ClarityOfWill
ClarityOfWill
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As a killer it's great, but I have genuine concerns over how loosely worded the healing part is.
Does starting a self heal action deactivate it?
Does being healed but not to a full state deactivate it?
We need details really because if the answer to either of the above is yes that's grossly unfair to survivors.
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@Phasmamain said:
An interesting question is would nurse have been released in today’s dbd?
Of course not she’s currently a relic of the past and needs to be both fixed and nerfed
This is the fundamental point that people (deliberately) miss with the Nurse. She is a design failure because her powers cannot be balanced in a game like Dead by Daylight (certainly not in the current iteration). Is she overpowered? Absolutely. The argument that something being overpowered is fine because of the difficulty curve is nonsense. To flip this around and use an extreme example, let's say that Dwight had an ability after cleansing a totem where punching in 15 keystrokes in 5 seconds froze the killer in place for a minute. How many people could react that quickly to the code input? At best a handful and that's being generous. Would it be broken? Completely.
Something being hard to master isn't an excuse for it being unbalanced. Realistically she needs a complete redo from design level up. But, that isn't fair either to those who have cosmetics on her or are heavily invested in mastering the killer. Sadly I don't think the nurse problem will ever be fully addressed simply because it can't be. The only thing which makes it bearable is that she has such a low pick rate and most players aren't great with her.
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I really don't know why people keep trying to add deactivation conditions to perks, it is a terrible idea because it punishes technical play such as gen tapping if you have sufficient distance. Any killer worth their salt will simply play around it for 10 or so seconds before switching back and hard tunnelling.
Instead, change it to be a per hook state mechanic. Give it 30 seconds per hook state (so still keeping the 60 seconds total but in a less oppressive manner). Chasing the survivor freezes the timer (similar to the pig traps) and leave the existing mechanisms in play. If you manage to down the rescuer, hook them, get back on the original target and then either down them or force a locker the 5 seconds or so you'll have to wait for it to run out is nowhere near as punishing. Quite frankly if you're downing people that quickly you've pretty much already won anyway)
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@KnotEnthusiast said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1889537#Comment_1889537
Because, shockingly, responding to a request for disability accessibility, that's been actively ignored and pushed aside for 4 years, by talking about how annoying the request is makes you a bit of a jerk. As Steven Spohn put it, "If you're tired of being badgered about it, imagine how tired people are of not being able to play your game because it's inaccessible to them". Almo advertises his streams as being the lead developer of Dead by Daylight, which means his conduct is expected to match what is expected as a representative of the company. Being irritated that people are asking for help with their disability isn't okay, even if it's the 10,000th time.
Well said, it's pathetic the excuses people are making for unprofessional conduct. Regardless of whether he was irritated by the question, the way it was handled would have landed most of us in trouble with our employer. It's telling which people haven't worked in a high profile or customer facing role because they clearly don't understand or appreciate the need for nuance.
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I think there is a much simpler way to break up DS's power without gimping either the survivor or killer.
Make it so that DS is a per hook state mechanic on a much shorter time. Each time a survivor is unhooked DS becomes active for 30 seconds, if the killer chases the same person after the unhook the timer is frozen. This still allows DS to be active for 60 seconds in total but gives enough time to get away and heal up after each hook. If the killer wants to wait it out then they lose precious time (including chase) for other generators to be worked on. This achieves the following:
1) DS can still be used from lockers in the case of aggressive tunnelling but also encourages the killer to consider whether waiting or eating the DS is worth it.
2) It means that killers who have a hard on for the same target will be penalised harsher for it, thereby improving the anti tunnel mechanic while giving the survivor a fighting chance. 30 seconds is also more than enough time for DS to have expired if the killer goes after another target.
3) It gives a survivor a better shot at not being deleted out the game in 2 mins at 5 generators
Setting deactivation conditions isn't a good way to fix the issue. If you look at some of the proposed solutions, here is the way in which as a killer I could work around it.
