Devil_hit11
Devil_hit11
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the perk is pretty much bad on every killer. I kinda wish that they added back -4% healing debuff on all survivors. at least the perk would have a niche in anti-heal builds.
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they have trouble balancing a killer to get 7 hooks. let alone 12 hooks. perhaps dev first need to balance the weaker killers to get 7 hooks per game vs top 1% SWF before considering 12 hooks. it is hard enough winning with camping+tunneling vs strong teams before considering how to win without tunneling/camping. DBD killer are far far from non-tunnel gameplay. The vast majority of killer are nowhere near being able to play without tunneling. I do not think killer will ever be balanced for 10* hook gameplay. Survivors would likely never put up with strong killer powers. The general survivor player-base do not like much challenge. survivors would complain about strong killer powers even if the survivor was unable to get tunneled, slugged or camped. It would be funny if dbd got April fools update that removed 3 strategies for 1 day. I wonder what survivor player-base would say.
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bvhr does not know what buffing perks is. they only know nerfing perks. They are afraid of power-creep. power-creep will apparently destroy the game.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394630#Comment_3394630
That math is bad. It doesn't extend EVERY gen by 30 seconds. It prevents 30 seconds of working on one. You can still use that time for healing, totems, or even just doing a different gen. It doesn't literally make a gen 2 minutes long unless you decided to do absolutely nothing but STAND THERE for half a minute.
30 second of not being able to work on generator is 30 seconds loss of gen progress. leaving generator is not good because by the time you get to next gen, deadlock expires but staying there has no productive value. Its easily S-tier perk for camping and Tunnelling strategies. I believe hens team actually lost to a nurse using corrupt intervention+deadlock+No way out and their win-streak was 200+ escapes vs majority killers.
@Aven_Fallen said:
To be honest, Deadlock should have been nerfed long ago. It is just effortless Slowdown and makes camping stronger.
I remember that Otz also was surprised that they did not nerf Deadlock with 6.1.0... It has always been one of the strongest Slowdown-Perks, even if it does not provide any Regression itself.
killer had 45 second dead man switch and 2 minute and uninterrupted corrupt intervention. to be fair, they had much better perks at the time before considering deadlock.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394378#Comment_3394378
If that's so then a lot of people will immediately retire from the killer role.
cob and oc are unhealthy regression perks. they abuse map design and imbalance survivor objective. a big part my survivors deaths in post 6.1 were all 3 gen killers. 30-40 minute games were not enjoyable for the survivor experience. Holding the game hostage was borderline game-breaking.
there must be a world where they can 80% of the weaker killer in the game without requiring them to take 20+ minutes to 1 game. their current ptb did exact opposite. it buffed top 20% killer turbo hard and did very little for weaker killers. I might consider making a post at some point that does global changes to buff weaker killers. I have been mostly hesitate to say anything because any time you suggest anything to improve killer, survivor player-base will go complete crazy.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392725#Comment_3392725
As soon as they removed the Self-Heal aspect of the perk, it was dead in Solo Q.
yep.
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@Pulsar said:
I think considering the healing changes were reverted, CoH could go back to being 50%.
Your idea isn't very good as the time requirement would not be equivalent at all.
COH is dead for soloq. Its SWF perk now. really strong SWF perk as well. it went from completely dead on PTB to really strong for SWF but not useful for soloq.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392562#Comment_3392562
I thought only the person being unhooked gets Dead Hard, it’s just an awkward wording, where “unhooking yourself” really just means “self unhook”?
Edit: Your right. its only if you get unhooked.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392449#Comment_3392449
The problem with this strategy about keeping 4/5 players happy is that almost nobody wants to play killer. This has been the rule rather than the exception for ~6 years.
They had hoped the 6.1 update would change things and the truth is that it just didn't. Before 6.1 we had people pinging the DBD server and found 45 killers in queue with 4500 survivors. That's a lot of survivors to keep happy but not many killers left who even bother to keep playing.
At the very least they could have made the rule : no more than 1 player gets DH from an unhook. If two people could get it from an unhook give it to the player that just got unhooked.
At the very least they could have made the rule : no more than 1 player gets DH from an unhook. If two people could get it from an unhook give it to the player that just got unhooked.
For the update’s release, we have changed Dead Hard to instead activate when you are unhooked or unhook yourself. This way, the unhooked Survivor becomes less of a clear target for the Killer.
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If both survivor has dead hard equipped, both dead hard are activated. honestly the idea that dead hard change encouraged tunneling was propaganda because a killer can hit a survivor to put them into deep wound which disables dead hard. The change does nothing prevent that, so expect people to keep doing that anyway. it was mostly propaganda to get dead hard buffed. It worked so I cannot argue with it.
Before 6.1 we had people pinging the DBD server and found 45 killers in queue with 4500 survivors. That's a lot of survivors to keep happy but not many killers left who even bother to keep playing.
I have heard about that. I am not entirely sure if that is true or not, but that is a problem. Killer not having fun playing dbd makes killers not want to play killer because the experience is unfun. As I said, Killer fun is generally almost completely ignored in dbd, I think that is mostly problem for high-end killer. Most of killer are balanced around low to mid-level meaning that their abilities are not particularly effective against very strong survivors. that makes killer not fun to play at high-level despite kill-statistics showing otherwise.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
An oversight of the medkit changes will result in the time it takes to heal yourself with Pharmacy to be essentially doubled. This perk was barely used before, and doesn't need a nerf.
Pharmacy needs a major speed bonus to healing yourself with medkits gained with this perk to offset the nerfs to the Green Medkit. Something like +100% would put it close to what it was before.
I think their perk can get reworked to heal a full health-state upon opening a chest. No med-kit or anything like that. just full heal whenever you open a chest injured.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
I can’t believe Dead Hard got such a tiny nerf.
