Devil_hit11
Devil_hit11
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
What I don't understand is that they're so inconsistent with it.
Sadako, a stealth killer, gives a warning to survivors.
Spirit's phasing/vacuum sound? No visual warning.
Victor? No warning. This is despite his shrieks even being considered a lullaby by the game.
Dredge in Nightfall? Nothing (he's UD, but similar to Sadako, he has a lot of ambient noise that makes him easy to hear coming within around 16m)
Spirit and Dredge should give warning. that sounds like over-sight. i believe spirit was suppose to have dust in phase-walk because of hearing impaired. Its still silly that she has directional audio cue for stealth character but it is BVHR. Dredge should have 16 meter Lullaby.indicator.
@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3430466#Comment_3430466
It's so sad they are ignoring their new killers after they released them.
Sadako has a lot design issues. But yet, they are not giving her anything. And actually they nerfed her with visual TR.
how could they buff the #1 killer in kill-rates across all MMR. cough cough.
justified nerf /sarcasm
If only BVHR balances around killer gameplay and not numbers.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3430142#Comment_3430142
This is a non argument. You're using the rare occasion of toxic swf teams who are blatantly griefing a killer and refusing objectives to say nothing should be done about it. You're also ignoring the fact that I never once said remove the bleedout so even if a team did do this, they would still eventually bleed out. I'm not asking for infinite recovery without consequence here. Survivors would still have to fully recover and escape the situation before a full bleed out. So no, your excuse is not a justifiable reason to ignore this.
how would unbreakable help you in this situation when two survivors are alive? The killer is purposely being toxic and slugging you to extend the game. The finisher mori would fix killer being toxic to survivors. Unless they majorly make bleed out more of threat for survivor, I do not understand why survivor would be getting unbreakable to their kit.
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@Gandor said:
I like the idea. Oni's iri don't feel like iri addons at all.
About other killers - Freddy and Pyramidhead always come to mind considering bad addons (in general). This includes their iri addons too. But I am certain there will be many more killers like this.
I tried running the add-on's and they are not that bad. the problem is that Oni's base-kit is too weak for me to not run his stat increase add-on's. I would rather run Top scalp knot, Akito crutch, Lion fang and Splitter hull as Oni over his iri. I think if they made top scalp knot, Akito crutch and Splitter hull base-kit and removed his -7 second penalty for putting a survivor into dying state, then I would use his iri add-on's.
His base-kit would be good enough to play add-onless as Oni at that point vs all levels of play similar to Blight. Oni base-kit vs good player is too weak to not run his best add-on's currently.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3428272#Comment_3428272
Oh definitely. Power creep and stacking is an issue on both sides. I just went with the first example I thought of.
I believe OP is pointing is talking about instant down aka pinky finger clown and tombstone myer's. Killer that get carried by add-on's. Blight doesn't carried by Alchemist ring, Alchemist ring just adds little more power to blight. Blight's is solid with no add-on's.
I think its more problem with perception. Tombstone myer's should potencially be be base-kit because it makes Myer's a lot more challenging to defeat as the killer at base-kit has very little to offer that is unique. Same is true with Pinky finger clown. Survivor are too allergic to challenge that putting these add-on's base-kit to killer power would be too strong as perception of instant down and instant-kill is too strong for casual survivor audience. Too hardcore. As a result, I do expect pinky finger to get more nerfs such as 1 bottle permanently with 0 buff compensation to the killer. It is not question if, it is question of when.
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@AhoyWolf said:
A few months back BHVR made a change to the Undetectable Status Effect for every Killer, this change being the slow fading effect to simulate the Killer loosing interest in a Survivor and going away to any instance of this effect.
Yet this had unintended effect on certain Killers, if the Demogorgon doesn't teleport far enough from Portal A to Portal B, you can just hear his Terror Radius travel while he teleports, slowly fading away, which as you can guess renders Demo's Undetectable Status Effect completely obsolete.
I think this should be reverted on some Killers.
they also need fix his screen tearing glitch when going through portals. your suppose to see clear-red as you fly through portal but it flashes black randomly. it is little disorienting and that graphic error has been in the game for like 1 year and half.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
I personally think people need to accept that for everything that's in DBD, there is bound to be something that someone doesnt like.
For some people, they really do not like camping, and it's understandable as to why, nobody wants to sit there and do nothing... for both Survivor and Killer.
However, I think we need to put our big boy/girl/person pants on and have this discussion.
I remember a few months back, people were talking about how a "Trapper Sack (Addon) Basekit" suggestion someone posted would promote camping, and for awhile it sparked discussion... this was back when Trapper got their rework... that felt a long time ago, dang.
Anyways, a common sentiment was "this will promote basement camping" but I really feel like people forget that basement to begin with is already a strong area to camp. Most killers that camp the top of the stairs can for a one for one, and with many Killers with certain perks and addons can already defend basement with ease.
I just find it weird how people do not like the idea of buffing something, that is bad, because it "rewards camping" when the game already has a ton of things that reward camping. Plus, if camping is the "issue" here, and the one thing holding characters back from being buffed, then why not just, ya know, "fix" camping itself?
I feel like people really beat around the bush with this since people would rather fix everything around the issue instead of solving the issue itself.
Its because when you buff something, the optimal gameplay will become stronger. A great example is kicking gens in dbd. Kicking gen in DBD is very unrewarding as 4x slower regression is almost meaningless when you go around kicking gens map-wide. When regression of kicking gens increased, It did not promote kicking more gens and moving around the map. It promoted stays in 1 spot and 3 gen with extra regression rewards.
Its kinda same idea with trapper. Trapper is camper. He wins by camping therefore buffing him will improve his camping play-style to win.
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@Krazzik said:
An idea I've had for a while to try and make spreading out hooks more rewarding for killers. Basically a survivor repairs gens slower the more hook states they have. Maybe 20% slower repair speed for one hook state and 40% slower for two hook states.
This would at least give the killer -some- kinda reason to not just tunnel because even if they go after someone else, gens are getting done slower now.
Now there's certainly some issues with this. Firstly it doesn't actually stop tunneling and some people will just keep tunneling. Another possible problem is that if the killer stacks a bunch of gen slowdown perks, it might be overkill if like all survivors were on death hook.
I'm curious what people's opinions on this idea are.
dying light inflicts 3% debuff every time you hook a survivor. its already a perk but its garbage because 1 person is immune. the perk boosts healing speed for some reason and the reward is not worth it. Its already perk in the game but nobody uses it. too many negatives for no reward.
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@1ettuce said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3427614#Comment_3427614
I mean yeah all good things, except deathslinger demogorgon nemesis and knight don't need buffs or stbfl
yes they do. they also needs buffs individually speaking but BVHR doesn't do those.
survivors health-states and second-chance is way too strong in dbd for base-kit killers. for example a single endurance or extra health-state is 20 seconds of killer catch-up. 20 second of running forward for killer is 40(~46 total) meters of distance. Most maps are like 120 sqrtm^2 so this is like 33% of the map in running distance. If I as killer commit to 6 total chases where a survivor is healthy, I am wasting 120 seconds of total time just walking forward. 120 second across 3 survivors efficiency on generators is almost 4.5 generators worth of progression. The total time you need to finish all 5 gens is 2 minute and 30 seconds across 3 survivors being perfectly efficient. You can lose nearly 100% of killer generator objective from just holding-W from health-states. This is not taking account into window looping and pallet looping/pallet breaking.
I do not get how you are expecting killer to NOT tunnel when the killer is losing 100% of their objective in 6 chases from running forward. Spreading hooks between 4 players where average is 2/2/2/1 with +1/-1 on total hook count amounts to 6-8 hooks and then killer also needs 3 extra hooks to fulfill hook kill condition of 3 kills. total amount is 10-11 hooks. If killer is losing to just hold-w from health-states from 6 hooks, then there is no way that killer can fulfill 10-11 hooks when survivor is playing optimally.
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In my opinion, survivor's sprint burst needs to be nerfed to 1.25-1.4 from 1.8 and killer hit recovery needs to be buffed across board to roughly 2.25 seconds. STBFL should be nerfed accordingly from 5% per stack to 2% per stack which should amount to 1.9 hit recovery at max. Hold-W from health-states should not make killer instant-lose and total time for hold-w should be around 10-14 seconds at max. Not 24 seconds like pre-6.1 and not current 20 seconds. The only form of gaining large distances should be exhaustion perks and even these are heavily debated topic as many players also want to nerf exhaustion perks as well. The bad players that try to 360 killers and the survivor with inefficient movement will go down in 5 seconds. The weaker the player is at looping the faster they should go down. I am sure it will look like nerfed decisive strike where people go down 5 second after hitting decisive strike but this is how killer down potencial should be when the opponent plays poorly.
