DBDVulture
DBDVulture
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@Crowman said:
Why aren't the devs realizing that no one wants to play against swf?
Nurse has already been reworked and survivors will never be happy with nurse as it's unlikely the devs will change how her power functions. Nurse will always be able to blink and survivors will always complain about it. Same with Legion. Legion will always be the killer who runs around putting survivors into deep wounds and survivors will always complain about it.
People rage quitting is not a valid reason to change a killer as there's no way to guarantee the rage quit was because of the killer.
SWF is not fair to anyone playing the game solo. This includes both survivors and the killer.
SWF should be limited to : No character, item, perk or offering repeats.
This would prevent bully squads and still allow you to play with your friends. We have plenty of item types so everyone can have an item. We have two perks that let you get a specific item from a chest. We even have a perk designed to have no item in your hand so everyone can be happy.
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@GoshJosh said:
I disagree with basekit Unbreakable, but basekit BT is a good thing (except it should not extend to end game). Basekit DS would be great too!
Ten seconds of basekit BT is too strong. The devs addressed the survivor's gripe that there is too much tunneling but did not address the killer gripe that gens go too fast. Base kit corrupt should have been given to the killer. And then you could change Corrupt Intervention to be a "mid game" lock out perk that triggers after a new set of conditions.
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@_VTK_ said:
It's always the same, when someone comes and says "Hey, I have an easy solution for this hard problem" it doesn't work.
SWF could be very easily adjusted. Add new rule : No character, perk, item or offering may be repeated in a SWF. Add new inferface to show non repeated perks over each SWF member's head in blue. Add new interface to show repeated perks over a SWF member's head in red.
Now you can see what your allies are using in the lobby. You can't be a bully SWF squad using the same item/perk combo. You can't trick the killer by all looking the same. You can still play with your friends and you get to see their perks before the game.
Note: loadouts would be locked when you hit ready up inside the SWF group to queue for a lobby.
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@Config said:
I will name some and u guys can continue the list, name what it is, explain why it's stupid and propose a change to it:
Medkits: pressure killer, makes some strategies completely unviable, BY MILES the best item in the game. Either they should allow 1 self heal, nerf the speed to something like 24-32 seconds or just allow you to heal other teammates at a much hier speed something like 6 seconds.
Nurse: nurse
Eruption: being unable to do ######### for 25 seconds because the killer kicked a gen before is big bs, the perk need a big chance to be close to the other slow downs after the 6.1.0 update.
Keep going :)
Medkits need a rework. Generally speaking it will take you somewhere between 30-90 seconds to hit a survivor depending on how good they are, what killer you are playing, where they are on the map and the RNG of the terrain. Using a medkit takes 9-32 seconds which is stupid.
Brown kit should be self care speed with exactly 1 heal if you don't miss a check.
Yellow kit should be 25% faster with maybe 1.5 charges (you get 2 with strong addons)
There should not be a way to heal yourself faster with a kit than another survivor could heal you normally. No setup should ever give you more than 2 heals with a medkit.
Things would be different if we changed the Mori into a universal type of debuff (kind of like what VHS does). Imagine for example if killers could use a secret addon and on hit applied sloppy butcher by using the SB offering (which would replace mori). I'm not suggesting we implement an offering to replace a perk but hopefully you get the idea that a new effect could be created.
-"Eruption"
On paper the changes sounded fine but it just ends up punishing people who are not playing on coms far too much. Eruption should be a perk that if the generator is kicked and a survivor goes down then that generator cannot be interrupted from regressing for 45 seconds (and any non hex totem perk affecting regression speed such as Overcharge or CoB is applied but not ruin for example). Nobody ever wants to lose control of their character.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3226105#Comment_3226105
"Frame skipping" as you call it is not unfair and is extremely easy for killers to play around. Honestly how many times have you been outplayed by a clickspin and not been able to play around it as killer as if it made no difference?
Which brings me to my point, if a mechanic was already weak and had a low success rate of actually being useful,
Why nerf it unnecessarily and not just leave it in the game?
The new flashlight makes the game feel more clunky and less fun.
Counterpoint : looking at the developer live streams of when they play this game tells me they are bad at the game relative to my skill level and that things like frame skipping were too effective against them. They didn't want you to bully killers so it's gone. Macro clicking is gone too and that's a lovely change to remove BM.
You're welcome to go play killer in VHS.
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@[Deleted User] said:
This update is really disappointing for anyone who enjoys using flashlights.
it was really unnecessary to nerf flashlights as much as they did and this patch feels rushed and unfinished. Why do survivors hold flashlights like samurai swords in the lobbies now lol? I thought that was just a ptb thing.
Before you say "just because you cant clicky doesn't mean its a nerf"
I am not talking about the clicky (strobing), here is why this patch nerfs flashlights.
1.) The flashlight angle is now terrible, its extremely low and you have to aim really high to get blinds, what is the point of changing the aim and f***cking with everyone's muscle memory for no reason?
2.) when you click you are forced to hold out your beam for a long time even after letting go of m2 meaning you can no longer use flashlights to help with 360s nor can you readjust your timing with a reclick.
3.) the cost of clicking your flashlight consumes so much battery because you no longer stop flashlight-ing after letting go of M2. You press M2 and it keeps using the beamer for 2 seconds even after you let go of M2
The solution:
-Allow survivors to use their flashlight and immediately turn off their flashlights when they let go of M2 just like how it used to be except now don't let them re-click immediately after letting go of M2 to prevent strobing.
-general buff to all flashlights charge sizes (increase the battery of all beams)
-stop changing the flashlight aim and revert it back to what it used to be.
It seems like with every patch bhvr is trying to make this game less fun.
-"when you click you are forced to hold out your beam for a long time even after letting go of m2 meaning you can no longer use flashlights to help with 360s nor can you readjust your timing with a reclick."
Frame skipping is unfair when it makes your hitbox move in unusual ways. If the hitbox was actually fully on the survivor it might be different.
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@tippy2k2 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3225824#Comment_3225824
What if I suck with nurse and blight?
Asking...for a friend
Essentially you can play the next tier down with one of about 8 killers: Pyramid Head, Plague, LF, Nemesis, Huntress, etc.
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@tippy2k2 said:
Unfortunately there's not a ton you can do about it until you either get the experience you need to know how to handle them. Nine times out of ten, your best weapon against a bully squad is slugging and patrolling the slugged person. It sucks, it's tedious as hell, and it's super boring but a lot of times it's all you can really do against them.
It's not very useful advice but all you can do is try not to let them get to you. If that means you have to just walk away from the game in the middle of it and let them bully each other instead, so be it. I know it's frowned upon to go AFK but if they're gonna be jerks and not actually play the game and just try to beat you down instead, F'em, walk away. Ideally you can just play and not let it bug you but I know from experience that is WAY easier said than done.
How to handle them is play nurse or blight. At a high enough skill level that is the only solution.
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@Xord said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3221314#Comment_3221314
Don'ty even answer to this guy, he is a known camper/tunneler around here, makes posts complaining about how changes makes it difficult to tunnel and camp.
He even once said "but survivors are tunneling generators"... not really worth your time.
Never did you ever play survivor and run to a generator, get it to 33% and for no reason at all run around the map to find another generator and get that one to 33% and then finally find a third generator somewhere else and get that generator to 33% progress before going back to the first generator to get it from 33-66% (or 0-66% if the killer touched it).
You find a generator and finish it. Why? Because finished generators can't be stopped. Likewise dead survivors can't be resurrected. Killer and survivor are both played more efficiently when you finish discrete parts of the objective. Finishing a generator is infinitely better than getting a generator to 90% and have it be reset to 0% progress. Likewise as killer you hook one person three times to end them. You might be going for three states on two people so you can "one hook" a third survivor at the end of the game. If you want to lose then you will hook each person once before ever hooking anyone twice.
Tunneling and gen rushing are the same idea applied to both game roles. Tunneling is not fun for survivors and gen rushing is not fun for the killer. You can't just ask to remove one without dealing with the other.
@Deathstroke said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3221696#Comment_3221696
Ds should be 3,5s stun and faster animation then it should also disable killer power for 5s so that would put every killer on equal position facing it.
Here's a crazy idea....
Give the killers with the possibility to cheese DS a 5 second stun (Nurse, Blight, Clown, PH, Plague, etc).
Then give all the other killers a 3 second stun.
The only problem I see with this is that Plague should only get a 5 second stun if she has her spit power. But do you think the devs can code the game so that the killers can be separated into two different DS categories? Much less do you think they could give plague a 3 second stun without her power and a 5 second stun with her power?
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@ArthurVeloso said:
Decisive strike was nerfed to the ground because you wanted to shake up the meta. However, this just 1.5 useable seconds to reach a pallet or window is just a bad joke. Nurses can kill you almost immediately after it, blights can do the same, huntresses and deathslingers too, and even Demogorgon and the plague can get away with it. Not forgetting to mention the fact that this perk deactivates at the end game, what makes it more useless. If you want to deactivate decisive strike at the end game, make it at LEAST 4 second stun and able to use 2 times in a match, so it will severely punish players for tunneling people to death just to have an easy win.
