Carth
Carth
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- Carth
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I don't like it because outside of a few maps where walls busted help survivors this would hurt the survivor team. Imagine dead dawg saloon and you have a teammate doing some challenge that walls count for and they bust as many as they can with this item or for new players they might get this item and assume it's a great idea to break any walls they see and then get totally burnt/burn a team member due to breaking the wall. This is really BHVRS fault for not knowing what breakable walls should be and creating two variants where some are good for killers and some are good for survivors and the only way to know that is by playing the game a lot.
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@squirtinq said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3211521#Comment_3211521
Agree with facecamping nerf, amen.
I understand the rotations with 2-3 survivors, but now let's bring up Exposed. Now it's basically impossible to do anything.
We can create a lot of what if scenarios but you make a great point that there are certain situations where you just get burnt. That's true for both sides but the important part is for sure toning down how strong the benefit of camping is
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@squirtinq said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3211473#Comment_3211473
Like I stated in my reply to someone else, if you want to level/grade up, you need iridescent points to get to iridescent grade. Camping ruins the Altruism part, so why should it be there anyway?
Can we talk about Altruism instead of skipping it?
Face camping should 100% be nerfed. That said you have a team of 3 other players with you, you need at least two people versus a standard m1 killer to have an almost 100% success rate of unhooking and not trading. And no, you don't need comms to do this, just two players who understand that a killer cannot do two actions at once.
He's going to try to grab/damage one of the healthy survivors and the other unhooks. The three survivors rotate based on what the killer does to bodyblock and ideally everyone runs away injured. Worst case scenario a trade does occur but the other two should be able to get away/react to whatever the killer does.
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I mean you said it yourself, BHVR(and most of the community) didn't like that certain loops lost the ability to mind-game because you play at a certain resolution. Certain tiles were clearly designed such that you can't peek at your opponent over the height of a wall/pile of trash/etc but with stretched you basically had wall hacks on them. The balance problem outweighs the "I like playing at x resolution and it isn't supported well" problem
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I feel like it's the exact same minus being able to go "rainbow match" at the end of the game. MMR is so loose/priority is on finding matches quickly vs considering skill.(think streamers waiting hours to find matches with equally skilled players when MMR was first being introduced vs now)
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There are plenty of powerful things a solo survivor can do; 8 second heals via green medkits, Basekit BT, soon to be 22.5 second infinite unbreakable, 45 second gens via hyperfocus + stakeout + toolbox. Yes, if survivors are bad and do not know how to play or bring proper loadouts/solo queue problems occur then you will lose, but a skilled survivor team will have no problems. Should we be using perkless addonless trapper as an example of killers having a rough time? Solo queue will always be bad, you could give solo perma aura reading and would that help you with a teammate who wants to cleanse 5 totems for a challenge? Or rummage in every chest on the map? Or one who is memeing/running no mither?
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BHVR: "Gen speeds are too fast at 80 seconds we are adding 10 to slow the game down!"
also
BHVR: "45 second gens with an item and 2 perks makes sense!"
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@sonata93 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202070#Comment_3202070
Tbf, BT was never 'meta' in the sense that it gave survivors an overwhelming competitive advantage; survivors ran it because face-camping and tunneling people off-hook was so rampant (and still is to a certain degree). Surely we can all agree that being downed straight off a hook and being put straight back on the said hook was never fun or productive gameplay?
I take it you never experienced a good swf who body blocked + ds'd at EGC? Basically if 3 survivors were alive and you didn't have max stacks stbfl/an insta down killer they got out for free. The reason why every anti-tunnel & anti-camp mechanic has been made weaker is because SWF weaponizes it to be as efficient/maximize as much gain as possible. Even outside of EGC the one who got off hook being able to bodyblock for the unhooker is silly. It completely ceases being 'anti-tunnel/anti-camp' as soon as you are using it to protect the health state of a teammate.
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@Irisora said:
That combo is overestimated.. not everyone touch their config file to plays with V-sync off and unlocked frames, its much harder to constantly hit the great skill with input lag.