Deactivates on hooking another survivor - Great, I can down the slug the unhooked survivor, down / hook the rescuer and immediately rehook the original target. Now DS is gone they can be hard tunnelled in the second hook state
Deactivates on touching a generator or any action - Unfairly punishes tapping a generator if the survivor has distance and wants to spare a 1 second action to prevent regression. Better still, I can make a mental note of where they go, then immediately switch back to them and hard tunnel after 10 or so seconds knowing DS is probably gone.
The only deactivation condition for DS should be one of time and that's why it makes more sense to split it over hook states rather than set arbitrary conditions which are open to exploitation.
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Bubba himself is fine since he lacks map wide mobility and windows are a hard counter to his power. However, some of his addons are a bit nuts though.
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More often that not you should. Despite what some people on here will claim, matches without an obsession usually end up with the killer hard tunnelling someone out the game. However, working on your looping skills will serve you (personally) far better than DS in the long term.
By the same token, a lot of us who don't tunnel unless absolutely necessary will render the perk useless. Hence why looping will always be your first and foremost skill to hone in soloq.
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@WishIcouldmain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1863131#Comment_1863131
Okay good build just gotta keep practicing.
Bamboozle could also be a strong substitute for infectious fright. Especially if he's learning Billy.
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The two things you'll want to practice is backrevving and flicking. The former is important because it allows you to better deal with survivors who try to 360 you and the the latter is needed for mind games and catching people off guard.
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@OniWantsYourMacaroni said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1861987#Comment_1861987
Nobody (at least the honest part in the community) wants DS to be useless.
People want this perk to act more like an anti tunnel perk instead of an anti momentum one.
Like,i get rarely hit by DS aswell,but if i do get hit it's by healthy people trying to save in my face but get grabbed,stun me and save anyway or healthy peoply i found working on a gen after hooking another person etc.
it just feels pretty dumb in these situations
The honest part of this community isn't what concerns me. I'd like the perk reworked as well to be more anti tunnel than it's current form. What I take issue with is the deliberate misrepresentation of the perks strengths and how it's become a scapegoat for too many killers. It builds a false narrative and risks BHVR taking an aggressive approach when it doesn't need gutting, just reworking into a per hook state mechanic.
However, I agree being hit with it when you aren't tunnelling can be frustrating and that's something which needs addressing.
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The problem with the MMR system is it's completely redundant. Consider the following:
- We're told that the current system doesn't accurate match player skill. Fair enough, a universal point I think we all agree on.
- The new system will better suited to matchmaking based on equal skill (a rating system essentially). Again, fair enough.
- Now here's the issue, the new system is taking data from the old system to act as a starting point. Understandable, since it's need to have some data to go on. .
- However, if the old system worked, then a new system wouldn't be needed. So, logically speaking, if the data being fed into the new system is "bad" as a by-product of the current matchmaking then surely the new system is going to be a complete shitshow? Surely it would make more sense to have fixed the current one instead.
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I have a lot of time for Otz but he knows and has been on the receiving end of games where there is no obsession. There is a reason he runs it more often now as survivor and even in games where he's playing killer and takes multiple hits he usually destroys the team anyway. He's a very good example how DS in it's current format is not this unbeatable wall and I honestly dread how easy his games would be if DS was rendered useless.
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@ZaKzan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1861901#Comment_1861901
You aren't getting hit with DS every 5 seconds. The 4 dses is the span of the entire game. If you are getting hit by 4 dses, even in short succession, you are not winning the game. Period. If it takes you 10-20 seconds to down the survivor, then it takes you another 20 seconds to down them after you get hit with DS, and if you do this even once or twice, you are severely handicapping yourself.
