Carth
Carth
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- Carth
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Sure if the same penalty applies to survivors choosing to "dodge" games by dying on first hook if they don't like the killer/map/perks the killer is running. Two slightly different flavors of "Im not going to play vs this"
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@Gamall said:
So, killers continue to complain non-stop about DH.
BHVR releases a perk that encourages the use of other exhaustion perks except DH.
Killers demand its nerf to unusable perk.
Magic.
Put eruption back the way it was and now add a perk to let pop goes the weasel regress 100% of a gen once per game, would you like a situation like what I described or would you be unhappy eruption wasn't being touched and pop was getting power crept in an effort to be an equal choice?
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@Ripley said:
I like the killer, it seems to bring all the casual misogynists out of their hiding.
Yeah nevermind the well explained paragraphs in the OP detailing their issues with the killer, it has to be they hate women.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Killer Mains complain about too many DHs. BHVR releases a Perk which works with other Exhaustion-Perks and NOT with DH --> Also not good.
Sigh.
"In order to make eruption less appealing we have introduced a perk that makes the next pop goes the weasel regress 100% total progress on a gen, can only be used once a game."
I don't think survivor players would have liked the above way to "nerf" eruption. They are clearly trying to shift more people away from DH like you say, but I don't think power creeping every other perk is a good idea.
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Yes knight, trickster, and twins had awful reception on their PTBs. For different reasons, but this isn't the first killer that dropped and mostly negative feedback has been posted about them.
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Unstoppable force I think combos too well with certain things. I could run agitation/unstoppable force + starstruck + mad grit/unstoppable force+ awakened awareness.
1. Find and down survivor
2. Use awakened awareness plus starstruck and drop survivor #1 prior to 75% wiggle to down a second survivor with starstruck
3. Use awakened awareness with unstoppable force while carrying survivor #2 and mad grit to hit a third survivor
Do I think it's particularly strong? No, it has several counters,but it leans towards an extreme snowballing build that I think many survivors and BHVR would not like.
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I'm pretty sure you can block his knights with dead hard? As far as I know there's nothing special about their attacks that would make them immune to dead hard
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Tinkerer was dead long before the hud update. When it was converted to once per gen it became garbage.
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Sure if the same rule applies to exhaustion perks
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Agreed, it's unfortunate that CoH limits the other boons/I wish they played around with the range for the others.
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Current is bad and a way of saying "this perk turns off if you're doing too good/use it in the wrong place". BHVR clearly is making it one of their goals to reduce killer snowballing. You can see another one of their brilliant ideas to do so in the ruin and corrupt intervention redesigns that basically say "turns off the second you are doing ok/good".
I personally have two issues with this.
1)"your perk doesn't exist in certain scenarios" is really the best idea they could come up with? Not perk values tied to number of living survivors? Or game length? Or number of procs? Or anything decent? Just "the perk basically doesn't do anything" if the gen isn't at 50%+
2) where is this anti-snowball design on the survivor side? The games where survivors are good and for an m1 killer the first hook = ~3 gens done.
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The removed cooldown is so niche it's basically a non-change.
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New player experience is awful, tied only with Mobas in terms of how little you start with, how awful the grind is, and how many things you are going to have to learn by experiencing it first hand
As others have said, reducing the grind is probably number 1 as well some screens that make it far easier to understand how killer powers work, what perks can do what, what items are used for, and how add-ons impact powers and items
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@Shroompy said:
Honestly I think this perk will be fine as is. Sure they nuked it, but literally any logical change would of been a nuke with how strong it was
I see Eruption working on killers that can snowball really well like Oni, Billy or Dredge. Dredge I can imagine will thrive with it since his snowball potential comes from Nightfall, which makes one of the best snowballing perks in the game Infectious Fright not work. This also goes for any killer with a shorter TR.
Eruption will definitely still have its place in the meta, it just wont be nearly as oppressive or irritating
Ok so why was this approach not taken with DH or CoH, "extremely strong perks"? One of which has received 4 nerfs and is still a top tier perk pick and the other went from the #1 most picked survivor perk...to the #1 most picked survivor perk.
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You lose and stay at an MMR where you can do such antics. You're asking to be able to play un-optimally and still win which is a large ask especially if your opponents know how to play optimally and they aren't also goofing around/playing nice.
I recommend you play your fun enjoyable builds, playing a try hard build and only going for wins gets very boring and frustrating really fast in my opinion.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3342473#Comment_3342473
They also nerfed COH, DH and calm spirit. Yes, DH and COH are still top tier survivor perks, but you also have current top tier killer perks on your list.