It's -45 seconds
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The only time the blocker will make a difference is if you are injured and get tossed into the wall and go down. If you are healthy and just run into the wall weskers cooldown is long enough he cannot injure you via an m1 or another bound before you get through
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Pretty sure MMR is so relaxed at this point it might as well not even be on.
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It's a terrible idea. Just like Myers 4k achievement via evil within, survivors will be able to instantly tell what you are doing via the hidden offering and will just hide on purpose if they are the last survivor alive and you close hatch because at least that way they can block your bonus x BP. It will be one of the new "fun" ways to troll killers and I can already imagine the "LEL dude nice mori!!! EZ" chat if you manage to prevent a killers offering from going off.
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If you hate it that much bring WoO. It's a solid perk even outside of dredge and unless he's running third seal/his blindness addon you will be able to see vaults and pallets through darkness and still loop
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Do you leave a gen at 75%+ to go work on one at 0%? No? Why would a killer be expected to also make poor decisions? The fact that you call it "loose proxying" make me wonder what the definition of that even is.
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@Omans said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202725#Comment_3202725
Ah, you’re one of those killer mains who thinks every match is a 4-man sweat squad on comms. Enough said.
Nice dodge, So it's a lose/lose when facing sabo with the newly designed perks? To be clear I think 4 man slugging and slugging for hatch should 100% be deleted. But just like boil over and the endurance stacking meta on the PTB recently, this is way too strong of a solution.
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@Omans said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202239#Comment_3202239
Sabo plays and hook deadzones? What..? There are almost always at least 2 hooks in hooking distance. Boil over? Lol.
A couple areas will need to be looked at/altered, but all the doom and gloom is really unwarranted.
The fact that you don't think a hook deadzone is a thing or sabo plays benefit from this speaks volumes. "Lol survivors playing smart and using perks intelligently? No dude!! They're all gonna swarm the pallet and you just get them to drop it and pick the guy up! EZ ez!!!"
Just for fun please describe what to do vs the new unbreakable + soul guard with another survivor saboing the hook after around 8 seconds of travel.
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Massively, with a 22.5 second unbreakable timer cheeky sabo plays are win/win. The only caveat/missing piece is if the killer hangs around the slug trying to get them again when they unbreakable up. That's where you combo it with soul guard for a 100% guaranteed escape. I can also already see the cheeky plays/montages around the slug jump up and body blocking for the saboer while they loop with the endurance from soul guard and both zoom off.
What's really amazing about this it's just a 50% perk investment to do the above. You can still bring hyperfocus + stakeout and slam out gens in 45 seconds AND you just need 1 or 2 people with sabo/toolboxes to do so. You can also feel free to drop soul guard for an exhaustion perk if you would rather have chase power over the endurance on getting up from slugged.
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@toxik_survivor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202572#Comment_3202572
4 minutes. I'm sure you can spare 4 min of your life. Worse case you go afk and go to your job cause the game took 4 more minutes than it should of
To clarify slugging someone because the game is still going and they bleed out is fine to me. Slugging 4 people where nobody can get up and nobody can do anything clearly and waiting for all 4 to die serves no purpose except to waste everyone's time and rub the killer victory in
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4 man slugging on the ground to be toxic and force people to wait for 4 minutes and slugging for hatch should go. The solution to that should not be to obliterate slugging as a whole and give massive, massive buffs to SWF and sabo squads.
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@Bardon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202369#Comment_3202369
"very small changes"?
Seriously?
Even you have to admit that these are big changes.
"They had to do something, at least a little" is a huge concession coming from Sluzzy.
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I agree and I hope they add in basekit DS next and let killers do a silly animation at the exit gate in return, maybe dab hard but for killers? Anyways, finally some good killer buffs!
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@AlyssaaMac said:
current unbreakable is 24 seconds. its a 1.5 second difference
You're right, except the new one can also be used infinitely whereas the old one requires the additional travel time of n after the first useage where n represents how long it takes the survivor who picks them up to get to them. The new one has no n value.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202186#Comment_3202186
Do all game decisions have to be made based on how it will work for SWF? While I don't know if there are any recent numbers to my understanding this is a minority of the player base.
