ClarityOfWill
ClarityOfWill
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He is simply a worse pyramid head in every situation. Against good players you'll get stomped because he requires so much time to get any momentum going.
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He isn't the worst killer, but there is almost no situation where pyramid head doesn't do the job better, easier and more efficiently. I'm going to hold off playing him until hopefully they buff his power, otherwise it's just needless frustration I can't be arsed with.
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The mmr system has been terrible for me. I'm desperately trying to learn phead and I've had nothing but 3/4 man swf's stacking every perk and item possible. I don't mind a challenge, but not on a new killer which I have limited experience with.
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@unluckycombo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2252778#Comment_2252778
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking as well! I just didn't want to completely disregard it before I see it.
I do agree though, I don't generally trust competitive players when it comes to balance- because of how they play, like you stated, and pretty much everyone agrees that it's a boring thing to both play and play against. Imho the game would die if we moved to balancing around the competitive scene lol.
Take it from someone who plays in the comp scene, you don't want to balance this game around it. The whole thing would be a shitshow.
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@humanbeing1704 said:
why is that one dude so hostile lmao
Because he's full of it basically lol. People who've gone against top end spirit players know full well how little meaningful counterplay there is beyond "drop this pallet, hope for the best and pray your team smashes out generators"
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Not a chance, the whole combination was ridiculously strong on high mobility killers. The fact that it gave aura reading on lit totems meant that unless you were running distortion it was even harder to deal with. For soloq which already suffers a lack of coordination, against good players you'd be lucky to get 4 gens done. Bar a few exceptions, the only people who want it back are those who relied on it to carry them. Genuinely good killers never needed it to 4k, it just made the job boringly easy.
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Honestly, while he brings up some interesting discussion points from time to time, this is probably the dumbest idea out there. You'd end up with massive queue times because a lot of killers will dodge if they see a 3 man or 4 man stack. Now for people of Scott's, Otz's, comp players calibre who excel at killer (or those of us who don't care) will happily go against these squads. However, this community is far larger than those subsets and you'll get a lot of people who will simply dodge until they end up with 4 solo's or 1 duo.
Now, admittedly, maybe some killers will dodge 1 in 15 lobbies, but when you have 10 killers all thinking the same way about a particular lobby the wait time just gets worse and worse. This doesn't factor in the spiteful players who will close the game mid loading just to send the swf to the back of the queue (yes, sadly those people exist). Soloquers will end up dodging swf knowing that they'll struggle to get a match or that the killer will likely be sweating their balls off to secure the win. In a game like this where they already admitted in the recent anniversary stream that they'll be adding "incentives" (essentially bribes to play killer), it would kill the playerbase as people wont keep waiting for 20 mins+ to get a game.
Even adding a marker post game will encourage people to dodge the lobby if they see the same players knowing they're a swf. There are almost no tangible benefits to showing who is grouped, as frustrating as it can be at times. It is genuinely baffling me that Scott even remotely thinks this would be a good idea in any capacity.
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That's happened to me before lol, last time I woke up to find two Nea's flashlight clicking at me. Saw the gen counter was at 1 and just drifted off again.
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The only reason I could see them being against it is that it might promote people to dodge lobbies if they see certain players knowing that they are SWF in future lobbies. Yeah, voice comms is a bit unfair and fundamentally breaks some killers (Trapper for example), but I could see the unintended consequences being far worse than the current arrangement.
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Dead Hard - Everytime I try to move quickly I end up exhausted on the floor :(
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Ideally I'd like to see more control over turning when using the tentacle or at least making the hitbox slightly wider (maybe tied to Tier 2 and Tier 3) as generally speaking it's quite easy to juke / dodge. I'd also like to see the speed boost removed from the first infection (or at least, a significantly reduced speed boost from it). You have to hit a survivor 3 times with his M2, 2 speed boosts is brutal especially on a large map and with a power that can be hard to land outside of animation lock.
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@Mooks said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2225085#Comment_2225085
You can and should report discriminating comments and hateful profiles to Steam!
Already did, but I have no faith of anything being done. There were comments going back to 2018 from people saying they'd reported the user and the account was still active. Still, Rome wasn't built in a day and all that.
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I had a game last night against a spirit who, based on their Steam profile / comments, I'm about 90% certain was tunneling me off hook due to the charm. Thankfully they weren't particularly good and with assistance from my team was able to run her for the full 5 gens and escape. I genuinely hope it was something less nefarious but sadly you never know with this community. Funny thing is the charm is just something that looks cool to me, I'm not part of the LGTB community, just someone who was raised to treat others how I'd like to be treated.
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2212987#Comment_2212987
It is simply this. Look at all of the killers that survivors complain about (only 1 or 2 are justified IMO)
- Spirit
- Nurse
- Wraith
- Deathslinger
- Pyramid Head
- Hag
- Freddy
What is the common element of all of them? You can't loop them normally, you need to play differently against them because their power allows them to either ignore loops, shorten them, or requires you to play vastly differently at loops than you normally would.
Sorry, but this is a profoundly simple understanding of why survivors have grievances with those killers. Seeing every critique being reduced down to "survivor cant loop therefore complain" is a boring and tired trope that needs to die it's long overdue death.
- Spirit is rightfully complained about because there is no indication of when she's phasing. You have no meaningful interaction beyond a complete guess and hoping the killer doesn't have decent sound. No, the shards on her lighting up is not good enough because A) you have been really close to even see it at which point it's gg and B) a lot of her cosmetics completely obscure them. Stridor doesn't need commenting on for obvious reasons.
- Nurse is complained about (albeit far less due to how little she's played) because her power fundamentally breaks the game. Anyone who can line up their blinks or rarely misses will steamroll all but the top teams easily. Even then it's still heavily weighted in the nurses favour due to the fact that teleporting in a game like DBD can never be properly balanced.