I'm clearly not talking about jumping in lockers. I am clearly talking about other ways to offensively use DS, where you can basically just bodyblock the killer or throw yourself into a hook or dive into a downed survivor to save them, take the hit, and either force a slug in which case theres a survivor in the vicinity to pick you up, or stun the killer if you are downed near a pallet or if they have a flashlight, or force a DS, which allows both you and the survivor you unhooked time to get away. It's a way to almost completely mitigate any risk with doing altruistic actions in the killer's face. This is what you're failing to understand. It's not just the people that jump into lockers. You combine DS with something like DH and survivors have enough of a grace period to do anything they want right in the killer's face and the killer can't do anything about it. You combine DS with unbreakable and you completely negate the only counter to DS, which is slugging.
Now if you're the only survivor running DS in a game, you have now given an extra perk to all the other survivors in the game and you have altered the killer's playstyle, which favors the survivors. On top of that you give your team an extra 20-60 seconds of gen time.
Again, spectacularly wrong. If you're getting hit by 4 DS's you're putting out a lot of pressure already, more so if it's in a small window. If you're losing that much pressure over potentially being hit by later DS's then tunnel a survivor out who no longer has DS and reduce the game to a 3 v 1. You're also likely to draw the other survivors out as well as they'll try body blocking or going for the save, helping reduce pressure on gens. There is no situation where being hit by 4 DS's is unwinnable and if you cannot capitalise on the situation needed for that to occur then get better at the game quite frankly.
So what? The only one of those situations where you cannot play around DS is a locker, that is a lose lose choice for the killer. The other situations where the survivor sits on a gen, totem or goes for the unhook can be played around. People using DS offensively puts them and the person they're trying to help at risk and forces generator pressure to come to a complete standstill as the other survivors have to come in for the save. The only part I agree with is the synergy with unbreakable (a 1 time use) or some exhaustion perks but I have no idea how they could reasonably balance that.
I've seen what games look like where the killer knows there isn't a DS. It usually involves some poor bastard being tunnelled straight out the game. Reducing that functionality isn't an option, particularly for new or lower ranked players.
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@ZaKzan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1861851#Comment_1861851
If you are taking 60 seconds to chase unhooked survivors down, you are losing the game.
If you are getting hit with 4 dses, you are not winning the game. If you are getting hit with 4 dses and still winning, you are not playing the game at a high level against even mildly decent survivors. The fact that you somehow can't understand how DS is used offensively also points this out.
When the balance of the game hinges upon the other player being bad, your game balance is horrible. Games should be balanced towards both sides playing competently. Even things like bloodlust should be out of the game, just because of the fact that it can be used as a crutch in lower levels of killer play.
Okay...and also irrelevant since a 60 second chase with or without DS will probably lose you the game.
If you are ending chases quickly enough to get hit by 4 DS's then you are winning the game. If you're against high level survivors there is not enough time to get hit by 4 DS's unless something has gone very wrong. In that mythical situation, you slug, simple as. Also, please don't twist my words, I've already stated locker DS is a problem which you ignored and that I'd like to see DS reworked to be better suited for anti tunnel.
The game doesn't hinge on it, it hinges on decision making, something which a lot of players (me included from time to time) get spectacularly wrong. Sure, there's some things which need reworking (effectiveness of SWF vs solo, how to make killer more engaging for players and improvements to weaker killers like wraith and trapper) of which you'll hear no argument from me. I'm simply of the hyperbole some people have around this games issues
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@ZaKzan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1861757#Comment_1861757
The video elucidates DS' ability to be used offensively. You can pick apart every tiny millisecond of video and every minor mistake the killer made, but it doesn't change that fact.
You're right, my calculations don't tell the whole story, as I've left out the time it takes to down the survivor in the first place, which can take 20-30 seconds, providing an additional 40-60 seconds of gen time.
You also fail in your attempt to explain what a stun is. A survivor moves at 4 meters per second. A standard killer moves at 4.6 meters per second, 15% more. Lets just assume that what you said is right and DS gives 3 seconds of stun. A survivor has moved 12 meters in this time. The killer then gives chase. If the survivor is 12 meters away, while moving, it will take the killer about 20 seconds to catch up in a straight line. If there are obstacles in the way and the survivor successfully negotiates them, this time is increased.
