer for 5 generators every game consistently. "
But if you were able to learn how to guess it would not be a blind guess anymore... The definition of a blind guess is that you have 0 information about the outcome and you just throw a coin and hope for the best... You cannot learn that... You can maybe try to predict by taking into account what people usually do in a certain situation... But then again the problem there is the general lack of information about old spirits power and deathslingers quick scoping... Since you had 0 information and there was not really a comparable situation to other games played against the killer because you could never see what exactly they did...
Predicting something that has no indication that it will happen soon is purely luck based... If you are sitting in front of your computer and at some point with no warning beforehand it will just explode... How do you predict when it will happen? It's simple: You can't and exactly like that you could not react to old spirit hitting you with her power or slinger insta shooting you. You had 0 information when it was about to happen and therefore could only select a random moment purely by chance at which you thought it would happen... But it is nothing but luck... Nothing you did had impact on the outcome of the decision... And this is exactly what people don't want in video games... They want the decisions they make to have an impact on the outcome.
I would even go as far as to say it is not only the definition of a mindgame that the community has... But it is a general definition:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/XWTJMJMNDZCL/image.png
Once again: "Actions intended to mislead someone else, often to gain advantage for oneself"
By hiding his red light behind a high wall the killer tries to mislead you into thinking he changed directions to gain an advantage and hit you. This is by common definition a mindgame: You present false information and capitalize on the other side believing the false information to be true, and this can only be achieved by actually presenting information.
This is basically the definition of mindgame the whole world uses... I browsed a few dictionary websites and they all came up with basically this... So if you like this definition or not does not matter since everybody else uses the word in that sense, therefore I can simply say your definition of mindgame is wrong as it does not mean what the word actually means and how it is used by everybody else.
every word in language often has context and in the context of real life, Mindgame is more synonym of the word Deception which is act of deceiving another person which if we expand word deceiving. It is something along lines of making someone believe something that is false/untrue which is what you are posting.
Mindgame in the context of DBD is not deception. We are not playing town of salem or original name, Mafia. Its not game about deceiving. In the context of dbd, when player refer to a mindgame, its related to predicting what the opponent will do before they do it with minimal/no information.
I also do not understand all these scottjund because.... these scottjund videos are textbook example of... how not play vs spirit. Man, I hate the whole balance around -bad- survivor players mentality. This whole thing he is talking about does not work vs good survivors..... you hear directional where spirit is phasing. in other words. you know exactly her precise location every second. that is why she has no dust clouds because who needs dust clouds with directional audio cue, the audio cue is better then seeing the killer with wall-hacks. you slide pallets on reaction. there is no mindgames. I went to search old video to showcase this. tru3 showcases this on ptb.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoxYLiP7iLE&t=14sAs you can see, he can track spirit on the hill perfectly and shack pallet perfectly which applies to all pallets in the game. This is what I mean that spirit has no mindgames because its all reaction and reaction are not mindgames. they are... reactions.
the problem there is the general lack of information about old spirits power and deathslingers quick scoping... Since you had 0 information and there was not really a comparable situation to other games played against the killer because you could never see what exactly they did...
This is wrong. you do have general information. Deathslinger is going to shoot at some point, you need figure out at what point he is going to shoot and Spirit is going phase and you need figure out her routing to neutralized effectiveness of phasing. that is entire mindgame behind their ability. this is entire point of their mindgame.
You can basically never know when billy is gonna start his chainsaw sprint because he can feather it... So once again this is a terrible example... A mindgame needs the intention to trick the other person by presenting them a specific set of information whether that information is true or false cannot be verified by the survivor easily
that is literally billy's mindgame. you don't know when he is going release the chainsaw and you do not know where he is going to aim. you just know he is going to use it. you have to guess what trajectory the billy will use his chainsaw. that is same mindgame that victor has with his pounce. you know he is going to use pounce, you don't know where the player will aim it, you need guess where the player will aim it and you wiggle while moving as forward as possible to make it as difficult as possible to land the hit.
With current billy, he charges his chainsaw too slowly and he walks too slowly to curve because the survivor is always going to be perfectly 180-degree's from billy's position. that is just how looping works. He can't walk to correct position to curve because survivor can always walk to correct edge of the loop to avoid curve. As a result, there is no mindgame. its just reacting to where billy walks. this whole current counter-play is Line of sight+Reactions and as I said, Line of sight+Reaction /= is not mindgames.
what made him good before is that he could rotate loop by walking as 115% m/s killer and dynamically curve around loop. you could not line of sight billy, you needed to predict when he releases his chainsaw and where he dashes with his chainsaw. it created interesting mindgames at loops.
The definition of a blind guess is that you have 0 information about the outcome and you just throw a coin and hope for the best... You cannot learn that...
there is skill in blind guessing. I mean Poker is great example of a game based off guessing your opponent cards, the incoming cards on the board which are known as flop, the turn and river. Some player win a lot and other player lose all the time. There is skill-cap behind guessing correctly more often then being wrong. you can never be fully correct because there is element of luck, but it is not pure luck. it is combination of luck and intuition.
The killer that are strong in DBD are strong because they force you to guess on their gameplay. They play a mindgame on top of regular dbd gameplay loop. One of key details behind mindgames is that they create an illusion of lose/lose situation, not that situation is lose/lose. it just looks like lose/lose situation. there is suppose to be always a correct play. It is just difficult to always do the correct play because principal of mindgames is revolves around a lack of information to make correct play every time. If you could see your opponent hand every time, you'd win every card game but that is whole challenge.
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@Blueberry said:
He barely got buffed at all with none of the changes having much of any real impact whatsoever and none of his core issues in design were addressed at all. Lots of design issues already at release, feels bad.
i find it funny they had decide to nerf his add-on's. He is almost more likely to be worse then better.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3268642#Comment_3268642
Yeah I can see your point
Call of Brine is basically a power creep version of surveillance if you think about it
Surveillance turns a gen white when you kick it and it'll turn yellow if a survivor gets on it
Or you just use call of brine to make a gen regress twice as fast and give you notifications if a survivor hits a good skillcheck, which is more accurate info because a gen tap will trigger surveillance
Even Overcharge gives you info if they miss the skillcheck.
its funny that your saying that because i said that when sadako chapter released that COB is power-creep surveillance.
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this would just be current pain res+dms where DMS is useless because good survivor do not get hit by it. eruption is good because its not easy to counter. its suppose guaranteed slowdown for downing a survivor. you counter the perk by being good at chase and by gen-rushing killer so he does not have much time to kick generators/finish gen before eruption procs. SWF issue with the perk need to be fixed though.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3268162#Comment_3268162
Once again... Comp players made the spirit also guess... Which is terrible game design by itself... Just both parties are guessing at this point... But the reason why some chases are really long and some end withing 20 seconds is the same with a coin toss... The probability is 50 50 but if you throw the coin often enough there is a high probability that the coin will land in your favor many times in a row but the opposite will also happen very likely... That's just how probability works... So that's why the results where like that... When he guessed right a lot he lived longer when he didn't the chase ended immediatly...
Yeah sure skillshots are hard to land... But skillshots from a distance... not from 2 m away... Because you simply cannot react at that short of a distance. You won't even be able to press a button in time after the attack starts...
Spirit still moves at almost double your speed... Changing direction while chasing is somewhat a mindgame... If the other player doesn't expect you to do it you will catch him offguard... And spirit can do this while in her power... Also I'm not entirely sure how often the cue refreshes... Dude if you're not playing mindgames on the survivor while chasing what exactly are you doing? Just balatanlty following? Hiding your light, changing direction(while out of sight) and so on are all really basic mindgames you can do... A mindgame does not need to be something huge... It can just be coming from a weird angle so they run into you... During chase not at the beginning... The whole point of the change was to give players feedback what spirit is doing to react appropriately... A good spirit will still trash you man ^^ I already sent you the spirit showcase video by Hens you still cannot reliably loop her, just because she moves at double your speed... She will still catch you. When you get an idea of what the killer is doing by some information you can react appropriately to it by using your skill... But if you play against old spirit and you just have no information whatsoever that just does not apply... So with the spirit change a player can use their skill to do stuff and not just blindly guess... Now god pallets stop her, but not even the pallets in jungle gyms are safe enough so spirit has to break them... in the showcase only the crane pallet and shack are strong enough so they need to get broken, no other one.
And now you bring in deathslinger man... Slinger was just as bad... You couldn't react to insta shooting... At least you get some wind up time and only then you need to start guessing when he will shoot... That's somewhat better I guess... I still don't like it that you have such a fast attack with no appropriate windup... I mean if we compare it to a huntress hatchet and how long she has to hold it till it is maximum charged... And only then they move at the same time... But at a very short range you cannot react to either of them...
Also Spirit is still in full controll of the chase... No idea why she would not? She moves at over 7m/s... Just because you know she is coming does not necessarily mean you can do much about it in many situations... Also I don't think the skill required for spirit and Deathslinger did get changed... Spirits brainless stand still mind game is no more and now she can mindgame by changing directions in loops to trick the survivor... I think it got even increased... Unless you play the unga bunga spirit build with spirit fury enduring and the addon the refreshes your power when you get stunned or break a pallet or whatever it was? The same for slinger his mechanics didn't get touched besides the wind up time... And let's be honest insta shooting required 0 skill... You just line up while following and the survivor cannot dodge at all in time...
Deathslinger and Spirit had no mindgame powers before the change man... Like stated many times... A mindgame needs some form of setup... Something the person does that tries to mindgame... But in both cases the survivor had nothing he could react to.
When you play against a curv billy he is constantly trying to put you in a position at a tile where he can curve you... And by constantly changing his position he makes you believe he will come from that side... Until you place yourself poorly and he can curve you... I think that's a mindgame like power... And I think it is great to go against... You can never be sure from which side he will curve you and also not if he goes tight or wide... But the survivor can also react to it and has a good chance to not get hit if he knows what he is doing... You seem to have a problem differentiating mindgame and guessing... Survivors don't have a problem with mindgames... They however do not want to constantly guess as they want to apply their aquired skill to the game and just does not happen when all they can do is guess... Let's go back to the billy example... Let's say the tile is shaped in a form that makes it way harder to curve from one side and easier from the other... The billy knows what he is doing but he hasn't mastered billy... Based onthose two things you can now make an educated guess that it is more likely he will take the easier curve because he might not be able to pull off the other one... That's an example for something survivors enjoy...
I mean we have played the game for several thousand hours and learned countless of things... All we want to do is apply the things we learned in a skillfull way to try to last long in chase... And if a killer like Artist, old spirit or the knight as he seemed on ptb just does not let someone use their skill then this is just not fun... (Artist and Knight because they basically put their power down at a loop and if you cannot find a connected tile you will get hit...)... Once again why would you like to play a game where you put in so much time and all it comes down to in chase is guessing without any hints if you're right or wrong beforehand... If you think guessing is fun good for you I guess... But most people don't as they'd rather apply what they learned to outplay the other side.
So that's why the results where like that... When he guessed right a lot he lived longer when he didn't the chase ended immediatly...
so how is that any different with other killer powers when killer guess wrong? When I guess wrong, I get long chases as killer and lose. When survivor guess wrong, they get short chases. its fair interaction.
When you play against a curv billy he is constantly trying to put you in a position at a tile where he can curve you... And by constantly changing his position he makes you believe he will come from that side... Until you place yourself poorly and he can curve you... I think that's a mindgame like power... And I think it is great to go against... You can never be sure from which side he will curve you and also not if he goes tight or wide... But the survivor can also react to it and has a good chance to not get hit if he knows what he is doing... You seem to have a problem differentiating mindgame and guessing... Survivors don't have a problem with mindgames...
first of all, this is not mindgame. you can see what billy is exactly doing and react to his negative movement speed penalty when holding his chainsaw. Reacting =/ is not mindgames. Mindgames are cannot be seen nor can you react to them they are only predictable. its like playing chess 3D but knowing what your opponent next move is before he does the move in advance. I cannot really go on to further explain this anymore then I have to. In reference to billy, if your movement is good enough, you can always make corner on every curve currently with billy. curving does not work vs good players anymore. Furthermore, you can often just detach loops at key moments and then billy who is trying his curving will just look like a circus clown.