- Deathslinger's main complaint is that he get's free zoning from just existing. I only have to start spamming M2 for the survivor to instantly lose distance as they can't be sure if I'll take the shot. Sure, he lacks map pressure in terms of mobility but below a certain range the survivor isn't going to be able to react to a quickscope. I've played FPS games for years, landing shots at medium and below range isn't that difficult. The only real counterplay (assuming you aren't at a high wall loop or LOS blocking) is to pre-drop pallets, a number of which you can pull the survivor around anyway and still get them with the lunge.
- Pyramid Head was for the lose-lose situation and the fact that his cages actively encouraged tunnelling someone out (since they bypass DS / BT - not sure if they still do). Since he was adjusted I've not seen people complain about him, yet he's still rightfully regarded as an A tier killer.
- Hag - Nothing to do with her "chase", it's the incredible camping power she has due to the rescuer and rescued having to crouch away without risking setting off the trap. Binding teleport to mouse wheel and instant swinging makes reacting to her difficult (assuming you know where the trap is to bait it in the first place). Sure, you can harass a hag early or use flashlights (assuming you have them) but most players, particularly solo's, do not have the coordination or luxury to spend all game activating her traps and managing to avoid the potential instant teleport swing. It's only due to how rare she is that people haven't brought this up more.
- Freddy - He literally has a multitude of powers, none of which he has to work for. Not withstanding the slowdown addons which were a relic of the past, he suffered no drawback for spamming his snares, doesn't have to do anything to make survivors fall asleep and has incredible map pressure when paired with tinkerer/ruin/pop. His power actively bypassed pre-buffed BT, currently still makes it hard at times to discern where he's approaching from due to the oblivious effect and doubles the time required woken up by another survivor. Yes, the clocks now are more powerful against him now but you still have to spend time traversing the map. As I said, he still has a significant toolkit which requires him to do absolutely nothing. The nerfs were fully justified considering how easy he is to use.
Apologies if any of that comes across rude, just tired of the disingenuous takes people have on here at times.
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Honestly, I think the lunge buff was completely unneeded after making windstorm base kit. Been playing him a lot recently and running MYC with Dragons Grip, BBQ, POP, Clapper and Swift hunt is absurd in terms of snowball potential. His addons either need a rework or the lunge needs a tweak. I know someone's going to say "JuSt PlAy ArOuNd WiNdOwS!" but with how many maps have generators in complete deadzones that simply isn't always an option. Being exposed when there's only unsafe pallets around against a killer who excels in getting the opening hit isn't a great experience.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Funny how this is shared at least 3 times now, but it is considered completely fine that a Killer can win 50 games in a row. In a more realistic environment than those Cowshed-videos.
"Yeah, because Otz is doing that, he is a very good Killer!"... But Ayrun and Zubat are representations of the average Survivor player../s
How dare you bring logic and facts to this place. To that I say boo, boo on you sir!
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@Babawizwiz said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2203889#Comment_2203889
yeah but a majority of survivors would just leave the loop as soon you vault the window, so it never works
Not in my experience (even at red ranks), because for a start I don't run the loop in a way which they can just immediately run to the adjacent tile. The key is to force them into a position where they can't make distance before blocking the window and that's before even factoring in a large number of maps have huge deadzones between tiles. At that point, they aren't getting away easily (unless it's something like Lery's, The Game, Hawkins to a degree or just conceding the pallet). Now if it's an L T wall then block the T wall and force them clockwise around the L, you'll get a hit either way even if it's not a chainsaw one.
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Bamboozle is honestly one of his best perks. Combine it with something like beast marks / chilli and shack becomes a deathtrap without pallet (as do quite a few other tiles). My build is BBQ, pop, bamboozle and tinkerer. Works very well.
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@TGB said:
01:32-01:38 – You see the Felix but waste time kicking the generator. On this loop, you don’t want to be chasing the same direction as the Felix. The reason for this is it’s the most efficient way a survivor can run the tile. Instead, you want to run that section of the wall (with the gen) counter clockwise so they can’t as easily get the vault. You also see that the Kate was here as well and had you not been kicking the gen could potentially have got a hook / opportunity to slug two survivors. As a result, Kate was able to safely get the vault and Felix gains distance. Don’t get me wrong, kicking the gen is a good decision here, but not as the first move.
Doesn't kicking a generator put it into "regression" which makes it lose more progress over time?? Correct me if that's wrong, cuz I don't actually know the mechanic too well.
If it is true, well, then that's the explanation to a lot of plays I make like that. If I foresee that a chase is going to be a long one, I want to kick the generator early on so that I'm getting some more regression done while wasting my time with Pallet Funhouses.
Yes it does put it into regression, but it's not always that straight forward when it comes to kicking a gen. It's one of those things you gain with experience. For example, here's a very rough outline of the thought process I'll go through when dealing with a gen that's got a good amount of progression on it:
1) Do I have ruin available and will the chase cost anything more important, if not then the commit to ending the chase quickly
2) If using POP do I have an active charge? How long is left before it runs out and can I afford to chase without losing it? If yes then go for the survivor, otherwise kick the gen. But also be mindful of things like "Will kicking this gen cost me a more important gen somewhere else?" or "how close is this gen to completion and how confident am I someone else won't work on it while I'm in chase?". Sometimes it might be better to let a generator in the distance get completed to ensure a strategically better group is protected.
Now when you don't have regression perks available this makes it much harder admittedly. That being said, at your rank survivors often lack situational awareness to leave generators early or panic when the terror radius kicks in. As a general rule, not withstanding the above considerations, downing a survivor will usually be the better move because someone has to leave a gen and go for the rescue. You don't have to hook right away either; sometimes (but not always) downing a survivor, kicking the gen and leaving them slugged can be the right move if you have a chance to down multiple people quickly in an area.