DS has been an abusive perk for years. Now it is a risk/reward appropriate perk where you have a chance to earn an escape from being tunneled.
The devs promised to make the stun 3 seconds because enduring used to counteract part of the stun. There was a ~2 year delay while that got sorted out so you had plenty of time to enjoy the way it worked before.
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@Gandor said:
Note to everyone in this discussion. @DBDVulture is the same person who insists tunneling generators is a thing + the one that said 6.1 patch was survivor-sided, because it nerfed some killer perks.
Take everything he said with huge grain of salt.
Low tier gameplay was improved by the last patch but it was only made worse at high tiers because the perks that worked against SWF don't work anymore.
If you disagree it tells me where you are in the rankings.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3213886#Comment_3213886
He didn't "nail" anything. All he did was create a false narrative that solo queue is actually fine, and swf needs to be brought down to the level of solo queue.
Neither of you like swf, you've made that much clear, but don't think people are going to be on board with the idea of punishing them for playing with their friends, and it is punishing them for playing with their friends if you nerf swf.
The majority of swf are average, at best. They're not calling out their location, the killer's location, how to counter the killer's perks, where not to run to, where a gen they've been pushed off is.
They're calling out basic stuff ahead of time that you'd find out anyway like who the killer is, what perks they're running or possibly running, whether or not they're on a gen, if shack pallet's gone and if they're going for the rescue or not.
Your entire argument hinges on the existence of organised comp squads, who are in the extreme minority. You know who else is in the extreme minority? High MMR streamers. They aren't who the game is balanced around.
DBD is no longer a stealth game. The game as evolved. Times have changed. Solo Queue needs to brought up to the level of SWF. That means things like Basekit Kindred, and HUD Icons that tell them who's doing what. It does not mean putting them on par with the likes of Hens or Oracle.
How good a swf is comes down to experience, and how well they communicate. So when I say solo queue needs to be brought up to the level of swf, I'm saying they need the same ability to make informed decisions like swf can. The rest is up to how well play.
Giving out extra perks like candy because of how much information can be relayed at the highest level is absurd. Solo queue doesn't need to be spoonfed wins, and neither does the killer.
The changes I propose are that solo queue gets a lite version of base kindred that only shows them the killer's aura within 6m, alongside HUD Icons that show who's on a generator, traveling, cleansing/blessing, unhooking, and healing. That distance is on par with Reassurance. Maps can also be reworked to be smaller and have less strong, safe loops.
These changes don't affect swf. They don't get nerfed, but they also don't get anything out of it since they can already communicate what they're currently doing and whether or not the killer's camping.
The one area killers need buffs in right now is generators. Kicking generators should be more rewarding. So instead of the current 2.5% kicking a generator removes, which is rather pitiful, it can be increased to 7.5%. That's triple its current value. That, to me at least, is more than a fair exchange.
If all of this is still not good enough, because tournament this, comp that, then you can agree to disagree. Not that any of this will ever come to fruition with the direction this game is going.
That being said, I wouldn't mind trading a nerf to toolboxes, the removal of BNP, a rework to Overzealous, Hyperfocus and Prove Thyself if it gets you to agree with my proposed changes.
-"Neither of you like swf,"
SWF is fun when you play survivor but makes the game miserable for killer. Likewise playing against bully squads as killer occasionally trains you to always tunnel survivors out of the game. It's the advantage from SWF that causes the problems.
-"The majority of swf are average, at best. They're not calling out their location"
There is no way for you to know this. I play with some people who have been playing less than 6 months with under 1000 hours and they did this without any prompt from me.
"That means things like Basekit Kindred"
That would be wickedly overpowered if you really stopped and thought about it. But that's not something you are likely to do.
-"So instead of the current 2.5% kicking a generator removes, which is rather pitiful, it can be increased to 7.5%"
For kicking generators to rewarding it needs to be something like base kit old Pop with 20% total regression removed for every hook. Or regression needs to be base the same speed as a single survivor. Or kicking a generator makes the generator not able to be repaired for 30 seconds (and this could be buffed with a perk that has no cooldown that adds 30 seconds per kick).
What you're offering is like if I said killers get Lethal Pursuit base kit and survivors get 7.5% faster chest opening.
-"Giving out extra perks like candy because of how much information can be relayed at the highest level is absurd."
Low level SWF give out at least 4 perks worth of information. Players like me give out somewhere between 12-16 perks worth of information. People like Hens call out never ending pings and clock positions for each map/generator - lets just call this 20 perks.
-"If all of this is still not good enough, because tournament this, comp that, then you can agree to disagree."
The tournament rules are put in because DBD is incredibly one sided once you get over "medium" skill levels and start playing in a SWF. The reality is that playing in a SWF is not fair to survivors or the killer who is playing solo.
Imagine for a moment that instead of giving the perks we had the option to increase/decrease the killer's terror radius. Each killer would either increase or decrease their TR as a preset option as part of their loadout. This would do nothing until they go in a SWF game. For each linked person in a SWF the TR would go up or down 25% so that a 40m terror radius would become 60m with a single 2 man SWF and would become 80m basekit vs a 4 man SWF. Or a killer could choose to reduce their terror radius by the same value so that base kit the killer had no TR vs a 4 man SWF. Perks that require a terror radius would use their default radius but it would just make no noise - because the SWF party is required to call out the killer's location.
This would be a change that makes SWF have a consequence which is one of the things DBD is lacking right now. You turn it on and you are better than playing solo. That's not fair to most people.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3213286#Comment_3213286
Demaning that the killer goes for a frsh survivor would be the same as demanding that survivors should start on a fresh gen once the killer kicked one.
It dosnt sound right does it?
Kaitsja is only going to see it the way that makes the game fun for survivor.
@Kaitsja said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3214406#Comment_3214406
That's not the same thing. Survivors have two health states and three hook states. Generators are either repaired or they're not repaired.
What if I said to you that my view as killer is that survivors have a binary existence? They are either dead or they are not tunneled out yet.
As killer for the most part I have to defend a stationary device that doesn't move or loop. It requires a nearly braindead task to hold a button to finish it. My objective as killer is to chase people who are smart and move around the map in ways that try and waste as much time as possible so the other three survivors can finish all the generators.
I spend 40-120 seconds chasing/downing/hooking someone and then I have 10 seconds to kick the generator. This does nothing if I am not chasing you directly. after the kick. See the problem?
It's very clear you want the game your way without even considering for a moment what it is like to play killer. You even go so far as to say Gen rushing is not tunneling and that Gen rushing is fine, but tunneling survivors out is not. It's a real shame I can't force you to play DBD with my MMR and force you to only be able to play killer for a week. I think you would play something else.
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At the risk of adding a turn on page 4, let me ask a simple question:
What is the killer supposed to do to "catch up" on their objective if they lose two or three gens in the first chase? The streamers with 7-9k hours tell me the answer is : force +1 hook state out of the person they just downed.
People who don't play skillful survivors will have inappropriate answers because they don't play vs pixel perfect loopers who can loop better than subtle 2-4% movement buffed baddies.
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@zarr said:
From a DbD perspective, Oni is clearly more dangerous. Nemesis' tentacle strike doesn't even inflict damage on first hit, it only infects the victim - with a mild cough... And from there it only deals 1 health state damage. Oni's demon strike not only inflicts 2 health states damage instantly, but it can in theory even inflict 8 (or more), if people line up or run into it while it lasts. His kanabo has much more destructive force than Nem's tentacle in DbD. Oni is also much faster.
Oni does need to draw blood to get access to his powers, but not only does that seem easy enough to do given that he can slash Nem's arms during punches or tentacle during strikes, but there's also those zombies with him, which are easy targets for Oni to slice and fuel up on blood from.
Pitting him against RE Nemesis would be more interesting, but ultimately Nemesis is merely biological, whereas Oni is supernatural - rather than being brought back from the dead with science/a virus, he's an undead spirit, a sort of demonic force propelling a body that should already be dead. There's a cosmetic showing him with serious wounds all over his body, and yet he's still as fast and strong as usual. So we have to assume he would be able to keep fighting fiercely even in drastic stages of being injured, and who knows, maybe this demonic force could even achieve what Rin, his relative, did: be able to keep moving limbs even after they're severed.
-"From a DbD perspective, Oni is clearly more dangerous"
Nemesis has wolverine like levels of regeneration. He's like 9 feet tall in DBD and has forearms bigger than most mens legs. The main armament of Nemesis is also a rocket launcher - which he is not allowed to use in DBD but does get to use in RER. Sword vs rocket launcher is not really much of a contest in my mind.
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@RaSavage42 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3213735#Comment_3213735
Cause 8 Stacks of STBFL is more then it was before... all I'm saying is to adjust the numbers
Of course I can't play so I don't have personal experience using it and going against it... so I'm reading what other have issues with it
Do you not realize they buffed killers with 2 "free" stacks of STBFL because survivors were getting too much distance after being attacked?
@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
Overcharge - .... why? As in, why Overcharge and not Call of Brine which does 200% regression immediately and is more popular because of it.
Eruption - i agree it needs changes but that's due to the Incapacitated effect. I'm not understanding this whole Overcharge combo devastation.
