ClarityOfWill
ClarityOfWill
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I think the change saves you around 2 meters (at best) if the survivor activates it early? it's not quite the nerf people were hoping for.
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I genuinely would like to see someone from BHVR address why the stun was reduced. It makes absolutely 0 sense, particularly given the loss from the drop animation. A far better and healthier change would have been:
- Usable on both health states
- Exit gate / EGC disables it
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3012405#Comment_3012405
Oh for sure. They weren't anywhere close to a god nurse and my pathing reflected that. I was taking what they were giving. I also don't claim to be an amazing survivor. In fact I'm a pretty pepega survivor. But I'll be damned if I can't run nurses pretty well, typically...So if I'm capable with limited experiences actually running nurses. I'm not understanding why folks with more survivor experience as me keep saying she has no counter.
You can watch my other VODS to see the level of nurse I am. My experience comes from what GOOD survivors do to me. To make it hard on me playing nurse. It helps translate to survivor. Doing similar things when others are playing nurse.
Certainly and for average nurses that's fine. The problem here is that often the argument made against survivor strength with optimal, coordinated gameplay is based on their skill ceiling while ignoring that nurse represents the other end of that spectrum. The former can be adjusted via perk rebalancing, removal of addons, toning down of item strength and map re-adjustment. However, the issue with nurse is that even if you adjust these things her potential is still phenomenal due the nature of her power. To give an example, take Gas Heaven, a map where conceding specific gens all but guarantees a loss but for nurse she can still patrol due to blinking through the car walls. Something that is often overlooked.
Generally speaking, even in comp or with high level survivors the consensus is that you don't "run" a god nurse, you pick the best possible place to go down and hope your team is ruthlessly hammering the gens out. Most survivors and heck, even most swfs will not stand up to a nurse player that knows what their doing which doesn't make for especially interesting or balanced gameplay. With the value of hindsight, she was a bandaid solution (in typical BHVR fashion) to a problem that didn't need to exist in the first place (map balance, item balance etc.). Now that we're 6 years in, we have a killer that has a stranglehold on the following aspects of the game:
- Map design/size (including Generator placement)
- Item balancing
- Perk design
- Spawn mechanics
Again, as an example, take the last point in the above list. One of the popular ideas (and one I agree with) is that survivors should spawn together, which would benefit killers like Trapper, Hag, Pig etc. However, this would indirectly buff nurse due to the time loss on generator traversal, same as certain soloq buffs would indirectly buff very coordinated teams. Map's sizes have to account for her ability to effectively move around, including maps with verticality (I'm sure we've all seen the horror show of a double range nurse on Midwich for example). Dragons grip apparently couldn't be buffed due to issues with Nurse and the last perk that has some real nasty strength to it (starstruck) is disgustingly strong on her (particularly with agitation on small maps like the game). The point ultimately being is that if we want to look at the apex of survivor gameplay, particularly with the upcoming nerf to dead hard, then it's only fair we look at toning down nurse in a reasonable manner. The "counterplay" only works up to a certain point after which it becomes "do what you can, die in the corner and hope to god we can smash these gens out"
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3012319#Comment_3012319
The medium vault was because I knew she had 1 blink when she was coming, yes. As someone who uses nurse. I had a good feel on where she was at. It was just one clip. Because that's 1 of 2 nurses I've faced recently. That was one of a couple of good chases I had with them. I'll be uploading a full video of another game for dspaceman when I get home.
The problem with these clips and videos are. No matter what. Usually the answers are "well the killer just wasnt that good !" Instead of acknowledging things like forcing 50/50s and reading where she's binking
I get that, but the reason people often criticize these clips with "well the killer wasn't that amazing" is because 9/10 times it's usually the case when it's scrutinized. I'm not talking about that nurse making a bad play here or there, that happens to all of us. Her decision making in that game was simply not in line with what "higher" end nurse players would do. The window vault is a perfect example, from your side it was absolutely the right play if you knew she had 1 blink, but no good nurse player is going to 1 blink guess like that without LOS or unless the survivors's right next to them. If she'd managed her blinks properly you'd be at the window with 1 blink ready and the 2nd just off CD. At that point it would be a near guaranteed down. Hell, at no point did it even look like she was pre-holding the second blink or pre-holding the swing (both are more "advanced" techniques, not complex, but a lot of players don't realize you can). There was no attempt to fake a prediction blink and then flick to the corner from what I could see either. These are things which very good nurses understand and the pathing you did, with all due respect, wouldn't last you 40 seconds let alone in excess of 1 minute against that level of play.