As for harvester, when you charge your chainsaw you slow down so you wont make the gap (unless you're playing someone like Billy). What you can do is go for a lunge (not a quick hit, but holding down M1) as you move to the outside. This will give you a quick speed burst and help clear the gap.
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@ClarityOfWill said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2193671#Comment_2193671
Honestly, It's something I've noticed a lot on these forums. The funny thing is when they post footage it's always the same story:
- Awful decisions as killer
- Hardcore facecamping because of the aforementioned horrible decision making which causes them to get crushed
That's not to say there isn't an issue with toxicity or that entitlement exists but I was watching DBD Sucks Ep.1 just to get some context and basically the guy is rank 14, playing bubba and just consistently making poor choices. At one point he hits the Kate on hook for what I assume was frustration, despite it being self inflicted.
Now don't get me wrong, being new or inexperienced isn't exactly a crime, we were all in that boat at one point and looking back probably thought "what the hell was I doing at those ranks" but I can already tell exactly how this series is going to play out. Not that any of this justifies being given crap post game, but whining about how survivors have it easy when you're literally handing the game to them on a silver platter and relying on NOED to carry you is pretty disingenuous.
I'll save people the effort and bookmark this post to identify most of the mistakes / where improvements can be made for the guy but there is a LOT to cover.
Alright, I've gone over the video. Took a while but hopefully it will help you and others in a similar situation.
Ok, let’s talk about the map first. Rotten fields is a difficult map for non-mobility killers, particularly post rework as corn vision and brightness can make it harder to track survivors. As a result, this also means you need to focus on more aggressively identifying and protecting your 3 gen (more on this later). However, because you’re playing bubba who is one of the strongest killers in a deadzone, you have a real opportunity to make the most of his power. Shack is difficult to play around without blocking the window, but basement gives you a chance to snowball.
So, let’s look at your build. I’m going to assume that since you’re rank 14 that there isn’t a huge selection of perks available on Bubba. That’s fine, its to be expected and you may not have access to ruin / pop for reliable generator regression. In this game you were using:
· BBQ (T3) – Great choice, BPS and aura reading.
· Spies from Shadows (T3) – Another solid information perk considering BBQ has a minimum range limit.
· NOED (T3) – A very strong perk if you’ve nothing else, but easy to become reliant on (more on this later).
· Bitter Murmur (T3) – Good perk, but you already have 2 strong information perks. Level up Hillbilly and unlock tinkerer as this is a very strong on bubba due to the undetectable status (as well as informing you when a gen is at risk of being completed)
Because Bubba is weak against windows it’s ideal to try and get bamboozle on him (assuming you have access to it). For reference it’s one of Clown’s perks, alongside pop goes the weasel which is a very solid perk considering bubba’s strength in chase and the frequency at which hooks can be accumulated. The build I personally run with bubba at red ranks is the following:
· BBQ
· Tinkerer
· Bamboozle
· Pop goes the weasel.
Because you don’t have access to some of these, you’ll need to adjust your playstyle a bit and M1 more than you normally would (especially if you can’t get a chainsaw hit in before a window vault). So, map and build aside, let’s look at decisions you made through the course of the game:
00:30-00:37 – you correctly identify where your strongest concentration of gens is. This is good as the more gens get completed, the stronger a killer becomes due the potential of a 3 gen.
00:46-00:50 – You find the feng and start revving forcing the loss of a pallet in a strong tile. This is good play.
00:51-00:56 – Here’s the first mistake. If you’d not gone wide, started revving and linking chainsaw dashes together you would have caught the Feng before the window vault. If you aren’t confident with this then M1’ing would have been enough. However, by revving late she was able to escape. What’s also worth noting here is that the Feng didn’t know how to run the tile properly since she went around the outside. What you could have done was to double vault (as a mindgame if she tried to do the same pathing) or just vault through and chase her down since she didn’t have the pallet. An early down would have given you BBQ value in identifying what gens were being worked on.
00:58-01:07 - ??? Spies has told you where someone is. Yes, they have cowtree nearby as a loop but there was an potential opportunity to down someone or at least force another strong pallet. Instead, you went to kick a generator that has next to no progress on it. This is pointless and only gave the survivor that alerted you more time to get away.
01:08-01:25 – Not inherently a bad decision, but not a good one either. If you aren’t sure where survivors are then start patrolling generators, starting with your 3 gen. Now to your credit, you eventually do this, but lose nearly 20 seconds in the process which is a quarter of a gen.
01:32-01:38 – You see the Felix but waste time kicking the generator. On this loop, you don’t want to be chasing the same direction as the Felix. The reason for this is it’s the most efficient way a survivor can run the tile. Instead, you want to run that section of the wall (with the gen) counter clockwise so they can’t as easily get the vault. You also see that the Kate was here as well and had you not been kicking the gen could potentially have got a hook / opportunity to slug two survivors. As a result, Kate was able to safely get the vault and Felix gains distance. Don’t get me wrong, kicking the gen is a good decision here, but not as the first move.
01:39 – 01:50 – You need to try and be more mindful of where scratch marks are leading. You moved away from the loop despite the marks showing where the Kate was going. You do this several times, including later losing one despite there being a blood trail. Try to keep an eye on the ground, particularly when dealing with injured survivors as the blood will often give them away. One way to play the L section of the tile to move up around the outside as you were doing and then moonwalking back to the window (predicting the vault). If you have bamboozle in these situations then you can block the window and simply brute force the chase with linked chainsaw dashes.
01:51-02:07 – Again, same problem here, you spend too much time looking in areas where the survivor obviously wasn’t going to be (she couldn’t have got to that side of the loop without you seeing her or leaving scratch marks for example).
02:08 – 02:52 – Good play and hooking her in the middle of the 3 gen was also smart. However, kicking the gen with such little progression on it cost you and this was made worse by walking around for nearly 10 seconds instead of going straight to the gen that had Kate and Felix on. You knew this gen had progression and it being part of your 3 gen would have been a priority in their mind to finish it. Being a bit more efficient with your pathing and time management would have saved that gen or at least delayed its completion without potentially losing a few hook states.