Save the best for last - I went through the effort to mathematically calculate its max valie compared to its old. Currently, it's 1.62 sec cooldown vs 1.8. This is the same as if the old cooldown had about 1 extra stack. That's it. The difference, while sounding scary, is honestly negligible.
"why Overcharge and not Call of Brine which does 200% regression immediately"
Choy made a video with regression perks:
Normal regression takes 5 minutes and 47 seconds to take a 99% Gen back down to 0%
Call Of Brine takes 4 minutes and 46 seconds
Overcharge takes 3 minutes and 3 seconds
Before 90 seconds have passed Overcharge has more regression than CoB.
After 2:30 Overcharge gets the generator down to about 12% while the CoB generator is still close to 50% progress.
At 2:32 the Overcharge+CoB generator is completely stopped. In other words : CoB+Overcharge has only 11% more regression than just Overcharge.
You can find that video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGtF_5jH8ww
My observation is that people who play like comp teams and can loop with pixel perfect precision often miss overcharge when I push them off a generator. CoB is better if you can't tunnel or slug survivors and are only going to get 20-30 seconds before someone touches it. But if you can tunnel and slug then Overcharge is the better perk - depending on your ability to pressure.
CoB also requires you to be continually kicking any generator you want to contest. Be aware every time you kick a generator you give 2 seconds to the enemy team for each person not down/dead. If there are 4 people you gave them 8 seconds.
This was part of a nemesis discussion thread which if you are interested takes place here:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3212870#Comment_3212870
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@Shi283 said:
When I played Killer, I used to play without Camp Tunnel.
Often three or more survivors escaped the ritual.
This is because when I am a survivor, it is uncomfortable to be camped in a tunnel.
One day when I camped tunnel and played killer, I was able to kill all the survivors.
After that, I was able to kill 3 or more survivors in most cases by playing Camp Tunnel.
What we can see from this is that if there are 4 survivors alive the survivor will always have an advantage, and if one survivor dies the killer will always have an advantage.
Many killers camp tunnels to gain a quick advantage.
So I think that killers and survivors should be able to play the game equally whether there are 4 or 3 survivors.
The adjustment I think is like this.
When one survivor dies, the remaining 3 survivors work 50% faster, and when 2 survivors die, 100% faster.
・When one survivor dies, they can see each other's auras.
When 4 survivors are alive, all generators untouched by survivors continue to decrease at 100% progress.
This makes it more important for the killer to find new survivors who are touching the generator rather than camping, and survivors can see chances of winning even if there are only three survivors.
What do you think?
What you are suggesting would work - assuming you mean buffing the killer's regression rate to be equal to a survivor's repair rate without any perks.
So if there are 4 survivors then the killer's repair rate is 25. But if there are 2 survivors then the killer's repair rate is 50.
Obviously overcharge and brine would need to be retuned.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3212278#Comment_3212278
It's not a double standard. Nerfing SWF is punishing people for playing with their friends. Solo Queue needs to be brought up to the level of SWF as they're the ones who need help.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3212660#Comment_3212660
Stop using comp teams and tournaments as the example of what an average swf is. You are not playing against Oracle or Hens every time it's a swf. The average swf is simply not that skilled.
-"It's not a double standard. Nerfing SWF is punishing people for playing with their friends."
He nailed you pretty good actually. Nerfing SWF isn't punishing you for playing with friends. It's limiting how much better you are than solo queue.
-"Solo Queue needs to be brought up to the level of SWF as they're the ones who need help."
So give solo queue 4 information perks that are picked ahead of time and activate if they end up in a SWF game. Information perks are things like : bond, empathy, kindred, rookie spirit, alert - but NOT perks like Dead Hard or Self Care.
Likewise give killers 4 perks when they queue up against SWF. The killer gets any four perks that are chosen ahead of time for each loadout and only activate in case of SWF. You forget the killer is solo queue too and the second part of buff solo queue is the plan to buff killers.
Either way you want to put it the plan is :
- Buff solo queue
- Buff killer
- By proxy : swf gets nerfed because it gets zero buffs.
Honestly the idea of buffing solo queue to be on the same page as SWF is insane. DBD was a stealth game built around uncertainty. Should you rescue? Should you hide? Should you go for the save? Chasing was in an abysmal state in 2016 when you look at pallets and vaults. But what people had not worked out was : what to do when. People look at the tiles and asked how did killers win during this time? It was because survivors did not have the game sense to know when to do which action (and few people played in SWF groups).
Imagine for a moment that all walls in the game (and things like trees/corn) looked like glass for the killer and for the survivor they were opaque. That level of buff would put the killer on pretty equal footing with SWF. That's insane if you stop and think about what kind of buffs the killer is eventually in theory going to get.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3212508#Comment_3212508
Repairing generators as fast as possible is genrushing. Repairing generators is not genrushing. There is no such thing as survivors tunneling gens.
If you think not tunneling means hooking each survivor twice before killing any, you are extremely misguided. If you hook Survivor A, then Survivor B, then Survivor A again, that's not tunneling, because Survivor B was the buffer.
Tunneling and Camping don't prevent survivors from participating in gameplay. They prevent survivors from participating in normal gameplay. At no point, with the exception of script-kiddies, are killers prevented from participating in normal gameplay.
Unless you're high mmr, which I very much doubt that you are, there is absolutely no need to tunnel and camp. Survivors are not skilled enough to complete their objective in 4 minutes at mid and low MMR. Stop putting these 7000+ hour streamers on a pedestal.
I'll say it again: Play how you want but don't expect your opposition to praise you for employing boring strategies. That goes for both survivors and killers.
-"Repairing generators as fast as possible is genrushing."
So your problem seems to be semantics. Gen rushing and tunneling survivors out of the game have the same goal to finish your objective quickly. Can you agree that it is not fun when you don't really get much time to play the game? The killer gets a short game when the survivors gen rush. Likewise survivors who get tunneled get a short game too.
-"Tunneling and Camping don't prevent survivors from participating in gameplay. They prevent survivors from participating in normal gameplay."
Gen Rushing does the same thing to the killer.
-"Stop putting these 7000+ hour streamers on a pedestal."
Have a good look at the people Otz plays against : he plays in EU at very late hours (Bronx does the same thing). Overall he goes against mostly solo people with the occasional sweat squad.
Compare those games to what you see when CoconutRTS plays in his region at prime time (and the same for Truetalent). These streamers face overall much more difficult opposition for most of their show compared to Otz and Bronx.
Almost all my games at the level of MMR where I play are 3-4 man SWFs with almost no matches with anyone solo. There is a correlation with this game with SWF in that better players more often are in a SWF. I regularly play against people with 5,000-10,000 hours. If you think people with those hour counts are potato - fine.
"Play how you want but don't expect your opposition to praise you for employing boring strategies"
I am guessing our conversation is at an end because you are repeating yourself. Moreover you have no ability to see that you are advocating for the killer to not play at full efficiency but think there is no problem when the survivors do that.
Tunneling killers and Gen Rushing survivors are a problem when it concerns game balance. You can't fix one and not touch the other. However I get the impression from you that you do not see gen rushing as a problem. The reality is that if I lose two generators in the first chase then I am pretty much forced to camp that unhook to force a death hook or a kill.
For years DBD has had a problem where the survivor objective overall takes two to three minutes less time than the killer objective - unless as killer you tunnel. Patrick decided that kills are better than hooks. So I tunnel. There is no reward for hooking each survivor once as part of the base kit - so I tunnel. The reward is in tunneling a survivor out of the game. This is not to be mean but to finish a discrete part of my objective.
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@hailxsatanxeveryxday said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3212752#Comment_3212752
But the fact of the matter is that coming across a 99%ed gen and keeping someone off of it until it goes all the way to zero isn't something that happens much more often than a Pentimento five-stack (maybe you come across an 80%ed gen once in a while, but that fundamentally changes the math, and good luck keeping survivors off of it). If Overcharge starts at 75% and keeps going until it reaches 200%, it will eventually become more powerful than Brine, but the truth of the matter is that most survivors try to hug gens with any amount of progress as soon as you're gone, meaning that a lot of gens will never even reach 100% regression if you take a chase and more than one person was working on it.
Sure, if you chase them off of a gen just as they're trying to hit the skill check (which is also a relatively rare occurence), they might fail it, but good survivors can hit that check while running, and you maybe get an extra 5%. On top of that, survivors (at least in my experience) only very rarely tap gens when they're within your terror radius, because most understand that doing that repeatedly now results in lots of free regression because kicking gens now damages them. When survivors do this nowadays, I can get an extra 10% off with four kicks plus whatever regressed between taps (which is guaranteed to be at more then 175% regression speed if I'm not running Overcharge alone).
And Overcharge alone sucks balls in a 3-gen situation.
I think that if you did the math, you'd realize that you got more regression out of Brine overall because of its more aggressive starting point. Overcharge might get more regression in sterile laboratory conditions, but in a match, you're better off getting repeated 2.5% kicks plus regression at 200% in between if that's how survivors want to play the game. I've taken gens almost all the way down to zero just doing that.
This is what I meant to say before : If I chase someone off a generator with Overcharge at 60% progress it will be close enough to zero after 60 seconds that they may as well start a different location. CoB works better if you don't tunnel and Overcharge works better if you do.