This is basic math. If 4 DS's are used, and the survivors just run in straight lines after using them, DS has given them more than 50% of the time it takes to do all 5 gens, just on its own. Just by running DS, you increase your team gen efficiency by 56%.
Pointing out how the perk can be used offensively while ignoring context is just an attempt to overstate the impact of the perk. My point is that a lot of the whining people do about DS is less to do with the perk losing them the game and more about bad decisions being made worse by it. Someone using DS offensively (not withstanding the locker issue) in a lot of cases does far more harm to the team than benefit, particularly if it ends up with 2 downs and a complete loss of gen pressure from the remaining survivors.
Throwing in the preceding chase is just nonsense, that will occur regardless of whether a survivor is running DS. If you really want to be pedantic then by the time you factor in going back to the unhook, chasing and downing DS will nearly be out anyway. If that's how your playing then you're tunnelling anyway so the perk does its job. Leave them slugged, pressure elsewhere and come back. What i've said about DS's actual time is correct and it's rather telling you don't seem to know this. You also deliberately ignore the killers power in this equation of which there are a number of them who have catchup mechanics and a number who can slow down the survivor or prevent them going to a safe tile beforehand. Pyramid head outright can ignore DS if the survivor is tormented.
Once again, this is what I like to call "perfect world scenario" vs "actual game scenario". If you're getting hit with 4 DS's, you're already putting out an incredible amount of pressure via hook states. Throwing out numbers like "56% gen efficiency" is meaningless when you're destroying a team that hard. By the same argument I can say that for each DS not used a survivor loses 25% build efficiency, it doesn't mean anything without context.
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Terrible idea, what happens when 4 soloq's all end up in the same lobby and have 5 killers each on their "dodge" list. Matchmaking would be atrocious and players would abuse the hell out of it to get matched against "weaker" players.
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@ZaKzan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1861389#Comment_1861389
Except DS isn't just a 5 second stun. Even if the gamestate is favorable to eat the stun, if the survivor runs in a straight line, it takes the killer about 23 seconds to catch up to the survivor, so it's not a 5 second stun, it's more like a 28 second stun. If the current conditions are unfavorable to eat a stun, like the survivor is near a hooked survivor or a downed survivor, you have to waste even more time, and then if the hooked survivor is also carrying DS, there is even more time lost.
Assuming there's at least 2 survivors working on gens at any one time, each DS is worth about 56 seconds of gen time. If all 4 survivors have DS, this is a maximum of 2.8 gens done just for running a single perk, regardless of personal skill or effort. If all survivors are running this perk, they only have to put effort into doing 2.2 gens each map.
There's also situations where DS can be used offensively where the killer can't do anything against it like here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpc6dcrH1NE&feature=emb_title
Sorry, but this video shows less about DS being a problem and more bad decision making on that killers part. Steve enters her vision almost 1 second after picking up, are you seriously telling me the spirit didn't hear or bother to check around for another survivor? In addition, she also missed a swing at the end which doesn't help and also has her power available meaning she could potentially have got one of them at the end. Why not also step back and lunge then follow up with another hit if the player was that concerned about DS being active?
I get it, we know DS is problematic in certain ways but this post blatantly misrepresents the perk and takes some serious liberty with maths. Its a 5 second stun, but one that only provides about 3-3.5 seconds of clearance once you take into account the drop animation. Unless the survivor has a pallet or window nearby chances are they're going down within a few seconds. If you aren't tunnelling the likelihood of being hit by 4 DS's is remote (unless you really are having the game of your life in which case you're probably already winning comfortably so slug and proceed to wait out the potential unbreakable).
Locker DS is a problem I agree, but I've seen more games lost due to aggressive plays by survivors trying to bait me with their DS instead of actually using the perk to get away, heal or focus on a generator.