Bhvr is not survivor sided and if people stopped making this ridiculous assumptions maybe they can not destroy eruption before live.
I bet most survivors would be ok with the perk keeping the flat 10% of regression, yes survivors complained about eruption, that perk was simply obnoxious, but most people also want the best for both roles and are not trying to sabotage the others.
Can we pls calm down and stop making weird posts like the predictions of the nerfs to PR, i seriously doubt PR is going to be complained and nerfed. Honestly current PR and jolt are probably the only good slowdown perks that i doubt most survivors would complain, especially after this meta.
Even with a flat 10% regression it would still be awful and niche. Eruption has been a garbage perk from the first day it was introduced and it's wild that in over 2 years these 3 variants are the best ideas that anyone can come up with. Either shockingly weak or overpowered.
PR and DMS was extremely complained about prior to eruption + cob taking center stage. Unless there are some other changes it's going to take the #1 spot of eruption + cob and based on historical trends going all the way back to OG ruin the most complained about/commonly encountered regression WILL be nerfed.
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So a perk that
* Requires a 1.8 second kick investment
* Requires survivors to be on the kicked gen during a down
* Can be dodged by swf on comms
* Requires high mobility/slugging to make use of
Should have a payoff of 5 seconds?
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Dear Lord I can already see the head on into 3* dead hard stun montages.
All seriousness I feel like it would make DH even stronger, unless it only worked within x meters of another survivor. In the current world of chasing a survivor and they dead hard to a pallet or the like they'll now just spin and 180 dead hard stun me point blank for 3 seconds and walk off?
The timing would be extremely odd and look kinda janky when you factor in latency as well, did my lunge hit you first or did your dead hard dash hit me first?
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@Xendritch said:
Oh if they're giving priority to killers instead of the survivor when it comes to the pallet then the perk is still kinda bad lol, it's not like you really get many opportunities to use it in the first place and resetting pallets can waste time if you do it too much so I don't see it becoming that much better if you can't be creative with it in chase.
It's going to be better in swf/resetting it if your teammate drops a pallet and the killer doesn't kick it but continues to chase them away. Agreed it's still about the exact same use if you're by yourself getting chased.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3341670#Comment_3341670
I get what people are saying about the entity blocker. It would certainly be more preferable than Incapacitated. But the issue with the debate around killer perks always comes down to how the scenario is framed. The community will *always* default to the scenario of a very average killer player using the perk against a high level survivor team.
Those games certainly do happen, but the devs also have to consider the flip-side of that scenario: a high level killer player with that perk. The problem that regression+lockout perks introduce is complete game stall in the hands of really good killer players who don't have issues downing players. If an entity blocker is added, it's not a meaningful nerf in any way, shape, or form in the hands of many killers. You'd still get all of your time back from the chase if you factor in the regression+block+other gen regressions.
By this logic every killer should move at 100% speed and have no perks or powers. If the argument is bad survivors can't win against a good killer if they have x perk, I have bad news as a good killer can accomplish that on a perkless trapper.
Same holds true for survivors if we are balancing down to bad/new players. What about a brand new nurse who doesn't have any perks and doesn't know how to use their power? Shouldn't they have a chance vs a good swf? Depip squad and survivor hardcore challenge are great examples of players limiting themselves on survivor and still absolutely demolishing dozens and dozens and dozens of killer players in blowout games.
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Don't worry, the effect is so bad it no longer matters if all 3 survivors get hit by it or not. If it has zero effect then 0 * solo team or 0 * swf team you still get zero. Add it to the pile with ruin/thana/pop/corrupt intervention/overcharge
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Over floods of rage/bbq/the litany of other aura reading perks that already exist? I do agree with you that 10+ seconds of aura reading is very powerful but is it worth the cost of having to use blinks/travel for x meters at 96% speed to kick gens to apply eruption? Compared to the other options that already exist? SWF can STILL use comms to completely avoid the secondary effect as well if they catch on that you're using it.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3340985#Comment_3340985
precisely. why would they give you a hex perk effect in a normal perk?
By this logic no regression perks outside of ruin should exist in the game nor should any exceed base regression rates as ruin exists and is a hex perk.
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@dinomazing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3340997#Comment_3340997
Your survivors really shouldn't be leading the chase. They can't hurt you. Their only ability is to run.
And you can either direct where they go as killer or take a health state from them if they don't follow your lead.