Dead Hard has been the #1 complained about survivor perk for months, and the new nerf still allows survivors to easily get multiple uses per game.
How is this fair at all? All the good gen kicking regression perks got massive nerfs, but dead hard gets such a small nerf that I might still need to suffer through it every game?
BVHR is pretty survivor bias. so I was expecting DH to get a buff. It was just gut feeling.
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392348#Comment_3392348
Why is it fine for killer perks to absolutely get nerfed into the ground, but dead hard is ok with a smaller nerf because “it would be used less”?
With the killer perk nerfs, it wasn’t a “the perks are still good, but we’ll just see them less”. The killer perk nerfs were a “completely useless now and not worth using anymore”
generally speaking, BVHR tend to prioritize survivor fun above all else. The PTB was just really strange because its only time that I have ever witness changes that lower survivor's fun factor. the gen-kicking perks that encourage 3 gen gameplay is not fun for survivor. that is kinda why they are removing it.
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@Blueberry said:
I was so excited for a new meta where gen regression perks or tunneling wasn’t going to be necessary in high end matches so it’s pretty disappointing that they’re probably going to pull back on the healing changes.
well what I did say Blueberry. Forcing everyone to be injured the entire game is going to create unfun experience for survivors. they tried ptb and many survivor complained about unfun experience. As a result, the change got reverted. weakening healing is too high-level of a change. BVHR tends to balance around middle-level survivor. A change like that is high-level survivor change. soloq is not at that level yet to do a sweeping change like that. Healing coordination is not there. Its kinda why I said that hit & run is more perk play-style more so then a general gameplay loop for killer. healing that slow is ok if you commit 2 perks for anti-healing but just giving that to every killer for free base-kit is too severe.
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@Crowman said:
Making Dead Hard trigger off hook imo just makes it worse than making it an altruistic perk like it was on the ptb. Because now it directly competes with OTR and you don't have to worry about missing the timing with OTR. Dead Hard didn't need to be an anti-tunnel perk.
Pain Res and CoH got number buffs they needed for their heavy nerfs, so that's fine. I still think it's worthwhile slowing down altruistic healing and I think full reverting that is kind of the wrong move. But at least med-kits are still nerfed.
DH is better then OTR because you can go on generators while having dead hard. To me, it just cements that Dead hard being top meta is going to stay. The killer perks got nerfed pretty hard though so generator going fly faster and because the healing change is complete revert, they went back on their idea to spread pressure.
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Even if it was only good on the weaker killers...
That is a band aid and serves as a terrible way to balance weaker killers without actually addressing their design flaws and avoids the problem. Perks should never be balanced in a way that's like "oh it's fine because this killer sucks without it" or "it's the only thing making this killer playable." If it's the only thing making some killers viable, then perhaps those killers need to be made more viable at base instead of being forced to run a perk to do so.
BVHR does not buff killers and big part of a lot of killer design flaws is there ability to be body-blocked.
"It is, especially against good players. 8 stacks also does not get you a free kill." If by especially you meant only, then maybe I agree. But in generally getting m1s is really not that difficult, especially since getting them is easier the more stacks you get. Also when a killer with a lot of STBFL tokens camps someone on hook, there's literally just nothing you can do to rescue, there just isn't, unless you're directly next to an exit gate.
The idea that there is nothing you can do to rescue is not true. Unhooking takes 1 second and recovery time takes 1.8 second at 8 stacks. you definitely still bodyblock killer with 8 stacks in the end game. This is straight from wiki.
Killers with special attack flexibility deny the obsession of the intended counterplay
This problem is obviously much more niche than the entirety of killers that can use STBFL, but it is still an issue nonetheless and one that has an obvious solution. Killers like demogorgon, deathslinger, pig, trapper, wesker, and nemesis can completely ignore the counterplay that the survivor team is supposed to have by design. I honestly believe this is an oversight, as many of these killers didn't exist the last time the perk was updated
The perk being able to be countered is inherit design flaw in the perk. The fact that STBFL decreases stacks by bodyblocking means that SWF can exploit the perk more then anyone. This by default means that all weaker killer who can potentially lose to SWF-bodyblocking will never be able to remotely compete vs SWF because SWF exploiting the perk.
Completely stomps solo players
This perk against solos is genuinely gross, it's completely unrealistic to expect the randomly chosen obsession to know what they need to do to counter the perk, and that's only if they even realize it's being used in the first place. This perk should notify the obsession in some way.
Sounds like excuse more then an argument.
Works well on a variety of killers
Despite people arguing that STBFL is "only good on the weaker killers" ...this just isn't the case. STBFL is good on spirit, hag, wesker, demogorgon, deathslinger, nemesis, etc. None of whom are in the bottom tier of killers.
The killer does not need to be bottom tier for the perk to improve the killer.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3390854#Comment_3390854
While his cages certainly enable tunneling, that doesn’t make it good design. I am mostly fine with the cages as they are, I just don’t like that being uncaged near PH can lead to an uncounterable down. They would still retain all their other benefits of bypassing survivor perks and being a quick alternative to a hook that allows PH to bypass the time needed to hook a survivor. You’d still be able to tunnel, you just wouldn’t be able to down someone straight out of the cage.
What I mainly want for PH is for him to have a proper addon set that has viable options other than just range. That Scarlet Egg buff they're doing next update is not going to do anything meaningful.
I mean what is the point if you do not bypass the most obvious anti-tunnel/anti-camp mechanic that appears in every match? Base-kit BT. The perks are situational and may not appear in the match. base-kit BT is in every match so it ensures that his torment always gets value. I do not play much of pyramid head because I find him very boring to play but I understand his strategy.
He does not need any add-on's to enable his strategy. he does everything he has to do base-kit. they could put add-on that heavily buff him but its like why? He is already good without needing any changes. I just find him boring to play as and boring to play against. The character is really dry.