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@Seanzu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3011567#Comment_3011567
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3012052#Comment_3012052
Seeing as you stream I went and looked at your vod, the clip you link your entire team died before EGC even started, I'm not entirely sure why you'd feel the need to lie but it's hilarious that you are.
Not a god nurse but still killed the entire team before EGC.
I'm glad to see someone pointing this out. I've played nurse for a good couple of thousand hours and went to check the stream with an open mind. There's absolutely no way that nurse was anything other than average at best (no disrespect to the killer). One of the things you learn quickly (or should do) is to avoid using the second blink for traversal. It's better to have it in case you need to re-adjust targets or you're in a situation like an injured survivor and a borderline guaranteed one blink. The times you do want it for traversal are very few and far between situations (or if you're running double recharge I guess). Continuing with the vod, there's no complex movement either from the survivor side so with proper zoning she should have been able to get LOS back pretty quickly and land a hit, especially when they doubled back in the middle. This is why "edge mapping" tends to be more effective, not just because there's more to work with on some maps but also if you go down (which you will if the nurse is decent) it wastes more of her time. I'll give benefit of the doubt and assume her second blink was on CD (see earlier point), but medium vaulting against a nurse is usually a death sentence at close range.
For some ungodly reason though the developers thought it was a good idea to bring omegablink back which makes "running" nurse even more difficult. The DH nerf will pretty much remove one of her more reliable countermeasures so there's no way she can stay currently as is. I suspect what that poster means is they like running average nurses who aren't good with zoning and don't land their blinks consistently. However, it's 6 years and given the recent changes I have little hope they'll balance her properly. From a selfish standpoint it benefits me, but I won't sit there and pretend she's fine.
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@Aurelle said:
I hate going against him only because of the Nightfall mechanic. The sounds in Nightfall make me feel like I'm going to have a panic attack and/or just irritate me. Other than that, he's really fun to face.
This is the problem I'm having against him. He looks fun to play / against, but the sounds made in nightfall (particularly the childlike wailing) triggers panic attacks for me and for that reason alone I genuinely cannot play against him. Sadly unless a certain blue checkmark gets involved again we're unlikely to see any kind of audio accessibility option added. Shame really, but there's 27 other killers available to vs so it's not all bad.
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Lethal is one of nurse's best perks, getting into a chase early gives you incredible snowball potential. If you want to avoid making her unstoppable that definitely ain't the way to do it. That being said, improving base regression via kicking would be a well needed buff and changing minimum interaction time with gens to 1-2 seconds to eliminate gen tapping would also be good changes.
They looked at base CI and it was deemed way too strong. I'd prefer leaving it as a perk since it's more useful for setup killers like Trapper / Hag and less of a requirement on mobile / hypermobile ones.
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Strictly speaking we already do with the inclusion of chatterer and Doctors CryptTV skin. But if we mean a dedicated base killer rather than a skin I'd imagine one will be coming fairly soon.
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Honestly, this games community has got nothing on the Heroes of Newerth player base. It's elitism on turbo steroids with an equally toxic approach to anyone not considered godlike at MOBA's.
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I'd actually go further with this question since it's a good one.
Can we get a break down of the percentile distribution for low, middle and high mmr (including what the numerical brackets are). This would genuinely go a long way to helping people visualize just how little of the playerbase is significantly affected with changes to the system.
Secondary to that, would the devs be willing to show us how many players are above the "soft cap" for reference? I don't think there is any harm in seeing collective numbers even if you don't want to show individual players their rating.