"you'd realize that you got more regression out of Brine overall because of its more aggressive starting point"
If you want to kick all the gens and apply pressure to all of them - maybe. But most of the time I am really only worried about three generators. If those never get done then I win.
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Nurse would still be very strong if her blink attacks were counted as a special attack and not a regular attack.
That's how OP she is compared to almost all the other killers.
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@hailxsatanxeveryxday said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3211801#Comment_3211801
Oh. Yeah, I just went ahead and bought every killer. Worth it, IMO. Every one of them is P3 now, so I don't even have to grind for perks anymore excepting the generic ones.
Brine can trigger zombies over to the gens, too. Right? And multiple times. I mean, it causes a loud noise notification just like Discordance. As far as I could tell, it was working fine.
Overcharge was a terrible perk before its rework, and it's mediocre now (at least on its own). Most survivors will hit the skill check, and if they notice that you have it, a lot of them are going to assume you're running the Brine/Overcharge combo and hug gens, anyway. Doesn't it take like 12 seconds to get to 100% progression and then another 12 before it even makes up for the slower initial progression? Since most gens will get tapped in that time, like you said, you'd probably get more out of Brine just for its initial speed.
Man, I don't know how you can defend Overcharge and then say with a straight face that Eruption is a C-tier perk. (I'd argue that Eruption is B-tier across the board and Overcharge is C-tier on its own against solos and F-tier on its own against experienced SWFs.)
>This is so false. If you aren't getting it done with Bam+infinite T3 then you need to rethink your movement.
It's not about not getting it done. It's about the fact that Myers already vaults extremely fast in T3, and an extra 55% on top of that is extremely fun. And have you see how far he can lunge with Coup? He used to be able to completely ignore old Dead Hard if you timed things correctly.
I'll admit, however, that I haven't actually run this on Myers T3 yet myself, so this is conjecture. I'm actually going to go try this now.
-"Overcharge was a terrible perk before its rework, and it's mediocre now (at least on its own). Most survivors will hit the skill check, and if they notice that you have it, a lot of them are going to assume you're running the Brine/Overcharge combo and hug gens, anyway. Doesn't it take like 12 seconds to get to 100% progression and then another 12 before it even makes up for the slower initial progression? Since most gens will get tapped in that time, like you said, you'd probably get more out of Brine just for its initial speed."
Choy made a video with regression perks:
Normal regression takes 5 minutes and 47 seconds to take a 99% Gen back down to 0%
Call Of Brine takes 4 minutes and 46 seconds
Overcharge takes 3 minutes and 3 seconds
Before 90 seconds have passed Overcharge has more regression than CoB.
After 2:30 Overcharge gets the generator down to about 12% while the CoB generator is still close to 50% progress.
At 2:32 the Overcharge+CoB generator is completely stopped. In other words : CoB+Overcharge has only 11% more regression than just Overcharge.
You can find that video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGtF_5jH8ww
My observation is that people who play like comp teams and can loop with pixel perfect precision often miss overcharge when I push them off a generator. CoB is better if you can't tunnel or slug survivors. But if you can tunnel and slug then Overcharge is the better perk - depending on your ability to pressure.
If I chase someone off a generator with Overcharge at 60% progress it will be close enough to zero that they may as well start a different location.
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@HugTheHag said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3212044#Comment_3212044
"You assume..."
I'm not assuming your mmr or your hours in any way. I'm talking about those streamers, not you personally.
"Limiting SWF groups so that they physically cannot become bully squads in no way affects solo players."
Might be a silly opinion, but I think you should not balance a game around the potential of a minority of people to be bully squads. It's like telling "From now on when playing Bubba you can't bring perks and addons because most Bubbas camp anyway". It's just silly.
For the Peanits stuff, I'm not going to accuse the devs of lying, so any doubts on the validity of their words is not an argument I really want to participate in.
"There is no need to allow people playing with voice coms to have such an insane potential advantage over solo players."
In most cases the average SWF is not that good. They're not better at chases, they don't have a better game sense, they don't have a better map knowledge than their solo counterparts. Sure, they have means of communication (SOMETIMES, because people SWF without comms often when they don't speak a common language well enough), but to be efficient that requires experience : landmarks to orientate themselves, constant updates on everyone, an overall strategy, the ability to actually coordinate rather than just relaying useless info or not being able to apply their plan because someone F's up. All that is learnt through experience.
So when I hear that SWF should be nerfed because even at low mmr they have the potential to be overpowered, I hear "SWF is overpowered at low mmr, because if they were high mmr they'd be so much better than low mmr solo/killer".
It's potential precisely because it's not actual.
Anyway. I don't think I'll change your opinion and I don't think you'll change mine.
Let's just agree to disagree and go our own way ?
"I'm not going to accuse the devs of lying"
I never accused any dev or moderator of lying. Not being able to read data correctly is very easy in the case of statistics. This happens all the time when you gather the wrong statistics. I talked to the dev stat person in ~2017 or 2018 and realized they were gathering the wrong statistics a long time ago. I asked fewer than four questions and almost all the replies were : we don't track that stat. I asked one complicated question if they ever considered cross referencing one specific stat with another and the person was literally horrified saying that would be a month of work. I' was required to do more than I asked for in a less than four hour exam in college. Needless to say I did not get a very good impression of how the staff were handling statistics. Things might have changed since that time but I doubt they have a "math person" covering things.
Not knowing the correct answer and giving one you think is true means you are misinformed - not necessarily that you are a liar.
-"you should not balance a game around the potential of a minority of people to be bully squads"
This cuts both ways. Why did we lose the LF masks? Because a small minority were choosing to engage in abusive behavior. Game design should prevent all abusive behavior.
From a marketing perspective making people not be able to duplicate characters in a SWF has the potential for people to buy more characters. From a fair play perspective it's a rule they use in tournaments so that you can't hide how many times which Claudette has been on the hook.
Not being able to bring 4 toolboxes is a good idea from a fair play sense. Why? Many killers will just immediately dodge that lobby anyway. Most tournaments do not allow items to be repeated as it makes each item more interesting and each item gives that player a specific role advantage.
Not being able to repeat perks (with BT being an exception for one duplication) again makes each character have a clearly defined role. There is no way you can honestly tell me that if you played DBD about one- two years ago there was no difference between a SWF where the perk loadouts of four survivors on voice coms were : BT, DS, DH, Unbreakable and one where the SWF just brought "whatever". The difference is night and day and everyone knows why. The same perk build outside of a SWF sucks. Do you know why? Because you have zero information to utilize your perks to their best extent.
-"In most cases the average SWF is not that good. They're not better at chases, they don't have a better game sense,"
This is not true at all. If you are in a SWF then you can have at your disposal the knowledge of the most experienced player in that SWF. I can recognize almost all the dangerous killer addons and warn my team about them and how to outplay them.
When you are in a SWF you can say : the killer went to the two people on a generator or the person alone. That's an insane advantage. This gives those parties 10-15 seconds to hide before the killer gets there.
When you are in a SWF you can say : the devour hope totem is located exactly here (while you are being chased).
When you are in a SWF you can say: the killer has bamboozle.
When you are in a SWF you can say: I used shack pallet.
When you are in a SWF you can say: the killer chased me off generator at X,Y,Z it is 90% completed - go finish it now.
-"when I hear that SWF should be nerfed because even at low mmr"
The changes I am suggesting to SWF will have almost zero effect at low MMR so we can just delete this thought entirely. The changes are meant to address survivors who have a MMR over 1600 which is a larger number of players than people think.
The frequency and number of people in a SWF goes down as mmr goes down. As a function of volume the people who are disruptive with SWF are the players around 1600 MMR. What makes my suggestions to change SWF so good are that they will impact high MMR players negatively while having almost no effect on middle/low tier survivors.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3212072#Comment_3212072
It’s called The SWF double standard…..
Solo q needs to be buffed to be closer to SWF, because it’s a big difference.
SWF should not be nerfed to be closer to Solo q, because it’s not a big difference.
Double standards are the bread and butter of people who do not want game balance. Also - Bravo! You really got them good.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3212032#Comment_3212032
Wow. I am for such an eruption, but in that case reinsurence should work on 24m distance and add 90s on a hook. Makes about same kind of a buff
Did you not notice that my suggestion to eruption nerfs the perk so you can do "other things" but just can't touch the gens that were trapped with eruption? It would change the perk to work equally on SWF and solo players as well as remove the "frustration factor" from the perk.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3212024#Comment_3212024
There is no such thing as tunneling gens.
Generators and Survivors are not equivalent in any way, shape or form. Survivors simply doing their objective is not genrushing, or to use your words "tunneling generators".
Killers don't deserve to be spoon-fed kills for playing badly, just as survivors don't deserve to be spoon-fed escapes for playing badly. If you play badly, expect to lose.
I'll say it as many times as it needs to be said, play however you want but don't expect the opposition to praise you for employing boring strategies to ensure your victory.
Everyone who plays this game is, to a degree, responsible for ensuring that the game is fun for everyone involved.
-"Generators and Survivors are not equivalent in any way, shape or form. Survivors simply doing their objective is not genrushing"
I will now convince a logical person that this is in fact the case.