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I'm honestly amazed at the amount of ignorance in this thread. DS is nowhere near this unbeatable godhood perk that some people are making it out to be. Is it problematic at the top levels of play because of it's synergy with other perks? Sure, but the idea that every game is being lost because of DS is nonsense. There are plenty of ways to play around it and a lot of killers have ways of making the perk less effective even after being hit.
That being said, it does need a rework, but only to reinforce the idea of penalising hard tunnel rather than in it's current form. What some players conveniently like to ignore is that in nearly all situations where you're hooking regularly enough to get 2 other survivors and then get hit by the first survivors DS you're already steamrolling the game. 5 seconds (actually 3 seconds once you factor in the drop animation) is going to do ######### all. If the person is in a dead zone then the perk might as well be non existent. If you can slug even a couple of survivors then they'll lose DS, potentially unbreakable if they have it and you'll likely force the other 2 off the generators. Does that work in every situation? No, but it's a damn solid strategy most of the time.
There are too many killers who blame DS for their loss rather than poor decision making. Sure, it certainly makes a bad situation worse, but it doesn't suddenly cause you to go from comfortably winning to losing unless you really ######### up. What I'd like to see it changed to is a per hook state mechanic similar to what we have now but on a 30 second timer rather than 60. Maybe make it so that it cant be used from lockers? (not sure as 30 seconds goes pretty quick). Adding mechanics to disable it when interacting with generators, totems or healing another survivor is just ######### as that would be easy to exploit by temporarily switching targets.
The other option would be a diminishing return type mechanic where the killer becomes more resistant to DS the more they're hit with it. The problem here is if they make DS useless, particularly for lower levels of play then killers are going to tunnel with impunity. I know it, you know it and the devs know it as well.
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Am I the only one who's more genuinely surprised to only see 1 DS in that line up.
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Some of us still main Billy despite the changes. I believe we're called masochists amongst the normal folk...
#BillyMainsRepresent
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@Kaiju said:
Oh back to the same thing. Was wondering why was taking so long. *inserts a response to why keys are balanced*
Dev's have covered it before. The problem is certain tomes need patching and also some steam achievements are linked to keys which they cannot easily get changed due to Steams TOS. They will eventually happen but it's not as straightforward as the mori change.
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@ChiSoxFan11 said:
The only thing I'll add to this is that I love Otzdarva. Absolutely love him and respect his opinions on the game. I think he's one of the best, if not THE best player I've seen play DBD, and he understands the game as good, if not better, than the anyone else, and that includes the people who work on the game for a living.
But what he finds boring doesn't necessarily correlate to the huge player base because he's SO good, and therefore not typical of the vast number of people playing the game. Same thing with other top players like OhToFu, Scott Jund, Tru, Ussylis, Aryun, etc. (both killer and survivor players -- that's just a handful). What their game experience is and what the rest of the player base experiences do not necessarily intersect.
It's like saying Michael Jordan felt something about playing basketball and trying to apply that to everyone else who ever played the game. Hordan was on a whole other level than anyone else. How the game played out for him wasn't even the same as other NBA players, never mind the average person picking up a basketball, so while whatever he thought would be an opinion that was valuable and worth listening to (as Otz's is in this case), it doesn't necessarily speak for the experience of the majority of people who play the game, and that has to be taken into account.
ETA: As a perfect example of that, OhToFu (who I love to watch as well) is currently doing a series on his YT channel where he's running killers with NO perks and the add-ons that HURT the player -- and he's still doing well in his matches, lol. He just played as Nurse and had a match that might as well have been 4K's (two people used a key to escape -- they would have been dead without it. He also had similarly good results all things considered with Billy, Trapper, and Wraith). He's so good that of course he doesn't need an Undying/Ruin combo to do well -- he doesn't even need perks to do well. But he's in that top 1% or better of players -- he's not a typical DBD player, clearly.