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@DrDeepwound said:
There would be no survivor juke DBD vids on YT if they didn't smurf to get low rank killers. 🤣
I've been wondering this for a while now and would appreciate if any long time viewers of JRM could confirm. Has he always had his profile set to private? The only reason I ask is I've been in a fair few lobbies with him as survivor (he was always queuing with someone else when I checked the stream afterwards) and both of them were set to private. The other thing is that the game doesn't provide sufficient matchmaking safeguards for new players and if you don't kill / escape, the system won't keep ranking you up no matter how many hours you have.
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With great difficulty. If they're doing 1% or 2% boosts to speed it can almost be impossible to tell. Fortunately, people tend to get greedy with these things and they'll use 5% movement speed which is much easier to notice when you're not gaining them as quickly as you should be. Unfortunately, it often comes down to experience to notice when things aren't right. Reduced recovery from falling is another good example.
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@dallasmedicbag said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2903936#Comment_2903936
Stop it. You're making a fool of yourself looking at killrates. Guess you think Pig is in need of nerfing, huh?
No point wasting time on people like that, they’re too busy playing the perpetual killer victim complex. It’s genuinely comical that people in this community like to pretend how nurse requires a maths degree to play when it’s predominantly about muscle memory and understanding how to zone properly.
@GrimReaperJr1232 Nurse is my second main after Billy so I’m open to having a chat about this. Yes, she is reliant on blinks for both traversal and attacking, but people often overlook that by walking you can still zone survivors to the point where you can easily set up a hit. The problem that a lot of new nurses have (apart from the lack of muscle memory) is that they don’t position properly so the first blink ends up being wasted and the second becomes much easier to dodge.
Her post blink lunge is very close to a normal one, but there are some key differences from memory. The first is that her post blink lunge is 3% (I think) larger than other killers to offset the blink mechanic (this may have been changed after the recode so don’t quote me on that). The second is that you can initiate the lunge mid blink so that you’ll swing on the first frame after blinking (very useful for dealing with DH if they don’t pre-empt it).
The problem is that her very power gatekeeps a lot of things in this game. Smaller maps? Great, Trapper, Pig, Myers, Ghostie, Legion etc. all thank you for it. Except now Nurse (even more so with range addons) just becomes exponentially stronger; think Midwich for reference. Want a brand-new awesome killer perk? Great, except no because nurse’s interaction with could be game breaking. Changing her swing to a special attack would at least alleviate the absurd potential strength of some perks on her without really changing what makes her strong. She’s always going to be a problem from a design perspective, but at least it would limit some of the damage. Putting aside personal bias for the moment, if Nurse was designed now, she wouldn’t be released (at least not with her current power).
She’s a lot of a fun, very rewarding once you get good with her, but also a relic from when DBD was borderline a different game. If she’s going to be changed, either at least make the attack a special one, or tone down the addons.
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@SimplyPixelated06 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2805813#Comment_2805813
It's literally not fair on the survivor being camped, they can't do anything, barely get to participate in the game, but you don't care because as a killer it doesn't affect you. How about we introduce something so that camping isn't so taxing on survivors. There isn't anything a survivor can do to make the killer unable to participate in the game but yet killer's can make survivors not participate by camping from 1st hook till last at 5 gens. Your argument makes no sense. But the major issue with camping is when it is bubba, who you just can't unhook against, no other killer is like that.
People like that are delusional, I wouldn't waste your braincells arguing with him. Facecamping with bubba is way too strong currently despite the fact I'd rather not see him get nerfed. The old argument of "JusT dO gEnS" long went out the window the moment perk builds based around Deadlock, Corrupt, NOED, DMS + PR became a thing. At best you'll get a 2 man out and that assumes the following:
- You all have access to comms
- Everyone immediately knows facecamping is happening
- The first chase lasts long enough to minimise the effectiveness (if the bubba player isn't a complete idiot they'll get someone down fairly quickly)
- Everyone's pathing to get to the next gen is as efficient as possible + knowledge of where the gens are. This is difficult on some maps and you cannot actively build each game around gen discovery on the off chance the killer is a facecamping bubba
- You're able to play around deadlock (or DMS + PR) effectively
- You then manage to get to the gates and the next person can delay bubba long enough with NOED active
How often does the above realistically happen, especially in soloq? Maybe once in a blue moon. Meanwhile bubba has to put in the minimal amount of effort to secure at least a 2k, probably a 3k more often than not. Yeah...I'm sorry, but there's a colossal difference between securing a kill via proxy camping because it's tactical to do so and just sitting at the hook and securing at worst a "draw" because reasons. The only concern I share is that they'll gut him trying to fix an aspect of the game that could be better served by other mechanics.