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3426361#Comment_3426361
What about if its honing stone or lengthened jaws? The health state resets when they free themselves with either of those addons..
likely pinhead problem. normal power works just fine, add-on makes it more complicated to code. probably got lazy with it. Not like PWYF trapper is any good anyway.
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big nope. that is main strength that trickster has over huntress and slinger. Its not even much of an advantage because while huntress does go on cooldown, her m/s reduction on successful m2 is around ~93% which often allows her to m2->m1 in many situations if she hits survivors pointblank. Deathslinger has to use save the best for last to equalize. The other killers can get close enough to trickster leaving him with little upside.
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@Clockwork_Enigma said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3426300#Comment_3426300
"Except those actions don't lead to Survivors being damaged.", did you NOT read what I just typed?
- Trapper trapping a Survivor will almost always lead to an injury unless he uses one add-on. It's guaranteed on trap.
- Plague applying Broken still INJURES the Survivor in the same way any other Killer hits someone.
The post I made complaining about them making it so that Knight loses tokens is because it's horribly inconsistent. Plague can directly injure a Survivor while Trapper can indirectly injure a Survivor and NEITHER of them had PWYF changed.
There's a problem when you can't follow your own rules established, you know?
they are following rules. the perk specifically states basic attack and special attacks.
Trapper placing trap is not special attack. there several actions in the game that are not special attacks. Plague is not green puke is not counted as special attack. They only count special attacks if special attack directly leads to health-reset. Not health-state loss, health-reset. What that means suppose you 99% a heal, If the attack would reset your 99% heal into 0% then it counted as an attack. Basic means m1 and special refer to m2.
Plague does not do that. She applies status effect called broken and broken is status effect that makes you unable to heal and put you into injured state. Only Plague's red puke is counted as special attack because it actually does damage and inflicts health-reset. Trapper trap is also like that. If you enter trap and you are freed from trap either by luck or teammate, it does not change your health-state. that is why its not counted as special attack. There are many other actions that are not counted as attacks. Like blight rushing into a wall is not a special attack. Stalking on either Myer/GF is not counted as an attack. The description specifically says special attack. Not all power activation's.
It is consistent to what is written. It is just that there is no definition or description in game to define the vocabulary.
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@Chordyceps said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3426213#Comment_3426213
I don't think it would be too strong, but it would still be difficult to get value from it when starting a chase with a survivor that's already injured.
they just need remove obsession stimulation from it. The perk could read as - Gain 5% haste for 10 seconds after breaking a pallet-. I think on-hit obsession switch could be different perk. I would probably buff Remember me to switch obsession on-hit because it would pair well with Rancor.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
This perk is not exists anymore for solo players but it actually buffed for SWF players.
It was terrible change.
for once I agree but it is what it is.
@Sonzaishinai said:
I find the reverse to be true tbh. It's improved for solo's but significantly weaker for swf
It does happen that you go in the boon and nobody comes to heal you while nobody is on gens either. But that's honestly typical soloq hell shenanigans. They probably wouldn't have healed you if you were right next to them cause they are to busy opening 3 chest for the archive or something.
There is also the flipside where injured teammate go to the boon area while 2 others are on gens who are 75% each and the third is getting chased around main for 2 minutes already. Sorry but those people need to get the game sense that at that point grouping up to heal is not the play
Thing is if you have a decent team it helps you coordinate heals with the aura reading.
Swf on the other hand has that coordination by base. They can meet up and heal anywhere.
They don't need to spend 14 seconds setting up the boon. And the 8 seconds per heal the boon would give is made up most of the time by not having to travel to a specific location. Also a lot less risky.
Swf can use it to good effect sometimes ofcourse but not much more then solo's and they are honestly better of with 1 or 2 people running we'll make it instead
If there is one more change i would like to see to CoH it would be that injured survivors in the boon see all other survivors aura. Then you'll atleast know if nobody is coming
strange, i think its kinda reverse. we'll make it is good for soloq because it needs very little coordination. You unhook and heal under hook. Often its within the player who running we'll make it to calculate when he activates the perk and thinks the perk should be used. Like if a killer is 50 meters away from hook, the player can estimate how long heal will take by the time killer returns the hook if he returns to the hook. The perk pretty simple to use.. and the rewards are not that great but... at least its health-state healed Those aren't too common in soloq... without med-kits.
COH requires finding totem and it supposely has more reward then we'll make it because it has no timer. the boon have no timer. so the perk's healing speed is active all the time. in my experience, if SWF were using COH, they were often using it to bodyblock me in chases. Other then that, they didn't really need perk because they often have such potent gen efficiency that healing is kinda meaningless when your winning games super fast. I don't think the perk is worse or better at that. I imagine its about the same for SWF. new version has faster healing but you need two people to do it. Old version allowed 3rd person to stay on generator while other player self-cares to go for bodyblocks. So it is similar for SWF while being universally worse for solo. I don't really run anymore. it requires me to babysit the totem and babysit entire team. The whole reason I run healing perks is to NOT babysit the team and spend less time healing...
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@notyarbllewe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3424856#Comment_3424856
They definitely need to change Condemn-Only Sadako and then buff Base Sadako, but I'm not sure how they'll change her. Almost any killer is actually like that: they can keep slugging each survivor over and over until they die on the ground or DC. It's sweaty play, and that works when the killer is more skilled than the survivors.
And I think Sadako is still weak overall, even with the Condemn playstyle. It's still very hard to knock people down when they're skilled. She may need a small buff to her chase kit.
if you do not demanifiest i.e stay uncloaked, this add-on provides you with oblivious when in 8 meters of TV. you won't hear lullaby and she will have no terror radius. your suggestion is an add-on except it has drawback which is that when TV is deactivated, the oblivious is disabled.
Sadako relies on survivors who are bad at looping m1 killers and have no situational awareness of her lullaby or the audio cue that plays when coming out of television. The killer is effectively balanced off new/very bad survivors. All her variables are super safe from down to her 100 second cooldown TV'S to her flickering invis at loops chase power.
according to wiki, these are her invis numbers. supposedly if you combine her cloak+linger invis, the total invis time is 1.75 seconds. that is nowhere need near enough invis time to do a mindgame. On top of that, decloaking slows sadako's m/s down so chaining her invis is impractical. Its mostly case of under-tuned chase numbers paired with directional lullaby being invis at loops pretty pointless. Like I said its balanced for weak survivors. Funny aspect is people still complaining about her even though the killer is m1 loopable.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3425200#Comment_3425200
I get that it's a subjective thing, different tastes and I respect that, I just don't understand what's fun about playing SM.
Having played her for the adept and the recent tome challenges, I've come to the conclusion that she's boring to play no matter if you're winning or losing.
I don't see what there is to master, your power does everything for you.
It protects generators for you, it alerts you what gens are being worked on, it alerts you when people are countering your power, it shuts down basically any loop in the game forcing the survivor to leave. It gives you some stealth (For some reason????) and It speeds you up when survivors mess with your power, making chasing as an m1 killer a bit easier
To top it all off she doesn't even have a fun power to use in chase - moving slightly faster is not a fun and engaging power. It's a lazy bandaid fix.
It feels to me like some people are acting like SM is a lot more complicated and deeper than she really is. A power having lots of things and being needlessly complicated doesn't mean it takes a lot of skill or mastery to use.
its simple, a lot of m1 killer are so bad to the point that moving 5% faster, i.e 120% m/s is respectable power. The loops for m1 killer are so safe for experienced survivor loopers that there is zero point in playing most of m1 killer cast. All that m1 killer can do is pallet break simulator. Skull merchant deletes bad pallet design by just 3 gen stalling and breaking every pallet until its dead zone.
Just for example, what am I suppose to do as freddy when it comes to chasing survivors around the map. His snares slow him to 100% when placing a snare and he has merger 15% hinder for 3 seconds. Pointless anti-loop where pre-drop pallets and camping long pallets is free win.
What do survivor mains like Pulsar expect? Do they expect the killer to chase you on Garden of joy god window loops and press space-bar simulator for pallets? Its more boring to play pallet break simulator for killer then it is to 3 gen and get w's on skull merchant.
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it has too many restrictions for survivor to use it. the big two restrictions are:
1) it requires to be healthy to use it
2) you need to be on death hook to use it.
If a killer is tunneling you off hook, the only way you can use this perk is with red syringe. I think if they removed healthy condition and just made the perk cleanse exhaustion & make the perk not require death hook but instead activate whenever you are unhooked like Dead hard. SB+Bloodrush would be complete meta. The perk is over-balanced to make sure it does not get out of hand. You can see that by the perk also having once per trial condition on top of all these other restrictions.
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@Shroompy said:
Not really but I was already writing this post when I found out that this was actually a bugfix.