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@chibizodo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3390854#Comment_3390854
The torment does have a threat level to it? If you go to the cage then you get rid of torment and vice versa; if you hook and they are dead hook tormented then you can just slice them. So there would still be reason to not step in it. But being hit with a trail while getting free from the cage seems hardly fair. The basekit endurance I feel is necessary since we have basekit endurance after unhook.
slicing them is irrelevant reward. Its tunneling aspect that makes pyramid head strong. the ability to chain a cage into a hooks. Many people rate pyramid head as like. top 5 killer. it has nothing to do with his ranged attack. nothing to do with his mori. everything to do with his cage-tunneling. Base-kit BT is for hooks, it is not for cages. The entire threat of torment and his entire power is that one quirk. nothing else. I am not going pretend that he is enjoyable to play against because... well a lot of survivor dislike hard-tunneling but the guy is hard-tunneller. not much more to say about him.
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@BougieBlackChick said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3390844#Comment_3390844
But they’re not limited. There may be cooldown periods for some things but there’s no hard limit to how many times a bubba or a billy can use their chainsaws to insta down in a match. There's no limit to how many times huntress can use her hatches in a match or trappers traps. So limiting DH to one use (and keep in mind this is one use no matter whether it works or not) doesn’t feel on the same level. And let’s not even get to Myers infinite tier 3.
dead hard is not about its extra health-state, but actual time it wastes from the killer. You see, if a killer on average hooks a survivor team 8 times per match. That means he has to face at least 8 dead hard per trial. that is 8 potencial extra health-states. 8 potencial extra health-states is a lot of slowdown on killer objective.
the new chapter is attempting to limit the amount of slowdown that survivor can stack against the killer. By limiting DH and Healing, their aim is to reduce the prevalence of second chancing from survivor. They are doing same thing with killer. They're nerfing all regression perks with aim to prevent killer from stacking generator regression. Its not so much about instant down as much as it is related to slowdown towards killer objective of hooking.
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@Boons123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3390551#Comment_3390551
I understood you, but my idea does not make this perks OP, but more useful, because its goal is to waste the killer, and whether you are far or close to him, it enhances the style of stealth, and this is part of his game, and I see that loud running sounds and loud rhythmic breathing sounds like (Jeff, David, Meg, and others) do not help these perks
Point correction:I mean the reduction of running sounds between 50% and 75% and not gradually like (overcharge)
I had an idea for a perk that reduces footstep sound by 25%. Reduced breathing sound is a perk and the perk is called Iron will however the perk only works when injured for balance reasons.
Footstep sounds and blood-marks are reason why boon:shadow step is not a very good perk and in my opinion is worse boon perk in the game. At the same time, buffing it could potentially give game-breaking stealth ability. I think large reason why the game has heavy restrictions on stealth perks is because the killer losing the survivor in the chase is highest reward in the game. It goes past endurance perks or anything else in the game because killer cannot eliminate survivors if he cannot find them. Stalling a chase through looping is one thing, but escaping a killer entirely is exponentially more powerful then anything else for survivor
For that reason, stealth has to be balanced in such a way that you need to commit all 4 perks to balance its effectiveness.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
Part of his power with the cages is that no perks on either side are allowed to interact with them (Kinship is an exception, but that’s a bug that’s getting fixed next update so soon that won’t work anymore either). Perks like DS don’t work, but neither do killer perks like PGTW.
I think the cages should grant the basekit BT effects though, because that isn’t a perk and as you said there’s nothing the uncaged survivor can do if PH is nearby.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3390687#Comment_3390687
This mechanic does exist but only if he’s within 5 meters of the cage and his ranged attack has an 8 meter range so he can get around that easily.
pyramid head entirely based around the idea of hard-tunneling people out of cages so base-kit BT would make it harder to tunnel people out of the game thus nerfing his only relevant ability. When you have powers like this based off exclusive tunneling, it shows that tunneling is going nowhere for dbd. it is inherently part of the game. The torment would have no threat-level if they nerfed his cages and I cannot think of anything that could replace that strength of his. Even giving permanent wall-hack with torment debuff would be worse then the inability to tunnel out of cages.
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@Akumakaji said:
I personally found her much more fun to play as long as she was bugged. Some players might accuse me of "only wanting easy matches and exploit bugs", but I think that her "normal" form was nerfed too much and that it's odd when survivors got way more (even perfect) information, then the killer using their power.
This is a general problem with basically all powers, but especially jarring with poor, old spirit.
yeah, her bugged form was interesting to juke. It shows I can still mind-game spirits. shows that when they buff a killer little bit and the change is good, the killer gets played more.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3390347#Comment_3390347
Yes, thats what I think, Trapper does have his own build-in slow down, the disarming doesnt make up the time he has to re-set the trap, but getting randomly trapped and then wasting 16sec to heal surely does.
For those that affected by flashlight like Wraith, Nurse, Spirit, Artist... I really think there should be a unique chest (like Nemesis/Wesker) to get a unique item to do it instead, certainly the number of use should be balanced. I do have a few ideas (just idea, not mean to balance):
- Wraith: perhaps there are 2 Bells spawn at the opposite side of the map, each has 1 time use. Survivors ring a Bell cause Wraith to be uncloaked and unable to cloak for 30sec.
- Huntress: survivors can interact with lockers to remove hatchet. The next time Huntress reload on the affected locker, she gets 1 less hatchet than she should, then that locker stop affected and survivors have to interact with that locker again
something like that.
the base-kit slowdown is healing. If survivor refuse to heal and just gen-rush while injured entire game then killer is forced to slug because he's not getting any slowdown from healing and needs find slowdown in other places.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3390172#Comment_3390172
Where did I ever say people should voluntarily lose on purpose?
This entire post is a hypothetical question, could we, as a community, alter the outcome of the game? People like to throw around the idea that balance is entirely in BHVR's hands, but what if we had more influence than we give ourselves credit for?