I agree with this sentiment, but there is a problem which too many people deliberately overlook. Competitive SWF / Deathsquads aren't reflective of the general population either despite claims to the contrary on here. Does it suck when I get rekt and get 0 kills or seeing 3 generators fly because I made a few wrong calls? Sure, I recognise that there is plenty of room for improving to minimise the chances of that happening, but by the same token there are also games where the survivors get destroyed with 2 gens up. The issue with ruin and undying isn't so much about protecting ruin, but more about the combination countering it's own counter. On high mobility killers, particularly good nurse players, the information provided by the aura reading on dull totems is absurd. Combine that with players who know the game like the back of their hand or non SWF teams and it isn't hard to see why it's problematic.
The point being that if we're talking about balancing for top level play and how perks can be abused by survivors / deathsquads then we have to also do the same for killers. I'm willing to bet that the latter would be getting nerfed a lot harder than the former which is why people are quick to chuck out the "Otz doesn't reflect average killers" while conveniently ignoring the opposite. That being said, I would like to see more defensive options being added for killers to slow the game down such as improved base regression on normal kicks
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@Ivaldi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1849643#Comment_1849643
4 gens in 2:42 seconds.. Yeah because he literally let them? How many mistakes did he make in that 2:42 seconds? How long did it take him to Blood Fury? It took him over 3 minutes just to get a single down and he tries to put on a false narrative about Gen Rushing. He didn't put any pressure on them at all and kept talking about 1 dead hard causing it.
0:15 starts chase with Jake
0:59 breaking the pallet instead of blood lusting around it. The only way its an infinite is if the survivor never makes a mistake. Survivors will clip a barrel or the edge of something.
1:20 double backing when you can clearly tell by Jake's cries and his blood orbs that he kept running straight.
1:30 Leaves Jake to start chase with Claudette
1:33 failed to commit to the Claudette and lost her in the cornfields do to his double backing.
1:38 starts 3rd chase with Nea
1:42 tried to make a fancy play when he could have committed and hit the Nea through the pallet.
1:55 commits to chase with Nea when she was leading him away from the other survivors towards a strong loop.
2:15 triple vaulting the same window to try and mind game
2:55 loses Nea and starts up chase again with Jake
3:21 Gets first down on Jake (1st person he started chasing)
I'm so glad someone else went to the trouble of highlighting all the poor decisions he made that game. It's the same problem every time I've seen someone link one of his videos to "prove" a point. He overcommits to chases he doesn't need to, leaves other chases far too early and complains about dead hard when a lot of the time it's his own poor judgement causing the pressure to build up.
Even factoring in all of the above, he STILL gets a 4K out of it. Don't get me wrong, he's a better killer than me for certain but you don't have to be an expert to see how and why he was getting steamrolled.
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No disrespect but what exactly is this video designed to show? That a killer who isn't even applying pressure properly can be rushed by a coordinated team stacking toolboxes and generator orientated perks? Come off it, killers have issues, particularly related to SWF games but this is just disingenuous.
It's also very telling how the video cuts away before it gets to the pip screen (yeah yeah we know, rank means nothing) as they would have likely depipped from that game (maybe a black if lucky). It also conveniently doesn't show the killers rank or anyone else's in the game. In addition, no one is running any obsession perks so a killer who wants to slug and hard tunnel is going to have a field day.
As I said, no disrespect but this is a very weak attempt at proving generator speeds are a problem.
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Duplicate - forum bug
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Duplicate - forum bug
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It looks like DBD and Minecraft had a baby which somehow ended up an even bigger abomination than Victor. I know a lot of effort went into redoing the map but it honestly looks worse than before.
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Duplicate - forum bug
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@Madjura said:
It's a bug, happens randomly.
I knew I wasn't going insane. Thanks for confirming that other people are experiencing this. Out of interest, have you also found that you get caught on objects when sprinting a lot easier as well? Something seems off about his collisions as well.