Old billy curving worked because he could dynamically loop as normal m1 killer at 115% m/s, but at any point in the loop, he could curve loops by having 1.6 chainsaw cast time, this was refer to as "instasaw" that appeared by using a green add-on called carburettor tuning guide which reduced charge time by 18% and primer blub which also reduced the charge by another 18%(36% total). In any case, he had mindgame where you had to guess his chainsaw charge time for when he releases his chainsaw and you had to predict where billy was aiming his chainsaw. So once again, lack of information+impossible to react to by human standards due to fast m/s. This is what mindgame is, not that baby mode billy that you see today.
going back to your statement. Survivors do have a problem with mindgames. you do not want mindgames, you want loop killers around and perfectly react to whatever killer is doing. that is what spirit is now a days. you can just loop spirit like a normal killer around safe loops. in essence spirit has to guess where the survivor is while survivor knows where she is. She has a bit more gameplay at unsafe loops but almost every killer has gameplay there.
And now you bring in deathslinger man... Slinger was just as bad... You couldn't react to insta shooting... At least you get some wind up time and only then you need to start guessing when he will shoot... That's somewhat better I guess... I still don't like it that you have such a fast attack with no appropriate windup... I mean if we compare it to a huntress hatchet and how long she has to hold it till it is maximum charged... And only then they move at the same time... But at a very short range you cannot react to either of them...
The frustration of reading this post drives me wild. Oh man. your not suppose to react the shot.... your suppose predict when he is about to shoot and dodge at very last mili-second. For how small his harpoon gun spear is (hitbox-wise), wiggling vs slinger's gun right now, he has greater odds to miss long ranges shot then hits shots. You can almost react to deathslinger's gun and side-step outside of his harpoon gun on reaction. Its so stupid for slinger at the moment. And this wind-up thing with huntress hatchets does not matter either other then increasing the odds for huntress to suffer from Line of sight(LOS) issues. thank goodness that wind-up add-on exist to make this less of pain. Once again, its suppose to be about mindgaming.... and anticipation.
Yeah sure skillshots are hard to land... But skillshots from a distance... not from 2 m away... Because you simply cannot react at that short of a distance. You won't even be able to press a button in time after the attack starts...
2 meter away is nearly pointblank. I can usually get to 4 meters away from victor almost consistently because I can take account into his 1 second charge time(where he cannot attack), I don't know how to describe it, but its something like dodging old instasaw billy backrev's without instant down part. your describing a learn to play issue. Victor hitbox is not that big where he is further away. only when he is really close is he dangerous but twin's player rarely use victor like hail mary grenade. Not a reliable way to hit with victor. Another thing i forgot mention is that victor does not work really well on elevations, like staircases are like really bad for victor.
Once again why would you like to play a game where you put in so much time and all it comes down to in chase is guessing without any hints if you're right or wrong beforehand... If you think guessing is fun good for you I guess... But most people don't as they'd rather apply what they learned to outplay the other side.
what you learn over-time as playing survivor is knowing how to guess and when to guess. Also how to avoid guessing when it is not necessary to guess. your looking for how to loop killer for 5 generators every game consistently. With old dead hard, I made so few mistakes in loops that most m1 killers if they commited to chasing me would lose like 3 generator, sometimes even 5 generators in a single chase. Luckily, good killer players do not just blindly commit to chases and know when to stop chasing, so after MMR, its not very likely that a killer player will do those mistakes because good killer know when a survivor is good and when committing to the chase is not worth it.
in conclusion, I do not agree with communities notion of mindgames. Because a lot of killer powers lack mindgames to their ability(weak abilities), a lot of killer are at mercy of survivor's looping skill in my opinion which creates fast gen-speed because of lack ability to pressure survivors and win chases. I wish killer power were more impactful but due to allergy of mindgames, its seems that direction is to de-void killer powers from having mindgames. Just have everything telegraphed. Who knows, perhaps they'll eventually weaken pallet loop enough to make killers not need powers to need have mindgames. Killer will just bloodlust win every loop. This is just my 2 cents on the topic.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3268598#Comment_3268598
I think the Knight is overall worse off from these changes. Those two info perks would have been so useful to help Knight find survivors to chase, but with that nerfed into the ground, and complex pathing still trash, he’s only useful for his teachable perks.
yeah. its too bad changes were not more mild like reveal 1-2 random survivors with aura, 1-2 random survivor scream when the assassin guard is summoned. He'll be pretty similar from ptb, likely the map add-on(Lower guard detection) change and the guard summoning time+guard detection time decrease will counter-act each other and produce no change at all.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
I’m more concerned that Healing Poultice and Flint and Steel got nerfed into the ground.
yeah I am sad :(
that's kinda feeling my guess for what would happen. I was like,,, eh the guard are not amazing but the add-on... they're kinda good and that is rare sight in dbd to have decent add-on for killer. the add-on would help knight be more playable... so it is sad that they were nerfed to the ground. He might be worse coming out of ptb. I am also uncertain of the map of realm change. yes the guard spawns faster and get radius faster... but lower radius... somewhat hurts? Its kinda his best add-on right now because radius felt really small at base-kit. it would been nice to have 1/4 or 2/4 of add-on base-kit. I was specifically wanting to play knight because of add-on were really fun to use in PTB. I kinda feel like otz over-reacted to it. perhaps it would be better if add-on made 1-2 survivors scream randomly and aura add-on made 1-2 survivors aura be read when summoning x guard.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3266904#Comment_3266904
Ok yes agreed you could see the shards light up... But only when she was right next to you... At a normal distance in chase there is no way for you to see it... As you can see in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOHy-NA2qaY
So yeah... this hint was absolutely useless in a realistic scenario...
I have never heard anyone say something about phase cycles nor have I seen video proof of such a thing existing... So unless you can give me a source for that information I'm just gonna assume it is wrong...
Yes he had some long chases with him and also some chases that lasted 20-30 seconds... The point is... Scott is a good spirit, the other guy was a comp player... That is a completely different level of skill... And the whole point stays... When you guess right... When you just got lucky by chance because there was no tell that she was phasing so all you could do was guess.. No skill involved whatsoever...
Nobody wants 100% safe counterplay so can you finally stop repeating that line like a broken cd... But your skill did not matter against her... As it was completely irrelevant to guessing right or wrong...
According to the wiki:
https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Basic_Attacks#Lunge_Attack
A lunge attack lasts for 0.3 seconds in which your speed is increased to 6.9m/s... so you'll travel roughly 2.3 m in that time whereas the survivor will travel 1/3*4m/s 1.333 m/s Therefore I don't think 5 m is lunge distance... Also ofc the example is about her being on the other side of a tile... Why else would she even phase otherwise? Spirit keeps her phase speed for 1 second after coming out of phase and can then go into the lunge... With those two combined you will make like 4.5 m/s (or something similar) on the survivor... during that 1.3 seconds of post phase speed and lunge attack.
When we compare the red light mindgame and old spirits phasing the difference is that when you hide your red light you actually do something... Spirit did not have to do anything to "mindgame" the survivor... Since he had no information whatsoever... The whole thing about a mindgame is playing with expectations... You do something that makes the killer or survivor think that some other thing is gonna happen next... The survivor runs toward a window or pallet but fakes it... There is always some form of interaction between boths parties with makes the gameplay... But if you have no information whatsoever you're not mind gaming anyone... Because you're not doing anything.
What I see as skillfull is knowing how to run and connect loops, knowing how to align a fast vault at the most narrow spaces... Being able to counterplay every killer to some degree and in general having good knowledge of the game and how it works... Playing on Gideon takes no skill whatsoever from both sides... Drop 25 safe pallets and kick 25 safe pallets... What I want out of gameplay is the chance for improvement learning mechanics and getting the understanding of the game and apply it in a practical way.
I will die on that hill but I don't think any good killer will miss a survivor because of wiggling... And it is just not skillfull. Once again you're just doing something without any real interaction or goal. You're just hoping for the best without a real plan behind it.
Spirit is still the 2nd or 3rd best killer in the game without a doubt and she got some even better addons now. And now you can actually mindgame with her... By making the survivor believe you're coming from one way around the loop which makes him start rotating in the opposite direction and then changing your direction which he won't notice immediatly so you can catch him offguard before he can reach the pallet again. That's a real mindgame... You're giving someone a certain expectation and then you're doing something else what he did not expect. People felt bad about playing spirit as she was one of the most unfun killers to go against because there was just no counterplay to her... Nothing skillfull you could have done...
Why would you think she was more fun to play back then? Her addons are somewhat stronger nowadays and according to you you woul have known anyway that she was phasing so nothing really changed... (At least in your own little world... Because for everyone else she was miserable to go against and did not really change gameplaywise from the killer side...)
When you guess right... When you just got lucky by chance because there was no tell that she was phasing so all you could do was guess.. No skill involved whatsoever...
But your skill did not matter against her... As it was completely irrelevant to guessing right or wrong...
If your skill did not matter at all and it was entirely based off spirit's skill, then why was the chase so long? you would expect every single chase to have exact same duration. You look like your repeating yourself a lot more then I am.
I will die on that hill but I don't think any good killer will miss a survivor because of wiggling... And it is just not skillfull. Once again you're just doing something without any real interaction or goal. You're just hoping for the best without a real plan behind it.
Well I definitely disagree. A survivor with tricky movement is more difficult to hit then a survivor with no movement. Your saying that killer have 100% accuracy on their ability. I would say killers miss their ability more often based off how tricky the surivovor movement is. Having tricky movement does not guaranteed dodging every attack. your only more likely to make the killer miss. I'm sure there are many survivor player that make twin players miss pounces and get victor crushed which results in twin's losing games. I would imagine that being part of why she has low-play rate. very punishing killer to play that requires a lot of macro play and macro game knowledge along with strong degree in micro gameplay for not great rewards. I don't know what to tell you, but difficult to land skillshots+slugging is among highest skill-cap elements on the killer side. Not a very accessible killer in my opinion.
now you can actually mindgame with her... By making the survivor believe you're coming from one way around the loop which makes him start rotating in the opposite direction and then changing your direction which he won't notice immediatly so you can catch him offguard before he can reach the pallet again.
um, no? there are no mindgames with spirit anymore. She is somewhat normal looping killer now. She has directional audio cue. you know exact precise location of the killer. there is no guessing or catching anyone off guard. These days, I can dead hard the spirit attack out of phase-walk and sometimes get pallet stuns on spirits in phase-walk. You can semi-consistently 1vs1 the spirit. I thought that was the whole point of the change?
Why would you think she was more fun to play back then?
I don't know, I just do not think there is mindgames with her anymore. The sense of anticipation and uncertainty in predicting her movement faded away? my conclusion from this conversation is that killers with mindgames-type powers are miserable to play against and not very fun for survivor. Only looping and being in near full control of the chase is fun for survivor. I guess it all add up to why deathslinger and spirit were changed in the same update. such unskillful killers /s.
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@FilthyLegionMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3267244#Comment_3267244
Think you meant thread because threat's a WHOLE different thing. I really wish there were ways that powers could be altered. Like the mutations in VHS which can change the playstyle around. It would lead to a LOT more variety in the same killers people face.
mutation are add-on's in dbd. I think your looking for a more chase-oriented legion that downs people with direct feral frenzy hits. The only add-on to provide a chase benefit is iri button. it instantly break pallets if you vault them, however remember that pallet take 2.7(?) to kick and feral frenzy has 3 second fatique, so regardless of how fast he vaults to break pallets, it means nothing because its total break is always 3 seconds due to fatique mechanic.