That's it, that is all this post is about. Im not asking people to throw matches. Im not asking people to play every match like it is a tournament. Im just asking a question.
my experience with trying to not tunnel or camp is getting 3-4 kills against inexperienced survivor players which I can only assume to be soloq players(?) and 1-2 kills vs good teams. 0 kills if the team is actually playing to win and is genuinely talented although this is extremely rare. I do not see killers playing the game where they win 60% of the time because their opponent cannot play the video game correctly, lose 35% of the time because their opponent is good and get omega obliterated 5% of the time because their opponent is amazing.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3390116#Comment_3390116
What about giving Survivors hatch though?
I know a lot of people who do that, even I do it a lot. I mean you definitely do not see it as much as you use to but people still definitely do it nonetheless.
Also I never said we should balance around casual players, I just said that I do not agree with the idea that BHVR is balancing around casual players, especially when the changes they make are directly harmful to casual players. BHVR uses statistics to make changes, the issue is that BHVR does not know why those statistics are the way that they are.
Your post is asking killer to voluntary lose on purpose to appease survivor players. that is ok for killer player who not competitive and do not care too much about end game result but competitive players that want to win do not like losing.
@Blueberry said:
The majority of people don’t play dbd at a high level which is where the balance problems come out. This in turn leaves the majority of people voicing balance opinions not actually understanding the games balance.
A second point is one that many already mention but it’s an asymmetrical game which means there will always be vastly more vocal people in favor of one side which can give a very skewed perception of the communities opinion on a change.
If you were having surgery done would you want “everyone’s” opinion on how the surgery should be done to matter? Or would you just want the people experienced and trained in surgery getting an opinion on your surgery? Something to think about as we put the “majorities” opinion into determining balance changes when the majorities doesn’t understand the games balance and many have a bias view point.
i think dbd balances killers among highest standard of skill but balances survivor around average standard of skill. that is my opinion to why killer struggle vs higher level survivors. the killer powers are watered down for average players to do well that when the killer player faces experienced survivor that understand nuance of looping and the killer power, the killer is ineffective because the power is balanced around not so good players.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3388794#Comment_3388794
Can mangled even see nerfs while still making it worth running on a perk like sloppy? 20% wouldn't do anything as a nerf but lower would make it not worth it as a perk
A reduction of 5% would make the healing time increase equal to same amount as current servers. Mangled increases healing time by 6 seconds on PTB. at -15% speed, it would increase it by 4 seconds. The exact same increase as live version. Live version is 16+4.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I played a ton of Dredge not long after he came out. He is an interesting Killer, but he just feels slow and sluggish. Using the remnant in chase during loops is risky. Teleporting to lockers usually results in them being locked and by the time they’re open, there’s maybe one gen left or they’re powered.
Nightfall is neat but won’t affect good survivors that much anyway. The main fun thing with him is popping out of lockers during a chase to cut someone off and smack them. Outside of that, I get more enjoyment out of other Killers kits. If they made him move faster while holding the remnant and made him recover faster when letting go/teleporting to it, he’d feel better. Make locker breaks faster. He just needs to be smoother to play, because he just feels sluggish and not worth it sometimes.
It’s just such a shame because I love his design and lore/themes.
1:1 post from my thoughts on him. his locker tp is ineffective at cutting the survivor off. too long recovery and his zoning is countered by switching loops and joining loops.
@Blueberry said:
He’s one of my main killers I play so I’ll list a few issues.
- Addon dependency: He actually has quite a few good and interesting addons so no issues there. However, the base time to escape a locker is way too long to where you speed a good chuck of the match just breaking out of locks which not only hurts his strength but also makes him not fun to a lot of people. This here makes Haddies Calendar required right off the bat. Even with this addon they have more than enough time to react and prevent surprises, without the addon it’s a joke. Second, the main fun for him comes from making mid chase locker teleport outplays. This is unviable without haddies calendar as it’s too slow and gives too much reaction time but the other issue is how slow the teleport is to make this viable without nightfall. This is where Boatkey feels required to me. Boatkey just barely makes this play style playable. So even though he has many interesting addons you could experiment with he’s stuck being forced to run those two to make the mid chase teleport viable which is the main thing making him fun in the first place and honestly even with those two addons it’s barely viable. Good survivors still generally have too much time to react to it so you’re still stuck hoping they’re not the best.
- Nightfall lackluster: I’m referencing the visuals/sound here more so. Essentially a lot of the stealthiness and surprise which is suppose to be the entire point of this is ruined because they make him light up like a Christmas tree and easy to see. Secondly he’s ridiculously loud. So even if you don’t see him you end up hearing him a mile away.
- His volume: this is similar to nightfall sound issue but in general it’s harder to mind game things with him because his sounds are so loud that they always know where you’re at in the loop even if they can’t see you.
- Lockers/locks/map dependency: Similar to the addon dependency section. Some maps lack lockers and some have extremely bad placement. On top of this the correlation between time it takes you to break out of a lock and the time it takes survivors to lock them is all out of wack. Breaking out of a locker needs to be faster at base and the animation to lock a locker for survivors shouldn’t be as easy as it is, it should take them at least twice the speed it currently does. It’s nearly all reward no cost.
- Bugs: Main thing here is how they STILL force you to always come out of the locked locker if there’s two lockers connected and only ones locked. This has been in the game since his PTB and still continues to now. The survivors know this and abuse it by always only locking one at a time if they’re connected. Please fix, it’s bad design.
TLDR: Fix Bugs. Faster teleport outside of Nightfall. Faster locker exit outside of Nightfall. Longer time to lock lockers. More lockers/Better locker placement on some maps.