02:58 – 03:05 – You were running the tile the correct way but should have revved early. This would have forced the Kate to either lose the pallet or you catch her. Again, if you weren’t confident in chaining multiple saws together then until you hesitated there was an opportunity for an M1 (Kate was too far past the pallet to safely return for the throw). However, you still have a strong 3 gen so moving back to the hook was a smart decision.
03:10-03:26 – correct play for the most part, you force the loss of the pallet and get back in time to punish the unhook. Bearing in mind you’re down to 2 gens at this point so you must start playing a bit dirty here. However, you needed to have started revving at 03:22 and not pathed away from the Felix as this is what gave him the time to get the vault. At this point (and once you gain experience in identifying survivor behaviour) you’ll want to note things like 2 people going in for the rescue which means you’re dealing with altruistic players.
03:32-03:48 – too much time wasted here looking around and then kicking the gen which had no progress.
03:50-4:12 – Too much time wasted here and it’s not part of the remaining 3 gen which you should be prioritising patrols on, particularly if generators are going quickly. Getting a 3 gen hook in the late stages of the game is a real opportunity to force someone out or making the remaining survivors misplay trying to get the rescue.
04:20-04:40 – Here the survivors are trying to lure you away from the 3 gen. Chasing after survivors to where gens have already been completed gives you no value and allows them to work uncontested. Getting the bump at 04:42 was just unlucky otherwise you would have had a down. Committing to the chase until 04:58 was a bad idea, although you recognised this and returned to the 3 gen.
05:20-05:30 – Scratch marks were showing the survivor had gone to the loop. Knowing the pallet was gone you should have headed there as it was a good chance to potentially land another down
05:38-05:42 – why break chase here? The Felix is still in the unsafe loop and the scratch marks lead to an area with no defendable gens.
05:49 – kicking the gen here serves no purposes, it doesn’t have enough progress to warrant the time loss.
05:50-06:30 – First mistake was the way in which you ran shack. There are some solid guides on mind games you can play here which I would advise checking out. Without bamboozle bubba does struggle here. However, running around the outside was a costly mistake which allowed Kate to get Harvester (again, taking you away from your 3 gen). You waste a huge amount of time trying to get her when it’s quite strong for survivors and offers no real value for the effort. This causes you to lose the 3 gen and prevents any real chance of a comeback.
06:30-7:10 – I’m going to assume since you were talking to someone that you lost concentration and didn’t spot the Felix running to the generator.
07:11-07:55 – Good play minus the bump, but as a heads up you should have just grabbed Feng. Charging the chainsaw was risky because of the locker and a good player will know the timing to hop out and avoid the tantrum. Otherwise, good job apart from the BM on the hook (which ironically, you’re complaining about in the OP) as well as it being pointless and loses you precious time.
07-56-08:35 – You make them pay for the hyper altruism and then proceed to BM on the hook? It’s obvious at this point you’re tilted but it’s not the survivors causing this, it’s your decision making.
08:45-09:30 – if a player is running deliverance, then chances are they’re also running DS. As soon as you heard the locker, you should have left since Kate was baiting the stun (although realistically you should have gone back to the gens sooner). However, I do appreciate you weren’t left with many options at this point due to the survivors breaking your 3 gen. Just bear in mind that people will often try and force a locker DS to prevent slugging.
09:30-10:00 – You missed 2 opportunities here. One, the Kate was out of DS and injured at cowshed. Running it anticlockwise meant you could have forced the pallet and eventually caught the Kate again (because there was no longer another pallet as you downed it earlier). Two, knowing that the L wall jungle gym no longer had a pallet you could have bloodlusted and caught the Felix. This would have allowed you to hook him near the exit and camp both the survivor and the door. Instead, you break chase twice and lose both targets.
10:00-10:20 you find the Kate again and force the pallet, but because you’re running it clockwise, she can run the tile more efficiently. You also lose track of the scratch marks which gives her time to get to the hatch. The hatch escape imo wasn’t going to change the outcome as your pathing wasn’t effective enough to catch them (and you wasted time shaking the camera around at cow tree).
All in all, the survivors weren’t toxic and blaming the game for the abundant number of mistakes you made isn’t going to help you improve. I’ve not pulled apart your gameplay for the sake of being a dick but to help you understand how all these things add up and cause you to lose. I’m sure more experienced players on the forum can offer additional advice / highlight errors in gameplay but these were the most obvious ones to me. I would strongly advise taking some time to read up on killer guides from players like Otzdarva, Scott Jund, Fungoose etc. including Otz’s guide on how not to get tilted. It will genuinely help.
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@Grandpa_Crack_Pipe said:
I swear, the influx of fresh killer accounts coming here swinging with massive chips on their shoulders is a seasonal thing or something.
Honestly, It's something I've noticed a lot on these forums. The funny thing is when they post footage it's always the same story:
- Awful decisions as killer
- Hardcore facecamping because of the aforementioned horrible decision making which causes them to get crushed
That's not to say there isn't an issue with toxicity or that entitlement exists but I was watching DBD Sucks Ep.1 just to get some context and basically the guy is rank 14, playing bubba and just consistently making poor choices. At one point he hits the Feng on hook for what I assume was frustration, despite it being self inflicted.
Now don't get me wrong, being new or inexperienced isn't exactly a crime, we were all in that boat at one point and looking back probably thought "what the hell was I doing at those ranks" but I can already tell exactly how this series is going to play out. Not that any of this justifies being given crap post game, but whining about how survivors have it easy when you're literally handing the game to them on a silver platter and relying on NOED to carry you is pretty disingenuous.
I'll save people the effort and bookmark this post to identify most of the mistakes / where improvements can be made for the guy but there is a LOT to cover.