I think if you wanted to make legion more chase-focused, you need add negative penalty to his power to add artificial counter-play to his power. One idea I had for this is that survivor can grab an item like Sadako's videotape(It does not fill item slot) and the item would be called Running shoes. It grants ability to press E to dead hard. If you have an exhaustion perk equipped, it replaces that exhaustion perk with old dead hard that has cooldown of 10 seconds that recoveries while running.
The additional mechanic is that if legion vaults a pallet, His power gauge is reduced to 5 second duration. Each feral frenzy hit reduces deep wound timer by 50%(2 hits to go down, first hit only applies deep wound) and legion power recovery would be reduced from 20->15. Missing a swing put you into fatique. This provide legion with ability to chain stabs while also having option to use his power as chasing anti-loop tool. I suspect that legion would either be too easy to outplay or too difficulty because its entire skill-cap for looping legion would be based off timing dead hard for iframes. This is the type of legion your looking for in terms of balance.
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@Flopiyutiop said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3267518#Comment_3267518
They do not need to be Lerys level of Los to be better. Lerys can allow you to escape a 2 min chase against Nurse if the right distance is set. They could still have thé map size shrink and keep dense borders at the same time. It's a bit harder for projectile killer but if the obstacles are not too big, all that matter is the time it will take to reach a running survivor. In the contrary, Nurse can't just follow on foot, thus she'd suffer a lot more from such a change.
Moreover, shrinking map shouldnt have been an excuse for the removal of LOS blocker in the first place.
sure, but that is how its suppose to be. your suppose really consistent as killer 7-8/10 times on ending chases but have the opportunity that 1 bad chase can make you lose if you misplay the chase. I still think best way to fix nurse is to rework make her blinks work like Wesker's virulent bound where she needs phase-through you to hurt you. I think it would tie into her lore a lot more nicely. She is spectral(Ghost) and Ghosts in lore are all about haunting your soul and killing you from inside. I just don't think that trying balance a killer that blink through pallets(vault through pallets) and has follow-up m1 attack is possible to balance. I think it would also fix her special-attack gameplay because it would work like special attack now since nurse no longer basic attacks to injure, She just phases through you and you get injured. The suggestion to change her attacks from basic to special is inconsistent with game mechanics. I think this version of nurse would play closer to Anxious grasp add-on but instead of screaming, you would get injured.
I recon that a Wesker-type that killer that dash goes through windows and pallet would still be really strong. It would likely lower skill-floor as well but anyways, that is just my opinion. It probably need experimentation though, since perhaps 2 blink might be too much.
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@Flopiyutiop said:
It's the lack of proper structure to run her on most maps.
The best places to have a chance against Nurse are dense HIGH LOS blockers (trees, walls etc.) with just enough length that a lunge can't reach around but you, as a survivor, can juke around it and gain distance.
BUT, the newer maps are more or less wide fields in the middle, where you can only hide by crouching or standing still as a survivor. It allows for a better chance for the Killer to find survivors as he navigates the map. Even if the phenomenon is enhanced nowadays, DbD has always features pallet heavy but easier to patrol middle. It's easier to find survivors, but there is more protection to use : risk & reward
IN EXCHANGE, the border of the map was less pallet dense and there were many rocks, trees and wood structures. If the Killer found you there, you were in trouble, but you had plenty of hiding spots to discourage a meticulous search : risk & reward.
NOWADAYS, devs have rendered the map boarders mainly useless. There are still some hiding places that kinda works to discourage a chase (because who spend 30 seconds to check behind 5 rocks when one can go back to the middle gens where most of the team will be), but not enough to juke projectiles or blinks.
SO, by keeping a low number of hiding spot at those places, you prevent interesting stealth gameplay - just wait behind that one rock at the edge of the map where the Killer will never check - and counterplay to chase powers - just run and hold W anytime you can. No interesting play by sneaking behind the killer while he looks around the gen, no zigzag across a Z wall, a tree and a rock to get a +1 wood from the Nurse, just RUN the hell out there kid because you're 6 seconds away to say : Hello Mr Floor.
ANYTIME, I get that one lucky draw where you have the good trees to dodge those perfect hatchet throws, those small rocks and huge trees to make that Nurse guess, for once. It just makes so much difference in terms of gameplay. No more "just run back and forth and pray he's feeling impatient". It's even worse when you have add-ons that allow for quick recover of chase powers, where you end up to juke the power 2-3 time before the first stack of usable obstacles.
TLDR : GIVE US SOME TREES, GUYS, HUMANITY NEEDS TO BREATHE.
the dev are shrinking borders because killer are complaining that the map is too big so they'd shrink a map from 172 sqrt2 to 160 sqrt2 by shrinking borders which changes nothing because most of complaints about big maps is related to generator patrol routes and holding-w before the chase. Changing bordering is not changing the problem. its amplifying it further since your weakening stealth and creates more incentive to do that gameplay.
Nurse's gameplay requires that every map be like Lery or RPD where 80% of the map is just filled with objects and confusing line of sight blockers but most maps are wide open. It is like that so that nurse has to guess where she blinks more so then know where to blink every time. The problem with that is that adding a lot of line of sight blockers and objects make it a lot worse for other ranged-type killers to use their ability. Changing map to accommodate nurse will weaken nurse but make other killer powers feel worse/less applicable to use.
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survivors enjoy playing against weaker killers only. As result, their reward is having low variety of killers to face because nobody wants to play weak killers with limit skill expression.
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@Sava18 post is good summary of the perk. it made mindgames at risk to the killer and promote free shift-w time waste. I used to use iron will sometimes, but I do not use it anymore for precise reason that its not free value anymore. you need to build around the perk in order to get value out of it, but its not worth building around the perk over using an exhaustion perk. The exhaustion condition weakened the perk out of the meta. Survivor use Off the record now instead.
The equivalent perk on killer side that got changed that fell out of favour is Tinkerer. you barely see tinkerer similar to IW.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3266621#Comment_3266621
I am so glad you are not designing this game. By what you say, you would ideally reduce the game to rock paper scissors. With caveat that winning 50/50 or loosing once = autowin for killer, because you don't buy enough time for your team and "chases" would be too short.
Right now the game is designed so, that survivor escapes so long, as he has resources, makes no mistake and does not get outplayed by killer (but the games give a lot lot lot of opportunities to make a mistake or get outplayed. But if he does, killer gets great advantage). This is much better design then playing rock paper scissor with better graphics.
Right now the game is designed so, that survivor escapes so long, as he has resources, makes no mistake and does not get outplayed by killer
Your describing the opposite experience. the survivor can make many mistakes in chases but still escape. This is especially true if the killer spreads hooks and plays inefficiently. Killer need to massively outperform consistently at baseline to win strong survivor teams and even then, there is still a chance that end up losing and walking away with at best 2 kills.
@Archol123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3266621#Comment_3266621
So either you're meming or you seriously just don't understand 1. the game 2. what a mind game is 3. why blind guessing is completely stupid and has nothing to with skill of any sort...
Your comparison to trapper lacks any understanding of old spirit... Old spirit could just stand still and you had no idea if she was phasing or not... Trapper cannot just place a trap without you seeing him place it... Why do I even have to explain this to you dude? It was literally called the stand still mindgame... People did this and because the survivor had no idea if the spirit was phasing or not they sometimes even vaulted into the spirit... That this was actually like that and happened rather frequently is not up for debate as anybody that played against old spirit knows it... And there are probably a lot of videos up on youtube with exactly this stupid stand still mindgame...
Spirit moves at 7.04m/s at base whereas the survivor moves at 4 m/s... So let's say you are like 5 m away from her and start running away... she starts phasing... you are now 11 m away from her... You will loos 3 m of distance every second... she catches you after roughly 3.5 seconds... You seem to have 0 understanding of how this works... Leaving a tile against spirit while her power is up is just deadly... But back then you did not know when she started her phasing how often shall I tell you that? There was no way for you to know when she started to phase and therefore no way to know what speed addons she had... She could just stand still and look in which direction the survivor went or look if they started walking or something and there was no way for you to know that.
A mindgame usually works in a way where you give the other side a certain information... For example hiding your red light, which is the most basic mind game indicates for the survivor that the killer might not come around the corner... With this information he can now decide whether he things the killer will go left or right... With old spirit you had no information at all... You were just guessing... That's like saying when there are two guns aimed at you and without any warning one of them will shoot you it is skill to guess correctly which one will shoot you... It has nothing to do with skill ... Guessing is like the opposite of something skillfull.. You're not even doing an educated guess where one option or the other is more likely or with more options you are able to say at least one of them is not it...
This cannot real man... You cannot seriously be this delusional... I mean... what you basically want the game to be is just blind guessing without anything... Without any skill involved... This is ridiculous dude...
Not I would not want that either... I just want some serious counterplay that you can actually learn and react to and do something meaningful that can tell your skill apart from somebody less skilled... Like getting a fast vault at some spots... That's something skillfull you have to put time in to learn... Your idea of wiggling is explained and 5 seconds and can be done by anyone... Just be unpredictable and don't run in foreseeable patterns... Calling that skillfull ist just ridiculous...
I'm so glad the game does not get balanced around your ideas because I would stop playing it imediatly... Your idea of skillfull plays or mindgames is just enraging... Jesus man...
Old spirit could just stand still and you had no idea if she was phasing or not...
Most of the time, you did not need information to know where she was phasing but there was 2 ways to tell if she was phasing. the first is that if spirit is using default skin, her shards would light up.
Spirit when entering phase had phase cycles. When she enters phase, her phase cycle resets. It was just very high-level to know she was phasing but most of the time, this was not required to loop spirit in first place.
As shown by scottjund video who is self-proclaimed "good spirit", he had long chase with survivor. You didn't need information to loop spirit, you just need good predictions which is what spirit was all about.
Spirit moves at 7.04m/s at base whereas the survivor moves at 4 m/s... So let's say you are like 5 m away from her and start running away
5 meter is less then killer lunge range. As I said with pallets. Its about predicting her pathing and use the pallet as mindgame. You force spirit to guess on you like comp player did in the video. Its not suppose to be 100% certain counter-play. that is reserved for broken windows and safe pallets that lack mindgames like entire Gideon meat packing plant map or Garden of joy main building window.
A mindgame usually works in a way where you give the other side a certain information... For example hiding your red light
Hiding your red light removes information from the survivor because red light is essentially wall-hacks on the killer hence its called red glow mindgame because you lose information on the killer's location and need to make blind guess on whether to vault window or bluff window vault. Its just that in many situations, you can take safe option which removes risk from the decision.
This cannot real man... You cannot seriously be this delusional... I mean... what you basically want the game to be is just blind guessing without anything... Without any skill involved... This is ridiculous dude...
opposite, I like the game being difficult for the survivor. Given your description and knowledge about exploits, you want the game the game to be about looping and using cheesy exploits that auto win the killer power. Your description of skill is learning how to drop 20 pallets on Gideon meat packing plant then T-bagging at exit gate.
Your idea of wiggling is explained and 5 seconds and can be done by anyone... Just be unpredictable and don't run in foreseeable patterns... Calling that skillfull ist just ridiculous...
There is definitely a difference between a survivor that has bad predictable movement and good unpredictable movement where landing a hit is difficult. I would argue that Wiggling is one of the highest skill-caps for survivor. Wiggling and dodging skill-shots is about reading your opponent and predicting where their aiming. Its on completely different level compare to looping in term of difficulty. You could say its luck based but the stronger survivors do have high probability in making the killer miss their shot compare players with poor movement. As a result, they win more games because their movement is good.