That’s the main issues with him. I do wish they’d remove the “thud” sound of you teleporting to lockers though and in turn shorten the timer it takes for the visual to appear showing you’re in there. The main warning to survivors should be the sound of breaking out rather than the teleport. This would create so many more mind game opportunities which is what makes him fun.
I cannot imagine someone main a stealth character that light up like a Christmas tree and is easily loudness killer in loops.
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you can beat these teams with stronger killers. its just not very fair with items. shrug.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
I remember way back when, when they increased healing time to 16 seconds up from 12, and buffed Botany from 10/15/20 to 11/22/33, the increase in healing time came with an increase in recovery time. To make up for this, however, maximum recovery was increases to 95% (previously it was 85%) so that you'd spend the same amount of time healing someone from max recovery. It still took longer to reach the max point, however.
So, I'd assume it's very much the same as it was back then in late 2018.
so your saying this increases dying state healing time to 48 seconds? that means it will take 45.6 seconds to recover. wow that's pretty nice for slugging.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384763#Comment_3384763
They need to rework bad killers and change them into something like wesker, where there is some sort of map pressure or mobility built into their kit.
they are reworking survivors. they will not give every killer mobility, instead they'll reduce survivor mobility by eliminating their ability to heal. After all, you do not need mobility in-chase to counter shift-w if everyone is instant down the entire game.
I think defining fact of the stronger killer is their ability to degrade health-states and their ability to degrade pallets without drawback.
If you look at 3 top-tier killers in the game which in my opinion are Blight, Nurse and Wesker. they degrade health-states really well and can counter pallets. Looking at obvious ones. Nurse degrades pallets by blinking through them and when she hits a survivor. A survivor gains distance through health-state but she can gap-close that distance in like 5-6 seconds as her 2 blinks grant a collective 30 meter gap-closing.
Blight pallet play is a lot weaker. He can technically win-pallets if you practice doing Lilith Omen Hug tech tricks with blight though I think that vast majority of blight's are not as dedicate to practice that. The way blight can counter pallet is by breaking the pallet and when you break a pallet, pallet breaking is so slow that the survivor is designed to get to next loop whenever you break a pallet. Blight fundamentally ignores this rule because he has very low wind-up to begin his lethal rush and he can gap-close all distance from pallet breaks such that he can hit people between loops. that is how he counters pallets. His C33 add-on exggerates this strength even more though some people want it nerfed.
Obviously blight also counter health-states. other killers when they a hit a survivor, they suffer lengthy cooldown to wiping their weapon and survivor gains speed boost. Once again this wastes killer time. Just like distance from pallet breaks, his speed allows him to instant gap-close health-state loss. His add-on Alchemist ring further exaggerates this by refunding blight tokens when hitting a survivor. Just like c33, People want this add-on nerfed.
Wesker almost same as blight. wesker is weaker at dropped pallets then blight is but just like blight, he can gap-close distance of pallet breaks using his two virulent bounds and this logic also applies to health-states.
Its not raw mobility like Sadako, Billy, Demo etc. that hurt killers. Its their in-chase mobility towards making distance that survivor creates often through forced interaction that hurts other killers. I think if health-states had more balanced distance gain and pallet design was not instant-break oriented. those other killers would be in a far better spot.
@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/369626/mobility-wins-games
There are 5 killer attributes.
- Movement speed - either by teleport or by chase power (not looking at 110 vs 115)
- Anti loop strength - some killers have basically none and Nurse on the other end of the spectrum is "complete shutdown"
- Lethality in chase - is a function of the first two properties. Look at Nemesis for example - he has anti loop "if the survivors are blue". He has no movement power. Therefore his chase lethality is actually quite low. But he's miles ahead of Pig Because Nemesis can instantly break pallets.
- 4v1 potential - this is a measure of how well you can pressure multiple survivors. Pig and Doctor have this to a limited degree because you are forced to do "something else" as a side objective. Pinhead and Nemesis have this to a medium degree as there is a strong game element to hinder you. Nurse and Blight also have this ability but not in the way that you might think. Their chase powers are so good that they can already be in chase #2 with the first survivor hooked before many other killers would still be stuck on chase #1.
- Detection - this is the attribute that doesn't matter. Unfortunately it's doctor's "main thing" and as a result he is a very poor archetype. If you are an experienced killer you have good game sense and you know where people are. You don't need a "detection" power but you might bring one perk for that role to assist you during the game. One thing about this category is that movement powers also give you increased detection. How so? Well once upon a time when I bothered to play Billy from 2016-2019 it was very easy to startle people with Billy using a chainsaw sprint. If you suddenly appear 4m away from someone on a generator their only choice is to start running. Once again we have Nurse and Blight who also have this attribute.
Billy has "ok movement" thanks to the overheat. Also overall his mobility was far superior in 2016-2019 because maps were designed in a way where he could almost always zoom from point A to point B without worrying about hitting a wall - oops that's gone. He has basically no antiloop either thanks to the 2 most importnat addons getting nerfed. He has potentially strong chase lethality but in reality he doesn't because loops are safe in 2023 in a way they were not in previous versions of the game. You're almost crazy for not using Bam with him. Billy doesn't get fast downs so therefore he doesn't get 4v1 anymore. As mentioned - depending on map he might be able to detect people but that stupid "yell" before a sprint gives him away.
I think most of those attributes are kinda irrelevant. instant down is band aid to imbalance health-states. 115% m/s in current safe pallet design is barely relevant. The distance gain in catch-up on pallets can be calculated and outskill by survivors though most survivor are not good at looping. 4vs1 is another band aid to pre-shift w from gens and hold-w in generator. Like instead of having an ability that actively counter force time waste, you let generator defence/slowdown mechanic account for time-waste instead of having an active ability that allows you to outplay the survivor. Most survivor do not actively hide from the killer. that is why detection is not needed. The killers are weak in chase. Just see release skull merchant for why m1 killers are not good at chasing and resort to 3 gen tactics. All that information means nothing if you cannot capitalize on it.