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I've thought about this before, but rather than outright cancel his power after a down maybe reset the speed bonus he gets. That way you could still get multiple downs but it would prevent chewing through borrowed time where trading is the right play.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2798048#Comment_2798048
The thing is, there is no such things as "high MMR", game chosen que speed over balanced games, so there is pretty much no situation where killers match with balanced survivors.
No disrespect, but this is exactly why people need to stop taking everything Scott Jund says as gospel. We have no quantifiable data on the frequencies of mismatches or quite frankly anything you've just claimed. The only thing that's semi correct is that as time goes on the system increases the variation in MMR in order to find games, but it will always try to pick players that will predict a 50/50 outcome. What we do know from the QA, leaks and Peanits comments on here is:
- There is no upper limit on MMR
- There is a variation of about +/- 400
- SWF takes average MMR of the party for the purposes of calculation (which can throw things off)
- The system has a soft cap (around 1900) which is defaults to if it cannot find people at the respective MMR (we have no idea on how long before the system changes its variation after matchmaking begins)
- Backfilling is an issue (no idea on how widespread the problem is, what region, time of day etc. as that wasn't disclosed)
- The system only tracks kills, escapes, time of game and order of death
- There are plans to include a team calculation (but no details yet)
Regardless of this, people who are downplaying what Otz manages to achieve simply because they don't want to entertain the notion of having to get better themselves need to get a grip. Whatever changes this game needs, there's always a damn sight more players can change that no amount of nerfing / buffing will fix.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797999#Comment_2797999
He also ran perkless with a 30 second delay. And even then, those are matches the average killer can get as well.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2798011#Comment_2798011
So then why does Otz consistently win his matches, when according to the forums, the average killer barely struggles to average 1 to 2 hooks? Unless the forums are, for some reason, consistently matched against higher survivors than a killer player who is apparently too good to be compared to, but I think that would be indicative of a very different problem.
Because Otz, unlike a number of people on this forum (including some of those you're arguing with), actually invested time in getting better at killer and generally have a solid understanding of macro level gameplay. Sure, killers have issues with map sizes and the boon meta isn't helping, but the problems are widely overblown on here. When you analyse some of the gameplay footage it's always the same story - massive over commitment, no attempt to secure a 3/4 gen on the map, not knowing when to break chase, never attempting to bait out DH. No real understanding of when to slug, tunnel, camp etc.
Otz and any other capable killer could go on a 1000+ win streak and there would always be people making every excuse under the sun as to why it doesn't count. If the majority of survivors are bad and someone is such a god tier killer, then you'd think they'd actually be capable of getting to "high mmr" in the first instance. They also like to conveniently overlook the fact that Otz's loses often come from him running unconventional builds, not taking the strongest addons and by his own admission not playing anywhere near as scummy as he could.
If people want to balance for the absolute top survivors (fine), then they don't get to whine when the game also has to be balanced for the top killers. That's not to say the game isn't survivor sided at the absolute top levels (outside of nurse and blight), but the problem is greatly exaggerated by players who will never play at that level in the first place.
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@KolbyKolbyKolby said:
I mean he constantly throws a fit because he doesn't understand how the game works and rages because he loses due to his own mistakes, so it fits the bill of the killer mains here.
Lmfao shots fired. Take my upvote despite it being sadly accurate.
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Yeah it's definitely been made stronger around the main building and for some ungodly reason they've added even more random stuff for you to bump into (especially as Billy). I guess blight players are probably happy?