It did have a niche use of pairing up decently well with other Undetectable perks or add ons. How you may ask? Well say you had Undetectable from Tinkerer and it was just about to run out, standing still would keep your Undetectable active even if you didnt stay still for 2 seconds.
This was actually pretty fun to use on a killer like Nemesis who could get easy access to Undetectable thanks to Serotonin Injector or Sadako who would be completely silent when Manifested.
At least it was fun while it lasted
you can still use it. you stand for 2 seconds while being undetectable. very pointless perk. The only killer that I have ever seen use this perk is insidious bubba.
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distortion is one of the better stealth perks on survivor. Recovering tokens is not that difficult and it is very likely that you can block 90% of aura effects in the game apart from very extreme 4 aura reading perk builds or Vanity/Scratch Mirror Myers.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3423146#Comment_3423146
This just shows that Spooky looses to that group. Check his meyers play with tombstone piece. Sorry, but he outright plays it bad. 1, he did not collect his 3 stacks of PWYF 2, he repeatedly starts his T3 when not close to survivor. It just shows he does not ever play tombstone piece meyers (understandable - he's huntress main and plays some good ghostface. He just does not play those lower-tier killers enough and if he does, he plays for fun (which can be seen by the way he plays even in that video) - against literally one of the best comp teams). Very similar thing to pig with him commiting to a bad chase. That video is just an example of what would happen if you take average player and pit him against expert in their own category. I could show you a video where perkless itemless killer just destroys group of 4 clueless beginning survivors (no matter their loadout) and it would say just about the same thing.
Another thing - it's not even fair comparison. You are comparing strongest stuff on one side to weakest stuff on the other. I can do the other thing and pick 4 random survivors that don't play together with no comms and pit them against nurse or blight or spirit or .... to show just about the same result. How fair would it be to then say survivor does not stand a chance against 70% of killer cast? Ayrun actually streamed his P100 showcase where 4 survivors no comms played against P100 killer (back when those were fresh and there were few players that had P100) - sometimes clown won in those settings. Sometimes nurse lost. Meaning the game is very much playable in that setting.
I think your post is full of all the misconception and all the other stuff. Also it talks about top-tier play (something 99,9% of player will never experience) without taking into account average play (where these "weak killers" have massive killrates according to stats provided by devs). Meaning you are arguing to buff everyone to be feasible in 0,1% case where in 99,9% cases these killers just roll (and in 0,1% there are other killers that still roll). Don't you feel like that is quite unfair? Do you think the game would be OK and alive if 99,9% of survivors would have 10-20% escape rate?
Another thing - it's not even fair comparison. You are comparing strongest stuff on one side to weakest stuff on the other.
what is not fair about it? the survivor playing poorly is player skill issue. The killer having trouble competing is game issue. The majority of killer struggle to put any fight vs solid survivor players. The survivor can always become better. The killer cannot change outcome regardless if they get better.
Don't you feel like that is quite unfair? Do you think the game would be OK and alive if 99,9% of survivors would have 10-20% escape rate?
Your saying telling me that it is unfair when you play badly as survivor to lose? your first post is saying that spookyloop did not play killer correctly so he should lose. Now on survivor side, your telling me that when survivor plays badly, they should win. Do you not see double standards in your post? Assuming 99% of the player-base plays survivor badly, then yes I think the escape rate should be low.
One thing I would like to point out though is that every survivor should have equal opportunity to play well. To this, I want to talk about hens explanation at the start of the spooky video in regards to clock system.
Hens explains that the way survivors communicate their position is that they use clock system to indicate where survivor is on the map. For example room 2 is 2 o clock. this big part of generator efficiency for strong teams because it allows them to properly push correct generators and out maneuver most killers tactically on the map. I do not want get into too much detail into survivor gameplay because playing survivor well on macro level is complex. there is a lot of tactical decision making that goes into it based off how the game plays out.
I think soloq should have same opportunity to play at this level. How this advantage is produced is by knowing where your teammate are at all times. This is why it would great change... for soloq survivor(survivor in general) to be able to globally see their teammate aura on the map. There are perks in dbd that allows you to see aura of survivor globally such as perk Empathy, Blood pact, Aftercare, Kindred etc. however these perk are less reliable then what swf get and they cost perk slots which is unfair advantage for SWF. A high-MMR soloq should be much closer to High MMR SWF in term of strength. This means that if survivor do play well, you should have winning chances as survivor.
For killer, it is not about win and escape %'s. It is about the possibility to win. A near zero 0% chance to win on weaker killer when going against strong teams is not interesting.
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@Nos37 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3423080#Comment_3423080
If you hit a survivor and immediately chase them, they can run all the way across the map before you catch up as a 4.6 m/s killer.
The pickup is not instant.
your forced to slug. that is the counter-play even if its not exactly good counter-play because your wasting time as killer while your opponent does gens for free due to 4vs1 nature of the game.
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@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3423169#Comment_3423169
what would the nerf even be? less time active?
Only activates once per game.
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@GamerButNotCapitalG said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3423153#Comment_3423153
she’s already fair.
other characters have that movespeed and can move around and change their path during it and attack at any point in the line. nurse can’t. she also has to charge up every blink and is slower than survivors. that’s why she’s 333%, so it’s not literally trash that anyone could just move from.
I mean isn't that suppose to be counter-play to nurse? Moving away from blink so nurse needs to make more prediction on blinks rather then blink directly on you on reaction. dunno, I don't think issue with nurse was downing speed. it was lack of prediction in her gameplay. Nurse kinda feels clunky to play now but her core strengths are the same.
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if your dead set on nerfing it, then I'd recommend making both tombstone add-on only able to mori survivor that have their stalk depleted and allowing tier 3 myer to deplete stalk. maybe an add-on that does that.
If you nerf myer's only redeeming quality, then you need rework myer's other add-on and buff his m1 base-kit. He will be like freddy, bottom tier killer with no hope. Personally, I think dev like his theme of being an instant kill character so I do not see changes to it.
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@GamerButNotCapitalG said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3423089#Comment_3423089
if her blink was that slow it would be literally useless trash. she can only go in a straight line and can’t attack in the middle of it.
200% speed is still pretty fast. If not 200% then 225-250%. Nurse's old range add-on increased it by 50% and some people called it OP. so clearly doing the reverse might make nurse more fair in 1vs1. Perhaps her blink should also have no cooldown. Calling it useless trash is a bit extreme.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3422972#Comment_3422972
1, if he can hook that survivor in time at all (said BNP lowers the chance - making it exactly loose less scenario) - so it's possible to get to 2 out when both lucky in chase and when killer gets less bloodlust time
2, killer dominating the chase is exactly the natural slowdown he needs. I will give u extreme example to illustrate the point - supaalf when doing his 555 win streak on nurse does not use any gen regression perk (not even during OC+CoB+eruption combo time). Insane huntresses subscribe to open map offering (like all corn maps) and all the aura perks and addons without any slowdown or regression. The point is - if you are able to get quick downs, you don't need any gen regressions, because out of 4 survivors - 1 is hanging, 1 goes for unhook, 1 is healing after being unhooked and 1 is in chase - in this case there's no regression required, because you built momentum and there's 0 gen progression.
If you are indeed good in chase, then you don't need to do anything but chase and hook (even hooking is optional - you can always slug - which btw builds extra snowball if played correctly). So no. If you are better killer in chase then survivor, you just win. The problem is if you think 2-3 minutes chase for a single down on average is reasonable time and the game is survivor-sided if you loose while having such "quick" chases. It's absolutely not (again, talking about average here - first chase is always longer, because there are more resources on the map). Quick chase is 30s to down someone. Anything above 1 minute is slow and it means you will need to make it up somewhere else (say by perk like pain resonance) - on the other hand as survivor you can kinda negate single bad chase like that and make it effectively "longer chase" by using BNP's.
And sure - this is still simplified a lot. Because there are things like having setup to your abilities (for some killers/perks/...), creating deadzones, slugging, basement plays and sure - also camp and tunnel if that's needed. And killer can win the whole game at any time - all he needs is one serious mistake on survivor side and a bit of altruism. So 0 hooks on 5 completed gens by far does not automatically mean the game can't end in 4k.
this is most delusional post that I have ever read in a long while. there is very clear of lack inexperience in this post.
Trying to dissect this post is going to be challenging in constructive way.
First of all, The killer being good at the chase is not enough to truly enough beat good survivors. Being good at the chase as killer is like base-line killer skill at high-level. Its like doing gens as survivor.
So no. If you are better killer in chase then survivor, you just win.