What is the fastest way to win as survivor? You repair five generators with 100% repair progress without any gen ever getting any regression. You do not have "wasted" 20% repair progress on any generators.
What is the fastest way to win as killer? You eliminate one survivor at a time to reduce repair efficiency by 25% with each elimination. You hook each person three times in a row to continually reduce maximum repair efficiency. You can slug to force one person to stop what they are doing to rescue the slug especially if the slug was protecting someone you want to tunnel. It is inefficient to hook each survivor twice before hooking anyone three times. This is the equivalent of getting gens almost repaired and then having them degrade to no progress.
-"play however you want but don't expect the opposition to praise you for employing boring strategies to ensure your victory."
How exciting is it for the killer when every generator gets finished in ~40 seconds because the survivors are using prove thyself and strong toolboxes. I could apply your same words to survivors who finish their objective in about 4 minutes - so fast that they can't possibly pip at red grads because there were almost no chases, and only 1-2 rescues off the hook.
-"What makes tunneling and camping unfun is the denial of being able to participate in normal gameplay."
Watch the streamers with 7-9k hours and you will see them sometimes lose all five generators with 0-2 hooks. Was that fun for them? No. It's a perfect example of survivor tunneling. There is no fun for the killer when the generators are done too quickly at no real risk.
-"At no point is a killer prevented from participating in normal gameplay"
This picture is important in the growth of the mind of a child when they can realize they see one image "first" and their parent might see another at a different angle. You have the same limitations as the child who assumes their parent sees the same image they see when you assume all things must serve the fun of the survivor.
What if I said : at no point is a survivor prevented from participating in gameplay when I tunnel them out. They got to play the game - just not the way they wanted. Quite often I am literally forced as killer to get one player to stage two if I lose two or three generators in the first chase. That is the current pace of the game - you need MORE than one hook state per generator.
Let me remind you that an expected outcome is 9-10 hook stages and 5 gens completed. That works out to an average of two hooks per generator completed. Every time I lose two generators in the first chase I immediately camp the next person to stage two so they are on death hook if they are surrounded by three close by generators. This makes completing one of those generators impossible and makes the best case scenario for rescue into a trade. It is the most powerful move I can make as killer and unfortunately it becomes my only move when people rush gens.
Can you describe what you would call a perfect game of DBD?
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@HugTheHag said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3212020#Comment_3212020
Here you go.
You're saying that the difference between facing a SWF and facing solos is obvious with big name streamers. Yes. Because they're at that high end of the spectrum the devs are talking about.
And sure, when you go against a 4-man at any level it can be surprising when you're used to solos. But it's far from being impossible to win. And it's also extremely rare, duos and trios being the majority of SWFs.
Nerfing SWF, without distinction for casual SWF or top players is a very bad idea, because precisely, at equal skill level and unless you're on the highest mmr, they're not that much better off than solos.
Solo is miserable precisely because they have less choices of perks if they want to stand a chance since they have to bring aura perks or perks that help them not depend on others. Let's not constrain everyone.
"You're saying that the difference between facing a SWF and facing solos is obvious with big name streamers. Yes. Because they're at that high end of the spectrum the devs are talking about."
You assume I'm not playing against people who loop regularly with pixel perfect precision. You assume I don't regularly play survivors whose hours range from 2000-10,000.
-"Solo is miserable precisely because they have less choices of perks if they want to stand a chance since they have to bring aura perks or perks that help them not depend on others."
Limiting SWF groups so that they physically cannot become bully squads in no way affects solo players.
"Here you go."
Peanits has also been quoted as saying every killer has their own independent MMR. That is both false and misleading as we know that if you hit the 1600 MMR cap then all your killers are set to a minimum rating of1200 MMR.
The problem with statistics as that quote block indicates is that they can easily lead the untrained eye to misleading conclusions.
When the game sorted players by rank I was able to get very bad players to red rank 1 by giving them all the information they needed to make the right decisions when playing in a SWF. On their own they were essentially green or low purple rank with no ability to hit red ranks consistently.
When I played with a regular SWF group or red rank players we were able to get three players to escape in something like 80% of our matches or higher. We didn't even use many items and at the time I was a terrible looper but an amazing stealther (not a do nothing hide in a corner stealther but lose the killer mid chase multiple times per game so I dont get hooked type of stealth).
Ignoring my own experiences I will point you into the direction of the Marth Experiments. Without looking at the data I believe they had at least one data set where 80/100 killers they went against either lost a pip or did not get a pip. It should be noted that at the time Marth was not a very good survivor either (as he was a much better killer). If I remember correctly they had at least one set of games where they had fewer than 20 deaths for 100 games.
There is no need to allow people playing with voice coms to have such an insane potential advantage over solo players.
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@Official_hilbert said:
After all these updates I think 3 perks on the killer side need heavy nerfs. Those being overcharge, eruption, and save the best for last.
Overcharge in my opinion needs a cooldown. The fact you can continuously use it every time you kick a Gen is a bit much. Especially close to finishing the game a killer can just keep guarding it and kicking it and there’s nothing survivors can do.
Eruption on the other hand needs a longer cooldown, paired with overcharge it’s a devastating combo.
Finally is save the best for last. With the nerf to survivor distance after taking a hit and buffing killer hit cooldown, this perk has become way too oppressive. It feels like 10 stacks instead of 8 and with all the nerfs is honestly a bit too much. Either change the numbers to not be so drastic or give survivors back their distance after taking a hit. Or remove the killer cooldown after hit if survivors don’t gain much distance.
Ad of late these perks have been some of the strongest in the game, so I think tweaking them a bit would be good. What are your guys thoughts?
"Those being overcharge, eruption, and save the best for last."
Overcharge is worthless if someone goes and interrupts the regression.
STBFL should porbably have been given to killers base kit since survivors get 10 seconds of BT. It encourages the marked survivor to body block and run interference. It requires a lot of skill to use this perk well.
Eruption is a solo queue stomper and does nothing vs SWF. This perk should probably be completely reworked so that when you down someone all erupted gens can't be worked on for 30 seconds and immediately begin regressing. Furthermore the regression speed is automatically set by any perks you have such as CoB/Overcharge.
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@schmebulock said:
What if there were less bloodpoints to be earned for consecutive hooking of a certain survivor? Or perhaps more bloodpoints earned for switching up a killer's focus?
You already get more points for killing 4 people than you do for killing 1 person and having everyone else on death hook. Try again. Also they removed the BP bonus from BBQ so now it's tunnel tunnel tunnel.
You would need to do something like add to killer base kit : block the generator with the most progress until the hooked survivor is removed from the hook (if at least 3 survivors are alive). Furthermore affected Generators auto regress while blocked by this mechanic as if the killer had kicked them (but do not trigger overcharge skill checks, eruption or perks like dragon's grip).
@Kaitsja said:
Killers who tunnel have various reasons for doing so, but by and large incentives will not solve the problem. It is a core problem that exists because, done correctly, tunneling is the most efficient way to win. The only way to solve tunneling is by making it the least efficient way to win.
Tunneling is a way for the killer to reduce his objective time so that it aligns more closely with the time for survivors to finish their objective. In other words : when the gen rush is strong you counter that by camping a survivor around a 3 gen and tunneling them out of the game.
Tunneling gens out of the game needs to be stopped so that killers don't feel the need to remove a survivor with the first three hooks.
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@HugTheHag said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3211201#Comment_3211201
Just a clarification, the devs have not said there is a 15% escape rate difference.
Peanits has said that the maximum difference they have noticed, at equal skill level, was 15%. It is on the highest possible mmr, where extremely good swf are better organised than solos. It concerns extremely few players.
The rest of the time, in the very very vast majority of survivors, the difference between solo and swf is within a few percents.
The difference between playing against 4 solo survivors and a 4 man swf is incredibly obvious when you watch any big name streamer. I see the same thing in my games. Show me that quote please.
There should be at most nothing higher than a 3% escape rate. Limiting swf to no character/item/perk/offering repeats would make for a better game experience for everyone.
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@BubbaIsJustVibin said:
I have a few hundred hours on Nemi and would like to hear what tips and stragies you like doing that are relatively advanced. Getting into T2 early, drag, I know all that: I want to hear what your different strategies for playing Nemi is. Thanks!
My friend sent me a clip for you of Blind whipping around a corner. If you saw the whole video this guy was an amazing looper.
blind-whip(1).gifThis was a 6 meg file that had to be converted to gif for the forums. It expanded to 47 megs as a gif.
@hailxsatanxeveryxday said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3211801#Comment_3211801
Oh. Yeah, I just went ahead and bought every killer. Worth it, IMO. Every one of them is P3 now, so I don't even have to grind for perks anymore excepting the generic ones.
Brine can trigger zombies over to the gens, too. Right? And multiple times. I mean, it causes a loud noise notification just like Discordance. As far as I could tell, it was working fine.
Overcharge was a terrible perk before its rework, and it's mediocre now (at least on its own). Most survivors will hit the skill check, and if they notice that you have it, a lot of them are going to assume you're running the Brine/Overcharge combo and hug gens, anyway. Doesn't it take like 12 seconds to get to 100% progression and then another 12 before it even makes up for the slower initial progression? Since most gens will get tapped in that time, like you said, you'd probably get more out of Brine just for its initial speed.