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Bubba himself is fine though granted some of his addons are a bit nuts. However, I will agree that the facecamping aspect is a huge problem and people on here severely downplay how effective a gen delay build is on him with that playstyle. The ability to down the unhooker if they attempt to trade, hit the unhooked and then chew through borrowed time in one swoop doesn't sit well with me personally. That being said, when people actually play him properly he's a very strong killer and it would be a shame to see that strength taken away.
As the poster above me said, facecamping is being targeted by the devs and the likelihood is that Bubba won't escape the nerf bat. There is no way to resolve the problem he presents without changing his kit some way.
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I don't mind spirit, but the last 5 I've gone against have all been running MDR + Blossom. It's such a braindead combination the killer practically plays itself with those addons. Otherwise she's fun to play as when I want slightly easier matches.
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@cutiekiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2767215#Comment_2767215
oh so me doing that is such a bad winner but tbagging at the exit is totally fine I see how it is
Don't project that nonsense on to me. I know you have a habit of it but at least try now and then to stop being disingenuous
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So you beat 4 players running strong builds (even though yours isn't exactly weak either)...ok?
All I'm seeing is a bad winner ######### talking 4 others.
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People on this forum overreacting to something? Such a concept is almost incomprehensible.
No but joking aside, it's an average perk and Sprint burst will always be stronger even if it gives less distance. Sprint burst can end a chase before it even begins and its ability to prevent a down in a deadzone is something a lot of players underestimate. What overcome does have going for it is that it requires no management on the users part to activate and therefore works better for newer survivors.
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It's almost like that wasn't the reason it got changed and ignores the fact it was actually buffed to be more effective against experienced survivors without destroying newer players. I guess by this logic we should buff the perk /s
Classic forum moment.
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@UMCorian said:
I genuinely think it's harder to be a good Billy than it is to be a good Nurse.
Not that I'm really good at either of these killers, but after a few games with Nurse, things start to click. Billy? I cannot land a Chainsaw to save my life. The only chance I have is if the survivor is nice enough to Shift-W for a few seconds and not make any turns.
I think Billy's real downfall is that Bubba exists. Playing Bubba vs. Billy, it's like running the meme version of a killer. Why would anyone do that to themselves unless they're just looking for Ultra Hard mode?
I've got about 3600 hours on Billy (double engravings exclusively) and about 1500 on nurse (they're the only killers I play outside of dailies or just to keep things fresh). Mechanically speaking, Billy is much harder since he doesn't have the luxury of ignoring everything in the game. Setting up good curves and predicting whether the survivor goes wide etc. is a nightmare against really aware players. Doable, but very difficult.
Nurse on the other hand is purely muscle memory and seeing how your opponent plays. Are they looking back a lot? Expect a double back. Do they try to corner tech you? Blink to the corner. Hit with DS? Who cares. Throw on double recharge, zone properly and most teams will not be able to handle the pressure you put out. Yeah, she has some god awful mechanics to deal with like blinking down or up when you don't mean to and the infamous blink bug but otherwise once you play a couple of hundred games she's not that hard to be very proficient with.
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@anarchy753 said:
I don't think camping should be punished, as most matches that reach the endgame demand some form of it.
I do, however, think Leatherface in particular needs some form of change to his power so that sitting near the hook doesn't either guarantee a kill, or downing both the hooked person and the unhooker in seconds. There's simply no counterplay to it, and it's largely done exclusively to piss off the survivors.
I don't want to see Bubba get nerfed because he's actually a fun, strong killer with some great addons. However, the way some people play him and the devs desire to reduce the effectiveness of facecamping; I really don't see how he survives unscathed. There isn't anything they can do because his power is just that good at denying the rescue or chewing through both the rescuer and borrowed time.
If he does get changed, this community will have noone to blame but itself. Though that still won't stop me being pissed about it.
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@Myla said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2711091#Comment_2711091
I mean you said 9/10 players will panic. Then you changed your stance to saying it's not meant to be a reliable tech?