This is NOT true. you do not just win. You just lose. I am not joking when I say that virtually 70% of killer cast vs really good survivors is legit cake walk to defeat. When I say defeat, I mean consistently get defeated with 0% chance to win. that is testament to how little impact being good at killers has on the match.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb5RwFrlpWoIf you don't believe me, Spookyloopz recently posted a video where he purposely picks low-tier m1 killers and tries to win hens's swf team. Hens is great player and survivor team is very very good. The idea that the killer just has to do "good chases" and you just win as killer is delusional. Spookyloopz as every killer main would do is using gen defence. gen-blocking in his case to make slow games down. You have no idea what your talking about when you are saying that killer do not need gen defense vs efficient teams.
killer dominating the chase is exactly the natural slowdown he needs. I will give u extreme example to illustrate the point - supaalf when doing his 555 win streak on nurse does not use any gen regression perk (not even during OC+CoB+eruption combo time). Insane huntresses subscribe to open map offering (like all corn maps) and all the aura perks and addons without any slowdown or regression.
This is like the worst possible example to give for so many reasons that it is laughable. First of all, Nurse is like one of two killers that arguably ignores conventional survivor looping. Her chase potential far exceeds virtually every other killer. Second of all, Nurse one of killer that truly does not benefit from gen defense as much other killers. Her actual raw mobility is not that good despite fact that she is able to teleport. I don't remember the raw math behind total distances, but between fatique and cooldown for blink recharging. the total m/s for nurse is like 120% m/s. Its something like that. What this means is that gen-kick perks in normal gameplay are not time efficiency for nurse. Its too much of opportunity cost in time to kick gens over chase survivors. You can technically 3 gen as nurse but nurse does not need to 3 gen to be successful. Her win condition is getting 7 hooks. She is very good at this because she is incredible chaser and a very reliable tunneler. Superalf talks about this in one of his videos where he talks about nurse's problems in balance. He made video around the time when Wesker released his Awaken awareness perk where he said that the two mains strength that nurse has over other killer is her ability to abuse Instant down perks and her ability to abuse aura-reading as direct hits. Instant down synergy got nerfed, so Nurse is more about abusing aura reading over gen defense. This is why his build favors automatic regression(pain res) and automatic aura reading in-chase(Flood of rage). Aura reading is good for nurse because she can down quickly, then use aura reading to tunnel death-hook survivors.
The problem is if you think 2-3 minutes chase for a single down on average is reasonable time and the game is survivor-sided if you loose while having such "quick" chases. It's absolutely not (again, talking about average here - first chase is always longer, because there are more resources on the map). Quick chase is 30s to down someone.
Now we need talk about this point. This game for non-anti loop is atrocious when it comes to time efficiency for killer to do their objective and the loop balance is a whole new other level of problems to talk about. Like, just hitting a healthy survivor and survivor running perfectly forward vs m1 killer(like freddy) is 20 second of just hold-w. This is just dead weight time that killer are forced to waste and killer has zero counter-play to it. It is also not just about getting down. It also about spending time hooking survivors. The killer spending time to pick-up survivors is time that killer wastes for hooking a survivor which is free time on generators. It is just more dead weight time for killer. The comparison is imagine survivors having to wait 10 seconds of 0 progress when they get on a generator before generator started progressing. There is also part where killer need to physically find survivors to chase and walk to places. There is so much free-time waste of killer side that it is not that simple to just say fast chases is free wins.
Downing survivor in 30 seconds if survivor are good at looping is unrealistic for most of killer cast. This is because if survivor are good at looping, they will use looping resources correctly. The distribution of types of pallet in this game is like 33% of pallets are actual infinity bloodlust 3 god pallets. When they're dropped, the vast majority of killer cast has to break them. 33% of the pallets are safe pallets. they're not bloodlust 3 infinities but the killer often has to go to like bloodlust 2 to have a chance to hit the survivor meaning that it is often not worth it such that breaking pallet is faster in a lot of cases and much lower risk play. This means that 2/3 of pallets, you cannot physically down survivors quickly if they know how to loop. The other 33% of pallets are unsafe. these are physically pallet that you can physically hit survivors and there is gameplay for killer at loops.
For this reason, a big portion of dbd for killer is pallet break simulator for non-anti loop killers. its run to pallet, get survivor to drop, break pallet, go to next pallet, break that pallet and so on. The idea that you can generate momentium and defeat good loopers with strong generator efficiency is blissful ignorance. Because of how little the killer has at gameplay in loops, a lot of the game for weaker killer is deadzones, hooking camping and 3 gen. Super defensively gameplay. The killer need less dead weight time waste, more opportunity to hits survivors(more control over loops) and more reward for being successful at the chase(since survivor is playing badly). The killer success should matter.
Your post is not understanding where I am coming from when I am talking about base-kit regression for successfully hooking survivors. This is nothing like BNP.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3422806#Comment_3422806
I think nurse is only better anymore if someone really insane plays with her like supalf because how massively she was nerfed. Whereas blight has got none and nerf to dh for example was lot more bigger buff for him than for nurse. Dh was/is very hard to hit correctly agains't her whereas easy agains't blight.
So before latest patch blights usually had to go through 3 health states before downing survivor but now only 2. Dh I think made blight more balanced/fair. After patch I have not escaped agains't blight but usually agains't nurse my whole team escapes with no problem.
yeah that's my experience as well. Blight is faster at grinding hook-states then nurse is now which makes him the best killer. you can still loop blight but if your teammate are bad and go down, then you will lose faster vs blight then Nurse.
Nurse is still consistent at grinding hook-states which is why I think she is 2nd best killer still but she is slower at winning meaning that you can more easily gen-rush nurses then blights. Her internal cooldown of blinks and removal of instant down has decreased her downing speed potential. She is still very low counter-play in term of 1vs1, but her ability to erase you in the chase is a slower. Its kinda weird. they didn't need really nerf her ability to down but rather made her ability slower at downing you. My imagination and analogy is imagine old legion that took 4 hits to down, its like nerfing nurse that now she needs 5-6 hit to down you but you still lose the chase eventually. Personally I wish they would took different direction into changing her blink potency instead of time efficiency to down. For example, decreasing her blink m/s to 150%-200% m/s from 300%+ but return her ability to instant down. Kinda like reverse range add-on's. She is balanced I guess so no need change anything.
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@Nos37 said:
And I haven't even mentioned what happens when the survivor under the pallet fully recovers...
The other survivor can play around the pallet, and drop it at the opportune time to pick the slugged survivor up; either because they stunned you, you have to break the pallet, or you have to go around.
Even if the pallet drop sends the survivor to your side of the pallet, they'll just vault tech you into picking up the survivor instead of breaking the pallet (because, again, DbD things...) and then blind you while you're stuck in an animation.
The counter to this situation in regards flip flop+power struggle is bleeding survivor out but killer loses to gen efficiency for slugging because slugging takes 4 minutes to bleed out as anti-camp disincentive. it is not uncounterable but it is lose/lose in the sense that you either give free hook-states up forcibly dropping a survivor or the killer is forced to slug for 4 minute bleed out which means entire team can just rush gens as your camping slug. This is one of reasons why unbreakable at base-kit is not a good idea among many other cases. This is one of the ways to force unbreakable value. People also abused this heavily when Decisive Strike did not deactivate when touching a generator. you'd run to a pallet, go down, if killer doesn't pick you up, you unbreakable pallet stun the killer. if they pick you up. 5 second DS. Slugging can be heavily abused by survivors to game-extra hook states. Flashlight/flashbang can cause this problem as well if the player has background player/99 SB and Sabotage with alex toolbox with dead hard activate can also force places for killer to slug producing lose/lose in time efficiency or hook-state loss.
This would likely be less unfair for killer if the survivor was penalized for forcing slugs(I.e Rewarding killer for downs) because there would be riskes associated for this behavior and killer would have more counter-play towards situation but its typical BVHR trying to implement unbreakable base-kit for survivor.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3422262#Comment_3422262
The point is - why is BNP's also NOT loose less? I even gave u perfect example u didn't touch (because there's no way to touch it - my example that allows 1 maaaaaybe 2 out is 100% not win more situation). BOTH are win more AND loose less at the same time and to the same degree.
And again about the video. Not true. They completed all gens, because alf couldn't turn normally making him also a little handicapped (which survivors used to max stacking everything - even map to abuse this as much as possible). Once he would fix that (by e.g. lowering sensitivity/dpi, or getting used to it), he would at worst 4k at 3 gens left every time - meaning your video has no meaning and shows nothing usable.
You should be able to answer that yourself to why BNP is not loose less from your own example. 2 people are dead, The killer will find 1 survivor chase them, hook them and can guaranteed camp to ensure 3 kill victory. your BNP/Progression is not changing outcome of the match. The reason why I ignored the example is because it is bad example.
Not true. They completed all gens
your missing the point. Assuming a killer is dominating you in chase. Your not suppose to be able to escape as survivor but DBD is balanced in such a way that you can play every chase as bad as possible but still have escape chances on survivor.