A lot of windows in the game have these rotational loop patterns where the killer cannot do much about them other then take an arbitrary loop that wastes time. Its same with pallets. a majority of pallet just waste killer time and the killer mostly waits for them to get dropped so they can break it. Looping does take skill but I would say its more knowledge based over skill. wiggling definitely takes more skill then looping. Looping is very reliable strategy to waste the killer's time. This is why its so popular.
Wiggling is not a popular strategy because it is inherently unreliable and difficult. Spirit was difficult and unreliable killer to loop. This is why she was strong. Now she is more reliable to loop because of directional audio cue. its just looping fast killer for 5 seconds. Nothing special. Its why she is played a lot less compare to old days. I remember when spirit had like 10% pick-rate and every game was spirit. Back then, she was a lot more fun to play. far more enjoyable then current iteration. Oh well, Easy come, Easy go.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3265917#Comment_3265917
3 survivors only need 2 minutes and 30 seconds to finish all 5 gens
This just shows how extremely biased you are. Ayrun is doing his fastest escape possible streak with 4man SWF using BNP's and everything to get out as soon as possible in public matches (counts time 1st person leaves the trial). Last time I checked that was 2:34 (maybe they made it in a few seconds less, but it's generally there). This is with 4 BNP's, streetwise, proof, sprint and adrenaline for max speed (they don't use hyperfocus, because it's slower under those conditions). So max genrush max speed and everything produces 2:34. Yet normal time for 3 survivors to finish gens is 2:30. Why should anyone take you seriously?
yes because your not account walking time and healing time. you would be surprised, but a lot of the survivor's time is spent walking and healing. Assuming the killer is successful at applying pressure and winning chases, the game is extended for survivor for every chase they fail. Its just not extended enough for the killer to go for many chases since unhooking takes very little time and grouping healing also takes very little time if survivor are efficient at these activities. Part of skill-cap for survivor is being able to push generators while being pressure by the killer. that is what strong survivors teams are effective at. When a killer is getting looped for 2 minutes, this is 2 minutes where killer is not applying any pressure to the team because he got 0 hits. As a result, you will lose all generators or most of generators and be unable to comeback without slugging or a successful tunnel.
I do not want to talk about the survivor items. the whole streetwise/prove thyself(Old leader) genrushing has been in the game for like 6 years. Toolbox got nerfed to only be accessible for SWF genrushing, but originally they were available for soloq with 180 charge commodious toolboxes. The build re-emerged when felix was released with his build to last perk. Strangely enough, survivors were not using it. They eventually buffed build to last to work multiple times but added small window to recharge the item. It has further been buffed with emergence of hyperfocus+stake out. Genrushing build is nothing new. it has been in the game for long time.
@Archol123 said:
"grunts of pain only happen when your injured. Grass moving? Avoid the grass? Footsteps? Walk as she catch-up"
the point is you did not know when spirit was in phase... So when do you start walking? If you start walking too early she will just go to where you walked and hit you... and if you start too late the scratchmarks will still be there... And since you have no indication whatsoever that she is actually phasing all you can do is blind guess... And the spirit will basically always come out on top of this... Because she can just wait for 1-2 seconds and look what you're doing while you are guessing if she is phasing or not and so on... This was just completely dumb. There was just nothing for you to know if she was phasing or not...
between loops, spirit has 1.5 second cast activation time. Do you ever see trapper just stand still randomly for 1.5 second in middle of the chase? Of course not. Standing still as killer in middle of the chase is silly. You can tell when spirit is going into phase by standing still. You can also estimate her catch-up time. In most cases, Spirit's activation time and her low movement speed is not enough to catch-up to the survivor at base-kit. Hold-w is pretty effective vs spirit. The speed add-on were 5%/10%/15%/40%. At best, your facing 25% extra speed with regular add-on's on old spirit, but old green speed was removed. Now only iri ring does anything particularly useful. After you have seen one of her phases, you can mostly estimate her precise phase distance if you have good understanding of movement speed in this game.
since you have no indication whatsoever that she is actually phasing all you can do is blind guess
Spirit at loops is all about mindgames and predicting her routing. you pre-drop pallets and use pallets as mindgames like the comp player in the video. All the killer are suppose to be about blinding guessing. blinding guessing is a skill. reading your opponents mind is what dbd should be about. not looping ring-round rosy with low/no mindgame loops.
I don't think you can wiggle Blight
You can wiggle blight, its not reliable way to loop blight but it is not suppose to be.
still can't get over the fact that you apparently watched the spirit video and still don't see your mistake... Predropping every safe pallet works against most killers... But against old spirit it did not work reliably... She could even hit you in shack after you dropped the pallet..
Pre-dropping pallet is NOT SUPPOSE TO WORK against any killer but it does. every pallet should have mindgame for every killer. Its not suppose to be 100% safe. its suppose to be unsafe. This is why old spirit was balanced. her power fixed the bad loop design of the game for killer. All the killer should be like spirit.
It does not mean always... It just means that it has good chances to work... And again you forget that old spirit didn't give the survivor any hint what she was doing... You didn't even know if she was phasing or not there was no way to mindgame her because you had no information what she was doing...
that is entire point, a mindgame by definition alternative game within the game(DBD) in which the player plays a game in the mind. The game being played is not on the screen.
The audio is the best thing they could have done for her, makes her way less unfair...
What the audio allows these days is give the survivor a chance to do something skillfull... what the spirit can do with this is just fake one direction and then go the other... She moves at 176% movementspeed and will most likely catch the survivor before he can reach the pallet again. And that exact thing is by definition a mind game...
This is exact definition of not a mindgame. Reacting to what your opponent does is not mindgame. it is reacting. The audio cue gives precise details for where spirit is phasing. there is no point being invisible. you might as well be visible like wraith.
In order create a mindgame, you need two aspect to be true
1) The mindgame does not allow the player to be able to humanly react to the ability.
2) The player who is trying to win the mindgame has a lack of information.
This is why spirit was mindgame. You could not react to her ability because you had no information on her routing. you had to predict her routing. Not listen for her precise routing. The killer has to listen to sound cues as guidance to predict the survivor routing. your entire post is making it seem like this interaction is unfair for the survivor when it is not.
Going back Twins and Victor. Wiggling is mindgame. The survivor has lack of information when the killer releases the pounce and you have to predict where the Victor pounce is being aimed to avoid the pounce hit. your saying twin(victor) is unfun to loop. To me, it sounds like you dislike playing survivor and dislike mindgames in general. Your ideal balance for Victor would be adding a red indicator when victor is aiming at you and having 1 second delay after the killer player releases their pounce ability thus removing any need to wiggle since you would be able to react to his pounce by looking at the big red ! indicator sign. Some games have that where AI has unblockable attacks, but they put big red ! when the enemy is using the attack. This is perfect description of how to remove mindgames. Just put indicator and large activation delay on the attacks. hand-holding game design. Dbd does a lot of hand-holding for survivor but at least its not hand-holding you on ranged attacks. Not yet.
The crouching takes some time to get to the hooked survivor and if you unhook without kicking victor he will just hit you afterwards... Still really boring... Twins is not a bad killer... They are low A or High B tier... they're just sluggish to play... Yeah they play more of a slug game... Which is also kind of boring... So sure change them so they can aim for hooks more.
they're sluggish to play to prevent tag-teaming and zoning with two killers. What is wrong about playing a slug game? Victor would need to apply torment on the survivors and if victor downs someone that is injured, They would need to be sent to torment cages automatically like pyramid head's power. That would reduce slugging and encourage automatic hooking for Twins. I am not exactly sure why survivor take offence in slugging. Slugging is currently not very rewarding and you can often get pick-up for free second chances by your teammates. this is one of reasons why twin is not popular killer. She is not rewarding to play and her strategy currently is difficult to execute. Its hard to keep people injured making it difficult to slug(chain downs)+lack of information to do so. holding victor hostage and abusing lockers is unfun for the killer. Hooking survivor is painful while slugging is unrewarding(for the killer) if the survivor team is effective at countering it. On top of that, you have to be stellar at landing every single victor pounce to be good at twins which can be difficult depending on survivor skill-level in movement. Twin's needs to massively over-perform compare to effort required for survivor to win. Its not surprising that twin is not popular. Just unfun killer to play in current iteration of dbd.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3265934#Comment_3265934
Torment is quite large and it's sometimes hard to get to next loop on it before killer catches you. I would still prefer it to rotten fields. For Thomsons - my favorite out of all the farm maps. Like objectively fractured has more stuff to work with that can be chained. But Thomsons are much more interesting in my opinion. Whole house side is strong. And the weak part still contains pig tree (one of strongest structures) and harvester. Cowshed is strong too. I have no idea how rotten fields could ever be considered stronger then those other maps.
Rotten fields has 3 tile-set in the game, but unlike other maps with tile-set. it has no rng to them. it spawns guaranteed 3 classic jungle gyms. it also spawns Cow tree and centralized shack. Most if not every single filler pallet on rotten field is safe. Loop-wise. its complete pallet break hold-W simulator map. Cow tree, shack, 3 classic jungles, that is 5 guaranteed zero-mindgame god pallets for most of the killer cast. Each of these loop also come with strong window that you greed on. This one of the maps where at low-middle level, bad survivor players who are bad at greeding pallets complain that they'll run out of pallets, but at high-level, the skill expression for survivor looping is off-charts.
Rotten field used to be giant map, but after its realm beyond update, the map is smaller but not in a good way. normally a map being small means that the killer can pressure the map better by having shorter generator patrol routes but in rotten fields, its opposite. Smaller map in case of rotten field = easier gen rush. It has an unfavourable gen spread where every generator is next to some safe strong loop that wastes time so detaching chases is not worth anything.The corn blocks vision of the killer and as result, killer with no stealth capacity are somewhat easy to shift-w before the chase if you understand how killer heartbeat works. Its not favorable 3 gen map either so trying to waste resources without losing generators is almost futile. Killer that rely on line of sight have corn-blind issues.... I hate playing nurse on this map and just about every range killer as well.
The only thing makes rotten field not the most busted map in dbd is low pallet density. If you add like 6 safe filler pallets around centralized shack on this map, this would be one of the worst maps for killer. It is possible to run out of pallets on rotten fields but strong teams with strong generator efficiency paired with strong looping skills make this map nightmare to play on. it is why it had such high escape-rate. All the safe drop-pallet hold-w survivor maps are always unfun for killer to play against.
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@danielmaster87 said:
The degree to which the killer needs it to do well. You're shooting yourself in the foot by playing Huntress without Babushka or Doctor without shock delay reduction add-ons, so those would be good to make base. It's not as if, with this idea, you'd be getting Swift Hunt or Alchemist's Ring base. Just the necessities.
for me, range add-on is more important on doctor. I agree with wind-up on huntress. I think core stats should be base-line. Its just that if power is good at base-line, bad survivors struggle vs the power and complain about the ability being too effective. unfun to play against and so on.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3265912#Comment_3265912
Aura perks don't help you determine if a teammate is going to go down, just that they are being chased
Game sense is irrelevant because even if you 100% know for a fact a gen you are on has eruption, you have to either stop working on the gen until someone goes down (Aka not being productive and giving the killer more time) or work on it and risk being barred from playing the game for 25 seconds (Once again not being productive and giving the killer more time)
It is a lose/lose scenario. Not all SWFs play the game like it's a tournament with constant callouts, because spending half the match saying the words "im going down" is boring as hell lol
Imagine if this game had Old object of obsession with perma wall-hack on the killer. You could counter eruption like SWF. best counter to the perk is looping. they should make the incapacitated AoE in 4 meter radius so that swf cannot avoid the perk. Its like whole blindness problem that @Carth talks about.
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@danielmaster87 said:
It's too big, and the tiles are just... so safe. It's like the devs don't even think of the killer when they make these maps.