If Unbreakable ends up being that powerful and 22 seconds is game breaking do you think they won't touch it? We just had BHVR telling us that they want kill rates around 60% - it seems unlikely that they would radically change their opinion on that idea a week later.
A great question! Let's do a quick track record of absolutely busted things given to survivors that had to be rolled back in dbds history
1. Infinites
2. Pallet vaccum
3. Insta heals
4. Insta blinds
5. BNP insta completing a gen
6. Stun/blind at any part of the pickup animation dropping the survivor
7. Old mettle of man
8. Old circle of healing
9. Old Decisive strike
10. Old object of obsession
11. Old dead hard
So, given BHVRS track record of survivor things I think it totally reasonable that yes they will flub it and let it go to live and then patch it months/years later like all of the issues highlighted above. Many of which were called out regularly and in some cases in advance on the PTB and still got in.
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@Omans said:
Apart from SWF's who go down on a pallet, and Unbreakable probably being a bit too fast, this change is almost wholly good.
It's nice to see a bunch of killer-only players telling on themelves and their playstyles, though.
I probably have more hours in killer alone than many players on this forum have in the game, and apart from what I said above, this is a good thing.
Sabo plays? Boil over? Hook deadzones? Or are you a magical killer player who never encounters any of the above?
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But you got .2 seconds off survivor sprint burst? You don't want to play vs infinite unbreakable with that?
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not in my opinion no, sub 5 meter changes and fractions of seconds cannot compare to borrowed time and infinite unbreakable. We could say they were the same if killers got STBFL(the entire perk) for free and if we got brutal strength(the entire perk) for free.
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@Brimp said:
You misread their post. Its a flat 45 second duration from being downed. It doesn't let the recovery system fully complete until the 45 seconds are up.
this is false according to BHVRS post "This time is affected by recovery speed effects""
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@malibu_barbie_26 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201948#Comment_3201948
I guess my answer is don’t slug and the basekit unbreakable would be doing exactly what it intended to do. There’s no reason to keep multiple survivor on the ground to bleed out when you can easily just place them on hook. Now if survivors are taking aggro maybe the recover timer should move slower. That way you can’t be baited by a downed survivor.
To be clear nobody, or at least most people who play both sides, thinks that 4 man slugging or slugging for hatch is fun/fair. This change impacts far more than just those two scenarios. Saboing hooks is receiving a MASSIVE buff with this idea. Say I down a survivor, pick him up, take him to the closest hook in a jungle gym(lets say 8 seconds of travel time) another survivor is there and sabos the hook when I round the corner. I don't have time to make it to another hook + deal with the bodyblock. In todays world I can drop the survivor and chase the saboer and still get pressure in that a survivor needs to get off of a gen to come pick the slug up the rest of the way. In the proposed world no one will get off gens and that survivor is going to pop up off of the ground very soon by himself, essentially erasing or losing me however much time I spent in chase to down that survivor. I did not want to slug, nor did I toxically do it to troll the person but that's literally the only play when someone sabos successfully. I can go on and list other scenarios as well(boil over, hook deadzones, swf bodyblock plays, etc) but the point is this impacts far far more than just toxic people 4 man slugging for 4 mins and hatch prevention.
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@malibu_barbie_26 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201751#Comment_3201751
Soul Guard is very situational and you would need to bring a Hex totem.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201765#Comment_3201765
Again situational perks which once pallets are used up become less and less meaningful.
Hes referring to the endurance part of soul guard which has no requirement on a hex and combos amazingly with unbreakable and the proposed any survivor can get up an infinite number of times
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@Raccoon said:
Technically, killers gave Brutal Strength Tier 1 and 2 permanent stacks of STBFL.
Probably not the perks you're looking for, but they are definitely there.