Bruh The numbers mason what do they mean
To be fair I shouldn't have put a number to it, but the point still stands. It's not reliable, but I've found more often than not people react to it and dead hard. Against patient players you just have to wait it out. If they get to a pallet then that's smart play on their end.
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@Myla said:
DH is so scuffed at high MMR it's not even funny.
You wait it out he still reaches the pallet because dead hard for distance. You hit him early he still reaches the pallet because dead hard validation doesn't matter if he has the reaction of a turtle. What the ######### are you even supposed to do in those situation?
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2711038#Comment_2711038
By the way I've been using that and it doesn't work. Most survivors doesn't react to head movement in chases. It's an unreliable 'tech'. Even as a Survivor which I play a lot more these days, I never seen a killer do that. Which somebody are probably doing but I never noticed mid chase lmao.
It's not meant to be a reliable tech, but I wouldn't have suggested it if it didn't work at all. It's a method you use to find out what kind of survivor you're dealing with, same as using wraith's cloaking, billy's chainsaw animation or Trapper's setting at a pallet to identify how they play.
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@psionic said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2711038#Comment_2711038
Lol.
The survivor doesn't even need to see the killer to react to the swing. He can HEAR the swing and then DH. It's consistently a hit dodged.
lmao.
Most survivors do not react to the sound, they're reacting to the animation and even good ones can have a dead hard baited out. No one is saying the perk isn't strong, but the moment a spirit comes out of phase they're probably swinging. All you had to do was literally wait or bait out the dead hard in the first two cases and it was job done. There are multiple ways you can try to force it early, one of which is looking up.
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@[Deleted User] said:
So you're complaining about the perk when 2/3 times in that video, if you would've just waited to swing, it wouldn't have been a problem? Neat!
This, it's insane the OP keeps trying the same thing especially when they know the the bill has Dead Hard.
Pro tip, flick your mouse up when baiting it out. 9/10 players will panic and think you're about to swing and use it early. It's the same trick as looking down or using Trapper's setting animation to bait out flashlight saves / fake pallet breaks.
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Probably because Otz made a video about it a while ago (while failing to give credit to the streamer he got the technique from - an Oni main named Lipy). But yes, it's been possible for a long time, although I suspect they'll probably patch it out at some point. If memory serves correctly it used to be really easy to 180 on the PTB, then it was nerfed to 45 and then buffed back to 90.
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I love these threads, it's a fantastic insight into why the developers don't listen to the community. So many bad takes on "balancing" the game xD
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@Johnny_XMan said:
So this is an initiative to try to get the devs’ attention to buff killers and nerf survivors? That’s the goal?
Basically, it's phrased with a thin veneer of "just play killer for fun" but that's just a convenient cover for "we want survivors nerfed". Killers who play for fun don't need a movement to do so since they're already playing with that mentality. From what it looks like, the basic premise is to try and artificially inflate the escape rate at higher MMR and hope the developers take action.
The problem with this approach is twofold. One, it ignores the fact that rightly or wrongly the kill rates prior to SBMM were either close to or well in excess of 50% for all the killers with red rank kill rates being even higher (based on 2020 data). The only exception to this is nurse (outside of red ranks), whom they treat as an exception anyway. Considering their philosophy of 2 escapes / 2 kills being a balanced match, the likelihood of the kill rates decreasing by a big enough margin to warrant significant game altering changes is miniscule. I know someone is going to say "kill rates don't take into account context" and while that's true, it is the metric BHVR uses, for better or worse.
Two, all the streamers ignore the biggest problem which is the developers already KNOW the game is unbalanced at high level and they have no intention of balancing it for the top percentage. We already had this experiment conducted by the de-pip squad back in the day and jack ######### was changed because of the problems it would cause for the overwhelming majority of the player base. Hell, back in the old developer streams they spoke about how certain killers and perks are basically entry level and that not everything will be viable at the top. Sure, you'll see changes here and there but nothing earth shattering.
