ChiTenshi
ChiTenshi
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@SirCracken said:
Just woke up and saw how much this thread blew up. I'm going to run down some of the counter arguments I've been seeing as to why DS shouldn't be nerfed.
"It counters tunneling"This is very common misconception from people who don't understand killer priorities. If in a game as killer, you know that at least 1 out of the 4 survivors will instantly escape your grasp after an unhook, you'll want to get rid of that second chance as soon as possible.
Why?
Because although losing a survivor can falter your game momentum, it's far better to eat the stun early on when if the gates are opened the survivor will simply run towards them after the stun and get a free escape. And once you've eaten a stun, you know which of the 4 survivors no longer has DS, encouraging you to tunnel them further as to get your momentum back.
DS, essentially, promotes tunnelling. It doesn't counter it at all.
"It punishes campers"Ignoring the fact that some individuals see existing on the map as camping, this is also false. Say it's the end game and you've got someone hooked. Both the gates are open and you have no idea where the other survivors are.
Why would you leave the hook? It is only strategically sound decision to make if you want a kill. Camping is the only viable option.
Now say that despite you camping the person on the hook they are saved in your face and immediately downed again. How is it far that they should then get a free escape because the killer was playing optimally?
in this scenario, it is physically impossible to down someone else because the gates are already opened and if you can't insta-down anyone they'll just run to gates after getting injured. Why, then, should picking up the only person that it makes sense to down result in the person getting a free escape?
True, in some cases killers in-optimally decide to camp when they could patrol gens. But even then camping already has a counter that existed way before DS.
Doing gens while the killer isn't pressuring them.
Deciding to unhook in the killer's face should not be rewarded. Doing your objective should.
"It helps solo players when they have bad team mates"I'll agree that it can be frustrating as hell when some idiot unhooks me directly in front of the killer. But punishing the killer for capitalising on survivor mistakes isn't the way to fix this.
In my opinion, dbd should be balanced around 4 player communication and completely close the gap between solo players and 4-man squads.
Keeping DS in it's current state, a state that can be just as easily abused by a single player as it can 4, just promotes stale gameplay and further sours the already boring survivor perk meta.
"You're just a bad killer. Go after someone else and stop tunneling"As much of a straw man as this seems, I've seen this "argument" fairly often in the forums.
Needless to say that anyone who uses it has their opinion on the matter automatically voided.
Ad Hominem's don't equal good points. Stop using them and try to understand the game better before making stupid statements.
"DS just needs some changes to balance it out. The locker tech isn't the problem."One of the more reasonable arguments, but still wrong.
Ever since DS has been released it has been broken. Giving a survivor a free escape without a drawback in any context is objectively bad design.
Can you imagine if there was a killer perk that automatically downed survivors who tried to repair gens once per match with no drawbacks?
That's DS. A perk that punishes the killer for doing their job correctly and rewards the survivor for making mistakes.
The locker tech is just compounding the problem of how DS is designed.
"Just make it so that DS deactivates once the survivor starts performing an action like repairing or healing"While I agree that this is a step in the right direction, it still doesn't fix the problem of DS becoming a free escape during the end game.
This could also be easily abused by survivors that deliberately body block after getting saved so the killer has to wait out the timer anyway, or just eat the stun. Speaking of which...
"Just eat the stun"I've already mentioned just how bad eating a stun is for your game momentum as a killer. This logic is like saying "just get downed after you're exposed by MYC". Except MYC actually has a specific requirement to activate that the killer has to go out of their way to ensure it does.
Whereas DS has such an easy to activate requirement that anyone, no matter how bad, will still be able to waste the killer's time by making mistakes. Something that they should actively avoid doing.
"DS isn't even a problem"This is the last one I'll address for now.
If you genuinely think this, you don't understand the game on a fundamental level.
Giving a side, in any game, rewards for messing up makes the game stale and boring because there's less incentive to perform well and improve.
A well coordinated team of survivors doesn't even need perks to completely ruin 9-10 killer's day. But the existence of DS makes it so that the same can be true of people who have no idea what they're doing.
In short, not only does the locker tech with DS desperately need to go, the perk needs a massive drawback for the power it offers.
Something that will affect the survivor both during the early and end game.
Well that's all she wrote. Thanks for making it this far. I never expected my post would get this much attention.
1) It's core design is to counter tunnelling, that we can't deny. It's supposed to punish a Killer if they pursue a player who was recently unhooked.
Currently, it is used for more than countering tunnelling.
2) It unintentionally counters camping. It's not designed to counter camping, but it will help a Survivor to escape from a camped situation.
3) You're looking at this from the wrong angle. You ask "Why should the Killer be punished for Survivor mistakes?", but ignore "Why should the unhooked Survivor be punished for another Survivor's mistake?".