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I would imagine that licensing rights probably factor in to why the map can't just feature a straight rework. I personally don't like it either as killer or survivor, but sometimes these things aren't as black and white as people make them.
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@Phasmamain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2164361#Comment_2164361
Don’t worry 😉
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/926510102
Skip to 18:35
I'll always try to give people benefit of the doubt but that was honestly cringeworthy to watch. For a start, I'm still trying to figure out what the Ash did that was so bad enough to warrant the BM. Would have been so much better off just hooking in the first place (even if it was only to get some extra bloodpoints). Also, appreciate I'm getting on a bit age wise but I cannot see any kind of regression perk or decent addon setup for dealing with a potential 4 man (disregarding the lack of perks on their side). Sure, it's survivor sided map and the LoS blockers make it difficult for Myers but there's a lot more the killer could have done decision wise to even the odds.
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I'm colourblind and the rework is genuinely awful to deal with. Between the marks on the floor, the scratchmarks, the brightness and the gens against the colour backdrop it's borderline unplayable for me. I'd honestly start DC'ing everytime the map comes up but that's not an option due to the penalty. Sad times because clearly a lot of effort went into the map. Just no consideration was given to those with eyesight issues once again.
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Billy
Curving and a higher learning difficulty. Yeah the nerf sucked, but the core part hasn't changed.
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Billy has issues, but C tier is just spectacularly underselling him. He still has good mobility, an instadown power and the ability to rapidly slug. Generally Otz is fairly on point and I'd accept that Bubba does a better job, but a good player with Billy who has mastered flicking / mindgaming with the saw would put him solidly in B tier. Certainly better than Doctor at the very least.
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@Profezia said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2119812#Comment_2119812
Dbd mobile has very nice bot AI, I don't think it would be very hard to educate it a little bit more and add into KYW mode to substitute missing survivor and killer players.
Then I wouldn't mind allowing people to earn bloodpoints and have progression in KYW mode
After that I'd gladly delete SWF from normal queue, regardless of how long killer or survivor queues will be after that.
If people want to have fun with friends, they can have all of it playing against bots and not people majority of which are not having fun when matched with SWF. We've seen how good bots can be in games like Dota2 if enough effort is put in this, so there would be no issue in having difficult games.
Then we can talk about balancing stuff.
BHVR wouldn't be able to get the bots to a level where there is any kind of meaningful challenge so that isn't going to happen. Bots are simply mobiles way to trying to provide some cover for when a player disconnects. It's a welcome band aid, but a band aid none the less.
SWF will never get removed either so the idea of that happening is laughable. They've already said previously they want to close the gap between SWF and solo before they'll even consider looking at buffing killers across the board. This is the only viable method that doesn't involve them killing the game outright or severely hurting the playerbase.
Otherwise I could just see it now "come play our game, where playing with your friends is banned and soloq is a miserable experience. But don't worry, we have bots!" Yeah, that'll go down well with the community /s We already had this problem in the past where people were lobby dodging to try and get into the same game as their friends. The devs have got no interest in going down that road again, so the only (and most practical way forward) is to buff soloq and improve matchmaking before looking at balancing.
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@Slickstyles said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2099452#Comment_2099452
Just because the rando doesn't have the same level of information, it doesn't mean that their team isn't at an advantage. The game is fundamentally balanced around no coms. The fact that you forgot to mention this is embarrassing.
Please try to not be a complete moron. The reason I don't mention it is because the devs have 0 control over people's ability to use voice comm's. They do however have control over how many perks a killer is balanced around and adding a 5th perk which is situationally unlocked is A) impossible to balance properly for and B) Stupid.
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@Slickstyles said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2099419#Comment_2099419
How are people being punished? They can still play the game normally and use all of their perks/cosmetics/advantage of coms. The killer only gets one extra perk, not something completely ridiculous.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2099425#Comment_2099425
The killer is only getting a slight buff against certain SWF's. Solo will be largely untouched.
They are being punished by virtue of one extra perk being absolutely broken on certain killers. They are fundamentally balanced around 4 perks and giving killers like Freddy, Nurse, Spirit etc. access to another perk on top of their powers would be broken. Not to mention the random has no access to the same level of information or coordination that the SWF does. The fact this even needs explaining is embarrassing.
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So basically punish people for playing with their friends and then punish the random for being queued with those people....
I cannot see any way in which this wont have an negative impact on the games health and/or longevity. /s
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@ScottJund said:
Yeah people that keep defending MMR are really not understanding Behavior whatsoever. Everyone always says "at the highest level they'll finally see that the game is survivor sided and then fix things when they have the data!"
No they won't. That would indicate they have a desire to balance for the top 1%, which they don't, and never have. They will see that "oh yes, at the highest MMR Clown is in fact getting destroyed. Oh well, we knew that already" and they will do nothing.
They have no desire to balance for the top 1% and I don't know why people think they're suddenly going to change their entire philosophy on the game.
Side point: They already know the game is survivor sided at the highest level. They've known this for years. They just don't care because its not indicative of the general experiences that the vast majority will have.
Agreed, problem is that people here don't see the bigger picture. If SBMM comes in and kill rates remain above 60% in relation to the majority of the playerbase (closer to 70% in red ranks) it won't be those 1% elite SWF's who get nerfed. The devs had said time and time again they consider 2 kills, 2 escapes to be balanced and the kill rates will ideally reflect that. I genuinely think a lot of people are going to be rather unpleasantly surprised when balance decisions are made based off MMR.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2099060#Comment_2099060
There is a proper anti-tunnel mechanic. A safe hook rescue, and a good play from the survivor who was just rescued.