The top 5% comment that people like to bring up is only going to be used to make changes, so long as they don't affect the other 95% negatively. SBMM is simply designed to provide fairer games, not fix the innate structure of DBD because that's not where they want to take the balancing. Unfortunately, there are too many streamers and players out there who either won't or are incapable of accepting that.
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It's actually amusing seeing people like this claiming they're gaming the system while ironically missing the point of skill based matchmaking lol.
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Are people seriously crying about DS now in it's current state? lmfao there are some awful killers with even worse takes on balance inhabiting these forums. Least it keeps me entertained if nothing else.
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She doesn't need a nerf or even a rework. She needs a complete redesign.
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Nurse has never been balanced and if we're being brutally honesty she needs a complete redesign. A rework would be pointless because her power ultimately doesn't fit into Dead By Daylight, she plays the nurse game instead (teleporting is difficult enough to balance in most games, let alone an asymmetrical one). People also greatly overestimate how difficult she is play as well. The initial learning curve is hard, but once you have the muscle memory mapped, landing her blinks becomes much easier. When you've scrimmed comp players or gone against public nurses who are extremely proficient you realise just how oppressive her power is. Against that calibre of player, it's nigh unbeatable for a solo team and difficult even for coordinated swf's (unless you're running busted items / addons every game).
Even if you juke a few times, not every map and every generator is going to have fortunate tile spawns nearby to try and weaponize against her. In addition, a good nurse is going to know how to zone properly and your options become extremely limited other than hoping to god your team is smashing out generators (something which both asides agree is hardly fun or engaging counterplay). What isn't discussed very well is that her ability to hold a 3 gen on most maps is considerably stronger than even killers like spirit. Yes, she has fatigue, but being able to freely traverse and force defensible positions where they normally wouldn't exist is incredibly powerful.
Fundamentally, she's a product of poor design and her skill ceiling causes issues when balancing other aspects of the game like perks. You're always going to be saying "well this is cool, but what happens when the nurse utilises it" like with starstruck - a great perk on a lot of killers that becomes considerably more oppressive on her. There is a spectacular irony in people asking the developers to balance for competitive top tier 4 man teams and in the same breath saying "well nurse is fine because she's hard". No, if Dwight had a secret ability where pressing 15 keystrokes in 5 seconds stunned the killer for 20 seconds we'd all agree it would be busted. Pulling out the argument only a few people can do it doesn't alter the fact that the power itself is a problem.
If the nurse was to be concepted as a killer in todays DBD, there is not a chance in hell she would make it to live. The only reason she's unlikely to have her bugs fixed is because it's one of the few things stopping her becoming more widely used and therefore a more prominent issue. I barely play her now because there's almost no challenge if I decide to sweat my balls off (that and it started to make me worse with other killers)
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Dead hard is fine, plenty of killers have a means to deal with it. Do I care if I'm playing someone like phead, huntess, slinger etc? Not really, because either they vault and get hit in animation lock or don't vault post dead hard and still get hit. Unfortunately there's too many short sighted people in this thread who don't realise how miserable 4 sprint bursts on an optimal team can be, especially if you aren't playing a mobility killer.
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@M1MASTER said:
It's difficult times for the 5 people that still want to main Billy who have more than 50 hours in the game.
Giga chads that BHVR doesn't respect.
It's been hard times for the council of Billy mains. We're still somehow managing to survive.
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There's a few good ideas in here, but I'm sorry, most of these changes would be god awful if they were to be implemented. I have no idea how you'd enforce the one survivor only mechanic (if it's even possible) and a lot of perk nerfs here would absolutely screw over solo players (BT, unbreakable are two of the worst ideas here). Even worse is that increasing gen speeds by a third massively incentivises camping (increased repair speeds wouldn't be enough to offset the benefit) which is one of the least fun things to deal with. A 30% buff is pointless if you're the last one alive anyway since you'd be playing for hatch at that point. Increasing hex totem cleansing to 30 seconds and dull totems strengthens NOED considerably while also giving an unneeded buff to mobility killers running ruin / undying.
I'll bookmark this post for later since there's a lot to cover and I can't do it justice in a short post. However, a lot of these reworks don't make sense to me and do very little to fix the issues that killers / soloq players have.