This isn't true at all. As a killer you can attempt to head off a survivor sure, and there's a few killers who can teleport ahead(typically to fixed locations...tvs, lockers, gens), dash forward quickly in a straight line, or have some other way of moving faster but there's exactly one killer who can truly cut off survivors at will and that's nurse. Everyone else the survivor 100% leads the chase as the TR + red stain gives a huge head start to the survivor. The tradeoff is due to the killers naturally higher move speed the killer will eventually catch up and some killers get to use their power to attempt to head off a survivor but the chasing is always the survivor leading(defined as picking a direction and moving in it - typically to a tile to begin looping or some other structure)
If we assume your statement is true that killers are the leaders I'd have to ask you to explain why zanshin isn't as popular as windows by a huge margin. If killers "lead" the chase then zanshin would be just as useful as windows is for survivors since you can lead them better. However this isn't the case as evidenced by perk useage rights in the past as well as third party tracking sites and the majority of people in this thread who all agree zanshin is bad.
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Boons are analogous to scourge hooks in that regard. No matter what you can only boon one totem and no matter what you only get four scourge hooks(ignoring monstrous shrine and basement). All equipped boons will be on the one booned totem and all equipped scourge perks will be on those hooks only.
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Let me ask you a survivor question OP. When you have a gen at 95% progress do you get off it to give the killer a chance to apply his regression perks? Or worry about if the killer is having fun? If the answer is no that would be dumb and inefficient and risk losing the game, that is exactly why killers tunnel/don't play 12 hook/don't keep all survivors alive until hook 9.
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@Eelanos said:
The wiggle system in general is such a waste of a mechanic.
There's hooks everywhere, so there's never enough distance to wiggle away. Generally I have enough time to carry survivors from corner to center of the map before they free themselves.
Hooks are literally everywhere, and scourge hooks aren't really spread out enough for the wiggle system to have any effect.
The times I've tried Boil Over it has done mostly nothing for me, with the only rare exceptions being a killer greeding a scourge hook after dropping off from a short height or some very specific places with no hooks nearby. Heck, I've gotten more value out of Flip-Flop the few instances I've gotten sluggled than any situation with Boil Over.
If it wasn't because it gives a small, almost laughable amount of points and the fact that prevents the incredibly odd backpacking killer from just running around with you on their shoulder, I really wouldn't try to wiggle at all. The system in its current state is so meaningless I think they should just get rid of it and automate the entire process.
You seem to think that wiggling off should be the norm/if the killer doesn't go to the closest hook you're guaranteed to escape. How would such a system work when another survivor body-blocks? Or two/three?
If the idea is "if one or more survivors gets in your way you lose a hook" I don't think such a system would even remotely last as swf can easily do this and so can solo with new hud updates.
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@legacycolt said:
Dead hard is needed against killers like nurse, spirit and blight. They would have to nerf killer powers too sadly.
Except they wouldn't. We just had a "not tit for tat!" With the survivor hud update.
If the intent of the 6.1.0 meta shakeup results in the #1 picked perk remaining the #1 picked perk then the shakeup failed horribly. Give DH the ruin/thana/CI treatment.
Regardless if you agree with nerfing it or not I think we can agree that the idea of balancing killer powers around a single survivor perk is really bad and shows signs of a deeper problem.
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Boil over does obscure nearby hooks. Heres the link to the perk : https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Boil_Over
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Are we back on the "Sprint Burst is secretly the best perk in the game and the survivor hive mind is just choosing to not leverage it just...because!" Copium of 6.1.0 before the DH remake details were dropped.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3331540#Comment_3331540
While I get what you're saying, 1.32m isn't 'nothing' either, especially since the blade wiping buff further means you're catching up sooner, even if that survivor has an immediately available pallet or window. Which you said, but shrugged off the extra 1.38m gained compared to before that patch. In a dead zone, both of those changes combine, and the survivor has 2.7m less of a lead than before the 6.1 patch.
And, for comparison, the 'for distance' portion of dead hard that was removed was at best 2.28m of distance, and that's rounding up. But that shows why just looking at 'oh, it's only .2 seconds difference' is misleading. The question is: is the potential for 2.5m of extra distance in nearly every chase valuable or not?
I'm always amused at how people downplay the 6.1 buff of doing nearly every common killer action 10% faster as though it's trivial and nearly meaningless. But I guarantee if we just reverted it back to the pre 6.1 values it would be panned as 'the worst nerfs ever'.