DS is not the holy grail of perks, it does not PREVENT tunnelling, it is merely one single second chance, that gives you one free health state and about 25 seconds of extra time. You still need to be able to play well to make use of that second chance. And that's the problem, a lot of players rely on perks to take the place of skill, they play poorly, and then blame the game, or the killer for tunnelling, when more often than not the "tunnel" is the result of a bad play from the survivor who just got unhooked, or the survivor who unhooked them.
None of what you've said changes the fact that soloq gets ######### on as a result of the nerf. Please spare us the "safe unhook is anti tunnel", we both know that's nonsense. If you have a mobility killer, on a smaller map, traversing back to the hook after a rescue is easy. it's only on larger maps where getting away safely is easier to do. It also takes nothing into context regarding map layout or hook position. Maps like Azarov's or the junkyard maps in general are easy to see where unhooked survivors are going.
Of course DS doesn't prevent tunnelling, because it never did to begin with. The entire same argument can be made against killers, that too many people relied on hard tunnelling someone out regardless of whether the situation called for it. Hell DS isn't even a true 5 second stun, it's more like 3 seconds of clearance due to the drop animation and that ignores a lot of the killers powers in relation to catching back up and ending the chase (assuming you don't slug to build additional pressure). This also still doesn't factor in that the person on hook has absolutely no say in the matter regarding being unhooked, nor available resources around the hook (which the remade maps have colossal deadzones)
Proxy camping is one thing, but tunnelling the person off the hook has absolutely increased. The idea as killers we don't have autonomy in choosing which targets we go after is laughable. Hook tunnelling is and will always be 100% on the killer.
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The problem has always been that the game delegates the solution for these issues to perks and with no real consideration for what happens in soloq. All the DS nerf has done is bring these issues to light and yes, hook tunnelling is becoming more common in my games. The highly coordinated SWF's are barely impacted by this since they're efficient with generators and tend to run perks which enhance that. Get a team of 4 solid loopers on comms, with toolboxes, prove thyselfs / Build to Last etc. and they'll steamroll. It's Soloq which gets screwed over simply because that level of coordination doesn't exist.
The idea that people have to buy a DLC character to get access to a perk (which then has to be levelled up and then unlocked in respective characters bloodwebs) is completely absurd. It's laughable when some of the more thick people on here propose that is the solution for being allowed to play the game beyond 2 minutes. Any decent killer worth their salt doesn't need to tunnel unless forced into it (at which point it's justified).
On top of that, solo players have 0 control over what other players bring or do while in the trials. People on here seem to overlook that the majority of the playerbase isn't here, on Reddit, in popular streamers discords or Twitter. If the perception amongst the wider playerbase that DS isn't worth taking, a few hundred people on here crowing about running it won't change the crux of the matter. There needs to be a proper anti tunnel mechanic because right now most of my killer games are just a boring stompfest and soloq is miserable. All this will do is increase the rate of SWF and that's going to be far more problematic than a 5 second stun.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2083690#Comment_2083690
But nurse and spirit ARE the only counter to high level survivors i mean watch supalf whos one of the best nurses right now scrim with oracle and agony. He needs to 4 man slug or he loses and when asked if he could do the same as say spirit "not even close". Take michael myers or ghostface for instance. No map pressure,No anti loop,their complete m1 killers and big surprise their never played in tourneys. And saying "it shouldn't be balanced around tourneys" is true but what about any killer who has a mmr like dowsey. Otz has 50 wins in a row on all his killers soon. So what happens if mmr works? Hes gonna face tourney teams and pretty much lose because thats just high mmr rn. Any further proof is here:
That entirely depends on where you draw the line at high level play. If you're talking about the 1% of all tournament teams, then yeah nurse and spirit probably are the meta. However, every game played at tournament level has a "meta" of sorts and that doesn't usually shift until something is changed by the devs. However, if you're including high level play as a general concept (even in tournament play) then no, they aren't the only viable killers. They do certainly have an easier time of it though. Ghostface and Myers aren't strong killers because they lack pressure and don't have great chase potential as you identified. But there is no real way to change that as it's something that is unfortunately true of any M1 killer without mobility.
People like Otz are more than capable of going against most tournament teams. However, as great of a killer he is, dealing with a tournament squad requires a mindset that he isn't comfortable with (you can see this whenever the topic comes up) and if MMR works he'll be averaging 2k's against these kinds of teams. That being said, playing against a tournament squad more often than not requires tunnelling and forcing hook states through camping which is completely at odds with how public lobbies are set up (given that you aren't playing with pips in mind in a tournament setting). Trying to balance for that or buffing all killers to be viable against teams which you will rarely encounter (if ever) outside of arranged matches would gut soloq and kill the game.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2083318#Comment_2083318
But its not that way at the highest level? Killers lose unless they play nurse and spirit because any other killer either has lack of map pressure or lack of anti loop so you just abuse what they lack. For instance pyramid has anti loop but not map pressure. Feel free to watch any top level matches you won't see any killer except nurse and spirit winning. Mmr actually showed this because it put dowsey whos a amazing twins player against a tournament team. And he got dumpstered.
Sorry, but this is such a dishonest take on what happened with Dowsey's game. He went against EMA who were stream sniping him just so he wouldn't be sat in queue for even longer (after getting over 200 wins with only 1 person escaping). They knew what perks he had, what killer he was bringing and what items / tactics were needed to go against him. Without that I'm fairly certain he would have got a 2k at least. This nonsense dialogue that only spirit and nurse are viable needs to die, and quickly. The highest levels of play aren't even remotely comparable to public lobbies, particularly given that tournaments have all sorts of rules in place to stop killers and survivors bringing in OP items or just slugging everyone off the bat. Balancing around tournament play would be the absolute death of this game.
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@Jasix said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2079292#Comment_2079292
I am sure you have a link where it took him 2 hours to find a match and 30 minutes for 4 survivors to get into the match...especially since this person is a streamer. The problem with your hyperbolic statement is that there is AMPLE VOD evidence to prove that IF this did happen - it was a solitary issue - which would seem isolated to that one streamer. My longest wait period was probably 10 minutes as killer; which btw I play ONE killer and have only played one killer (Doctor) for 3.5 years at red rank. But since you have claimed that this streamer - had to wait 2 hours for a game......