Killers? You mean AI that follow you around in giant bright map.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3265644#Comment_3265644
It's rng. You can get good loops, you can get bad loops. What you will always get are several generators, that have only protection of said generator and corn. As I said - for me 4th toughest map in a whole game - and I will gladly pick any other map for this one (except the 3 that are higher on my list).
I mean sure - I can't untangle myself on yamaoka map loops (especially family residence as I somewhat like sanctum's main) so I don't particularly like those too. But I know that is a me thing. On the contrary I consider rotten fields objectively bad map for survivors
rotten field is like top 10 survivor-sided map. its miserable to play as killer. its one of the maps that needs to major nerfs in loop strength. I believe rotten field was once shown to have among highest escape-rates, it was like 3rd most escaped map or something. there is almost zero bad loops on rotten fields. all the loops really stupid strong and auto-pallet breaks when the pallet is dropped. because how dumb the map is in term of loop strength, most killers often just camp basement on that map due to busted pallet/loop design is on that map. Rotten field is one of those maps that auto-plays itself if your good at looping as survivor, really strong gen-rushing map as a result. Fracture cowshed and Rotten fields are main maps that people look for when burning farm map offering for ez mode survivor games. Rancid abator used to be broken when it had a god loop in the middle. Its still really unfair map but its less strong compare Rotten field and Cowshed. Torment creek(?) is above average map. Its strong but not too strong, middle of road map. Thompson house... again used to be another insane map with ton of safe loops everywhere, but in 4.1.0(?), they weakened the map. I would say its above average. Survivor-favoured map, just not as bad some of other maps that this game has.
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@Archol123 said:
I mean at least the crouch tech needs some really good timing i guess... But it seems really strong against those types of killers... The problem with Nemesis is what else are you supposed to but crouch? Randomly juke left or right? Again there is no reaction time to react to him whipping you so... I don't think the billys and blights are missing... Blights hitbox while touching the survivor physically is massive and he can hit you while he cannot even see you to his side... Watch the explanation from LilithOmen for this ... And Billys hitbox is usually somewhat generous so stating they missed is just not true buddy... Especially after the explanation quoting the video description with it having to do with the killers no being able to look down so they cannot hit you with the power...
Ok then please explain to me how do you mindgame a spirit that sees the grass moving, can hear your footsteps and grunts of pain while you did not even know if she was phasing as well as where she currently is? These days with the audio you have at least something you can work with but the old version of her was terrible to go against... Guess her routing great dude... you have no indication what she was doing that 100% a blind guess without anything... That has nothing to do with anything skilled if it is just guessing... The problem with a good spirit is they don't need to see you, they know exactly where you are anyway... Even without the killer instinct thing addon... When even the comp players agree on that topic who are really skilled against spirit and all the other high tier killers I don't think you can go against that... There was even a video Scott Jund did, where he wanted people to show him counterplay to spirit in a 1v1 and basically no one could... He even did it against a comp player and what that guy did was basically drop a pallet every 12 seconds and make the spirit guess but even that did not work reliably... There were chases where he went down in seconds and some where he basically looped him for quite some time, but dropped basically every single pallet on the map... And keep in mind the survivor is a comp player not your average dbd dude that you'll encounter in normal matchmaking...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyQnAlCGRSE
You're not going to make somebody who is somewhat decent at twins miss a hit... It's just not happening often enough to be even somewhat reliable... A god pallet is no argument against that... basically every killer the game needs to break it come on man... I agree twins is somewhat disadvantaged because victor can't destroy god pallets... But let's be reasonable here... how many godpallets do normal maps have? Usually less than 5... So that's not really helping that much either... especially because the Twins player already knows that so he probably will not take a chase to such a god pallet for it to become relevant...
I already agreed on the strong window part... The whole thing we were arguing about was this ridiculous claim about this wiggle stuff... I mean sure it becomes harder to hit than if they were just not dodging at all, but it also does not become hard enough to call this looping or something reliable you can pull off... Before I would do that I would just try to find a stack of hay or some tires or something else round and run around that as I'm 100% certain that this would be far more reliable...
And this hook trap/place victor playstyle is exactly why nobody wants to play against twins, besides other reasons... It's just miserable to go against...
You could have just taken the M1 with charlotte and use victor only to down the survivor... Also you don't have no power during that time... The survivor that has victor clinging onto them does not hear the heartbeat, better than nothing... But this whole thing is basically why you really don't want to give survivors the chance to keep him hostage...
what good timing? crouching is instantaneous action. you can read the killer's animations and react to it. Usually when killers use their powers, their aim is accommodated by understanding their hitbox limit, so crouching to reduce hitbox is really stupid if you can do this in reliable way that turns hits into misses.
I do not agree with nemesis's crouching at windows/pallet tech to erase his range capacity. its too easy. Old billy is about predicting his curving routing. he is usually curving inwards or outwards. most of the time, its inward because survivors when looping usually hug the walls of loop so that they can most efficiently loop around objects to get maximum amount of rotations of a loop. Just side-stepping is sufficient counter-play for billy's chainsaw. Now a days, Billy is rare sighting because his chainsaw has too long of charge time. Billy is too slow in his chainsaw ability to curve survivors that hug efficiently the walls. You can often make it around the corner without requiring the need to side-step his curves.Once again, Line of sight becoming hard-counter to his ability which is bad design. Blight is more complicated billy, but you can wiggle his lethal rush in certain instances, though your better off understand his bump logic to avoid requiring the need to side-step his ability as it is mostly favourable for him to hit you. I am aware of his hitbox and I am certain LilithOmen understand the hitbox as well.
Ok then please explain to me how do you mindgame a spirit that sees the grass moving, can hear your footsteps and grunts of pain while you did not even know if she was phasing as well as where she currently is?
grunts of pain only happen when your injured. Grass moving? Avoid the grass? Footsteps? Walk as she catch-up. Base-kit spirit is so slow that you often outrun her phase-walk if your far enough away from her. You do not need to see her if your far away. You can calculate her catch-up very accurately. Directional audio cue is really stupid now a days for spirit. ruined the character.
He even did it against a comp player and what that guy did was basically drop a pallet every 12 seconds and make the spirit guess but even that did not work reliably...
You're not going to make somebody who is somewhat decent at twins miss a hit... It's just not happening often enough to be even somewhat reliable..
its not suppose to work reliably. If you can always do X and expect Y to occur then doing X every time against the killer is just free auto-win. that is just stupid. Speaking of which, dropping pallets every 12 seconds produced a 2 minute 17 second chase vs spirit. Definitely looks like a broken killer. For reference, 5 generators take 90x5 seconds to do and 3 survivors only need 2 minutes and 30 seconds to finish all 5 gens, so doing 2 minute 17 second chase is 4-5 generators in 1 chase. Its game-losing chase for killer to have this long of a chase. Scottjund video just proves that spirit does have counter-play. She needed no changes. Survivors just cried because they could not adapt to her play-style.
Spirit's gameplay is exactly how victor's gameplay works at pallets. just pre-drop every pallet vs victor and use pallets as mindgames for very strong pallets. The lesser safe pallets, you can try pallet stun victor, but it relies on making reads on his pounces. This whole conversation feels like your complaining that the killer has mindgames and that you need to loop differently in risky way instead of the ultra-easy mode looping that most killers have.
this hook trap/place victor playstyle is exactly why nobody wants to play against twins, besides other reasons... It's just miserable to go against...
are we once again complaining about killer camping? I mean if you crouch, victor does not detect you with killer instinct+with recent buffs to survivor base-kit, you get borrow time base-kit so if victor hits borrow time or hits endurance such as dead hard, he goes on cooldown and you can kick him. Miserable to go against is not an excuse to keep the killer bad.
You could have just taken the M1 with charlotte and use victor only to down the survivor... Also you don't have no power during that time... The survivor that has victor clinging onto them does not hear the heartbeat, better than nothing... But this whole thing is basically why you really don't want to give survivors the chance to keep him hostage...
As you can see with old spirit, the comp player has long chases. M1 Charlotte is a joke to loop. Not hearing heartbeat is irrelevant in most cases for when your in the chase. With survivor keeping victor hostage, your forced to get looped for 30 seconds because you cannot use your ability. Its dumb gameplay design for the killer. Twin's need some quality of life changes to make her more enjoyable to play as for killer. she is too inaccessible to play for the most part in my opinion. the game favours hooking when she favours chain downs. I think remember patrick saying that twin would get changes but it will be in the very distant future. I guess we will see what changes for her in the next year.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3265725#Comment_3265725
Ok so since you obviously have no clue what a crouch tech is and why it is not necessarily the billys fault... Here you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCF-nJQo-dc
Apparently why it works like that is because it reduces the hitbox of the survivor and therefore they cannot be hit properly...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRkOESqVSfE
After seeing this tell me again it's the killers fault dude :D
The comparison to spirit is greatly in my favor because old spirit was not possible to mind game during her power... She had full controll of the chase with good hearing and all you could do was instantly drop the pallet and make her guess... There are many old videos about that topic and the comp players apparently agreed that there were basically no mind games involved only making her guess without much thought behind it...
Even if you do those awkward wiggles... When the killer releases the button the moment you're in front of his thing you will get hit... So your movement does not matter... Also even if the wiggles make him wait a bit... Then victor will just stop his pounce and be right on top of you and just do it again... At some point he will feel confident enough and hit you point blank... The whole drawing does not really matter because you only have like 2-3 seconds of time until he will pounce on you and during that you're not going to make that much sideway movements.
wow, that is as game-breaking as nemesis's tentacle strike getting countered by crouching. I do not think I have really seen people do that against me as demo. Most of these billy and blight are missing their curves/attacks though but if you can do this on reaction and briefly sidestep their attack by calculating their hitbox then just crouch at perfect time to avoid attack, that might have no counter-play for the killer and be really unfair in my opinion. that is robbing the killer of their hits. Your suppose side-step attacks. not shrink your hitbox where you cannot be hit. that is why i dislike nemesis tentacle strike design(when hitting over obstacles), too easy counter-play with no real risk.
The comparison to spirit is greatly in my favor because old spirit was not possible to mind game during her power... She had full controll of the chase with good hearing and all you could do was instantly drop the pallet and make her guess...
Spirit no counter-play, not these thread again. that is why knight in ptb has a visible green spirit with visible outlines for guards. I do not agree. She was possible to mindgame. Her guessing where the survivor is the mindgame. Just because you cannot see her does not mean that she has no counter-play. Your suppose guess her routing. that is whole point.
Even if you do those awkward wiggles... When the killer releases the button the moment you're in front of his thing you will get hit... So your movement does not matter... Also even if the wiggles make him wait a bit... Then victor will just stop his pounce and be right on top of you and just do it again... At some point he will feel confident enough and hit you point blank... The whole drawing does not really matter because you only have like 2-3 seconds of time until he will pounce on you and during that you're not going to make that much sideway movements.
your movement does matter. the easier your movement, the easier you are to hit. If you make your movement hard to read, Its harder for killer player to hit you. As I said in my post, its not about being impossible to hit such that you never get hit by victor. Its about wasting twin's time. Your trying to be as difficult as possible to hit. 2-3 seconds in this game is pretty major. For example, Survivors move at 4.0 m/s. Every second you walk in straight line, your making 4 meters of distance. in 3 seconds, your making 12 meters of distance. that is huge. Every time victor cancels his pounce, your making distance away from Charlotte, so for example, if you successfully dodge 1 victor pounce and purposely do not kick him, you can have like 40 meters since victor has 3 second cooldown for missing. If he misses 2nd time and you kick him, Charlotte is 40 meters behind and has to re-summon victor and re-locate you to continue the chase. Your also failing to consider that extra distance means that you can make it to window or a pallet. For example, if your 40 meters away from Charlotte, You can drop shack pallet and victor cannot hit you because he can't break pallets. He can pounce over them, but if he misses, you can just slide the pallet and he will be stuck on wrong side which is wasting twin's time. Strong windows such as windows with breakable walls also waste victor's time. He is possible loop. He is just not easy to loop.