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pain res is dead because tunneling is meta. pain res is something like grim embrace now. low rewards for spreading hooks.
dead hard will still get used. on average, each survivor would get to use it 2-3 times per hook-state. Now you get to use once per game on average. Tunneling the first person counters DH. I wouldn't be surprised if the perk get nerfed again to only work on death door similar to bloodrush where it can only be used on death hook. TBA on DH. I don't think the perk will be number 1 but I do think the perk will be semi-popular. Just not as popular as it is now.
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from my perceptive, I do not think players want power-creep perks. They want perks are serviceable to use and feel good to use. Dead hard feels good to use because the activation of the perk is controlled by the survivor at precise moment they want it to be used. Lithe on other hand is controlled by fast vaulting which is not in the survivor's control when being chased by the killer. its restricting the survivor control for when they want to use the perk to make an impact with it. Lithe would feel better to use if you could press E during a vault and control which vault gives you a speed boost. This not power-creeping the perk to be better then DH as the rewards are similar in nature but it making perk feel better to use.
The same can be said about killer perks. Nowhere to hide and BBQ are both aura reading perks. They're used fairly frequently. Nowhere to hide is not power-creep BBQ and BBQ is not power-creeping nowhere to hide. these perks are competing for a slot in information and either perk provides decent information when triggered. A perk that is getting buffed in information category is gearhead. Is Gearhead good enough to use in place of BBQ or Nowhere to hide? I am not entirely sure as I have not tried the perk. Just from reading it, 30 second is short time and specific skill-checks are drawback to perhaps avoid it. If the duration was 45 seconds or it worked on any skill-check, not just good or great, then I could see people using it. suppose that gearhead starts getting used, it does not mean that bbq/nowhere to hide are all sudden bad perks to use for info. Giving more options is always welcoming for the player.
Most perks have different functionalities in dbd. Its very hard to compare a perk like hysteria compare to a perk like franklin demise. they're fundamentally different perks. Improving hysteria such that it get used more is not power-creeping franklin demise. I see power-creep argument as more of excuse to not improve perks. This is just my opinion.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
It still turns 24 second heals into 16 seconds and it allows solo q players to coordinate heals better with the aura read
Its still one perk that gives botany and part empathy to the entire team. It's obviously not going to be as good as it is now but i don't think it's anywhere close to dead.
Healing perks in general will be a lot better. They were always pushed to the side cause basekit healing was strong enough
Autodictact for example at 5 stacks will save 12 seconds by base for each skillcheck and it will be easier to get stacks with long heal times.
COH healing is dead. COH healing is like the other boons now. it won't get used. The setup vs reward is not there. Botany is unlikely to get used because long time ago, healing used to be 12 seconds and in the same patch, botany used to be like 13-22% increase. botany got buffed to 33% and the perk still was not used. Now healing got nerfed again but this time botany is 50%. the story is same. Botany reverts healing nerfs but people will not use botany because it makes too little difference. New COH is botany knowledge but it requires setup to place totem and you need walk to the totem with another survivor to heal.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383010#Comment_3383010
It really does feel like it. What I didn't mention in my original post was that I frequently play in a 4 man SWF too. We have a combined ~20k hrs and track our results. Over the last two weeks, killers managed a grand total of zero hooks in 7 of our games, just north of 10% of our total matches. So we are all either individually awful players who combine to form the MegaZord when we're in SWF and return to our normal selves in solo queue, or matchmaking in this game is awful.
awhile back, they reduced buffer because killer players complained that their matches were too sweaty/difficult. I vaguely remember the number but I do not want to say it. Its mostly related to that. SWF is really strong though. a good 80% of killer have no chance to compete against swf because a lot of killers are balanced really bad players and not balanced around challenge and competitive gameplay experience. it is little sad, but that is just how the game is.
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@stvnhthr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379695#Comment_3379695
The Devs do not believe solo queue exists. They always make changes based off of what killer mains say about swf. Solo queue is all I play and the state of the game has continually goes down hill since I started playing. Healing times are too long, killers who complain about quick heal times with items forget all of their perks and ons which make healing nearly impossible. BEHAVIOUR may not actively hate solo players, but they always ALWAYS ALWAYS give them the shaft.
yeah because if your killer main, your only real challenge is SWF. Its sad to say but soloq is not the highest level of play for dbd. it is lowest level of play.
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@ad19970 said:
I think she is generally very well designed, but her balance is problematic in the current state of the game. In the upcoming patch, she probably won't be a problem anymore however.
So i think she is going to be fine for both sides very soon.
I think its reverse. skull merchant is in a decent position currently in the game because of overcharge and call of brine however her strategy is getting completely dumpster at base-kit, so she will very bad. The unfortunate aspect about trapping type killers is that even with new changes, they will still be using same strategy with nerfed perks but now they'll be losing more often.
they will be switching positions with stealth killers. stealth killer were often terrible because of healing times. now they will be a lot better but these camping-type 3 gen killers such as hag, trapper and this girl right here. They will be in a more rough spot. I guess that's alright because most people hate these killers anyway so whatever.