As strange as this sounds, the more chases that the killer goes for, the greater odds you have of escaping. its very bizarre that the killer get punished for attempting to chase and get little to no rewards for successfully committing to the chase and successfully ending the chase quickly. that is what gen-delay perks are trying to address. Pain res is good example of a perk that is trying to address that aspect of the game. The perk is trying to make hooking more rewarding and chasing entire team rewarding over camping(skipping hook states through 60 second timer mechanic) and tunneling 1/2 survivors on the team. With a change like that, there would be less requirement to use gen-delay perks and more killer would be incline to not tunnel because an alternative chase hooking play-style is possible and potentially more rewarding. I am not saying that every killer would not tunnel/camp but at least there is more opportunity to not do so.
I am not likely not going convince you in such a change but I do think that dev 2.5% regression attempt on generators has not been successful in making gen-delay less mandatory for killer. That is all I have to say.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3422215#Comment_3422215
Ok. Now exchange every "survivor" for "killer" and every "BNP" for "basekit pain res" and tell me where is the analogy wrong?
This is the reason why I say those 2 things are very much the same and comparing them together very much makes sense.
Also in times of old mori's - there were 2x as many pallets, shack had 2 windows, keys would allow all 4 survivors to get out via hatch that spawned way sooner, permanent sabotages were in the game and gen took 60s to repair - and yet the game was still playable, because a, people didn't know looping was really possible and viable compared to hiding b, killers also had broken things - like said old mori. Meaning if you just now only add 25% regress for every survivor basekit - you would need to balance the game further, or "you will be doing same
survivorkiller gameplay loop as before but you will be winning significantlyfastermore consistently"Also about the video. What are you trying to say with it? That if you are super quick, then it's hard to control your killer and you might whiff long enough, that max loaded survivors could maybe possibly on a best map under best conditions sometimes do all gens and still die? How would the situation change if Alf learned to actually control said killer? all consistently dead at 3 gens? 4 gens? What if he decided to play nasty and always bring survivors to basement + tunnel them. 4K at 5 gens?
comparing win-more mechanic for survivor and lose-less mechanic for killer (that also doubles as win-more mechanic because regressing generators always helps even though winning a game at 3 gens is same as winning a game on 4 gens due to regression) is comparing apples and oranges. you need compare things that are similar in nature towards gameplay i.e both sides having mechanics that make them win-faster.
Meaning if you just now only add 25% regress for every survivor basekit - you would need to balance the game further, or "you will be doing same
survivorkiller gameplay loop as before but you will be winning significantlyfastermore consistently"If your opponent is playing poorly then you should be winning consistently until your opponent plays better then you do at the chase.
My major point is that dev's 6.1.0 update in adding 2.5% regression for kicking gens did not fix killers not needing to run gen delay perks. Adding 24 second healing is not fun interactive fix either as it forces no-mither type injured gameplay. they need weaken health-states, not delete them. the 10% less speed boost and 10% less recovery is good change to reducing time-waste of health-state second chancing but it needs to be iterated a bit more. higher numbers similar to original 5 second bt ->10 sec bt. Less dependent on STBFL perk. Maybe add some of the perk into base-kit and weaken the perk.
Also about the video. What are you trying to say with it?
A killer could be absolute imbalanced completely in the chase but you can still complete all 5 generators despite being impossible loop. that is what I am saying. that's extent that you can stack-win more repair bonuses and still come out even against all odds. Comparing this to killer getting generator regression to have enough time chase survivors if he does well in the chase is different.
The killer is talking about getting rewarded for not tunneling and winning chases. your talking about some imbalanced generator progression.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3422166#Comment_3422166
How is it win more? 2 survivors left, 2 gens left. U have 2x BNP, you have theoretical chance to do both gens and open gate IF someone somehow chases with killer for like 1-2 minutes (this is very much possible. Lot of killers will just hard tunnel - and in mixed-skill lobies, u can get 2-3 people u can catch in 20-30s and also another survivor that can have 90s chase - so no. This is not an obscure thing that never happens). Without BNP, the chance is just not there - because u are basically guaranteed to run out of pallets or get bloodlusted. So this definitely comes to exactly the same category for very same reason - you either win more with it, or you loose less.
Exactly the same thing works for killer. He can either have enough time anyway and killing everyone at 4-5 gens left (it does happen - 1-2 big survivor mistakes at beginning and you need strong comeback to not loose) - making such a regression just "win more", or alternatively you are being spread on a huge map to all 4 corners of it where pain res actually gives you chance to make time to get back into the game - so it's loose less in that case.
Same mechanics and you could even fit those into exactly the same situation and just talk about missing pain res/BNP to actually reverse the game outcome using same words for both sides.
About alternative - I didn't say making incentives for spreading hook instead of tunneling is bad idea. But providing mechanics that will give you benefit in both cases (meaning u can camp and tunnel and still get it) is just not it. That is just and only killer buff. And I don't think it's good idea to give blanked buffs to all killers at this time (I am all for buffing some specific killers, but nerfing others. Alternatively buffing soloQ in superfluous way to SWF and buffing specifically weaker killers - leaving everything else the same). The game is already super unforgiving to soloQ players and another general killer buff would be just detrimental at this point (again - there are specific killers that need to be buffed) - and even if some killers are pain to play compared to others (non-condemn sadako, non-tombstone meyers, freddy vs nurse, blight, spirit) - it's still better then soloQ experience compared to SWF (not even counting comms into it - sometimes you can be just screwed by matchmaking into literally unwinnable game no matter what you do - which is less of a thing even for weaker killers).
I have played against survivor that bring 2 brand new part toolboxes and I kill entire team with 4 gens left. Its kinda same old mori's back in the day. Old mori did not mean you auto won the match as killer. they heavily stacked the odds in your favor because you were removing hook-states from opposing side leading to faster deaths(like tunnel off hook). you could still escape killers because in order for reducing hook state to be relevant, you need to be able to down survivor two times consecutively to take advantage of mori effect. Killer who failed to do this still lost even with old mori's. That's kinda what win-more mechanic is. you need to be able to win to win-more. You win faster. It is that simple.
Going back toolboxes and repair speed progression perks. you need to be able to repair 5 generators without these progression bonuses to win. Once your able to semi-consistently do that, these items become insane because if you were already semi-finishing all 5 gens without progression than these items take up your efficiency to next level. When you start using these items, you will be doing same survivor gameplay loop as before but you will be winning significantly faster. In fact if you stack enough win-more mechanics on survivor side, you could potentially be unbeatable. Survivor gameplay is more complicated. there is a lot of moving parts to play survivor well. there is no simple explanation that does not miss a big portion of relevant detail to summarize survivor gameplay. To show how ridiculously win-more stacking is in this game, you have a killer that moves 400%. Completely impossible loop and you still complete the objective. Shouldn't the game be unwinnable? Well you would be very surprised.
Around 3-4 months ago, There used to be a bug on Knight that made him go 300-400% speed. SuperAlf decided to do private lobby to see if you could defeat a killer with so much movement speed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHc7RVvs6ygHere is the video if your curious. You can indeed complete all 5 generators when facing killer at 400% speed. You cannot quite escape the killer but you can finish all 5 generator which is impressive to say least. As I said, gen progression is not quite same thing.
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What I am talking about is different. I am saying that killers that are successfully winning chases in short amount of time should be near impossible to defeat because survivor is playing as bad as possible. Being successful at chases should prerequisite towards escaping as survivor. Until anything changes in regards to this, you can expect gen delay and tunneling to stay the same assuming there is any generator defence left to begin with. What your talking about is unrelated to what I am talking about.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3422126#Comment_3422126
I sincerely don't understand. If you have a thing that "instantly" progresses your gens by 25% most of the time - then how is that different to the other side having thing that instntly regresses your gens by 25% most of the time? I absolutely don't get it. One thing gives more time to killers to kill survivors, the other thing takes away exactly the same time for killer to actually kill all survivors (with very minor differences - most standard case would be for PR absolutely precisely negate 4 BNP's making it the same as if 0 instead of 4 survs brought those and killer bringing 3 perks insted of 4th pain res).
Why would you even compare it to something that is the same ONLY BY PROXY + much more conditionally? I don't understand your reasoning.
gen progress is exclusively win more mechanic. its hard to compare to anything on killer side because there is nothing that directly 1:1 speed up their ability to kill. closest thing is old ebony mori offering. the old ebony mori offering made it so that you could mori a survivor on first hook. Effectively, this means that you reduce the total number of hook state by 33%.