Man, I don't know how you can defend Overcharge and then say with a straight face that Eruption is a C-tier perk. (I'd argue that Eruption is B-tier across the board and Overcharge is C-tier on its own against solos and F-tier on its own against experienced SWFs.)
>This is so false. If you aren't getting it done with Bam+infinite T3 then you need to rethink your movement.
It's not about not getting it done. It's about the fact that Myers already vaults extremely fast in T3, and an extra 55% on top of that is extremely fun. And have you see how far he can lunge with Coup? He used to be able to completely ignore old Dead Hard if you timed things correctly.
I'll admit, however, that I haven't actually run this on Myers T3 yet myself, so this is conjecture. I'm actually going to go try this now.
-"and an extra 55% on top of that is extremely fun"
My point is the extra 55% is completely unnecessary. If we had eight perks sure why not go for it but we do not.
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@hailxsatanxeveryxday said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3209689#Comment_3209689
I would argue that Bamboozle and Superior are different perks with different use cases, and they do have some synergy. I'd agree that Bam is the stronger of the two overall, but it gets you one easy down per survivor (one per game if it's an SWF) and then survivors will make a point of not looping you around windows, instead vaulting through them once and running in the other direction. Which is where superior comes in. And the speed bonuses on the two stack.
I ran this for a few games on my Clown anti-chase build, and it was effective, but not worth wasting a perk slot for Superior, so I ended up replacing that.
Infinite T3 Myers is probably one of the best builds to run both perks on. Add in Coup de Grace and it's pure cheese.
Eruption is a much better perk than people give it credit for, but it only has niche uses. If your entire build is centered around gen-kicking (meaning, you kick a gen before you take a chase, which works best on killers with good anti-loop, or else you patrol the map and make sure every gen is kicked and survivors are scared and one or two of them have to take the time to heal), you can get regression on a bunch of gens at once.
This works especially well when you run Overcharge and Brine, since you can kick a gen before a chase, get an extra 10% off of it on the down, and if nobody else was working on it, it's going to be regressing at 300% on top of that.
It really shines in 3-gen situations when stacked with Overcharge, Brine, and PR. If you manage to get a decent 3-gen set up with that build, gg survivors better luck next time.
In Nemi's case, I used it that game because it attracted zombies due to the explosion, which means that even if they stayed off of gens when getting downed and didn't get the incapacitated effect, it was still 10% off of every kicked gen, and then they're getting chased off by zombies a minute later, which is as good as being incapacitated.
That game was a SWF. I've tried it three more times, and all were 3-4K.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3209734#Comment_3209734
Why would you run Overcharge over Brine? Overcharge is 75% regression at first, and survivors who have been playing for more than a week are likely to easily hit the skill check. Brine is instant 200%, and they're almost certainly going to hit a normal skill check (causing a loud noise notification) shortly after starting a gen.
I never run Overcharge without Brine except on certain Doctor builds.
-"Why would you run Overcharge over Brine?"
Brine won't be in the shrine for like 6 months. Also overcharge as I said can trigger zombies to come to the gen. People often tap a gen in chase and miss the check even if they can hit it normally. Also Overcharge if left alone can deal more regression then Brine.
-"Infinite T3 Myers is probably one of the best builds to run both perks on."
This is so false. If you aren't getting it done with Bam+infinite T3 then you need to rethink your movement.
-"Eruption is a much better perk than people give it credit for"
It's an S tier perk vs solo players and C tier or less vs SWF teams. This is a win more perk where you win more by using it when you don't need it.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3211214#Comment_3211214
Oh god. We have statistics that say 61% killrate. We are also informed (I don't know how truthful this one is, but I believe it), that survivors at high MMR still win more often then they loose. To balance the statistics it does not take rocket scientist to assume, that noob killer will most probably slaughter noob survivors very very hard. Otherwise where would the number 61% (+ high MMR survivors being OK) come from? If your idea of fair game is killer slaughtering the other side... Then I have nothing more to talk to you.
As for genrush - I already wrote so in message above. Camp+tunnel+genrush = no fun. All 3 of them. Even if they are optimal tactics
The 61% kill rate is very likely inflated from survivors that were organizing protests where they died on purpose.
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@PaintedDeath said:
I will trade you giving comms to soloq for giving Killer constant aura reading to all Survivors at all times.
A more realistic measure would be to either let a killer have their choice of +20/-20 meter terror radius vs a SWF.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3211112#Comment_3211112
Ok. You play without mercy. I play for fun. You will very rarely see me with commodius toolbox + brand new part. Usually I take brown or yellow medkit and saboteur (both pretty meh things) + CoH (which almost always eats more time then taking SC - but I don't take SC out of principle, because of those last nerfs). My team takes SC+Botany so it's really not useful to take boon. What I am trying to say is, that I don't genrush, because it's no fun. And I hate camp/tunnel, because it's also no fun.
But I understand, that some people just want to win. That's OK. But most OP tactics should be fun. It would be good for game health.
As for the maps - OK. You have your reasons. I am glad you prefer absolute size to effective size. For that reason your choices are more enjoyable to me - which is perfect for both of us :)
"But most OP tactics should be fun. It would be good for game health."
Gen rushing the killer is literally the same thing as the Killer tunneling someone out of the game. Patrick made it very clear the objective in DBD is to get kills - not get lots of hooks to make the Entity happy.
DBD is not a fun/fair game when it is 4 efficient survivors vs 1 killer. DBD is remotely fair when everyone is a noob. As soon as you reach mid tier ranks tunneling becomes the default strategy that works. You will lose the game as survivor when you get a gen 20% completed and that progress is reset over and over again.
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@Pyrulen said:
This is a 2 part request/suggestion.
First I want to inform the playerbase that flashlight clicking is more than a toxic mindgame, it is a serious risk for users or spectators who are sensitive to flashing lights, potentially causing seizures leading to harm or worse. Consider what kind of harm you could be causing to real life, and disable those clicking macros.
The second part of this is a call to action for BHVR to implement a 0.5 second cooldown in between flashlight clicks in order to meet safety requirements for photosensitive epilepsy:
Photosensitive epilepsy triggers:
– Any sequence of flashing* images that lasts for more than 5 seconds
– More than three flashes* in a single second, covering 25%+ of the screen
– Moving** repeated patterns*** or uniform text****, covering 25%+ of the screen
– Static repeated patterns*** or uniform text****, covering 40%+ of the screen
I would also like to point out that Dead by Daylight does not present a warning for Photosensitive Epilepsy on launch or in the EULA, which creates a risk of legal liability when posts like this are made public and met with inaction. Please add a warning, along with the functional cooldown of flashlights mentioned above, as these are very real health risks to many players/spectators.
This isn't a demand, or a threat, this is a genuine plead for assistance in helping to minimize the health risk for players and spectators of the game.
I don't recall any official statement being made regarding Flashlight rapid click macro use by the dev team, but the problem is still very present in the latest PTB from today.
Thanks,
The only good changes on the PTB right now are the flashlight changes.
Both the denial of click macros and the removal of click spinning are good for the game balance.
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@HugTheHag said:
The difference in terms of escape rates for swf and solos is negligible in the vast majority of cases, the devs have said.
The only difference that makes me think solos should be buffed on par with swf is that solos are constrained to some perks without which the game can be unpleasant, which makes the game less fun for them. They just can't get as creative with builds because they need the information, which is what handicaps them.
The rest is mostly skill. A swf will not be inherently better just because they can communicate when they're not talking about movies or how their day went. The idea that swfs are constantly calling out to each other where they are, where they're going, where killer is, what pallets were broken, etc., is in most cases a myth.
Sure, going against a complete swf (which is, and I can't stress this enough, very rare) can be a bit disorienting because you're not used to your opponents being a little bit coordinated. But it's not unfair either. In most cases you will barely feel the difference.
-"The difference in terms of escape rates for swf and solos is negligible in the vast majority of cases"
The last time the devs gave us SWF stats they realized that SWF gave a 15% escape increase advantage over solo players. That is an alarming percentage when you realize Freddy was nerfed for having a 4% "too high" kill rate.
@Lima24927 said:
a killer plays by himself, hes gotta rely on the information he gets and the perks he brings, just like a regular survivor player, there is no communication, SWFs are often in voice and can coordinate, so even if the killer is undetectable, but one survivor can actually see it and pass that information for other survivors using voice, this is not fair to the killer, as the survivor isnt using in-game means for that advantage, this basically coordinates the SWF, 2 on different gens, telling each other how much % on each gen, luring the killer to desired areas, that they otherwise would not be able to if not in voice..
this is not fair to the killers and not fair to the regular survivor players, this gives a clear advantage to SWF.
create an option for killers to avoid and don't play with SWFs if they don't want to, and those who wants to experience that can check this option.
or give the killer some other benefit for facing a pre-made.
before you start crying about " i like to play with my friends ", well killers wanna enjoy the game too and want a fair game, not a loopsided one.
SWF should be limited to : No character, item, perk or offering repeats. Small two man swfs would be virtually unaffected. Meanwhile 3-4 man SWF teams would be slightly limited but who cares because you still get to play with your friends (which is the most important part).