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If the loop is unsafe I don't see why he shouldn't be able to drag you around. There plenty of loops where even with dragging, the chain breaks before you can get to the survivor. What is bullshit however, is the free zoning by spamming M2, that really needs to be addressed. It feels cheap to use and be on the receiving end of.
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Depends when it happens. If it's early on (4/5 gens) I just lose all interest in trying and will generally dick about as killer. Not the others survivors fault or mine (hell with the current patch it might not be the persons either). I'd rather we all got something out of the game than nothing.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2291963#Comment_2291963
I've actually tried to let the killer kill me many times, but lots of them just don't want the pity kill. Some appreciate it, especially if they're working on the challenge, but most of the time, they motion for me to leave.
Basically been my experience. Went against a nurse on haddonfun the other day and she got absolutely rolled. Tried to give her a sacrifice after the others left and she just carried me to the exit instead.
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There isn't beyond aesthetics or being a fan of the character. Everything aside from pallet breaking phead does better, and with greater efficiency. Hell his cages and torment allow you to bypass certain perks. I love RE but he is just a discount version with some aspects of plague thrown in for good measure.
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NOED would be the only one that really needs changing. I generally dislike the idea of a perk being able to heavily reward a killer for failing to defend generators. You can easily tell when someone has been carried to high ranks by it.
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@Edgars_Raven said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2285187#Comment_2285187
I would like to see how dowsey does against them
I think someone earlier in the thread said he tried and got 2 hooks. Considering EMA rolled him on his twins (albeit they knew beforehand), I'd expect Oracle to do the same.
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He isn't bad per se, it's just pyramid head does his gimmick better and more consistently against good survivors..
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@Aven_Fallen said:
I mean, nothing new. It is known that those tournament squads can only be beaten by a really good Spirit or Nurse. So its not something groundbreaking.
DBD will never be balanced around those teams and it should never be balanced around those teams. You cannot balance for Top 1%-Players and ignore 99% of the playerbase. If we start to balance around Top Level-Survivors and Top-Killer players, most of the people in this game will have a miserable experience.
And it is a casual game, after all. Umbra once talked about it in her Stream and she is surely one of the best Killers in this game. And she also was not really into the idea to balance around the Top Level (apparently the same was done with Deathgarden, which lead to the game dying, but I cannot confirm it myself since I did not play it).
However, quite "interesting" that tru3 did such an experiment, but he did not do the 1v1s, because the game is a 1v4. While playing against Oracle is a 1v4, it is as far away from Public Matches as 1v1s against Spirit is. And tru3 did not want to test something here, he did not want to test if Wraith can compete against those teams - tru3 is not stupid at all, he knew from the start it will not be possible.
But I think he wants to give his opinion with that, but dont want to show that Spirit is indeed problematic, which is the reason he refuses to do 1v1s.
Overall, the experiment is mildly interesting. It does not show anything new and it certainly should not be a factor to take into consideration when balancing this game.
Fully agreed, unfortunately there are too many people in this thread who simply cannot understand that balancing for teams like Oracle would kill this game. I've played against comp teams as Billy, it's stressful, but it's also a world away from the everyday casual SWF which you'll encounter in public games. You have to go looking for teams who are capable of outputting tournament level efficiency and even then, a lot of killers are still capable of 4k'ing in that environment.
That being said, I would genuinely love to see some of the gameplay from people complaining about losing 3 generators in the first chase. The amount of times I've seen that happen can be counted on one hand and more often than not is down to ridiculously bad RNG (we know spawns are problematic), toolbox/BNP rushing or them overcommitting to bad chases. The last two prominent people I saw complaining about SWF's were quite bluntly, horrendous in their decision making and with very suboptimal builds.
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I think his lunge is a bit overtuned personally. Been running BBQ, Corrupt, pop and starstruck on him with all seeing / clapper and yeah.....matches don't tend to last very long. I can genuinely see why people don't like him when he's combined with exposed perks considering how easy landing the first hit is.