Commodos wire spool+brand new part toolboxes are similar. they decrease the survivor's objective time. On average, 4 of these toolboxes is roughly -2 generators which is 40% of the objective. you can see why brand new part used to be compared to old ebony mori. Keys were also compared to this because you could finish 4 gens where 1 person dies, then 3 people could escape through hatch which effectively skips 1 gen. I think keys were supposedly an item to counter 3 gens but they didn't make much sense at that point of the game because an anti 3 gen mechanic like old keys is not needed when regression is 4x slower and no perks influenced over-time regression until hex:ruin rework and much more recent cob/oc perks. As I said, its not comparable.
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My post regarding pain res is little bit like otz video regarding tunneling. you can give suggestions to give alternative options for killer to not tunnel but players like you will reject them. Base-kit Pain Res would likely get feedback like this. "Why I am being punished for my teammates being terrible at the chase, What an unfair mechanic, reee ".
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@Canas said:
They definitely dropped the ball when it came to properly representing him in the game. The first thing you'd consider as a power for him would obviously be his rocket launcher, second thing would be his extremely scary sprint which is absolutely crazy. He literally can jump in front of Jill to cut off her escape route, he's that agile. Meanwhile in DbD he's jogging behind the survivors struggling to catch up as an ordinary 115% ms killer.
They also neglected to make him as tall as in RE3 remake, he's at least as massive as Lady Dimitrescu in that game (9 feet or around 3 meters). They clearly made him one head shorter for DbD to make him fit through the various doorways instead of giving him custom animations to deal with these instances.
they represented half of his characteristics. In dbd, -Super Human Strength- is presented as pallet breaking, hence trapper's perk called brutal strength and his zombies are suppose to represent a zombie apocalypse. I think its represented pretty well.
@Smoe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3422084#Comment_3422084
Thing is, The Redeemer was designed specifically to fit into dbd's gameplay, you still need to m1 Survivors when they're reeled in, so it does still fit within the boundaries of dbd and it's themes since it's not like a regular projectile weapon.
Things like regular guns and explosive weapons does not fit dbd thematically, never has and never will, it does not matter how iconic it is to a character.
Also even Mathieu Cote said it himself back during the release of the first Resident Evil dlc in an interview how weapons like that doesn't fit dbd and pointed out how Deathslinger has a gun but it's specifically designed to fit into dbd.
from 11:30 - 12:17
the biggest issue is that mathew cote says that you are suppose to re-evaluate how to play vs killer but the zombies are so weak and meaningless that they do not make you re-evaluate anything. the zombies move incredibly slow that they have almost no-use in being at right place at right time. its almost miracle if the zombie does anything in the match. If they somehow manage to get to a generator, you can lead to a pallet to drop it to kill zombie as you continue to repair generators.
On top of that, the power grants extra health-states. Just in case zombies do manage to do something, they can sometimes extends chases. Most of Nemesis add-on list is very bad well. The idea of Nemesis being this Super inhuman strength that smash's pallets like bread and butter with a zombie apocalypse is awesome but the numbers with killer tuning is so safe that it is not noticeable. I don't really notice pallet break speed that much. Its kinda like Demogorgon. Big super-human beast but breaks pallets slowly...
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@Gandor said:
Slinger is in good state and doesn't need buffs. In top-tier he's even slightly better then huntress:
he is not. the huntress player was playing poorly/inexperienced in game 2. the player opt to pick Iri head but doesn't use Iron maiden and also doesn't use green reload add-on. Iri head in general is gimmick add-on. its not very good and its easy to counter with DH. you just stay injured and you get 2 free health-states. in round 2, both killer played about equally but huntress could easily won dead dog saloon if she was not using gimmick add-on's. Coconuts showed much better showcase of huntress as he is huntress main and I am sure ralph and ohtofu are pretty good at huntress as well. they'd have better showing on the killer.
Its like that with otz videos where he gets an 8000 hour dbd player that is main skull merchant and then you get 800 hour knight player that is still learning ropes of killer. with such an experience disparity, you will get wrong impression killer. This isn't to say that huntress player is bad or that knight player did poorly but you can tell whenever a killer is confident in their killer play and knows what they're doing vs a killer that is shaky and has lack of confidence in their gameplay.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3422093#Comment_3422093
not comparable at all.
It's precisely and very well comparable. BNP's give between 15-25% progression (where 25% is most likely in higher MMR) and pain res anything between 0-25% regression (where full 25% is most likely in every MMR). How is that not comparable? I see it as perfect comparable example - where the biggest difference is that scourge hook first requires down (while survivor just need to not be interrupted for a short time or not loose toolbox from franklin's or something like that). Very similar mechanics.
I am providing incentive to NOT do those tactics
The incentive is absolutely NOT there. Because it works as just a pure bonus to camp + tunnel. It would be incentive if it made you choose - you get the bonus OR you do those tactics. BUT you are able to do both making it just pure buff. Also - the same thing and same requirement would be just there again a week later - because weaker killer player would be "forced" to do those to have chance against "OP survivors" (those he does not even see right now, because he didn't even reach soft cap to see them)
If you want to be super technical about it, you could make that first hook does not regress generator. That is not how current pain works though and the idea that chasing = tunneling is messed up.
From previous discussions that I have had with you, there is little point in discussion because your one of those types of player that have very set opinion. I am just going agree to disagree. your comparison and analogy is really far off. gen regression is weird in the game because its mechanic that is lose-less and win-more at same time. If your going give a comparison then you need have a mechanic that is lose-less and win-more at the same time.
closest I could think of to this mechanic for survivor is dead hard. If we dig deeper, it applies all second chance perk but I will keep it simple. DH is comparable to this mechanic because let's say your winning the chase as survivor. you have looped killer for 45 which let just say it is average. If you hit dead hard and your successful, you can extend chases by 30 seconds, so your 45 second turned into 75 second chase. By successfully landing dead hard, your winning harder. You already looped killer 45 seconds, but now your winning harder because you looped even better then what you were suppose to loop. What was suppose to be 1 gen chase turned into 3 gen chase.
Dead hard is also lose-less mechanic. How is it lose-less? Well let's say two people are slugged on floor, everyone is injured. you get chased as survivor. you loop killer for 20 seconds. You hit Dead hard, you extend chase by +20 seconds. During the time that you looped the killer for extra 20 seconds, your team picked themselves up for slug and all 3 survivor are fully healed. From a bad situation, you comeback. this is an example of losing less. Instead of you going down, you tank a hit and reset your team.
second-chance perks are closest thing to generator regression in the game because of win-more and lose-less mechanic of the game. they're honestly too powerful but that's separate discussion in my opinion.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3422053#Comment_3422053
For the same reason as BNP should NOT be basekit. It provides 25% regression 4x (same as BNP provides up-to 25% progression per survivor). Just no. Bad idea. Also the perk is very strong. It's part of almost all of my killer builds (I remove it mainly if I decide to use deadlock instead as they have quite a significant antisynergy)
not comparable at all.
@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3422085#Comment_3422085
Sure. But the problem is, that killers will always camp and tunnel so long as it's the easiest and most rewarding thing. This argument is just pure utter nonsense. You would need to hard-nerf those tactics before you buff killers in some other way.
Also it's not like killer is unplayable. This patch especially S-tier killers have it easy (and if you mention trapper/onryo/etc I can say the same thing with soloQ - with the difference that every killer has it easier then soloQ survivors)
I am not hard-nerfing the tactics, I am providing incentive to NOT do those tactics. Killer was never unplayable. It will never be unplayable because if your good the game, you'll always beat weaker survivor that are worse then your killer play. This is more related to 0.1-2% of type change.
@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3422053#Comment_3422053
Should be optional?
This would make it even stronger to use. They would need to nerf existing slow down perks a lot
there is nothing to use. its base-kit. Why would they nerf existing slowdown perks? most of them rely on gen-kicking i.e 3 gens but all of them have been severely weakened. The other ones action speed penalty with terrible numbers/conditions/drawbacks and then there is CI+Deadlock.
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@Chordyceps said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3422053#Comment_3422053
I'm not sure I agree with the sentiment that hooking survivors should be rewarding. It's your main objective after all. And it "rewards" you by getting closer to having a survivor deas, and even one survivor being dead is a huge deal.
This is probably why hooking doesn't offer any additional rewards outside of perks and Im fine with that. Each hook related perk rewards you for hooking, but you have to do something to get that reward. For scourge hooks its hooking on specific hooks. For make your choice its not camping and then hitting the unhooker. For pgtw, you also have to kick a gen. For DMS you have to force survivors off gens somehow.
Perks that rewards hooking can be powerful since it requires a little extra besides just hooking. I dont think the base mechanic of hooking should ever be messed with honestly.
I disagree. I bet 60%+ of killer that play at high-level would also disagree. generator regression/delay is neccassary in the game because it gives greater correlation of on killer success in micro chase. I am not joking when I say that you can play total #^$ at survivor and a strong swf with optimized gen efficiency will still finish all 5 gens despite running 0 good loops/long chases the entire game.