Add the ability to see everyone's perks when in a SWF (just like DBD mobile has). Before you ready up in a SWF any non repeated perks are shown in blue and any repeated perks are shown in red.
Lock SWF character/perk/item/offering selection when readying as a lobby.
Anyone who says this is too much and is oppressive just wants to keep SWF as "easy" mode.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3209859#Comment_3209859
Kind of a cool idea. Letting the opposite side pick the map variant. And maybe if survivors bring two conflicting map offerings then killer gets to choose between the two as well.
I suppose this is probably something that's more of an issue with high level play. I've only got about 7 days play time, I know the maps reasonably well, but at my level of play I can't say that I feel that there are any maps that appear to favour killer or survivor. I just know that i hate midwich elementary school with every fibre of my being.
When you know the game better you'll see how most of the maps favor survivors for the majority of the killer roster
.
Large maps favor survivors vs most of the killer roster. They only backfire vs Blight/Nurse who move much faster (and occasionally something random like pig b/c the boxes are far away or looking for totems vs a killer like Demo who can make them impossible to touch).
Small maps cause survivors using Shift+W to lead the killer to someone working on a generator. This allows for multiple survivor pressure without tunneling.
Disturbed ward is 11,008m² and Father Campbell's chapel is 8960m². RNG can be a cruel mistress on the chapel windows but it is incredibly easy to three gen because it is much smaller.
Shelter woods has no rules with the terrain spawns. You can get almost nothing or you can have jungle gym next to L/T next to a jungle gym next to shack. Generally speaking it is one of the most wildly unfair maps because the gen spawns are random, the terrain is random and overall the map is way too big.
@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3209956#Comment_3209956
For killer DC during loading - It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. And we don't really care. Waiting time is quite quick so no worries there. Also as noted before - we will rotate all the maps in 1 session. Probably some map more then once but it would be very unlikely to play the same map 3 times. So most of the killers don't have real reason to complain (except the unlucky ones that get the game or springwood offerings).
For map selection - sure. I would be very happy to get you to pick maps for me. Both ironworks and groaning are pretty good maps for us. There are enough resources and good loops. However I am afraid most killers would always choose shelter woods (no resources, possibly 6 pallets on whole maps, some mc millan tiles don't contain anything loopable - sometimes not a single window or a pallet) and rotten fields (huge dead zone at the middle if you don't count risky shack - with no way out to any loop from shack once "depleted", basement is always a possibility no matter where you get downed, low resources with only tiles that can screw you over under bad RNG) for us.
"I would be very happy to get you to pick maps for me. Both ironworks and groaning are pretty good maps for us."
I play without mercy vs SWF unless I see they are swaddling babes or I tunnel someone out and then I back off a bit. I like both storehouse and Iron works because both maps almost always give me a very easy to defend three gen setup. The last few games on Storehouse especially I hooked someone on a corner or end "wing" and essentially forced the survivors to give me a trade to force a rescue which still does not allow the game to advance for them. The size of Ironworks favors the killer because as soon as the upstairs door is broken the middle building becomes a huge dead zone that needs to be avoided.
My favorite map for survivors to pick is The Game. As Nemesis I have only lost on that map about once or twice. It's small, there are only about 3 useful vault locations and the pallets become irrelevant once you whip two survivors. This is one of the easiest maps to hold a three or four gen depending on RNG (if you are not an M1 killer). You might as well go afk if you are an M1 killer and the survivors pick that map however. That's not fair to anyone.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
I don't like the free perks. They are way more accessible via Bloodpoints than some perks that are behind a paywall or through grinding a lot of Iri Shards.
Exactly my thoughts. It's time to retire the free perks from the shrine.
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@hex_uwu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3209674#Comment_3209674
Otz's ability to do 50 win streaks on most killers says otherwise.
Otz got most of those win streaks before MMR was a thing. His artist win streak had over half of it finished on a day where MMR was effectively turned off. He rushed it because he didn't want to do it "normally".
He is very strong with mechanics but he plays at odd hours and that gives him easier survivors and as a side benefit more NA viewers (and some of the EU audience).
Otz has 50 win streaks - cool. There are survivor mains who had 500 win streaks (with no keys or BNP) and got bored so they stopped counting.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3209859#Comment_3209859
Well... I will be very happy with your pick of abattoir over rotten fields (even if it isn't my favourite Thomson's house - not even largest of the lot). Same way as I will be very happy, that you will not pick shelter woods as it's the largest one from the realm I think. Map size is not everything. Shelter has nothing useful on the edges, so effective map size is much smaller. Same way rotten fields has nothing but dangerous shack with basement in the middle making effective size way smaller.
As for picking the map... My group does use map offerings almost always. But you would be surprised, that most of the time we don't even care to share which map did we pick, because it doesn't matter. My group does it to a, not repeat maps b, to not go into lery's, midwitch or RPD. That's it.
Thompson House was fair back in like 2018 or so when the upstairs generator was almost a death trap (in the era when Trapper could block the only stair up). It was however a dumb map because the doors were fixed away from each other on opposite sides and had stupidly strong pallet loops in high density. When they altered the map to the modern version they made it even more survivior sided.
"Map size is not everything."
You're right but all things being equal smaller maps are more fair to the killer. On Macmillan I would always choose : Groaning Storehouse or Ironworks of Misery. Those maps are more fair to the killer with larger natural dead zones and a non busted main building loop (but IoM was once stupidly broken with a built in near infinite window). Coal Tower is smaller on the same tileset but has stupidly high resource density.
"My group does use map offerings almost always"
Don't be surprised then if you pick a map killers hate and the game doesn't load - just saying.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3209691#Comment_3209691
But why remove people's ability to choose maps? Especially when there are map centric achievements people may want to go for. Especially if maps were balanced. Tbh i can't see that any of them is a definite lose for killer or survivor anyway. Depends on where gens spawn. So even in a single map there is a degree of randomness.
-"But why remove people's ability to choose maps?"
The solution is simple if you have two children. How do you make sure a dessert is perfectly divided between the two? One cuts and the other chooses which piece they want.
Change the system so that picking a map lets the opposing side choose which version you get. Example : you pick Corn map as survivor and as Killer I will always pick Abattoir as it is the least broken corn map.
One of these is not like the other. Of these five maps a killer will almost certainly always pick Abattoir over every other option given the choice. Why? Because small maps are more fair to killers that are not Nurse/Blight.
Indoor maps would combine several of the old offerings - maybe combine: Haddonfield,Lerys, Crotus Penn, The Game.
You say i want to go to one of those maps and the killer picks the option (or vice versa).
This way you get a choice and the opposing player gets a choice. Everyone wins?
If you watch a number of content creators their game "crashes" whenever people use certain offerings. That's the current reality because most people are not picking a map based on whim. They have a strategy in mind they want to abuse by picking the map.
Being able to pick the map like this would be about as fair as being able to use an offering before going to a lobby to guarantee which killer you play against. Or imagine if a killer had an offering for : "next lobby can't have any SWF in it."
Simply put : picking the map is broken. If a killer is broken by not playing on an indoor map then maybe certain addons should force an indoor map.
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@BubbaIsJustVibin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3208754#Comment_3208754
Briliant description, appreciate it massively. If you have any specific tiles or loops where you'd recommend a certain playstyle or direction of movement. Also, if you have any interesting builds that are fun/work well with Nemi, I'd love to hear it. Thanks.
My current Gerneric build is : Discordance, Overcharge, STBFL, Bamboozle.
Overcharge is great vs solo players and good once you tunnel someone out. It does less vs SWF because they can get right back on generators when you scare someone off. Discordance can once again feedback into what you need to do at a generator when it was yellow 5 seconds ago. You hit one person chase a bit see if you can down easily and circle back to injure/infect the other
Bam is the "window insurance perk/ early pallet remover"
My What if they are SWAT team SWF build is : - still a thought process in development but has Franklin's Demise
-"If you have any specific tiles or loops where you'd recommend a certain playstyle or direction of movement."
When chasing the very good survivor around a pallet loop it is important to think about which side is the "inside" for a pallet. What I mean by this is the pallet is always against a wall of some kind. Survivors who understand perfect timing/movement can move to the inside wall if you try to whip.
This would be easier illustrated with a picture but I don't have an example picture for you. Long story short the loop will have a more favorable direction for you when the loop puts the pallet further away from a close turn. My brain wants to say all pallets are on the left wall but that is a matter of which way you are facing and really more about which structure they are attached to. What this means is that a survivor looping anti clockwise has a slight advantage in that direction if there is a pallet they can use to "shield" themselves from the whip hit after they round a corner.
Get very good at knowing your distances with the whip and try to use Tier II as the "base". Be aware level one is different then level three when you just finished a game and start a new one. This is obvious but takes some time for you to not make this mistake except sometimes to just barely miss a tier 1 whip.
When you loop around the traditional pallet gym if the spacing is right you can pull out the whip as you come around a corner before seeing the survivor. This again is a muscle memory of knowing the spacing. You can whip with almost no chance for them to evade as they cant get to anything and there is only a possible "U" shape to move into. This is a perfect example where you don't just whip wildly- you line up the shot and fire.