By this logic revert basekit BT and give survivors perma 15% audio reduction(partial iron will) and instead of unbreakable they no longer disturb crows(partial calm spirit). I'm being cheeky but the survivor base kit meta perks are significantly stronger than .2 and .3 second reductions here and there
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Surely no one will be able to sabo a hook forcing the killer to drop and that essentially erases their last chase since the surv can get themselves up. Surely they won't bring unbreakable plus soul guard to counter the killer camping to negate the killer hanging out around them. Surely they won't get up and body block with the 8 second window of endurance from soul guard.
Surely this change will only impact people slugging to troll or slugging to prevent hatch.
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.2 second changes == free meta perks?
I propose a .1 second addition back to survivor sprint burst and no way out is now basekit and bringing the perk increases each tokens value by an additional 4 seconds.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201193#Comment_3201193
So, part of what you're missing here is the intended function of the changes, on both sides. Just saying "meta perks" is extremely misleading, because they weren't "meta perks", they were specific meta perks. Specifically, the ones that covered for basekit gaps; the ones that were meta specifically because the game was lacking at basekit and survivors had extreme incentive to bring those or suffer at the hands of a killer employing certain tactics.
As for the basekit changes, you're cherrypicking. Not well, because the post-hit sprint was one of the more impactful changes, but still- the point of the less noticeable changes, like the blade-wipe animation and the pallet-kick animation, was for you to have less overall downtime across the entire trial. But the more important changes were the 90 second generator change, the extra regression on generator kick, and the post-hit sprint reduction, all of which gave killers far more room to generate pressure. They were good changes and they were the equivalent of basekit BT, they aimed to address perks killers felt they needed to bring or suffer at the hands of a coordinated team.
For the record, I am resolutely neutral on the basekit Unbreakable. I will have to see both it being tested on the PTB and whatever changes they make before it hits live before I can commit to an opinion. Right now, I think it could be a good idea but has too many blind spots to be abused without further changes.
The point I am trying to make is giving killers a 1.2 second benefit here and there is not the same as giving basekit perks out and buffed variants to the survivor team. I don't want to do the math but every single change of 6.1 other than the DH nerf and 10 seconds to gens is negligible(on the order of sub 1 second benefits and sub 5 meter deltas in chase, true they do add up, I would argue that they still are not worth basekit unbreakable). The mini pop is on the order of sub 1 second gained(1.8 seconds to kick the gen, .025 * 90 = 2.25 seconds shaved off, it's still a net loss of time for the killer assuming other survivors are on gens)
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How are you looking at this and coming to the conclusion that is isn't sided in a particular direction? Survivors get base kit unbreakable and now a stronger variant off the perk(being able to get up multiple times in 22.5 seconds) whereas killers get, what, a 45 second window where they can insta end the game if all survivors are down? Are you regularly downing 3-4 survivors in a 45 second(this is literally the best case for the killer now, expo and unbreakable both lower this time drastically) window in your games?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201153#Comment_3201153
So, you're talking about two separate spheres of issues there; you're asking about killer equivalents to basekit changes and you're talking about unbalanced perks/builds on the survivor side. Those are two separate things, so I'll answer them separately, I hope that's alright.
To the unbalanced stuff like eight second heals and Hyperfocus builds, the answer is you don't. Those things are overtuned and need to be brought in line, but they're also not super relevant to the basekit changes because they're a case of improving your chances of winning, not responding to/countering unfun tactics.
As for the killer equivalents, what would the killer equivalents be? Obviously there's all the basekit changes from 6.1.0, those are the killer equivalents to, say, the basekit BT. But after that... what perk becoming basekit would universally help killers in the way that the survivor changes help them? If you squint, slightly shuffle definitions around, and completely ignore both Trapper and Hag, you could maybe get to Corrupt Intervention, but that's the only example I can think of and personally I don't want that to become basekit. It's kind of a false equivalent, killers don't have specific perks they need to bring in case survivors take advantage of basekit gaps like tunnelling and camping on the killer end.
Let's look at the "basekit changes" that have been given. Killers got .2 and .3 second changes, survivors get 2 meta perks basekit now and actually buffed variants if they bring those perks still. Are you really going to compare a .2 second change to sprint burst to basekit BT and unbreakable?