If you don't believe, just look at stats on perk pick-rates. Jolt, sloppy, pain res, corrupt, deadlock. These pick-rate were way higher before but they are lower now because BVHR has nerfed gen delay perks that we are getting to the point where game-delay perks are low-impact that there is almost little point in running them. that does not mean they are not necessary and that suddenly the problem has been fixed.
The problem is still there but you will experience more tunneling and more camping for purposes of slowing down the game as a result.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3422040#Comment_3422040
No, no, hell no.
Killers really don't need this basekit. Just no
Pain Resonance is still really strong perk. You need to make sure you use it effectively (there is a gen with high progress). You can't simply use scourge hook whenever you can.
But it's still one of best slowdown perks. That's not something that should be basekit at all.
It would only make already strong killers even better. It would be really bad idea.
It would be really bad idea.
why? Hooking survivors should be rewarding. I am do not know how to write this without sounding insulting. Survivors could run 0 good loops and the survivor still has potencial to escape killers because generator progression does not have a great enough correlation to killer's micro chase gameplay. To put mildly, you could run 0 loops correctly as survivor and you will still win like 50% of the time. that should not be the case... Being successful at downing survivors quickly as killer should be rewarding and survivor's chasing skill should impact their ability to complete the generator objective. Its why killer used gen delay perks...
I agree pain res is best regression perk still but remember what dev wrote in both the healing update and 6.1 update. Running regression should be optional, not mandatory for killer. a change like this would make it more optional rather then mandatory.
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Pain res is potentially a perk that should be base-kit. Awhile back, they gave killer 2.5% regression for kicking a gen in hopes to get killer to not use gen delay perks but the change heavily missed its mark.
A good solution to disincentive tunneling the same 1(2) survivors would be to add base-kit regression for hooking a survivor.
Here''s an example: Entity Curse:
1 - Each time a survivor is hooked, The furthest progress generator is regressed by 25%.
2 - Killers start with 4 tokens.
3 - Each time a survivor is hooked, 1 token is removed.
4 - When all survivors have been hook once, The tokens are refreshed incurring -10% penalty towards regression.
5 - No regression is award when the survivor is sacrificed.
6 - When a survivor is killed by any means, the mechanic is disabled(including d/c). The survivors get an increase of 33% increase in healing speed and a 33% increase in all repair actions called Entity Blessing.
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His assassin guard need more speed. Assassin guard is not good enough at countering hold-w survivors. Main issue with knight.. Hold-w vs guards makes knights power for getting power hits is unrewarding. I still think that knight guards should gain 1-5% haste based off distance of patrol path. This would help knight to counter hold-w strategies in the chase and make him a solid killer against all skill-brackets. Whenever I am playing Knight, I feel like I am demolishing all weak/medium survivor teams but heavily struggling against the hold-w very experienced survivors.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
Giving him a lullaby would be a nerf. You wouldn't be able to revert his TR to 24m with Monitor, and you wouldn't be able to take advantage of the Undetectable or Oblivious Status Effects.
This. I cannot understand the lullaby suggest keeps coming up.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3421008#Comment_3421008
The game refuses to let a killer lunge if they are too close to a survivor, even if they are holding down the M1 key, and even if they are holding down the W key. If a survivor is close to a killer, and the game forces a short M1 tap, and if the survivor uses an unintended mechanic to go over the intended spin rate, they can spin outside of the short M1 tap range.
Why does this game forbid killers from lunging, if they are "too close" to a survivor? The game obviously has a problem where "being too close" doesn't necessarily mean the survivor will be in M1 tap range when the killer actually goes for an attack. The game should allow killers to lunge regardless of how close they are to a survivor.
as I said it is likely server hit validation. the server is counting your hits as invalid for some reason. regardless of how hard the survivor spins, you can always track the survivor from 360 in my opinion. I suspect OP might be complaining about lagswitching where server is validating his hits. Alternatively, It is possible that his internet connection is bad and server is validating his hits.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3421000#Comment_3421000
I do not agree with that notion of balance. survivors do have free escape perk in end game. the perk is called Adrenaline.
That is not a guaranteed escape perk. That is a heal and a speed boost that happens before the gates are opened. If a killer is chasing a survivor with Adrenaline, they still have a chance to catch and down them. That is not comparable to Decisive Strike and Off the Record making it possible to run out the exit gates with 0 risk of failure.
right so if you loop killer for 30 seconds which should be easy with extra health-state+hold w distance, a swf can bodyblock you by creating berlin wall as the injured survivor just runs forward towards an exit gate if your m1 killer with no instant down or fast catch-up.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3420759#Comment_3420759
The most ridiculous part of all of this is I'm not even asking for the survivor turn rate to be capped, because it's already supposed to be capped. I'm just asking for the intended cap rate to be enforced, and for survivors to be unable to bypass this intended turn rate cap.
i think OP is complaining about Server Hit validation. When your M1 stops preemptively and you are pulled back, this is server hit validation. It means server deemed the hit as unfair/invalid.
OP is facing lag switchers who are using 360's then lag switching to avoid the hit by abusing server validation. This is my best guess. Lag switching is basically when survivor purposely lag their connection and it makes them impossible to hit because they end up teleporting on screen from the desync. I have faced some lag switchers in dbd but they are not common. Lag switching is as bad as hacking but its more subtle hacking then speed-hacking for example. Lag switchers are also impossible to hook because they lag so much that you cannot complete the hook-action. Its really unfair to face a lag switcher. I am not sure how BVHR could fix that. Maybe it make that if you lag switch your connection, you disconnect. in server terms, i think its something called a sync limit. it limits how much you can desync. if you desync too much then you d/c to prevent lag switching.
360's are not an issue. lag switching can be an issue.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3420986#Comment_3420986
There's no double standard. Killers still aren't guarantee a kill at the end of the game. All that's changed is that killers have a better chance to secure kills because survivors don't have free escape perk. And that's how it should be in an asym 1v4.
I do not agree with that notion of balance. survivors do have free escape perk in end game. the perk is called Adrenaline. Its just not as good as old decisive strike end game.
@1ettuce said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3420987#Comment_3420987
With full stbfl stacks, bubba, billy, huntress, trickster, and some more you are very much able to guarantee a kill at the end of the game
decisive strike in end game gave you slimmers of chance to escape against those killers in end game.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3420725#Comment_3420725
Because they would offer free escapes for survivors who are downed near the exit gates, where the killer cannot hook them by any means despite having hit/downed them. It would guarantee that any survivor with either/both of these perks, if hooked and rescued during EGC, would have a guaranteed escape.
This is a situation in which the survivors are already winning, and it pushes it over the line from an 'almost win' to a guaranteed win.
The killer equivalent to that, would be if three survivors were dead, the killer has almost scored 4 kills, and there is no hatch and no EGC, so the fourth survivor cannot escape by any means.
Survivor main logic: 8 stacks of stbfl grants free kills to the killer. Killer is allowed free kills. survivor not allowed free escapes with OTR/DS in end game. /unfair
@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3420960#Comment_3420960
You are simply putting words into my mouth.
The game is designed around the killer being able to secure at least 1 kill. This does not mean that 0 kills never happen. Killers still have to put forth effort to secure that 1 kill. Survivors don't get perks that provide essentially a free escape in the end game as a result.
Sounds like double standards. Your saying survivor shouldn't have free escape end game perks but killer should. I think it should go both ways which is why I don't really agree with DS/OTR nerf in end game.
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@Clockwork_Enigma said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3420443#Comment_3420443
1) I should clarify that the 15% increase is only for the fast vault you initiate off cooldown. This does not apply when you have cooldown.
2) They aren't meaningless. The removal of the Dream World counter is necessary to stop it from countering a Killer power, while the removal of the 50% increase in speed if you AREN'T finishing the last generator is a huge nerf.
3) None of the three Killer perks I buffed (whichever ones you're mentioning) would be pointless. They would serve their functions very well and create interesting builds.
4) STBFL is more than likely the best Killer perk in the game at the moment, if just because of it being the only unchanged meta perk out there.
5) No one likes Lightborn in its current state. Not Survivors, not Killers.
stbfl needs to be more base-kit. I think survivors health-state should be reduced to 1.25 seconds and killer hit recovery should be reduced to 2.25 seconds from 2.7 second. As a result of changes, STBFL should be reduced from 5%->2%.
Strangely enough, I do agree with your changes. I think there are too many exhaustion perk that do not belong as exhaustion perks. Head on and Background player should also be removed from exhaustion perk list. Its foolish to try to make bad exhaustion perks to compete with dead hard, SB and Lithe. I think smash hit could also be normal perk that increases pallet stuns by 0.5 second with short cooldown of 40/35/30 seconds.