This is why DS was designed to be strong. Solo Survivors need a chance to get out of the situation that they've been unfairly dropped into. Yes, it's unfair to the Killer who wants to tunnel, but that's why it's an anti-tunnel perk.
4) The person who posted that statement is an idiot.
5) There is a drawback of having to be hooked to activate it (don't know why this is glossed over). A Killer equivalent perk would be MYC.
Balance changes are needed, and once applied the Locker + DS combo won't be an issue.
6) It punishes the Survivor for doing anything else other than being chased.
7) The statement misses some detail. If you can catch the Survivor easily, eat the stun. If not, chase someone else. Eating the stun is a valid option, but only against some Survivors.
8) DS needs some balance changes, most of the community agrees on that.
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@Okoru said:
LOL Insidious isn't that strong. I don't think it needs a nerf. Stop trying to nerf killers.
Que?
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@Aura_babyy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1137515#Comment_1137515
I was also thinking that at some point, but I decided it was best to not put it up because Tinkerer and Dark Devotion works this way as well.
Think it might be a small detail BHVR need to add to the Undetectable description XD
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@mistar_z said:
i mean it wouldn't be soo cheesy if ds was just 5-15 seconds shorter.
Possible change; "When not being chased, DS decays 3 times faster."
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That's a significantly better change.
Camping is still an option but with a limit on how long you can camp with stealth, and with a sensible restriction so you *can't chain hook to achieve perma-stealth.
Removing the stand still requirement encourages the Killer to not camp (use the stealth to try and catch someone else), and makes the perk more flexible with builds.
My only suggestion would be having the undetectable status disable after hitting someone or being stunned.
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I alternate between DBD and a calm game like Minecraft or Animal Crossing.
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@rhodamia said:
You can't win the argument for a DS change against people who have never been on the killer side with
Squad of identical people and you don't know who you are chasing.
Someone getting off the hook, pointing at you, then hopping in a locker in your face.
Someone repeatedly getting in and out of a locker over and over and over with loud noise notifications just to annoy you because you can't do anything about it.
Bodyblocking to use a BT hit, which then makes them the target of a chase, only to hop in a locker because you can't open it for a minute. So why not.
The problem isn't tunneling. The problem is the ability to abuse the perk despite what the killer does. Sure it fixed tunneling. But it causes other issues.
The solution? IDK. But it should fix tunneling without allowing bullying.
The perk description currently could be "do whatever you want for 90 seconds. As long as you are near a locker the killer will ignore you or you can stun him"
Which translates to
"You can be a prick in the killers face for about 80 seconds. As long as you are near a locker, the killer will ignore you or you can stun him to further your trolling"
It's just not fun on the killer side.
All of this from an ex-red-rank-killer-main who is now a current-red-rank-survivor-main and I run DS every game lol. It's fun for survivors to have power like that. It's not fun for killer.
But again. You won't win the argument. Nobody wants to give away their fun in order to fix something that's broken for someone else. Good try though. I commend the effort.
You can win an argument with a sensible change. All the changes I've seen regarding DS either heavily punish the Survivor for doing anything other than getting chased, or create situations that either a Survivor or Killer can abuse.
Anytime those kinds of changes are suggested, you're going to get a backlash.
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@ermsy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1137094#Comment_1137094
There is a big difference if you don't pick them up after downing them.
What's the difference between leaving them on the ground and leaving them in the Locker?
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Minimum requirement; it should take the Killer 5 seconds to check whether the other exit gate is being opened. Not 5 seconds to walk from one to the other, but 5 seconds to walk over and check the visible signs of whether a Survivor is opening the gate or not.
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@Dwinchester said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1137032#Comment_1137032
And you have two other survivors hammering out gens while you're dicking around. Oh and the guy you slugged has unbreakable, so you lost the hook and you're still chasing the flashlight guy.
"But it's alright because you NOED, and whilst the Survivors were too busy focusing on gens or helping each other they forgot to do totems. Now they're all down because they panicked."
If we're going to assume Perks set-ups, play-styles, etc, then the discussion is pointless because there are endless possibilities of what can happen.
Stick with the parameters of the situation and work with that.
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@Pirscher said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1137095#Comment_1137095
BT says hello back!
But those Killers aren't giving off a Terror Radius...
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DS should still work if the Survivor gets pulled out a Locker, reason, because they were tunnelled.
If you're chasing them and DS is active, what's the difference between downing them and picking them up or pulling them out of a Locker?
Honestly, nothing.
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Making the basement a bit more interactive would be interesting, but not too overkill though XD
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Gonna go for: Knock-out + Deerstalker + Infectious Fright + Distressing
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It's less about who you use or what you take, and more how you play.
Biggest thing to make the match fun for Survivors, don't camp or tunnel. That will make them enjoy the match more.
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I'll leave this here.