Except old dead hard was on demand not a static addition to all chases, it was always "+2 meters on demand at the drop of a finger on an e key". That's what made it powerful. If such a thing isn't a big deal what do you think about cou de grace being the exact same distance as old dead hard on a 30 second cooldown? I imagine most survivors would not be fans of such an ability despite it also "just being 2 meters!". I stiill argue the 10% is minor especially compared to the nerfs to thana/ruin/pop/ci. Would survivors be happy if we reverted the nerfs and made it so exhaustion perks don't work while all 4 survivors are still alive? That's essentially what they did with thana/ruin/CI.
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@ThanksForDaily said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328649#Comment_3328649
What about shorter pallet break, shorter hit recovery, survivors getting less distance after a hit, 2,5% instant regress after gen kick.
You suddenly forgot those things.
Sure let's talk about those values!
Shorter pallet break: .26 seconds faster
Survivors getting less distance when hit: .2 seconds shorter
Cooldown on hit: .3 seconds faster
Mini pop: 2.5% = .025 * 90 = 2.25 seconds of gen progress removed with a 1.8 second animation of kicking is bad. I have yet to see a single case where a gen is at 90%, it gets kicked, and the survivor player says "oh man I really shouldn't tap that gen...I might lose 2.25 seconds of progress!"
So fractions of seconds are super impactful and good right? Did that apply to base kit BT that was given to survivors as well? We went from the perk only providing 13 seconds of endurance to the base version lasting 10 seconds with a 7% haste and the buffed perk version lasting a staggering 20 seconds with haste, did STBFL/brutal strength(the most comparable perks on the killer side) get a buff on that level?
Being real, the only impactful 6.1.0 changes were the DH change and the +10 seconds to gens along with the eruption change. I would imagine any killer would happily trade any of the above insignificant values for old pop/ruin/CI/thana back. We can even try to explore and see how big of an impact some of the above are. Let's take a look at the .2 second sprint burst nerf and try to see how big of a physical meter distance it is
old sprint burst on hit: (4.0 * 1.65) * 2 = 13.2 meters gained from a hit
new sprint burst on hit: (4.0 * .2) + (4.0 * 1.65 * 1.8) = 11.88 meters gained from a hit
so the survivor will get 1.32 meters less than before, now this isn't accounting for the hit cooldown as well, but I promise it is just as minor as the sprint burst reduction. Am I saying that the changes did nothing? No, but I am saying that they also suddenly didn't impact every single chase in the game or have even a large impact on killers overall, using the math above I can say that unless you were within ~1.32 meters of a vault/pallet when you get hit while in chase from healthy -> down then the change didn't do anything.
Since all of these changes dropped at once we can't really isolate and point at any one thing being the cause of the kill rates increasing but if I had to guess a real cause it was the nerf to DH(50-80% perk useage across mid and high MMR survivors), extra 10 seconds on gens, and the eruption buff. I doubt it was really the 1.32 meter delta change in chase that suddenly made killers feel extremely strong when 6.1.0 dropped.
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Except this problem exists on many maps right out of the box and many many more cases can be added when a survivor is killed and permanently destroys certain hooks.
There shouldn't be "run to X spot if you are getting into a chase because the killer physically cannot hook you if you go down there and also we have baseline antislug + 100% proposed unbreakable so you'll pop up in 22 seconds with 0 aid from another survivor required" meaning the killer will need to play this game 60 * 4 / 22 = ~10 times before the survivor dies.
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45 second perma unbreakable with 0 way to modify the recovery timer is fine...Perma unbreakable at 22 seconds is on the too strong side in my opinion(especially if they decide to try and add future perks that decrease that time even more)
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328879#Comment_3328879
It should be added for generator sounds, at least.
Just like the TR indicator that's been proposed though, where do we stop? If its not fair for survivor players to not get a visual indicator that they are in the TR then surely the killer not being notified about gens noises and survivor steps/breathing/injured sounds need to be added as well. An indicator of "Kate steps -> this way" or "Bill stepping <-" etc.
Again, I don't actually want these features, but the argument that "the game needs to be accessible to all players!" Falls apart when discussing concrete examples like this. Because following it to its logical conclusion all sound cues need both an indicator of the sound and the source direction it came from. Obviously this has huge ramifications to the player base, as is the argument of "I cant see red blood and scratch marks, why cant I make them neon green/blue?" The answer is because giving players this info/knowledge kills all stealth play entirely.
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It shouldn't be added. Is it unfortunate and frustrating? Undoubtedly so, but to the OPS point where do we stop? Clearly, having sound queues as subtitles plus the direction the source sound came from would be fair for ALL players but does anyone really want stealth and the like to be effectively deleted from the game? I doubt it.