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base-kit hindered is unlikely to happen. She has chase power in form of invisibility and flickering but her number are under-tuned from gameplay perceptive. Of course we do not go by dbd gameplay, we go by statistical kill-rates.
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@Remedicist said:
I want to make the Skull Merchant a stealth tracking killer rather than an area-denial tracking killer. Here are the changes I would make. Anything that I did not mention or change is assumed to have not been changed (Ex: claw traps still break pallets when vaulted, and survivors still become exposed when failing the drone mini-game).
Removed abilities:
- Survivors no longer become exposed when being detected by a drone
- The Skull Merchant no longer gains the Haste status effect for each survivor that is being tracked
- The Skull Merchant can no longer place a new drone in the area that the previous drone has been deactivated in until the claw trap battery runs out (however, the Skull Merchant will get the drone back when the previous drone is deactivated and can place it somewhere else instead)
Added abilities:
- The Skull Merchant will gain the Undetectable status effect anywhere on the map whenever a drone is tracking a survivor. This effect lingers for 10 seconds after a drone is no longer detecting a survivor. In addition, the Skull Merchant's lingering Undetectable status effect after she leaves an active drone area herself is increased to 10 seconds as well
- A survivor that has a claw trap on will suffer from the Oblivious status effect until the claw trap battery runs out (the survivor will still activate any drone in scanning mode when walking into its area with a claw trap on, but this will not cause the battery to refill to full duration again)
- The Skull Merchant gains a 10% buff to action speed of breaking pallets, breakable walls, or damaging generators whenever she is in an active drone area. This effect lingers for 10 seconds after leaving the area of effect. Additionally, she gains an extra 5% buff to this action speed for every individual survivor that is being tracked by a drone specifically.
I have listed reasons for my changes below.
i don't think skull merchant is meant to be stealth killer. She has 2 second of undetectable in drone radius but I believe this is not for stealth. its related to red light mechanic at loops. Beast of Prey grants undetectable when reaching bloodlust 1 but the perk originally was not about stealth. it was about hiding red light and undetectable shares same status effect as hiding red light.
The anti-red light is supposely meant to make skull merchant more difficult to loop at tall-wall tiles when a drone area is active. It is not for stealth. You can use an oblivious add-on called brown noise generator that grants 15 second of lingering oblivious to be stealth killer if survivors ignore drones and do not disable them.
if you want to play stealth killer, consider playing Wraith or Ghostface which have on-command stealth. You could also try John Medical file Pig as stealth build. Skull merchant is in a fine place now in comparison to her PTB unlimited 3 gen state. There is no need to change anything.
Otz has video on youtube called Knight vs Skull merchant that showcases how to play skull merchant. These change are terrible and unnecessary. They put her into a worse position then PTB iteration of the game. Stop trying to delete killer powers and turn the killer into an m1 killer with no prospects of chase.
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perhaps buffing the perk by 1-2% for total 5-6% would be a decent addition to brutal strength chase builds.
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if you down all 4 survivors or 3 survivors when not all gens are completed. I would say that 99% of the time, the killer gets 3 kills minimum. All finisher mori did was save time. Instead of hooking survivor for 1 minute, the game would end faster. worst case scenario, the killer cannot find survivor and survivor bleed out. maybe consider deer stalker base-kit when 1 person is left so killer can save 4 minutes of bleed out timer to move on to next game.
There very niche cases where finisher mori system would make difference over normal game. Normally it is when multiple survivors go down next to exit gate but killer cannot pick up all 3 slugged survivors that crawl out exit gate. that is like only situation where finisher mori system helps killer. Other then that, its quick way to save time to move on the next match.
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I think 45 second of unlimited unbreakable was an attempt to buff killer slugging because premise is that if it takes 4 minutes to die, a killer would need 4-5 downs to bleed someone out. I just don't its good approach to buffing slugging. It kinda misses the mark. the problem with slugging is that its too slow of a method for survivors to die. The unbreakable effect to pick yourself up is like deliverance for hooks. if you are slugging someone, your incentived to camp the survivor on the floor because they will get back up automatically. your putting time pressure on killer to hook else they lose out on their hooking reward and with ability self-pick up, the survivors gain time from not having to go from save instead of lose time. As OP title suggests, bleeding out for 4 minutes is really long time dbd. Encouraging slow-play bleed out is not particular fun for survivor. I would recommend avoiding that gameplay.
The way I would approach slugging is every time a survivor is put into dying state. when another survivor heals another survivor or a survivor is picked up with non-unlimited unbreakable type perks, they suffer minor regression penalty to their bleed out bar. I am not sure what number would be but say 10-15% total bleed out regression. If a survivor reaches last 10 second of bleed bar and another survivor is healing them, the bleed out bar is paused. When survivor is picked up, their bleed out bar reaches 0. If a killer downs them when their bleed out bar is 0, then the killer automatically mori's the survivor. I think this system would be better because it encourage killer to move around and down as many survivors as possible. When the killer sees the bleed out bar is low, they can try to camp out the survivor to kill them similar to how a killer would camp a survivor when they are on death hook with <30 second to try to get them killed. In doing this change, they could rework troll perks like No mither and slightly adjust unbreakable to accommodate system. Some of slugging perks could be improved as well such as Soulguard, We're gonna live forever and Tenacity. BT for hook is 20 seconds, soulguard could be 20 seconds of endurance. We're gonna live forever could reduce regression penalty to 0 based off its stacks. Tenacity could slow down bleed out. This would be my approach to towards slugging. Survivor would have more threats then just hook-states. they would need to adapt slugging as part of normal gameplay loop.
@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3419695#Comment_3419695
The issue is agency. If Survivors clicky clicky teabag at the exit gate, I can force them out, or leave and wait out the timer. I have a choice to end it sooner, and a choice to ignore the stimuli. If a Survivor hides, I can kick a gen and look for them around it, and if the gen stops sparking when I return, I know they are still somewhere there. I can still try to do something to advance the game, look for the Surv(s), and if I brought Nowhere to Hide, I can often get a free hit. If I need to find a hiding Survivor, they need to actively hide to play the game. If a Killer bleeds me out, I can recover (to 95%) for Survival BP, or crawl. Neither action lets me have true agency to progress the game, especially if all remaining Survs are slugged as well. Also once everyone is downed, a Killer can choose to just AFK and win. Survivors can never reach a state where they win by AFKing. A basekit solution exists for a Killer to end the match, (seek them out, or hit them to force out) but there is no such Survivor basekit solution for slugging, be that self-pickup, ally pickup each other from the ground, or a hook suicide equivalent for the ground. No agency equals a problem.
The hatch aspect is an edge case, but I understand their logic. When Survivors hide and refuse to touch gens, to get them banned you need 10 minutes of proof no gens are being progressed(IIRC it was 10m). That is strictly holding the game hostage. A Killer bleeding out the 3rd Surv while looking for the 4th is more often than not holding both those Survs hostage in spirit, even if not strictly against the rules. The Killer in that scenario is forcing a minimum of 4 minutes where the Surv isn't allowed to do anything, up to 8 if they nearly bled out one then they got picked up and the Killer repeated the process with the other Surv. The Killer holds the game hostage (in spirit) for those (typical) 4 minutes. It isn't bannable, but since the effects are clearly along the same lines as the bannable equivalent, I can understand anyone wanting it to be banned. I personally wouldn't think it is a problem as long as the other Survivor got chased within the next 30s. Essentially if you 95'ed your recovery, you should be able to give up, same as a hook suicide.
Another facet is that some people could think of themselves as a Martyr keeping the other player(s) away from the player base as long as possible before ending the match. They will take the 'L' and keep playing in an unwinnable match, if it means the scumbag opponent(s) doesn't get to 'torture' other 'victims'. I've seen both Survivors and Killers play with what appeared to be this mindset. Both sides have basically played to keep the opposition in the match as long as possible (typically under non-bannable lines).
The problem with the Mori system, was that it encouraged a speedrun to the finish by slugging all Survivors. It had 0 hook state requirements or anything. The Survivors could still play if they had the perks, (or the basekit UB) but were denied their use. The basekit UB gave 45s to pick up Survivors. Heck, even a classic snowball case Oni, has his power last 45s (-7 per down.) Even if you managed to down all 4 Survs in order, there was enough time to hook them sequentially, due to the reduced power duration on down.
The main problem is everyone is acting like those 2 features needed to be connected, but both could be implemented in various ways to still be decent. The 45s pickup was perfect for even normal matches, as it would only reasonably affect comp matches, which don't matter. The Mori finisher could have been implemented only when 1 Survivor remains, so you could down them for the Mori Finisher, or stand away from hatch in LOS to indicate you are giving it to them.
I think they want slugging and finisher mori to be part of same update.