I'll try to get a picture or video for one of these.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3208719#Comment_3208719
Be that as it may it'd be better to ask for balanced maps rather than removing map offerings.
We can have both.
@Deathstroke said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3208719#Comment_3208719
If you lose every time on those maps it's skill issue. Badham middle school is probably my weakness where I lose most games but at least I win some. But I have good success in eyric of crow and garden of joy winning majoroty of my games in those.
"No it's a "you are playing the wrong killer issue".
I refuse to play Nurse/Blight right now as they are the killers that work. It's easy mode when not against SWF.
Should I be rude to you sand say you lose on Badham - you have no skill. No instead I will say that Badham IV is "ok" and the rest are trash.
Efficient players+SWF+Large maps = lose on certain killers.
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@hailxsatanxeveryxday said:
Bumping this thread for interest.
I play Nemi occasionally, but he isn't anywhere near one of my mains.
I usually just use STBFL with him and M1 everything excepting pallets/windows and the Obsession, although I wouldn't exactly call that an "advanced strategy".
One thing nobody has been able to figure out is how to use zombies effectively. If you figure out how they're spawned (maybe there some special math behind it, like the Lament Configutation), you might be able to better know when and how to bump them off so they can respawn near loops and pressure gens.
One of the most underrated things about zombies is their ability to get rid of pallets. Survivors would usually rather drop a pallet on their head than slowly lead them away from a gen and wait for the killer to come find them. Maybe an anti-pallet strategy? Or just an anti-chase in general; run STBFL, Bamboozle, Superior Anatomy to synergize with his natural pallet-shredding abilities.
You know how people worked out the spawn formula for the cube? Zombies have a similar idea except they have a smaller exclusion zone on spawn.
It doesn't really give you the same level of information but there is a spawn pattern.
-"run STBFL, Bamboozle, Superior Anatomy to synergize with his natural pallet-shredding abilities."
You don't need to run two perks that do almost the same thing. Bamboozle always speeds up your vault a tiny bit and blocks the window. It's a better perk 99% of the time unless you find yourself in an area with a stupid number of windows (suffocation pit). Even then with practice you can still force certain windows via positioning and guile.
Play 10 games with MM using infinite T3 addon+ Bamboozle. Then swap out Bam for SA - you'll see Bam is the better perk.
@hailxsatanxeveryxday said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3208754#Comment_3208754
I didn't read your post until after I wrote mine, and I didn't even know loud noise notifications attracted zombies until just now.
I just ran a Brine/PR/Eruption/STBFL build and decimated some Twitch streamers, and it was live.
Thanks.
Eruption is a perk that destroys solo players and does very little vs SWF.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3208711#Comment_3208711
Whatever helps you feel better about your lack of skill.
For most of this game's life cycle the game has been survivor sided at max skill level. Literally every content creator has been saying this for 6 years.
Survivor is the "weak" party when you are inefficient on gens and don't know how to loop properly. Maybe you're the one with a lack of skill. I bet you don't even have 3000 hours yet.
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@BubbaIsJustVibin said:
I have a few hundred hours on Nemi and would like to hear what tips and stragies you like doing that are relatively advanced. Getting into T2 early, drag, I know all that: I want to hear what your different strategies for playing Nemi is. Thanks!
Skill shots
The real trick to Nemesis is knowing when you will land a whip and when you won't. If you miss with a whip you give them a lot of room to make distance and that really sucks on a killer with no mobility. Learn to recognize that certain loops have just the right shape where you can sling around a corner when the timing is right and there is no chance to dodge. This is really a "frame counting" issue where you either know or you don't. If you don't know right now you will if you play him enough. You also need to learn every piece of terrain and say yes I can whip over that part of the tile or no I cannot.
In case no one has told you the survivor hitbox is more closely "weighted" around their rear end. So whip their arse not their face - a common courtesy.
There are small tricks that will take time to learn unless someone tells you. As an example say you are chasing someone around the shack. When you drag your whip you could either go outside to in or inside to out. Do you know which one is better? If you drag outside to in there is almost no chance they can dodge the hit. Note: I did have one person dodge one time in like 1000 games but I have a suspicion they were 2-3% sped up from normal movement as no one else has ever been able to dodge in the way they did. If you go inside to out it is very easy for a survivor to dodge the attack.
Never hold the whip for more than a moment unless they are in the open and there's nothing around. You can condition people to make them dodge a whip when you aren't going to whip at all. Don't be afraid to pull out the whip and not use it to condition the survivor that sometimes you fake whipping. This is something you would need to learn how to do. It's not something you can really teach - but touches on the idea of "playing dumb". Most people I 4k against get the idea: how did I lose vs this chump? They played like an idiot and won. The reality is that the whole time there was method to my pretend idiocy (madness - as per the line).
You probably are used to people doing the window fake and then they hope you miss the whip and then they vault safely. Learn to hold the whip until their animation changes - you have plenty of time. If they dont vault let go and punch them unless they are the obsession to save stacks.
Wild crazy angle flicks will work vs bad players but will regularly miss vs good players. The real skill is developing muscle memory for a consistent 30° flick or a 90° flick. This can help you hit vs very good players when they are the obsession and are very close where it can be hard to whip them. While it looks sexy when Otz gets 1/10 wild window flicks at extreme angles - they almost never land. This is a move he wants to force to work but it's really more of a huntress or trickster move. It is simply too easy for a survivor to duck and avoid them.
Perks
I always run STBFL unless I really need the perk slot to counter a SWF in some other way. This perk is really huge for him as he can keep stacks extremely easily. Depending on who is the obsession you can stay at t2 the whole game and only get two whip hits. You need to almost never miss with your whip if you want to make the most out of this perk vs very good survivors. On that note if you ever are winning a game and you just can't whip the last survivor but the other person is on the floor : spend as long as you can chasing them to learn and practice against their movements.
Discordance is extremely strong with him after the perk rework. I didn't use it before because some of the other gen regression options were so good (rip Pop/old PR). The synergy for zombie interruption is really huge. This combos well into Overcharge as well as you can get zombies that have left to come back if they fail an overcharge check.
Bamboozle is really good on him as you can force the strongest pallets on the first loop. This gives players almost no choice in how they can shift W against you. You might think : I have the whip I don't need it. Generally speaking vs 3/4 targets you should punch unless you would get nothing and then you might as well whip unless it is end game.
Corrupt is a perk I used religiously before but not anymore. With good game sense (or discordance) you can figure where people are early on and put a lot of pressure with just one or two dives on a generator.
Zombies
Pay attention to your friends when they have their arms up but be aware sometimes they really have not seen anyone in 15 seconds. Don't be afraid to whip them if you are playing a game and everyone is a "hard target" to get to T2. Generally speaking it is a bad idea to destroy a zombie near a gen you know someone was just working on but is hiding and you didn't infect or injure.
Don't cross the map to break a zombie unless you know people are hiding and not cranking out generators.
Tunneling is more effective with Nemesis because the game becomes 3v3 if you eliminate a survivor. There is no other killer with the potential for this much 4v1 damage.
@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
I am no Nemi expert, but I don't think there are that many secret strategies for him. At least at this your point, where you have so much EXP with him. He isn't the most complex killer when it comes to his power if you know what I mean. His skill cealling has Its limits.
Someone like Pinhead or Billy... Oh yea, there must be so much to learn and be perfect at.
Oh my do you have a lot to learn.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
Tbh maps really depend on your preference and knowledge. Personally as killer i love coldwind farm and eyrie of crows and do very well on them. It is a little unbalanced for swfs as they have 4 offerings to the killers one so get a lot more flexibility with their offerings as a team. But what can you do? Players do need a way to be able to pick maps because rng sucks. It might skew the odd match involving sweaty 4 person swfs. But on the whole i have no issues with mechanic. Except maybe the whole 4 of the same offering can counteract a sacrificial ward. Maybe remove that as it skews the balance very heavily towards 4 man swfs who are already organised enough as it is without being able to choose the map too.
It's not an issue of preference. It has more to do with most of the maps are very one sided for survivor. I lost every time I went to Thompson House, Gardeb of Joy, Eyrie of crows and Fractured Cow shed getting to rank 1 killer this month. Those maps are ridiculously busted when playing as killer.
I won every time I was on The game, RPD and Lerys - even though those maps also favor the survivor. It's not a knowledge/awareness problem as some of the maps are almost a guaranteed loss if you are not playing the top 2 killers and you are playing against efficient survivors (with at least two people in a SWF).
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@Marigoria said:
The game is not survivor sided.
Always has been /astronaut meme.
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@GamerEzra said:
It's one of the worst idea's from BHVR I've seen in a while. But that's my personal opinion. I just want to know if and how anyone thinks this update is going to be healthy for the game. Please let me know your thoughts.
it would be fine if they gave the same level strength upgrade to both sides.
Right now Unbreakable is so strong that it takes a perk to let you use it once per game. Being able to use it indefinitely when slugged requires you to play the entire game broken with no mither.
This would be an "ok" change if blood favor became a base game mechanic with no hex required - something that just happened on hit. That would be such a huge and revolutionary change to the game - and it would allow the killer to almost always pick up with no harassment possible.