(4.0 * 1.5 * 2.0) = 12 vs (4.0 * 1.5 * 1.8) + (4.0 * .2) = 8.64 + .8 = 9.44 or a difference of 2.56 meters.
In your opinion 2.56 meters less distance holding w is the same as basekit unbreakable and borrowed time?
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@jesterkind said:
Putting aside the potential issues with a basekit Unbreakable, is that not a good thing?
There are a lot of perks on both sides that, historically, it's felt damn near necessary to bring. Surely it's a good thing that they're pushing for a version of the game where you no longer feel the need to bring insurance against being camped, tunnelled, or slugged, because you have basekit options for it?
Ok. Where and what are the killer equivs? How do I stop 45 second hyperfocus + stakeout + toolbox gens? Or how do I stop someone from going into a hook deadzone/high spot with boil over and becoming impossible to get to a hook now? Or 8 second medkit heals? Or CoH heals?
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@Lyonic said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3200823#Comment_3200823
22 seconds with unbreakable - which is a meta perk anyway, so it will be used.
So tell me how you plan to down someone with 2 healthstates in 22 seconds?
b-b-bro just split pressure!!!! Abandon strong loops!! Find the weak link! Umm...you got .2 seconds off survivor sprint burst, all we got was 2 meta perks basekit, entitled much??
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yes, bringing unbreakable will halve the 45 second timer.
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You forgot spine chill and iron will!
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I don't think it's dead but I do think it's beyond hilarious that survivors screamed bloody murder about .2 and .3 second changes but demand more and more meta base perks. We now have 2 of the most popular survivor perks basekit. At this point they might as well just get it over with and make spine chill, iron will, dead hard all basekit too.
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Because it does literally nothing until you are fully infected and can be removed early via 12 total cleanses per game.
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Soul guard nerf, original boon auras stacking nerf for circle of healing, object of obsession nerf all imply that they are watching what swfs do and toning down the worst things that pop up. It's definitely not a regular thing though I would say.
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As another poster said that's not really an exploit. Something that would be bannable would be like abusing legions old infinite mend bug and then you going into multiple games to "test" it.
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This is because they have relaxed the MMR significantly since it was first released. It was "working" when high skill players were waiting a long time to find equally skilled players.
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Unless they heavily re-do their AI algorithm, abandon last gen consoles, or better optimize the general code then no, nemesis release had huge performance issues for older consoles.
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WoO is the only reason blindness is a semi serious/useful effect vs a slugging tool exclusively.
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Yes playing spirit getting across the map is easy, play trapper/pig/a regular m1 killer and going across the map for no reason rapidly loses its appeal. To be clear face camping is awful but based on how you rail against proxy camping I imagine the killer hanging out on the half of the map with the hook = "camping"
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The more active regression got dumpstered in 6.1.0(I don't think I've seen a single ruin), what exactly is your suggestion OP? 3 gens will always exist, unless you widen the maps by a very large degree and that will run counter to every single map redesign they have pushed out. The only other option is dumpstering the passive regression/kicking perks which I don't think you'll find much support for.
You could also just run hyperfocus + stakeout + toolbox and smash out one of those gens in 45 seconds when you notice your team is starting to build towards a 3 gen.
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If your team can't manage to pick up slugs when all 4 are alive at 5 gens the killer would have smashed your team anyways. You each have 2 * health states in these scenarios and assuming you can chase well and clock in at least 20 seconds each health state that's almost a min per survivor to get to a slug and pick them up. If they're slugging they also aren't making use of starstruck or anything else and can really just get value out of knockout and infectious. Is it boring and lame? 100% absolutely, but if you're going down in chase on the order of seconds with two health states your team was not in a good spot anyways
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Kind of a memey full end game build perk and requires a very certain scenario to shine(multiple survivors alive and injured) and almost is mandatory to run No way out and/or blood warden. When it procs its super fun but I would never take it in a serious build.