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Just like CoH fell out of the meta after 4 nerfs..wait...how about that big old dead hard nerf that took it from the #1 most used survivor perk to the #1 most used survivor perk
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@Entitled_survivor said:
DH was already massively nerfed
Massively? I'd love to hear your take on ruin/thanat/and pop then
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Survivor players lost their mind with the 6.1.0 update that gave killers fractions of seconds shaved off of actions and fractions of a second shaved off of survivor sprint burst. Pray tell, what exactly would be a 'suitable buff' for a killer due to solo getting bufffed to swf level of info? Everyone always does this hand wavey "buff solos to swf then buff killers to compensate!!" but I would love to know what exactly that entails outside of meaningless buffs similar to base pop taking off a measly 2.5% = .025 * 90 = 2.25 seconds worth of solo survivor time on a gen.
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Why did it ever get buffed in the first place with the beta feature?
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How is this any different from hooking a survivor by a 99'd gate due to no other hooks nearby and they escape 100% due to basekit BT.
It does feel bad/lame but that's just the nature of the game mechanics/perks at EGC. There are multiple scenarios on both sides where there is 0 way to win/do something about x.
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I was going to say Charlotte does lose collision but with you being the last survivor it doesn't really matter.
It does feel cheesy/bad but I do wonder does it feel any different/worse than the same situation with a trapper trapping both gates and you being the last survivor alive?
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@hastarkis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3326043#Comment_3326043
they did
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/SRKX2AEUHT9A/image.png
And seems like great skillchecks make killers sway 20% more based on new-50%-less norm lol so it should be smth like 60% of previous wiggle power.
Thanks! I was unaware of the number, the steam news article seems to be out of date/not in the same state as the official patch notes as they do not have a value.
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It should be making them wiggle more, that said they never specified by how much, however I would think you shouldn't expect it to be boil over levels of impact(Boil Over is currently 80%).
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If a killer is dedicating 50%+ of their loadout to auras you don't get to hard counter it with 25% of your loadout
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Backpack build - agitation, mad grit, awakened awareness, whatever you want(I like franklin's)
Aura reading - bbq, darkness revealed, lethal, whatever you want(really like franklin's but can also bring I'm all ears or another aura perk)
Healing skill checks - distressing presence, sloppy butcher, coulrophobia, whatever you want
I enjoy the above builds quite a bit, they also allow you to have some fun with survivors
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Imagine you are designing a system to match players against each other, you're going to very quickly find yourself in a problem area where if a player at a certain skill level has been waiting for awhile do you force that person to continue to wait or do you allow them to play with less/more skilled players?
All MMR systems face this issue and there is no one universally correct answer. DBD prioritizes queue times over truly fair matches(a truly "fair" system might have a top player waiting hours to find a match). The longer a person waits in queue the more likely a match that is not "fair" is to occur. Wether that is putting that player in a match that they are too skilled for or a match where they are not skilled enough.
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@Rudjohns said:
Everytime I bring a blindness build (The Third Seal) someone dies on hook because nobody went to save them
Blindness is fine as it is
By this logic every perk in the game is fine/borderline broken because you can play against bad players and see great results with it.
People who cannot see the giant huge hook bubble and cant remember where the hook bubble appeared/cannot path around the map in 120 seconds should not be reasons for perk balance
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Showcases how bad BHVR is at internally testing stuff, some other extremely fun examples of this.
* Soul guard + we'll make it + swf = impossible to down survivors stacking in a pile just healing each other up. BHVR had to nerf it by putting a cool down on soul guard endurance
* Initial CoH on PTB was allowed to stack with itself meaning 2 CoH close enough together allowed +200% healing. BHVR had to nerf it by removing boon ability to stack
* Healing in general being too stackable, this can be seen in the 6.1.0 'remake' of botany knowledge that reduces healing items effectiveness if you run it.
* Endurance in 6.1.0 PTB stacking allowing survivors to take 4+ hits before going down.
All of the above can be argued "it's too niche, they shouldn't have been touched", but based on the past, BHVR does (eventually) react to the ability for the survivor team to stack perks and items to pull off some silly scenarios. For what it's worth killers haven't really had an equivalent recently but I imagine we might see something done for gen kick perks in the same vein of it's too strong when its stacked
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Are you using any perks that make noise? I believe Leon's flashbang is an example of a perk that makes a noise when it is ready