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@Pumpkinbros said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382177#Comment_3382177
again, if there is a camping killer it is required to have 2 survivors fully healed, this mainly applies to m1 killers, if the killer brings sloppy and it is quite literally impossible to counter an m1 killer camping because it takes too long to heal since the hook timers aren't long enough, then that is an unfair game mechanic, if it takes 60 seconds for survivors to die, and 60 seconds to heal 2 survivors then there's nothing you can do, that's the point I'm making, as a killer, it Is not impossible to stop a gen from getting fixed I guess try the math on your gen perks and get back to me on how it's impossible
but what has been presented to you is in fact an impossible scenario to counter, and that's why I differentiate this from killer, killer is getting a lot of value from this, you don't need slow-down perks anymore, healing just became a burden to survivors I've heard multiple top 1% players/streamers say that this is basically the death of dbd if this goes live, and them also being primarily killer mains makes it all the more important
Ohtofu 4k percent of 90% as deathslinger
Vulpixia she's possibly the best nurse main you'll ever come across
Otzdarva, he's just a legend we already know about him
all these people have come forward and said negative things about these healing changes, you need to slowdown and think about how telling this is before you double down on this
this is why once upon time, borrow time used to apply to unhooker granting them the endurance status effect. you know... an anti-camp mechanic. the explanation you are given is not any difference then facing an instant down killer camping hooks. This would allow you to save survivors when injured & vs instant down. You definitely argue that a perk that allows you to for go healing is possibility too strong but that is just how camping is currently balanced.
The counter is being good at solo looping and relying less of crutch health-states/body blocking to fix errors. Your describing a skill issue. if 3 people are injured and 1 person get hooked, the killer is meant to be in the advantage and you need recover. its successful killer snowball.
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Yes, you will get punished for playing poorly as survivor.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
Yep. All they had to do was change medkits and CoH. Nerfing base healing is unnecessary and overkill.
i think at worst, they might increase healing speed to lesser value like 20 seconds instead of 24 to be less extreme. I think if their objective was to make healing slower then they could buffed mangled to higher degree like instead of -20% healing, they could went for -30%. That likely would been a bit less polarizing of a change.
I could see healing going from 24->20 but I do not see them removing it completely.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380302#Comment_3380302
Survivors are paying for it though. DH and CoH, the two most powerful survivor perks, are getting nerfed, along with medkits, which were all overpowered and it’s good they are being changed. The base healing nerf was not necessary, but the medkit/CoH nerfs were long overdue.
pain res, cob and overcharge were easily most powerful regression perks available for killer. if killer cannot regress generators effectively, then they need another means of slowdown. that slowdown is healing. the killer perks getting slaughtered required base-kit compensations. base-kit slower healing is good compensation for said changes. At least they're being fair in this patch notes for both killer and survivor.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380654#Comment_3380654
Well ideally this will make hits matter more and slow the game down naturally if the killer plays better while simultaneously nerfing gen regression perks which seems to be the route they’re going. Only additional change I would do is some kind of incentive to make them heal and discourage just staying injured and rushing gens. This may seem annoying but remember we’d be simultaneously nerfing the gen slow downs as well. So yeah we will see, but this isn’t entirely my scenario.
you mean like thanotophobia? I think that is too harsh. For me personally, I find this change very unfun but I am always willing to give it a try. I just think that an arm race for healing speed vs debuff healing speed is almost worse then regression vs second chances. I think improving killer chases and making the killer able to punish misplays by speeding up the game for them would been a better direction. We shall see over time. For reference, I love this playstyle as killer but hate going against this play-style as survivor.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380415#Comment_3380415
Not the same comparison, healing nerf is the base nerf, not perk.
50% base healing nerf is the same to Gen base time dropped to 60sec.
i consider OC/COB/Pain res base game because most of killer were using these perks. If your using perks, your changing the base game with said perks such that when those perks get nerfed, you are weakening the killers base-kit. All that changed for survivor base-game is med-kit healing was reduced from 16->24 seconds and their healing perk COH will changed for a different perk(Build to last).
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@AssortedSorting said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380654#Comment_3380654
If Survivors heal less the Killer will likely get more downs (applying more pressure from Hook rescues) which should balance it out (but also highlight camping/tunneling more), or Survivors will start using more Pallets earlier, which may bring the discussion to Pallet volume, which in turn might be a non-issue if the more frequently dropped pallets means Killers are able to get more downs later in the game.
Play vs Legion and Plague. Nobody heals vs Legion and Plague. you play super safe with pallets and you rush generarors in early game vs the killer. If they get a hook and start camping it, then you need heal vs legion to do hook-trades. Its same for plague. it is not a very fun gameplay loop but maybe I am wrong and Blueberry is right. You will be having this gameplay vs every killer with new healing changes. Rushing generator will be prominent then ever. anyways, we had this conversation long ago.
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@Blueberry said:
Still a very good perk, just not busted like before. I still imagine we'll seen one CoH in most SWF groups.
hey blueberry. remember our conversation about med-kits like 1 months ago? It seems that your vision of weakening healing came true. I remember you saying that this meta will be really fun for survivor and I argued that weakening healing will make survivors heal less and rush gens more making the game a lot less fun for survivor. I guess we are about to see whether the game is more fun or less fun for survivor. I suspect boon circle of healing is dead perk and new meta will be 4 med-kit+build to last. I wonder if I am right about my prediction that less healing makes the game less fun for survivor.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380568#Comment_3380568
Sloppy is redundant when survivors dont heal at all.
if you think 2 survivors willing to spend 60sec to heal each other instead of 52sec doing Gen..
its not redundant. survivors with a med-kit will be able to heal in 24 seconds. with add-on, you can heal total of 2 times. With Build to last(Felix perk), You can go into locker and recharge your med-kit from 0->100%. This is 4 total heals. Sloppy butcher will easily become new meta. Build to last+Med-kit are new meta for survivor. Once again, Perk A(COH) being replaced by perk B(Build to last).
On killer, since pain res, cob and overcharge have been neutered. Healing slowdown will be most popular slowdown to run. In addition to sloppy butcher, you will see be seeing Jolt+Eruption+Deadlock+Sloppy butcher. You might not see these perks all run at once, but you will be seeing combination of these perks as new gen defence meta.
Survivor only need change 1 perk to fix their meta and just keep using same items. Killer need change their entire build. huge changes for killer. very minor changes for survivor.