Part of reason why Twins have long switching time is to prevent Charlotte and Victor from zoning survivor. For example, If your on west side of loop and Charlotte is on East, The long switching time means that Charlotte cannot help victor and Victor cannot help Charlotte. That is why there is clear distinction for sleeping victor. Charlotte has her distinct pose for when she is sleeping. You have to chase with one or the other, not both at same time. This goes without saying that victor is true killer.while charlotte is just there for pallet breaking/kicking gens/hooking purposes.
Twin's is a killer all about being in two places at once but its not two killers co-operating with each other. It's why twin is kinda like hag with traps at hook when it comes to camping hooks. You can m1 patrol like 40 meters away from hook but still have a hag-trap(named victor) that can interrupt unhooks if someone sneaks past although there is small exploit where if you get hit by victor, you can still unhook people with incapacitated if you are close enough to the hook and begin the unhook animation.
I never said I like the holding hostage thing... only that is the best thing to do against twins...
I agree, holding victor hostage is best thing to do but I still think its bs. counter-play should be all about interacting with other side. Not about removing entire options away from the killer by putting their power on cooldown for eternity and rushing gens while your stuck as m1 killer with no ability.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3265555#Comment_3265555
Skill shot powers usually become rough when you're not using them at point blank range dude... When you're not at point blank range it actually matters that you dodge...
I never said I like the holding hostage thing... only that is the best thing to do against twins...
Crouch teching is when you crouch to dodge an attack for example billys chainsaw, blight or demos shred as the decrease in hit box size makes the attack not connect if pulled off properly.
If the survivor has line of sight blockers the killer can still predict the survivor movement and guess where they're going and try to cut them off... How do you use that kind of prediction as an example for why wiggling is supposed to be skillfull but in this case it is not?
And the point of the wesker example does not fit either because you will not be in this situation permanently... But how about when facing wesker or billy (when he tries to curve you) you can decide whether you want to go close or wide when the killer uses their power and by doing one or the other have an impact on the outcome... Not in every situation but in some...
I just tried to find out the speed at which victor pounces at you to compare it to demogorgons shred.. But for some reason it did not find it in the wiki well whatever...
I mean even if spinning does not work against good players, besides that point that even good players can get spun, even though it does not happen often, but then again a good huntress will not miss a meele hatchet so... What I want to say is even if it does not necessarily work against players of equal or higher skill it is still something skillfull to pull of... you had to invest time into learning how to do it and so and you can see the difference... Wiggling will always look the same... And the only way to tell apart "good" or "bad" wiggling is by the result of getting hit or not... But back to the huntress comparisson... a good huntress will only miss a really small amount of meele hatchets and I think the same thing goes for Victors pounce... And in both situations I don't think the survivors skill matters that much...
My point about this whole thing is basically you cannot really dodge it... the projectile (Huntress Hatchet, Slingers Harpoon, Victor, Demogorgons Shred (at a small distance) are just way too fast to reaction dodge... The only thing you can do is try to get out of the line he is looking at and if he uses his attack will lunge at... There is basically no acting and reacting... Effectively... I mean even if the killer player is not directly looking at you they can still just flick at you in the blink of an eye and there is just nothing you can do to avoid that... But let's get in some numbers... Lets say you're like 3-4 m away from the killer
Fully charged huntress hatchet 40m/s (25m/s min) and Slinger has also 40m/s
Demogorgon shred 18.4m/s
You're not gonna dodge that speed at close distance... That's just not a thing... You can try to make a killer use his power preemtively at a window or try to crouch the projectile and get lucky...
But at this distance it is just humanly impossible to react in time... I assume that victor moves at a similar speed as demogorgon, like I said, I couldn't find a number in the wiki so I ll just have to guess... Human reaction time is like 0.2 to 0.3 seconds... Huntress and slinger take 0.1 seconds to hit you... or a bit less than 0.2 seconds with a non fully charged hatchet... Demogorgon will take like 0.217 seconds but then again his shred hitbox is quite huge so it will probably still clip you even if you manage to change the direction by pressing a button... because you had like 0.017 seconds of moving differently...
If the killer aims on the place you're in the moment they use there power you will just get hit... There's no way around it... It does not matter what you do... Wiggling will make it harder but there is no difference in the quality of wiggling whatsoever..
And when there is nothing that you could possibly react to... How is it even skillfull?
Crouch teching is when you crouch to dodge an attack for example billys chainsaw, blight or demos shred as the decrease in hit box size makes the attack not connect if pulled off properly.
I thought crouch tech was when survivors have iron will/off the record and they crouch in the doorway. I sometimes see that as killer when I am walking through shack doorway. It makes me wonder if that guy watches too much youtube highlight reels vs bad killers. Those bad killer clearly do not understand how scratch marks work when entering a doorway.
The killer your describing make no sense. billy backrev his chainsaw and there is technique called chainsaw feathering which is when you 95% your chainsaw to read the survivors movements to get the hit. missing backrev chainsaw as billy is embarrassing. Demo and Blight make even less sense.
I think only three killer you can use crouching in a chase is Nemesis, Huntress(when huntress is throwing across objects) and Deathslinger. Nemesis, you can crouch his tentacle and if there is object in front of him(like a window), your invulnerable to him. Huntress moves at 77% when holding a hatchet which is like 5 stacks of pwyf, so you duck hatchets on certain loops. Slinger is similar. you can duck on certain places if you know he is going fire over a certain obstacle hole.
according wiki. pounce moves at 28.35 m/s which is 708%. wow that is faster then demo charge. I just looked that up as I started writing this post.
My point about this whole thing is basically you cannot really dodge it... the projectile (Huntress Hatchet, Slingers Harpoon, Victor, Demogorgons Shred (at a small distance) are just way too fast to reaction dodge.
Keyword: Reaction. Mindgames are not reactions. They are games played in the mind. your not suppose to react to them. your suppose predict what your opponent will do in advance with no information. Its similar to old spirit.
The purpose of distance is to make killer need to estimate where the survivor is instead of directly look at hitbox of the survivor and releasing button. Its process called leading the shot. It makes killer have to predict where the survivor is going to be instead of where the survivor is on the screen. Your trying to make the shot as difficult as possible to land. Its not about dodging at 100% consistency. It is about reducing the probability that your opponent successfully hits you. that is what counter-play is. its lowering probability of something being effective. Not making it completely ineffective(0% chance to hit) which is what line of sight is.
Low-level survivor wiggling is just swaying from side to side. Its an easy pattern to follow. high-level wiggling is closer to straight line, but its not straight line. its random pattern line that is difficult to follow. The further you are from the killer, the harder it is for the killer to track your movements especially if the movements are erroneous as as purple line. Survivors with good movement are way harder to land hits on compare to survivor with green-line movement. Your just looking at counter-play as every other casual player looks at counter-play. your trying find a 100% certain method that always works to remove the mindgame of the ability when mind games inherently are about uncertainty and probability. Of course, with any probability problem, your always trying to minimize probability and make the probability as favourable as possible for yourself. That is to say, Not all mindgames are equal 50/50's, Players often try to find ways to skewed it to their side(Such as running Toy sword Twins to make it easier to land pounces/lower counter-play.)
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@Archol123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3265330#Comment_3265330
What you're missing here and why it has nothing to do with skill is that killer and survivor might not necessarily see the same thing on their screen at the same time because of latency and so on... The same reason why the hook grab game sometimes leads to ridiculous results... There is no mindgaming in wiggling like crazy...
You mind game when you try to take weird pathing or fake one direction and go the other or try to hide your light or double back or whatever... What you're doing is basically wiggling and hoping the other guy misses... there is no reading in there...
And I don't know where you got this 100% auto win counter play thing from dude... Because counterplay is only supposed to let you do something that can work against the killer... Not something that is guarateed to work... But at the same time it is supposed to be something skillfull... faking a window against demogorgons shred... Crouch teching... even spinning to some degree... proper positioning blocking line of sight with objects, reverse dropping a pallet and so on and so forth... There is plenty of skillfull things you can do in this game... However wiggling is not one of them...
your entitled to your own opinion. predicting where the killer is shooting/aiming is mindgame. Most of the strong killers centralize around skill-shot powers, As a result, It is an important skill-cap for survivor. Victor is skill-shot power. He requires mindgames to defeat and loop. That is why Twin is not weak killer. not in 1vs1. The better twin's player is, the harder it is to loop victor.
You mind game when you try to take weird pathing or fake one direction and go the other or try to hide your light or double back or whatever... What you're doing is basically wiggling and hoping the other guy misses... there is no reading in there...
your hiding your red light and hoping the survivor plays badly. let me flip your statement for the killer. I am hoping that when I play a ranged killer, My opponent just walks in a predictable straight line so I always hit them with my ability. I am hoping for my opponent to have bad movement for me to have 100% accuracy with my ability.
And I don't know where you got this 100% auto win counter play thing from dude... Because counterplay is only supposed to let you do something that can work against the killer...
Sure, wiggling is something you can do against the killer to make it harder for killer to hit you. Holding Victor hostage for 30 seconds which disables Twin's power for ~40 seconds is asking the killer to lose by generator efficiency because the player is being impaired from pressuring the map with their ability. Most of what you named is not counter-play either. Its stuff that does not work vs good killer or is 100% certain to work vs killers. For example, faking demo shred at a window does not work because the demo player can hold their shred, walk up to you, then cancel it or hit shred because it has big hitbox and any player with decent fps skills will get pointblank hit 9/10 times. I am not sure what crouching teching is. Is it crouching at a corner and hoping the killer goes past you? I have seen that gimmick as killer. Just a free hit. Spinning does not work vs good killers. 360's only works for killer who have crap m1 tracking with their lunge attack, low level killer play. I do not know what reverse pallet dropping is but walking in front of the killer is guaranteed hit when your injured. You will not pallet stun the killer. As for line of sight, If your always able to have proper positioning to block line of sight with objects, than killer has no counter-play to survivor's gameplay. For example, If I cannot get an angle with Albert Wesker's Virulent bound within his 2 dashes, then there no play that killer can make to hit the survivor. Line of sight is not counter-play, its denying all gameplay from the opposing side.
You need to be able to make a play as killer for survivor to do a counter-play. In this case, The killer takes shots and the survivor avoids shots by having difficult to hit movement.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3264802#Comment_3264802
Smells more like luck interaction then "skill" one. I don't want to have main looping/dodging ability to be mainly based on a luck. That feels bad both as a survivor and as a killer. I would rather have situations when I am favored and situations where survivors are favored. My task as a killer is creating favorable situations for me and as a survivor wise versa. I feel twins do this already pretty well. So again - all I want for thins is for them to be generally quicker to play - but not really stronger
i am opposite. I like when looping is based off intuition. you would call it luck. I would call it mindreading. wiggling takes a lot of skill from survivor because you need to predict what the killer sees on their screen then make unpredictable movement that is difficult for killer to read. Its not 100% counter-play where you do X and X always 100% auto-wins for you. Its based off mindgames. I do not think twins is a bad killer in 1vs1, but i think twin is hard to play because her 4vs1 is kinda difficult to execute correctly from lack of information, the whole kidnap victor for 30+10 second regrowth(?) and healing hurting her in general. not enough time for her gameplay to go for hooks.
I know i am being dreaming here, but her power would greatly benefit from pyramid head's torment cages. For example if victor downs while injured, you automatically get hooked into a torment cage. in that case, survivor might complain less of slugging, but my intuition with twins is that they were designed to be based off chaining multiple downs and leaving survivors on the floor. Its more of matter of accepting their gameplay and adapting to it. survivor do not like adapting to it and killer's dislike playing her because its not worth stress. I am suggesting some changes that lower her skill-floor and make her more approachable as a killer.