VOD link please.
He is telling the truth, there was a huge reddit thread about it because Dowsey took to Twitter to vent his frustrations. He ended up having to go against EMA who were stream sniping him just to get a game. What the poster has omitted is that he'd gone on a massive string of wins as twins prior to this (200 games I think with only 1 survivor escaping).
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@MeltingPenguins said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2077780#Comment_2077780
There's been plently of threads about what could be done, and each time you have people cry bloody murder about how tunneling, camping etc are valid tactics, necessary etc.
The community is sadly full of egomaniacs who perceive curbstomping people through abusing mechanics as 'skill'
This. The amount of crying I've seen from other killers since joining the forums has been eye opening. For all the complaining survivors do in game, the amount of bitching here at anything remotely positive towards survivors is shocking. I think the harsh reality is that a lot of killers here simply aren't quite as good at the game as they'd like to believe and have relied too heavily on hard tunnelling someone out the game. Even the mighty SWF which is cried about often, isn't that much of an issue outside of optimal 4 man teams (who aren't even running DS on more than 1 person anyway and for whom the nerf has almost no impact on).
Based on a lot of replies to any DS topic you could genuinely be forgiven for thinking that equipping old DS granted a survivor godlike powers, with Dwight going Super Saiyan and one punching the killer into oblivion. Personally, outside of competitive, a lot of my games have lost any real challenge or enjoyment. People either kill themselves on hook, DC or the match (outside of the aforementioned coordinated SWF) is just a stompfest. No, I didn't like the abusable side of DS either, but what we have now is equally as ######### for the opposite reasons. If we're going to play the "DS is now a true anti tunnelling perk" card, either buff it so that it genuinely holds that status or address the root issue properly. The idea of delegating such a critical aspect of the game to a paid DLC perk is a piss take.
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I have to admit, soloq has definitely been considerably worse since the patch went live. I've started running DS just to ensure there's an obsession in the game, but with wider perception being now that DS is useless a lot of killers in my games were just hook tunnelling on the chances that the survivor didn't have it. In the games where people weren't being tunnelled off hook I found people were generally being less altruistic / more useless in order to prioritise keeping DS available. DS needed a nerf, but if things stay like this in soloq then we don't really have much room to complain about the inevitable increase in SWF's...
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Honestly, camping at 5 gens aside (which I've seen far too much of recently), skill based matchmaking cannot come back soon enough. The biggest problem in soloq is just completely useless teammates who cannot loop, don't work on gens and just spend half the match hiding. Beyond infuriating.
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Billy
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Speaking as one of the 12 people left who still main him (just kidding.....there's 15 of us!), he doesn't suck and is still very viable. What the overheat bar does hurt is his ability to zone or mindgame with the saw. Against good survivors you don't have the luxury in some cases to patiently bait out their mistakes and neither can you run double engravings as effectively as before (you can still run them, but managing the heat is pretty brutal considering you also have to allow for map traversal.
That being said, there are certain things which I fully understand are off-putting for some players. The roar and the camera bobbing are the main offenders which spring to mind. He also does still have issues with ghost saws and collisions on things that don't appear on screen, but otherwise flicking and curving are still viable so long as you're willing to put in the time to learn it. Slaughterhouse gloves + doom / death + muffler still allow for reasonable heat management while playing with a speed build.
Fun is subjective so take anything people say regarding that with a pinch of salt. Also, be mindful a lot of people relied on instasaw Billy to succeed in chases and those opinions you can safely discount (everyone knew his old addons were busted).
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@Moundshroud said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2012877#Comment_2012877
What SWFs do you face? :) I fight Red Rank SWFs every day, and DS is usually in 3+ of the Survivor Builds. They don't just take it once to ensure there is an Obsession. If that is all they wanted, they would just take OoO (and often do have one person take that Perk too).
Rank 1 SWF's (EU Region) with 3/4 DS's as well. However, those aren't the types of squads I'm talking about since put bluntly I rarely lose to them. I'm talking about the optimized squads bringing every gen perk/toolbox they can and who are competent enough loopers they don't need DS (even if they choose to take it because reasons). Sure, it will help limit the damage that bully squads can do as well, but often they don't give a ######### about gens in the first place.
The point I'm making is that while DS needed changing, there's going to be unintended side effects that will buff the toxic aspects of gameplay and weaken soloq more than it already is. This change, like keys, should have come as part of a wider review into game length and unhealthy playstyles.
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I'm in two minds about the DS nerf. As a killer it's great because it can no longer be abused, but I can't help feeling that people are missing the bigger picture here. Coordinated SWF's aren't going to care since most of them only bring 1 DS to ensure there is an obsession and then just feed information / smash out generators like it's going out of fashion. What is going to suffer once again will be the soloq experience (as if that wasn't miserable enough). People will either do one of two things:
1) They'll refuse to take any action that will deactivate DS, so people won't get unhooked, gens won't get done, totems being ignored, players with active DS's refusing to heal each other. Face camping will be even stronger as a result since trading and using DS to try and break the deadlock won't be viable (I know, you can slug the trader but it still had some success if the killer got greedy).
2) People will perceive DS to be worthless now and refuse to take it. Tunneling will become even more viable and kill rates will increase as a general trend. If that happens, expect BHVR to start nerfing across the board (hell it's part of the justification they're giving for the Freddy nerfs - not that I'm against it because ######### Freddy).
Nerfing DS is all well and good, but this should have been done in line with looking at tunneling as well as game length in general.