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Wouldn’t recommend Surge, too situational (requires 3-gen strat) and there are other perks that do a similar job but are useful in more situations.
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Bunny otaku and religious waifu (she’s a bit sick atm).
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You have insulted both of my waifu’s, prepare to die.
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@Mister_xD said:
just wait next to the hook when they do it.
you basically get to facecamp 2 players at once, its the most profitable facecamp ever!
and since that one guy is sitting there, you will also not get a penality on your chaser emblem.
you can also hit them there, if you walk up close to the hook and attack it, as the hit will connect with the crouching survivors hitbox rather than the hooked ones. but there is a risk to that, so the double camp is the safest solution.
The problem is, you indirectly penalise the other player due to another player’s actions. It feel horrible to be forced to play unfairly against a person who doesn’t deserve it.
You may be able to hit them, but you don’t really want to encourage players to use exploits for the wrong reasons. Rewards them for he wrong behaviour.
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@Alice_pbg said:
I mean...I just stand there looking at him.
Because I really don't care if he wants to waste time doing ######### all 🤷♂️
There’s 2 things that make this bug bad though:
1) It penalises the hooked player. I can stand there, but it punishes the innocent person as well. They may not know the player or even how hook tech works, but I’m indirectly camping them for the wrong reasons.
2) It can be a gateway exploit. It may be more of a downfall, but if we allow players to abuse it then they will start using more exploits and potentially hacks thinking they will be fine getting away with this. BHVR have counter-measures to stop this, but I don’t want to see potentially worse exploits/hacks in matches.
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@Cheers said:
Same here.
I get loads of hate after the match for camping yet what am I meant to do? Let them unhook the survivor?
Honestly survivors need to understand that if I know there is a survivor near by, I am not leaving the area.
That was pretty much my last match. They verbally abused me, used hateful speech and threatened me, simply because I had the audacity to camp someone who tried to use the Hook Tech.
Some players have such a backward mindset.
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@LordGlint said:
They already have a fix for this, which is currently on PTB. Pretty sure we get THAT patch tomorrow so... "hook tech" will be dead soon.
Excellent.
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TBF, that’s the Plague’s issue as well when no-one cleanses. It’s why the next change for her is to start a match with 1 Pool of Corruption ready.
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Would be good if Dark Devotion applied during Feral Frenzy, could make a "Quick & Quiet" build based on it.
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The only Memento Mori that needs changing is Ebony. Cypress + Ivory only affect 1 player and have a sensible requirement.
None of the changes here would fix Ebony Mori.
If it applies on the second hook, it's rather pointless. You may as well hook the Survivors 3 times.
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So penalise the Survivors when the Killer has poor gen control?
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@Peanits said:
You know you just admitted to taking the game hostage, which is against the rules, right?
Ban-hammer?
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I like to play Forever Legion
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Small buff - Demogorgon no longer does 'STOMPS' whilst undetectable.
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@Fibijean said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1123934#Comment_1123934
I think what others are trying to say is that it was just that, an option. The point of contention seems to be whether or not a DC was necessary in this scenario, on the premise that a DC is only justifiable if the player has no other choice. It may have felt necessary to the player who didn't know what was going on, but it can't be justified on the basis that there was nothing else they could do, because there was.
For the record, I don't believe you were arguing that they had to DC. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seemed to me that you were just trying to say that a DC would have been reasonable under the circumstances, if one takes into consideration the fact that they didn't know what was going on and had no way of knowing that the problem would resolve itself. Carpe was saying that since that bug did resolve itself, a DC was unneeded and therefore unjustified. In a way, you're both right.
Either way, @gelukrait, the answer to your question is that what you should do in that scenario is wait for a resolution, unfortunate as that is, because you're not actually stuck indefinitely in that scenario even though it may seem like it. You can disconnect, obviously, but I wouldn't encourage it and neither, I'm fairly certain, would the devs. You won't get banned from the game for a DC unless you make a habit of it, but you will get locked out of the matchmaking queue for a short time.
Pretty much hit the nail on the head.
Although disconnecting is a bannable offence and heavily frowned upon in the community, it's an option that needs to be considered for some situations. The Devs won't approve but will be fully understanding if you choose to DC for the above.
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@CandyBard said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1120253#Comment_1120253
I'm honestly surprised anyone takes you seriously when youre so dismissive of opposing opinions. Carpe gave a solid rebuttal, and youre treating them as if they're crazy, or stupid, for not agreeing with you.
You dont HAVE to disconnect when you bug out like this. Its not a requirement, so refuting that makes you wrong. Thats not an opinion, thats a fact. Whether you choose to dc or not is up to you, and you can reason it however you want, but as seen in the clip, it does get resolved, so a disconnect is not mandatory.
I'm treating them like a crazy person because what they're saying is in the video isn't factually correct, they are completely ignoring the player's PoV (and anyway who states this), and they have heavily edited their comments to make opposing comments look bad.