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@Sharpefern said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3264816#Comment_3264816
Depending the length of the rock loop huntress and trickster can line up a shot. But huntress just needs to hit it once where trickster is resetting his loop for 1/3 of a damage.
Huntress Lullaby is because she can do long range damage by landing a hatchet and no indication would be super strong on her. Trickster cannot do that because you get the lovely notification of knives 1 and 2 going into you and you still need to get hit 4 more times
he's doing 1/3 damage because he is designed to be damage over time type killer but when your damage over time type killer, it means you take more time to deal damage. you have to have line of sight almost semi-consistently which would only be possible on those loops if his m/s in throwing mode was 105%-110%. he would have to be slightly faster than the survivor for his gameplay loop to work. it would also fix his main event from being borderline useless. he is fun to play, not a strong killer though.
from my experience, I don't think lullaby really does anything in regards to preventing her from getting long range shots. most of the time, the survivor still gets hit anyway if they're unaware that your shooting at them. I am like 99% certain that lullaby is there to prevent them from being able to use m&a like old deathslinger. i guess its too oppressive. personally I just shift-w a ton against these killers before the chase.
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@Sharpefern said:
He is currently underwhelming in Power Level IMO. Like I really like playing him but I know hes not great. I think his biggest issues is his speed. I 100% understand why ranged killers are 110, however tall rock loops and wall loops are especially bad for trickster because he doesnt have the same advantage huntress or deathslinger have in only needing to hit one shot to damage. If he cant shoot over a loop in alot of cases he needs to bloodlust the pallet because if he lands the 1-2 daggers it will reset the loop because of his slow speed throwing as well as losing bloodlust. All other 110 killers have their power to counter these loops but without trick blades trickster will actually take longer if they try and use their power.
He is stronger in open areas than other ranged killers but I wouldn't say by that much. Mainly because hes only stronger against full health survivors since he can keep throwing without the delay of cleaning a weapon when he injures one.
I think hed be in a good place if he either lost the lullaby so he could sneak up, or became a 115.
huntress is just as weak to rock loops as trickster is. the difference is that huntress can punish pallet drops if she makes the right read. Trickster's can't throw enough knifes in a pallet drop animation. I think trickster is suppose to be like plague where you should be able to hold his knifes in a loop without losing much m/s. Because he takes more hits to down, he should have higher movement speed when in throwing mode because he spends the most time in throwing mode compare to other ranged killers. that's my theory to why he feels slow. That is also why his main event is total garbage because moving at 96 m/s in main event means that you can loop a rock and he can't hit you.
He could have normal terror radius and removal of lullaby, but if you remove his lullaby and turn into normal TR, then huntress should also have no lullaby. Wooden fox huntress would be super funny to play. I would say he's probably above average if your really really good at him like 6/10 but for most killer players, he's just impractical to play. there's just not much reward to playing him. Not enough of advantage when the other range killer is more simple and offers same/higher rewards.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3264748#Comment_3264748
15-20 seconds is ideal because I think there needs to be some sort of punishment for badly using victor because as it is now 6 seconds is just not enough ...
About the wiggling... You can have your opinion on that but I still strongly disagree... Wiggling has nothing to do with skill... It's just random movement combined with whacky hitboxes of survivors... Truly skillfull is different stuff... I always get amazed at the stuff comp players pull of but I basically never see them wiggling around like crazy, maybe I just wasn't watching the right games... So if you have some footage of comp players doing the wiggle to counter twins I'd gladly watch it and maybe even change my opinion.
I don't want a 100% safe way to counter them I just think there should be a more fun interaction than this ridiculous following stuff... I just don't see that as fun or meaningful interaction at all... As it is now even when you're 2-4 m away from victor he will just wait until you run back in his line of attack and then let go and hit you... He still moves at 2.4m/s if I got that right from you so with that much wiggling you really don't make distance on him so it really does not matter how much time he takes to get the hit... But eventually you will get hit unless he gets hasty.
About the wiggling... You can have your opinion on that but I still strongly disagree... Wiggling has nothing to do with skill... It's just random movement combined with whacky hitboxes of survivors... Truly skillfull is different stuff...
wiggling is definitely a skill in dbd for survivor. there's survivor that just go left, right, left, right at exact same distance every time. those survivors are pretty easy to hit. proper wiggling is mix-up's. Its more like left-small right-left-large right-left-left. you wiggle in non-obvious pattern. Wiggling is pure mindgame. Its also assertion of risk vs reward in term of distance. sometimes you have to take risks to move forward for 0.5-1 second in straight line at 4.0 m/s. often the most obvious wrong moves in normal looping are correct moves in wiggling. its all about being unpredictable. Its pretty hard to describe. I would argue it's one of top-survivor skills that is difference between top-level survivor and mediocre survivor. good movement goes a long way to winning games as survivor especially against the projectile-type killers.
I mean if you played trickster or huntress against top-level survivors, there's staggering difference between hitting trickster's knives vs tricky movement and people that just run in straight lines with obvious wiggle patterns. Its same for huntress as well. nobody really plays against twins. If you played Twin's PTB, In PTB of twins, Victor used to move like at 1.0 m/s or something when charging his pounce. He was so slow to the point that you could loop a generator and Victor would not be able to hit you. that is how it became obvious for what his weakness was. He got buffed from PTB. Victor is definitely unique killer to loop. Its hard to compare him to anything. you could compare him to demo shred but its not quite demo shred. demo shred feels something like laser-type hitbox. Victor hitbox from what I remember is something like oval. it is harder to hit victor the further away you are from him but its near guaranteed hit if he is pointblank assuming twin's player is competent at aiming victor's pounce.
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Survivor perk:
Foresight: Reveals the killer aura when the killer is next to a window vault or pallet within 2 meters when within a 10/13/16 meters of the killer.
Killer perk:
Out of breath: Survivors that drop pallets suffer a 7% hindered penalty for the next 3/4/5 seconds.
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@Grigerbest said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3264637#Comment_3264637
Yes, exactly from my point of view about killers "tiers", if a killer can't down survivors in a chase quickly enough, I consider such killers as a weak in general. I actually think that... Main reason to call a killer strong - is when this killer can down survivors in chases within less than 20 seconds.
He's overrated indeed. Like crazy.
the average 2-hit killer downs survivor's in roughly 45 seconds. 45 seconds chases is not enough for efficient gen teams. you usually need like 30 second chases to win, but very few killers have 30 second chase times. 45 second is when survivor fails to loop properly. If survivor is successful at looping the killer, the chases can be 1:30 long or 2 minute long which is easily 3-4 generator chases vs strong teams. you can think what you want about tier's. personally I think most killers can beat low-average survivor teams at base-kit, so just about every killer is like b-tier average if played right but beating best teams is different ball game. time efficiency is needed and dredge is opposite of time efficient.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3264581#Comment_3264581
During that 1 second window you will gain 1.6 m which is basically point blank range so he's still gonna hit you... There is nothing skilled about that just like huntress wiggle stuff is not really skillfull in my opinion... I'd rather have it so the cooldown on victor is longer when he gets kicked... Because right now that little guy respawns in like 6 seconds or something ridiculous like that... So when Charlotte is still close by you really don't gain an advantage there by kicking him because he is gonna be back too soon... I understand that the downtime after downing a survivor and before you can swap to charlotte again is a bit too much, so I think we could keep his cooldown but make it so you can swap immediatly without having to wait for the cd, but maybe keep the cooldown at what it is right now or slightly decrease in case you want to keep downing people.
The problem with holding victor hostage is that it is basically the only thing you can do to delay the twins... Just removing him immediatly will just make it so victor is onto you like 10 seconds later... And then you're in the loose loose situation again... There are some tiles that are strong against him, some good windows for example as I think he does not trigger entity block and some rather round tiles where you can run him around indefinitely but I d rather change the whole thing than making those small tweaks...
So how about we make it so victor must be used from range... When Victor is kicked the cooldown is like 15-20 seconds, and he can be kicked whenever he is close to the survivor...(Sounded stupid to me anyway, why can you only kick the goblin while he is in cooldown?) So no more of this meele range wiggle stuff... quicker swap times would also be nice so people cannot just endlessly run around a stack of tires or something. And when you hit a healthy stuvivor he will still grab onto them but can be recalled after 5-10 seconds... Now you can just get close to him to kick him which offers some sort of skilled play... Victor wants you to get closer to have a bigger chance hitting you, but also does not want you too close so he can be kicked and the same goes for the survivor... Using some line of sight blockers to reduce the distance and so on...
Sure there could still be some improvements on this idea but as it is right now people playing twins will basically never try to hit long range jumps and only go for this boring meele stuff...
how about we make it so victor must be used from range... When Victor is kicked the cooldown is like 15-20 seconds
Absolutely not. 15-20 seconds cooldown is time where the killer player is completely useless. there is zero point in the twin's player staying in Charlotte any more then she has to. Twin's time to down is already not amazing considering that she does not have access to an instant down and has to walk big distances even if the chase is very short. Her time efficiency between hooking and chase-time is abysmal. That is why twin's has to slug a lot. Most killer play the game under 6 hook condition because they only need to 2 survivors 6 times to kill two survivors. Twin's time efficiency on hooking is so bad that that she plays the game off 4 hooks. She kills one person, often by camping(pushing survivors to 2nd stage+tunneling) and then attempts to injure entire team so that victor can chain 3 consecutive downs. After that, its simply a manner of 1 hooking remaining survivors. Longer cooldown does not help on a killer that is time inefficient as is.
During that 1 second window you will gain 1.6 m which is basically point blank range so he's still gonna hit you... There is nothing skilled about that just like huntress wiggle stuff is not really skillfull
1 second is the time before you need start wiggling as survivor. after 1 second, your no longer moving at 4.0 m/s in perfect straight line, your in mix-up jagged patterns. You still gain distance on victor and based off how tricky your movement is to read decides how easy it is for Twin's player to hit you. Wiggling is easily the most skillful aspects of survivor in dbd. In fact, there is large difference between a low-middle mmr player wiggling and high MMR survivor that wiggles in unpredictable pattern. I would also argue that wiggling is most fair mechanic between survivor and killer because it allows both players to interact with one another. in some sense, it is truest form of mind games. Its true 50/50. you either get hit or you dodge.
one of big issues with dbd is that a lot of "counter-play" that survivor ask for is 100% full proof counter-play. Its like god pallets. that's considered counter-play to the killer. that pallet that has 0% chance for you to get hit. I don't want to go into rant about this but expecting 100% full proof counter-play towards a killer power where the killer cannot hit you ever is terrible balancing. Its ideally suppose to be that the survivor an outplay in every situation but the killer can get a hit in every situation but no side gets a 100% hit in any situation. dbd struggles a lot with that where one side is too favoured in one scenario. You get a lot of 100% hit situations as killer and 100% safe situations as survivor. Victor is 50/50, so its very much skill-based match up to loop victor. He's not easy to loop but its still possible.
Just to touch a bit on add-ons, most twin's player use a grey add-on called Toy Sword. For grey add-on, its easily her strongest add-on, it might as well be an iri add-on or purple add-on in term of power-level. Its pretty big to reduce charge time by 0.2 seconds because it means that you have 0.2 less seconds that victor is slowdown which means that your closer to the survivor when completing a pounce. Closer to survivor = Higher probability to get a successful victor pounce. Its still possible to outplay victor with add-on, but victor will be that much closer to you and you will need start wiggling a lot closer then usual. This is just talking about how to play against out in the open. With pallets and windows, its way easier to outplay victor. He can't break pallets and windows do not block since he is not counted as being in the chase.