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My problem with NOED comes in two parts (with relation to the killer). One is that it is the only perk which rewards the player for utterly failing one of their objectives (defending gens). I know someone is going to argue that sacrificing is the main objective but defending gens heavily plays into that. The closest comparable perk is Adrenaline and that requires the survivors finish their objective before gaining a temporary speed boost and health state. Yes, it also wakes them up, but that is very specific to Freddy.
The second problem is that it breeds a negative mentality in killer players. It’s all too easy to see people develop bad habits when it comes to generator patrol, general awareness or applying pressure because they have arguably the strongest crutch perk in the game to fall back on. As a new killer ranks up, the problem becomes self-perpetuating as they rely on it more and more to carry them against better survivors. Case in point, I’m currently mentoring 2 players who wanted a hand getting better with certain killers and the hardest part was trying to get them to drop NOED from their builds. Since then, they’ve gone into games a more positive outlook and with a general attitude of “I’m going to massacre them before 0 gens” instead of “well I’ll lose but at least I’ve got NOED”.
The perk isn’t just unhealthy because of the impact it has on soloq or newer players or even the disproportionate amount of power it carries (more so on maps with notoriously awful totem spots to try and find) but because it robs players of their potential skill as a killer and punishes survivors for playing well. It either needs to go or be reworked into something healthier for both sides.
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I'd be interested in watching it. Even if it didn't work out I can respect someone for wanting to try and expand on new idea's.
Besides, anything has to be better than the utter shitshow that was the "best of the best" tournament.
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@JPA said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1955381#Comment_1955381
Well sure, the main problem is always going to be gen speeds vs 12 hooking and lack of objectives for survivors. Dead Hard can still make that worse though, as it can significantly extend chase times and make this imbalance in Survivor/Killer objectives even worse (the classic 2 gens popping in the first chase is even worse when the chase is prolonged by DH, and then the chases after that...)
Of course it will make it worse, but my problem with complaining about dead hard is that it's trying to solve a symptom rather than the root cause. You could very easily make the same argument about nearly every exhaustion perk (I'd argue sprint burst or lithe is worse because it gets them to safer loops or escape to another safe loop from an unsafe one). Losing 2 gens in itself isn't a problem if you have solid map control over where the remaining gens are (hell as Trapper / hag you're expected to let a few go early). But let's say for argument's sake that the dev's did nerf DH, you can be damn sure they won't fix gen speeds at that point because then they'd have to go back and undo a load of nerfs to perks people complained about. Fix the fundamental problem, then we can see whether dead hard or any other exhaustion perk needs tweaking.
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@JPA said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1955286#Comment_1955286
Two Killer's I watch regularly on Twitch with probably 10k hours combined between them both name Dead Hard as their most powerful (or least favourite) survivor perk, so tell us again how it's only people who aren't good at Killer who find a problem with the perk.
Also I don't think any powers nullify Dead Hard, it's the opposite way around lol (DH avoids Nurse blink, Huntress hatchets, Trapper traps, etc.)
Whoop de do, if we're going to play that game there's plenty of killers (including streamers) who still demolish teams running Dead Hard + whatever other meta perks. Those players don't lose because of a single or even 4 dead hards, they lose because the fundamental problem of aggressively sitting on gens and having some moderate looping skills causes a huge amount of pressure before even factoring in anything else such as perks. That isn't a problem exclusive to Dead Hard, it's a problem with the underlying game design and nerfing the former would do very little to change that.
Nullify isn't quite the right word, but powers can reduce the impact it has. Nurse, spirit, Freddy, huntress (situational), deathslinger (situational), pyramid head etc. all have ways of dealing with a post dead hard situation. If you use to get to the window you can still be caught by specific killers mid animation lock. Trapper is obviously the biggest sufferer under dead hard and that should certainly be fixed.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1955286#Comment_1955286
I've seen many good players lose entire games because of an early game DH. Survivors second chance perks should not be happening before the first hook.
And then if we count the amount of times I've chased survivors only for DH to give them the extra few meteres they need to make it out of the exit gate.....its hands down turned the tide of more endgames than I can count
Sure, I don't dispute it's been a contributing factor for the loss, but I don't buy the insinuation that dead hard alone cost them the entire game. However, by that same token you can make that argument about every perk in the game and that doesn't even factor in all the games you, me and other killers have won where dead hard provided none to little value. Personally I've seen a while timed sprint burst cause more problems than dead hard.
You cannot simply nerf something on the basis it might have won / lost a few games when every perk in the entire game can be argued to have done that. What's next, do we nerf adrenaline because it stopped a killer securing some kills or nerfing windows of opportunity because it allowed the survivor to chain together some loops? Of course we wouldn't because that would be absurd. Dead hard is no different in principle, it's a one time use in a chase (due to exhaustion) that requires a favourable situation to get value. I've seen more people dead hard into walls than losing a chase due to it.
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This was always going to be predictable, the moment DS got nerfed (which was needed) people would start going after something else. We've had threads crying about spine chill, Dead hard and I'm pretty sure there was one about sprint burst recently. Yeah it's a pain to go up against but for christ sake some people just want every survivor perk gutted to the point of uselessness. A lot of killers have powers that can either nullify or at least offset DH's impact in a chase.
You have to be injured to use it, it's not hugely reliable and it gives an exhaustion debuff. If the survivor is in a loop its entirely situational as to whether they'll get value out of it and if they're in the open you just as easily can bait it out. Quite bluntly this just sounds like people who aren't that good at killer are upset survivors actually have some decent tools in their arsenal. With the exception of Gideon Meat Plant, most pallets are gone, there are tons of unsafe tiles now and maps have generally been made smaller. Generator speeds are a problem, as is the lack of meaningful objectives on the survivor side. There are legitimate issues to be concerned with but Dead Hard isn't one of them.
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The only tweak I'd like to see for the proposed changes is make it so that self healing (by medikit or selfcare) should only deactivate once the survivor has healed a full health state. Anything less is way to easy to abuse on some killers, doctor especially.