I will not continue a discussion with someone like that.
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You need to remember that the player did not know they were going to be free, they thought they were stuck in the falling animation after being unhooked. If you are stuck due a bug and you don't know how long you'll be stuck (5 minutes, 10 minutes, 1 hour), then disconnecting is definitely an option.
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What perk set-up did you have?
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I'll leave this here.
*Not my meme, will ref creator later.
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Directly looking at him reveals your position, if you look at him from the edge of the screen he won't be notified you're looking at him.
Spine Chill is very helpful in this situation as well, as it inform you when a Killer is coming without having to look.
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@HellDescent said:
I doubt they ever banned anyone for dc
They do for repeat offenders.
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@Mikeasaurus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1120220#Comment_1120220
After 3 minutes yes. Personally, I'd have DC'd and explained to the killer/survivors what happened. Would you enjoy being stuck like this for 3 minutes knowing theres nothing you can do, and others think you just decided to go AFK?
Finally, a sane person.
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@Carpemortum said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1120205#Comment_1120205
Yet, it did fix itself as soon as they were unhooked and picked up.
Why are you so dead set on justifying a DC right now?
I’m not continuing this argument with you, you are intentionally ignoring what I’m saying and I’m not going to continue feeding a troll.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1119990#Comment_1119990
When the originally got the black screen, they WERE hooked
For 15 seconds, that’s a bit short of a wait time before considering hook suicide. I would have done what they did and waited to be unhooked to see if the bug to fixes itself, unfortunately that didn’t happen.
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@Carpemortum said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1119977#Comment_1119977
Yes which eventually ended, resulting in going to the postgame screen. Did you not read the post or what I said?
Also, they were falling after being hooked, even if the HUD didnt show it. Watch it again.
They dont have to DC because they're not STUCK IN GAME. It's a bug, and it's unfortunate, but it ended and kicked them out. They were only bugged during the hook, which I stated, and you obviously didnt read, and were not stuck in the game indefinitely. There is no need to DC when the game did that for them regardless.
Watch the whole clip. I will go through it step by step with you.
First, they were hooked. This made the screen go black but they weren’t in a falling animation, essentially they were blind.
Second, they were unhooked. Look at their health state when it changes from hooked to injured, it glows a brighter shade of red. This indicates a change in their health state. The unhook put them in the falling animation. From the players point of view, they are stuck in a falling animation; they can’t wait to die on a hook as they are not hooked, they don’t know if they will ever return to the map, they think they are permanently stuck in an animation they can’t get out by themselves. Disconnecting here is not a bad option and the Devs should be highly understanding why it was done.
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@LordGlint said:
Looks like the killer was trying to help you. You dont actually get teleported out of the basement or anything, so once the killer pulled you out of there, if you had wiggled off it wouldve fixed it. I THINK that killer was trying to tell you to wiggle and help your friend up. Either way, you'd still catch a DC penalty if you DC so id suggest if your in a situation like that one to suicide on hook.
They were probably stuck in disbelief so didn't know how to react once they were free.
Also, hook suicide when they're not hooked?
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@Carpemortum said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1119950#Comment_1119950
They werent. They were bugged while hooked but when the timer ended they got kicked to post game screen. Still a bug. But nobody was stuck.
They were stuck in a falling animation whilst in the injured state, or are we watching different videos?
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TIL; BBQ & Chilli is an anti-gen perk.
It goes well with Insidious which counters looping, Third Seal which helps to find Survivors, and NOED which ends chases quicker during the early game.
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As long as you record the bug (like you did) and report it, then DCing should be fine if you're physically stuck in-game.
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The only feature I would change on the Key is remove it from chest spawns.
If a Survivor plans to escape via hatch, they should weigh up whether or not to risk bringing a key rather than lucking out.
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@Auron471 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1116302#Comment_1116302
That was the intention.
Nah, it’s had its 20 years of fame. It should sit in the background for a year or 2.
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Better ways to shake the Meta
Dead Hard - Can only be triggered once for every time you enter the injured health state.
DS - Removed when healed to full or another Survivor is unhooked.
Adrenaline - Aura is revealed to Killer for X seconds.
Surge - Applies other gen de-buffs to the closest gen.
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With that Overcharge change, you somehow made Ruin Meta again,
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@Groxiverde said:
My main criticism of his video is that I think bamboozle is 5/5 and not 3/5. Yes, maybe Bamboole is trash on the nurse or the spirit, but on m1 killers it is GOD tier. Just my opinion.
It’s the main issue when making any Killer Perk related Tier List, you have to generalise a lot of Perks despite their influence varying from Killer to Killer.
Killer Tier lists are better specified to individual Killers.
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She's a tricky one to balance around and the Devs will probably take their time before doing any further changes to her.