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@Trollinmon said:
I think we'll make it will be very good if you are rocking a medkit otherwise why wouldn't you use botany knowledge? There is no conditional while the healing speed is 16s vs 12s.
its not enough difference. botany. generally when your healing, at least in soloq, your only healing once or twice per game and most efficient heal you can do is heal under hook which we'll make it is designed for. I think people will use build to last+med-kits for 4 self-heals and those that are not using med-kit will be using we'll make it while playing injured for most of the game.
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@Laluzi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380238#Comment_3380238
I'm 100% positive this is because of that same thing that got them to nerf Marvin's Blood and Toy Sword. Whenever an addon is used significantly more than others, they have to whack it, because it's dominant and that means it's OP.
...Which is, in Billy's case, ignoring that most of his addon spread is complete shite and Engravings are about the only worthwhile addons he has left. Them and lopro, anyway.
It's really sad. Billy doesn't deserve this. He's very difficult to play and this is just kicking the players who really do have the skill to use his saw effectively in chase. Sometimes I just do not understand what BHVR is trying to do.
well that is exactly why a lot of killer are where they are. they only balance off numbers. they probably looked at pick-rate of his add-on and noticed that the highest kill-rate add-on with highest pick-rate were doom engraving and yellow engraving. As a result, they decided to adjust these add-on.
The clown is probably same. they probably see that clown's kill-rate is vastly lower when using other add-on's but one add-on stand-out the most. Pinky finger. This makes sense, he is not very good killer at base-kit. They probably see pick-rate of pinky finger and cheap gin bottle as super high and whenever these add-on are used, the kill-rate of clown is higher.
The funny part is when they say following:
it seems like this downside was not enough to bring it in line with other Ultra Rare Add-ons.
I wonder what their standard for iri add-on is what they are shooting for. Do they want every iri add-on to be complete worthless like these add-on's that nobody uses? Is this standard they're looking at? /shrug
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@Chaos999 said:
Can't wait for survivors to start running self care again and heal for 40 seconds straight, instead of working gens.
On the other hand, playing plague now will actually buff survivor healing rather than neutralizing it.
40 seconds? the total healing time for self-care is 68 seconds. if you are healing under sloppy butcher. it will be 85 seconds. It is almost same length as 90 second generator.
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@AMOGUS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/369096/the-survivor-entitlement-is-insane
Complaining about 50% healing speed nerf is entitlement?
Killers lost 150% regression from COB and OC nerfs. They also lose Pain res. Survivor will easily still heal 4 times with a single med-kit using Build to last perk. Killers have to find new perks as their previous ones were killed.
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@DudelPuma said:
CoH is from a great Perk for solo players changed to a swf Perk, you place as swf CoH communicice with your team and heal up
im ready for: days after the patch, what happen with solo q they genarel dosent doing gens so well, but now they are perma half life cant self heal they spending much time to find another one to get healed, its clearly we can say RIP solo q, I mean don't just play a few rounds of solo q, just play solo for hours and days, it's absolutely miserable with broken med kits, CoH, then look at the solo q when it all comes, I mean generally the heal from 16 up Increasing 24sec is far too hard for the survivor, I can't say whether many will stop with survivor... but what I can say with high probability is that solo q will be unplayable, many ppl will play swf or even go over to killer , just take a look
new soloq perk is med-kit+Build to last.
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@almofan1001 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380364#Comment_3380364
Sorry love, will need to actually use skill and brain while looping instead of pressing E for underserved 2nd chance.
at least they're nerfing survivor base-healing speed. so I think its fair trade.
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@DudelPuma said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379910#Comment_3379910
Yes, that's how I know it from many people, which is really sad and a pity, I mean bhvr gets new players, they don't want that anymore... losing many experienced players is ok, isn't it? i mean i am also an example i have 9k hrs in dbd for over 4 years and haven't played dbd for weeks, wait until cs2 comes out so i can switch, because i got bored of the game as an experienced player, the matchmaking doesn't work at all, if you play with others who have acuh 5,6,7k+ hrs in a swf it's too boring and too easy, you play solo q you get people in who are so bad that a killer who has 500h finishes you and in the end bashes you, as a killer you only have 2 extremes either the swf that comes to the level of yours or solo q 500h Timmy and his friends who want to have some fun, dbd is just a ruin that is milked by bhvr, no love is put into it ( my feeling)
I completely feel your pain. soloq and healing is well... not very good. in SWF, grouping is really easy. for example healing takes 16 seconds, so if two people heal another survivor. it takes 8 second to heal. that is ridiculously fast. Its not even 1/10 of generator to heal. 3 health-states can be recovered in 24 seconds.
How much can single health-state give to the survivor in term of looping? 20 seconds holding forward+there is a lot of pallets, so it extends chases massively.
In soloq, finding people to group heal and committing to group heal is really hard. At base-kit, you have little no information where your team is and your only hope to find people is searching random generators using gen UI. It is not a time efficient experience. People can also heal you in risky spots and sometimes killer can interrupt you while swf can guaranteed that they are healing when the killer is on the other side of the map chasing another survivor. They're much less likely to get interrupted and there is just way better coordination going on for healing.
those healing change are SWF-targeted. With new healing times, it will take SWF to heal 12 seconds for each heal so across 3 heals, it would take them 36 seconds. that is very balanced in principal if only soloq was as efficient as SWF in doing actions in a timely manner.
I suspect that soloq will be forced to run med-kits upcoming chapter and healing perks to compete with killers. So you will expect to see Build to last and We'll make it on every soloq survivor to be able to heal under hook and Build to last to extend med-kits lifespan. Heck, people might even run Autodidact as a perk.
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For killer, Since all their generator defence has been nuked to oblivion, Sloppy butcher will be only meaningful slowdown they can run which survivor will be countering with med-kits+build to last or we'll make it/autodidact. The only other regression perks you might see are Jolt+Eruption as these are only reliable regression perks left. their % are not very high but it is only thing left.