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overrated killer. he is noobstomper. He gains killer instinct while teleporting to lockers in nightfall, Its anti-stealth mechanic but in stealth in 2022 is not that prominent. Its mostly what new players because of their lack of looping skills. Nightfall block's vision of loops. All survivor above 5000 hours that are at high-level memorize all pallet loops hence blocking vision is irrelevant. Locker teleport is situational as survivor can hear him exit out of lockers. He also has large ambient sounds making him ineffective stealth. His remnant anti-loop can countered by chaining-tile junks tiles. Of course lesser experienced survivors struggle to loop and chain-tiles together. His anti-loop only works if there are no loops for survivor to detached to. As a result, he is strong when you are in the corner of the map as survivor. Ironically, he is like artist where he lacks counter-play when your in the corner of the map but his time to down is very slow, He is generally easy to beat if your team is effective on generators and you drag out the chases properly.
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@Gandor said:
4.8m/s speed. IDK. This alone sounds like unbound victor and go play superpower M1 killer.
Also twins will put you into loose-loose scenario. You can kick victor and send charlotte to overdrive and be screwed, or you don't kick victor and play against 6m/s killer until he hits you.
Overall I don't like your suggestion one bit.
As I recently played twins quite a few matches, all I feel is needed to make her feel good is to reduce swapping cooldowns. This will already make her feel much better. It's not even a thing of directly buffing her. I don't care about that one. She feels plenty strong already. It's just so not fun to wait for all the swaps all the time.
one of big problems of twins is the ability for survivor to kidnap victor for 30 whole seconds. there's no real punishment for doing so and it makes killer have a near 40 second cooldown her only ability that separate her from other killers. The reason why he suggested 4.8 m/s is because he is trying punish the survivor for kidnapping victor.
Because the game is 4vs1, just because one person cannot do generator for 30 seconds does not mean other 3 survivors cannot do generators. Twin has no mobility when in charlotte form, so when survivor kidnap victor, your stuck with no power.
I think its just better to be direct about that problem and just make it that twins can recall victor right away instead of giving m/s buff or hindered penalty for the survivor kidnapping victor.
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Also twins will put you into loose-loose scenario. You can kick victor and send charlotte to overdrive and be screwed, or you don't kick victor and play against 6m/s killer until he hits you
I think you wildly misunderstand how to play against victor. Victor is something like demogorgon shred. You can't dodge it pointblank, you need distance. you do not try to pointblank dodge victor. I think that's biggest mistake that survivor try to do vs Victor. A strong twin player will 100% hit you almost every time if you try 360 pointblank victor. You need distance. Victor's pounce is something like a baseball arc pattern. you need utilize victor's charge time which is 1 second by default. When victor is charging, his movement speed is reduced to 2.4 m/s so you make distance as survivor as he charges his pounce. He cannot hit you at all even if he is right next to you until full 1 second charge time has elapsed. The more distance you make, the more travel time the pounce has. When the full 1 second has elapsed, you start wiggling in unpredictable manner similar to how you play against Huntress hatchets or deathslinger's harpoon gun.
Its not lose/lose scenario. its skill-based interaction between survivor and twins. Looping victor revolves a lot on in-taking risk. When victor misses a pounce, you want to make distance from charlotte player. Once you make enough distance, if you make victor miss and Charlotte is really far away, like 30-40 meters away, then you should kick victor.
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I don't really twins at all anymore. so I cannot really comment too much on her but when I was playing her. I think one issue that twins suffers from is lack of perk synergy. there is no perk in the game that grants mangled or reduces healing speed passively in the game. Twins need survivors to be injured because it allows victor to go on slugging rampage. I think victor should apply mangled on his attacks. it would help twins to keep people injured. Victor also has access to bloodhound perk which helps him track injured survivors.
Another reason why I think Twins does not get played a lot is lack of information when using Victor. Out of all killers that I have ever played, I found twins to be one of most information-reliant type killers because you need know where survivors are in order to chain downs. One of popular slugging perks to gain information is Infectious fright. The problem is that infectious fright does not work Victor because Victor has no terror radius. You need a lot of foresight with Twins to play them and I think skill-cap is too high for most players to use them. To lower skill-cap, I think victor should grant killer instinct in 32 meter radius if he downs a survivor. It would help lower skilled killers in lower brackets in playing twins because they would have information to chain downs more easily.
In conclusion I suggest these 3 changes
-Decrease max time required to recall victor from 30->10
-Allow victor to apply mangled status effect when inflicting a health-state of damage until fully healed into the healthy state.
-Allow victor to see survivors within 32 meter radius after putting a survivor into the dying state(3 second of killer instinct).
I think these 3 would be solid base-kit changes to make improve twin's gameplay experience. Overall I think twins suffers from the fact that most of the game relies on hooking survivors but Twin's long walking time to pick survivors up after downing them makes them inefficient hooking killer. She suffers from slugging syndrome. Bleeding out survivors takes too long for twins and its not exactly time efficient strategy to win. If slugging had more incremental rewards similar to hooking, Twins would really good killer. She takes too much time to hook survivors and its difficult for her to win through pure slugging because survivor have too long bleed out timer to win just purely off slugging. As a result, Twins ends up playing somewhat of hybrid strategy between hooking and slugging.
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@FinestFantasyVI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3263053#Comment_3263053
I dont play survivor much, but this is a day for me. And I even included my own build. This is from yesterday and the top 2 ones are from today this morning. But for contrast since I play killer more, I have kept track of what survivor perks I get when I play killer, so I included those too.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/1E1H8Z5JXUP2/stats.png
Since I have the Trickster texture pack, I wrote down all the perks feautured here and how many times they showed up:
Thrilling Tremors 2
Call of Brine
Darkness Revealed 4
Iron Maiden 2
NOED
Furtive Chase
Pop Goes the Weasel
BBQ
Territorial Imperative 2
Beast of Prey
Iron Grip
Spies from the Shadows 2
Im All Ears
Claustophobia
Bitter Murmur 2
Bamboozle 2
Brutal Strength
Ruin
Lethal Pursuer
Call of Brine
No Way Out
Sloppy Butcher
Deadlock 2
Starstruck
Jolt
Whispers
This is a long ass post, but yeah, the meta aint so bland. Maybe on your side it is. But not here
its because your at low mmr. at high mmr, he is right. you just exclusively see deadlock, pain res, call of brine, overcharge, eruption with some other killer perks usually oriented around end game, m1 chase plaster fix perks or information type perks.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3262508#Comment_3262508
So the introduction, no, the buff of this one perk suddenly allows the killer the time to go around kicking all the gens and still win? I swear nobody thinks of the killer pov of this perk, or any perk for that matter. "JUST kick the gens."
its just like pain res, "just hook the survivor".
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3263042#Comment_3263042
That's true. Truly good teams just split up and slam gens while you chase one down, but when running this add-on combo I always have two pairs of portals directly next to each other. Port from one to the other and you see all the survivors and can instantly start to hunt one down. Also the 7s undetectable can lead to a gen grab every now and then, which massively puts you ahead of the curve.
It's funny when you see someone entering a locker or hiding in the basement and you just sniff them out there with then barely realising what's happening due to the relatively long undetectable.
Thebest thing about Shred is that it just loads fast enough that you can hit suevivors every time you run them in shack from the windows outside to the door and back: charge shred just before reaching the door and release once you come around, never misses, most don't know about this.
na that depends on distance. if your just far enough away from doorway, you can force a 50/50 where demo has to commit to shred at window. he does induce near force pallet drop if you are already at the doorway though. One thing I always wondered for demo is whether demo would be strong killer if his shred had 0 cast time. As-in, you just press shred button and demo instantly shred's in a linear direction. Would that be overpowered at 115% m/s or would he need to be 110 m/s? I bet the survivor opinion would be something like: Demogorgon is new deathslinger! /s
@Ayodam said:
Demogorgon is rare for the obvious reason (no longer available for purchase). But it is a solid A-tier killer per Otzdarva. It’s pretty strong with its Iri add-ons. Very tough for solo queue survivors, which make up the majority of the survivor playerbase, to deal with. But not unbeatable.
otz puts demo at B-tier. he is generalizes the killer using grey-green add-on as base-kit in his list, though sometimes he posts his opinion on with killers having the best add-on's if you ask him.
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@UnluckyDucky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3263167#Comment_3263167
I think my biggest gripe is that I was de-pipped for being face camped. It seems extremely unfair to a player to be punished for a tactic like facecamping. Like i wasn't bother about the face camping because I knew as a whole the team would "win" even if I didnt escape so I was doing my part and just making the hook phase last as long as I could make it go. But it sucks to be caught out early game and punished with a depip when all the killer did was literally just stare at me and they get a pip-up as a reward.
instead of going down as survivor at 5 generator, try going down at 2-3 generators. Like that, your teammate can finish gens and the killer will lose for camping 1 spot. You will die but your entire team will escape.
The depip problem is issue with old ranking system and current ranking system, its because dev balanced it off 1vs1vs1vs1vs1vs1 instead of team-based system. they're still punishing you for dying in upcoming system but that is its own thing. the emblem system was never updated to reflect team-results. you can largely ignore emblem system depip's towards facecamping. its not relevant but if you play a lot of games and you on average pip, you will eventually get to rank 1 because not every killer with facecamp depip you.
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I would not say so. I would say it opposite. its the buyers that are obsession with sex appeal. supply and demand. bvhr sells cosmetics based off what the popular demand ask's for. for example, if feng is a popular character and everyone buy's feng cosmetics, bvhr will make more feng cosmetic because its smart investment. its same with skimpy clothing and female characters, if skimpy clothing female survivors sell, then it is smart choice to make more skimpy clothing on female survivors. its why people sometimes meme about shirtless myer's because they want to buy a male survivor/killer with a 6-pack appearance. the cosmetic they make are based off the trends of what the player buys.
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he is too weak to pre-drop pallet strategies and hold-w strategies. he is only worth playing if you use his iri add-on(leprose lichen) which grants global aura reading upon exiting a portal. it allows him to play more tactical and strategic in his approach to attacking. The shred is breaks pallets too slowly that survivor gets to the next loop. if survivor greed a pallet, it is possible to get hits at loops but overall, its survivor mistake for him get hits at loops.
@dugman said:
- Demo hasn't been on sale for a year. That alone cuts into his usage. (Sure, not everybody started playing over the last 12 months but it's not a negligible number either.)
- Wesker in particular is pretty similar mechanically to Demogorgon and is quite popular, so there are presumably a lot of people who used to play Demogorgon more often that now either play Wesker instead or split their time between the two.
I own both killers and i do not really play demo that much. i prefer playing wesker over demo. I assume its same for everyone else that owns him.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3262756#Comment_3262756
Qh yes, of course.
You probably liked old DH too huh
you could at least say something more constructive. I am just saying that eruption does have counter-play. The killer is possible to defeat.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3262221#Comment_3262221
It stops you from doing anything for 25 seconds.
It kinda needs to have some sort of counterplay for having such a powerful ability,
It has counter-play. its called finishing generator and being successful at the chase. The perk requires the killer to kick a generator and it awards 10% regression and refunds their time spent walking+kicking a generator. Its like survivor want to go down in 30 seconds chases and still escape every trial.
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3262273#Comment_3262273
This change wouldn’t affect solos, and would fix the complaints that SWFs aren’t affected as much by the perk. It would bridge the gap between solos and SWFs in a healthy way, which is by bringing down the power SWFs get with voice communications.
your suggestion is similar to what i suggested on the perk which is AoE incapacitation so swf cannot rob the killer off their perk value. your not suppose to be able to avoid the incapacitation.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3261085#Comment_3261085
Baboozle, corrupt, deadlock and i am all ears is fine build that just isn't meta, because specifically regression perks are that much stronger.
And there are many other fine perks that could substitute this regression meta
there are many other fine perks that could substitute this regression meta
your insane.